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Thread: 28 Film Discussion Threads Later

  1. #69401
    Replacing Luck Since 1984 Dukefrukem's Avatar
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    It hit me very hard as well. I haven't decided if I deserves my top 100 or not yet.
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    Quote Quoting D_Davis (view post)
    Uwe Boll movies > all Marvel U movies
    Quote Quoting TGM (view post)
    I work in grocery. I have not gotten sick. My fellow employees have not gotten sick. If the virus were even remotely as contagious as its being presented as, why haven’t entire store staffs who come into contact with hundreds of people per day, thousands per week, all falling ill in mass nationwide?

  2. #69402
    The Pan megladon8's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Dukefrukem (view post)
    It hit me very hard as well. I haven't decided if I deserves my top 100 or not yet.
    The last 20 minutes or so goes from horrifying to sad so seamlessly.

  3. #69403
    collecting tapes Skitch's Avatar
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    I really enjoyed it as well.

  4. #69404
    The Pan megladon8's Avatar
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    I was today years old when I discovered that Dennis Pennis was British character actor Paul Kaye.

  5. #69405
    Quote Quoting Morris Schæffer (view post)
    I wasn't thinking too hard when I posted that. It was more a realization that several of the actual best picture Oscar winners seem to have fallen by the wayside while others have endured. In 1981, it was Chariots of Fire, in 1982 it was Ghandi, in 1988 it was Rain Man. All fine movies in their own right, but not the ones that have endured, that are regularly named some of the best in their respective genres.

    You're free to name your own faves, I haven't given it any thought which others candidates there where back in those years.
    To expand on my original post now that I've had some time to think the matter over, the point I was trying to make is not necessarily that the films you mentioned are undeserving (I think most of them are good or great and I'm probably wrong about Die Hard), or that my own favourites are intrinsically superior (I think all taste is fundamentally a matter of cultural training: people like the things they're trained to like), but that all of the films you mentioned are to varying degrees representative of a fanboy aesthetic that caters to male fantasies of power and mastery (and for this reason is not fundamentally different from pornography). Again, this is not to say that the individual films you cited are at all bad films, or that the Academy's selections are invariably superior (Jaws is clearly superior as filmmaking to One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest, although I find both films tough to sit through for their depressing subject matter, and Close Encounters can at least hold its own alongside Annie Hall; I have no particular desire to see Chariots of Fire or Gandhi or to re-see Rain Man). Rather, what I would argue is that these films have endured and are regularly named some of the best in their respective genres because of developments in consumerism that began in the mid-1970s, which have educated people (particularly straight white men) to enjoy a particular kind of film emphasizing displays of physical strength and stoicism over the sort of intensely emotional melodramas that tend to win Oscars, and this is why fanboys will never shut up about how Goodfellas should've won the Oscar for best picture but no one will ever complain that Imitation of Life was robbed or that it's such an injustice that Douglas Sirk never won best director.
    Last edited by baby doll; 06-04-2020 at 09:54 AM.
    Just because...
    The Fabelmans (Steven Spielberg, 2022) mild
    Petite maman (Céline Sciamma, 2021) mild
    The Banshees of Inisherin (Martin McDonagh, 2022) mild

    The last book I read was...
    The Complete Short Stories by Mark Twain


    The (New) World

  6. #69406
    Since 1929 Morris Schæffer's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting baby doll (view post)
    To expand on my original post now that I've had some time to think the matter over, the point I was trying to make is not necessarily that the films you mentioned are undeserving (I think most of them are good or great and I'm probably wrong about Die Hard), or that my own favourites are intrinsically superior (I think all taste is fundamentally a matter of cultural training: people like the things they're trained to like), but that all of the films you mentioned are to varying degrees representative of a fanboy aesthetic that caters to male fantasies of power and mastery (and for this reason is not fundamentally different from pornography). Again, this is not to say that the individual films you cited are at all bad films, or that the Academy's selections are invariably superior (Jaws is clearly superior as filmmaking to One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest, although I find both films tough to sit through for their depressing subject matter, and Close Encounters can at least hold its own alongside Annie Hall; I have no particular desire to see Chariots of Fire or Gandhi or to re-see Rain Man). Rather, what I would argue is that these films have endured and are regularly named some of the best in their respective genres because of developments in consumerism that began in the mid-1970s, which have educated people (particularly straight white men) to enjoy a particular kind of film emphasizing displays of physical strength and stoicism over the sort of intensely emotional melodramas that tend to win Oscars, and this is why fanboys will never shut up about how Goodfellas should've won the Oscar for best picture but no one will ever complain that Imitation of Life was robbed or that it's such an injustice that Douglas Sirk never won best director.
    I suppose they should eventually get over that. These are the sort of movies that are usually not recognized by the Academy, and so it feels like rallying against injustice. Maybe these fanboys, of which I have no doubt they exist and can be exhausting, consist of movie lovers too who simply wished the Academy had broadened their horizons a bit (a lot?) more. That's a valid point methinks, no need to stigmatize them as fanboys or drag out the good old blanket statement. People might not complain about 'imitation of life' being robbed because the Academy does usually tend to reward such films. So a rallying cry would be put to better use elsewhere. And sure, this is all personal. Many of the films you mention in your signature I have never heard of. I actually googled 'Die Antigone des Sophokles nach der Hölderlinschen Übertragung für die Bühne bearbeitet von Brecht 1948' moments ago because I couldn't believe that's a thing.
    I think these films have endured because they're great. Developments in consumerism may well have played a role of some kind, but they've endured because they're great movies.

