Match Cut Madness 3: Best of the 00s

[baby doll]

Speaking of Children of Men, I was in a bookshop flipping through a collection of James Wood reviews when I came upon this quote from his review of Cormac McCarthy's The Road (https://newrepublic.com/article/64041/getting-the-end):


If Britain, in Children of Men, twenty years hence, is ruled by a totalitarian dictator who can round up immigrants and put them in cages, why can't this same all-powerful ruler clean up the garbage? [...] It is the common weakness of novels such as Walter Miller's A Canticle for Leibowitz, Doris Lessing's The Memoirs of a Survivor, P.D. James's Children of Men, Kazuo Ishiguro's Never Let Me Go, or even Anthony Burgess's A Clockwork Orange and Orwell's 1984, that they are all to some extent science-fiction allegories in which the author extrapolates from the present, using hypothetical developments in the future to comment on crises that he or she sees as already imminent in his or her own time. [...] There is nothing wrong with any of this, except that some essential illusionistic pressure is taken off the novelist, who can then merely describe the life that we know but with a twist, the old world that most of us recognize but that is suddenly more horrid to live in.

[transmogrifier]

Get YiYi the fuck outta here. Easiest path ever.

Nah - from most difficult to easiest path:

1. Memento (Assassination of Jesse James - In the Mood for Love - There Will Be Blood) - I voted against it in the first two rounds
2. Before Sunset (Adaptation - Spring Summer Fall Winter... and Spring - Mulholland Dr.)
3. Children of Men (Battle Royale - Ratatouille - Zodiac) - should have lost in the 1st and 3rd round
4. Yi Yi (The Incredibles - FOTR - Inglourious Basterds)
5. Spirited Away (The Descent - Punch-Drunk Love - 25th Hour)
6. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind (Primer - Finding Nemo - Shaun of the Dead)
7. Wall-E (Kung Fu Hustle - Y Tu Mama Tambien - A Serious Man)
8. No Country for Old Men (Moon - Requiem for a Dream - Kill Bill Vol. 1) - this was always a favorite, but boy did it come up against some average films

[Ezee E]

I take that back. Spirited Away had an easy ride.

But still, get the hell out of here

[Idioteque Stalker]

Nah - from most difficult to easiest path:

1. Memento (Assassination of Jesse James - In the Mood for Love - There Will Be Blood) - I voted against it in the first two rounds
2. Before Sunset (Adaptation - Spring Summer Fall Winter... and Spring - Mulholland Dr.)
3. Children of Men (Battle Royale - Ratatouille - Zodiac) - should have lost in the 1st and 3rd round
4. Yi Yi (The Incredibles - FOTR - Inglourious Basterds)
5. Spirited Away (The Descent - Punch-Drunk Love - 25th Hour)
6. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind (Primer - Finding Nemo - Shaun of the Dead)
7. Wall-E (Kung Fu Hustle - Y Tu Mama Tambien - A Serious Man)
8. No Country for Old Men (Moon - Requiem for a Dream - Kill Bill Vol. 1) - this was always a favorite, but boy did it come up against some average films

I agree with almost all of this, except I think Yi Yi's path was more difficult than you say, and Children of Men's was less difficult.

[Idioteque Stalker]

With ~24 hours left to go, we have one really close match-up:

Wall-E vs. Yi Yi

If you've been thinking about voting and have a preference in these match-ups (or any others), now would be a great time to vote by posting in this thread or sending me a PM.

[quido8_5]

Fuck it: Yi Yi.

I really wanted to rewatch Yi Yi before voting, but I just couldn't find that much time. I haven't seen Yi Yi in a while but when I my top 50 list over a decade ago, it was number two, only behind Eternal Sunshine. Even though I have watched Wall E eight times in the last year (and just grew more deeply enamored with it), I can't go against a movie that was so formative and still resonates.

[Idioteque Stalker]

The Elite Eight is now closed. Here are MC's results:


No Country for Old Men vs. Spirited Away (UPSET)
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind vs. Before Sunset
Memento vs. Children of Men (UPSET)
Wall-E vs. Yi Yi (NAILBITER)

[Philip J. Fry]

At least I've seen all of the final four.

[Ezee E]

Miyazaki taking this.

[Peng]

What the lord giveth (Memento), the lord taketh away (Before Sunset).

