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  1. #69001
    Replacing Luck Since 1984 Dukefrukem's Avatar
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    I just think the movie sucks.
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  2. #69002
    Administrator Ezee E's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Dukefrukem (view post)
    I just think the movie sucks.
    There is that.

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  3. #69003
    Administrator Ezee E's Avatar
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    My Top Ten Spielberg:

    -Catch Me If You Can
    -Close Encounters of the Third Kind
    -Hook
    -Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade
    -Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom
    -Jurassic Park
    -Minority Report
    -Raiders of the Lost Ark
    -Saving Private Ryan
    -Schindler's List

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  4. #69004
    Quote Quoting Grouchy (view post)
    There's an excellent Patrick H. Wilems video addressing this:
    "Movies are not math" - he is taking the entire argument and dumbing it down to the most reductive dimension possible in order to attack it. He also takes for examples some of the most over-discussed, inconsequential "plot holes" because they are easy targets that do not affect the story anyway (why does Buzz freeze, the Star Wars trash compactor... so easy to dismiss because they are irrelevant). His whole argument is flawed and the video is annoying.

    Logical plotting is a skill, and so goddamn satisfying when done right, and frustrating when not. For me, the most frustrating problems with plot are when a someone acts out of character to advance the plot (or fail to establish the motivations for changes in character, as in The Last Jedi, which is a terrible, terrible movie, but then we get into the issue of plot intersecting with characterization), or when something breaks the rules of the established in-movie universe to advance the plot, or when the filmmakers hide information from the audience that all of the on-screen characters know already to create fake interest.... none of these are plot holes, but paying attention to these things in the screenplay is just as important as editing, mise en scene, acting etc. StuSmallz claim that "plot and premise are ....irrelevant in light of the ultimate sensations that movies bring to us as viewers" is simply incorrect. In The Quiet Place, the ending is at odds with what we understand about the universe as presented, so it impacts the overall "ultimate sensations" of the film.
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  5. #69005
    A Platypus Grouchy's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting transmogrifier (view post)
    "Movies are not math" - he is taking the entire argument and dumbing it down to the most reductive dimension possible in order to attack it. He also takes for examples some of the most over-discussed, inconsequential "plot holes" because they are easy targets that do not affect the story anyway (why does Buzz freeze, the Star Wars trash compactor... so easy to dismiss because they are irrelevant). His whole argument is flawed and the video is annoying.

    Logical plotting is a skill, and so goddamn satisfying when done right, and frustrating when not. For me, the most frustrating problems with plot are when a someone acts out of character to advance the plot (or fail to establish the motivations for changes in character, as in The Last Jedi, which is a terrible, terrible movie, but then we get into the issue of plot intersecting with characterization), or when something breaks the rules of the established in-movie universe to advance the plot, or when the filmmakers hide information from the audience that all of the on-screen characters know already to create fake interest.... none of these are plot holes, but paying attention to these things in the screenplay is just as important as editing, mise en scene, acting etc. StuSmallz claim that "plot and premise are ....irrelevant in light of the ultimate sensations that movies bring to us as viewers" is simply incorrect. In The Quiet Place, the ending is at odds with what we understand about the universe as presented, so it impacts the overall "ultimate sensations" of the film.
    I'm of course not claiming that plotting is irrelevant in general (and neither is Willems) but I still haven't heard any convincing argument that The Last Jedi lacks internal logic. Who do you think is acting out of character? Poe Dameron?

