28 Film Discussion Threads Later

[Izzy Black]

Mononoke is simplistic in that Miyazaki is unabashedly eco-friendly, but I thought it was super-neat how the villains weren't villains, and the heroes weren't always totally likable. I know that's old hat for Miyazaki, and not as sophisticated an observation as one about subtle contrast of images being superior to aggressive symbolism...or what have you...but growing up on Disney animated films, which are more traditional and Manichean, Mononoke threw me for a loop. Also, it's so pretty. So damn pretty. And so good-hearted. And the imagination. Egads. Mononoke and Spirited Away both. I watched them and was blown away by the depth and generosity of their universes. I'd agree that Spirited Away is better, but I don't think the gulf is wide.

I've only seen those two and My Neighbor Totoro, and I've loved all three.

Maybe I'll watch Howl next. I was thinking that or Porco Rosso. That one sounds too wacky to miss. Pigs can't fly airplanes!

Howl isn't as good-hearted, focused, and breathless as Mononoke, so that may not tip in your favor, but I do think it's every bit as imaginative, genuine, pretty, and all the more fascinating. I'm quite fond of My Neighbor Totora. That film and Castle in the Sky are probably my favorites after Howl's, both far subtler and poignant in my view than Mononoke or Spirited Away.

[Izzy Black]

Khitruk isn't overrated. I just wanted to say something.

Lol, OK no problem.

[soitgoes...]

Petrov forever.

[Watashi]

Sure, those movies might be very rewarding and entertaining, but do the stand up with some of the greatest contributions to cinema? Do the stir and arouse the deep emotions and insights of great art? .

Yes. I would argue movies like the Toy Story trilogy, WALL-E, and the two Bird films (The Incredibles and Ratatouille) tap into emotional corners that very few modern animated movies go into. I don't see why they need to be on the level of Hou Hsiao-Hsien or Wong Kar-Wai or whomever. Two different audiences. The genius of Pixar (maybe not recently) and Miyazaki is that they ignore demographics and treat children and adults as one and the same.

[Watashi]

Also, bullocks to this supposed "greatest contributions of cinema". If you look around critics lists and "best movies evah", you'll usually find Snow White and the Seven Dwarves on top of most lists as best animated film. While that film is very beautiful to look at, it is so shallow and offers ZERO insight beyond its fairy tale roots. Compare that to Pinocchio, Bambi, or other Disney films that get less conversation, it's pointless trying to label something as a "great contribution of cinema."

[Izzy Black]

Yes. I would argue movies like the Toy Story trilogy, WALL-E, and the two Bird films (The Incredibles and Ratatouille) tap into emotional corners that very few modern animated movies go into. I don't see why they need to be on the level of Hou Hsiao-Hsien or Wong Kar-Wai or whomever. Two different audiences. The genius of Pixar (maybe not recently) and Miyazaki is that they ignore demographics and treat children and adults as one and the same.

First, I would be inclined to agree with you about Wall-E (one of the only Pixar films to crack one of my year-end lists), and maybe the first Toy Story movie. I'm much less impressed with Bird's movies artistically, but they're rather entertaining (I should note that Miyazaki puts most if not all of these movies to shame). But my point here is mostly a response to criticism against my list for not including animated films, and moreover, my general tendency to evaluate recent animation on the same level as other films. That's all I've tried to explain. If certain films have no interest in striving to that level, then that's fine by me, but my judgments are always going to favor those films that do.

[Raiders]

Bird hasn't even come close to matching either Family Dog or The Iron Giant since. I'm a huge fan of Pixar as is well documented, and greatly enjoy both of Bird's contributions, but for sure they do not have the emotional complexity (yet narrative simplicity) of either of those first two works (the first of which is only a 30 minute contribution to Amazing Stories, but is ridiculously good). His two Pixar films are certainly more archetypal in nature.

[Izzy Black]

Also, bullocks to this supposed "greatest contributions of cinema". If you look around critics lists and "best movies evah", you'll usually find Snow White and the Seven Dwarves on top of most lists as best animated film. While that film is very beautiful to look at, it is so shallow and offers ZERO insight beyond its fairy tale roots. Compare that to Pinocchio, Bambi, or other Disney films that get less conversation, it's pointless trying to label something as a "great contribution of cinema."

And that's why it would be wrong to include that film and you would be right to criticize them for it. That's why it doesn't crack my year end top 10, but Pinocchio, for instance, does (it's among my top 100 films of all time).

But I disagree with you that it's pointless to try and figure out which films are a great contribution to cinema. Assessment of artistic greatness is simply the business of art criticism. I don't think it's meaningless.

[Izzy Black]

Bird hasn't even come close to matching either Family Dog or The Iron Giant since. I'm a huge fan of Pixar as is well documented, and greatly enjoy both of Bird's contributions, but for sure they do not have the emotional complexity (yet narrative simplicity) of either of those first two works (the first of which is only a 30 minute contributed to Amazing Stories, but is ridiculously good). His two Pixar films are certainly more archetypal in nature.

Unfortunately, I've seen neither of those films. I'll check them out.

[Russ]

Fyodor Khitruk is also one of my favorite filmmakers of all time. История одного преступления is a masterpiece and Фильм, фильм, фильм is genius.

