Transformers 2

[Spun Lepton]

Selling out does not mean that you started with high moral standards and then disposed of them. You can sell out with your very first film. Selling out is making commodified art solely for a profit.

Perhaps in an unrealistic, high-school-tinged world, making "art" soley for profit is selling out. But, in the real world, sometimes artists need to "sell out" occassionally in order to live off of their art. It might be all romantic to be the starving-artist type, mooching off your girl/boyfriend while making your "art", but it doesn't fly in real life. Or, rather, it's a rare thing when somebody can make a decent living off of their art.


The harm he is doing is systematically lowering the lowest common denominator (I'm not speaking of this film as I have not seen it but Michael Bay and his films in general... keep in mind that I mildly enjoyed the first Transformers). As long as his films are financially successful more will be made.

Is that Bay's fault, or the fault of all the people who go see his trash on opening weekend? From my perspective, Bay's just taking advantage of an opportunity.


No I did not draw a parallel. moot moot moot moot

Whatever.


What I believe is that soulless films made solely for profit... focus group films filled with product placement, lowest common denominator humor and T&A, where characters act as shallow, hollow automatons... provide the world with absolutely nothing and should not be made. I have nothing against big fun action blockbusters en masse.

They provide lots of people with entertainment. See those profits? Hate on them all you like, but in many cases, if it weren't for these big, stupid movies, then your "soulful" art films might not have the money to be made. Studios do not survive without profits, believe it or not.


To clarify all of this is in reference to 8's comments about Bay. If he is aware of what he's doing and capable of making better films and isn't (and I think this is likely the case) then I find his actions reprehensible.

Then you needs some real problems to worry about.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Is that Bay's fault, or the fault of all the people who go see his trash on opening weekend? From my perspective, Bay's just taking advantage of an opportunity.

See, I'd agree that the public enables him, but if Bay's making millions by contributing further to the downward spiral, is he not equally complicit? Is he not just as bad for the culture as those who willingly see his tripe?

I don't think anyone here is against the principle of big dumb movies as a way to legitimately make money. I think they're against Bay making poorly-made crap and being cognizant of it, and continuing to do it.

[Spun Lepton]

See, I'd agree that the public enables him, but if Bay's making millions by contributing further to the downward spiral, is he not equally complicit? Is he not just as bad for the culture as those who willingly see his tripe?

Downward spiral, or just a broadened fanbase? Is it Bay's fault if the public wants stupider and stupider entertainment? He continues to lower the bar, but the public continues to slurp it up. So, who's at fault?

Also remember that many of Bay's films appeal to teens and people in their early-20s. When I was that age, I watched a lot of garbage. I wouldn't exactly call Bay's target audience "discriminating."

And at the same time, if people who are not film fans the way we are want to watch mindless crap, then that's their prerogative. I see no real harm in it.


I don't think anyone here is against the principle of big dumb movies as a way to legitimately make money. I think they're against Bay making poorly-made crap and being cognizant of it, and continuing to do it.

My own opinions of Bay are not favorable. I'm partially playing Devil's Advocate here. The last Bay movie I saw was Con Air.

[number8]

Um, Bay was not at all involved with Con Air.

[Spun Lepton]

Um, Bay was not at all involved with Con Air.

D'OH! The Rock, then.

Bruckheimer and Bay are interchangable in my mind.

[Stay Puft]

So many people mistake Con Air for a Michael Bay film that every time I see it happen now I just assume it's a gag meme, like saying Castlevania is the best Capcom franchise.

[Sycophant]

That's a gag meme?

[Dead & Messed Up]

Downward spiral, or just a broadened fanbase? Is it Bay's fault if the public wants stupider and stupider entertainment? He continues to lower the bar, but the public continues to slurp it up. So, who's at fault?

Both parties are complicit in their gradual implosion of stupidity. The debris will consist of pieces of McGriddle, buttery-flavored-topping, bits of the American flag, and Megan Fox's collagen.


Also remember that many of Bay's films appeal to teens and people in their early-20s. When I was that age, I watched a lot of garbage. I wouldn't exactly call Bay's target audience "discriminating."

I can forgive people up to, maybe, the age of eleven or twelve. People in their twenties who enjoy such things deserve a punch to the coccyx.


And at the same time, if people who are not film fans the way we are want to watch mindless crap, then that's their prerogative. I see no real harm in it.

That's because you've been body-snatched, just like the rest of them, and I am the man heroically shouting for truth in the street, declaring "THEY'RE HERE ALREADY! YOU'RE NEXT!"


My own opinions of Bay are not favorable. I'm partially playing Devil's Advocate here. The last Bay movie I saw was Con Air.

