My Top Twenty of 2000-2008

[Pop Trash]

This is heavy on the earlier years of this decade, but that's mostly because enough time has gone by to really consider these films.

1. Donnie Darko
2. Adaptation.
3. You Can Count On Me
4. Ghost World
5. About Schmidt

6. Memento
7. Requiem for a Dream
8. Capturing the Friedmans
9. A.I.
10. Talk to Her

11. George Washington
12. Lost in Translation
13. Together/Lilja 4-Ever (tie-both by Moodysson)
14. In the Bedroom
15. High Fidelity

16. Kill Bill: The Whole Bloody Affair
17. Bowling for Columbine
18. Before Sunset
19. The Squid and the Whale
20. Brokeback Mountain

1-15 I feel pretty confident about. 16-20 might change.

Feel free to submit your own list...

[Winston*]

That's a top 21.

[MacGuffin]

That's a pretty boring and conventional list!

[Ezee E]

Capturing the Friedmans? Really?

[transmogrifier]

No ST?

[Qrazy]

Meh.

[Spinal]

Comments are always nice. Why Donnie Darko #1? Why share a spot with the Moodysson films when they are extremely different? What do you look for in a film and how do these choices reflect your personality?

[Ezee E]

Comments are always nice. Why Donnie Darko #1? Why share a spot with the Moodysson films when they are extremely different? What do you look for in a film and how do these choices reflect your personality?
Choices are suppose to reflect personality?

[Sycophant]

Choices are suppose to reflect personality?

No, they aren't supposed to. But they always manage to somehow. Goddamn them.

[Spinal]

Choices are suppose to reflect personality?

I usually find trends when I make these lists that reflect something I value.

[Ezee E]

I usually find trends when I make these lists that reflect something I value.
I guess it's too soon for 2008, but I got The Fall, Cloverfield, Iron Man, and My Blueberry Nights.

I guess it is true that I'm insane.

I know where you're going at with this, but I've never really put too much thought into it.

[Pop Trash]

Capturing the Friedmans? Really?
Yup. It's one of the most fascinating docs I've ever seen. I like documentaries about strange, underrepresented true crimes (also Paradise Lost and Brother's Keeper fall into this area)

[Pop Trash]

No ST?
I figured one Richard Kelly film is enough, plus not enough time has lapsed to properly judge Southland Tales. Perhaps I'll hate it in a few years, but I doubt it.

[Pop Trash]

Comments are always nice. Why Donnie Darko #1? Why share a spot with the Moodysson films when they are extremely different? What do you look for in a film and how do these choices reflect your personality?
Donnie Darko I saw pre-hype and was one of those people that was just like 'holy shit, what's going on in this movie?' It had similarities to a screenplay I was writing but went way beyond in its imagination then anything I could ever come up with. I am also a big fan of the 'teen rebel' genre which effectively began with Rebel Without a Cause and continued on in other decades with films like Harold and Maude, Over the Edge, River's Edge, Heathers, etc. It used the template of teen rebels but went beyond it into sci-fi, surrealism, possible schizophrenia (if you read it that way) family drama, comedy, post 9/11 doomsday paranoia, BMX bikes, and last but not least, the 80s.

As for Moodysson, no reason other than I love both films equally and seem to be the flip side of Moodysson's humanist coin. One warm and funny, the other deeply sad and tragic but both have a deeply felt empathy towards the human condition.

[Spinal]

One more question. Have you actually seen the two parts of Kill Bill edited together, or are you ranking the two films as one entry?

[Pop Trash]

One more question. Have you actually seen the two parts of Kill Bill edited together, or are you ranking the two films as one entry?
One entry. I just think 'The Whole Bloody Affair' has a nice ring to it. Why?

[Spinal]

One entry. I just think 'The Whole Bloody Affair' has a nice ring to it. Why?

Cause I keep hearing about it despite the fact that it doesn't seem to exist. I think it could be great, but I really doubt that Tarantino is willing to cut enough to make it the film that I personally would be satisfied with. And it would probably still have that dopey Superman monologue, plus Darryl Hannah's character reading from her Wikipedia research.

