Chrisnu Reads the Bible

[Milky Joe]

Why does it matter?

I like hyperbole.

Doesn't matter. Just grates on me sometimes. Maybe because my mom does it: every movie she sees is "the best movie I've ever seen in my life." It's like, how can you... well, nevermind. Doesn't matter.

[megladon8]

Doesn't matter. Just grates on me sometimes. Maybe because my mom does it: every movie she sees is "the best movie I've ever seen in my life." It's like, how can you... well, nevermind. Doesn't matter.

I find it annoying as well, but I blame it (partly) on the way I was taught writing in elementary school.

We were taught to use AS MANY ADJECTIVES AND ADVERBS AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE!!!

This is why I use words like "really" a lot, despite it almost never being necessary. After nearly 10 years of never writing a noun or verb without a modifier, it's a hard habit to drop.

[Sycophant]

Chrisnu, I had come to be convinced you look like Billy-Bob Thornton. I'm very interested in these. Will check out later. Hope to respond with some kind of response that'll avoid the standard pitfalls of Match Cut Religious Discussion.

[chrisnu]

Here is an example of why the Old Testament/Tanakh should not be read by children:

Yet she increased her whorings, remembering the days of her youth, when she played the whore in the land of Egypt and lusted after her paramours there, whose members were like those of donkeys, and whose emission was like that of stallions. Thus you longed for the lewdness of your youth, when the Egyptians fondled your bosom and caressed your young breasts.

The word of the Lord. Praise be to God.

I should have another video up tonight.

[bac0n]

Holy shit, i never knew it was actually you doing those videos. I thought you were posting videos of some guy going through the bible cuz you found them interesting.

FWIW, I find them interesting too. Quite.

[Mysterious Dude]

It's been so long since I actually believed in Christianity, it might as well be Voodoo now.

[chrisnu]

Regarding the Nephilim, and Biblical Retconning

[chrisnu]

As promised:

Balaam

[chrisnu]

I received a response on FB from a former church acquaintance regarding the second video on the Nephilim, and I can understand the point of view. I expected such:

For there to be retroactive continuity, doesn't it assume that the (A)author was inconsistent and needed to patch up the holes afterward? If that is the premise then I have no response.

If it can be assumed that there are no inconsistencies in the canon then it's not that far-fetched for Gen 6 to have repeated.

Ultimately anything not explicitly stated in the canon is speculation.

But, that almost exactly fits the point I was trying to make. I let that go, and tried to rephrase. My response:

I think that the question the evidence raises is this: can non-contradiction be a claim upon which speculation is created in order to justify it? The fans and writers of The X-Files and Star Trek make the same claim. Folks have to answer that question for themselves, based upon the evidence we have.

*shrugs*

[Mara]

Regarding the Nephilim, and Biblical Retconning

I use the KJV of the Bible almost exclusively, and it doesn't appear to use the word "Nephilim," but instead simply defines the word as "giant." So, for fun, I looked up in the LDS study helps what they said about giants.

Unusually large, tall persons, apparently having great physical strength. They are mentioned both before the flood (Gen. 6: 4; Moses 8: 18) and after (Num. 13: 33; Deut. 2: 10-12, 20; Deut. 3: 11-13; Deut. 9: 2; Josh. 15: 8; Josh. 18: 16). Raphah of Gath was said to be the father of several giants of whom Goliath was one (1 Sam. 17: 4-7; 2 Sam. 21: 16-22; 1 Chr. 20: 6). A 12-fingered, 12-toed giant is also mentioned as one of the sons. The giants in Palestine were also known as Ankims, Emins, and Zamzummins.

There's no discussion of how these giants existed both before and after the flood, or if the word was simply a generic one used to describe very tall persons who may or may not be descended from the same genetic line. Interesting.

By the by, in the tv show Torchwood they have a little memory-erasing pill they slip to people whenever it's convenient to the plot. They call the drug "retcon." Har har har.

[Mara]

As promised:

Balaam

Very intriguing.

The story of Balaam has always interested me for multiple reasons. Mostly because it's clear we're not getting the full story. Given that he is respected by Balak, and that his name begins with a B and has the double As in it, Balaam is almost assuredly from the people who worshipped Ba'al and not Elohim. There is no evidence that Balaam is an Israelite or a Levite (which would give him the authority to offer sacrifices.)

So, if Balaam has no authority, why is God speaking to him at all? Why the divine manifestations and angels?

Obviously, the story was written down as a faith-promoting anecdote for the Israelites, because it proves that a man cannot curse God's chosen people, even if he tries. So, one would assume that Balaam is a sort of hero figure, since he blesses Israel thrice.