That was directed by Simon West, produced by Bruckheimer.

Perhaps if you saw how far the bar fell since Bad Boys and The Rock, you'd be on my side.

[Stay Puft]

That's a gag meme?

Interchanging Capcom and Konami? Yeah.

[KK2.0]

To clarify all of this is in reference to 8's comments about Bay. If he is aware of what he's doing and capable of making better films and isn't (and I think this is likely the case) then I find his actions reprehensible.


Is he capable of making better films? I thought Pearl Harbor was his attempt at something different, and that movie only worked when shit was blowing up. :lol:

maybe after that one he thought: "i guess drama isn't for me, i'll go back to be xplosion-bay and die filthy rich".

[Qrazy]

Perhaps in an unrealistic, high-school-tinged world, making "art" soley for profit is selling out. But, in the real world, sometimes artists need to "sell out" occassionally in order to live off of their art. It might be all romantic to be the starving-artist type, mooching off your girl/boyfriend while making your "art", but it doesn't fly in real life. Or, rather, it's a rare thing when somebody can make a decent living off of their art.

Are you the same person I had the Slumdog Millionaire argument with? Or do you all just attend the same school of rhetoric. Lesson one, reduce any moral claim to idealist, immature fantasy. Lesson two, follow reduction by the overgeneralization of terminology such that making a living off of one's art is artificially equated to making art SOLELY for profit.

These things are not equivalent.



Is that Bay's fault, or the fault of all the people who go see his trash on opening weekend? From my perspective, Bay's just taking advantage of an opportunity.

So are the arms dealers, the tobacco lobbyists, the heroin dealers. Again not saying what Bay is doing is equivalent, simply saying that just beacuse there is a demand for a service does not remove the culpability for delivering that service. Furthermore I think there is a relationship between what the audience demands and what is delivered. I see no justification for massive product placement other than pure greed. He's not some artist trying to eke out a living here. He's filthy rich and based upon his filmic output his sole goal seems to be to become more so by making pandering garbage. Your argument for Bay could just as well be applied to any situation where artistic merit is expelled in favor of the easy sell. Reality TV and mindless game shows ride high on the crest of this fallacy.


They provide lots of people with entertainment. See those profits? Hate on them all you like, but in many cases, if it weren't for these big, stupid movies, then your "soulful" art films might not have the money to be made. Studios do not survive without profits, believe it or not.

What an absurd statement a) because I already said I like these types of films when they're done well (Nolan's Batman films... huge profit) and not purely as a cash grab. b) the art films which you are referring to which I like are largely produced outside of the Hollywood system and c) adjusted for inflation there are plenty of big films which made bank which aren't mindless nonsense.


Then you needs some real problems to worry about.

OK so anyone who doesn't agree with your approach to art, morality and life needs real problems to worry about? Another hollow rhetorical ploy. We're on a movie website. This conversation falls well within that scope. If someone has the capacity to produce something of value and chooses not to out of greed that is in my eyes reprehensible. This is not an earth shattering perspective.

[Scar]

I can forgive people up to, maybe, the age of eleven or twelve. People in their twenties who enjoy such things deserve a punch to the coccyx.



No.

[Spun Lepton]

UUGGGHH. I don't have the time or the energy to keep this up. YOU WIN QRAZY YOU WIN YAAAAAAYYYYYY NOW SHUT THE HELL UP PLEASE.

[MacGuffin]

Even when Qrazy loses, he wins.

[number8]

So apparently Megan Fox really sucks at promoting movies. From her Early Show appearance:


I don't know how you saw it in IMAX without having a brain aneurysm or at least a migraine headache... I'm in the movie, and I read the script, and I watched the movie, and I still didn't know what was happening. So I think if you haven't read the script and you go and you see it and you understand it, I think you might be a genius.

[MacGuffin]

So apparently Megan Fox really sucks at promoting movies. From her Early Show appearance:

It sounds like Megan Fox is only in it for the money, if you were to ask me about my opinion.

[transmogrifier]

It sounds like Megan Fox is only in it for the money, if you were to ask me about my opinion.

Whereas the rest of the actors chose to appear for the artistic sustinence only Transformers 2 could provide?

[Ezee E]

I wonder what movies Megan Fox does like.

She hasn't been shameful about it. I swore that she publicly said that she got great money out of it, and has yet to have a good role offered to her as well.

[Grouchy]

I wonder what movies Megan Fox does like.

She hasn't been shameful about it. I swore that she publicly said that she got great money out of it, and has yet to have a good role offered to her as well.
I have about great roles that are MADE for her. Do you understand that? MADE FOR HER.

