2008 - Top 20 countdown followed by the matchie® awards!!!

[ledfloyd]

The fact that the "real world" would love such a mediocre movie isn't particularly terrifying. The fact that match-cut would vote it as the best film of the year kinda is.

exactly. match-cut is supposed to be my safe haven from the "real world"

[lovejuice]

The social commentary was a non-issue for me (seriously, I didn't give a shit), but I agree with you that, for a blockbuster, it was majorly awesome, until the gradual downhill slide that started with the introduction of Two-Face.

not sure if i want to discuss TDK here, but agree, Two-Face is one of the big problems for me.

[DavidSeven]

its social commentary is thorny in a manner equally unsettling and fascinating.

For me, this is the best thing about the film. It's partisanship is impossible to pin down. It certainly shuns traditional leftist thinking that most notably poltical films employ. I don't recall a mainstream film, much less a genre blockbuster, that tackled political pragmatism so fervently. I think the politically-minded people who are disinterested in the social aspects of this film are too quick to ignore the political complexity. They either view Luscious Fox's rejection of privacy invading means as overt and vanilla leftist theme spouting or are too disturbed by Batman's politically conservative methods. But the former ignores Batman's success in saving lives and averting absolute disaster by using those means, and the latter ignores the never-ending cycle of escalating violence his methods produce. I think there are certain highly celebrated political films that are far less interesting because they refuse to acknowledge any legitimacy of political conservatism and therefore espouse a pretty narrow viewpoint. Nolan gives fair consideration to both sides but brilliantly leaves unanswered whether adherence to leftist ideology should prevail if there are lives immediately at stake or whether longterm consequences make immediate action inherently unjustifiable.

[Qrazy]

For me, this is the best thing about the film. It's partisanship is impossible to pin down. It certainly shuns traditional leftist thinking that most notably poltical films employ. I don't recall a mainstream film, much less a genre blockbuster, that tackled political pragmatism so fervently. I think the politically-minded people who are disinterested in the social aspects of this film are too quick to ignore the political complexity. They either view Luscious Fox's rejection of privacy invading means as overt and vanilla leftist theme spouting or are too disturbed by Batman's politically conservative methods. But the former ignores Batman's success in saving lives and averting absolute disaster by using those means, and the latter ignores the never-ending cycle of escalating violence his methods produce. I think there are certain highly celebrated political films that are far less interesting because they refuse to acknowledge any legitimacy of political conservatism and therefore espouse a pretty narrow viewpoint. Nolan gives fair consideration to both sides but brilliantly leaves unanswered whether adherence to leftist ideology should prevail if there are lives immediately at stake or whether longterm consequences make immediate action inherently unjustifiable.

So would you say Nolan's political leanings ultimately lie in a zone of zigzag indeterminacy?

[DavidSeven]

So would you say Nolan's political leanings ultimately lie in a zone of zigzag indeterminacy?

That depends on the definition you're applying to indeterminancy. If you mean that he's waffling then I disagree. But if you mean that he's rejecting the existence of an "absolute truth" in politics then I think that might be a fair reading.

[lovejuice]

I think there are certain highly celebrated political films that are far less interesting because they refuse to acknowledge any legitimacy of political conservatism and therefore espouse a pretty narrow viewpoint.

based on the movie alone, it's hard for me to read "conservatism" out of batman, the character. more "superheroism" which is a different can of worm altogether. perhaps a movie like watchmen does a better job investigating and connecting the two. the graphic novel sure does. (i haven't watched the movie.) i don't think batman in TDK stand for anything except the iconic image of a masked individual going about in the dark, above the law, punching people we don't like in the nad.

[Ivan Drago]

Most overrated film of the decade? Yep.

What, not enough teens finding themselves?

[Qrazy]

That depends on the definition you're applying to indeterminancy. If you mean that he's waffling then I disagree. But if you mean that he's rejecting the existence of an "absolute truth" in politics then I think that might be a fair reading.

I was just teasing you.

This strategy can be amped up into philosophical disquisition that usually sounds better in French but can occur in English too.

Jim: I just don’t see why people take W**dy *ll*n seriously. Cr*m*s *nd M*sd*m**n*rs is heavy-handed in its metaphors of blindness and sight.

Jules: What’s remarkable about W**dy is the way his metaphors hover between the banal and the extraordinary. They’re at once familiar and unfamiliar, both distant and near. They lie, we might say, in a zone of zigzag indeterminacy.

