Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Rian Johnson)

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Originally Posted by transmogrifier

And yet.... this movie has a worse story than any of them.

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Are you guys purposefully saying crazy stuff?

I CANNOT wait for Red Letter Media to review this. Of all people out there, I agree with the conflicted take that Jeremy Jahns has on it.

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Originally Posted by Grouchy

Well, the pivotal characters in the scene are Poe Dameron, Leia Organa and General Hux. So... the nameless characters are pilots for other ships, which makes sense and is completely consistent with every Star Wars film ever released. There are clear objectives to the scene - Leia wants to escape from the enemy fleet while Poe would rather engage and destroy it, disregarding the possible casualties.

What you are describing sounds like a Michael Bay sequence, which is not what I saw on the theater.

Anyway, while I loved that scene (and inmediately found it more arousing than, say, yet another remake of the "let's destroy this Death Star" videogame - which is what I love about this film, it finally covers new ground) the real highlight is the climatic battle with Kylo Ren and Luke. Loved the color scheme of red against white.

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Even the "faceless" characters like Rose's sister was given her moment of heroism. Not only does her sacrifice give weight and motivation when we meet Rose later, but it sets up the crux of the whole film, that heroism doesn't come from legends, but from every corner of the galaxy.

Damn, you're right. TGM, you got served!

I also liked Rose's sister because she had that kind of face, like a scientist character in a '60s Godzilla flick.

I will say this, the weak point of the film is Finn and Rose's casino adventure - the casino planet itself is great, but I found the animal cruelty message a bit too on-the-nose and laughable... and it was kind of weird that they didn't really achieve anything at the end.

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Originally Posted by Grouchy

Well, the pivotal characters in the scene are Poe Dameron, Leia Organa and General Hux. So... the nameless characters are pilots for other ships, which makes sense and is completely consistent with every Star Wars film ever released. There are clear objectives to the scene - Leia wants to escape from the enemy fleet while Poe would rather engage and destroy it, disregarding the possible casualties.

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That's not quite what I meant by their objective. I understood all that, but when we were following the actual action of all the ships flying around, a lot of the time I couldn't actually tell who was doing what to what, and why and how? It was just shit flying all over the place, and edited together in a way that made it feel hard to follow the action. That's what I meant by "couldn't tell their objective". And yes, I know that the other movies also include nameless characters, however they're all shot and cut together in such a way that I'm never confused by what everyone is actually doing.

You had mentioned though about the direction of the action, and that's what I'm curious about. What was it about the direction of these sequences that stood out to you as exceptional?

I'll give you that final confrontation, at least in terms of the general atmosphere of it. Still thought it was hampered by Kylo's suddenly becoming a cartoon character by that point, but, *shrug*

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Originally Posted by Watashi

Even the "faceless" characters like Rose's sister was given her moment of heroism. Not only does her sacrifice give weight and motivation when we meet Rose later, but it sets up the crux of the whole film, that heroism doesn't come from legends, but from every corner of the galaxy.

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This is actually a good point. Nice how moments like this can stand out when the movie actually focuses on them.

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Originally Posted by Grouchy

Damn, you're right. TGM, you got served!

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Not really, I had already agreed before that that's when the sequence actually started to finally work. :p

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Originally Posted by Watashi

Can you even tell me what The Phantom Menace is about?

Not being snarky, but just curious, because that movie's plot is convoluted as hell.

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It’s about two guys finding some young kid and thinking he’s someone special. That’s about all that matters; it’s enough to make it better than whatever this is trying to be.

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Originally Posted by Grouchy

Are you guys purposefully saying crazy stuff?

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No. I genuinely think this is a bad movie and i genuinely think that if Lucas or Abrams had directed this, it would be more universally lambasted.

I felt like they tossed empire and Jedi into a blender and squished it into one movie. Rushed and overlong at the same time.

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Originally Posted by TGM

You had mentioned though about the direction of the action, and that's what I'm curious about. What was it about the direction of these sequences that stood out to you as exceptional?