Movie was hilarious. Decepticons balls, John Turturro ass. Astounding stuff.

[angrycinephile]

This was awful.

It's sorta reminiscent of Bad Boys II in the sense that it can barely be called a film. It's just a series of bits; a series of comedy and action scenes edited together for two and a half hours. Orci/Kurtzman aren't really to blame. The major problem is of course that Bay is a poor storyteller. I'm a firm believer that even if Bay got an amazing script on his desk he would still find a way into making it an incoherent mess.

And even the people who liked this film must admit that the last battle was terrible. It was just Bay showing off military hardware, it was sloppy and had major continuity problems. Actually, that can be said for the whole film. And when the robots actually did fight during the climax it was mostly new characters that had never been established. Classic Transformers-characters like Ironhide or Ratchet was there in one shot and then wasn't seen again. The fight between Optimus and The Fallen was over too quick, and The Fallen himself was a boring villain.

I did like John Turturro though. The only timed I laughed (unintentional laughs not counting) was when he started delivering lines like he was narrating a trailer; "One man alone... betrayed by his country... must save us all...". For some reason I found that quite funny. The second half of the film would have been far more boring without his presence. Shia did what he could, and Megan Fox was for some reason a little bit better in this film than she was in the first, so a little bit better than miserably inept.

The Twins were very annoying. Besides, they had more prominent roles than classic Transformers such as Soundwave, Devastator and Ironhide and that's not acceptable.

I wouldn't mind if another director does the next one.

[trotchky]

Guys, guys, I just found out that Shia LaBeouf directed this pretty rad music video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4Sxm6zx4e8).

[Dukefrukem]

So apparently Megan Fox really sucks at promoting movies. From her Early Show appearance:

That's priceless.

[Spun Lepton]

Roger Ebert's rebuttal to angry Transformers 2 defenders.

http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2009/07/i_am_a_brainiac.html

[Spaceman Spiff]

The illiterate negro robots were ridiculous. This movie was fucking retarded.

[Spaceman Spiff]

negro robots

Negroids?

*ponders*

[trotchky]

I wish Ebert wrote reviews the way he writes his blog entries.

[Spun Lepton]

Negroids?

*ponders*

Negrots?

[Spaceman Spiff]

Negrots?

The opposite of Deceptobros, I imagine.

[Derek]

Ghettobots, people.

[number8]

Devin from CHUD got it right: Sambots.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Devin from CHUD got it right: Sambots.

I think Deceptobros wins.

[Ivan Drago]

Roger Ebert's rebuttal to angry Transformers 2 defenders.

http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2009/07/i_am_a_brainiac.html

He linked to the Robot Chicken video.

I love that man.

[lovejuice]

so i enjoy the experience, although mine is pretty unique. after two week of lost in translation in hamburg, i finally found a theatre that showed films in original language. it's a dingy little place with one screen of moderate size and no cool-assed sound system. there are about a dozen people, and even though we are all strangers, i recognize all of them as lost souls too in a european city.

in short, i watch a summer movie in an "art house" theatre. which is pretty cool. because the screen is not too big and the sound not too loud, unlike most of you guys, i never feel the movie really rapes my senses.

still it's a fucking terrible movie. almost to the point that it should be shown in every film class as how not to do a movie. it's a mockery to the muses that this shit sold like hot cake.

one thing though that i really like is bay's hard on for militarism. he pushes it to almost a personal level. i really wish to see his take on some of the controversial wars like vietnam or iraq. it might be...interesting.

[number8]

one thing though that i really like is bay's hard on for militarism. he pushes it to almost a personal level. i really wish to see his take on some of the controversial wars like vietnam or iraq. it might be...interesting.

I don't think he has an opinion either way. I doubt he really cares. He has a worship for the US military that is very much akin to how a 13 year old playing Call of Duty sees the military. It's like a badass, adrenaline-fueled summer camp.

But it's funny that I've seen conservative movie blogs praising him for it. I remember Robert from IESB did a rant about GI Joe a year ago criticizing the movie changing the "American Heroes" to an international team instead. He was telling Sommers to collaborate with the Army and pay them the respect that Michael Bay does in his movies.

[Dukefrukem]

$8 million to the writers of the screenplay???

[Sycophant]

$8 million to the writers of the screenplay???

Yep.

[lovejuice]

But it's funny that I've seen conservative movie blogs praising him for it. I remember Robert from IESB did a rant about GI Joe a year ago criticizing the movie changing the "American Heroes" to an international team instead. He was telling Sommers to collaborate with the Army and pay them the respect that Michael Bay does in his movies.
and not to mention his "anti-obama" stance. (i put this in quotation marks since i really don't buy that.)

i do think he cares though. i imagine his childhood as a scrawny kid who dreamed of one day becoming a marine, but was too wimpy for that type of physical training. instead he entered film school and re-imagined army as "a badass, adrenaline-fueled summer camp." cute, isn't it?

