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Didn't say he deserved it. Didn't say he should be surprised.Quote:
Originally Posted by transmogrifier
I don't think either of them can claim moral high ground really, because to me the actions of the bigger guy were out of proportion to the smaller kid by a lot. That could've ended really badly, much worse than an injured leg.
I've written some different responses to this. I'm not sure what to say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Watashi
I do not know the specifics of this, I will admit that.
I'm just not sure them being "roughed up" is a) ethical (are you implying that if the victim doesn't attack then they should receive corporal punishment?) b) more helpful than the things you mentioned. I'm sure studies have been done on this, or at least they should be. I'll look them up later.
I admit I'm very opposed to violence, so sorry if I come across as self-righteous or anything.
EDIT: And I am not excusing their behavior either. I guess I just hope that there is a way to resolve their behavior without resorting to violence. Though self-defense is of course understandable.
EDIT 2: And of course I'm opposed to bullying. It actually gets my abnormally angry at times when I read/hear about it, and I think I'm probably more inclined to say certain teasing/making fun of crosses the line than others would.
Could have, yep. And he would have been punished for it, and he would have had to take the punishment with no complaints.Quote:
Originally Posted by elixir
And yet it STILL would have all been started by the younger kid thinking it alright to punch someone in the head for the amusement of himself and others.
I mean, yeah he started it, and of course it's not alright to do that. Still don't think he "deserves" it though.Quote:
Originally Posted by transmogrifier
Also, what the fuck to the kid's friends? Ugh.
EDIT: This deserve thing is tricky. I mean, the kid was working in self-defense/immediate retaliation, but I do have trouble with the degree it occurred. I don't know. I just have trouble saying he "deserves" to have his leg injured because of the admittedly horrible thing he did. He certainly deserves punishment of some sort.
Indeed. But I'm one of those people who would prosecute those who egged on violence.Quote:
Originally Posted by elixir
Though I can't logically reconcile that with other beliefs - I mean, you wouldn't prosecute someone for suggesting to another that they should embezzle money from their company, for example. What is the difference between that and standing there encouraging someone else to beat the shit out another person? If someone could answer that, I would be much happier in my hypocrisies.
No, that's not what I"m saying. I'm saying that the fact that they are kids means that all the more so we shouldn't praise of vilify either one ala 4chan. Even if we accept the premise that the younger kid is solely a bully I don't see that he deserves to be vilified, cast into the role of the rat, etc. He should accept the repercussions for his actions but imo there's something wrong with grown ups (4 chan et al) passing blanket judgments on a child in this manner.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sven
Well, I'm not sure how to state this eloquently, but in the second situation, they are acting as part of the bullying more so than the first case with the embezzlement--meaning that they are part of the force against the victim, so that the victim is 1 against >1 (though it played out differently in this specific case, I suppose) and additionally, while the actual act is being committed, the kids stand their cheering the bully on instead of trying to, you know, prevent the violence. Gah. This is difficult, even though I know there's a difference...I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by transmogrifier
Frequently those cheering on would be keeping look outs for teachers or creating a wall of no escape. So they would be more like co-conspirators in embezzlement rather than someone making a passing suggestion.Quote:
Originally Posted by transmogrifier
I don't disagree, particularly in emphasizing your disapproval for the 4chan approach, which is definitely not amusing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qrazy
Back to the subject, here is a kitten reinactment:
[youtube]0HonbG1XE9c[/youtube]
In that case, for sure, but what about those who just stand there cheering and yelling things like "Smash him!" "Now kick him in the head!"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Qrazy
:confused:
Well that's like saying... Open the vault! Now put the money in the briefcase! So again that would be more like having a larger hand in the embezzlement.Quote:
Originally Posted by transmogrifier
The lesser blame scenario in both cases would be the guy who just says... 'you know you should fight that kid' or 'you know you should embezzle from this company'.
I'm willing to be persuaded.
It's true. :cry:Quote:
Originally Posted by Qrazy
i find something disturbing about watching one kid punch another kid and your reaction to it, as an adult, being 'what a badass!'
Bullies pick on kids because they don't think they'll fight back. This little kid made a bad bet. I don't care if he's scrawny, mean is mean, and he got what he deserved, no question. He initiated the fight, invited retaliation, and got exactly that. Actually, I thought the big kid showed remarkable restraint in not injuring him any more than he already had.