Okay, this plays better on the page than in conversation, but I have encountered it occasionally face to face. It’s a hard serve to return. Resorting to I just don’t know what that means usually makes you look dumb, whereas Do you buy effluvia like that in ten-gallon drums? would be considered hostile.

http://www.davidbordwell.net/blog/?p=2662

For the record I agree with your initial comments.

[Ezee E]

What, not enough teens finding themselves?

Look at Ivan getting in a zing.

[DavidSeven]

based on the movie alone, it's hard for me to read "conservatism" out of batman, the character. more "superheroism" which is a different can of worm altogether. perhaps a movie like watchmen does a better job investigating and connecting the two. the graphic novel sure does. (i haven't watched the movie.) i don't think batman in TDK stand for anything except the iconic image of a masked individual going about in the dark, above the law, punching people we don't like in the nad.

Well, I think the film is pretty blatantly political even if it never intended to be. I mean, his use of spy technology alone is enough to draw the easy parrallels. Practically speaking, I don't know how anyone could read the film as simply being about someone "going about in the dark and punching people" when there really isn't much of that going on. The entire film involves Batman making ethical judgments that frequently lean conservative: his disregard for general privacy, his dismissal of foreign jurisdiction, his interrogation tactics, etc. that he justifies by striving for the greater good.

I think Watchmen (the novel) is brilliantly complex in expressing its politics, but it's most assuredly a pro-leftwing piece. But its greatness lies in how it gets you to that end. I think TDK has different goals, is less partisan, and raises different questions, but it's no less political. The only sense in which Watchmen is more political (and maybe why people can interpret it so easily) is that real life politicians are characters in the book. On that same note, you have to recognize that there's a reason why Harvey Dent is presented as a politician and not strictly as the prosecuting attorney that we've seen in the comics and various TV series. Nolan is actually deviating pretty far from our conception of the "iconic caped crusader" and the characers as they exist in the older comics and past representations in other mediums.

[Rowland]

until the gradual downhill slide that started with the introduction of Two-Face.

Basically. Everything from that point on is pretty lame and contrived.

[Ivan Drago]

Look at Ivan getting in a zing.

A zing? :|

I've read the expression used here a lot, I just...don't know what it means.

[Spinal]

A zing? :|

I've read the expression used here a lot, I just...don't know what it means.

Short for zinger.

[Melville]

Short for zinger.

Really? I thought "zinger" was derived from "zing"; i.e. a zinger is something that zings ("criticizes in a pointed or witty manner").

[Spinal]

Really? I thought "zinger" was derived from "zing"; i.e. a zinger is something that zings ("criticizes in a pointed or witty manner").

Is this a really important conversation for us to have? Because I think I'm going to go mow the lawn.

[

Show Spoiler

Zing!

]

[Melville]

Is this a really important conversation for us to have? Because I think I'm going to go mow the lawn.

[

Show Spoiler

Zing!

]

A good example does wonders to clarify a definition.

[Qrazy]

A good example does wonders to clarify a definition.

Maple leaves.

[Spinal]

Really? I thought "zinger" was derived from "zing"; i.e. a zinger is something that zings ("criticizes in a pointed or witty manner").

Now that the lawn is mowed, I think it's a case where there was a verb ('zing') and it was turned into a noun ('zinger') and then that became an abbreviated slang term which was also a noun ('zing').

I am asserting this without doing any research whatsoever.

[Melville]

Now that the lawn is mowed, I think it's a case where there was a verb ('zing') and it was turned into a noun ('zinger') and then that became an abbreviated slang term which was also a noun ('zing').

Is it being used as a noun though? I thought it was an interjection.

EDIT: According to somebody named "The Grimace", who is presumably an expert on the subject, "zing" can be used as a noun, with the same meaning as "zinger", or as an interjection: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=zing

[

Show Spoiler

Hopefully Ivan's question is being gradually answered somewhere in this conversation.

]

[Sycophant]

[Spinal]

Look at Ivan getting in a zing.

In the sentence above, it's definitely being used as a noun and not a verb, although as you point out, Melville, it can also be an interjection. There ought to be a law against such grammatical confusion.

[Qrazy]

I'm inclined to Zing both of you in the nuts if this keeps up.

[Melville]

In the sentence above, it's definitely being used as a noun and not a verb

Hah. Evidently I need to actually read the post in question before embarking on a pointless discussion of it. For some reason I automatically imagined a post saying "Zing!" when I read your initial response to Ivan.

Speaking of Schoolhouse Rock, who agrees that this is its moment of triumph? American colonization of the moon ftw!