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Thread: 28 Film Discussion Threads Later

  1. #69151
    Quote Quoting Skitch (view post)
    I dont know if its plotting or what, but I was annoyed by Quiet Place. Just go live by the waterfall, you dumbasses? Seems a lot better chance for survival than trying to live a silent life, especially with a deaf kid.
    This is one of the complaints I've seen the most about AQP, one that I think is very telling to the level of nit-picking we're talking about with the complaints about how the holes/implausibilities "ruin" the film, because the answer to it is so incredibly obvious, to the point that applying just 10% of the same scrutiny to it that has been directed to the film itself instantly invalidates it:

    They can't live next to the waterfall because they have no long-term shelter there, and living there would entail setting up some sort of temporary set-up, like say, a tent, which is obviously much more difficult to stay warm, safe, quiet (which is kind of important in this film), or dry in than a big, sturdy house, with that last point being particularly important if they were right next to to a source of water that would naturally get flooded out in heavy rain, something they would run the risk of even in a big, sturdy house, let alone a flimsy piece of fabric that could get blown away by a stiff breeze, one that's already huddled underneath a forest of trees and heavy branches that, on a long enough timeline, will eventually fall and squash someone. It's either that, or, as a family comprised of three children, a pregnant woman, and a non-construction working, engineer father (just like my own dad, who, even as a big DIY-er, still had to hire outside, professional help to build his current home), they somehow find a way to transport all the necessary materials, learn the required knowledge in a post-Internet age, and obtain the manpower needed to not only build a solid house there from scratch, but also do so without once making enough noise to be discovered over the sound of the waterfall (which would be an extremely difficult thing to guarantee, because, speaking as someone who's helped build a house firsthand before, it's often a fairly noisy process, much louder than, say, the sound of one person shouting, even if they somehow tried to build and maintain the house directly beneath the waterfall itself, which would also be a ridiculous idea).

    No offense, but having to state any of this at all honestly makes me feel like Lisa when Krusty attempted a comeback through observational comedy, and he says "Have you ever noticed how there are TWO phone books, a white one, and yellow one? I mean, what's the deal with that??":





    Last edited by StuSmallz; 03-05-2020 at 07:27 AM.

  2. #69152
    Quote Quoting StuSmallz (view post)
    I mean, no one comes out of Raiders Of The Lost Ark saying "Hey, that movie was so exhilarating; the plot made so much sense!" No one comes out of Alien saying "That was so terrifying; the implied backstory behind the Xenomorphs was so logical!". No one comes out of The Godfather saying "That movie was so dramatic; the logistics of the move against Don Corleone were so un-confusing!".
    No one comes out of them saying "I'm not sure how the alien learnt English fast enough to hold full conversations" or "I don't know why Michael left his family to audition in off-Broadway productions" either. Why not? Because the plot is constructed carefully to support the atmosphere, themes, characterization etc.

    Quote Quoting StuSmallz (view post)
    No, they come out of those movies praising them because their plots/premises are a means to an end to what truly makes movies great, which are the underlying feelings they ultimately leave us with, whether they be excitement, horror, dramatic effect, or something else
    Literally every single element of a film is a means to an end for those things. And if it is true that those elements act to create those sensations, it stands to reason that individual elements can act to break the sensations that the other elements are working towards. Can a poor plot derail the overall "sensation" of a film? Of course it can. Not all the time, and not for all people, but of course it can.

    Quote Quoting StuSmallz (view post)
    But, it's supposed to make sense when people try to flip that logic around, and act like plot holes are all of a sudden a make-or-break deal for movies.....
    This is a very different claim to what you wrote earlier, key parts highlighted in bold:

    Quote Quoting StuSmallz (view post)
    Because plot and premise are mere means to an end, because they're irrelevant in light of the ultimate sensations that movies bring to us as viewers...
    Absolutely not. A plot hole =/= plot and premise.
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  3. #69153
    Quote Quoting StuSmallz (view post)
    No offense, but having to state any of this at all honestly makes me feel like Lisa when Krusty attempted a comeback through observational comedy, and he says "Have you ever noticed how there are TWO phone books, a white one, and yellow one? I mean, what's the deal with that??"
    I'm of the belief that someone who truly didn't care about plot holes wouldn't spend nearly as much time trying to explain them.
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  4. #69154
    Quote Quoting StuSmallz (view post)
    plot/premise logic never fundamentally break a film, because they never fundamentally make one.
    This seems like a personal preference rather than a universal dogma.