Also should have known my comment about non-American films never/barely making it in these threads would come back to bite me lol, since the only one left here is my least favorite among the four (love and still think it very good, just the other three I love so much more).

[Idioteque Stalker]

Miyazaki taking this.

I would be 100% okay with this regardless of how I end up voting.

[Yxklyx]

I'd like to watch Spirited Away again but don't see it Streaming anywhere. Anyone here use Kanopy through their local library - maybe it's there.

[Dukefrukem]

I'd like to watch Spirited Away again but don't see it Streaming anywhere. Anyone here use Kanopy through their local library - maybe it's there.

It's streaming on HBOMax.

https://www.justwatch.com/us/movie/spirited-away

[Idioteque Stalker]

Voting for the Final Four is now open! Vote now by posting in this thread or sending me a PM.

Spirited Away vs. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind
Memento vs. Wall-E



The Stories Told by the Final Four

-- In the 80s Madness Final Four, it was High-Brow vs. Low-Brow. (http://matchcut.artboiled.com/showthread.php?8052-The-Filmspotting-Madness-Thread-In-Which-We-All-Become-Abhorrent-Monsters/page8&p=636058&viewfull=1#post636058) With a prestigious champion (Do the Right Thing) followed by two genre films (The Shining and Aliens, leaving Amadeus on the outside looking in), neither camp ended up the clear winner. For the 90s, somehow to the chagrin of its own voting body, it was Jarod's Picks. (http://matchcut.artboiled.com/showthread.php?8074-Match-Cut-Madness-2-Best-of-the-90s/page15&p=638691&viewfull=1#post638691) With Goodfellas as champion, followed by Pulp Fiction and Fargo -- and Boogie Nights left shriveling in the cold -- these four ensemble crime dramedies are movies Match Cut hates to love.

-- With merely a single #1 seed left surviving, nobody would have predicted MC's Final Four of the 00s. In an adjacent timeline it could've been Art-House Auteurs (Lynch and WKW) vs. Hollywood Mainstays (Coens and Tarantino); in yet another we may have followed in Filmspotting's footsteps with Westerns (No Country and TWWB) vs. Sci-Fi/Fantasy (Eternal Sunshine and LOTR). But now that the votes are in and the dust has settled, which movies are left standing? In the future when, for posterity, bards sing song of the 00s, which names will be upon their quivering tongue? What shall be the story of this madness?

-- Animated vs. Live-Action, you say? Well okay then! Spirited Away and Wall-E have not only broken the previous record for animated films in MC Madness -- either one now has a legitimate shot at taking the crown. In fact, an all-animated championship is a real possibility. On the other hand, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind has been a favorite throughout the tournament, while Memento is coming off several major upsets in a row (that's right, people: Christopher Nolan smells of an underdog).

Who will advance to the championship and make MC Madness history? Live-action or animated? Actors or illustrators? Memory or imagination? Find out when voting closes in three days!

[Philip J. Fry]

Spirited Away vs. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind
Memento vs. WALL-E

[Skitch]

Spirited Away vs. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind
Memento vs. Wall-E

Eternal Sunshine shouldn't have made it this far. In the battle of "which movie holds up", I'd say Momento over ESOTSM, and thats seeing both in the last 6 months.

[transmogrifier]

Spirited Away vs. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind (this should be the final match-up for these four films; damn bracket!)
Memento vs. WALL-E


(Here is the real best four of the decade: Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, Before Sunset, Mulholland Drive, In the Mood for Love)​

[baby doll]

Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind > Spirited Away (but I love both)
Wall-E > Memento (but both are wildly overrated)

[baby doll]

Here is the real best four of the decade:In the Mood for Love, Mulholland Dr., La mujer sin cabeza, Vincere

[Idioteque Stalker]

La mujer sin cabeza

Watchlisted. Enjoyed La Cienaga.

EDIT: My personal top four would be Eternal Sunshine, Crouching Tiger, Russian Ark, and either Wall-E or Spirited Away.

[Lazlo]

Spirited Away vs. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind
Memento vs. Wall-E

[Peng]

Spirited Away vs. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind
Memento vs. Wall-E

[DFA1979]

Spirited Away vs. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind-Oof, tough.
Memento vs. WALL-E-Huh this is weird but ok.