  6. #69006
    Quote Quoting Grouchy (view post)
    Who do you think is acting out of character? Poe Dameron?
    I said "fail to establish the motivations for changes in character" with regards to TLJ, and I was referring mainly to Luke. Now, I have absolutely no problems whatsoever with his character ending up where he ends up - characters change, after all - but the way the film gets him there is lazy and unsatisfying (three repeated flashbacks of him standing over Ben) and that's it. Three films of characterization washed away by something the TLJ barely cares enough to explore. Elsewhere, TLJ is plagued with plot choices designed to goose the audience rather than make sense within the context of the film (e.g., Dern's character not letting Poe in on the plan so that the film can waste time pretending she might be a mole, Luke not telling the people in the cave that there was a back entrance to escape from so that Johnson could preserve the gotcha moment that it is a hologram/diversion etc.). The seams show too much for the film to be of any interest to me.
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  7. #69007
    Here till the end MadMan's Avatar
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    I like Spielberg yet he often makes choices that are frustrating. Also there are several of his movies that I have no desire to see whatsoever. I do admire his ability to move between blockbusters and award seasons movies, though, which these days is a gift few if any directors have.
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  8. #69008
    Replacing Luck Since 1984 Dukefrukem's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting transmogrifier (view post)
    I said "fail to establish the motivations for changes in character" with regards to TLJ, and I was referring mainly to Luke. Now, I have absolutely no problems whatsoever with his character ending up where he ends up - characters change, after all - but the way the film gets him there is lazy and unsatisfying (three repeated flashbacks of him standing over Ben) and that's it. Three films of characterization washed away by something the TLJ barely cares enough to explore. Elsewhere, TLJ is plagued with plot choices designed to goose the audience rather than make sense within the context of the film (e.g., Dern's character not letting Poe in on the plan so that the film can waste time pretending she might be a mole, Luke not telling the people in the cave that there was a back entrance to escape from so that Johnson could preserve the gotcha moment that it is a hologram/diversion etc.). The seams show too much for the film to be of any interest to me.
    Don't forget about Finn turning into a suicide bomber out of nowhere and Rose thinking the exact same option was a good idea to SAVe Finn.
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  9. #69009
    A Platypus Grouchy's Avatar
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    I feel like to answer all those separately would turn the thread into a big Last Jedi discussion which wasn't the point, but they all make perfect sense to me. The Dern thing in particular has been addressed to death and the film itself makes it clear she's Poe's superior in hierarchy so she doesn't owe him shit. Maybe the cave one is the closest to an actual plot hole.

  10. #69010
    Sunrise, Sunset Wryan's Avatar
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    Why would Luke know there was a back entrance? Jedis have sonar now?

    "Bitch, do you know how much effort I'm expending to even be here? Now I gotta scan this cavern too?"
    "How is education supposed to make me feel smarter? Besides, every time I learn something new, it pushes some old stuff out of my brain. Remember when I took that home wine-making course and forgot how to drive?"

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  11. #69011
    The Pan megladon8's Avatar
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    I've still not read a single explanation of Dern's actions that made it anything less than crap writing.

    Yeah, Johnson went to great lengths to give a full character arc to every character in the movie. Congrats. The movie was still very dumb, smug, poorly written and horrifically paced

  12. #69012
    A Platypus Grouchy's Avatar
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    Agree to disagree, I guess. I don't think Last Jedi is a masterwork of cinema but Johnson it's clearly the best thing to happen to Star Wars movies... and Disney makes it easy to notice this because of the side-by-side comparison with Abrams' tepid, derivative and amateurish writing.

  13. #69013
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    1. Spielberg lost something with 9/11. I don't know what it was, but he hasn't been the same since.

    2. "A.I." is a bad movie because it has a faulty premise. The protagonist is literally incapable of making choices and choices are the heart of drama. No choice, no drama, no interest. Kubrick and Spielberg should have known better given their collective pedigree and the movie is a reminder that even great artists cannot recover from a bad start.

    3. Patrick Willems is indeed an idiot but that's also the nature of the beast. YouTube is public access television and television is a dumb medium and public access is somehow dumber. I do appreciate the production values on Willem's vids, though, even when he adopts a faux intellectual persona and trolls his own audience by saying shit like "Michael Bay is an artist and we should take him seriously."

    4. Plot matters when it does and doesn't when it doesn't. Depends on the movie, right? I think it's meaningful when the story is structured as a mystery or thriller (which "Quiet Place" definitely was). Otherwise, not so much. E.g.: Plot means nothing in a "Friday the 13th" movie but it's everything in "Psycho," "The Thing," most of Hitchcock's output, and a good half-dozen Agatha Christie adaptations.

  14. #69014
    A Platypus Grouchy's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    2. "A.I." is a bad movie because it has a faulty premise. The protagonist is literally incapable of making choices and choices are the heart of drama. No choice, no drama, no interest. Kubrick and Spielberg should have known better given their collective pedigree and the movie is a reminder that even great artists cannot recover from a bad start.
    That line of thinking is... so dull to say the least, I'm honestly surprised. To quote Patrick H. Willems, "movies are not math". And besides, it's not even true - the entire movie is about the contradictions between our empathy for David as an abandoned child and the fact that he's more like a house appliance than a real child, and of course this is challenged by the screenplay since David does end up making some choices, specially as far as his quest for the Blue Fairy is concerned. I don't know what to tell you other than wow, what a boring way to think about filmmaking and writing in general you seem to have.

