Sangre, cuchillos, y tetas --- Horror Film Discussion

[megladon8]

Did anyone else see The Last Exorcism?

[Dukefrukem]

I've been whoring up my netflix lately so I haven't been the movies in a bit.

[Philosophe_rouge]

Did anyone else see The Last Exorcism?

I did. I'm quite fond of it. Except the ending, not even the direction they take as much as the half-assed execution.

Speaking of "found footage" films, also rewatched Cloverfield and Blair Witch. I didn't see either of them in theatres when they were initially released, something I regret, because I feel as though they would really benefit from an audience experiencing them for the first time with little knowledge of their style or what they are really about, Blair Witch in particular.

I've never been particularly fond of Cloverfield (this is my second viewing). At the hear of my dislike for the film are very flimsy characters. Though this is more about concept then character growth, the silly motivations for the character's actions and reactions really sell it short. Not to mention that most down-time is filled with inane chatter. The cameraman especially is ridiculously obnoxious, and his superficial concerns at the height of chaos.

The film does evoke a special brand of 21st century post-september 11th quite well. A lot of it is very obviously lifted from images that were ingrained in our mind, especially associated with that day. They work on that basis, as it is difficult to be emotionally distanced from such traumatic images and memories. I am not sure if this is clever or exploitive; I'm leaning towards the latter, if only, because they are very obvious and lack any kind of internal commentary on our relationship with them... well except for the whole experiencing the event through a camera. This is explored in other films though, even Blair Witch, though this is the first time it is really working with a real event. Taking that into account, it's a pretty shallow work.

Cloverfield still has some great scenes. I still love the subway attack and what follows, especially relating to Lizzy Caplan's character. At the same time though, I'm not sure if it works for this film. Though probably the most obvious about it's ties to September 11th, I'm not sure it's even the best horror to touch on those notions. Even something like 28 Weeks Later, at least in it's imagery, has a stronger sense of paranoia and politics in it's composition.

I think Blair Witch really stands the test of time better. There are a lot of similarly annoying touches, but overall I think it is far stronger. I've seen it three or four times at this point, and though the scares become less... scary, I can't help appreciating the construction of the Blair Witch mythos within the universe of the film.

A lot of the horror and buzz about this movie's technique is related to the fact that we don't actually SEE anything. This is most obvious on a surface level, but I think it is underrated in how it is handled via the script. Early on there is a montage of people discussing what they heard about the Blair Witch. Some stories seem like tangents, relating to the town's history: the story of the child murderer and the massacre of the initial settlers by the Amerindians. They are however integrated into the filmmaker's experience in the woods.

This contributes to the confusion they experience, though I'm not sure they are aware of that. It is never clear if the horror has one source or many. Is it just a man? Or is it an overriding supernatural force? The latter seems to have more ground, and that is surprisingly more frightening in this case. Whatever is in control clearly has immense power, one that is beyond normal comprehension.

This also works in the exploration and deconstruction of legend and myth. Multiple, sometimes contradicting, storylines coming together to create an incomplete picture that works solely to inspire fear and unease. So much of the real world is rationalized through this force. It doesn't matter whether or not it's real, the blair witch is an explanation for why Mary is crazy and why that man murdered those children.

Conceptually though, psychologically the Blair Witch representing our desire for answers is underscored by the idea that she may be real. Human monsters are often the most terrifying and irrational kind of monsters, but somehow in this film, the Blair Witch represents an almost Lovecraftian horror... something overwhelming and incomprehensible.

I am going around in circles at this point.

[megladon8]

I found the character of Cotton Marcus genuinely intriguing. His rather slimey profession was made, well, somewhat understandable, and I thought he was rather sympathetic and likable considering.

Similar to The Exorcist and its character of Damien Karras, Cotton Marcus' crisis of faith was the most interesting aspect of the film.

But then it went all Rosemary's Baby at the end, and I really resented what felt like a cheap gimmick to have the film end with a (literal) bang. It betrayed everything that had come before, and seemed to think it was much more clever than it was.

And the film was, frankly, quite boring. The first half-hour of developing Cotton Marcus as a character was very intriguing. But it kind of starts to go downhill once they get to the house and begin with the first exorcism.

Ashley's plight was a lot more interesting when the film was ambiguous as to whether or not there was anything supernatural occurring. Which is, again, a big part of why the ending sucked so much.