  5. #69155
    Evil mind, evil sword. Ivan Drago's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting TGM (view post)
    Anyone else ever inadvertently had the movie theater entirely all to their own for a screening?
    Just three lovely times: Hot Fuzz, MacGruber and Gemini Man in high frame rate 3D.
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  6. #69156
    I had a near empty one on Scott Pilgrim Vs. The World.
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  7. #69157
    collecting tapes Skitch's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting StuSmallz (view post)
    This is one of the complaints I've seen the most about AQP, one that I think is very telling to the level of nit-picking we're talking about with the complaints about how the holes/implausibilities "ruin" the film, because the answer to it is so incredibly obvious, to the point that applying just 10% of the same scrutiny to it that has been directed to the film itself instantly invalidates it:

    They can't live next to the waterfall because they have no long-term shelter there, and living there would entail setting up some sort of temporary set-up, like say, a tent, which is obviously much more difficult to stay warm, safe, quiet (which is kind of important in this film), or dry in than a big, sturdy house, with that last point being particularly important if they were right next to to a source of water that would naturally get flooded out in heavy rain, something they would run the risk of even in a big, sturdy house, let alone a flimsy piece of fabric that could get blown away by a stiff breeze, one that's already huddled underneath a forest of trees and heavy branches that, on a long enough timeline, will eventually fall and squash someone. It's either that, or, as a family comprised of three children, a pregnant woman, and a non-construction working, engineer father (just like my own dad, who, even as a big DIY-er, still had to hire outside, professional help to build his current home), they somehow find a way to transport all the necessary materials, learn the required knowledge in a post-Internet age, and obtain the manpower needed to not only build a solid house there from scratch, but also do so without once making enough noise to be discovered over the sound of the waterfall (which would be an extremely difficult thing to guarantee, because, speaking as someone who's helped build a house firsthand before, it's often a fairly noisy process, much louder than, say, the sound of one person shouting, even if they somehow tried to build and maintain the house directly beneath the waterfall itself, which would also be a ridiculous idea).

    No offense, but having to state any of this at all honestly makes me feel like Lisa when Krusty attempted a comeback through observational comedy, and he says "Have you ever noticed how there are TWO phone books, a white one, and yellow one? I mean, what's the deal with that??":
    I just feel the characters lacked some common sense, so it was difficult to feel for them. Would it be difficult to build a habitat? Sure. You also have a newborn on the way, your plan is to drug it to never cry? I think its wild to think that makes more sense then trying to build.

    As for being "so incredibly obvious", the dude was obviously wrong [
    ]

    And I'm not saying its a fault of the film or filmmaking. I'm saying its why I didn't connect with it or the characters.

  8. #69158
    collecting tapes Skitch's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Philip J. Fry (view post)
    I had a near empty one on Scott Pilgrim Vs. The World.
    Me too. Had a couple hours to kill in Cleveland. Meh, I'll give it a shot because of the director. There were about 2-3 other dudes in (a very large) theater (it was middle of a weekday). About halfway through, me and these total strangers starting looking around at each other and saying stuff like "this...this is brilliant". Its great sharing moments with strangers that is so unexpected and like-minded. Favorite film of that year.

  9. #69159
    Administrator Ezee E's Avatar
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    Well, they did have the basement bunker which didn't emit any noise. They just chose to live around the house a lot.

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  10. #69160
    Here till the end MadMan's Avatar
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    Horror movies usually don't rely on logic. If they did slasher movies would be 10 minutes long. Which gives me the idea of a joke short where the campers decide to listen to the warning guy and go home. Meanwhile the killer goes to his shack all depressed. I never said it was a good idea.
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  11. #69161
    Quote Quoting Mr. McGibblets (view post)
    This seems like a personal preference rather than a universal dogma.
    But if that's the case, then why do we never see anyone applying the reverse of that argument (that logical plots can make a movie great) to a film?
    Quote Quoting transmogrifier (view post)
    No one comes out of them saying "I'm not sure how the alien learnt English fast enough to hold full conversations" or "I don't know why Michael left his family to audition in off-Broadway productions" either. Why not? Because the plot is constructed carefully to support the atmosphere, themes, characterization etc.

    Literally every single element of a film is a means to an end for those things. And if it is true that those elements act to create those sensations, it stands to reason that individual elements can act to break the sensations that the other elements are working towards. Can a poor plot derail the overall "sensation" of a film? Of course it can. Not all the time, and not for all people, but of course it can.