    Quote Quoting Irish
    3. Patrick Willems is indeed an idiot but that's also the nature of the beast. YouTube is public access television and television is a dumb medium and public access is somehow dumber. I do appreciate the production values on Willem's vids, though, even when he adopts a faux intellectual persona and trolls his own audience by saying shit like "Michael Bay is an artist and we should take him seriously."
    I love Willems, he's great. What you call "trolling" is far from it - he often picks a difficult position to defend and finds a lot of good arguments for it, which is an exercise in rhetoric that we do quite often around here as well. Not to imply that he doesn't believe these things. And hell, I'd already noticed Michael Bay is indeed what we normally call an auteur even before his video. He's not a generic hack filmmaker like Brett Ratner or F. Gary Gray.

    Quote Quoting Irish
    4. Plot matters when it does and doesn't when it doesn't. Depends on the movie, right? I think it's meaningful when the story is structured as a mystery or thriller (which "Quiet Place" definitely was). Otherwise, not so much. E.g.: Plot means nothing in a "Friday the 13th" movie but it's everything in "Psycho," "The Thing," most of Hitchcock's output, and a good half-dozen Agatha Christie adaptations.
    I mostly agree on principle, just felt like pointing out that plotting is not the main reason to watch most of Hitchcock's output. It's a secondary concern in his most psychological thrillers like Psycho and Marnie and almost an aftertought in his spy yarns like North by Northwest. Hitch himself says as much on his Truffaut dialogues, which is the reason he famously got off in the wrong foot with the most prestigious writers he worked with.

  15. #69015
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    Quote Quoting Grouchy (view post)
    That line of thinking is... so dull to say the least, I'm honestly surprised. To quote Patrick H. Willems, "movies are not math". And besides, it's not even true - the entire movie is about the contradictions between our empathy for David as an abandoned child and the fact that he's more like a house appliance than a real child, and of course this is challenged by the screenplay since David does end up making some choices, specially as far as his quest for the Blue Fairy is concerned. I don't know what to tell you other than wow, what a boring way to think about filmmaking and writing in general you seem to have.
    Drama comes from conflict.

    Conflict comes from a character making a choice and encountering opposition to that choice.

    So if you have a character that is incapable of making a choice, there is no potential for conflict and thus no drama. It's been this way since the Greeks put on those funny masks and hit the boards in Athens 2,500 years ago.

    In a mainstream, commercial genre movie, a lack of inherent drama is pure death.

    There is nothing in opposition to David except circumstance. (His search for the Blue Fairy only serves his fundamental programming. It was also another of Spielberg's broad thematic brushes, and implemented in the dumbest and most obvious way possible).

    I love Willems, he's great. What you call "trolling" is far from it - he often picks a difficult position to defend and finds a lot of good arguments for it, which is an exercise in rhetoric that we do quite often around here as well. Not to imply that he doesn't believe these things. And hell, I'd already noticed Michael Bay is indeed what we normally call an auteur even before his video. He's not a generic hack filmmaker like Brett Ratner or F. Gary Gray.
    He's doing it because he knows it'll get attention, which is the definition of trolling. That's also the nature of the beast. Willems and his peers are stuck talking about mainstream films because that's what their audience knows and watches and that's what gets views and subscriptions. So they always need to come up with a hook and then find a way to justify the hook. It works, but then it's almost always superficial and dumb because they're working at the idea backwards. (It's no accident that Lindsay Ellis also made a 5 part video "essay" about Michael Bay.)

    Michael Bay wouldn't have a career without Jerry Bruckheimer. When Bruckheimer bolted for TV, Bay latched onto "Transformers" and never looked back. That Bay has repeated the same visual style and action motifs for the last 25 years doesn't make him an auteur. It makes him a hack. That is what hacks do, by definition. They repeat themselves because either they're lazy or it's more commercially viable. I don't think Bay is lazy, but he's definitely a hack.

    I mostly agree on principle, just felt like pointing out that plotting is not the main reason to watch most of Hitchcock's output. It's a secondary concern in his most psychological thrillers like Psycho and Marnie and almost an aftertought in his spy yarns like North by Northwest. Hitch himself says as much on his Truffaut dialogues, which is the reason he famously got off in the wrong foot with the most prestigious writers he worked with.
    What? No. "North by Northwest" was written around set pieces that Hitchcock conceived. It's relentlessly plotted so they audience doesn't notice how absolutely silly the story is. But that's fine, because it's also Cary Grant in his prime running around inside a spy thriller.