[Philosophe_rouge]

I found the character of Cotton Marcus genuinely intriguing. His rather slimey profession was made, well, somewhat understandable, and I thought he was rather sympathetic and likable considering.

Similar to The Exorcist and its character of Damien Karras, Cotton Marcus' crisis of faith was the most interesting aspect of the film.

But then it went all Rosemary's Baby at the end, and I really resented what felt like a cheap gimmick to have the film end with a (literal) bang. It betrayed everything that had come before, and seemed to think it was much more clever than it was.

And the film was, frankly, quite boring. The first half-hour of developing Cotton Marcus as a character was very intriguing. But it kind of starts to go downhill once they get to the house and begin with the first exorcism.

Ashley's plight was a lot more interesting when the film was ambiguous as to whether or not there was anything supernatural occurring. Which is, again, a big part of why the ending sucked so much.

I liked it a lot more then you did. We at least agree on Cotton Marcus, who is extremely fascinating, a brilliant performance. I never found it boring, I thought the comedy worked slightly better then the horror though, still had me jumping a few times in terror.

My problem with the ending:

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Not so much what direction they take it in, I like those freak-out endings like here, Rosemary's Baby and House of the Devil. At this point, it's actually more of a risk. I think the problem is though, it feels so rushed. They throw it on as almost an afterthought. Even that doesn't bother me nearly as much the execution. It went too blair witch when before the filmmaking was relatively restrained. The involvement of the camera people irked me a bit too. I thought the rest of the film looked good, the compositions were more nuanced then you usually get in fake documentaries, and for that reason when they go for the running in the woods with the camera pointed to the ground it feels cheap and uninteresting.

]

I think whether or not Ashley is possessed, her evolution is disturbing. People who think they are possessed is terrifying, but so is the idea that possession can be real. I don't think horror that points to the idea that evil exists only within us, or that reality is always more frightening is true, or even the most effective. Regardless, she is meek, quiet and sweet... the fact that something, internal or external, is corrupting her is really disturbing.

[megladon8]

I liked it a lot more then you did. We at least agree on Cotton Marcus, who is extremely fascinating, a brilliant performance. I never found it boring, I thought the comedy worked slightly better then the horror though, still had me jumping a few times in terror.

I was actually surprised that the movie was merely 100 minutes long. I honestly felt like I had been sitting there for more than 2 hours. The number of times they left the house, then came back, left the house, then came back really irked me. It got repetitive, the same way that Paranormal Activity began to become repetitive with the day/night cycle.

My problem with the ending:

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Show Spoiler

Not so much what direction they take it in, I like those freak-out endings like here, Rosemary's Baby and House of the Devil. At this point, it's actually more of a risk. I think the problem is though, it feels so rushed. They throw it on as almost an afterthought. Even that doesn't bother me nearly as much the execution. It went too blair witch when before the filmmaking was relatively restrained. The involvement of the camera people irked me a bit too. I thought the rest of the film looked good, the compositions were more nuanced then you usually get in fake documentaries, and for that reason when they go for the running in the woods with the camera pointed to the ground it feels cheap and uninteresting.

]

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I enjoy these types of endings, too. I was an enormous fan of The House of the Devil. But here it just felt cheap, tacked on - an afterthought, as you said.

Not to mention that the CGI fire was just atrocious.

And yes, the cameraman running away with the camera pointed at the ground lasted way too long.

]

I think whether or not Ashley is possessed, her evolution is disturbing. People who think they are possessed is terrifying, but so is the idea that possession can be real. I don't think horror that points to the idea that evil exists only within us, or that reality is always more frightening is true, or even the most effective. Regardless, she is meek, quiet and sweet... the fact that something, internal or external, is corrupting her is really disturbing.

I found it more disturbing in concept than in execution.

And, that Cotton and the others were still questioning whether or not she was possessed after the scene in the barn was just ludicrous.

I thought the film was at its creepiest when it had subtle moments like her split-second smile before her bedroom door closed.

What do you think of the speculation/interpretation that...

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...her brother is actually the Devil himself? He was hostile towards Cotton and the others because he was protecting his baby, who would effectively be the Anti-Christ. Then, he becomes accepting of Cotton when he sees Cotton performing the fake exorcism - he says "we don't have a problem anymore, we're good".

