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Thread: 28 Film Discussion Threads Later

  1. #70976
    Quote Quoting Grouchy (view post)
    Wikipedia lists it as a narrative feature film, though.

    But I might use that as a loophole and watch Duelle instead.
    I have seen Duelle and it's great.
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  2. #70977
    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    How do you guys order your top 100?

    I made a list of personal favorites for a side project. Originally had it in alpha order as ranking them seemed impossible. Then I skimmed the list and bumped up anything (using letterboxd) that caught my eye. So now, to my surprise, my top 10 looks like this:

    1. Cleo from 5 to 7
    2. 42nd Street
    3. Singin' in the Rain
    4. A Touch of Zen
    5. The Searchers
    6. The Red Shoes
    7. The Quiet Man
    8. Casablanca
    9. Memories of Murder
    10. Duck Soup

    So my problem is: anything in slots 3-9 could legit just as easily be #2 ... but I can't bring myself to knock "42nd Street" down a slot. "Adventures of Robin Hood" sits in the mid-20s now and I think that's a terrific film, and should probably be higher. I've seen "Blade Runner" more times than anything else in my life and I don't know where to slot it, either.

    Any tips from the pro rankers out there?
    One thing I do is try to explain to myself why a movie is on the list in the first place. If one argument appears more compelling, the movie gets bumped. Even though it's against my better nature, I feel obligated incorporate historical significance *if* the films are truly deadlocked. Then of course there's a "live with yourself" test. Duck Soup over Singin' in the Rain. Both are deadlocked in many ways, but I could not live with myself if I did not place Duck Soup higher.

    Great list, btw. I haven't seen A Touch of Zen, The Quiet Man or Memories of Murder. Looking forward to checking them out soon, hopefully.
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  3. #70978
    The Pan megladon8's Avatar
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    Didn't realize Irish loved Memories of Murder so much.

    That's pretty turnt.
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  4. #70979
    Quote Quoting quido8_5 (view post)
    One thing I do is try to explain to myself why a movie is on the list in the first place. If one argument appears more compelling, the movie gets bumped. Even though it's against my better nature, I feel obligated incorporate historical significance *if* the films are truly deadlocked. Then of course there's a "live with yourself" test. Duck Soup over Singin' in the Rain. Both are deadlocked in many ways, but I could not live with myself if I did not place Duck Soup higher.

    Great list, btw. I haven't seen A Touch of Zen, The Quiet Man or Memories of Murder. Looking forward to checking them out soon, hopefully.
    While Memories isn't quite 100% on the same level, it still makes for a good unofficial companion piece to Zodiac, if that intrigues you.

  5. #70980
    The Pan megladon8's Avatar
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    I loved Zodiac, but Memories of Murder is much better.
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  6. #70981
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    Quote Quoting quido8_5 (view post)
    One thing I do is try to explain to myself why a movie is on the list in the first place. If one argument appears more compelling, the movie gets bumped. Even though it's against my better nature, I feel obligated incorporate historical significance *if* the films are truly deadlocked. Then of course there's a "live with yourself" test. Duck Soup over Singin' in the Rain. Both are deadlocked in many ways, but I could not live with myself if I did not place Duck Soup higher.
    Great advice, thank you!

    Great list, btw. I haven't seen A Touch of Zen, The Quiet Man or Memories of Murder. Looking forward to checking them out soon, hopefully.
    Post about 'em if you do. Be curious what you think.

    (If 1 or 2 people watch "The Quiet Man," this whole effort will have been worth it, haha.)

  7. #70982
    I can't say that I especially love either film, but of the two, Memories of Murder is both tighter as storytelling and better directed.
    Just because...
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    Petite maman (Céline Sciamma, 2021) mild
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  8. #70983
    Sunrise, Sunset Wryan's Avatar
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    The Quiet Man is an interesting movie. Not sure how much it succeeds as a romance (when the countryside and the wind machines do so much of the heavy lifting), but as a study of men, it's kind of wonderful. Love the moment when daughter becomes woman of the house and father becomes immediately deferential. Goes without saying that the landscapes are lovely. I've been to Ireland once when I was young, with family. Would like to go back now that I'm an adult.
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  9. #70984
    Quote Quoting baby doll (view post)
    I can't say that I especially love either film, but of the two, Memories of Murder is both tighter as storytelling and better directed.
    Eh, I'd say that Memories suffers a bit from the slightly awkward contrast between its style of direction, and the way that its plot lays a whodunit-like series of misleading clues and red herring suspects that were obviously invented for the film; I mean, it doesn't really bother me when a "historical" film like The Untouchables makes up a bunch of obvious BS that didn't happen in order to jazz its story, because it's clear from the operatic, over-the-top style that De Palma directed it in from frame one that it was always meant to be taken far more as cinematic "entertainment" than any sort of an accurate history lesson, but when you fabricate elements for a grittier, more realistic-feeling police procedural, then it sticks out more. Still, it's a testament to the strength of Bong and his team's work on that film that it was still a very good film anyway (and a better one than The Untouchables IMO, for the record), so it's not anywhere near a deal-breaker for me.

