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Thread: Sorry about that

  1. #26
    The Pan Spinal's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    You can kill the messenger if you like.

    If number8 complains that the user messages upset him, I only suggest a simple solution: Notify users early and often. If one does this, more often than not, negative response will disappear.

    Is this fair or rational? Dunno. But it's the nature of the beast. He might not have known what he was getting into when he signed up to be admin, but it is what it is.

    Also, I'd argue this site stop being "free" when that Facebook button went up & multiple ads appeared. *shrug*
    Nothing about the way number8 has handled the task indicates to me that he is anything less than capable and responsive. Indeed, I'm thankful that he does it at all. Because, as this minor incident shows, it's a pretty thankless job.

    Until you said something, I had forgotten that there were even ads on this site. It would be silly to make the argument that the site stopped being free because someone has clearly taken the least obtrusive action possible to help keep us from having to pay money.

    Again, I don't understand the tone. Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth.
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  2. #27
    - - - - - Irish's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Spinal (view post)
    Nothing about the way number8 has handled the task indicates to me that he is anything less than capable and responsive. Indeed, I'm thankful that he does it at all. Because, as this minor incident shows, it's a pretty thankless job.

    Until you said something, I had forgotten that there were even ads on this site. It would be silly to make the argument that the site stopped being free because someone has clearly taken the least obtrusive action possible to help keep us from having to pay money.

    Again, I don't understand the tone. Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth.
    What tone? All I am suggesting is better communication. Why is that idea so offensive to you?

    It doesn't have to be 8. This site has an over abundance of admins and mods. Any one of whom could toss out a heads up.

    Like it not, when one takes on the responsibility of a site like this, or any service, there's a certain implicit social contract. It might be perceived as shrill and awkward for a guy like me to point that out. But ignoring the fact doesn't make it go away.

    Also: You might have forgotten this site has ads, but Google, Facebook, and their associated networks haven't and never do. That kinda goes to the point.

  3. #28
    The Pan Spinal's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    What tone?
    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    He might not have known what he was getting into when he signed up to be admin, but it is what it is.
    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    Also, I'd argue this site stop being "free" when that Facebook button went up & multiple ads appeared. *shrug*
    This tone.
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  4. #29
    - - - - - Irish's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Spinal (view post)
    This tone.
    Say again? I'm a dummy, Spinal, but I'm not seeing a "tone." I'm only trying to acknowledge, repeatedly, that, yes, admin jobs suck and always will. They are thankless in multiple ways. Sometimes, people don't know that when they sign up for them & later find themselves stuck. And then burnt out.

    But if you want people to respect that job, for whatever it is, you've got to acknowledge it's a two way street.

    The ad thing is a pet peeve. When I suggested a whole bunch of changes to the site way back when, people misread what I wrote & a few people became hypercritical and nasty because they thought I was advocating advertising.

    Then, curiously, ads went up on the site. Those same people demurred or said nothing. Now here's you, defending those ads. Frankly, that reversal leaves me a bit mystified.

    But you can't claim that the site is "free," and beyond that I'd argue that "free" doesn't imply some kind of blanket virtue.

  5. #30
    Administrator Ezee E's Avatar
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    I think there's been a total of four or five outages in Match Cut since number8 and I have taken over. None of which lasted more then 72 hours, and all have been addressed within a day on twitter. Some quicker then others. I will not put Match Cut over my job, even if it means taking ten seconds out of it. I addressed it the first time this week, the second time, I completely spaced it out when I received an e-mail from vB.

    I'm not sure of this "social contract" that you discussed Irish, but it seems that only you and Duke are the upset members here about this, and even Duke isn't that upset, he just wants to be able to post. While the site has ads and facebook connection, they both require $0 from you, and are also optional to have on.

    So really, I don't feel any compassion here Irish.

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  6. #31
    Replacing Luck Since 1984 Dukefrukem's Avatar
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    Well beyond the ad argument, we all donated to the site because we love it and we love coming here. So yeh, it's not that free.

    But to Irish's point, I think 8 now understands why Raiders didn't want to run the site anymore.

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  7. #32
    Moderator Dead & Messed Up's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    You can kill the messenger if you like.
    This only works as a phrase if you're delivering a message from someone else, which you've said you aren't ("I'll only speak for myself here").

  8. #33
    - - - - - Irish's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Dead & Messed Up (view post)
    This only works as a phrase if you're delivering a message from someone else, which you've said you aren't ("I'll only speak for myself here").
    Well, think about that for a second. Do you really want to parse semantics in English euphemisms with me while I'm in a peevish, argumentative mood?