]

[Philosophe_rouge]

I was actually surprised that the movie was merely 100 minutes long. I honestly felt like I had been sitting there for more than 2 hours. The number of times they left the house, then came back, left the house, then came back really irked me. It got repetitive, the same way that Paranormal Activity began to become repetitive with the day/night cycle.




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I enjoy these types of endings, too. I was an enormous fan of The House of the Devil. But here it just felt cheap, tacked on - an afterthought, as you said.

Not to mention that the CGI fire was just atrocious.

And yes, the cameraman running away with the camera pointed at the ground lasted way too long.

]




I found it more disturbing in concept than in execution.

And, that Cotton and the others were still questioning whether or not she was possessed after the scene in the barn was just ludicrous.

I thought the film was at its creepiest when it had subtle moments like her split-second smile before her bedroom door closed.

What do you think of the speculation/interpretation that...

[

Show Spoiler

...her brother is actually the Devil himself? He was hostile towards Cotton and the others because he was protecting his baby, who would effectively be the Anti-Christ. Then, he becomes accepting of Cotton when he sees Cotton performing the fake exorcism - he says "we don't have a problem anymore, we're good".

]

Strange, after walking out I thought it went by really quickly. i thought it was shorter then it was.

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The fire didn't bother me. The shot at the ground though, ugh. So stupid.

]

It is more disturbing in concept, if only because we know it can be done better. The exorcist is far more successful at exploring those ideas.

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I've never heard that before. I'm not sure if I'm feeling it, though it can work. It's been a few weeks since i've seen it, does the brother appear at any point in the final few scenes?

]

[megladon8]

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I've never heard that before. I'm not sure if I'm feeling it, though it can work. It's been a few weeks since i've seen it, does the brother appear at any point in the final few scenes?

]

Yes.

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He is who the cameraman ran into. The boy had a sickle and (you assume) cut the cameraman's head off.

]

[MadMan]

That Scream 3 rating seems way overinflated. Refresh my memory; Is that the movie that Jamie Kennedy made an appearance via VHS?

Also looking at the Scream 3 imdb, Jay and Silent Bob were in it too? I don't remember that cameo.

Yes, yes, and yes. Jamie Kennedy was the best thing about the scream movies. [

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I was pissed that they killed off Randy in Scream 2.

]

Cont. from FDT:
Really, you think so?

It's an often inspired and generally competent horror film, so I see where it gets its support, particularly within its own series, but I'm sure you and even its following have to admit, overall, it's a hapless, generally harebrained film. If a single concept was ever thoroughly explained, it would've seemed like a miracle, and have soothed my brain from all the whats, hows, and hurrhs? running through my mind at every sentence out of anyone's mouth. It was hard to stay invested sometimes. This also made me finally understand those annoyed with ghost movies without any logic, but this film also piles on medical science without logic, a psychiatric ward without protocol, and Heather Langenkamp without sense of the (already pretty confounding) words coming out of her mouth.

On the plus side, lots of cool bits and good kills, and a somewhat satisfying climax. John Saxon also gets to have a lot more fun here than in the original. Also, like the original Nightmare, this also contains a shockingly poignant mother-daughter relationship. Good job, slasher franchise.

Look, I acknowledge that its not a great movie. But I think its good fun, has some original and awesome kills, and its characters are quite strong for the most part. Plus it dives into Freddy's background without being annoying, or starting something stupid like Michal Myers' Thorn cult (ugh). The psychiatric bits are somewhat silly, but I didn't really mind since they served a purpose. I liked Nancy coming back, just because it made sense and she's one of the best horror movie female heroes ever, really.

John Saxon having a bigger role is just tops. He should have played more of a part in the first movie. Mother-daughter relationships are rarely touched upon in horror movies-probably because its the bad guys mom/dad issues that get more attention for some reason.

Well now I'm motivated to actually see The Last Exorcism. For the time being I'm rather mixed on whether it looks good or not.

[Philosophe_rouge]

Shameless self-promotion.

We did our show tonight on Found Footage Horror, we discuss Blair Witch, Cloverfield and The Last Exorcism:

http://www.soundonsight.org/sound-on...e-horor-genre/

[Dukefrukem]

Yes, yes, and yes. Jamie Kennedy was the best thing about the scream movies. [

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I was pissed that they killed off Randy in Scream 2.

]

It's a close tie between him and Matthew Lillard for me. Kennedy has the edge for making it into the sequels. But after they started spouting more movie talk and rules through the next two movies it got pretty tiring.