[baby doll]

Since the decade isn't over, I'd probably start by limiting myself to eight titles. It won't be many a month if not years until I see some of the films that just premiered at Berlin, Rotterdam and Cannes with Venice, Toronto and, more to the point, Busan still months away. And for that very reason, my list as well would be heavily slanted towards the earlier part of the decade. I'd also have to limit myself to films I've seen at least three times.

Alphebetically speaking:

demonlover (Olivier Assayas, 2002)
Dogville (Lars von Trier, 2003)
Femme Fatale (Brian De Palma, 2002)
Gosford Park (Robert Altman, 2001)
La Pianiste (Michael Haneke, 2001)
Platform (Jia Zhang-ke, 2000)
Yi Yi (Edward Yang, 2000)
Werckmeister Harmonies (Bela Tarr, 2000)

[Grouchy]

Cause I keep hearing about it despite the fact that it doesn't seem to exist. I think it could be great, but I really doubt that Tarantino is willing to cut enough to make it the film that I personally would be satisfied with. And it would probably still have that dopey Superman monologue, plus Darryl Hannah's character reading from her Wikipedia research.
This weirds me out too. I always heard the Bloody Affair cut had been made and shown, yet why it's never been made available on DVD? It doesn't even have its own IMDb entry, for fuck's sake.

I've done this "Films of the '00s" list before, but can't find it. Well, huh...

1. Mulholland Dr.
2. Oldboy
3. In the Mood for Love
4. Children of Men
5. Caché
6. The Incredibles
7. I'm Not There
8. Femme Fatale
9. The Triplets of Belleville
10. The Man Who Wasn't There

[Qrazy]

Hmmm Femme Fatale's that good eh... I'm fairly mixed on De Palma but I guess I"ll give it a look.

[Derek]

Hmmm Femme Fatale's that good eh... I'm fairly mixed on De Palma but I guess I"ll give it a look.

It wouldn't make my top 10 or 20 of the decade, but it is one of his best films.

[Pop Trash]

Hmmm Femme Fatale's that good eh... I'm fairly mixed on De Palma but I guess I"ll give it a look.
It's entertaining and fairly rediculous but then again...it's a DePalma movie.

[origami_mustache]

still haven't seen a film from Moodysson

[berlin wallflower]

Could change at any moment, but for now:


Werckmeister Harmonies
In Praise of Love
All or Nothing
The New World
Dancer In the Dark
The Company
All the Real Girls
Russian Ark
3-Iron
Open Hearts
Yi Yi
Songs from the Second Floor
Elephant
Saraband
In the Mood for Love


I'm sure I'm forgetting something. I have such a bad memory. It's pathetic. Lists don't really mean that much to me. They're fun to do, but that's about it. It just makes me realize that there's a ton of films from this decade that I haven't seen.

[Pop Trash]

That's a pretty boring and conventional list!
Thanks, I try.

[Sycophant]

I'll go with the "eight for '08" thing baby doll did, but I'll fudge it and include one as a tie.

1. The Royal Tenenbaums
2. Mind Game
3. Doppelganger
4. The Taste of Tea
5. Citizen Dog
6. Millennium Actress
7. Dead or Alive 2: Birds
8. Election & Election 2

[Ezee E]

Cause I keep hearing about it despite the fact that it doesn't seem to exist. I think it could be great, but I really doubt that Tarantino is willing to cut enough to make it the film that I personally would be satisfied with. And it would probably still have that dopey Superman monologue, plus Darryl Hannah's character reading from her Wikipedia research.
I'd assume that the only thing that would be cut is the b&w footage of her in the car discussing what happened in Pt.1, and her getting shot again. Everything else would just move right along.

[Ezee E]

I'd assume that the only thing that would be cut is the b&w footage of her in the car discussing what happened in Pt.1, and her getting shot again. Everything else would just move right along.
1. Children of Men
2. Kill Bill
3. Amelie
4. Requiem For A Dream
5. City of God
6. 25th Hour
7. Catch Me If You Can
8. Irreversible
9. There Will Be Blood
10. American Psycho

Off the top of my head, I'm probably missing something.

