Whatever Works

[baby doll]

Woody Allen is coming closer to making the Woody Allen movie I want to see, one where he addresses his unique thoughts and feelings at this stage in his life.

First of all, where does this particular aesthetic criterion leave the films that Allen's actually made, as opposed to some hypothetical ideal of your own as to what kind of film he should make? I'd much rather discuss films that exist.

As far as his own unique thoughts and feelings, aren't those going to slip out anyway through whatever kind of content he chooses to pursue? Match Point pretty plainly addresses his thoughts and feelings on luck, which come up again in Whatever Works (Larry David literally falls over his ideal woman).

[trotchky]

First of all, where does this particular aesthetic criterion leave the films that Allen's actually made, as opposed to some hypothetical ideal of your own as to what kind of film he should make? I'd much rather discuss films that exist.

As far as his own unique thoughts and feelings, aren't those going to slip out anyway through whatever kind of content he chooses to pursue? Match Point pretty plainly addresses his thoughts and feelings on luck, which come up again in Whatever Works (Larry David literally falls over his ideal woman).

Match Point is one of the better ones for that reason, yes. As for the rest, they're just bad movies. My criterion may be selfish and unreasonable; doesn't change the fact that his output this decade has been light-weight and frivolous, if not outright dishonest.

[baby doll]

Match Point is one of the better ones for that reason, yes. As for the rest, they're just bad movies. My criterion may be selfish and unreasonable; doesn't change the fact that his output this decade has been light-weight and frivolous, if not outright dishonest.

No, apart from Match Point, he hasn't done anything very ambitious since at least Husbands and Wives. But what do you expect post-Mia Farrow?

[trotchky]

No, apart from Match Point, he hasn't done anything very ambitious since at least Husbands and Wives. But what do you expect post-Mia Farrow?

I don't expect, but would like, for him to make a movie about boning Mia Farrow's daughter. Whatever Works is at least half-way there.

[baby doll]

I don't expect, but would like, for him to make a movie about boning Mia Farrow's daughter. Whatever Works is at least half-way there.

So every film he makes now has to be about a tabloid scandal from over fifteen years ago? By the way, if you're so interested in his marriage, check out Barbara Kopple's Wild Man Blues, but it may not be as intimate of a portrait as you seem to desire.

[trotchky]

So every film he makes now has to be about a tabloid scandal from over fifteen years ago? By the way, if you're so interested in his marriage, check out Barbara Kopple's Wild Man Blues, but it may not be as intimate of a portrait as you seem to desire.

I was being semi-facetious. I don't necessarily want to see him make a movie solely about marrying his ex-wife's daughter (although that could be very interesting), but more generally, one about his thoughts and fears and person at this stage in his life. Woody Allen's greatest movies, I think, are largely auto-biographical, even if the details are fiction. I want a movie about Woody the 73 year old man, just as Annie Hall was, at least in part, about Woody the 40 year old.

[baby doll]

I was being semi-facetious. I don't necessarily want to see him make a movie solely about marrying his ex-wife's daughter (although that could be very interesting), but more generally, one about his thoughts and fears and person at this stage in his life. Woody Allen's greatest movies, I think, are largely auto-biographical, even if the details are fiction. I want a movie about Woody the 73 year old man, just as Annie Hall was, at least in part, about Woody the 40 year old.

Well, I don't think one can talk, write or make a film about their life without turning it into fiction. Furthermore, I don't know for a fact how autobiographical any of Allen's films are, and really couldn't care less.

[trotchky]

Well, I don't think one can talk, write or make a film about their life without turning it into fiction.

I don't necessarily disagree, which is why I said his films were auto-biographical "even if the details were fiction."

Furthermore, I don't know for a fact how autobiographical any of Allen's films are, and really couldn't care less.

I don't know for a fact either, but I do know that his best films come off as very personal statements, whether that means love for a city or love for a woman. His newer films don't have that personal touch. What's more, there's a reason Woody Allen basically plays the same character in all the movies he's in. Whether or not that character is who he is in real life, it's pretty clearly a persona of his. Which, as you stated, doesn't make it any less real, even if it's fiction.

And, okay, you couldn't care less. That's fine. When we get down to it, I don't think it really matters either. What does matter is that he used to make interesting movies and now he doesn't.

[baby doll]

I don't know for a fact either, but I do know that his best films come off as very personal statements, whether that means love for a city or love for a woman. His newer films don't have that personal touch.

Whatever Allen does, it's going to have a personal touch to it because he made it. It's his. How else do we know his personality except through his films? In Whatever Works, when Larry David ends his opening monologue by saying that his expertise was string theory, and then we hear opera music on the soundtrack, that's a very Allenesque transition. And having the character speak directly to camera and making him a perennial pessimist both hark back to Annie Hall. He can put a personal touch on a film without it being a thinly veiled autobiography about his feelings for an actress or the city where he's shooting.

