Game of Thrones (The Final Season / 8 )

What's wrong with surprise? Nobody called Arya as the killer before this episode. I think that's fun -- or at least more fun that Captain Emo grimly charging his mortal enemy and swinging a broadsword.

I didn't connect to the larger Stark family (I mean, Robb? Ew) so the Frey scenes came across as almost unbearably cheesy and highly implausible. I think there's a point where you just gotta shrug it off though because the show has repeatedly demonstrated it has no interest in logistics (or even physics, lol).

This is not the first time they've jerked the audience's chain, eg: teasing The Hound's death as a late season cliffhanger and bringing Jon Snow back from the dead using magic.

I liked that it was characters on the periphery to the "game" who got shit done this episode -- mostly Arya and Lyanna, two teenage girls -- and everybody else was left standing around with their weapon in their hand and a stunned expression on their face. That strikes me as pretty damned subversive in itself.

And while I agree that they totally undercut the tension between Jon Snow and the Night King and cast off years of build-up, it's also not the first time the show (or GRRM) has used sudden death as an easy narrative out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by amberlita

Not such much about the logistics of her ninja arrival, but the fact that we spent seasons - ever since Hardhome - developing an actual relationship between Jon and the Night King. It felt like a cheap attempt to get one of GoT's water cooler OMG! moments but instead just kind of betrayed a.) the tension they had created between Jon and the Night King for years, and b.) all the talk about Jon and/or Dany being the one to stop the long night.

---

I hadn't thought about it this way but you're absolutely right.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Irish

I liked that it was characters on the periphery to the "game" who got shit done this episode -- mostly Arya and Lyanna, two teenage girls -- and everybody else was left standing around with their weapon in their hand and a stunned expression on their face. That strikes me as pretty damned subversive in itself.

---

While both moments on themselves were wonderfully badass the idea behind this is pretty demagogic.

It also bothers me that Arya is that skilled after having both of her main mentoring sessions (Syrio and Faceless Men) cut short. That's not really how training works.

Quite right.

And might I add, it's a story telling conceit that's just so rare in genre fiction

[

Show Spoiler

https://i.imgur.com/tWMT6pb.jpg

;)

]

Haha Irish

It's a problem in Star Wars too. You keep insisting that the series has always been this way. It hasn't. There's been a significant change for the ordinary after Martin's departure.

I mean, we can go back and forth, but it all boils down to the fact that most people agree that Game of Thrones achieved its popularity by being a pointed critique of common fantasy conventions, injecting verisimilitude, careful planning and real consequences into the genre. Irish's take is basically, it's the same old cheese. Enjoy it on that level. So there you have it. We can disagree on this point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spinal

There's been a significant change for the ordinary after Martin's departure.

---

He's probably contractually forced not to pass judgement on any of the show's narrative choices at this point but I'm dying to know how he really felt about the episode. It's so opposed to the philosophy under which he writes fiction.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Grouchy

He's probably contractually forced not to pass judgement on any of the show's narrative choices at this point but I'm dying to know how he really felt about the episode. It's so opposed to the philosophy under which he writes fiction.

---

Well, and he is gracious enough not to bitch about something that's made him hugely wealthy. I honestly think the showrunners are doing their best. They've pushed the limits of TV as far as it can go and it still may not be enough to capture the size of the story. I mean, The Long Night was never intended to be literally one night.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spinal

It's a problem in Star Wars too.

---

No, it's really not.

I mean, I'm sure there's a dozen podcasts out there that have discussed just what Luke was doing between "Empire" and "Jedi" and there's a buncha nerds on the internet with volumes of theories to explain the discrepancy between Luke's abilities from one movie to another --- but most people just don't care.

Because "Star Wars" isn't "36 Chambers of Shaolin" or whatever; the movies weren't about Luke's training. Nobody who watches them comes away thinking it's any kind of dealbreaker.

Quote:

---

You keep insisting that the series has always been this way. It hasn't. There's been a significant change for the ordinary after Martin's departure.

---

I think there's a noticeable difference in quality. Benioff & Weiss aren't nearly as good at hiding the seams in their stories as Martin is. But's like they're doing the Muzak version of Martin's song --- a different sound but the notes are the same.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Irish

I think there's a noticeable difference in quality. Benioff & Weiss aren't nearly as good at hiding the seams in their stories as Martin is. But's like they're doing the Muzak version of Martin's song --- a different sound but the notes are the same.

---

That's a good metaphor but I don't think it's true. For one thing, Martin always favors character over story. This has not been true in the latter seasons - you pointed out some instances of that yourself, like the entire North forgiving the Kingslayer simply because he's good with a sword and the war is coming, while in the second season they murdered children because they couldn't get their hands on him.

Martin also seems obsessed with the tangents of his story - how one action has unexpected repercussions on characters far away from the main events, like the Dorne storyline that develops from Oberyn's death. B&W are completely uninterested in this type of storytelling. They are more desperate to deliver closure and reward the viewer than Martin ever was.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spinal

I mean, we can go back and forth, but it all boils down to the fact that most people agree that Game of Thrones achieved its popularity by being a pointed critique of common fantasy conventions, injecting verisimilitude, careful planning and real consequences into the genre.

---

Ya know, I'm posting right here. You can address me directly. You don't need to refer to me in the third person. It's okay. :D

Who are "most people"? I'd think that "most people" wouldn't have been familiar with fantasy conventions one way or the other, outside "Lord of the Rings" and maybe "Conan the Barbarian."