[Spun Lepton]

Rumor has it that Megan Fox's audition tape for the first Transformers was her washing Michael Bay's car while he filmed it.

http://www.scifisquad.com/2009/07/07/megan-foxs-transformers-audition-tape/

Casting couch is alive and well, folks!

[number8]

What's hilarious is that when I heard about that, the first thing that crossed my mind is that it's actually relevant to her role.

[Ezee E]

This is now China's highest grossing movie ever.

[Ezee E]

A friend of mine chose this over Public Enemies (will I see this movie?), so I was expecting the worst and came out somewhat surprised.

Yes, it's ridiculous. But its so over-the-top that I couldn't help but enjoy it. It basically seemed like I was watching a live-action anime. The most bizarre part of the movie must be the female transformer that has no explanation whatsoever. Then again, hardly any of the movie really does. Its basically just high moments with buildup or relief for two-plus hours.

The sound design is pretty remarkable though.

[Dukefrukem]

It's amazing. All the reviews and reports in this thread are true. This movie is so bad... so bad. From the hunting of the transformers who are seamlessly doing nothing wrong on the planet, to how the Decepticon find the missing shards, to the illiterate transformers, to the DIALOG. Tyrese has the worst lines in any big movie I've ever seen.

lines like, after seeing the onslaught of decepticons] We're about to get our asses Whooped!

Epps: We've shed blood, sweat, and precious metal together...
Galloway: Soldier, you're trained to shoot, not to talk.
Epps: Don't tempt me...

And my favorite;

Demolishor: This planet is not yours to rule... the Fallen shall rise again.
Epps: That did not sound good.

The whole college scene is ridiculous. Smokin hot girls everywhere, the dorms, the party and then the transformer chick. LaBeouf does ok. Fox is hot but she doesn't say much. And the action scenes are retarded. When the helicopter pierces the car????

The best part of the movie is Rainn Wilson.

[Henry Gale]

The best part of the movie is Rainn Wilson.

When the weakest part of The Office is the strongest part of Transformers 2 in a two-minute role, Office looks that much better. (But I honestly found him just as out of place and useless as anything else in the movie.)

Saw some of it on Blu-ray yesterday and it of course looks damn spiffy. The scene with Megatron on the Transformers' home planet and the forest battle are visually my favourite things in the movie, and both of them look gorgeous. It's really stupid how the IMAX footage is only available at Target in the states though...

But it really confuses me that since the summer, people that liked the first one and now hate this one seem to now hold the former in a much higher regard as if it was something to live up to. They're BOTH bad, mindless movies, the new one is just longer.

[Dukefrukem]

Yeh the two best visual parts are the forest battle and the destruction of the aircraft carrier. That scene was so crazy detailed.

A lot of the scenery didn't make sense. One second their in Washington DC inside the Air and Space Museum, then they're walking out the back door into an endless field of Boeing jets as far as the eye could see in the middle of a field/desert. WTF?

[number8]

One second their in Washington DC inside the Air and Space Museum, then they're walking out the back door into an endless field of Boeing jets as far as the eye could see in the middle of a field/desert. WTF?

The wife, who is from DC, laughed her ass off at this.

[Morris Schæffer]

But it really confuses me that since the summer, people that liked the first one and now hate this one seem to now hold the former in a much higher regard as if it was something to live up to. They're BOTH bad, mindless movies, the new one is just longer.

The first one had a novelty value relating to its concept and FX that really gave it an edge over a lot of summer blockbusters. It also wasn't as irritatingly unfunny as the sequel.

Splitting hairs though I suppose.

[Skitch]

But it really confuses me that since the summer, people that liked the first one and now hate this one seem to now hold the former in a much higher regard as if it was something to live up to. They're BOTH bad, mindless movies, the new one is just longer.

This is why I've gotten into so many TF2 arguments. Want to hate the movie? I have no problem with that. I just don't understand how anyone could claim to love the first and hate the second. I think they have the same amount of over-the-topness, same swing-and-miss humor, same filmmaking flaws...

...oh, and the same boner inducing nostalgia awesomness. :lol:

[Dukefrukem]

This is why I've gotten into so many TF2 arguments. Want to hate the movie? I have no problem with that. I just don't understand how anyone could claim to love the first and hate the second. I think they have the same amount of over-the-topness, same swing-and-miss humor, same filmmaking flaws...

