28 Film Discussion Threads Later

[transmogrifier]

The subject of those two statements is different. One is talking about the movie and the other is talking about the viewer. Also, one is uglier. Hint: it's the one with more words that makes fewer assumptions.

Wow, your paranoia runs deep on this issue. Both statements are talking about the movie - just in different ways using different rhetorical devices. I may have teased you in the past about your love for certain movies, but this is the first time I actually think you are totally off-base.

It is a RHETORICAL device. The use of "you" does NOT literally mean that the reader will absolutely feel confused when they come to watch the movie. Seriously, it just doesn't. Never has, never will.

EDIT: To help you out, in general the use of "you" in the simple present tense in writing (e.g. This restaurant always treats you well) indicates that "you" is being used like "anyone", or referring to an unspecified individual or group of individuals. This is a very common usage, been around for centuries ("You know, the more you think about it, the more common it appears")

However, used in the future tense, "you" almost always indicates a specific person (in the case of criticism, the reader)

So there is a clear difference between:

"This movie grabs you by the throat and never lets go"
and
"This movie will grab you by the throat and never let go"

Some reviewers may well be guilty of using the latter, and fair enough for disliking it. But the former, the one that I've been using, is common, non-threatening or assumptive, and in many ways very elegant (though my example is not; I do not condone the use of that particular phrase, just the use of "you" within it).

So, in other words, get over it.

[dmk]

Maudlin is about the last word I'd use to describe that movie.

Agreed.

You are kidding, right? The film with Robin Williams? The one where his son dies and everyone gives him a high-five and a hug in slow-motion to instrumental music?

It’s 40% dick jokes and 60% sap. This is Bobcat’s style and basis, you can’t just deny it like you deny your existence. Sleeping Dogs Lie is meeker, evenly supplying jokes about bestiality with its saccharine sentiment, but even then it's tonally half-assed. I guess it’s a little interesting as a result. Also, a lot of people with bad taste loved it at MIFF last year, so I'll have that as a backup.

[balmakboor]

I didn't realize Miss Congeniality was such a collector's item. It is selling used for one billion dollars.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=amb_link...30&sort=-price

[Idioteque Stalker]

The one where his son dies and everyone gives him a high-five and a hug in slow-motion to instrumental music?

It works brilliantly because of the context of his relationship with his son/writing career. The only reason that movie isn't completely awesome is Williams' revelation and what not near the end, in which your misplaced criticism is warranted.

[Russ]

I didn't realize Miss Congeniality was such a collector's item. It is selling used for one billion dollars.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=amb_link...30&sort=-price

Well it *is* the deluxe edition.

[Dead & Messed Up]

It is a RHETORICAL device. The use of "you" does NOT literally mean that the reader will absolutely feel confused when they come to watch the movie. Seriously, it just doesn't. Never has, never will.

I can understand Sven's frustration. I try to avoid the second-person altogether, since it has an assumptive quality that disagrees with me. Other ways of writing work better. I don't think that it's bunching-of-the-undies worthy, though; I reserve that level of anger for "needless to say" and "could care less."

[Boner M]

You are kidding, right? The film with Robin Williams? The one where his son dies and everyone gives him a high-five and a hug in slow-motion to instrumental music?

It’s 40% dick jokes and 60% sap. This is Bobcat’s style and basis, you can’t just deny it like you deny your existence. Sleeping Dogs Lie is meeker, evenly supplying jokes about bestiality with its saccharine sentiment, but even then it's tonally half-assed. I guess it’s a little interesting as a result. Also, a lot of people with bad taste loved it at MIFF last year, so I'll have that as a backup.