Have you seen his Vinni-Pukh short films? For ostensibly children's cartoons, they're fantastic. I absolutely love them. They're the only things of his that I've seen, though. I will track down your recommendations.

For those not familiar, Vinni-Pukh = Winnie the Pooh.

(Thanks to our own Hugh_Grant, who turned me on to them)

Here's a sample (w/English subs). Piglet is awesome.

[Izzy Black]

Have you seen his Vinni-Pukh short films? For ostensibly children's cartoons, they're fantastic. I absolutely love them. They're the only things of his that I've seen, though. I will track down your recommendations.

For those not familiar, Vinni-Pukh = Winnie the Pooh

I completely adore his Винни-Пух shorts. They're also a great example of his style of animation. As for his more adult fare, I also recommend Человек в рамке (Man in the Frame), but it's pretty abstract compared to his other works. It's still very interesting. Lastly, I recommend Остров (Island), which I actually recommend seeing before any of the others because it's probably his most accessible film and also the best introduction to his overarching thematic concerns (modern self-interest). Here it is on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPR-RHm2GqQ

I'm sure you can find most (if not all) of these online somewhere.

[transmogrifier]

Unfortunately, I've seen neither of those films. I'll check them out.

The Iron Giant is better than anything Pixar has done.

[Qrazy]

Ugh. There's so much I disagree with in these past few pages but I know I don't have the energy for an extended argument/discussion so I'll just leave off with boo-urns.

[Irish]

Gotta agree with Watashi. "Toy Story" says more about human nature that most films even consider, much less attempt. And it does this in just over an hour run time.

(The tragedy of that movie is that it's stuck in 1995 CGI. In twenty years, people will look at it like we look at something like "ReBoot" now).

[Stay Puft]

The tragedy of that movie is that it's stuck in 1995 CGI.

Already been addressed.

[Irish]

Already been addressed.

Holy shit, what a great find. That's completely psychotic.

[Izzy Black]

Gotta agree with Watashi. "Toy Story" says more about human nature that most films even consider, much less attempt. And it does this in just over an hour run time.

(The tragedy of that movie is that it's stuck in 1995 CGI. In twenty years, people will look at it like we look at something like "ReBoot" now).

But there was no disagreement about Toy Story. I think most people agree it reflects the best of Pixar and is a hallmark in animation. I'm much less sold on its sequels than Pixar apologists are, but that's another matter.

Also, what's this about its '95 animation? I think the CGI of the original Toy Story looks fabulous. Newer CGI isn't necessarily better. The CGI of Jurassic Park case in point.

[Irish]

But there was no disagreement about Toy Story. I think most people agree it reflects the best of Pixar and is a hallmark in animation. I'm much less sold on its sequels than Pixar apologists are, but that's another matter.

Did I misread? Your statement was about animated films that "receive extreme amounts of praise, especially of the Pixar variety." You asked a question about whether those films "stand up with some of the greatest contributions to cinema."

I'm not as enthusiastic about the sequels as Watashi seems to be, but I think he makes a good point: "Toy Story" very definitely stands up.

Also, what's this about its '95 animation? I think the CGI of the original Toy Story looks fabulous. Newer CGI isn't necessarily better. The CGI of Jurassic Park case in point.

It looks increasingly dated. It even looks dated compared to its immediate sequel, which was made less than half a decade later. I can't imagine how eye-popping and beautiful animated films are going to look in 2033.

[Winston*]

It looks increasingly dated. It even looks dated compared to its immediate sequel, which was made less than half a decade later. I can't imagine how eye-popping and beautiful animated films are going to look in 2033.

It's going to be harder and harder to distinguish the visuals in animated films from the teals and oranges of real life.

[Watashi]

I thought it was common knowledge that the second Toy Story was the best of the trilogy.

[Dead & Messed Up]

I thought it was common knowledge that the second Toy Story was the best of the trilogy.

As did I.

Then again, my favorite Pixar is Finding Nemo, so I'm already a minority voice on the subject.

[Izzy Black]

Did I misread? Your statement was about animated films that "receive extreme amounts of praise, especially of the Pixar variety." You asked a question about whether those films "stand up with some of the greatest contributions to cinema."

I'm not as enthusiastic about the sequels as Watashi seems to be, but I think he makes a good point: "Toy Story" very definitely stands up.

Well, I agreed with Watashi that Toy Story is an example of good Pixar film worthy of great consideration, but my point was that most of these films (not all) are not in that class. Toy Story seems to me to be an outlier.

It looks increasingly dated. It even looks dated compared to its immediate sequel, which was made less than half a decade later. I can't imagine how eye-popping and beautiful animated films are going to look in 2033.

I don't agree. I love the style of Toy Story. It's also groundbreaking in a lot of ways.

[Izzy Black]

I thought it was common knowledge that the second Toy Story was the best of the trilogy.

I prefer #1.

[Izzy Black]

By the way, for some reason "less than half a decade" seems to me like a longer time than just saying 4 years later.

[EyesWideOpen]

As did I.

Then again, my favorite Pixar is Finding Nemo,

Gross.