  9. #34
    Ain't that just the way EyesWideOpen's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Dukefrukem (view post)

    But to Irish's point, I think 8 now understands why Raiders didn't want to run the site anymore.
    Because of people like Irish.
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  10. #35
    Montage, s'il vous plait? Raiders's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting EyesWideOpen (view post)
    Because of people like Irish.
    To be fair, he's only playing devil's advocate here, which as I am sure he will admit is something he enjoys quite a bit. And that's not why. The site would have been down for days with the way I felt about doing it a year ago. I didn't want to have to think about it anymore. It was a "me thing."

    But seriously guys, it is a free site and you are entitled to nothing. "Social contract" is a nice way of saying you decided you were owed something.
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  11. #36
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    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)

    But you can't claim that the site is "free," and beyond that I'd argue that "free" doesn't imply some kind of blanket virtue.
    Do you notice that when you use the word, you put quotation marks around it? I am not. I am not paying to use the site. This is a fact. It is not a claim.
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  12. #37
    - - - - - Irish's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Spinal (view post)
    Do you notice that when you use the word, you put quotation marks around it? I am not. I am not paying to use the site. This is a fact. It is not a claim.
    The quotes are there because "free" doesn't mean the same as "no cost." The fact that you, and others, don't understand this is troubling but not surprising. (Because outside tech & advertising, very few people do).

    To Duke's point, people donated ~$400 to keep this site running. So: Not "free" in any context. And not a gift horse. More of a paid ride.

    Disclaimer: I did not donate. This might make what I'm saying shrill but it doesn't make me wrong.

  13. #38
    Montage, s'il vous plait? Raiders's Avatar
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    Wikipedia is a free service. I have also donated to Wikipedia. This is not a contradiction. There is no compulsory payment to enjoy this site.
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  14. #39
    good for health Skitch's Avatar
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    My biggest complaint when the site goes down is my mild panic that it won't come back or I've been banned...or that everyone moved the site and didn't tell me so they wouldn't have to ban my annoying ass.

    Seriously don't go anywhere, I love you guys.

  15. #40
    - - - - - Irish's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Raiders (view post)
    There is no compulsory payment to enjoy this site.
    Wikipedia also doesn't have ads or Facebook Connect. That goes to what I was saying how "free" doesn't mean "no cost." (As an aside, I also don't understand why "free" is some kind of virtue that inures anyone from criticism or suggestion).

    Also: What's the collective excuse to the people that donated hard cash?

  16. #41
    Screenwriter Lazlo's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    Wikipedia also doesn't have ads or Facebook Connect. That goes to what I was saying how "free" doesn't mean "no cost." (As an aside, I also don't understand why "free" is some kind of virtue that inures anyone from criticism or suggestion).

    Also: What's the collective excuse to the people that donated hard cash?
    It's not a business where service is guaranteed. We paid because we saw it as a way to help keep a site we enjoy going, not because we were purchasing a product or a service. It's more like a social club where there are optional dues. No one freaks out if a meeting gets unexpectedly cancelled once in a while. 8 and EeezE aren't employees of the site or its users. They're nice enough to help keep the thing running. It's a hobby, not a burdensome responsibility. It's pretty shitty to give them shit.
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  17. #42
    Replacing Luck Since 1984 Dukefrukem's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Skitch (view post)
    My biggest complaint when the site goes down is my mild panic that it won't come back
    This, which is exactly why Irish is saying it would be nice if there was some kind of announcement during the downtime. A tweet is not difficult. I see Eric and Arya do it all day.

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  18. #43
    Montage, s'il vous plait? Raiders's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    Wikipedia also doesn't have ads or Facebook Connect. That goes to what I was saying how "free" doesn't mean "no cost." (As an aside, I also don't understand why "free" is some kind of virtue that inures anyone from criticism or suggestion).
    You can turn both off. Not to mention you are seriously twisting the meaning of "cost."

    Also: What's the collective excuse to the people that donated hard cash?
    No excuse. This site is volunteerism. If you can't deal with the down-time reasonably, find a different site. People donated to help the site carry-on. They were not given any guarantee of up-time or have any reason to expect people to drop what they are doing on their birthday to fix this. 98% of the people here get this.
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  19. #44
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    Quote Quoting Dukefrukem (view post)
    This, which is exactly why Irish is saying it would be nice if there was some kind of announcement during the downtime. A tweet is not difficult. I see Eric and Arya do it all day.
    Have a little faith that they're good dudes and will sort it out. Life goes on.
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  20. #45
    - - - - - Irish's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Lazlo (view post)
    It's not a business where service is guaranteed. We paid because we saw it as a way to help keep a site we enjoy going, not because we were purchasing a product or a service. It's more like a social club where there are optional dues. No one freaks out if a meeting gets unexpectedly cancelled once in a while. 8 and EeezE aren't employees of the site or its users. They're nice enough to help keep the thing running. It's a hobby, not a burdensome responsibility. It's pretty shitty to give them shit.
    Pretty shitty, eh? Curious reaction.

