Barty's Thread of Crazy Ideas, or: If I Was President

[DavidSeven]

"Well-off" is relative, and the data suggests that Canadian teachers don't make substantially more than their U.S. counterparts. Even tenured professors at prestigious private universities don't hit the 150,000-200,000 ballpark. You would have to be a cream-of-the-crop Law professor to approach those numbers. No one is making that much to teach multiplication tables.

[Melville]

Teachers in Canada seem to be paid okay, I guess. At any rate, I don't think they're being paid $150k-$200k.

The median Canadian income is about $30000, so teachers are definitely paid fairly well.

[megladon8]

Well, I stand corrected.

I could have sworn that teachers were some of the highest paid people in the country.

Sorry for the misinformation.

[Sycophant]

Make my birthday Candy Day where everyone gets free candy.

Is your birthday today? I could really go for some free candy today.

I might even be willing to truck it down to New Zealand to get some of that free candy.

[Melville]

"Well-off" is relative, and the data suggests that Canadian teachers don't make substantially more than their U.S. counterparts. Even tenured professors at prestigious private universities don't hit the 150,000-200,000 ballpark. You would have to be a cream-of-the-crop Law professor to approach those numbers. No one is making that much to teach multiplication tables.

While 200,000 is probably a bit much, professors at public universities are definitely paid very well. Here's a list of all university employees in Ontario who make more than $100,000/year (yes, this is public information):

http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/english/pub.../univer08.html

There are a few professors, in a variety of fields, making over 150,000. I wonder how this compares to the U.S.

[D_Davis]

I'm not sure. Teachers who have graduate degrees do get paid more, but the six years might be for people who went to teacher's college after their undergraduate degree.

Right. I've always thought that a teachers degree/certification should be considered a Masters because it requires 2 additional years of schooling past your undergrad.

[Melville]

Right. I've always thought that a teachers degree/certification should be considered a Masters because it requires 2 additional years of schooling past your undergrad.

I don't know. A Masters is an academic degree, providing academic knowledge of a particular field (though I guess I'm just thinking of MAs and MScs), while teachers college is supposed to be more of a technical program, teaching one "on-the-job" skills.

[D_Davis]

I don't know. A Masters is an academic degree, providing academic knowledge of a particular field (though I guess I'm just thinking of MAs and MScs), while teachers college is supposed to be more of a technical program, teaching one "on-the-job" skills.

MAFA are also more technically based though. A MAFA in creative writing teaches one the skills to write, er, creatively, or something.

I don't know either, I guess. I have so many problems with the education system at large....

[DavidSeven]

Is the system itself really broken though? Seems the opportunity to learn is there for anyone willing to embrace it. I would wager that cultural influences play a larger role in America's deficiencies in education than anything else.

[Melville]

Is the system itself really broken though? Seems the opportunity to learn is there for anyone willing to embrace it. I would wager that cultural influences play a larger role in America's deficiencies in education than anything else.

I think the biggest problem in modern Canadian education (I don't know about the U.S.) is that people are expected to go to university. University, for the most part, does not teach skills that are useful or relevant for most jobs, and yet employers want people with university degrees, and people go to university solely because they think it will get them a better job when they graduate. This ends up discouraging people from pursuing apprenticeships or more practical degrees at colleges. Simultaneously, because people are expected to go to university, academic standards are lowered to keep people from failing. The end result is that university classes consist largely of people who have little interest in learning the material, who frequently lack the skills or intelligence to succeed academically, and who are being taught things that are of no relevance to them or to the job they hope to obtain when they graduate. The quality of education for people who are actually academically-minded is lessened, while universities pointlessly pump out graduates with no practical skills.

My view of this situation might be skewed, so somebody correct me if I'm talking crazy.

[shaun]

I don't understand this desire to pay teachers ungodly amounts of cash. They provide a useful service obviously, but the bar for entry into the field is relatively low, they get paid comparably to other civil necessities like police and firefighters, and they get a very healthy pension. It seems that they're doing OK.

Just from my own anecdotal evidence, teaching seems to the career of choice for liberal arts majors who found out their philosophy degree is sort of useless and they didn't want to go on to grad school or work retail.

[Benny Profane]

They get three months off in the summer too. Can you imagine?

[Robby P]

They get three months off in the summer too. Can you imagine?

Most teachers tend to work a second job during the summer.

[DavidSeven]

I think the biggest problem in modern Canadian education (I don't know about the U.S.) is that people are expected to go to university. University, for the most part, does not teach skills that are useful or relevant for most jobs, and yet employers want people with university degrees, and people go to university solely because they think it will get them a better job when they graduate. This ends up discouraging people from pursuing apprenticeships or more practical degrees at colleges. Simultaneously, because people are expected to go to university, academic standards are lowered to keep people from failing. The end result is that university classes consist largely of people who have little interest in learning the material, who frequently lack the skills or intelligence to succeed academically, and who are being taught things that are of no relevance to them or to the job they hope to obtain when they graduate. The quality of education for people who are actually academically-minded is lessened, while universities pointlessly pump out graduates with no practical skills.

