HBO's A Game of Thrones

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Originally Posted by Irish

"Savage West Wing" is a great way of framing it.

I'm not sure about the books. The subject matter is a 'fantasy of manners' of the type that had gotten popular in the 80s. The prose is awkward in a lot of places, but still evocative and a far cut above most fantasy novels (which is still a low, low bar).

The biggest difference to me between this & other soaps is that it doesn't really have multiple subplots running that are resolved one after the other, like a West Wing or Six Feet Under or Sopranos.

The entire thing is about the war, and the struggle for the throne & every character is focused exclusively on that. Martin has set up a 'Lost' problem very early on -- he can't ever resolve the central problem because if he does, the story must end & there goes a lot of money & a lot of jobs.

That's at odds with the audience's interest, because they're only watching to see how that main plot resolves.

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Not exactly, Lost didn't really seem to know where they were going with the narrative and it shows. Martin seems to know the broader strokes. I do agree though that I don't really care for the overall trajectory of the Thrones novels. I'm definitely much more interested in the white walker storyline than I am in a lot of the goings ons we witness instead. But I would say this series does have subplots which are resolved for any given character, but then there lives continue and there's another narrative thread which feature them. For instance the dragons have been born, etc.

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Originally Posted by Irish

Stuff like Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time had the exact same issue, and that didn't turn out so well for the fans.

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It turned out just fine for this fan. He definitely hit some stumbling blocks along the way but the biggest problem is just unnecessary extraneous characters, focusing a bit much on the enemy, a few needless subplots, etc. I personally think the overarching story, world building and mythos is fantastic though. If it were ever adapted it could make a fantastic show because you could cut out all the fat and get to the really good stuff.

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Originally Posted by Lucky

If you forced me to pick, that would have been my favorite scene as well. I was also incredibly impressed with the Carth (sp?) sets and Dany's story.

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I agree. Her story has been the most compelling storyline for me this season. Qarth is also freakin' awesome, and deserving of its surname.

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Originally Posted by Ivan Drago

Qarth is also freakin' awesome, and deserving of its surname.

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Well, they're the go-to spot for buying or being pandered by slaves, but you know, if that's your thing, it'd be a pretty sweet vacation spot.

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Originally Posted by Qrazy

Not exactly, Lost didn't really seem to know where they were going with the narrative and it shows. Martin seems to know the broader strokes. [...] But I would say this series does have subplots which are resolved for any given character, but then there lives continue and there's another narrative thread which feature them. For instance the dragons have been born, etc.

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It's not so much where it goes, but where it starts (although I agree Martin has a strong handle on his world). The open ended question of who is on the Iron Throne can't be resolved, but that is the most compelling draw to this series.

Daenarys is a good example. It struck me after this last episode that after ~14 hours of television, she's no closer to her family's original goal than she was when we first encountered her. In fact, she's worse off now than when she started, but yet her character is really positioned to be a source of antagonism for the story's central characters.

On top of that, she doesn't particultly seem to want or need anything beyond a single central goal, and neither do the people around her. The return of dragons is a beat in the central storyline, but it raises more questions. It doesn't resolve them.

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It turned out just fine for this fan. He definitely hit some stumbling blocks along the way but the biggest problem is just unnecessary extraneous characters, focusing a bit much on the enemy, a few needless subplots, etc. I personally think the overarching story, world building and mythos is fantastic though. If it were ever adapted it could make a fantastic show because you could cut out all the fat and get to the really good stuff.

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I meant in the sense that the guy drug out the storyline, book after book, until eleven (?) sprawling novels and then died before completing the series.

In these kind of setups (ie, like Lost), the needs of the creators are at odds with the needs of their fans.

The fans want a complete story, something with a discernible beginning, middle, and most importantly, an end. They want the questions raised to be answered in relatively short order.

The creators are getting attention, positive feedback, and money. Why write yourself out of a good job? Especially, in the case of Martin and Jordan, at the end of your career?

Two things:

1. The LOST producers negotiated a 6th season end with ABC 3 years prior because they didn't want to drag the show on and on and wanted to start writing towards an ending.

2. What was the central problem? Leaving the island? Because they did that at the end of S3.

Just throwing that out there.

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Originally Posted by Irish

It's not so much where it goes, but where it starts (although I agree Martin has a strong handle on his world). The open ended question of who is on the Iron Throne can't be resolved, but that is the most compelling draw to this series.

Daenarys is a good example. It struck me after this last episode that after ~14 hours of television, she's no closer to her family's original goal than she was when we first encountered her. In fact, she's worse off now than when she started, but yet her character is really positioned to be a source of antagonism for the story's central characters.

On top of that, she doesn't particultly seem to want or need anything beyond a single central goal, and neither do the people around her. The return of dragons is a beat in the central storyline, but it raises more questions. It doesn't resolve them.



I meant in the sense that the guy drug out the storyline, book after book, until eleven (?) sprawling novels and then died before completing the series.

In these kind of setups (ie, like Lost), the needs of the creators are at odds with the needs of their fans.

The fans want a complete story, something with a discernible beginning, middle, and most importantly, an end. They want the questions raised to be answered in relatively short order.

