Mad Men

[megladon8]

I will bet anyone $10 that Jack hit that.

Is this even a question?

I bet Jack has had a foursome with Jessica Biel, Jessica Alba and Halle Berry.

Probably did cocaine off their butts, too.

[megladon8]

Cool article/interview. You watch the show?

No, but I really want to get into it.

I was just supremely disappointed when I found out it's a network TV show. I know that sounds silly...I was just hoping for something gritty, foul-mouthed and mature like "The Wire".

[amberlita]

J.J. - ...When I read the script and saw that she decided to cheat on her husband after all that has happened to her, I was kind of confused. So I asked Matthew Weiner [the creator of Mad Men] about that scene—I said, “What is she doing? Is she getting revenge?”—and he said, “Stop thinking about anything. It could be that the world is falling apart or maybe she’s just horny. She’s pregnant and she’s falling apart, so she sleeps with a guy. You don’t have to think about it.”

This is what I love about the show. There is not a single action or exchange or look that is explained. This is why the characters are so organic and vibrantly human - cause we may understand them a bit but we don't understand them at all, just like most people you meet in life that you can spend an eternity trying to figure out their complexities but in reality even they don't understand why they do the things they do or say the things they say. That's why the show is so poetic to me.

It's comforting to know that Weiner and the writers aren't trying to write a mystery to solve. They aren't being purposefully cryptic to try and force you to figure out why they made Don sleep with so-and-so or why the little girl stole the $5 (or better yet, why she gave it back). They are just painting characters on the television for interpretation.

So why did Peggy give that speech to her secretary? Was she trying to muscle around a weaker woman cause of her new empowerment? Was she trying to convince herself that she has her shit together when she's really a house of cards? There is no right or wrong answer. I suspect not even Peggy (or the actress) knows the answer to that question.

I don't think there is a single other show that is doing this. It must be wonderful to be an actor on this show, to have that sort of freedom to play your character without footnotes.

[Cult]

Tonight's episode was good. I hope Peggy doesn't leave Sterling Cooper. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't do that--but maybe they will, and it will focus on the rivalry between the two companies. Who knows. As long as she doesn't get any less screen time...

[Mara]

Holy crap. Just caught up. Was anyone else completely shocked?

[Silencio]

Holy crap. Just caught up. Was anyone else completely shocked?

I don't think anyone could've even remotely guessed that would happen. Hilarious, though. Mostly because it's just such a huge WTF for the show.

[Mara]

The scene when the janitors were washing the blood off the glass was just about as surreal as this show has ever been. And the quips! Roger, I love you.

[Acapelli]

worth it for the jokes afterward alone

[amberlita]

I don't think anyone could've even remotely guessed that would happen. Hilarious, though. Mostly because it's just such a huge WTF for the show.

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Show Spoiler

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[amberlita]

Definately a great episode. The ending was, I agree, a powerfully quiet moment. Who knew the old bat had it in him to muscle Don Draper?

There's a sense of wise temperance there that's both mature and commendable. Don isn't petulant or overly sullen about losing out on the promotion. Instead, I think he's taking the sting of disappointment as a lesson. That is, the world has a callous sense of humor, and you sort of need to humble yourself before its capriciousness or become its stupid victim.

I'm wondering if this latest episode has shed any light on how you view the last one as described above. While I disagreed then that he wasn't overly sullen about losing London it's doubly so now after this episode that was like a big Don temper tantrum. What looks like wise temperance is really quietly childish fits. Sterling Cooper tries to force him to sign a contract so he snaps at Peggy. Betty grows a backbone so Don just stomps off. Don's unhappy with his lot in life so he escapes to a hotel with some hitchhikers. Cooper makes him sign the contract and in a huff he punishes Roger Sterling. The last thing I expect to see Don Draper do after any of this, is take a lesson.

Side note: I love Don's new secretary. I love the head-cock she gives him when he meets with Hilton and tells her to "Hold all my calls". She gives him this perfect look as if to say, "Please, who do you think I am? Lois?" I guess I like that up to this point she appears to just be a really great secretary and nothing more submersive. It's refreshing.

[amberlita]

Oh then I'd disagree about his "maturation" after his disappointment the previous episode as well. Don's never been one to lose his cool so I'm not quite sure what we could have expected other than what we got - he stayed calm but his anger manifested as a passive aggressive attitude (the first time he snapped at Peggy) and blatant pouting the entire episode, even going so far as to grumpily insult the champagne at Joan's going away party.

I think you're right in that he got over it. But I don't think he did it maturely by accepting it, reflecting inwardly and moving on. He was still bitchy right up until the moment he got a new shiny prize flashed in front of him in the shape of Conrad Hilton's new account. He got to be on top again. He got to be the winner, the hero. He got to be desired. I don't think there was any moment of clarity for Don. He simply got distracted by something new to pursue and obtain.