[Ezee E]

1. Children of Men
2. Kill Bill
3. Amelie
4. Requiem For A Dream
5. City of God
6. 25th Hour
7. Catch Me If You Can
8. Irreversible
9. There Will Be Blood
10. American Psycho

Off the top of my head, I'm probably missing something.
Looking at that list, I perceive myself as a guy most likely going to jail for murder and/or rape, that will party like none other the day before I go to jail, with my last request being a milkshake. While I'm there, I think about my drug-addicted times in Brazil while I stole others identities, and helped others fall in love. As i leave prison, I get revenge. On the judge, and make sure that nobody else can have babies.

Damn. I'm twisted.

[Philosophe_rouge]

I've seen barely any of the films here, from what I count 5. None of which would be in my personal top 20 however. There are several that are relatively high on my priority list though, like Brokeback Mountain, Adaptation and George Washington. My top 10 would look something like this; a little 2007 heavy.

1. The New World (USA, Terrence Malick)
2. No Country for Old Men (USA, Joel and Ethan Coen)
3. The Fog of War (USA, Errol Morris)
4. In the Mood for Love
5. Spirited Away (Japan, Hayao Miyazaki)
6. Zodiac (USA, David Fincher)
7. The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford (USA, Andrew Dominik)
8. There Will Be Blood (USA, P.T. Anderson)
9. Volver (Spain, Pedro Almodovar)
10. Marie Antoinette (Japan/France/USA, Sofia Coppola)

[transmogrifier]

1. Children of Men - Naw.
2. Kill Bill - Naw.
3. Amelie - Naw.
4. Requiem For A Dream - Naw.
5. City of God - Naw.
6. 25th Hour - Naw.
7. Catch Me If You Can - Heeellllll Naaawww
8. Irreversible - OK
9. There Will Be Blood - OK
10. American Psycho - Naw.

Off the top of my head, I'm probably missing something.

You and me, we're not meant to be.

[Dukefrukem]

man, half of those movies i could never watch again in my life if you paid me. AI for example... i wanted to poke my eyes out with a fork after the ending.

[dreamdead]

I'd say that my ten look something like this... I'm excited to get to Platform by the weekend...

1. Mulholland Dr. (Lynch)
2. In the Mood for Love (Wong)
3. Yi Yi (Yang)
4. The New World (Malick)
5. The Son (Dardennes)
6. The Intruder (Denis)
7. Werckmeister Harmonies (Tarr)
8. The House of Mirth (Davies)
9. Syndromes and a Century (Apichatpong)
10. Turning Gate (Hong)

[Raiders]

These lists are boring. Here's my top 10 films that need more lovin':

1. The House of Mirth (2000)
2. The Truth About Charlie (2002)
3. The Company (2003)
4. The White Diamond (2004)
5. Hamlet (2000)
6. Late Marriage (2001)
7. The Gleaners & I (2000)
8. The Agronomist (2003)
9. 28 Weeks Later (2007)
10. The Manchurian Candidate (2004)

[Philosophe_rouge]

These lists are boring. Here's my top 10 films that need more lovin':

1. The House of Mirth (2000)
2. The Truth About Charlie (2002)
3. The Company (2003)
4. The White Diamond (2004)
5. Hamlet (2000)
6. Late Marriage (2001)
7. The Gleaners & I (2000)
8. The Agronomist (2003)
9. 28 Weeks Later (2007)
10. The Manchurian Candidate (2004)
I love House of Mirth and 28 Weeks, both narrowly miss my list. I also think The Manchurian Candidate is pretty good. I haven't seen any of the others.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I would agree with The House of Mirth, The Company, and Hamlet. I would vehemently disagree with The Manchurian Candidate, which was a clunky, heavy-handed mess.

[Raiders]

I would vehemently disagree with The Manchurian Candidate, which was a clunky, heavy-handed mess.

Man. No way, no way.

Where the heck is that Apartment thread? I need to chastise.

[Ezee E]

You and me, we're not meant to be.
darn.