The creators are getting attention, positive feedback, and money. Why write yourself out of a good job? Especially, in the case of Martin and Jordan, at the end of your career?

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Ehh... I've read all the books and Wheel of Time has a very discernible beginning, middle and end. There's only one more book left (to be released this year) and then it's finished, but looking at where it started versus where it's moved to there is a huge, massive arc there and most of it (for me at least) is an extremely compelling narrative. It's certainly longer than Harry Potter but the world is also much, much richer. It's clear to me though that Jordan knew how the series would end. The last book was damn good (for a fantasy novel) and extremely epic.

Similarly in the Game of Thrones books the Dragons are growing and such and the plot threads are starting to come together. So I'm not exactly sure what you are arguing, you just wish there was less sprawl and the narrative moved a bit more quickly?

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Originally Posted by number8

Two things:

1. The LOST producers negotiated a 6th season end with ABC 3 years prior because they didn't want to drag the show on and on and wanted to start writing towards an ending.

2. What was the central problem? Leaving the island? Because they did that at the end of S3.

Just throwing that out there.

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I was thinking more of the endless speculation during those initial seasons. The fans seemed to think the questions the show raised would be answered pretty damn quickly, but the show runners sidestepped that problem and just raised new questions, and a lot of them.

Then there was some frustration over a lack of direction and "unanswered questions" in the later seasons.

That's the problem I'm talking about. If the audience gets resolution, they'll stop watching. Knowing that, the producers aren't inclined to give it to them.

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Originally Posted by Qrazy

Ehh... I've read all the books and Wheel of Time has a very discernible beginning, middle and end. There's only one more book left (to be released this year) and then it's finished, but looking at where it started versus where it's moved to there is a huge, massive arc there and most of it (for me at least) is an extremely compelling narrative. It's certainly longer than Harry Potter but the world is also much, much richer. It's clear to me though that Jordan knew how the series would end. The last book was damn good (for a fantasy novel) and extremely epic.

Similarly in the Game of Thrones books the Dragons are growing and such and the plot threads are starting to come together. So I'm not exactly sure what you are arguing, you just wish there was less sprawl and the narrative moved a bit more quickly?

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You've lost me. Are you saying that Jordan resolved Wheel's main plot before he died?

As for Thrones, it's a little hard to judge because seasons are so short (basically, what's one season on a network is two on HBO). So I'm tempted to think the story should be further along, but that's not strictly fair either.

I'm arguing for less talk and more action, of any kind. More subplots. Deeper characters. Character choices that impact the world, on any scale.
Physical or emotional risk that doesn't involve sudden, out of the blue death.

I love every single scene of Thrones -- Sansa, Tyrion, beyond the Wall, all that stuff is wildly entertaining -- but taking the episodes individually or collectively, I think it's really poor drama, and the bulk of it isn't very memorable.

I don't really understand what you're aiming for with all this, Irish. As it is in S2, Game of Thrones would have to be a sublime anomaly, and, basically, an improbable miracle to satisfy you. S1 had issues, but right now, I'm just happy it exists, someone is making it as good as it is, and will continue to do so. Could it be better, dramatically or otherwise? Probably, but would I be more satisfied with my viewing experience? I don't believe so.

Thought this episode was, for the most part, fantastic. Theon's play at being a grown-up was at first humorous and then devolved into the series' most dramatic, disturbing and potent display of violence as he tried to carry out what he was never prepared for, and ending with his immature lust showing how unprepared he really is. I love the contrast between him and Jon Snow's plight with Ygritte. I read over at the LA Times how this episode displayed the shadow of Ned Stark's departure and it couldn't be truer. And Arya/Tywin has suddenly become the most entertaining relationship on the entire show.

I do agree with the LA Times that adding rape to Sansa's scene seemed not only unnecessary but as if the writers decided for once, Martin wasn't enough of an ass (to use Irish's term).

Also, am I to assume this Talisa is actually Jeyne Westerling? Am I that fuzzy on books I just read three or four months ago? Are they changing up Robb's love interest?

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Originally Posted by Raiders

Also, am I to assume this Talisa is actually Jeyne Westerling? Am I that fuzzy on books I just read three or four months ago? Are they changing up Robb's love interest?

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Show Spoiler

Though I have yet to read the books to know if this actually is the case, I read the spoilers on Arya's plotline and the deaths she decides have been different so far. I don't think it's that big of a deal to change it to who they did but I can see some decisions to change things here and there. I don't know who Jeyne is or how important she is but this chick seems to be a good choice at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Irish

You've lost me. Are you saying that Jordan resolved Wheel's main plot before he died?

As for Thrones, it's a little hard to judge because seasons are so short (basically, what's one season on a network is two on HBO). So I'm tempted to think the story should be further along, but that's not strictly fair either.

I'm arguing for less talk and more action, of any kind. More subplots. Deeper characters. Character choices that impact the world, on any scale.
Physical or emotional risk that doesn't involve sudden, out of the blue death.