It's rudimentary filmmaking and those music montages are bad except for the Akron/Family one that ends the first act, but Williams is excellent and the scenes between him and his son just sting with truth, esp. Williams' stoned bedside chat with him. Dunno how you can take issue with 'sap' when the kid has basically no redeeming qualities whatsoever. I kept nervously waiting for a moment when he's granted a moment of humanity, and was impressed that Goldthwait held back. Anyway I'll just do the lazy thing and quote this perfect paragraph from Sicinski:

But what WGD gets right, with a jarring precision, is the gulf between who our family members are and who we wish they were. Lance Clayton (Robin Williams) knows full well that his son Kyle (a transformed, post-pubescent Daryl Sabara) is a complete asshole. (In one sense, WGD is almost like a Rosencrantz and Guildenstern riff on Rushmore, opting to follow the "inner life" of one of Bill Murray's dickwad sons instead of Max Fischer.) When Kyle dies as a result of a humiliating accident, Lance is devastated, not only for the loss of the son he truly loved but for the loss of hope, the loss of future potential. Naturally this is true of all parents who lose children, but part of what Goldthwait is showing here is that Lance has lost any chance that Kyle would ever be fundamentally worthwhile. He knows his son was worthless, which of course doesn't mitigate his basic fatherly love for the boy. And so, in an act of almost indistinguishable selfishness and generosity, Lance seizes the opportunity to "remake" Kyle as someone he and others could be proud of.

[Qrazy]

I reserve that level of anger for "needless to say" and "couldn't care less."

Um... there's nothing wrong with either of those?

[Spinal]

I was going to post Movieline's Top 10 Twist Endings of the Decade, but then High Tension was on there at #4 and I decided that I couldn't possibly endorse that.

[Idioteque Stalker]

I was going to post Movieline's Top 10 Twist Endings of the Decade, but then High Tension was on there at #4 and I decided that I couldn't possibly endorse that.

My ambivalence toward this list and twist endings in general was belied by my astounding eagerness to see what was on it. And I just got rickroll'd thanks to you.

[Spinal]

And I just got rickroll'd thanks to you.

Yeah, that was the other reason I didn't post it.

[Sven]

So, in other words, get over it.

Thanks for the help.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Um... there's nothing wrong with either of those?

"Needless to say" pisses me right the fuck off, because if it's needless to say, what the hell is the author doing saying it? Why is he or she wasting my time? I thought the point they were making was needless to say.

And I meant to write "could care less." Which is even worse.

[transmogrifier]

"Needless to say" pisses me right the fuck off, because if it's needless to say, what the hell is the author doing saying it? Why is he or she wasting my time? I thought the point they were making was needless to say.

And I meant to write "couldn't care less." Which is even worse.

People who take turns of phrase literally and get angered by them confuse me.

"If you ask me -"
"I didn't ask you! Go to hell!"

"Well, in my opinion -"
"Of course it's your opinion, you're talking, ain't ya!" Go take a flying fuck at a rolling donut!"

"Young actresses are a dime a dozen in Hollywood"
"What the fuck are you talking about!! Even the worst off actress would earn thousands of dollars a year, you mutherfucker!"

[transmogrifier]

Thanks for the help.

Assuming you read the rest of the post, you're welcome.

PS: In this case, "you" means you, Sven. In case you were wondering.

[Rowland]

I kept nervously waiting for a moment when he's granted a moment of humanity, and was impressed that Goldthwait held back:

I thought the dinner scene between Williams, Sabara, and the girlfriend showed the slighted glimmer of humanity in Sabara, so that while he was hardly redeemed, he nevertheless displayed some glimmer of potential for being a real person instead of the monster he was otherwise portrayed as. It was minor, but a rather touching grace note all the same. And yeah, what the film mostly had going for it otherwise were the performances by Sabara and especially Williams. The second half was pretty lame though.

[Rowland]

Man, I absolutely LOVE this movie. Absoultely, gloriously over the top.

Yep, it's a lot of fun. Ditto the overlooked District 13: Ultimatum, another product of the Luc Besson factory from last year.

[Qrazy]

"Needless to say" pisses me right the fuck off, because if it's needless to say, what the hell is the author doing saying it? Why is he or she wasting my time? I thought the point they were making was needless to say.

And I meant to write "couldn't care less." Which is even worse.

Because the meaning of the phrase is that it's so self-evident you need not say it and yet the individual is saying it regardless. 'It may be needless to say, but I'll say it anyway, hand guns kill people... so stop buying them people!'