[Ezee E]

These lists are boring. Here's my top 10 films that need more lovin':

1. The House of Mirth (2000)
2. The Truth About Charlie (2002)
3. The Company (2003)
4. The White Diamond (2004)
5. Hamlet (2000)
6. Late Marriage (2001)
7. The Gleaners & I (2000)
8. The Agronomist (2003)
9. 28 Weeks Later (2007)
10. The Manchurian Candidate (2004)

Demme much? Why not throw in his concert films at this point? :)

One of the top of my head that should be mentioned is Three Burials of Melquiades Estrada.

I really do like The Manchurian Candidate though.

[Raiders]

Demme much? Why not throw in his concert films at this point? :)

Heart of Gold just missed the cut.

:P

[Pop Trash]

These lists are boring. Here's my top 10 films that need more lovin':

1. The House of Mirth (2000)
2. The Truth About Charlie (2002)
3. The Company (2003)
4. The White Diamond (2004)
5. Hamlet (2000)
6. Late Marriage (2001)
7. The Gleaners & I (2000)
8. The Agronomist (2003)
9. 28 Weeks Later (2007)
10. The Manchurian Candidate (2004)

Someone likes his Demme. I guess I should watch The Man. Candidate at some point. I avoided it at the time because I was pissy that Hollywood was remaking what I consider one of the best films of the 60s. I do like how Demme films his actors nearly talking into the lens and nearly breaking the fourth wall instead of the usual shot/reverse/shot when shooting a dialogue scene. This is especially effective in Silence of the Lambs. Creates a feeling of almost uncomfortable intamacy with the audience. I take it you are a Beloved defender as well?

[Raiders]

Someone likes his Demme. I guess I should watch The Man. Candidate at some point. I avoided it at the time because I was pissy that Hollywood was remaking what I consider one of the best films of the 60s. I do like how Demme films his actors nearly talking into the lens and nearly breaking the fourth wall instead of the usual shot/reverse/shot when shooting a dialogue scene. This is especially effective in Silence of the Lambs. Creates a feeling of almost uncomfortable intamacy with the audience. I take it you are a Beloved defender as well?

My love for the man is somewhat known, I think. Yes, the technique of shooting the actors is very effective, and yes, I love Beloved. I really should re-start my review thread for him. I was up to his best film, Something Wild, which I just never could really put into words.

[Ezee E]

I need to see more Demme, which I will remedy come his Consensus. However, his dialog into the cameras is incredibly effective, and I never think of it as breaking the fourth wall, unless I see it on a preview. In the context of the films, I rarely even think of it. I suppose it's the editing at this point.

Which 80's do you recommend the most for me Raiders. How about Beloved?

[balmakboor]

Not many films I'm sure about. So far...

A.I.
The Diving Bell and the Butterfly
Mulholland Dr
There Will Be Blood
The Taste of Tea

I dunno. It'll probably be 2015 before I've seen everything from 2000 to 2008 that I need to see.

[trotchky]

1. Caché

That's about all I have.

[Raiders]

Which 80's do you recommend the most for me Raiders. How about Beloved?

Something Wild, definitely. Stop Making Sense is epic, and Melvin and Howard is also pretty great. I didn't care a whole lot for Swing Shift, which seemed caught between Hawn's mugging and Demme's more relaxed sensibilities, and Married to the Mob is well worth watching, but a very uneven film.

[Watashi]

1. The Incredibles
2. Ratatouille
3. Finding Nemo
4. Monster's Inc.
5. Millennium Actress
6. Paprika
7. Howl's Moving Castle
8. Spirited Away
9. Wallace and Gromit: Curse of the Were-Rabbit
10. Chicken Run

[megladon8]

01.) Batman Begins
02.) Oldboy
03.) American Psycho
04.) The Fountain
05.) Mind Game
06.) The Royal Tenenbaums
07.) Solaris
08.) Mulholland Dr.
09.) Session 9
10.) The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring

[Winston*]

These lists are boring. Here's my top 10 films that need more lovin':

1. The House of Mirth (2000)
2. The Truth About Charlie (2002)
3. The Company (2003)
4. The White Diamond (2004)
5. Hamlet (2000)
6. Late Marriage (2001)
7. The Gleaners & I (2000)
8. The Agronomist (2003)
9. 28 Weeks Later (2007)
10. The Manchurian Candidate (2004)
I've seen four films on this list and didn't like any of them. Should I continue?