I love every single scene of Thrones -- Sansa, Tyrion, beyond the Wall, all that stuff is wildly entertaining -- but taking the episodes individually or collectively, I think it's really poor drama, and the bulk of it isn't very memorable.

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All of the bolded has happened, is happening and will continue to happen.

No, I'm saying Jordan had a clear vision to his overarching narrative and where the characters started vs where they are currently is huge (bigger scope in terms of places visited, events that have occurred and narrative flow than Rings and many other fantasy narratives). No one can predict the time of their own death. He did everything he could to get the last book finished before he died. The story is there, Sanderson is filling in the blanks. You seem to be saying that the Wheel books are just the same thing each time around (like Boxcar Children novels or something) but it's simply not the case, there's a clear narrative progression even if there are pacing issues in the later books.

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Originally Posted by Thirdmango

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Show Spoiler

Though I have yet to read the books to know if this actually is the case, I read the spoilers on Arya's plotline and the deaths she decides have been different so far. I don't think it's that big of a deal to change it to who they did but I can see some decisions to change things here and there. I don't know who Jeyne is or how important she is but this chick seems to be a good choice at the moment.

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Jeyne is more key than the first two men Arya has killed. The third she chooses is pretty important though.

Still, you could replace Jeyne in name and it wouldn't matter much as long as she functions in the same role. She herself is only marginally important in terms of characters, but the plot functions she serves are hugely important.

Not sure why you would do it that way though.

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Originally Posted by Raiders

And Arya/Tywin has suddenly become the most entertaining relationship on the entire show.

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Yes, a thousand times yes. Their scenes are, for me, what Tyrion's scenes in S1 were. Their interplay is just fantastic, in writing and acting. So tense, and I can't see this ending well, though I do wonder when Arya will get her Needle back...

"And now I've struck the king. Did my hand rot and fall off?"

I think The Hound might be my new favorite character.

Can anyone tell me what Tyrion said to him after the riot? He replies "I didn't do it for you" and just walks away. I rewound it but couldn't quite make out the line.

Also, to anyone who has read past book one: Does Theon come off as much of a flake? I'm having trouble buying his behavior the last two episodes.

He just thanked him.

The point was that he didn't do it out of service. He actually didn't want to see Sansa harmed.

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Originally Posted by number8

"And now I've struck the king. Did my hand rot and fall off?"

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That part cracked me up. Tyrion doesn't need much screen time to leave an impression. I'm hoping they break away from the book and decide to have a different character slap Joffrey every episode. That'd be most satisfying.

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Originally Posted by Irish

Also, to anyone who has read past book one: Does Theon come off as much of a flake? I'm having trouble buying his behavior the last two episodes.

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Yes, he's very unsure of himself. He didn't really think things through and mostly took over Winterfell to prove to his father that he's a true ironborn. But given that he spent 10 years away from the Iron Islands and was essentially raised by Ned, he's simply not as stoic, stubborn and tough as he's father. It's all a facade.

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Originally Posted by number8

The point was that he didn't do it out of service. He actually didn't want to see Sansa harmed.

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All those Hound/Sansa shippers probably loved every second of Hound's dismantling of the thugs.

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Originally Posted by [ETM]

All those Hound/Sansa shippers probably loved every second of Hound's dismantling of the thugs.

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Maybe it's just me, but while I am usually very amused by internet shippers for TV shows, the fact that there are those fans for this show makes me feel very disturbed.

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Originally Posted by Derek

Yes, he's very unsure of himself. He didn't really think things through and mostly took over Winterfell to prove to his father that he's a true ironborn. But given that he spent 10 years away from the Iron Islands and was essentially raised by Ned, he's simply not as stoic, stubborn and tough as he's father. It's all a facade.

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Good points. I thought most of that was fairly well represented on the show. But where I stumble is the condensed nature of the narrative.

This arc with Theon has more or less spanned 3 episodes, I think. First, he's dispatched to his father get an alliance for the Starks. Next, we see him at home, and plans are made. Then he's taking Winterfell and killing someone he's probably known most of his adult life.

There isn't any real indication of time and travel on the show, but his turnaround seems bizarre and sudden.

It's like an adopted kid gets in touch with his birth parents, spends a weekend with them, then comes back home and sets fire to his own house.

So I was wondering if the books fleshed out, if at all, any backstory or just what is going on in this kid's head?

Also: Thanks, number8, for the heads up on Hound/Tyrion.

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Originally Posted by Irish

So I was wondering if the books fleshed out, if at all, any backstory or just what is going on in this kid's head?

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Not really, I think they actually gave him more psychological nuance on the show than they did in the novels.

Although there was foreshadowing of his arc in book one and season one though with his scene with Robb and Bran in the woods when Bran is almost killed.

It's been a little fast, yes, but I think as I alluded to before, the shadow of the death of Ned Stark has really stretched into this season, particularly in Theon. When with Robb and the northerners he was still with their cause, the legacy of the family that has raised him, quasi-prisoner/servant or not. Theon's return home had him come face-to-face with his real father and in the absence of his surrogate in Ned Stark he has no real allegiance except to his heritage and he makes a rash decision to honor his father and family and to prove himself an ironborn. He immediately proves inept in this role as well.