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Thread: Mad Men

  1. #26
    Second star to the right [ETM]'s Avatar
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    There's truth in the Deadwood argument...

  2. #27
    neurotic subjectivist B-side's Avatar
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    I think Mad Men utilizes a certain detached aesthetic that lends itself to a better scrutiny of its events. The 2nd season dwells less on the misogyny and seems to take that aspect more in stride. I didn't even notice the lack of seatbelts. I don't think the show interrupts its flow for any hammering home of ideas and decor. One of the big aspects of the show is showing just how similar it is to now. The war, the misogyny, the racial issues, the corporatizing of America, etc. It's all contrasted so perfectly with now. Discussions of teenagers not drinking coffee contrasted with the booming income of places like Starbuck's. Discussions of pushing sexual boundaries in advertising contrasted with how virtually every commercial or ad nowadays containing some sort of sexuality. The 60s birthed so much of our current issues, and making the show now seems perfect in the face of what is going to be a huge turning point for America.

    I don't agree that it's technically boring either. I've seen some interesting shots. My favorite things they've done have been the match-cuts. It's nothing revolutionary or even great, but those match-cuts were cool. I noticed the smoking a lot in the first season. Literally, every scene someone was smoking, and there wasn't a single person that didn't smoke. But back to what I was saying earlier, contrast that with the ever-increasing population of smokers nowadays. Then there's the homosexuality aspect. The show hints at Salvatore being gay and in the 2nd season they give him the light in an episode and show him uncomfortably shrugging off homophobia. It's rarely, if ever, melodramatic and the show is always played with a sort of calm, cool and detached demeanor. It can lend itself to feeling cold, but it never really feels like it's dragging its feet.
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  3. #28
    I'm in the milk... Mara's Avatar
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    I think the second season took the misogyny and racheted it up to a disturbing level.

    Joan:

    [
    ]

    ...while in contrast Betty

    [
    ]
    ...and the milk's in me.

  4. #29
    The Pan Qrazy's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Brightside (view post)
    I don't agree that it's technically boring either. I've seen some interesting shots. My favorite things they've done have been the match-cuts. It's nothing revolutionary or even great, but those match-cuts were cool. I noticed the smoking a lot in the first season. Literally, every scene someone was smoking, and there wasn't a single person that didn't smoke. But back to what I was saying earlier, contrast that with the ever-increasing population of smokers nowadays. Then there's the homosexuality aspect. The show hints at Salvatore being gay and in the 2nd season they give him the light in an episode and show him uncomfortably shrugging off homophobia. It's rarely, if ever, melodramatic and the show is always played with a sort of calm, cool and detached demeanor. It can lend itself to feeling cold, but it never really feels like it's dragging its feet.
    Ahh thanks for reminding me, that's another example of something that was bludgeoned home. In the first or second episode of season one Salvatore is given a couple of these "I'm a homosexual!" lines. I think there were about three such lines in the episode to really remind the viewer in case they didn't get it the first two times.
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  5. #30
    A Bonerfied Classic Derek's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Mara (view post)
    I think the second season took the misogyny and racheted it up to a disturbing level.

    Joan:

    [
    ]

    ...while in contrast Betty

    [
    ]
    Aren't both examples there perhaps realistic examples of situations that women might have gone through at the time? Is showing a secretary being slapped in the butt by her boss and putting up with it automatically mysoginistic even if it likely happened in that type of work environment at the time? You seem to be looking for an unrealistic level of female empowerment when I think the show provides a fine balance between that a somewhat accurate representation of what they had to put up with to succeed back then.

    I can, however, see Qrazy's complaint about it being sexist in its lingering on women's hips, legs and asses. It usually seems to be providing a POV of how the men view them, but I can understand how someone would find the amount of screentime dedicated to Christina Hendricks' ass problematic. Not that I do, but I can understand.

  6. #31
    I'm in the milk... Mara's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Derek (view post)
    Aren't both examples there perhaps realistic examples of situations that women might have gone through at the time?
    You misunderstand-- I'm not complaining. I found both of these plot points convincing and heart-breaking. I was saying I don't think that the second season is ignoring misogyny.
    ...and the milk's in me.

  7. #32
    A Bonerfied Classic Derek's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting [ETM] (view post)
    There's truth in the Deadwood argument...
    No, there's not. I lied.

  8. #33
    A Bonerfied Classic Derek's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Mara (view post)
    You misunderstand-- I'm not complaining. I found both of these plot points convincing and heart-breaking. I was saying I don't think that the second season is ignoring misogyny.
    Oh good! I got too used to the nitpicking in this thread. Betty and Joan's storylines in Season 2 are beautifully conceived and yes, quite heart-breaking, although Peggy's is the best.