What's more, there's a reason Woody Allen basically plays the same character in all the movies he's in. Whether or not that character is who he is in real life, it's pretty clearly a persona of his. Which, as you stated, doesn't make it any less real, even if it's fiction.

And one definition of a persona is "the role that one assumes or displays in public or society; one's public image or personality, as distinguished from the inner self." John Wayne always played cowboys and Asia Argento always plays super-skanks, but I don't think that's who they are in real life, as much as one might want it to be true.

And, okay, you couldn't care less. That's fine. When we get down to it, I don't think it really matters either. What does matter is that he used to make interesting movies and now he doesn't.

He made a lot of crap in 70s and 80s, too.

[trotchky]

He made one bad movie in the seventies (Love and Death) and no bad movies in the eighties, that I've seen. Even Love and Death is better than everything he's made this decade, with the exception of Whatever Works.

And, yeah, Larry David talking into the camera in Whatever Works harks back to Annie Hall. Did you expect me to disagree with that? I've been saying Whatever Works is the most personal movie Allen has made in ten years this whole time.

Look, this argument clearly isn't going anywhere, so I'll leave it at this: at some point Allen stopped making movies that came across as aggressive personal statements and started making movies that came across as escapist fantasy. His personal touch might be on movies like Scoop and Vicky Cristina Barcelona; that doesn't make them deep or insightful or poignant, certainly not in the same way his best movies are.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I largely agree with you trotchky, but don't be hatin' on Love and Death.

[baby doll]

He made one bad movie in the seventies (Love and Death) and no bad movies in the eighties, that I've seen. Even Love and Death is better than everything he's made this decade, with the exception of Whatever Works.

In addition to Love and Death, I would add Bananas. And I turned off Sleeper after thirty minutes, but maybe it gets better. (The only one of his early, "funny" movies that I really like is Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Sex... But Were Afraid to Ask.) From the 80s, Zelig is pretty lame, and I have yet to see A Midsummer Night's Sex Dream primarily because I've never heard anybody say anything even remotely positive about it. Similarly, I haven't seen September, but according to Jonathan Rosenbaum at least, it's his very worst film. The only film from this decade I didn't like was Melinda and Melinda, although I've avoided seeing Hollywood Ending and Cassandra's Dream because of their low reputations.

And, yeah, Larry David talking into the camera in Whatever Works harks back to Annie Hall. Did you expect me to disagree with that? I've been saying Whatever Works is the most personal movie Allen has made in ten years this whole time.

But it's personal in the sense that the style and choice of subject is distinctive and consistent with his previous work, not because of some buried autobiographical level.

Look, this argument clearly isn't going anywhere, so I'll leave it at this: at some point Allen stopped making movies that came across as aggressive personal statements and started making movies that came across as escapist fantasy. His personal touch might be on movies like Scoop and Vicky Cristina Barcelona; that doesn't make them deep or insightful or poignant, certainly not in the same way his best movies are.

I've never looked to Woody Allen for depth or insight. He usually takes one pretty obvious idea (life isn't fair, life depends on luck, relationships are irrational) and builds a film around it (Crimes and Misdemeanors, Match Point, Whatever Works).

In terms of escapism and aggressive personal statements, I think the two are hard to distinguish. Rosenbaum considers Annie Hall--the first Allen picture to be treated seriously--a pure entertainment like all the films preceding it, but structurally it's closer to a European relationship film like Scenes From a Marriage than a Hollywood romantic comedy, where getting into a relationship is the end result and not something that has to be sustained (Whatever Works is arguably closer to the mark in that sense). On the other hand, he considers Broadway Danny Rose (one of his favorites and mine) an art picture because it's in black-and-white, although as in Manhattan (an art picture or a romantic comedy?), Gordon Willis' cinematography is more nostalgic than arty, harking back to the Hollywood movies of Allen's youth. The Purple Rose of Cairo starts out as escapism but cribs its ending from Fellini's Nights of Cabiria (even if it perverts the message into something along the lines of: life sucks and escapist movies are better), while Radio Days depoliticizes Amarcord, leaving only the nostalgia. Hannah and Her Sisters (one of his biggest commercial hits) and Crimes and Misdemeanors both have art movie elements, but their contrasting of comic and serious elements is plainly modeled after Chaplin (an entertainer or an artist?). Of his recent films, Match Point likewise has art movie elements (we see the hero reading Crime and Punishment), but it also has elements of a thriller (the protagonist is something of a homme fatale). Even if there are fewer art movie elements in his other recent films, they haven't totally vanished: Small Time Crooks is an homage to Big Deal on Madonna Street (an entertainment but an Italian one); The Curse of the Jade Scorpion is another nostalgic throwback to the films of Allen's youth, like The Purple Rose of Cairo; and Anything Else is a relationship film, like Annie Hall and Manhattan. In any event, I think all these movies--even the more escapist ones--have plenty of personal elements, even if it's just borrowing from films he likes, which is after all an expression of personal taste.