Also, what about that conversation between Don and the teacher? It seemed like she was hiding her lust behind some ethical rectitude. She probably wanted him more than he wanted her.

Yeah she kinda creeped me out. I actually was a little offended on Don's behalf because it was a pretty innocent conversation and she jumped to conclusions ("oh you must want me bad"). Seems pretty self-centered and yet not entirely baseless since we have the benefit of knowing he has been desiring her.

[amberlita]

Yeah, this is a valid possibility. Yeah, it could just be the cleansing waters of success. He's back on top, ego wise, so it's easy to placate the sting of his disappointment. Hmm... but the wisdom he offered is nonetheless legitimate and how can we know for sure that he isn't earnestly subscribing to it himself? Otherwise, why not take Connie's offer? I suppose there is that sense of dignified restraint, restraint for the sake of ego ("I'm better than this"). But surely that restraint is commendable given how nebulous his intentions were (we're free to interpret it how we like) and how he just had an awesome promotion plucked away from him. I mean, he didn't act how others would have acted in that situation. There's something commendable there, and that would be the action itself, but you're right, the motivations behind that action could be purely selfish and egotistical. I conflated the indisputable goodness of the action with his intentions and I can't exactly do that convincingly considering I don't know what Don was actually thinking then and there.

Ah okay, I see what you're driving at now. Don does seem to have an uncanny ability to assess a situation for something more than what is going on at the surface and tempered is certainly an accurate description of his demeanor on nearly evertyhing. It was a great piece of advice indeed. Atleast in the short run you may be right in that he was heeding his own advice and perhaps the lesson to be learned from losing London wasn't even apparent to him until he spoke those words to Hilton. Even if he did have some clarity, I wonder how long it would last. As I mentioned earlier, Don is not the kind of guy who appears to learn from his mistakes when it means satisfying a need he has. All of season 2 his family and his marriage are about to slip through his fingers becasue of his philandering ways and first thing we get in this season's first episode is Don again cheating on his wife.

Yeah, I'm wondering where that's going to go. At first I thought it was too sensational an angle and that the writers wouldn't press it, but now I'm thinking that I could be wrong.

It's definately a slower burn then we are used to with the women he eyes. If she is supposed to represent something at this point then her symbolism is lost on me so I can only assume she is meant to be signficant later this season in some way. I suspect Weiner will subvert expectation and Don will wind up not pursuing her, for whatever reason.

[Mara]

Some excellent discussion. I'm going to be completely shallow for a moment:

Holy cats, Peggy's red-and-cream ensemble was cute.

And I want Joan back... now.

But this episode was solid and enlightening. I love the non-linear storytelling and the slowly-growing seeds. This show does "impending doom" beautifully.

[Acapelli]

Don's unhappy with his lot in life so he escapes to a hotel with some hitchhikers. Cooper makes him sign the contract and in a huff he punishes Roger Sterling.

while i agree with everything else you said, don was entirely justified in calling out roger to bertram. going behind his back to betty about the contract was a total dick move

[amberlita]

while i agree with everything else you said, don was entirely justified in calling out roger to bertram. going behind his back to betty about the contract was a total dick move

I agree to a point. Dick move? Check. Deserved to get called out? Most definately. Realistic that he can have no further contact with Roger Sterling for the next 3 years? Not at all, and Don would have known that. His lashing out against Roger was an emotionally exaggerated response, like the first time I got caught sneaking out of the house as a teenager and my Mom told me "I can't trust you ever again". She was just pissed and wanted to hurt me. It seemed an uncharacteristically blunt move by Don who is far more sinister than that (like in Season 1 getting Roger liquor'd and seashell'd up to take the stairs and vomit in front of the entire office as payback for hitting on Betty). Don was on full tilt and someone needed to feel his wrath.

Not that I feel bad for Roger. And hey, it's better than Don taking another opportunity to piss in Peggy's cornflakes instead.

[Ivan Drago]

So is this show really that good or just the best thing to watch on a shitty network?

[amberlita]

I think this is all pretty accurate. What's interesting about this instance is that Don is usually so deliberate when it comes to his words and convictions. This may have been a bit of cranky petulance coming to the surface, but does that mean that Don will realize the impracticality of his request and accept the inevitable (that is, that he will have to communicate with Roger sometime)? Can you really see him backing down from his statement? I suppose he might have to now that the contract is signed and all but if Don truly doesn't want contact with Roger, then he's probably going to at least attempt to tenaciously pursue that desire.

It was definitely an interesting bomb for him to drop, especially when you think about how feasible it may or may not be. The Don and Roger tension is definitely ratcheting up this season and I'm quite enjoying it. That rivalry has a good pedigree, too, so it doesn't seem at all random.