But later mentions of Balaam are not complimentary.

We are informed of Balaam's death in Numbers 31:8 when the Israelites go after the Midianites:

And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.

So, they killed all the men. But Moses specifically wants them to kill the women, too:

14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.

15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?

16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord.

17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

So there's this whole story that we're missing. At some point, Balaam apparently counseled the women of Midian to tempt the men into sin (presumably sexual sin) which caused a plague among the Israelites.

This story, which we are never told directly, is cited several more times.

Peter has an interesting view of the donkey story in 2:14-15:

...cursed children:

15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man’s voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

Jude cites Balaam's sin as being priestcraft (of prophesying for money) in Jude 1:11:

Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, cand perished in the gainsaying of Core.

In Revelations, John talks about the plague story again, so one may assume it still existed in some form in New Testament times, even though it doesn't anymore. He provides a couple more details: (Rev. 2:14)

But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

So many questions.

[chrisnu]

I use the KJV of the Bible almost exclusively, and it doesn't appear to use the word "Nephilim," but instead simply defines the word as "giant." So, for fun, I looked up in the LDS study helps what they said about giants.

There's no discussion of how these giants existed both before and after the flood, or if the word was simply a generic one used to describe very tall persons who may or may not be descended from the same genetic line. Interesting.

That's true. I think that the KJV translated the Hebrew word nephilim as giants because they already read ahead into Numbers and Deuteronomy, as I did, and realized to whom the word was referring. Other translations followed in kind, while others leave the word untranslated. Some folks have tried to say that Genesis 6:4 is referring to the commingling of the descendents of Seth and Cain, but I think that's extrapolation which is not followed by the evidence.

[chrisnu]

The only first-hand account of Midianite women enticing the Israelites is in Numbers 25. This confused me because the passage first talks about Israelite men having sex with Moabite women, but that abruptly changes to a Midianite woman in verse 6, and the chapter ends with God commanded the Israelites to exterminate the Midianites.

[chrisnu]

I finished reading Numbers last night. The video on Numbers 31 is going to get animated. Seriously, how is this rationalized?

[chrisnu]

Mosaic Vows, and Jephthah

[BuffaloWilder]

Sigh.

[chrisnu]

Sigh.

Was it something I did?

[chrisnu]

Numbers 31. (Part I)

[BuffaloWilder]

Was it something I did?

You're not really bringing anything new to the discussion of the moral worth of these old fables and laws, and that kind of thing - it's just that same kind of self-conscious "gee, aren't these old scientific laws and morals wacky and antiquated?" that you can see all over Youtube, and elsewhere. It's really annoying.

This goes both ways, too - if you're nonreligious and looking to make a legitimate argument for or against certain doctrines, then something like this isn't going to really help accomplish that.

So, yeah.

[BuffaloWilder]

Also, on Paul -

- there's a burgeoning movement popping up here and there among theologians that is disregarding Paul entirely; John H. Yoger's stuff seems to be a big reference point.

[chrisnu]

I apologize that they are annoying. I suppose I've been quite unaware of the sheltered and toxic environment I have been in. I've mostly making these videos from the perspective of asking questions of those who believe the Bible to be the inerrant word of God.

Would Christianity even have existed without Paul? Certainly not what's considered to be "orthodox" today.

[chrisnu]

Numbers 31. (Part II)

[BuffaloWilder]

...so, coming from that perspective, what is this going to change, exactly?

I'm sure most educated Christians acknowledge some of the Old School barbarism of the Old Testament; and, there are many, many, many rationalizations for it - ranging from the OT acting mainly as a cultural documentation of fables and laws and all of that good stuff of many groups of people over many, many different periods of time, all the way down to 'well, god mellowed out because he had a kid,' said in all seriousness.

So, what I'm asking is, what's new here?

[chrisnu]

So, what I'm asking is, what's new here?

Probably nothing. I certainly don't claim to have any original thoughts. Maybe I'll be able to find another person who isn't educated about the Bible they believe in (and I probably fall into that group) to look beyond their unquestionable dogma and see what's actually in there.

[Mara]

So, what I'm asking is, what's new here?

Color me deeply confused.

Are the film reviews up in FDT bringing new and never-before-seen insight to films that have been watched thousands of times before? Are the reactions to books in this forum bringing up and clarifying points that have baffled scholars for generations? Are we, as Match-Cutters, solving the philosophical and literary problems of our generation?

Chrisnu is posting his reactions to a fascinating and deeply influential literary/philosophical/spiritual work that most people are too lazy to read all the way through. I consider that an admirable endeavor.

Your little comments, on the other hand, aren't enriching the conversation much.