  9. #34
    Too much responsibility Kurosawa Fan's Avatar
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    To me, who has seen both shows, your argument doesn't work Derek. Deadwood integrates the time period with the setting of its show flawlessly. It doesn't feel the need to point out the differences, or to call them into focus. When you wake up, you have to take a piss. Everyone does. Bill takes a piss in a pot in the corner because that's how things are done.

    In the case of Mad Men, they call attention to these differences. When Draper's wife has a breakdown and almost (or not almost, I can't remember) crashes the car, the kids are not only unbuckled, they're jumping around the car from front to back seat. When a kid is running like crazy around his house, he has a plastic bag over his head, and the mom only mentions the running. These things seem to only exist to show you how different the time period is to our own, not because they are a natural part of the storytelling. The mysogyny in the workplace is natural (annoying, but natural). It makes sense.

    The fact that several of us, even those who went on to enjoy the show, have noticed and been bothered by this, while I've never heard anyone complain about the way the time period is portrayed in Deadwood outside of whether those characters would really curse like they do (which is the opposite of what we're arguing; that they're changing the past rather than taking the time to point out its differences), or whether some of those words even existed in the common American vernacular, seems to suggest there's something to our perspective. That you didn't notice this, or that it didn't bother you, and you're able to continue loving the show is great. It's annoying to me.

  10. #35
    A Bonerfied Classic Derek's Avatar
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    It's not there's the two examples you mentioned aren't valid. It's that you and Qrazy (and perhaps others) make it sound like they occur frequently throughout every episode. The two examples you mentioned are 5 seconds each in a 42-minute episode, which while worth bringing up as a weaknesss, seems a bit too small to essentially dismiss an entire series (or not watch it).

  11. #36
    Too much responsibility Kurosawa Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Derek (view post)
    It's not there's the two examples you mentioned aren't valid. It's that you and Qrazy (and perhaps others) make it sound like they occur frequently throughout every episode. The two examples you mentioned are 5 seconds each in a 42-minute episode, which while worth bringing up as a weaknesss, seems a bit too small to essentially dismiss an entire series (or not watch it).
    That's not why I stopped watching. As I said, I wasn't interested in the office politics, nor was I much interested in any of the plotlines presented in the first three (or four, not sure) episodes. There was nothing that grabbed me, and when paired with those annoyances I gave up. I wasn't seriously considering coming back anyway, but to hear that those occurrences continue to happen even deeper into the series is all I needed to hear to keep me away.

  12. #37
    The Pan Qrazy's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Derek (view post)
    It's not there's the two examples you mentioned aren't valid. It's that you and Qrazy (and perhaps others) make it sound like they occur frequently throughout every episode. The two examples you mentioned are 5 seconds each in a 42-minute episode, which while worth bringing up as a weaknesss, seems a bit too small to essentially dismiss an entire series (or not watch it).
    I feel that there are a large number of those instance but also I sort of find the writing beyond those instances to be ham fisted such as the Salvatore bit I pointed out. But unlike KF I find many of the misogyny instances as problematic as the plastic bag, seatbelts, etc.

    "Don Draper: I'm not going to let a woman talk to me like that!"

    "Roger: Have we hired any Jews?
    Don Draper: Not on my watch!"

    "Salvatore Romano: [replying to Dr. Guttman's statement about smoking and a death wish] So we're supposed to believe that people are living one way and secretly thinking the exact opposite? That's ridiculous."

    "Roger: I want the Chinamen out of the building by lunchtime."

    ---

    All this being said I didn't utterly hate the show. I found it picked up a bit around the third or fourth episode and it involved me enough to keep me watching for a season.
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  13. #38
    Too much responsibility Kurosawa Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Qrazy (view post)
    I feel that there are a large number of those instance but also I sort of find the writing beyond those instances to be ham fisted such as the Salvatore bit I pointed out. But unlike KF I find many of the misogyny instances as problematic as the plastic bag, seatbelts, etc.
    Whoa, whoa, whoa. Don't exclude me from this. I had a very limited exposure to the mysogyny, as well as everything else on the show. I just found that in the first couple episodes it served a purpose on the show and was more naturally ingrained in the fabric of the setting. But it was certainly off-putting and played a part in my decision to stop watching.

  14. #39
    Second star to the right [ETM]'s Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Derek (view post)
    No, there's not. I lied.
    Bastard.

  15. #40
    A Bonerfied Classic Derek's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Qrazy (view post)
    "Don Draper: I'm not going to let a woman talk to me like that!"

    "Roger: Have we hired any Jews?
    Don Draper: Not on my watch!"

    "Salvatore Romano: [replying to Dr. Guttman's statement about smoking and a death wish] So we're supposed to believe that people are living one way and secretly thinking the exact opposite? That's ridiculous."

    "Roger: I want the Chinamen out of the building by lunchtime."
    Other than these being despicable things said by character's who lived in a very different era than ours, what is wrong with these lines in the context of the show? It certainly doesn't excuse these statements or the characters racism/xenophobia/homophobia. Do you really think people didn't talk like that or does it simply offend your fragile little mind like all the cursing in Deadwood?