[number8]

The whole "rules to surviving a horror movie" thing was clever in the first one. But it was absolutely retarded that he had a "rules for surviving a trilogy" in Scream 3. What kind of thing is that?

[Ezee E]

The whole "rules to surviving a horror movie" thing was clever in the first one. But it was absolutely retarded that he had a "rules for surviving a trilogy" in Scream 3. What kind of thing is that?

Think the new one will have rules to surviving "torture horror"?

What would they even be?

[MadMan]

The whole "rules to surviving a horror movie" thing was clever in the first one. But it was absolutely retarded that he had a "rules for surviving a trilogy" in Scream 3. What kind of thing is that?

You'd think that he'd even have rules for surviving a horror movie series. Seeing as Randy was right about horror trilogies being rare-they usually don't stop at #3, but just keep right on going.

[jenniferofthejungle]

I had a little Fulci craving last night and I threw on The Beyond. I wish I understood what that man was trying to say at any given point in his movies. He just doesn't seem to give a damn that he makes no sense at all. There always seem to be clever moments, and great shots, surrounded by the worst dubbing imaginable, and muckity muck.

[MacGuffin]

Meh. The Beyond is an excellent Fulci exercise in grimy atmosphere.

[Dukefrukem]

I had a little Fulci craving last night and I threw on The Beyond. I wish I understood what that man was trying to say at any given point in his movies. He just doesn't seem to give a damn that he makes no sense at all. There always seem to be clever moments, and great shots, surrounded by the worst dubbing imaginable, and muckity muck.

This is exactly how I feel. I don't think I'd ever watch any of his movies again with the exception of Zombie and the infamous eye scene.

[D_Davis]

Fulci never made a single film worth a damn. One of the absolute worst filmmakers to have a following I've ever encountered. The worst offense isn't that his films are bad, it's that they are dull.

[MacGuffin]

I never understood the hate. I think Grouchy likes a few films of his also.

[Rowland]

My favorite Fulci is Don't Torture a Duckling, which is actually a damn good giallo of sorts, anchored with surprisingly coherent, forcibly explored themes. His early western Four of the Apocalypse is solid as well, and as for his more notorious later work, I'm partial to the underestimated City of the Living Dead, which has his most arresting array of surreal sights and dream logic without veering into absolute incoherence until its memorable finale. The Beyond has many moments, but is also bogged down by crap scenes like the person being eaten by spiders for ten minutes, Zombie is grimy fun that surprises with how straightforward its narrative is compared to most of his stuff from that period, and House by the Cemetery, which I just rewatched recently, is really dull, incompetent stuff, outside of a few memorably laughable moments.

As for critical defenses of Fulci, I know at least Bosco will recognize Fernando F. Croce, who's a big proponent of the guy. Here are some of his capsule-sized reviews:

Zombie
Lizard in a Woman's Skin
House by the Cemetery
The Beyond
Don't Torture a Duckling
Perversion Story
A Cat in the Brain
City of the Living Dead

[number8]

My favorite Fulci is Don't Torture a Duckling, which is actually a damn good giallo with surprisingly coherent themes.

Yes!!!

[Dukefrukem]

Thought you guys would be interested in this; Made my top 100 Horror Films list last night. Let me know what you think.

*removed list for thread*

[Bosco B Thug]

As for critical defenses of Fulci, I know at least Bosco will recognize Fernando F. Croce, who's a big proponent of the guy. Here are some of his capsule-sized reviews:

Zombie
Lizard in a Woman's Skin
House by the Cemetery
The Beyond
Don't Torture a Duckling
Perversion Story
A Cat in the Brain
City of the Living Dead

Haha, what a weirdo. If it's an old movie and he capsules it, it means he's got something purpley to say about it. And sure, Fulci's alright. He's got visual artistry, but he's also a sensationalist and it doesn't go much deeper than that. Despite patented Euro-schlock strangeness, Argento's got the genuine esoteric mind.

[megladon8]

I like it, Duke.

It's especially cool to see Tales from the Crypt: Demon Knight get some love. That'd probably make my list, too.

[MadMan]

I've seen 47 off your list, Duke. I don't agree with all of your choices (although The Thing being #1 is cool, I guess) but its still an interesting list. Some commentary would explain most of your picks, and why they're ranked so high or so low.