  10. #70985
    Quote Quoting StuSmallz (view post)
    Eh, I'd say that Memories suffers a bit from the slightly awkward contrast between its style of direction, and the way that its plot lays a whodunit-like series of misleading clues and red herring suspects that were obviously invented for the film; I mean, it doesn't really bother me when a "historical" film like The Untouchables makes up a bunch of obvious BS that didn't happen in order to jazz its story, because it's clear from the operatic, over-the-top style that De Palma directed it in from frame one that it was always meant to be taken far more as cinematic "entertainment" than any sort of an accurate history lesson, but when you fabricate elements for a grittier, more realistic-feeling police procedural, then it sticks out more. Still, it's a testament to the strength of Bong and his team's work on that film that it was still a very good film anyway (and a better one than The Untouchables IMO, for the record), so it's not anywhere near a deal-breaker for me.
    This may say more about my expectations than the film per se, but I never saw Memories of Murder as especially realistic, at least no more so than most Hollywood films purporting to be based on true stories (including Zodiac). The film's desaturated colour scheme--doubtlessly influenced by Se7en--seemed to me as much a generic staple as the city cop/country cop opposition rather than an attempt at realism (I've been to South Korea and can attest they do in fact have colour there).
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  11. #70986
    Administrator Ezee E's Avatar
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    I'll probably watch Memories of murder again. The dropkicks annoyed me enough to shut it off the first time I watched it. That was 10+ years ago, so I forget my mindset.

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  12. #70987
    Mother > Memories of Murder

  13. #70988
    I can barely remember anything about Mother. Parasite is easily my favourite of Bong's movies, although I still haven't seen Barking Dog Never Bites or Okja.
    Just because...
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  14. #70989
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    Quote Quoting Ezee E (view post)
    The dropkicks annoyed me enough to shut it off the first time I watched it.
    Boooo

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  15. #70990
    I'm the problem it's me DFA1979's Avatar
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    No idea where to post this at so I'm posting it here. I love Tubi and this is great news although I'm amazed it is still free:

    Tubi Partners with Drafthouse and Giant Pictures for Exclusive Streaming of Nearly 40 Titles
    Blog!

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    Someone that understands
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    But everybody's gone
    And I've been here for too long
    To face this on my own
    Well, I guess this is growing up

  16. #70991
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    Escape From L.A. is a trip.

    I mean, it's pretty bad...but I also get what they were going for with a lot of it. Could maybe even be argued this is one of Carpenter's "deeper" films thematically, as it cuts down Hollywood and celebrity culture.

    The surfing scene is gloriously awful. Though to be fair, "gloriously awful" could be used to describe much of what's on display here.

    Wasn't great, but wasn't even close to being as bad as I thought it was going to be.
    "All right, that's too hot. Anything we can do about that heat?"

    "Rick...it's a flamethrower."

  17. #70992
    Going back to Bong for a minute, the reason I've never regarded him as a great filmmaker--despite my admiration for Memories of Murder, The Host, and above all Parasite--is his abject reliance on genre conventions, which precludes him from making any fresh observations about his subjects (a trait he shares with Park Chan-wook). In other words, originality in his films is largely a matter of mixing and matching pre-digested genre conventions rather than doing anything really new. As entertaining as Parasite is, it's still far less substantial and memorable than any of the five films Bong has cited as inspirations because he's incapable of functioning independently of his influences.
    Just because...
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    Petite maman (Céline Sciamma, 2021) mild
    The Banshees of Inisherin (Martin McDonagh, 2022) mild

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  18. #70993
    Quote Quoting baby doll (view post)
    ..his abject reliance on genre conventions, which precludes him from making any fresh observations about his subjects
    I don't think this premise of your argument holds true at all. (Not in relation to Bong, but in terms of genre films in general; of course genre films can make fresh observations on their subjects.... it doesn't make sense to me to claim otherwise.)
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  19. #70994
    Quote Quoting transmogrifier (view post)
    I don't think this premise of your argument holds true at all. (Not in relation to Bong, but in terms of genre films in general; of course genre films can make fresh observations on their subjects.... it doesn't make sense to me to claim otherwise.)
    I probably could've made this clearer in my original post but my argument isn't that genre conventions in themselves preclude fresh observations. In fact, I don't think any kind of artistic production is possible without conventions. However, there's a profound difference between films that use genre conventions as a vehicle for discovery (e.g., Chabrol's applications of general principles derived from Hitchcock and Lang in Que la bête meure and La Cérémonie) and Bong's inability or unwillingness to think beyond his sources.
    Last edited by baby doll; 05-08-2021 at 02:39 AM.
    Just because...
    The Fabelmans (Steven Spielberg, 2022) mild
    Petite maman (Céline Sciamma, 2021) mild
    The Banshees of Inisherin (Martin McDonagh, 2022) mild