[Thirdmango]

This one hit me personally quite a bit so I loved it probably more then most people have. It was awesome and I loved the Hell out of it, easily in my top 3 fave Allen movies.

[baby doll]

This one hit me personally quite a bit so I loved it probably more then most people have. It was awesome and I loved the Hell out of it, easily in my top 3 fave Allen movies.

What chu talkin' about, Willis?

Might I recommend you watch (or if need be, rewatch) Annie Hall, Interiors, Manhattan, Stardust Memories, Broadway Danny Rose, The Purple Rose of Cairo (despite the ending), Hannah and Her Sisters, Radio Days, Crimes and Misdemeanors, Husbands and Wives, and Match Point?

[Sycophant]

I really enjoyed this. Probably Woody's second best this decade, after Vicky Cristina Barcelona. Larry David is a marvelous choice for the Woody Allen stand-in role, as he brings something uniquely Larry to it. Some of the jokes felt tired and occasionally the marriage of seventies and aughts Allen felt just a tad discordant, but I was laughing throughout, the dialogue was mostly very sharp (in a punchy way I haven't seen as much from the man in his last fwe comedies), and, well, it was all pretty cute. Enjoyable stuff.

[Thirdmango]

What chu talkin' about, Willis?

Might I recommend you watch (or if need be, rewatch) Annie Hall, Interiors, Manhattan, Stardust Memories, Broadway Danny Rose, The Purple Rose of Cairo (despite the ending), Hannah and Her Sisters, Radio Days, Crimes and Misdemeanors, Husbands and Wives, and Match Point?

and I quote: This one hit me personally quite a bit so I loved it probably more then most people have.

[Amnesiac]

Some of the jokes felt tired and occasionally the marriage of seventies and aughts Allen felt just a tad discordant

When? The shoehorned Obama joke?

[Sycophant]

When? The shoehorned Obama joke?

That was weird. The fourth wall stuff also just felt like the kind of thing Allen's not as likely to do anymore. I'd have a hard time putting my finger on precise moments, really, now that the film's already receded in my memory a bit.

[Qrazy]

In addition to Love and Death, I would add Bananas. And I turned off Sleeper after thirty minutes, but maybe it gets better. (The only one of his early, "funny" movies that I really like is Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Sex... But Were Afraid to Ask.) From the 80s, Zelig is pretty lame, and I have yet to see A Midsummer Night's Sex Dream primarily because I've never heard anybody say anything even remotely positive about it. Similarly, I haven't seen September, but according to Jonathan Rosenbaum at least, it's his very worst film. The only film from this decade I didn't like was Melinda and Melinda, although I've avoided seeing Hollywood Ending and Cassandra's Dream because of their low reputations.

My two cents. Bananas is the funniest film he's made. Love and Death is not a bad film but I actually do agree that of his earlier period it's one of the weakest. Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Sex is also one of his weakest earlier period films and as someone who has railed against episodic narratives in the past I'm surprised you praise it so highly. However, the sheep episode is indeed quite excellent. Zelig is also very good but far from one of his best films which many MatchCutters seem to feel. A Midsummer Night's Sex Comedy possesses Allen's greatest weakness. It has horribly obnoxious characters. But it also possesses Allen's greatest strength. Gordon Willis. Zing! jk, I like Allen.

[baby doll]

Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Sex is also one of his weakest earlier period films and as someone who has railed against episodic narratives in the past I'm surprised you praise it so highly.

I think in this case (and Oedipus Wrecks), Allen's ideas are better suited to the short form than a feature-length elaboration. (Come to think of it, has he ever made a film longer than two hours? He's like the anti-Rivette.) I mean, some of the sketches are pretty half baked, but none of them overstay their welcome--unlike What's Up, Tiger Lily?

[Ezee E]

Enjoyed this solely for the Larry David factor who was brilliant in what is otherwise a mediocre script that the actors couldn't pull off. The other characters all seemed forced.

I hope they work together again.

[trotchky]

Did anyone understand the "Am I a member of my generation?" line? Was that supposed to be a joke or something?

[ledfloyd]

I really enjoyed this. Probably Woody's second best this decade, after Vicky Cristina Barcelona. Larry David is a marvelous choice for the Woody Allen stand-in role, as he brings something uniquely Larry to it. Some of the jokes felt tired and occasionally the marriage of seventies and aughts Allen felt just a tad discordant, but I was laughing throughout, the dialogue was mostly very sharp (in a punchy way I haven't seen as much from the man in his last fwe comedies), and, well, it was all pretty cute. Enjoyable stuff.

pretty much.

i enjoyed it, but it's missing something to push it over the top.

[lovejuice]

as likable as the movie is, i feel oddly resisting to its charm. can't quite put my finger down. perhaps it's because boris, his wife and their marriage are the least developed aspects of this charade. i enjoy mini-arch by the supporting cast, but the movie is like a donut with an unfillable hole in the middle.