HBO's A Game of Thrones

[Winston*]

If you're looking for quality of prose in fantasy, you should look to Mervyn Peake. An absolute genius.

[Qrazy]

If you're looking for quality of prose in fantasy, you should look to Mervyn Peake. An absolute genius.

Will do, never heard of him. Gormenghast series I suppose?

[Winston*]

Will do, never heard of him. Gormenghast series I suppose?

Yeah, those are his only really significant prose works. Note that the first book is called Titus Groan and the second is Gormenghast.

[number8]

Oh, I've long come to terms with the fact that I have to look past some pretty sexist and racist subtext to enjoy this show. You guys should have noticed that in season one.

[ledfloyd]

i don't feel like it's terribly sexist. in fact one of my favorite aspects of the show is strong women struggling to thrive in a sexist world. arya, dany, etc. just because the vast majority of the characters are sexist doesn't mean the work itself is. racism is more of an issue, the portrayal of the dothraki, etc.

in regards to thrones seeming more 'adult' than rings. i don't know it's so much the sex and violence as the nuanced morals. who is good and who is evil is pretty clearly delineated in tolkein's work, which makes it a bit less interesting to me. here aside from the saintly (ned) and the demonic (joffrey) there are a lot of gradations. this week we even saw the effect robb's crusade is having on the peasantry, painting his actions in an unflattering light. i find that to be a more adult perspective on the world than the 'these guys over here are perfect and these other guys are beyond redemption.'

[number8]

i don't feel like it's terribly sexist. in fact one of my favorite aspects of the show is strong women struggling to thrive in a sexist world. arya, dany, etc. just because the vast majority of the characters are sexist doesn't mean the work itself is. racism is more of an issue, the portrayal of the dothraki, etc.

That's the thing. Arya and Daenerys are always the two used as rebuttals, and while it's hard to argue that they're not awesome female characters, it's still pretty disparaging when you look at the larger context and realize how they're good characters.

Arya is a tomboy who rejects being a lady, preferring things like swordplay and fights, and that's why we love her. Out of the two Stark girls, the butch one is awesome, while the more femme, ladylike girl happens to be the useless cowardly one. It's not exactly a subtle message.

Meanwhile, Daenerys is a white lady who tames and civilizes an entire race of savage brown-skinned rapists using her vagina, and hides behind the strongest alpha male to get her way. In the first season, pretty much everything she asserts herself to is followed by "because my husband is Khal Drogo!" The second season with her as the Khaleesi with no Khal is definitely an improvement because now she gets to show real leadership as the last episode demonstrated, but as you point out, it's still kinda racist.

Lady Stark is pretty cool, though.

[slqrick]

They're doing a better job of conveying the "sex as a weapon" angle in some more obvious ways this season, but I think they work. Or at least have to work on some level now that the cat's out of the bag with the Melisandre smoke monster child. I also like what they're doing with the Tyrell sister/Renly's queen.

[Qrazy]

i don't feel like it's terribly sexist. in fact one of my favorite aspects of the show is strong women struggling to thrive in a sexist world. arya, dany, etc. just because the vast majority of the characters are sexist doesn't mean the work itself is. racism is more of an issue, the portrayal of the dothraki, etc.

in regards to thrones seeming more 'adult' than rings. i don't know it's so much the sex and violence as the nuanced morals. who is good and who is evil is pretty clearly delineated in tolkein's work, which makes it a bit less interesting to me. here aside from the saintly (ned) and the demonic (joffrey) there are a lot of gradations. this week we even saw the effect robb's crusade is having on the peasantry, painting his actions in an unflattering light. i find that to be a more adult perspective on the world than the 'these guys over here are perfect and these other guys are beyond redemption.'

Ehh, there's plenty of moral greyness in Rings. Boromir. Gollum. Denethor. And plenty of other 'good' characters perform immoral acts over the course of the series. There is an ultimate evil namely Sauron but A Song of Ice and Fire seems to be building to something like that as well anyway.

There are characters in Thrones that people root for just as much as Rings (primarily the Starks but a few others as well).