  16. #69016
    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    1. Spielberg lost something with 9/11. I don't know what it was, but he hasn't been the same since.
    I don't think it was 9/11 per se; I think what happens to a lot of artists as they get older is that the world keeps changing and they don't. (Remember that one of the main criticisms lodged against Eyes Wide Shut at the time of its release was Kubrick's remoteness from New York in 1990s, although for me that's part of its appeal.) If The Terminal seems to me probably the worst of Spielberg's post-2001 films I've seen, it's in large part because his response to the rise of xenophobia in post-9/11 America was to retreat into the sentimentality of Frank Capra's films of the late 1930s and '40s (which themselves mark a steep decline from his best films of the early '30s).

    2. "A.I." is a bad movie because it has a faulty premise. The protagonist is literally incapable of making choices and choices are the heart of drama. No choice, no drama, no interest. Kubrick and Spielberg should have known better given their collective pedigree and the movie is a reminder that even great artists cannot recover from a bad start.
    Is choice really a thing that exists? Does Oedipus choose to want to know who the murderer is or is he just following his fate/programming? I interpret A.I. as a literalization of the conception of the human mind as a computer.
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  17. #69017
    A Platypus Grouchy's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    Drama comes from conflict.

    Conflict comes from a character making a choice and encountering opposition to that choice.

    So if you have a character that is incapable of making a choice, there is no potential for conflict and thus no drama. It's been this way since the Greeks put on those funny masks and hit the boards in Athens 2,500 years ago.

    In a mainstream, commercial genre movie, a lack of inherent drama is pure death.

    There is nothing in opposition to David except circumstance. (His search for the Blue Fairy only serves his fundamental programming. It was also another of Spielberg's broad thematic brushes, and implemented in the dumbest and most obvious way possible).
    Just to make sure we're talking about the same movie, A.I. is about a future with very advanced robots with artificial intelligence in which a couple in danger of losing their only child buys David, a child robot whose prime directive is being a loving son. When their true child recovers they are unable to deal with his jealousy and dump David, who cannot avoid loving his Mom like a real child. So far, that's the first act. The immense dramatic conflict of the movie is then David's quest to become a real boy so that his mother can love him back. The fact that he's a robot doesn't make him a worthless protagonist nor does it render this conflict ineffective - it's kind of the point. What you're saying is equal to condemning Memento for having an amnesiac protagonist or even, I dunno, The Irishman for being about a sociopath. Movies at their best are about making us empathize with circumstances outside ourselves and our world. You might not like the movie and you can even raise some valid points for disliking it but David is as valid a protagonist as anyone else.

    It's also not true that dramatic conflict always comes from a deliberate choice by the protagonist. There are plenty of stories where protagonists don't get to choose their predicament at all.

    Quote Quoting Irish
    He's doing it because he knows it'll get attention, which is the definition of trolling. That's also the nature of the beast. Willems and his peers are stuck talking about mainstream films because that's what their audience knows and watches and that's what gets views and subscriptions. So they always need to come up with a hook and then find a way to justify the hook. It works, but then it's almost always superficial and dumb because they're working at the idea backwards. (It's no accident that Lindsay Ellis also made a 5 part video "essay" about Michael Bay.)
    This much is true, being a YouTuber is a commercial endeavor. Willems even made a video about how the demand to keep his channel active and prolific changed his approach and lifestyle. It doesn't mean he can't make a valid point or pick an interesting subject. In any case, he's certainly less boring than Lindsay Ellis.

    Quote Quoting Irish
    Michael Bay wouldn't have a career without Jerry Bruckheimer. When Bruckheimer bolted for TV, Bay latched onto "Transformers" and never looked back. That Bay has repeated the same visual style and action motifs for the last 25 years doesn't make him an auteur. It makes him a hack. That is what hacks do, by definition. They repeat themselves because either they're lazy or it's more commercially viable. I don't think Bay is lazy, but he's definitely a hack.
    I don't really get the point of your Bruckheimer comment. Tarantino wouldn't have a career if it wasn't for Harvey Weinstein, either.

    And no, you don't understand the definition of hack. It comes from "hack writing", which is writing for hire purely for earning money. It's translated into filmmakers to signify someone who'll be hired to make any movie because he doesn't have a style of his own. This applies to the guys I mentioned (Ratner and Gray) and definitively does not apply to Bay.