My view of this situation might be skewed, so somebody correct me if I'm talking crazy.

I think this is more or less correct, but I think it stems from cultural altitudes that exalt ends (jobs, status, paper degrees) more than the process itself (learning). I don't know that it's much different in other parts of the world, but students seem to take the process more seriously in other continents whereas it's mostly seen as "something to get through" to acheive some end here.

[D_Davis]

They get three months off in the summer too. Can you imagine?

No they don't - not even close. Most teachers I know work at other jobs during this time, or they are working on their work for the next school year. That three months off is a myth as far as I know.

In reality, I actually get more time off from actual work than a teacher, because when I am off, I am OFF - not thinking about work or worrying about getting another job to make ends meet.

But hey - they signed up for it knowing full well...

[Sycophant]

DavidSeven and Melville are pretty much saying things I agree with and it absolutely is the case here in the States as well. That a college degree is pretty much the new high school diploma is pretty ridiculous.

[D_Davis]

I strongly believe that while college should be free and available to anyone who wants to go, there are many people who shouldn't go to college, and that these people should not be looked down upon. I was one of those people. I should not have gone to college, but it was something I was always told I should. I went and ended up with a liberal arts degree, and I really have no desire to ever go back.

I should have gone to vocational school, but back when I was in school the vocational schools were looked down upon. These were the schools you went to when you got kicked out of other schools.

[Barty]

Please explain this further. I do not see why I should have to pay thousands of dollars to send my child to school.

But somebody else should pay thousands of dollars to send your kids to school?

Anyway, private schools are more efficient, cheaper to run, and provide better education. Public schools are vampires at sucking tax dollars from people, not to mention worshipers of the State.

[Barty]

I'd like to hear more about this one as well. Why you would do it, and how.

Because the Federal Government has no constitutional authority to regulate safety in the workplace.

[Barty]

To further this, I understand your opinion of abolishing the Department of Education, leaving the right for schools left to the States, but why should the States not be allowed to provide public education? Why should access to a school become a privilege and not a right?

I'm not saying States don't have the right, I'm just saying they shouldn't. Also, because it's not a right. Also, it's silly to assume you need a public school to be educated.

[Barty]

What's your position on mutants?

They are fine, like any person unless they violate the rights of others they have the right to live in peace.

[megladon8]

I always get confused because Canada and the US have different definitions for "college" and "university".

From what I understand, college and university are much the same in the US. At least, having a degree from either is looked upon pretty highly.

Here in Canada, there is a huge difference between going to college and going to university.

College is almost like a continuation of high school in its tone. You pick a very specific program to enter, you do it full-time (there are some part-time programs, but they're handled a little differently) and you get a diploma in that field. College tends to be kind of "looked down upon", as it mostly deals with trade-work and training for labor-intensive "blue collar" jobs.

College is very hands-on, with a mixture of both theoretical and practical training. Also, most (not all) college programs lead you to definite employment.


University, on the other hand, gives you almost entirely theoretical training in a field, and employment is far from guaranteed, particularly if you've taken something like Philosophy or a Bachelor of Arts. It's highly esteemed among intellectuals, but many argue it's not very practical.

[Barty]

Is utterly insane. And it would result in an increase in the size and power of the government imo. I don't want any more Congressmen and women. We have enough to screw up the country, thank you.

It wouldn't increase the size and power anymore than it is now. In fact, power would be diluted through so many congressman, and lobbying people would be extremely hard. At least representation would actually be at a reasonable proportion.

[Melville]

I think this is more or less correct, but I think it stems from cultural altitudes that exalt ends (jobs, status, paper degrees) more than the process itself (learning). I don't know that it's much different in other parts of the world, but students seem to take the process more seriously in other continents whereas it's mostly seen as "something to get through" to acheive some end here.

Yeah, I fully agree with that. People who go to university should be interested in what they will actually learn their, rather than just because they are expected to get a degree. But what adds to the frustrating stupidity of it, in my mind, is that even if we want to encourage people to be goal-oriented and to see university as a means to an end, university simply doesn't teach anything that is relevant to the desired ends. If we as a society view university education as a means of creating a highly educated workforce to compete in the global economy (or whatever), why aren't we redesigning university curricula so that they actually teach things relevant to that workforce? Leave the purely academic programs alone, and create alongside them something else that will help create that wonderful workforce we're after.

[Benny Profane]

Most teachers tend to work a second job during the summer.

And they get paid for that on top of their teacher's salary.