    This is a very different claim to what you wrote earlier, key parts highlighted in bold:

    Absolutely not. A plot hole =/= plot and premise.
    Both of those hypotheticals would, at the very least, almost certainly severely hurt their respective movies, but not because either of them would inherently be plot holes (because they're not); the latter deals with the vague concept of the learning ability of an alien species we know nothing about, so there would be no reason for us to assume what a plausible length of time it would be for the Alien to "learn English" (which partly ties into why the supposed plot "hole" during the climax of A Quiet Place isn't really a hole), while the other would just be Michael doing something really random/irrational, something that even the most intelligent of us do in real life all the time (like when Robert Mercer, an artificial intelligence designer who became rich by running Renaissance Technologies, a hedge fund that specializes in "systematic trading using quantitative models derived from mathematical and statistical analyses", decided to waste over a million dollars on a project to stockpile human urine samples in the Siskiyou Mountains).

    No, the actual reason those changes would almost surely hurt their films is the ways in which they undermine each one's fundamental effect on us (which, again, is the basic element that actually makes or breaks a film), as a talking Xenomorph is a potentially silly detail that would likely make the Xenomorph less scary, and by extension, the film as a whole, which was its whole point. As for the other one, Michael leaving the mob life in such a manner would ruin that film by contradicting his character arc of being tragically drawn deeper and deeper into the Mafia, and would, again, undermine the film as a whole by ruining its overall dramatic effect... not because it's actually a plot hole.

    Many elements (like the other ones you mentioned there) can help to make or break a film, but plot holes on their own are not one of them, because the opposite, logical plots, don't fundamentally make movies great, because they do nothing to, say, make Horror movies scarier, Action movies more exciting, Dramas more emotionally moving, etc., (because, again, I've literally never seen anyone praise a film on a fundamental level just for having a logical plot). And, in the case of A Quiet Place, anything that the filmmakers could've added to make it seem more plausible that the family's survived as long as they have (a complaint that I've seen people make, one that, for a number of good reasons, strikes me as being pretty illegitimate) would've done nothing to, say, add to the surprising intimacy of the earbuds-couple dance that Blunt & Krasinski share, the refreshing sense of liberation during the scene under the waterfall, or the film's extremely strong grasp on suspense, sound design, and tension in general, like during the entirety of the birthing scene, which is honestly one of the most nerve-wracking sequences I've seen in a film in recent years:



    But I'm supposed to believe that this scene somehow would've been even tenser if the filmmakers had just explained certain unrelated things in other scenes a bit more? I don't think so.

    No, it's not a different claim; plot holes are naturally included as an individual element of a film's overall plot (which should be self-evident by the fact that they both, y'know, have the term "plot" in common); quit trying to nitpick semantics in order to conjure up points out of nothing.
    Quote Quoting transmogrifier (view post)
    I'm of the belief that someone who truly didn't care about plot holes wouldn't spend nearly as much time trying to explain them.
    I don't care about plot holes, I care about when people get hung up on them in order to criticize films for reasons that don't matter. Nice "And yet you participate IN society!" energy you got going there anyway, though.
    Last edited by StuSmallz; 03-07-2020 at 10:06 AM.

  12. #69162
    Quote Quoting Skitch (view post)
    As for being "so incredibly obvious", the dude was obviously wrong [
    ]
    But [
    ]

  13. #69163
    collecting tapes Skitch's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting StuSmallz (view post)
    But [
    ]
    Fair enough. I dont really remember.

  14. #69164
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    Quote Quoting StuSmallz (view post)
    But if that's the case, then why do we never see anyone applying the reverse of that argument (that logical plots can make a movie great) to a film?
    I may be splitting hairs, but your use of "logic" here throws me. Plot is an element of story and people don't usually think or talk about stories that way. Instead, they'll use words like "authentic" and "visceral" to describe an experience that rings true to them.

    Some stories are considered well written because they adhere to an internal logic and/or they have satisfying payoffs, not because of other elements such as strong characterization, "world building," or quality prose. It should be noted, if we're talking about it, that what's logical in a story might not be in the real world.

    Anyway, some examples from the movies: "The Big Clock," "Les Diaboliques," "Invasion of the Body Snatchers," "Psycho," "And Then There Were None," "Chinatown," "Adaptation."

  15. #69165
    The Pan megladon8's Avatar
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    I AM CYBER HUMAN NUMBER 826,467,320-Y1.

    I PREFER FILMS THAT APPEAL TO MY LOGIC CORE.