You talk as if Martin invented this stuff. He didn't. In fact, he was a relative late comer to the grimdark trend in fantasy fiction.

And what are "real consequences"? I've seen people on r/asoiaf throw that phrase around as if it's meaningful in some way and unique to Martin, but it's not. "Consequences" are the crux of all drama, or anything that aspires to be drama. Without "consequences," you're watching a network sitcom or an old Saturday morning cartoon.

I agree on the verisimilitude. "Game of Thrones" hesitates to employ usual fantasy tropes, like magical systems or creatures. I think that was smart, because it sidesteps any kneejerk comparisons to "Lord of the Rings" and allows a mass audience to watch without feeling like complete dorks.

Your frame of reference and expectations are going to be different if you jump into the series in Season 7 and then double back versus watching it in continuity as it airs. If you're watching Season 7 and beyond relatively fresh (meaning you skipped the transition seasons), it makes all the sense in the world you would compare its storytelling favorably to a big fantasy franchise like Star Wars. It's pretty much followed that tone consistently since Season 6. Those who watched the full transition from GRRM's sourced stories to Benioff and Weiss's full control have had a much different, far more jarring experience.

Irish, you started watching with Season 7? What kind of crazed sociopath are you that you would do such a thing?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Irish

Who are "most people"?

---

Nearly a decade of TV criticism.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Irish

You talk as if Martin invented this stuff. He didn't. In fact, he was a relative late comer to the grimdark trend in fantasy fiction.

---

You continue to set up arguments for me that I'm not making. There's no question he had a role in popularizing it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Irish

And what are "real consequences"?

---

Standing up for what you believe in and getting beheaded instead of saving the day. Being a wise-cracking arrogant knight and getting your hand chopped off instead of laughter. Trying to avenge your father's death and getting yourself killed. Honestly, this is where I can't tell if you're being serious or if you're just messing with me. This is kind of basic stuff with regards to this show and story.

By the way, how heartbreaking may it be if a very confident Arya tries to sneak up on Cersei, only to be caught and killed by The Mountain?

Even if that led to Clegane Bowl, it'd be one of the saddest things to happen in the series.

I voted that Arya dies in the game but after last episode I'm not sure they'd dare. I've started to agree with Irish - the TV show is now the chickenshit version of the story.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ezee E

By the way, how heartbreaking may it be if a very confident Arya tries to sneak up on Cersei, only to be caught and killed by The Mountain?

Even if that led to Clegane Bowl, it'd be one of the saddest things to happen in the series.

---

I'd welcome it.

In fairness to Benioff and Weiss, I would defend Season 6 (non-GRRM) as one of the best seasons of the entire show. It struck a beautiful balance between good character writing, narrative propulsion, and spectacle. I thought some of the earlier middle seasons were starting to languish, trapped in a GRRM-driven structure that wasn't moving the story forward. That said, these last two seasons are severely lacking in the depth of the writing. They may have shortchanged themselves by not allowing for more episodes, and they also seem better at this when they don't have to confront the hard fantasy elements of the story so directly.

I think the series reached its highest dramatic point with Tyrion's trial and subsequent escape from King's Landing. I watched all that stuff with my jaw on the floor. Seasons 5 and 6 were still filled with great, iconic stuff (Arya's training, Hardhome, the High Sparrow's climb to power, Hodor, the Battle of the Bastards and Baelor exploding) and I only really felt the descent in quality with 7, when everything started to feel rushed, the sense of geography completely disappeared (actually, this started happening with the finale of Season 6, in which Varys says goodbye in Dragonstone and appears in Dorne minutes later), characters were put in situations in which they are clearly dead and then magically reappear and all around everything became predictable. If I think back on Season 7 the only truly great scene it has is Olenna Tyrell's death.

I don't think I'm being too harsh on B&W. They obviously took risks with their show and its genre and adapted a difficult piece of literature in a brilliant way. But the disappearance of the source material was unkind to their writing. By the way, Benioff wrote 25th Hour and the novel it's based on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dukefrukem

I'd welcome it.

---

Same.

One thing we should all give applause for is Ramin Djawadi's great score for the end of the episode. Great composer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spinal

You continue to set up arguments for me that I'm not making. There's no question he had a role in popularizing it.

---

Mmm. More like I'm saying you're giving Martin more credit than he's due.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spinal

Standing up for what you believe in and getting beheaded instead of saving the day. Being a wise-cracking arrogant knight and getting your hand chopped off instead of laughter. Trying to avenge your father's death and getting yourself killed. Honestly, this is where I can't tell if you're being serious or if you're just messing with me. This is kind of basic stuff with regards to this show and story.

---

I wasn't asking for examples; those are obvious.

I was asking: How is "Game of Thrones" different from literally any other serious drama, since "consequences" are a key element to the form?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Irish

FFS. I've posted about the show since is began, in almost every GoT thread on this forum.

You, me, and Spinal had a long back and forth 3 years ago.

---

I barely make heads or tails of that conversation because you deleted your posts, although the quoted ones seem to just be about an article you posted?

When we, me included, talk about you jumping in at season 7, we are referring to a post in season 7’s first page that you have since deleted (very recently, because when I went back a few days ago to see if I was remembering it wrong, it was still there). But it was still there in the post Spinal quoted.