[Qrazy]

I've seen four films on this list and didn't like any of them. Should I continue?

No.

[MacGuffin]

My favorites from 2000 to 2007:

1. Dogville (Lars VON TRIER)
2. Twentynine Palms (Bruno DUMONT)
3. Lost in Translation (Sofia COPPOLA)
4. The Royal Tenenbaums (Wes ANDERSON)
5. I'm Not There (Todd HAYNES)
6. Femme Fatale (Brian DE PALMA)
7. Mulholland Drive (David LYNCH)
8. Miami Vice (Michael MANN)
9. Werckmeister Harmonies (Béla TARR)
10. Millennium Mambo (Hsiao-hsien HOU)

[Grouchy]

8. Miami Vice (Michael MANN)
Speechless, I am.

[MacGuffin]

Speechless, I am.

If it were a fashion magazine, it would be the only one that isn't full of shit.

[Russ]

These, for me:

In the Mood For Love
Inland Empire
Mind Game
Mulholland Dr.
Palindromes
Pistol Opera
Ratatouille
Songs From the Second Floor
Talk to Her
Visitor Q

#11: Cowards Bend the Knee

[Qrazy]

If it were a fashion magazine, it would be the only one that isn't full of shit.

What a bizarre comparison.

[Pop Trash]

My love for the man is somewhat known, I think. Yes, the technique of shooting the actors is very effective, and yes, I love Beloved. I really should re-start my review thread for him. I was up to his best film, Something Wild, which I just never could really put into words.

I imagine his last few non-doc efforts would be more liked if they weren't remakes of well regarded films.

[Qrazy]

I imagine his last few non-doc efforts would be more liked if they weren't remakes of well regarded films.

Nah I'd pretty much still think he's a mediocre director either way.

[soitgoes...]

In defense of Jonathan Demme, The Agronomist and Jimmy Carter Man from Plains are two of the best docs I've seen from this decade. Plus he's better than his nephew.

[Winston*]

Plus he's better than his nephew.
Better.....AT BEING ALIVE!!!

[Qrazy]

In defense of Jonathan Demme, The Agronomist and Jimmy Carter Man from Plains are two of the best docs I've seen from this decade. Plus he's better than his nephew.

Haven't seen his docs, only speaking based on his fictional films... and yeah he's better than his nephew.

[transmogrifier]

In defense of Jonathan Demme, The Agronomist and Jimmy Carter Man from Plains are two of the best docs I've seen from this decade. Plus he's better than his nephew.

I liked Beautiful Girls better than anything I have seen from Jonathan.

[soitgoes...]

I liked Beautiful Girls better than anything I have seen from Jonathan.
I like Beautiful Girls too, but not as much as Silence of the Lambs or the two docs I've already stated.

[Spinal]

I'd assume that the only thing that would be cut is the b&w footage of her in the car discussing what happened in Pt.1, and her getting shot again. Everything else would just move right along.

See, that would be pointless. Hopefully, he would put more effort into it than that.

[Sycophant]

At this point, the only things that really could keeping them from releasing the DVDs are:
1) Tarantino really is just that lazy and won't do it.
2) They're waiting for the right promotional tie-in moment to come along, which apparently Grindhouse wasn't.

My interest in seeing a combined cut has pretty much disappeared. I like what's there just fine.

[ledfloyd]

this is so hard...

no order:
Junebug
I'm Not There
Old Joy
Zodiac
Mulholland Dr.
Adaptation.
Werckmeister Harmonies
Yi Yi
Broken Flowers
In the Mood for Love

Incredibles, Jesse James, Lost in Translation and Kill Bill are near misses. as is Shaun of the Dead.

[Ezee E]

See, that would be pointless. Hopefully, he would put more effort into it than that.
What else would need to be done? THat's how it originally was going to be, but Weinstein Company decided that a 4-hour movie would be ridiculous, and said he should cut it into two parts.

After Grindhouse, looks like he was right.

[Spinal]

What else would need to be done? THat's how it originally was going to be, but Weinstein Company decided that a 4-hour movie would be ridiculous, and said he should cut it into two parts.

After Grindhouse, looks like he was right.