    Quote Quoting Irish
    What? No. "North by Northwest" was written around set pieces that Hitchcock conceived. It's relentlessly plotted so they audience doesn't notice how absolutely silly the story is. But that's fine, because it's also Cary Grant in his prime running around inside a spy thriller.
    Exactly, the plot is an afterthought in North by Northwest.
    Last edited by Grouchy; 02-28-2020 at 05:21 PM.

  18. #69018
    A Platypus Grouchy's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting baby doll (view post)
    Is choice really a thing that exists? Does Oedipus choose to want to know who the murderer is or is he just following his fate/programming? I interpret A.I. as a literalization of the conception of the human mind as a computer.
    Exactly, this is one of the most interesting themes in A.I. Well, and most sci-fi about robots, of course.
    Last edited by Grouchy; 02-28-2020 at 05:08 PM.

  19. #69019
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    Quote Quoting baby doll (view post)
    I don't think it was 9/11 per se; I think what happens to a lot of artists as they get older is that the world keeps changing and they don't. (Remember that one of the main criticisms lodged against Eyes Wide Shut at the time of its release was Kubrick's remoteness from New York in 1990s, although for me that's part of its appeal.) If The Terminal seems to me probably the worst of Spielberg's post-2001 films I've seen, it's in large part because his response to the rise of xenophobia in post-9/11 America was to retreat into the sentimentality of Frank Capra's films of the late 1930s and '40s (which themselves mark a steep decline from his best films of the early '30s).
    Something dark happened there --- there's a level of paranoia and hysteria in the movies he made between 2001-5 that doesn't exist elsewhere in his filmography. I assumed it was 9/11 because I've seen him talk about that day during interviews and it seemed the event really fucked him up.

    Is choice really a thing that exists? Does Oedipus choose to want to know who the murderer is or is he just following his fate/programming? I interpret A.I. as a literalization of the conception of the human mind as a computer.
    I mean, you're joking (I think?) but I do believe you could do this movie as something purely anti-narrative or anti-commercial or anti-art and attempt something big and ambitious with it. My personal favorite alternate pitch is "Jeanne Dielman, but all the characters are androids."

    But as a mainstream crowd pleaser? Fuck no.

  20. #69020
    A Platypus Grouchy's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    Something dark happened there --- there's a level of paranoia and hysteria in the movies he made between 2001-5 that doesn't exist elsewhere in his filmography. I assumed it was 9/11 because I've seen him talk about that day during interviews and it seemed the event really fucked him up.
    I really have very little empathy for Americans who were so fucked up by 9/11 yet were perfectly fine with decades and decades of the US fucking up and plundering the rest of the world in every conceivable way. But what you say is interesting - there are some serious stinkers in this period (The Terminal, War of the Worlds) but also some of his best work ever (A.I., Minority Report, Catch Me If You Can).

    Quote Quoting Irish
    I mean, you're joking (I think?) but I do believe you could do this movie as something purely anti-narrative or anti-commercial or anti-art and attempt something big and ambitious with it. My personal favorite alternate pitch is "Jeanne Dielman, but all the characters are androids."

    But as a mainstream crowd pleaser? Fuck no.
    I don't understand what leads you to believe A.I., of all movies, was conceived as a mainstream crowd pleaser. Is it because it cost a lot of money to make?

  21. #69021
    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    Something dark happened there --- there's a level of paranoia and hysteria in the movies he made between 2001-5 that doesn't exist elsewhere in his filmography. I assumed it was 9/11 because I've seen him talk about that day during interviews and it seemed the event really fucked him up.
    It's hard to say since I don't know the guy, but I'm suspicious of using 9/11 as a catch-all explanation for his films (in much the same way that Armond White uses Obama as a catch-all explanation for everything he dislikes in Spielberg's films after 2011). After all, Minority Report was already in pre-production when 9/11 happened and Catch Me if You Can and The Terminal are both fairly light, especially compared with A.I., which was released in July, 2001.

    I mean, you're joking (I think?) but I do believe you could do this movie as something purely anti-narrative or anti-commercial or anti-art and attempt something big and ambitious with it. My personal favorite alternate pitch is "Jeanne Dielman, but all the characters are androids."