  16. #41
    Zeeba Neighba Hugh_Grant's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Derek (view post)
    Other than these being despicable things said by character's who lived in a very different era than ours, what is wrong with these lines in the context of the show?
    I don't want to speak for Qrazy, but my problem is that those lines are emblematic of the show's affectations. Everything seems so artificial and heavy-handed, so I can't be arsed to care.

    YMMV, of course.

  17. #42
    The Pan Qrazy's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Derek (view post)
    Other than these being despicable things said by character's who lived in a very different era than ours, what is wrong with these lines in the context of the show? It certainly doesn't excuse these statements or the characters racism/xenophobia/homophobia. Do you really think people didn't talk like that or does it simply offend your fragile little mind like all the cursing in Deadwood?
    I think I've already explained this fairly coherently. The lines aren't asides or casual occurrences they're like... 'No but seriously guys, I'm really a racist. In case you didn't follow.'

    The cursing in Deadwood is a different but similar problem. I simply found it became redundant, but it's never belabored.

    ---

    But you and others really love the show so I'm not here to drag it through the muck, I just never did end up explaining what I disliked about it when I watched it earlier. Now that I have carry on with the enjoyment.

    I guess my favorite parts are the small character moments... for instance when his wife briefly feels kinship with the divorcee or stuff with the owner of the firm.
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  18. #43
    A Bonerfied Classic Derek's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Qrazy (view post)
    I think I've already explained this fairly coherently. The lines aren't asides or casual occurrences they're like... 'No but seriously guys, I'm really a racist. In case you didn't follow.'

    The cursing in Deadwood is a different but similar problem. I simply found it became redundant, but it's never belabored.
    Ok, those lines struck me as realistically representing the prevailing attitudes of the times and things I imagine actual ad execs would have said behind closed doors all the time. But TEHO.

  19. #44
    The Pan Qrazy's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Kurosawa Fan (view post)
    Whoa, whoa, whoa. Don't exclude me from this. I had a very limited exposure to the mysogyny, as well as everything else on the show. I just found that in the first couple episodes it served a purpose on the show and was more naturally ingrained in the fabric of the setting. But it was certainly off-putting and played a part in my decision to stop watching.
    Fair, sorry about that.
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  20. #45
    The Pan Qrazy's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Derek (view post)
    Ok, those lines struck me as realistically representing the prevailing attitudes of the times and things I imagine actual ad execs would have said behind closed doors all the time. But TEHO.
    You guys need to stop with the acronyms.

    Well for instance I wouldn't have been bothered by the scene if they'd done the chinaman bit and then that was that... there's a Chinaman in my office! That's mildly racist and demonstrative of their attitudes... but then there has to be an 'Out of the office by noon' line. That's what bothers me.

    Or for instance... 'Have we hired any Jews?' (/incredulous) without the follow-up line.
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  21. #46
    It's all in the caffeine EvilShoe's Avatar
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  22. #47
    Piss off, ghost! number8's Avatar
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    I don't find these criticisms valid.
    Quote Quoting Donald Glover
    I was actually just reading about Matt Damon and he’s like, ‘There’s a culture of outrage.’ I’m like, ‘Well, they have a reason to be outraged.’ I think it’s a lot of dudes just being scared. They’re like, ‘What if I did something and I didn’t realize it?’ I’m like, ‘Deal with it.’
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  23. #48
    The Pan Qrazy's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting number8 (view post)
    I don't find these criticisms valid.
    Well you're wrong.
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  24. #49
    Too much responsibility Kurosawa Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting number8 (view post)
    I don't find these criticisms valid.
    Congrats.

  25. #50
    Piss off, ghost! number8's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Qrazy (view post)
    Well you're wrong.
    Probably. Because I never even noticed the kids thing. I don't remember any scene with a plastic bag. And when the wife told the kids to put on their seatbelts, my mind wasn't "Haha, they don't wear seatbelts," but it was, "Oh, she's shaking and telling the kids to buckle up. She's going to crash, isn't she?"

    As for the sexism, I didn't think much of it, because I don't think the misogyny displayed is that archaic. Most of what the men engage in on the show are the same type of sexual harassment still going on today. In fact, I think it's pretty cool that they're showing the early forms of women's sexual liberation. That's what I noticed, not the sexism.

    Barring all that, I'm enjoying the show.

    It pays to be obtuse.
    Quote Quoting Donald Glover
    I was actually just reading about Matt Damon and he’s like, ‘There’s a culture of outrage.’ I’m like, ‘Well, they have a reason to be outraged.’ I think it’s a lot of dudes just being scared. They’re like, ‘What if I did something and I didn’t realize it?’ I’m like, ‘Deal with it.’
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