Also, what does Roger do for the company anyway? Is he as irrelevant as Putnam, Powell and Lowe's name snub suggested? Maybe it wouldn't be all that hard to avoid him, after all.

I dunno. I just can't imagine Don huffing out of a conference room if he walks in and sees Roger there. I could see him telling his secretary to say he isn't in if he comes around, but think of all the executive meetings they've had already this season and while Roger may be pretty worthless at all of them (though to be honest, I'm not sure what Cooper contributes either) he is still present at all of them and it'd be pretty cheap to conveniently just have Roger be absent from those meetings from now on.

Here's to hoping his vocal declaration really turns into a silent war cause their so-called "tiff" this season wasn't very impressive. I don't know how Cooper spotted it in the first place.

[amberlita]

Oh and I love Breaking Bad. I can't say one is better than the other. I'm just glad they don't run at the same time. Whenever each show is on I'm convinced I'm watching the best show on television.

[Ivan Drago]

This strikes me as a strange question. I mean, I never judged Mad Men solely within the context of AMC's output as if AMC were the only network available to me or anyone else. I mean, people who hate FOX News don't go ahead and say it's the best news station that FOX has to offer so it is thereby indisputably worth watching. I highly doubt this is the sort of logic that any fan (or dissenter) of the show subscribes to. Nor have I ever heard of anyone criticizing or praising this show by saying 'Oh, it's not great, but it's the best thing on AMC so I watch it each and every week'. If people say it's good, it's likely because it's actually good and just 'good for AMC'.

Oh ok.

But honestly, when your network shows Catwoman and Jaws: The Revenge on primetime, there's at least a slight problem.

[amberlita]

Really? I'm finding the rivalry pretty compelling, myself. It's not overblown or too sensational yet but it's definitely intriguing. Mostly because it's interesting to think about why Don hates Roger. Perhaps it has to do with privacy. That is, Roger flippantly (and repeatedly) stepping beyond the stringent boundaries that Don has put up. First, Roger learned about Don and Betty's separation from Jane. So, the stringent divide between work and home was compromised thanks to Roger and Jane's clandestine romance. Then he used that knowledge to put Don at ease in the bar, going on to quote his passing comment as part of the justification for leaving Mona. Mona reprimands Don, and he quickly realizes that he's been a pawn in one of Roger's self-aggrandizing games. He's thereby been implicated in the destruction of another family (the man has enough guilt as it is!)

Then there are the other reasons that might be fueling Don's vehement dislike: such as Roger's season one pass at Betty and the way he keeps ostentatiously flaunting his affected stance of 'happiness' with Jane. After all, Don and him were both at the same crossroad and Roger took the road that Don rejected. Don may be secretly green with envy. He sees his own desires, his tamed id, in Roger, and perhaps he desperately wants to be above that. In that sense, his judgmental stance may be a form of catharsis for him. Rejecting Roger may be like rejecting the worst parts of himself. Perhaps that's easier than turning those critical skills on himself. Or a part of him truly believes that, for all of his philandering, family is not something you should so carelessly leave behind (at least not with Roger's distastefully blithe conviction, anyway). Don did it once and it's still a source of heavy conflict for him after all these years, and his eager return to Betty at the end of season 2 proves that he's not quite so willing to throw away family again (yet).

Bingo, that's my theory too. The spark of Don's disapproval seemed to start when Roger decided to leave Mona for his secretary and has only worsened as he's seen Roger indulge his every whim. I think Don's realized just how little he has in common with Roger and yeah, might even be a little jealous too. Don is a man who secretly suffers and carries a legion of secrets - discovering that someone else has a secret only endears that person to Don more, like Peggy or Sal. He respects that and I think now that Don isn't able to share the "unhappily married perpetually philandering husband" role with Roger, there's nothing to tie them together besides booze and cigarettes. He can't even connect on a professional level like he does with Joan, both of them being the masters of their respective crafts. Roger is just a useless id.

Oh, and I didn't mean to imply that I want to do away with their rivalry completely. Just that I'd prefer kind of a quiet open war (like Don purposefully humiliating Roger in Season 1) rather than an extended silent treatment.

[Mara]

True. Don's revenge in season 1 was brilliant.

I just rewatched this episode with a friend, whom I introduced to the show and she's making her way through season 1. That episode is completely stunning. I had forgotten how many interesting storylines play out in that one hour.

[[ETM]]

I wish the various season discussions were somehow separated. I have just finished S2, but I don't want to be spoiled for S3.

[[ETM]]

We can all probably spoiler tag the S3 discussions from here on out until you're caught up.

Nah, that would be too much to ask. I'll just get up to speed and read the previous pages. I just wish I could have been involved. Thanks, though.

[[ETM]]

A caught up with it quicker than I thought. I'll be reading over the comments in more detail and formulate some thoughts of my own.

[number8]

Sesame Street spoof