    And for what it's worth, I love Goodfellas, but can get behind Dances With Wolves winning it all.
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  7. #69407
    Quote Quoting Morris Schæffer (view post)
    And for what it's worth, I love Goodfellas, but can get behind Dances With Wolves winning it all.
    Call me a wasp fanboy all you want, but this is among Oscar's most egregious misses.

  8. #69408
    Quote Quoting Morris Schæffer (view post)
    I suppose they should eventually get over that. These are the sort of movies that are usually not recognized by the Academy, and so it feels like rallying against injustice. Maybe these fanboys, of which I have no doubt they exist and can be exhausting, consist of movie lovers too who simply wished the Academy had broadened their horizons a bit (a lot?) more. That's a valid point methinks, no need to stigmatize them as fanboys or drag out the good old blanket statement. People might not complain about 'imitation of life' being robbed because the Academy does usually tend to reward such films. So a rallying cry would be put to better use elsewhere. And sure, this is all personal. Many of the films you mention in your signature I have never heard of. I actually googled 'Die Antigone des Sophokles nach der Hölderlinschen Übertragung für die Bühne bearbeitet von Brecht 1948' moments ago because I couldn't believe that's a thing.
    I think these films have endured because they're great. Developments in consumerism may well have played a role of some kind, but they've endured because they're great movies.

    And for what it's worth, I love Goodfellas, but can get behind Dances With Wolves winning it all.
    To clarify, I'm not trying to stigmatize fanboys or to argue that melodramas are inherently superior to macho action flicks. What interests me is why people like the kinds of movies they like and why certain kinds of films are remembered as classics, my basic premise being that all taste is a matter of cultural training and is therefore historically situated. In other words, there's no such thing as undiluted individual taste independent of cultural training. Thus, a child's enjoyment of a film like Star Wars is not more spontaneous or innocent than an adult's enjoyment of Straub/Huillet's Antigone, which requires certain learned competencies that a child is unlikely to have (e.g., some general knowledge of Sophocles, Hölderlin, and Brecht).

    At the same time, I'm not arguing for a radical relativism that says it's all taste and that no one film is better or worse than any other film, and therefore it's perfectly acceptable to think, for instance, that George Lucas is a greater filmmaker than Kurosawa Akira. My criticism of fanboyism is that, as a consumerist lifestyle choice ("I buy, therefore I am"), it fails to adopt what Roger Ebert would call a generic approach to evaluation, where macho action flicks are evaluated as macho action flicks and melodramas are evaluated as melodramas. Rather, at its most unselfconscious and consumerist, wherein the consumption of a certain kind of film is understood as an expression of personal identity, fanboyism represents an inability or refusal to engage with any movie outside an extremely narrow spectrum, hence the automatic privileging of macho action flicks and mob movies over female-oriented melodramas. Goodfellas is certainly a very good film, possibly Scorsese's best, but the endless whining over it losing a meaningless industry award is wildly disproportionate to its merits (no film could justify this level of bellyaching sustained over thirty years), especially since Time seems to have rendered a pretty definitive verdict on this one: people still remember and watch Goodfellas; Dances with Wolves not so much (I've never seen it). From all the talk of injustice, you'd think that it was Scorsese, rather than Costner, who couldn't get a movie off the ground these days. My theory is that fanboys are still upset about this, less because they think the Academy should honour a wider range of films (fanboy tastes are comparably narrow, if not more so), but more because they take it as an affront to their identity, which they've constructed around acts of consumption.
    Last edited by baby doll; 06-04-2020 at 04:58 PM.
    Just because...
    The Fabelmans (Steven Spielberg, 2022) mild
    Petite maman (Céline Sciamma, 2021) mild
    The Banshees of Inisherin (Martin McDonagh, 2022) mild