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Well, George Lucas has this stoic way of directing action (inspired by Kurosawa) which, even though it has become synonimous with the franchise, is not exactly energetic after forty years of action cinema. Sometimes it works great (the prequels have some pretty awesome duels shot in this style) and sometimes it's just boring. I don't really like Abrams either as a writer or as a director and I still haven't seen anything good that he's done, but he did try to get away from that - mainly by inserting his favorite post-production gimmick, the lens flare.

Johnson just takes it to another level with skill and confidence. I don't remember the last time I forgot I was watching a Hollywood movie and actually felt that some character might be in danger. This movie did that for me.

Yeah, The Last Jedi was probably the first film since A New Hope that felt directly inspired by Kurosawa films. The whole stand-off on Crait is a reflection of the best samurai films.

I think my weird complaint (and it's not really a complaint, but an observation) is how this new trilogy has sidelined major players like C3PO and R2D2. Though I did love R2's small reunion with Luke, he completely disappears after that scene. I feel like BB-8 has overtaken his role, but R2 is such an integral part in the previous trilogy, it feels like he's just a decoy for the fans.

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Originally Posted by Watashi

The opening space battle of Revenge of the Sith is one of the worst "battles" ever put on screen in a Star Wars movie. It's like a bad PS3 cutscene.

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I'm avoiding most of the posts in this thread. But I just rewatched this scene when I saw your post, and I'm not finding it all that bad. I especially love the one shot intro, and the reveal when both their ships are far overhead the main battle. Then there's the ship that gets shot down and the camera does a slow pan and you can see the bodies floating in space. Very dark. And then when the buzz droids saw R4 in half.. that was cool too.

What especially don't you like about this scene? There's some phyics issues in this scene... but what Star Wars doesn't have physics issues?

Heh, in this movie they open a hacht to let Leia back inside... why aren't they all sucked into space at that precise moment?

Automatic forcefield, like the Empire uses on shuttle bays? Or the ones on Star Trek?

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Random thoughts on the thread so far:

- Not enough mentions of porg-on-porg action. Where's the porg love, brothers and sisters?

- Scar's and TGM's reactions are shocking and have me worried. (But I kinda dig Watashi's full-throated defense & enthusiasm.)

- Waiting for Duke and Skitch to weigh in.

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Originally Posted by Irish

Where's the porg love, brothers and sisters?.

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Not in this movie, that's for sure. :p

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Originally Posted by Irish

Random thoughts on the thread so far:

- Not enough mentions of porg-on-porg action. Where's the porg love, brothers and sisters?

- Scar's and TGM's reactions are shocking and have me worried. (But I kinda dig Watashi's full-throated defense & enthusiasm.)

- Waiting for Duke and Skitch to weigh in.

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I’m currently enjoying a bottle of bourbon barrel aged red wine and Rogue One, all while on 3 hours of sleep.

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Originally Posted by transmogrifier

No. I genuinely think this is a bad movie and i genuinely think that if Lucas or Abrams had directed this, it would be more universally lambasted.

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Holy bad faith assumption alert. (Don't mind me, I should get used to it by now and somehow still don't)

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Originally Posted by Grouchy

I will say this, the weak point of the film is Finn and Rose's casino adventure - the casino planet itself is great, but I found the animal cruelty message a bit too on-the-nose and laughable... and it was kind of weird that they didn't really achieve anything at the end.

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The execution is arguable, maybe should be more zippy or delve deeper (as in not concentrated to just Rose's one speech, although I liked the appearance of locals by the end). But conceptually I love that the the whole plotline, along with many minor details along the way, is a bigger demonstration of the conflict between Dern and Isaac.

Porgs definitely fuck.

I think I'm done with Disney crap.

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Poorly paced. The structure is cribbed entirely too much from Empire. (They even reset the world to the beginning of Empire with the tiny Rebellion on the run and a dark lord who exists purely to fill in the Emperor's role.) They split the characters and have one go train with an old jedi while the other protagonists are engaged in a quickly-paced run from Star Destroyers. Then we have to heavily reference the throne room scene (and build-up to such). The fighting at the end goes on for so long and over so many scenes. Luke doesn't feel like Luke at all. Rey and Finn have much less to do than in TFA. Poe (and the vice-admiral) is the best part and he ends up completely fucking up everything (but no one seems to mind much.)