    Let's pretend you, me, and Skitch are friends. Every week the three of us go to Sunday brunch, and each week a different guy pays the entire tab. This week, you and I had to cancel, but nobody told Skitch (which is a shame, because this week he was getting a "free" lunch). Skitch ends up sitting alone in a restaurant wondering what the hell. Sorry, Skitch!

    Now, if he called you later and asked where you were & why we neglected to tell him lunch was off, would your response be anywhere near the realm of "Don't give me shit"?

    Why do you think what I'm proposing -- more transparency, better communication -- is bad for anyone here?

  21. #46
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    Quote Quoting Raiders (view post)
    You can turn both off. Not to mention you are seriously twisting the meaning of "cost."
    The bulk of the Internet economy is built right on top of that twist. Google, Facebook, and Twitter make all their revenue from it (curiously, all "free" services).

    More importantly: You can't shut it off easily on the desktop & you can't shut it off at all on mobile devices.

    They were not given any guarantee of up-time or have any reason to expect people to drop what they are doing on their birthday to fix this. 98% of the people here get this.
    No where in any of my posts about this did I express the idea that 8 needed to drop what he was doing and offer an immediate fix, or did I expect any guarantee of uptime.

    All I asked was, "Why did it take so long for anyone to acknowledge the problem?" And suggest that if you want to curb negative responses, then inform your users early and often.

    That's it. That was the whole message.

  22. #47
    Screenwriter Lazlo's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    Pretty shitty, eh? Curious reaction.

    Let's pretend you, me, and Skitch are friends. Every week the three of us go to Sunday brunch, and each week a different guy pays the entire tab. This week, you and I had to cancel, but nobody told Skitch (which is a shame, because this week he was getting a "free" lunch). Skitch ends up sitting alone in a restaurant wondering what the hell. Sorry, Skitch!

    Now, if he called you later and asked where you were & why we neglected to tell him lunch was off, would your response be anywhere near the realm of "Don't give me shit"?

    Why do you think what I'm proposing -- more transparency, better communication -- is bad for anyone here?
    Well, seeing as no one had to go to any physical place and friends in that situation would be able to text or call each other, the analogy doesn't really line up.

    It wouldn't be a bad thing for the Twitter account to be updated, but expecting these guys to drop everything and address it before all the other real responsibilities in their lives is a bit much. The site was down. That was unfortunate. But it came back. No one died or lost money, or got fired. Again, we're not running a business here. Of course I'd prefer the site to be up, which it is most of the time. But if it's down, I figure they're working on it and it will come back in due time. I'm thankful they want to spend their free time dealing with this stuff at all. Sorry they aren't meeting your performance standards, but in the end they don't owe you anything and they're doing an overall great job.
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  23. #48
    Montage, s'il vous plait? Raiders's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    The bulk of the Internet economy is built right on top of that twist. Google, Facebook, and Twitter make all their revenue from it (curiously, all "free" services).
    They are for-profit corporations with shareholders. Not really comparable.
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  24. #49
    good for health Skitch's Avatar
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    With all due respect to Duke and Irish, Skitch would like it known that at no point did he imply or state any complaint about the outage or those who repair said outages. - Skitch's lawyers

  25. #50
    - - - - - Irish's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Lazlo (view post)
    Well, seeing as no one had to go to any physical place and friends in that situation would be able to text or call each other, the analogy doesn't really line up.
    It's similar in that in both situations, there's an implied social contract.

    expecting these guys to drop everything and address it before all the other real responsibilities in their lives is a bit much.
    Seriously, where do you get this stuff from? I never even came close to implying anything like this.

    Quote Quoting Raiders (view post)
    They are for-profit corporations with shareholders. Not really comparable.
    They all started out as freely offered side projects, and nobody's day job[1].

    Ignoring your user base is never a good idea. Skitch's post is a case in point. At the very least, doing so tends to undermine confidence over time.

    [1] To the literal minded: No, I'm not actually suggesting that Match Cut is in that league, wants to be, or ever could be.

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