    The last book I read was...
    The Complete Short Stories by Mark Twain


    The (New) World

  9. #69409
    Last Seen:
    Why the Hell are You Here, Teacher!? + OVA (H. Kaneko/T. Tokoro, 2018?19) ☆
    The Dangers in My Heart, S2 (H. Akagi, 2024) ☆
    Frieren: Beyond Journey's End, S1 (K. Saitō, 2023?24) ☆
    Knocked Up (J. Apatow, 2007) ☆
    Cobra (G. P. Cosmatos, 1986)
    Lawless (J. Hillcoat, 2012) ☆
    Pantheon, S1 & 2 (C. Silverstein, 2022?23) ☆
    Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Garc?a (S. Peckinpah, 1974)
    Crouching Tiger, Hidden, Dragon (A. Lee, 2000)
    Henry: Portrait of a Serial Killer (J. McNaughton, 1986) ☆

    First time ☆

  10. #69410
    Here till the end MadMan's Avatar
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    Oh man that music video is pretty messed up and still has that powerful shock value.
    BLOG

    And everybody wants to be special here
    They call your name out loud and clear
    Here comes a regular
    Call out your name
    Here comes a regular
    Am I the only one here today?



  11. #69411
    Yup.
    Last Seen:
    Why the Hell are You Here, Teacher!? + OVA (H. Kaneko/T. Tokoro, 2018?19) ☆
    The Dangers in My Heart, S2 (H. Akagi, 2024) ☆
    Frieren: Beyond Journey's End, S1 (K. Saitō, 2023?24) ☆
    Knocked Up (J. Apatow, 2007) ☆
    Cobra (G. P. Cosmatos, 1986)
    Lawless (J. Hillcoat, 2012) ☆
    Pantheon, S1 & 2 (C. Silverstein, 2022?23) ☆
    Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Garc?a (S. Peckinpah, 1974)
    Crouching Tiger, Hidden, Dragon (A. Lee, 2000)
    Henry: Portrait of a Serial Killer (J. McNaughton, 1986) ☆

    First time ☆

  12. #69412
    Does anybody else think Eddie Vedder looks a bit like Donald O'Connor in that video?


    Just because...
    The Fabelmans (Steven Spielberg, 2022) mild
    Petite maman (Céline Sciamma, 2021) mild
    The Banshees of Inisherin (Martin McDonagh, 2022) mild

    The last book I read was...
    The Complete Short Stories by Mark Twain


    The (New) World

  13. #69413
    Maybe a little.
    Last Seen:
    Why the Hell are You Here, Teacher!? + OVA (H. Kaneko/T. Tokoro, 2018?19) ☆
    The Dangers in My Heart, S2 (H. Akagi, 2024) ☆
    Frieren: Beyond Journey's End, S1 (K. Saitō, 2023?24) ☆
    Knocked Up (J. Apatow, 2007) ☆
    Cobra (G. P. Cosmatos, 1986)
    Lawless (J. Hillcoat, 2012) ☆
    Pantheon, S1 & 2 (C. Silverstein, 2022?23) ☆
    Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Garc?a (S. Peckinpah, 1974)
    Crouching Tiger, Hidden, Dragon (A. Lee, 2000)
    Henry: Portrait of a Serial Killer (J. McNaughton, 1986) ☆

    First time ☆

  14. #69414
    Super Moderator dreamdead's Avatar
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    A twitter-run Greatest Films of the 2000s is doing a Twitter-vote starting today to settle on the vote-led winner of best Aughts film, with a round of 64 starting today. Go vote and help Yi Yi not lose in round 1, among others...