    But as a mainstream crowd pleaser? Fuck no.
    First of all, I don't think A.I. was intended as a mainstream crowdpleaser, although one could find a precedent for its false "happy ending" in several Hollywood melodramas by William Wyler and Douglas Sirk. As for the conception of the mind as a computer, it's been the dominant metaphor in neuroscience for decades. This view is not unassailable but it seems in keeping with Kubrick's conception of the mind in both 2001 and The Shining (which subscribes to the ancient Greek conception of hamartia as sort of madness that comes from without).
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  22. #69022
    Replacing Luck Since 1984 Dukefrukem's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Grouchy (view post)
    I really have very little empathy for Americans who were so fucked up by 9/11 yet were perfectly fine with decades and decades of the US fucking up and plundering the rest of the world in every conceivable way. B
    Be careful. You're doing that Meg thing where use blanket statements to indict everyone under the "MERICA" flag, versus an event where the sole purpose was to kill Americans. If you don't want to feel bad for a terrorist attack fine. Keep it to yourself.
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  23. #69023
    A Platypus Grouchy's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Dukefrukem (view post)
    Be careful. You're doing that Meg thing where use blanket statements to indict everyone under the "MERICA" flag, versus an event where the sole purpose was to kill Americans. If you don't want to feel bad for a terrorist attack fine. Keep it to yourself.
    Let me clarify - I understand perfectly well why any human being would feel bad about 9/11 or any other terrorist attack. I don't mean to say anything callous about the very real and innocent people who died. But to have one's worldview changed because of it is to have lived in complete denial of the evil nature of American foreign policy.
    Last edited by Grouchy; 02-28-2020 at 05:47 PM.

  24. #69024
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    Quote Quoting baby doll (view post)
    It's hard to say since I don't know the guy, but I'm suspicious of using 9/11 as a catch-all explanation for his films (in much the same way that Armond White uses Obama as a catch-all explanation for everything he dislikes in Spielberg's films after 2011). After all, Minority Report was already in pre-production when 9/11 happened and Catch Me if You Can and The Terminal are both fairly light, especially compared with A.I., which was released in July, 2001.
    In theory I agree with you about using 9/11 as a catch-all rationale. But then again I also don't know. "Catch Me" and "Terminal" attempt lightness, sure, but there's also something unbearably sad about the characters of Frank Abignale and Viktor Navorski, no matter how much Spielberg softens it.

    "Minority Report" is interesting because the original story is mostly about a guy caught in a sorta cognitive dissonance between his situation and his values. Spielberg turned it into a weird paranoid thriller involving eye surgery and rotten sandwiches.

    First of all, I don't think A.I. was intended as a mainstream crowdpleaser, although one could find a precedent for its false "happy ending" in several Hollywood melodramas by William Wyler and Douglas Sirk. As for the conception of the mind as a computer, it's been the dominant metaphor in neuroscience for decades. This view is not unassailable but it seems in keeping with Kubrick's conception of the mind in both 2001 and The Shining (which subscribes to the ancient Greek conception of hamartia as sort of madness that comes from without).
    "A.I" was a sci-fi movie from a major American director (his first in how many years?) who was also coming off a round of Oscar noms. It was definitely intended for a wide mainstream audience.

    Spielberg doesn't pander (well, usually) but he's definitely a crowd-pleaser down to his bones. Always has been, always will be. He wants the biggest audience he can find, every time outt.

    This is also one of the reasons I don't think "A.I." works on an aesthetic or thematic level. There's something tragic and more than a little creepy about David and everyone he meets (particularly Gigolo Joe) which actively works against the usual Spielberg schmaltz, where he's overtly referencing "Pinocchio" and "Peter Pan" and, again, trying to soften a set of pretty depressing ideas.

    PS: You're referencing famous work, but I can't help but notice that the very famous climax of some features a major character making active choices, from "HERE'S JOHNNY" to "I'm sorry, Dave, I can't do that."

    What's David's moment of decision? He never has one.

  25. #69025
    Quote Quoting Grouchy (view post)
    Let me clarify - I understand perfectly well why any human being would feel bad about 9/11 or any other terrorist attack. I don't mean to say anything callous about the very real and innocent people who died. But to have one's worldview changed because of it is to have lived in complete denial of the evil nature of American foreign policy.
    Evil seems to me something of an overstatement; amoral seems closer to the mark. Basically US foreign policy has one major objective, which is to secure favourable conditions for American business across the globe, irrespective of the human cost.
    Just because...
    The Fabelmans (Steven Spielberg, 2022) mild
    Petite maman (Céline Sciamma, 2021) mild
    The Banshees of Inisherin (Martin McDonagh, 2022) mild

    The last book I read was...
    The Complete Short Stories by Mark Twain


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