28 Film Discussion Threads Later

[Peng]

I still don’t get the thread’s leap from an animated Transformers post to talking about Nolan yet again.

[transmogrifier]

My name's transmogrifier and I have a confession:[

Show Spoiler

I don't get the love for 2001: A Space Odyssey at all

]. A technical marvel for its time, for sure, and some sequences just wash over you pleasantly, but its ideas are pretty shallow, and I can never ever take the opening ape sequence seriously.

[transmogrifier]

Indignation (2016) - couldn't find a thread on this in the yearly database.

73/100


A series of little wars (escaping the grip of your parents, coming to grips with authority, understanding your hormones and those of others) wrapped up in a war of words so delicious that you barely notice the despair creeping in at the edges until it is too late. Schamus is content to take a handful of good actors and sit them down together and let the sparks fly (underrated among them is Linda Emond, who stops time with her monologue near the end), and it works. Sure, it will seem square to some, and a little more thought with regards to editing and mise-en-scene to elevate the themes would have elevated this into the stratosphere, this is still an unexpectedly emotional debut and possible harbinger of good things in Schamus' directorial future.


(Now watch him not make a movie for another 7 years or something.)

[kuehnepips]

I'd much rather re-watch any movie than Nolan's Memento.

[baby doll]

What's the question or idea? That Bay and Nolan are essentially the same director with different types of narrative?

The question is: Why is Nolan so beloved, and Bay so hated, when their styles are not fundamentally different: The same utterly formulaic approach to staging, covering, and editing expositional dialogue scenes; the same kind of blurry, incoherent action sequences where a lot of movement and noise give the spectator a general sense that something is happening even if they can't quite see what it is; the same use of unmotivated camera movements and wall-to-wall music to give each sequence an added "energy"? If there are differences between their styles--and I've already said there are: dark lighting/garish colours; Hans Zimmer's portentous thump thump thumping/Steven Tyler's impassioned yeah pause yeah pause YEEEEAAHHHHHHing--it's a matter of subtle gradations within the same overall approach.

[baby doll]

I still don’t get the thread’s leap from an animated Transformers post to talking about Nolan yet again.

I thought he was talking about the live-action Transformers: The Movie and was miffed that yet again people were using Bay as a punching bag while giving a pass to other contemporary directors when they basically do the same thing.

[Dukefrukem]

Nolan's cuts during exposition are much different than Bay's. Bay takes on a more headstrong approach where Nolan is much more subtle when it comes to dialog. There's zero sexual exploitation and dumb characters in Nolan's work.

And I dont find the staging or editing similar at all. Nolan perspective of time is all over the place, sometimes making it confusing whether it's a flash forward or a flash back. Bay is much more linear. I think Bay has a much better eye for action than Nolan. Aside from the Transformers fighting, when you can't tell WTF is going on, (though you would never know this because you havent seen any of the Transformers movies), I think Bay has the upper hand in action with scenes like the freeway chases in Island, and Bad Boys 2.

[baby doll]

Nolan's cuts during exposition are much different than Bay's. Bay takes on a more headstrong approach where Nolan is much more subtle when it comes to dialog. There's zero sexual exploitation and dumb characters in Nolan's work.

And I dont find the staging or editing similar at all. Nolan perspective of time is all over the place, sometimes making it confusing whether it's a flash forward or a flash back. Bay is much more linear. I think Bay has a much better eye for action than Nolan. Aside from the Transformers fighting, when you can't tell WTF is going on, (though you would never know this because you havent seen any of the Transformers movies), I think Bay has the upper hand in action with scenes like the freeway chases in Island, and Bad Boys 2.

To give a concrete example of what I mean, here are two scenes I found on YouTube, one from Pain and Gain and one from Memento. In both, their respective directors begin with a long shot to establish the overall spatial orientation and then alternate between a variety of singles and inserts (although in the Pain and Gain sequence there are a couple more distant, deep focus shots to capture the interplay between the Rock and Mark Whalberg). Also note the use of long telephoto lenses in the close-ups to flatten space and efface the background. Yes, the characters in Bay's film are stupid and one is a young woman in a bikini, and Nolan throws in some fragmentary flashbacks (also shot in close singles with a long lens), but in terms of filmmaking craft, there's not that big of a difference.

[Dukefrukem]

You're 100% right they do look the same.

[Mysterious Dude]

My name's transmogrifier and I have a confession:[

Show Spoiler

I don't get the love for 2001: A Space Odyssey at all

]. A technical marvel for its time, for sure, and some sequences just wash over you pleasantly, but its ideas are pretty shallow, and I can never ever take the opening ape sequence seriously.

I first saw 2001 when I was in my early teens (back when the year 2001 was still THE FUTURE). I found it really boring. I've seen it several times since then, and while I've learned to appreciate it, I can't quite shake off that first impression -- it's still pretty boring.

[baby doll]

You're 100% right they do look the same.

Oops. here's the clip from Memento I meant to post.

[Dead & Messed Up]

The question is: Why is Nolan so beloved, and Bay so hated, when their styles are not fundamentally different: The same utterly formulaic approach to staging, covering, and editing expositional dialogue scenes; the same kind of blurry, incoherent action sequences where a lot of movement and noise give the spectator a general sense that something is happening even if they can't quite see what it is; the same use of unmotivated camera movements and wall-to-wall music to give each sequence an added "energy"? If there are differences between their styles--and I've already said there are: dark lighting/garish colours; Hans Zimmer's portentous thump thump thumping/Steven Tyler's impassioned yeah pause yeah pause YEEEEAAHHHHHHing--it's a matter of subtle gradations within the same overall approach.