    The last book I read was...
    The Complete Short Stories by Mark Twain


    The (New) World

  20. #70995
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    Quote Quoting baby doll (view post)
    Going back to Bong for a minute, the reason I've never regarded him as a great filmmaker--despite my admiration for Memories of Murder, The Host, and above all Parasite--is his abject reliance on genre conventions, which precludes him from making any fresh observations about his subjects (a trait he shares with Park Chan-wook). In other words, originality in his films is largely a matter of mixing and matching pre-digested genre conventions rather than doing anything really new. As entertaining as Parasite is, it's still far less substantial and memorable than any of the five films Bong has cited as inspirations because he's incapable of functioning independently of his influences.
    What counts as a "fresh observation"? (And, hell, what counts as the "subject," in this case?)

  21. #70996
    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    What counts as a "fresh observation"? (And, hell, what counts as the "subject," in this case?)
    As I said earlier, I don't think it's possible to make a film without conventions--for example, in narrative films, a pool of stock characters and situations that different filmmakers can draw from. In La Cérémonie and Parasite, the underlying situation is basically the same: the working class protagonists' resentment of their wealthy employers leads to violence (this is what I meant by subject). The difference is that the characters in Chabrol's film have a specificity that Bong's characters lack: in the history of cinema, there has never been a resentful maid, a batty mail woman, or a smug bourgeois family quite like those in Chabrol's film (this is what I meant by fresh observation), whereas the characters in Bong's film are familiar generic types. (It's characteristic of Bong's taste for iconographic shorthand that the father dons a Native American headdress just prior to "going savage" on the rich family.) In other words, Bong's originality as a filmmaker consists in artfully combining clichés rather than transcending them.
    Just because...
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    Petite maman (Céline Sciamma, 2021) mild
    The Banshees of Inisherin (Martin McDonagh, 2022) mild

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    The Complete Short Stories by Mark Twain


    The (New) World

  22. #70997
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    Quote Quoting baby doll (view post)
    As I said earlier, I don't think it's possible to make a film without conventions--for example, in narrative films, a pool of stock characters and situations that different filmmakers can draw from. In La Cérémonie and Parasite, the underlying situation is basically the same: the working class protagonists' resentment of their wealthy employers leads to violence (this is what I meant by subject). The difference is that the characters in Chabrol's film have a specificity that Bong's characters lack: in the history of cinema, there has never been a resentful maid, a batty mail woman, or a smug bourgeois family quite like those in Chabrol's film (this is what I meant by fresh observation), whereas the characters in Bong's film are familiar generic types. (It's characteristic of Bong's taste for iconographic shorthand that the father dons a Native American headdress just prior to "going savage" on the rich family.) In other words, Bong's originality as a filmmaker consists in artfully combining clichés rather than transcending them.
    I watched "La Cérémonie" last night, and wouldn't have seen it otherwise, so I appreciate the mention. Good movie. Not sure about the ending.

    There are, as you said, parallels between it and "Parasite," but I think each film's overall approach is so wildly different it's hard to critique one based on the other.

    Bong wrote generic types because he's more interested in overall narrative effect --- specifically, he always seems to want to floor the audience with his endings. (I suspect he starts with a theme and a conclusion and writes from there).

    Chabrol took real life events (and a play by Jean Genet, ffs, talk about a pedigree) and fashioned a character driven drama that sought to explain the inexplicable.

    I think Chabrol's film is closer in intent to "Heavenly Creatures," "Compulsion," and "In Cold Blood" than it is to "Parasite."

    I haven't seen as many films by Park, but I get the same vibes from him as I do Bong. When people talk about "Oldboy," they don't talk about the characters. They talk about the big reveal, because it's a doozy, and they talk about that one incredible tracking shot. I'm not convinced their focus is an indictment of the film overall, though, that somehow renders it a lesser work.

    When it comes to genre, I think both approaches can work, eg: plot versus character, Raymond Chandler vs Agatha Christies, the adaptations of "The Big Sleep" (1946) and "Murder on the Orient Express" (1974), Larry McMurtry vs Louis L'amour, Raphael Sabatini vs Sax Rohmer, "Law and Order" vs "Homicide: Life on the Streets" and "The Wire."