    I'm hoping Memories of Murder goes far.
    The Boat People - 9
    The Power of the Dog - 7.5
    The King of Pigs - 7

  15. #69415
    Return of the Sith? Really?
    Last Seen:
    Why the Hell are You Here, Teacher!? + OVA (H. Kaneko/T. Tokoro, 2018?19) ☆
    The Dangers in My Heart, S2 (H. Akagi, 2024) ☆
    Frieren: Beyond Journey's End, S1 (K. Saitō, 2023?24) ☆
    Knocked Up (J. Apatow, 2007) ☆
    Cobra (G. P. Cosmatos, 1986)
    Lawless (J. Hillcoat, 2012) ☆
    Pantheon, S1 & 2 (C. Silverstein, 2022?23) ☆
    Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Garc?a (S. Peckinpah, 1974)
    Crouching Tiger, Hidden, Dragon (A. Lee, 2000)
    Henry: Portrait of a Serial Killer (J. McNaughton, 1986) ☆

    First time ☆

  16. #69416
    Replacing Luck Since 1984 Dukefrukem's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Philip J. Fry (view post)
    Return of the Sith? Really?
    Brokeback Mountain over Dark Knight? Really?
    Twitch / Youtube / Film Diary

    Quote Quoting D_Davis (view post)
    Uwe Boll movies > all Marvel U movies
    Quote Quoting TGM (view post)
    I work in grocery. I have not gotten sick. My fellow employees have not gotten sick. If the virus were even remotely as contagious as its being presented as, why haven’t entire store staffs who come into contact with hundreds of people per day, thousands per week, all falling ill in mass nationwide?

  17. #69417
    They're both pretty good, so no problem for me there.
    Last Seen:
    Why the Hell are You Here, Teacher!? + OVA (H. Kaneko/T. Tokoro, 2018?19) ☆
    The Dangers in My Heart, S2 (H. Akagi, 2024) ☆
    Frieren: Beyond Journey's End, S1 (K. Saitō, 2023?24) ☆
    Knocked Up (J. Apatow, 2007) ☆
    Cobra (G. P. Cosmatos, 1986)
    Lawless (J. Hillcoat, 2012) ☆
    Pantheon, S1 & 2 (C. Silverstein, 2022?23) ☆
    Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Garc?a (S. Peckinpah, 1974)
    Crouching Tiger, Hidden, Dragon (A. Lee, 2000)
    Henry: Portrait of a Serial Killer (J. McNaughton, 1986) ☆

    First time ☆

  18. #69418
    Quote Quoting Dukefrukem (view post)
    Brokeback Mountain over Dark Knight? Really?
    I'll take a successful romantic melodrama over an unsuccessful superhero movie any day of the week.
    Just because...
    The Fabelmans (Steven Spielberg, 2022) mild
    Petite maman (Céline Sciamma, 2021) mild
    The Banshees of Inisherin (Martin McDonagh, 2022) mild

    The last book I read was...
    The Complete Short Stories by Mark Twain


    The (New) World

  19. #69419
    Replacing Luck Since 1984 Dukefrukem's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting baby doll (view post)
    I'll take a successful romantic melodrama over an unsuccessful superhero movie any day of the week.
    You would? Jeeze that's boring. BTW Unsuccessful?
    Twitch / Youtube / Film Diary

    Quote Quoting D_Davis (view post)
    Uwe Boll movies > all Marvel U movies
    Quote Quoting TGM (view post)
    I work in grocery. I have not gotten sick. My fellow employees have not gotten sick. If the virus were even remotely as contagious as its being presented as, why haven’t entire store staffs who come into contact with hundreds of people per day, thousands per week, all falling ill in mass nationwide?

  20. #69420
    collecting tapes Skitch's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Dukefrukem (view post)
    BTW Unsuccessful?
    Its bait.

  21. #69421
    Quote Quoting Dukefrukem (view post)
    You would? Jeeze that's boring. BTW Unsuccessful?
    I wouldn't make any grand claims for Brokeback Mountain, but as an example of its genre, it seems to me unassailable: It's involving and persuasive as storytelling, well acted, and deeply felt. The Dark Knight, on the other hand, is a rather clunky piece of filmmaking, alternating between static, boring scenes of exposition and nearly illegible action sequences. In two and a half hours, Nolan and his collaborators come up with one memorable image--namely, Ledger hanging upside down and seeming to float up--and then they have the actors spend the next five minutes explaining its significance. I find Nolan a somewhat mystifying figure because he's elected to work in a medium (film) for which he seemingly has no natural or acquired aptitude.
    Just because...
    The Fabelmans (Steven Spielberg, 2022) mild
    Petite maman (Céline Sciamma, 2021) mild
    The Banshees of Inisherin (Martin McDonagh, 2022) mild

    The last book I read was...
    The Complete Short Stories by Mark Twain


    The (New) World

  22. #69422
    The Pan megladon8's Avatar
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    While I agree that some of TDK's (and Batman Begins') dialog is clunky as all hell, I am still a pretty big fan of Nolan overall.

    Just the fact that he is (now) making such unique and complex movies within the studio system and using big budgets is impressive and gives hope for the future of the medium surviving beyond superheroes.