[ledfloyd]

That's the thing. Arya and Daenerys are always the two used as rebuttals, and while it's hard to argue that they're not awesome female characters, it's still pretty disparaging when you look at the larger context and realize how they're good characters.

Arya is a tomboy who rejects being a lady, preferring things like swordplay and fights, and that's why we love her. Out of the two Stark girls, the butch one is awesome, while the more femme, ladylike girl happens to be the useless cowardly one. It's not exactly a subtle message.

Meanwhile, Daenerys is a white lady who tames and civilizes an entire race of savage brown-skinned rapists using her vagina, and hides behind the strongest alpha male to get her way. In the first season, pretty much everything she asserts herself to is followed by "because my husband is Khal Drogo!" The second season with her as the Khaleesi with no Khal is definitely an improvement because now she gets to show real leadership as the last episode demonstrated, but as you point out, it's still kinda racist.

Lady Stark is pretty cool, though.

i don't really see sansa as useless or cowardly. i feel like she's making the best of an impossible situation. likewise i feel like dany used sex to gain her advantage as it's the only thing she had that she could use.

they're living in a society where men aren't going to take them seriously unless they use sex to deceive them or they assert themselves with violence. i admire the fact that dany and arya are willing to go there. that they aren't satisfied with the status quo. i'm even engaged by sansa's struggling to get by in her own way.

Ehh, there's plenty of moral greyness in Rings. Boromir. Gollum. Denethor. And plenty of other 'good' characters perform immoral acts over the course of the series. There is an ultimate evil namely Sauron but A Song of Ice and Fire seems to be building to something like that as well anyway.

There are characters in Thrones that people root for just as much as Rings (primarily the Starks but a few others as well).

there are, but i still feel thrones is far more concerned with those grey areas. and for the record i've only read the first book of thrones so i'm basing this assumption primarily on the tv series.

[Henry Gale]

I liked the actress they chose for Asha Greyjoy but Lily Allen would have been the greatest casting coup ever

[youtube]CJhYdGXepE4[/youtube]

I only JUST put together that he is THAT Alfie. I even saw this post and it didn't click. So yeah, a missed opportunity indeed. If this show is so infatuated with incest, they might as well commit to it for real.

And tonight's episode was very good, per usual.

[Wryan]

I love Catelyn Stark something awul. She's wonderful. And let's not forget Brienne. I like her a ton and want to see more of her every episode.

[Lucky]

I love Catelyn Stark something awul. She's wonderful. And let's not forget Brienne. I like her a ton and want to see more of her every episode.

If you forced me to pick, that would have been my favorite scene as well. I was also incredibly impressed with the Carth (sp?) sets and Dany's story.

[Qrazy]

If you forced me to pick, that would have been my favorite scene as well. I was also incredibly impressed with the Carth (sp?) sets and Dany's story.

Qarth.

I thought they actually bungled Renly's shadow encounter a bit. I didn't like the dramatic pacing of that scene. The later exchange between Brienne and Catelyn was good though.

[Wryan]

"And do you believe them?"
"No my Lord."
*smiles*
"...any man can be killed."
*glares*

[number8]

"And do you believe them?"
"No my Lord."
*smiles*
"...any man can be killed."
*glares*

Easily my favorite scene of the episode. That 3-second death stare between Arya and Tywin says so much.

[ledfloyd]

Easily my favorite scene of the episode. That 3-second death stare between Arya and Tywin says so much.

yeah, the close-up is so overused in television as a medium that i was taken aback by how much weight it was given in that scene. that stare tywin gives her will haunt me in my dreams.

[Irish]

My biggest fear now is that this show has too many characters, which means you end up getting maybe 4-5 minutes of your favorite chopped up into a series of 10 second scenes.

I'm also troubled by how much this show telegraphs its punches. Did we really need the masked woman in Qarth coming up to Ser Jorah and announcing HI HERE'S SOME FORESHADOWING FOR THE AUDIENCE.

Or the black councilman guy taking pains to point out -- for really no reason at all -- that Ser Jorah is in love with Daenarys? The follow up scene is wonderful, where he inadvertently lets slip how he feels, but all the impact is ruined because the moment was pre-announced.