You seem to be of the opinion that the films have no filler, no unnecessary scenes, no bloat. I disagree. Get the whole thing under 3 hours and I think you could have a superior experience.

[DavidSeven]

If it were a fashion magazine, it would be the only one that isn't full of shit.

Expound. Or... make it make sense anyway.

[MacGuffin]

Expound. Or... make it make sense anyway.

I don't think the movie cared about external character emotions and being overly theatrical (i.e., holding the audiences hands and telling them how they're supposed to feel) so much as it did character details. That's why I get a lot out of the movie; because it's so ambiguous. Take the last scene for example - which feels so artificial, yet so inevitable - with the Mogwai song taking the place of any onscreen emotions the characters may show. It's a very empty movie, but that's why I like it. By empty, I don't mean superficial either. It tells a story through how it looks at the characters: how their hair blows in the wind as they speed in the waters on their boats, how they interact with people in the world around them. As far as fashion magazines, and I suppose gossip magazines you can find at the supermarket, they're a lot like that in how they're so empty. But they fail to capture the internal feelings the characters are emoting because they're so fucking distant and don't give a shit and a half about detail.

[transmogrifier]

You seem to be of the opinion that the films have no filler, no unnecessary scenes, no bloat. I disagree. Get the whole thing under 3 hours and I think you could have a superior experience.

See, I think it is four hours of filler. Such a hollow, pointless film.

[Grouchy]

But Mann pulled off that stylish look of his characters, hair blowing in the wind kinda thing with movies that were a lot better structured and had more substance to them, like Heat or The Insider. My main qualms with Miami Vice is that the plot was almost impossible to follow or care about. Unlike in the TV series which had great storylines.

Then again, if you love the movie precisely because it lacks depth and works like a long fashion ad, then you love it for exactly the reasons I hate it.

[MacGuffin]

But Mann pulled off that stylish look of his characters, hair blowing in the wind kinda thing with movies that were a lot better structured and had more substance to them, like Heat or The Insider. My main qualms with Miami Vice is that the plot was almost impossible to follow or care about. Unlike in the TV series which had great storylines.

Then again, if you love the movie precisely because it lacks depth and works like a long fashion ad, then you love it for exactly the reasons I hate it.

Maybe, but I think Heat and The Insider (two movies I disliked) were merely examples of Mann's experimenting this style. They almost work as prototypes. The former can be occasionally exhilarating, but it's marred by the excessive character focus and way too much dialogue. I'm surprised to find the latter came out after, because it's textbook narrative for dummies: if you have a script, you have a movie. It's also just boring. I think the only purpose it served was to foreshadow the style of nighttime shooting Mann would emphasize with his two later movies, Collateral and Miami Vice.

As far as Miami Vice's plot, I don't really care about that too much (if I wanted plot, I'd read a book). I think any of that narrative stuff is extra if it can be pulled off.

[Grouchy]

Wow, The Insider was boring to you?

Discussion ended. Blown to atoms.

[Qrazy]

Maybe, but I think Heat and The Insider (two movies I disliked) were merely examples of Mann's experimenting this style. They almost work as prototypes. The former can be occasionally exhilarating, but it's marred by the excessive character focus and way too much dialogue. I'm surprised to find the latter came out after, because it's textbook narrative for dummies: if you have a script, you have a movie. It's also just boring. I think the only purpose it served was to foreshadow the style of nighttime shooting Mann would emphasize with his two later movies, Collateral and Miami Vice.

As far as Miami Vice's plot, I don't really care about that too much (if I wanted plot, I'd read a book). I think any of that narrative stuff is extra if it can be pulled off.

I respect that you don't like the films but I don't find any of these criticisms particularly valid... too much character focus, dialogue and The Insider is too script-based? Please... a) character depth is a good thing b) there are extended sequences in Heat with no dialogue c) The Insider is a very visual film claiming it's primarily script based simply displays a lack of interest in delving into it's formal depths d) boring is not a critique it's a dismissal.

[Boner M]

I've grown to admire Miami Vice upon repeat viewings, but the recent cinephile trend of completely writing off Mann's previous work in it's favour has just got to end.

Also Clipper Ship, you seem to be embracing style as a means of shying away from discussions of narrative/character, to which Mann's style in all the four films you mentioned is linked (to varying degrees).