You did write couldn't care less the first time and there's still nothing wrong with it.

[Boner M]

The Docks of New York - Was expecting this to be a dreamy, unabashedly sentimental lost-soul romance along the lines of Frank Borzage, and though it is plenty atmospheric, I was taken aback by how understated the central relationship is. There's a scene early on with George Bancroft exhaling cigarette smoke amidst a cloud of fake fog, and it's a perfect encapsulation of Sternberg's blend of the the earthbound and the dreamily abstract; a mixture of ships-passing-in-the-night swooniness and the mundane reality of labor. The attempted suicide scene is a doozy of formal mastery, but two mirroring camera moves also stand out - a backward tracking through a bar, and later through a courtroom - the implications of this visual echo sent me into a melancholy daze.

Under the Sun of Satan - Pialat mostly abandons his usual crude, impressionistic realism for elegant classicism married jarringly to an almost Brechtian approach, in this story of a country priest's crisis of faith. Dreyer and Bresson come to mind, naturally, and the anti-illusion, alienation effects and focus on blunt materiality reminiscent of the former (rarely has weather being rendered so tactilely) are perfectly in sync with the film's aura of godlessness. Took me a while to get into the groove of the whole thing - the theological dialogues seeming clunky until it clicked that Pialat wasn't going for naturalism, but it's an undeniably intriguing film that deserves a repeat viewing.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Because the meaning of the phrase is that it's so self-evident you need not say it and yet the individual is saying it regardless.

This isn't a counter-argument; it's just a re-phrasing of what I said. Explain to me the value of "needless to say" as a phrase, other than as an apologetic for what the author admits is unnecessary.

You did write couldn't care less the first time and there's still nothing wrong with it.

Wait a second.

This site auto-corrects to "couldn't care less."

I thought I was going crazy for a second there.

Anyway, the phrase I was referring to subtracts the "n't" from "couldn't."

[Sven]

PS: In this case, "you" means you, Sven. In case you were wondering.

It's an irritation. I'm not an idiot.

[Qrazy]

This isn't a counter-argument; it's just a re-phrasing of what I said. Explain to me the value of "needless to say" as a phrase, other than as an apologetic for what the author admits is unnecessary.

I just don't see it as much different from... beyond any doubt, obviously, without question... plus with needless to say you can use it ironically which is harder to do with obviously. For instance... 'I got a girl's number last night. But when I dialed it I got a voicemail for an animal shelter. Needless to say, I am the world's greatest pick up artist of all time.'

Wait a second.

This site auto-corrects to "couldn't care less."

I thought I was going crazy for a second there.

Anyway, the phrase I was referring to subtracts the "n't" from "couldn't."

Ahaha okay yes, in that case I agree.

[Dead & Messed Up]

I just don't see it as much different from... beyond any doubt, obviously, without question

All of those put emphasis on certainty, not necessity.

... plus with needless to say you can use it ironically which is harder to do with obviously. For instance... 'I got a girl's number last night. But when I dialed it I got a voicemail for an animal shelter. Needless to say, I am the world's greatest pick up artist of all time.'

I think "clearly" works better in that situation than "needless to say."

Anyway, semantic digression. Back to what matters:

I like movies.

[B-side]

It's hard to assess Two Rode Together in the context of Ford's filmography as it doesn't feel all that much like a Ford film. Formally, it feels purely paint by numbers. No Ford landscapes or iconography, mostly just intimate racially-tinged drama. It's easily the harshest and most cynical Ford I've seen, which lends itself to some great humor early on. Unfortunately, though I'd say the content is characteristic of the changing sensibilities of the western and Ford's aging, it lacks the overarching emotional sweep I love about his work. Maybe it feels too calculated. There are great moments in it, however, that do encompass that emotional sweep. Too few and far between, though. Stewart is very entertaining.

[Raiders]

B-side, you gotten to The Sun Shines Bright yet? Of all the Fords I have yet to see, it is the most intriguing to me and I have seen a lot of love for it in certain critical circles.