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This was weird as hell. The last hour was filled with so many false-stops I thought it was never going to let me leave the theater. And yet there are some moments that rank with the greatest SW moments in the entire saga. Annnnd then there's Leia the space angel. The casino interlude was not terribly interesting. I don't know what Hux's function here is supposed to be. Goddamn Driver puts everything into this; he's terrific. I liked the exploration of Luke's ambivalence with his legend and his connection to the Force. Was totally surprised by the appearance of [

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our little green friend

], but that turned into a nice moment.

The last hour has so many cool moments that probably deserved their own movie so we wouldn't be so exhausted by that point that we can't enjoy them as much. I don't think I'll sit thru this again in theaters. But I'd be happy to watch it again sometime.

I liked it more than TFA and Rogue One. The Luke/Rey/Kylo action was all interesting and well-executed. Agreed with many that I wasn't as invested in the casino adventure, although my take on the animal discussion was that she was speaking metaphorically about suffering her tribe had endured. A lot of the character work that I wasn't as impressed with felt carried over from TFA (specifically that Finn in this film is more function than character, whereas in the last film he was basically whatever Abrams wanted him to be at any given moment). There's a lot of exciting ideas in the film, especially the overall theme of being willing to let go of the past to forge your own future.

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Luke has to be okay with letting go of the Jedi, Rose is willing to give up her necklace, Rey is able to move past her own feelings of abandonment, but Kylo is still so tumultuous internally that he can't lay down his burdens - he has to raze them to the ground.

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On that note, appreciated a number of reveals and surprises in the film:

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(1) Snoke getting axed. Fine with it, loved when it happened. We could learn about him later, or not. Frankly, he's another Abrams relic I'm happy to see dispatched with little pomp. (2) Phasma getting dropped down a well. Good. Same as (1). (3) Seeing Yoda. At first, nahh, but I loved that he brought the theme home as he stood beside Luke.

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While there's nothing in the film that gave me the emotions I felt in the first two Star Wars films, there was a real ambition and drive here to futz with the formula, to shirk the overall regality and borderline-masturbatory honorings of the prior two films. Like Watashi says, this film is in many ways a piss-take to The Force Awakens, saying, "Oh, yeah, what else you got?" It's maybe my favorite of this franchise since the original three - not quite as good as I'd privately hoped, but sturdier on a dramatic level than either previous Disney offering, more willing to venture off the beaten path, and even when it's replicating, it's subverting.

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On that note, I appreciated that the standoff at the end is more-or-less detritus of both armies. The great legacy of the Empire is in tatters, throwing one more Death Star laser at the heroes (a pitiful little railgun of a thing, dragged along by a couple of gorilla-walkers), while the survivors pilot clunky little craft before escaping back on the goddamn Falcon, which has never looked smaller.

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There were definitely moments where I wasn't sure how I felt about developments (an escape for Leia, a crucial moment with Luke at the end), but I'd like to watch the film again to see how they settle. This is a beast of a movie, so another viewing where I can spend more time paying attention to the character dynamics, their goals and motivations and self-discovery, will help me gain a better sense of it all.

Also, regarding Luke and Ben's confrontation in this film:

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While I agree that Luke shouldn't want to kill Ben, the film seems pretty clear on the idea that he doesn't want to either. And then he doesn't. But because Ben only catches the tail end of Luke's action, there's no moment for a reconciliation or understanding. Ben sees a lightsaber and reacts. I don't think it breaks Luke's character to consider hurting someone who he thinks will allow the Dark Side to prevail. He very nearly killed his own father in Jedi and only relented when he saw that he was repeating the crimes of the past, trading death for death. He recognizes that he's poised at the same precipice in this film and again relents.

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Yeah, I thought that was well handled. [

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I don't think it's out of character for Luke to consider killing his student to avoid another Vader.

] After all, the whole saga is about balance between light and darkness.