That and Martin wouldn't know real drama if it came up and bit him on the ass. I love the cast, the production values, and the world but I'm not sure I've ever encountered a genre piece where the characters talk so much and do so little.

[Qrazy]

I'm also troubled by how much this show telegraphs its punches. Did we really need the masked woman in Qarth coming up to Ser Jorah and announcing HI HERE'S SOME FORESHADOWING FOR THE AUDIENCE.

She comes back later, but yeah this is a problem with Martin also, not the show really.

That and Martin wouldn't know real drama if it came up and bit him on the ass. I love the cast, the production values, and the world but I'm not sure I've ever encountered a genre piece where the characters talk so much and do so little.

I agree.

[number8]

Isn't that the main reason the books got popular, though? The fact that it's a fantasy series with magic and dragons where they're sidelined to make way for political schemings and negotiations. I think that's also part of why there was never any interest in a movie adaptation, but it works for TV in a savage-west-wing kinda way.

[[ETM]]

I'd rather watch GoT characters talking for hours than at least three other shows' worth of "doing".

[Qrazy]

Isn't that the main reason the books got popular, though? The fact that it's a fantasy series with magic and dragons where they're sidelined to make way for political schemings and negotiations. I think that's also part of why there was never any interest in a movie adaptation, but it works for TV in a savage-west-wing kinda way.

That's not the issue, this isn't about magic vs realism. For example in a film like Le Trou there is a great deal of political scheming going on but there's very little dialogue and the characters spend most of their time actually doing things in order to escape from their prison. In Thrones there's a lot of standing around and talking at each other. Some of it is essential, a lot of it is extraneous and could be better spent building character in other ways. When characters just shut the fuck up for a moment that's some of the best content really... wolf dream, Tywin/Arya death stare (granted you needed some dialouge to build to that), etc. To be honest I'm a little disappointed the filmmakers didn't capitalize on visually realizing more of Bran's dreams. I think it would have been sick to see a dream where Winterfell is actually drowned by the sea. They sure as shit better show the house of the undying sequence.

[Qrazy]

I'd rather watch GoT characters talking for hours than at least three other shows' worth of "doing".

Granted it is much better than the vast majority of other shows.

[Winston*]

I've read the first three or four books (depending on how you count Storm of Swords), and I am surprised at how little I remember. When that shadow birthing scene happened, I was like "I feel I should recall this".

Maybe it's that the rug-pulling structure of the novel puts the emphasis on what's going to happen next rather than lingering on what just happened, or maybe I just suck at reading.

[Irish]

Isn't that the main reason the books got popular, though? The fact that it's a fantasy series with magic and dragons where they're sidelined to make way for political schemings and negotiations. I think that's also part of why there was never any interest in a movie adaptation, but it works for TV in a savage-west-wing kinda way.

"Savage West Wing" is a great way of framing it.

I'm not sure about the books. The subject matter is a 'fantasy of manners' of the type that had gotten popular in the 80s. The prose is awkward in a lot of places, but still evocative and a far cut above most fantasy novels (which is still a low, low bar).

The biggest difference to me between this & other soaps is that it doesn't really have multiple subplots running that are resolved one after the other, like a West Wing or Six Feet Under or Sopranos.

The entire thing is about the war, and the struggle for the throne & every character is focused exclusively on that. Martin has set up a 'Lost' problem very early on -- he can't ever resolve the central problem because if he does, the story must end & there goes a lot of money & a lot of jobs.

That's at odds with the audience's interest, because they're only watching to see how that main plot resolves.

Stuff like Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time had the exact same issue, and that didn't turn out so well for the fans.

[[ETM]]

That's at odds with the audience's interest, because they're only watching to see how that main plot resolves.

This is where you're wrong. While the ending of LOST made or broke that show for a lot of us, simply because it was built upon that mystery, no matter how good some of the stuff in between was, Game of Thrones is more of a... transitional story. The inevitability of the end of the era and of what is to come makes the overall tone and setting fascinatingly tense. I know already that most of the characters will die before it's over, and that things won't last, but it doesn't make the now of the show any less interesting or satisfying.