Ignoring bullies does not work, and usually only makes the situation worse. You have to stand up for yourself. If my son ever gets bullied in school I will tell him that I don't care if he gets in trouble at school, I want him to fight back. Bullies are cowards and a punch or a kick will scare them and they'll leave you alone. They don't want to fight, they want a victim. I have a feeling this big kid won't be bothered again.
It's really a great little video. In 41 seconds you have conflict, redemption, and victory. Who doesn't like seeing that? It's like a great Hollywood movie in less than a minute. Reminded me of Of Mice and Men when Malkovich breaks Casey Siemazsko's hand.
I can definitely say that I knew some bullies who became more violent and antagonistic when their victims resorted to violence to try and defend themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Benny Profane
In theory, "stand up for yourself" sounds like a grand idea and all but it can also lead to further torment and greater risk of serious injury. Sometimes the best course of action is to have a mediated intervention with professional counselors and parents on both sides. I think that encouraging violence should be a last resort and you should always explore alternative options beforehand.
But it's not entertainment. It's real people who are really hurting and are suffering real consequences. I might watch a film about a serial killer, but if I'm reading it in the newspaper I'm not going to make popcorn and say, "Hey, this is good stuff."
Also, I agree with Qrazy that it's far too simplistic to look at a forty second video devoid of any context and jump to immediate conclusions of who was right and who was wrong. Not to mention that we don't know anything about external factors that might influence these kids' behaviors, such as potential domestic problems they may be experiencing that would help fuel their violent outbursts.
It's undoubtedly a far more complex situation than simply, "skinny kid threw the first punch, got what he deserved, case closed".
External factors make it okay for the scrawny kid to do what he wants? I don't get this idea.
No, it doesn't justify his actions but it perhaps helps us to better understand them and in the process makes him far less villainous than a twenty second YouTube clip would suggest.
We are no longer discussing about a specific incident with these arguments. Forget the perceived villainy of the skinny kid. The demand of context in a viral video should be transferable to others, and really, would render a lot of meme and popular YouTube videos invalid for amusement. That's perfectly fine if you want to take that stance, but I just want to point that out.
The whole premise of watching amusing YouTube videos is to look at these videos as self-contained events, with what little context provided in them. In this case, the entire incident from beginning to end is captured on camera, so within that period, people assign roles as usual according to the context within. That's usually the extent of it. People watch it, they laugh, they spread the video, maybe it becomes a meme, then that's that. It's a questionable part of internet culture, but lack of context isn't exactly the problem, is it? It's more to do with schadenfreude.
4chan rallying behind the chubby kid has more to do with facts coming out afterward from family members that he's apparently a constant victim of bullying (though not necessarily from that specific skinny kid), and he's not only suspended from school for fighting back when he's being attacked, but he's also being sued by the skinny kid's parents. 4chan has a boner for internet justice, and I really don't like that type of vigilantism, but I think this situation is escalated to their level by, ironically, more context beyond the video.
But bottom line, you know what? I'm comfortable with saying that if you start a fight for whatever reason and you get your ass beat, then yes, you got what you deserved. Anybody in the history of anything who starts any fight deserves to taste a little violence back. That's precisely why we say we shouldn't start fights.
We went from The Tempest to The Beatles.
I'm curious which viral videos you watch and which memes you engage in with similar content. The memes I am familiar with don't require context because they aren't representative of ugly behavior. I do not need to know the context behind the dramatic chipmunk or Winnebago Man or All Ur Base R Belong to Us or Rickroll or etc because such context changes little about the humor of those videos. In the case of the fight well first off I don't find it humorous and secondly context could change a great deal about the dynamic of the kids.Quote:
Originally Posted by number8
I finally watched the video, and what I'm taking away from it is that you shouldn't pick on people bigger than you. That never ends well. And that this video is being perhaps blown out of proportion, to an extent. Now I was lucky in that throughout my school experience from elementary to high school, I was never bullied. But I can understand why the bigger kid would get tired of the abuse, and decide to beat the shit out of some idiot kid who was actively punching him. Of course the bigger kid should get in trouble, because you don't want to encourage such behavior. But I can't blame someone for defending themself.