[Yxklyx]

1. The Lord of the Rings
2. Amelie
3. Mulholland Dr.
4. Songs from the Second Floor
5. The Heart of the World
6. Hukkle
7. Ghost World
8. City of God
9. 3-Iron
10. United 93
11. The Saddest Music in the World
12. Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon
13. Donnie Darko
14. Primer
15. Memento
16. Brick
17. Finding Nemo
18. Nurse Betty
19. Gerry
20. Lilya 4-Ever

something like that

[MacGuffin]

Please... a) character depth is a good thing

Well, sure, but when you're looking at Heat from a perspective of it being a prerequisite for Miami Vice it's out of place and irrelevant.


b) there are extended sequences in Heat with no dialogue

Okay, fair enough, but there is also a shitload of pointless dialogue equalling up to a miserably long and excessive running time.


c) The Insider is a very visual film claiming it's primarily script based simply displays a lack of interest in delving into it's formal depths

And which "formal depths" are those?


d) boring is not a critique it's a dismissal.

After the things I had said before previously calling it boring, a dismissal would only seem in order.

[MacGuffin]

I've grown to admire Miami Vice upon repeat viewings, but the recent cinephile trend of completely writing off Mann's previous work in it's favour has just got to end.

If you're talking to me, I'm not completely writing off his work. I did enjoy Collateral.


Also Clipper Ship, you seem to be embracing style as a means of shying away from discussions of narrative/character, to which Mann's style in all the four films you mentioned is linked (to varying degrees).

How so? And no, my response to Grouchy was merely comparing the styles as I saw them from Mann's early works to Miami Vice.

[Qrazy]

Well, sure, but when you're looking at Heat from a perspective of it being a prerequisite for Miami Vice it's out of place and irrelevant.

Looking at it as a prerequisite for Miami Vice is out of place and irrelevant, stylistically it came before so of course in that sense it's a prerequisite... is it also the better film because there's some actual content to it versus the purely stylistic content of Vice? I would of course argue yes.


Okay, fair enough, but there is also a shitload of pointless dialogue equalling up to a miserably long and excessive running time.

It's actually a fairly pointed script with all the scenes and lines tying into one another... the subject matter and execution may not have been your cup of tea but thinking about it I see few lines or scenes that could be excised at random without hurting the film.


And which "formal depths" are those?

Oh I don't know, a gritty, inovative unique visual style... spawning numerous imitators from Syriana to Michael Clayton. Many remarkable shots and scenes spring to mind from the atmosphere/location setting of the opening sequence, to a memory shot which required a moving camera morph as the protag sits alone in a room and remembers his past, to the communicative deep shadows on the grass of the two main characters during/after part of the trial.


After the things I had said before previously calling it boring, a dismissal would only seem in order.

You have every right to be bored by it but obviously anyone will be bored by most of the art they don't enjoy... it's not very far away from just saying 'I didn't like it' which we already know.

[MacGuffin]

I don't really care enough about Mann's early works or have seen them recently enough to argue with them; I'm only going by memory. As such, I don't feel the need to continue arguing about them. I will say that I do think Miami Vice is far more than style, but the substance is definitely subtle something you have to look for (as I have said, the movie doesn't hold your hand). I'd give it another try, unless you are absolutely certain you've gotten the most out of the movie you could get.

Also, how is looking at it as a prerequisite irrelevant? Would you say look at a director's overall progress throughout their career is irrelevant? Because that's all I was saying. I don't know if you misunderstood me or not.

[lwilson85]

1. Caché

That's about all I have.

Ha. You really do have a most gorgeous av. My number one would be L'Intrus or maybe Silent Light.

[chrisnu]

Let's see. Twenty films, listed chronologically:

Requiem for a Dream
Songs from the Second Floor
Mulholland Dr.
The Man Who Wasn't There
Spider
Solaris
City of God
The Shape of Things
Hukkle
Before Sunset
Sideways
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind
A History of Violence
Tropical Malady
Junebug
The Death of Mr. Lazarescu
Pan's Labyrinth
Old Joy
The Proposition
No Country for Old Men