Will look over the clips you linked to and possibly react when I get home from work.

[Grouchy]

I'm with baby doll on this one, Nolan is an inept action filmmaker and an even worse writer, particularly tone deaf when it comes to dialogue and exposition.

And bd, that Pain & Gain scene is pretty fun but you posted it twice and you never linked to any Memento scene.

[Dukefrukem]

I'm with baby doll on this one, Nolan is an inept action filmmaker and an even worse writer, particularly tone deaf when it comes to dialogue and exposition.

If you think his writing is worse than his eye for action, I think you'd be in the minority. I'll even give you exposition, but c'mon, these screenplays are anything but inept.

2017 Dunkirk (written by)
2014 Interstellar (written by)
2013 Man of Steel (story)
2012 The Dark Knight Rises (screenplay) / (story)
2010 Inception (written by)
2008 The Dark Knight (screenplay) / (story)
2006 The Prestige (screenplay)
2005 Batman Begins (screenplay)
2000 Memento (screenplay)
1998 Following (written by)

But even We all agree his action is not that good; Dark Knight Rises being the worse offender in some of the Bane fight scenes.

And bd, that Pain & Gain scene is pretty fun but you posted it twice and you never linked to any Memento scene.

Hence my post.

[baby doll]

And bd, that Pain & Gain scene is pretty fun but you posted it twice and you never linked to any Memento scene.

C'est ici.

Oops. here's the clip from Memento I meant to post.

[baby doll]

If you think his writing is worse than his eye for action, I think you'd be in the minority. I'll even give you exposition, but c'mon, these screenplays are anything but inept.

Regarding Nolan's writing (as opposed to his direction), I would say that he excels at elaborate narrative structures but sucks at writing characters and scenes, which is kind of a big part of writing scripts.

[Dead & Messed Up]

I would agree with the claim that his early action editing is poor (especially in BATMAN BEGINS), I'd add that he made a critical error in over-editing the magic tricks in THE PRESTIGE, but since he's adopted the IMAX format, I've found that he's given his ASL during action scenes room to breathe, and he leveled up by moving from Pfister to Hoytema, and the guy - gasp - even makes use of foreground and background in the same shots now. THE DARK KNIGHT RISES onward, his action work has impressed me. As to his character/story work, I really don't know what to say at the moment except that I disagree and think that MEMENTO, THE DARK KNIGHT, and INCEPTION carry a fairly direct and clear understanding of the characters and how to develop/escalate their dramatic circumstances. Probably THE PRESTIGE too.

I would agree with Baby Doll that his most distinctive authorial touch is his tendency (compulsion) toward nested/fragmented narratives, but sometimes that becomes too much at times, like with the boat sinking at the center of DUNKIRK. (This assumes we're ignoring his other auteurist touch of killing wives or girlfriends for efficient (cheap?) emotional access.)

[Dukefrukem]

Regarding Nolan's writing (as opposed to his direction), I would say that he excels at elaborate narrative structures but sucks at writing characters and scenes, which is kind of a big part of writing scripts.

I would rather have only excellent narrative than only excellent dialog. I think QT is probably the best in the biz when it comes to excelling in both areas but the dialog in Nolan films is tolerable when you throw it into a Nolan story. I wouldn't say it sucks, but I'm sure we can nit pick plenty of examples.

[Neclord]

Y'know, I thought about sharing this yesterday but I hesitated, but anyway, okay. I let The Dark Knight rest for a few years before rewatching it this weekend, and while I am of the opinion Nolan is kind of sloppy for one of few blockbuster auteurs, man, that is a gripping movie god damn it.

[Dead & Messed Up]

I appreciate how Match Cutty it is that this all came from me watching a movie where cartoon robots punch each other to Weird Al music.

[baby doll]

I would rather have only excellent narrative than only excellent dialog. I think QT is probably the best in the biz when it comes to excelling in both areas but the dialog in Nolan films is tolerable when you throw it into a Nolan story. I wouldn't say it sucks, but I'm sure we can nit pick plenty of examples.

Personally I wouldn't want to live in a building that has great pipes and brown water coming out of the tap.

[MadMan]

I like both Bay and Nolan. I don't see how the two compare aside from both having made action blockbusters, though. Bay has way more in common with 80s directors, while Nolan seems intent on channeling old school noir with large helpings of neo noir.

[Dukefrukem]

Personally I wouldn't want to live in a building that has great pipes and brown water coming out of the tap.

It's a good thing we only live in these buildings for roughly 120 minutes at a time.

[Grouchy]

The main problem for me is the lack of real, human dimension there is to his characters and drama and the resulting void of empathy in me as I watch his cinema. They are basically mannequins spouting the nuts and bolts of the plot and the themes. This is true of all his recent movies, from the embarassing speeches about love in Interstellar to the blank heroes of Inception, the most aseptic and boring action flick that takes place inside the dreamscape that can possibly be made.

[Lazlo]

The main problem for me is the lack of real, human dimension there is to his characters and drama and the resulting void of empathy in me as I watch his cinema. They are basically mannequins spouting the nuts and bolts of the plot and the themes. This is true of all his recent movies, from the embarassing speeches about love in Interstellar to the blank heroes of Inception, the most aseptic and boring action flick that takes place inside the dreamscape that can possibly be made.

I'm a bit at a loss as to how you can watch these two scenes from Interstellar and say there's "a lack of real, human dimension" and a "void of empathy."





But, you know, to each his own, I guess.