...oh, and the same boner inducing nostalgia awesomness. :lol:

No way. There's so many more inconstancies, over the topness, and swing-and-miss humor in T2 than T. Plus the dialog! Oh the dialog is so much worse. It's almost as if they wrote T2, and forgot to give Tyrese any lines. Then went back and made him say the most one-liners possible, topping all of Bill Murray's movies combined.

Then there's the racist transformers, the stupid small toy truck decepticon humor, the stupid parents humor, the stupid roommate scenes with that stupid deli guy....

Plus this teaser alone (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYitED2mmKw) was enough to get me to theaters for the first moive. The helicopter landing scene, the desert scorpion thing scene with the transformer coming out of the sand, the transformer coming out of the pool; it was much more creative imagery with a lot of potential. I even remember laughing a little when LaBeouf was trying to hide all the trasnfomers at his house without his parents knowing.

The only thing the second movie does better than the first, is distinguishing the different sides of robots when they fighting hand to hand combat. I could actually tell who was who this time around.

[Adam]

Nah, this movie and the first one are both hot zoo garbage, for sure, but can someone explain to me why I want to hate Shia Laboeuf so hard going into anything with him in it and yet I invariably come out being totally indifferent to the guy?

[Dukefrukem]

Nah, this movie and the first one are both hot zoo garbage, for sure, but can someone explain to me why I want to hate Shia Laboeuf so hard going into anything with him in it and yet I invariably come out being totally indifferent to the guy?

He's got the charm. Even in small roles where he appears he steals the scene; case in point, iRobot. He's probably in that movie for 5 minutes but is still able to distract you from Will Smith.

[lovejuice]

Nah, this movie and the first one are both hot zoo garbage, for sure, but can someone explain to me why I want to hate Shia Laboeuf so hard going into anything with him in it and yet I invariably come out being totally indifferent to the guy?
indeed. i prepare to hate him in Indy IV, and even then i can't. not to say the beef does a good job, though.

[Skitch]

No way. There's so many more inconstancies, over the topness, and swing-and-miss humor in T2 than T. Plus the dialog! Oh the dialog is so much worse. It's almost as if they wrote T2, and forgot to give Tyrese any lines.


Mother of god, here we go again. Completely disagree. Whatever, I've been through it too many times before, so go ahead, keep your over-positive memory of the first one.

...and its TF and TF2, man. Theres only one T2, and it ain't Transformers. :)

[Dukefrukem]

Mother of god, here we go again. Completely disagree. Whatever, I've been through it too many times before, so go ahead, keep your over-positive memory of the first one.

...and its TF and TF2, man. Theres only one T2, and it ain't Transformers. :)

I think we're still both comparing crap to a steaming pile... but Transformers has the edge of the sequel.

And yeh, T2 is Terminator 2, but TF2 is Team Fortress 2. So... I'll just spell it out from now on. (Transfomers is still one word)

[number8]

Shia is really, really good in New York, I Love You. I was shocked.

[megladon8]

Shia is really, really good in New York, I Love You. I was shocked.


N-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-no!!!

[number8]

So anyway, Megan Fox did an apology to Michael Bay at the Scream Awards when she accepted the Best Actress award. It was laughably scripted.

[Skitch]

So anyway, Megan Fox did an apology to Michael Bay at the Scream Awards when she accepted the Best Actress award. It was laughably scripted.

:lol:

Mr. Bay will have to work very damn hard to stop making me laugh.

[angrycinephile]

I hated Transformers 2 but I am a little tempted to rent the DVD just to check out the special features...

Taken from a thread on RT:


[the features] shows the exact moment Bay comes up with the idea of Devastator's balls. It's on camera. He's talking to a concept artist and goes "you know what I was thinking, how bout if we add wrecking balls for balls...isn't that funny?"...artist says nothing and smiles looking down. Again Bay asks "isn't that funny?" The man won't look Bay in the eye and just nods.

That just sounds so amazing. I would love to hear the audio commentary with Bay too.

[number8]

You are right. I need to get it.

[Spun Lepton]

[the features] shows the exact moment Bay comes up with the idea of Devastator's balls. It's on camera. He's talking to a concept artist and goes "you know what I was thinking, how bout if we add wrecking balls for balls...isn't that funny?"...artist says nothing and smiles looking down. Again Bay asks "isn't that funny?" The man won't look Bay in the eye and just nods.

Concept Artist's Thoughts: "If I say no, I'll get fired. Just nod. NOD!!"

I'd actually love to see this moment.

[[ETM]]

"We're directly below... [whispers]the enemy scrotum."

I love how even in the movie itself it's embarrassing.