    IF THERE IS NO LOGIC, THERE IS NO JOY.

    ALL HAIL MEGA COMPUTER XD-7 AND HIS GLORIOUS NEW REGIME.

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  16. #69166
    Quote Quoting StuSmallz (view post)
    Quit trying to nitpick semantics in order to conjure up points out of nothing........Nice "And yet you participate IN society!" energy you got going there anyway, though.
    Yeah, we are done here.
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  17. #69167
    Here till the end MadMan's Avatar
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    I wanted a fight. FIGHT!

    Also I finished all of the Police Academy movies. I even rewatched the first one. I have no idea what to view now.
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  18. #69168
    collecting tapes Skitch's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting MadMan (view post)
    I wanted a fight. FIGHT!

    Also I finished all of the Police Academy movies. I even rewatched the first one. I have no idea what to view now.
    Tubi has loads of 70s-80s trash. Highly recommend.

  19. #69169
    Here till the end MadMan's Avatar
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    I love Tubi. Sold!
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  20. #69170
    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    I may be splitting hairs, but your use of "logic" here throws me. Plot is an element of story and people don't usually think or talk about stories that way. Instead, they'll use words like "authentic" and "visceral" to describe an experience that rings true to them.


    Some stories are considered well written because they adhere to an internal logic and/or they have satisfying payoffs, not because of other elements such as strong characterization, "world building," or quality prose. It should be noted, if we're talking about it, that what's logical in a story might not be in the real world.


    Anyway, some examples from the movies: "The Big Clock," "Les Diaboliques," "Invasion of the Body Snatchers," "Psycho," "And Then There Were None," "Chinatown," "Adaptation."
    But when people call movies authentic or visceral, they're usually talking about elements like the tone or the aesthetics of the overall experience, and not the underlying logic of their plots, and I see a lot of people ignoring strong underlying craft to criticize movies solely because of "plot holes", even if those movies do adhere to a certain consistent internal logic, like the aforementioned Quiet Place... but, even if they don't adhere to any sort of internal logic at all, the presence of plot holes still isn't an element that fundamentally makes what would've been a good movie bad, just like their absence isn't something that makes a bad movie good (otherwise, filling in all the holes in Batman Vs. Superman would make it good, which definitely isn't happening).

    Take Chinatown, which, as you mentioned; is a great example of this; its screenplay is obviously considered to be one of the greatest of all time, and it has a fairly intricate, detail-oriented plot that is generally pretty watertight on a logical level, but even it has a significant hole in an early plot development (which just goes to show you how even the greatest films have holes in them), in the film's inciting incident, no less, one that kind of sticks out like a sore thumb in retrospect:

    [
    ]

  21. #69171
    It seems obvious to me that both of these things can be true:

    • A lack of plot holes doesn't make a movie better.
    • Plot holes can detract from a movie.

  22. #69172
    Replacing Luck Since 1984 Dukefrukem's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Mr. McGibblets (view post)
    It seems obvious to me that both of these things can be true:

    • A lack of plot holes doesn't make a movie better.
    • Plot holes can detract from a movie.
    Truth!

    If it wasn't true, MC wouldn't love Torque!
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    Uwe Boll movies > all Marvel U movies
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  23. #69173
    Sunrise, Sunset Wryan's Avatar
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    I'm always flabbergasted at how well some of the effects in 1997's Spawn have held up...and how badly others did not. The Malebolgia/Hell effects are just hysterically awful.

    Goes without saying Leguizamo's performance still holds up and always will, forever. I will not be budged from this spot.
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  24. #69174
    Replacing Luck Since 1984 Dukefrukem's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Wryan (view post)
    I'm always flabbergasted at how well some of the effects in 1997's Spawn have held up...and how badly others did not. The Malebolgia/Hell effects are just hysterically awful.

    Goes without saying Leguizamo's performance still holds up and always will, forever. I will not be budged from this spot.
    I love him in that.

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    Quote Quoting D_Davis (view post)
    Uwe Boll movies > all Marvel U movies
    Quote Quoting TGM (view post)
    I work in grocery. I have not gotten sick. My fellow employees have not gotten sick. If the virus were even remotely as contagious as its being presented as, why haven’t entire store staffs who come into contact with hundreds of people per day, thousands per week, all falling ill in mass nationwide?

  25. #69175
    collecting tapes Skitch's Avatar
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    I'm on that hill too guys! I love him Leguizamo in that! Hes the best thing in it. Hilarious.

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