    I saw an interview with him recently where he was asked how he was able to get a green light and a huge budget for something as eccentric as Inception, and his reply was "first, you make The Dark Knight".

    He is a smart businessman who capitalized on a popular trend to basically ensure the rest of his career is financed.

  23. #69423
    Quote Quoting megladon8 (view post)
    While I agree that some of TDK's (and Batman Begins') dialog is clunky as all hell, I am still a pretty big fan of Nolan overall.

    Just the fact that he is (now) making such unique and complex movies within the studio system and using big budgets is impressive and gives hope for the future of the medium surviving beyond superheroes.

    I saw an interview with him recently where he was asked how he was able to get a green light and a huge budget for something as eccentric as Inception, and his reply was "first, you make The Dark Knight".

    He is a smart businessman who capitalized on a popular trend to basically ensure the rest of his career is financed.
    I never said Nolan wasn't a smart businessman. That said, what good is it having carte blanche to make whatever film you want if you suck at making films?

    Also, I want to pick at this idea that Nolan is a cause for hope because he makes ambitious films "within the studio system and using big budgets." I don't want to put words in your mouth, but this statement seems to imply either that one can't make unique and complex films outside the studio system with less money or that one can but it's less of an accomplishment than making films inside the system. I find this a dubious proposition on several fronts:

    First, the implication that access to large sums of capital is a prerequisite for making ambitious films. In his autobiography, Buñuel expresses dissatisfaction with El ángel exterminador because he couldn't get his hands on certain props and decorations in Mexico that would've been more easily accessible in Europe (where moreover the sort of aristocracy portrayed in the film actually existed). At the same time, he recalls a meeting with Nicholas Ray where he suggested to the latter that he would be more free making films in Mexico for half the cost of a film made in America. In short, it seems to me that, above a certain moderate economic level, there's less and less artistic advantage in having more money to work with (I believe economists call this the law of diminishing returns). Nolan's films are expensive, I would argue, not of artistic necessity, but for the same reason that Hollywood blockbusters have been expensive since the introduction of the feature film in the 1910s: Because lavish spending is a form of product differentiation and thus good for business. (Tellingly, Ray's reason for not accepting Buñuel's challenge was that it would be bad for his career: "Everyone would think I'm finished!") However, throwing more and more money at the screen is obviously no guarantee of quality and may in fact be harmful: As I've said elsewhere, I can't think of a single great film that cost more than one hundred million dollars.

    Second, that making films for a mass audience more desirable than making films for a niche audience. From a business perspective, this is obviously correct, but as Roger Ebert used to say, "No good film is for everyone. Only bad films are for everyone." Casablanca and Jeanne Dielman, 23, Quai du Commerce, 1080 Bruxelles are both indisputably great movies, but I don't think you can claim that Casablanca is necessarily the better movie because it was made for a mass audience. Or that Orson Welles is a less important filmmaker than Nolan because he was a terrible businessman who ended his career broke, in exile, and left a number of films unfinished because he couldn't raise enough cash to complete them.
    Last edited by baby doll; 06-08-2020 at 11:41 PM.
    Just because...
    The Fabelmans (Steven Spielberg, 2022) mild
    Petite maman (Céline Sciamma, 2021) mild
    The Banshees of Inisherin (Martin McDonagh, 2022) mild

    The last book I read was...
    The Complete Short Stories by Mark Twain


    The (New) World

  24. #69424
    The Pan megladon8's Avatar
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    You're 100% putting words in my mouth.

    First, I don't agree that he's terrible at making films. He's great at making films, he just needs help writing them.

    With regards to my statement about it being hopeful for the future of big budget film - the entire theatrical film experience has been monopolized by Disney and superheroes.

    His last 3 films have been an intellectual space exploration drama, a war film which many consider one of the best ever made (including Quentin Tarantino), and now a time travel-infused espionage thriller.

    Studios are giving him bid budgets to do films without a cape or lightsaber in sight.

    And of course making a film outside of the studio system is no less of an achievement.

    My point is simply that we have had 10 + years of Marvel, Star Wars, and Disney being all that audiences care about. He draws large crowds for films that want the audience to think about something other than "bang! Pow! Kah-blammo!"

  25. #69425
    Quote Quoting Dukefrukem (view post)
    Brokeback Mountain over Dark Knight? Really?
    Yup. With plenty of room to spare.

    And Brokeback Mountain is merely good.
    Last edited by transmogrifier; 06-09-2020 at 02:00 AM.
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