  23. #70998
    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    I watched "La Cérémonie" last night, and wouldn't have seen it otherwise, so I appreciate the mention. Good movie. Not sure about the ending.

    There are, as you said, parallels between it and "Parasite," but I think each film's overall approach is so wildly different it's hard to critique one based on the other.

    Bong wrote generic types because he's more interested in overall narrative effect --- specifically, he always seems to want to floor the audience with his endings. (I suspect he starts with a theme and a conclusion and writes from there).

    Chabrol took real life events (and a play by Jean Genet, ffs, talk about a pedigree) and fashioned a character driven drama that sought to explain the inexplicable.

    I think Chabrol's film is closer in intent to "Heavenly Creatures," "Compulsion," and "In Cold Blood" than it is to "Parasite."

    I haven't seen as many films by Park, but I get the same vibes from him as I do Bong. When people talk about "Oldboy," they don't talk about the characters. They talk about the big reveal, because it's a doozy, and they talk about that one incredible tracking shot. I'm not convinced their focus is an indictment of the film overall, though, that somehow renders it a lesser work.

    When it comes to genre, I think both approaches can work, eg: plot versus character, Raymond Chandler vs Agatha Christies, the adaptations of "The Big Sleep" (1946) and "Murder on the Orient Express" (1974), Larry McMurtry vs Louis L'amour, Raphael Sabatini vs Sax Rohmer, "Law and Order" vs "Homicide: Life on the Streets" and "The Wire."
    I agree that Bong and Park are more interested in plot than character, and that this approach can not only work but has some positive artistic consequences: e.g., generic types have an instant legibility that helps to keep the action moving. The downside is that the narrative is less emotionally involving because one doesn't believe as deeply in the characters, especially in films like Oldboy, Lady Vengeance, and Snowpiercer, where narrative and tonal continuity go out the window for the sake of momentary effect. (Oldboy in particular begins promisingly and then rapidly goes downhill as the glut of outrageous plot twists reaches a point of diminishing returns fairly early on.) Moreover, I think there's a distinction to be made between innovators like Wilkie Collins and Dashiell Hammett, who do something new by revising inherited genre conventions, and less original artists like Bong and Park who merely synthesize various off-the-shelf elements.
    Just because...
    The Fabelmans (Steven Spielberg, 2022) mild
    Petite maman (Céline Sciamma, 2021) mild
    The Banshees of Inisherin (Martin McDonagh, 2022) mild

    The last book I read was...
    The Complete Short Stories by Mark Twain


    The (New) World

  24. #70999
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    Quote Quoting baby doll (view post)
    The downside is that the narrative is less emotionally involving because one doesn't believe as deeply in the characters, [...]
    I dunno if that's true, really? At least for me. Maybe because we're talking a different level of engagement. It's hard for me to draw sharp lines, or judge whether engagement is due to detailed characters or something else (plot, celebrity, performance, visuals, themes, etc).

    Recent examples: I became extremely wrapped up in stuff like "The Hanging Tree" (Gary Cooper western), "Walking Tall" (a trashy 70s shitkicker movie), and "Poldark" (a 19th century bodice-ripping mini-series) but I don't know if I'd quantify my reaction as emotional engagement. Maybe I need you to define what you mean there.

    But I mention them because they had good characters and better performances --- similar in my thinking to "La Cérémonie," which I don't think would work nearly as well without Huppert.

    Quote Quoting baby doll (view post)
    Moreover, I think there's a distinction to be made between innovators like Wilkie Collins and Dashiell Hammett, who do something new by revising inherited genre conventions, and less original artists like Bong and Park who merely synthesize various off-the-shelf elements.
    I suppose that depends on the level of innovation and when it was made (like, who's reading Wilkie Collins in the 21st century?).

    But are you saying Chabrol innovated with "La Cérémonie"? It's a better film than "Parasite," sure, but innovative?

    Quote Quoting baby doll (view post)
    The difference is that the characters in Chabrol's film have a specificity that Bong's characters lack: in the history of cinema, there has never been a resentful maid, a batty mail woman, or a smug bourgeois family quite like those in Chabrol's film (this is what I meant by fresh observation)
    Going back a bit, this is true of Huppert's character --- hers is by far the most detailed character --- but it isn't quite true of the others. I think if I dug around, I could find a few cinematic snobs who could best Georges and Catherine Lelievre (somebody in "Rules of the Game," maybe?).

  25. #71000
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    Maaaaaaan some of the more ... interesting ahem interpretations of "Memories of Murder" had me worried so I just rewatched and ... nope. Nothing to be concerned about. Still 10/10 all-star. What a great f'ing movie.

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