[Ivan Drago]

Spirited Away vs. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind
Memento vs. Wall-E

[Yxklyx]

Spirited Away vs. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind
Memento vs. Wall-E

Edit: Personal Top Four: Mulholland Drive, Amelie, LOTR: The Fellowship of the Ring, Donnie Darko

(all from 2001, I think movie makers fed off others in their profession like what happened in '39)

[Ezee E]

Spirited Away vs. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind
Memento vs. Wall-E

Would've never bet on Memento to make it to the Final Four, no matter what odds were offered.

[Skitch]

Would've never bet on Memento to make it to the Final Four, no matter what odds were offered.

Me either, but I'm cool with it.

[Idioteque Stalker]

Spirited Away vs. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind (OUCH)
Memento vs. Wall-E (ouch)

Had to post now to slow Memento's roll.

[Gizmo]

Spirited Away vs. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind (winner)
Memento vs. Wall-E (runner-up)

[quido8_5]

Spirited Away vs. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind
Memento vs. Wall-E

I don't know if there's any slowing of Memento's roll.

Edit: I think that this is the strongest and most interesting final four yet. They're all great films. I won't be disappointed no matter what the outcome.

Spirited Away: ****.5
Eternal Sunshine *****
Memento ****
Wall-E *****

[bac0n]

Spirited Away vs. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind
Memento vs. Wall-E

This one is like trying to choose your favorite flavor of ice cream.

[quido8_5]

Spirited Away vs. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind
Memento vs. Wall-E

This one is like trying to choose your favorite flavor of ice cream.

Or choosing your favorite child... Except a whole lot harder.

[bac0n]

Oh, choosing my favorite kid is easy. I just go with the one who is less of a disappointment #fatheroftheyear.

[megladon8]

Spirited Away
Memento

[dreamdead]

Spirited Away
Memento

[Idioteque Stalker]

With fewer than 24 hours left to go, we have one really close match-up:

Spirited Away vs. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind

If you've been thinking about voting and have a preference in this match-ups (or the other), now would be a great time to vote by posting in this thread or sending me a PM.

[quido8_5]

With fewer than 24 hours left to go, we have one really close match-up:

Spirited Away vs. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind

If you've been thinking about voting and have a preference in this match-ups (or the other), now would be a great time to vote by posting in this thread or sending me a PM.

Just a reminder that this is how Eternal Sunshine ends. All relationships walk this precipice between the ideal and the realistic. I don't know of another film that so succinctly captures this double bind than ESotSM. No arguing against Spirited Away. Just saying...


https://youtu.be/wsZSZ_vcCvA

[Skitch]

Closer expressed real relationships better.

[Idioteque Stalker]

Closer expressed real relationships better.

Oof. Now that is a depressing notion.

[transmogrifier]

I think Skitch hit his head today.

[Skitch]

I think Skitch hit his head today.

I understand how that seems bananas. Imagine existing in a world where you find everyone around you so insane that what I said seems normal. I live in that world.

I'm not offended or anything, but that was a tad harsh there, trans lol shit

[quido8_5]

Closer expressed real relationships better.

I was thinking more Audition.

[Dukefrukem]

Just a reminder that this is how Eternal Sunshine ends. All relationships walk this precipice between the ideal and the realistic. I don't know of another film that so succinctly captures this double bind than ESotSM. No arguing against Spirited Away. Just saying...


https://youtu.be/wsZSZ_vcCvA

Yeh no one talks like that. This is why I hate that movie. No one psychoanalyzes themselves in a relationship to their partner.

[megladon8]

Realistic dialogue does not equal good dialogue. And unrealistic does not equal bad.

QT writes dialogue that is supremely unrealistic. But it is also one of his biggest strengths.

Also, I have had several conversations where I psychoanalyzed myself while speaking to Jen. Especially over the last 18 months.

[quido8_5]

Yeh no one talks like that. This is why I hate that movie. No one psychoanalyzes themselves in a relationship to their partner.

I'm not sure if I understand your argument. Most Bergman and Allen films do precisely this. Psychoanalysis is super fascinating on screen.

[baby doll]

Movie aren't real life. What matters isn't whether movie dialogue is realistic but whether it works dramatically.

I haven't seen Closer since it was in theaters but I remember being bored silly at the time by its mainstreaming of Neil Labute, the underlying rationale for which appears to be that Your Friends and Neighbors would be improved by making the characters less unpleasant, casting bigger stars, and setting the dialogue in ritzier settings. Unfortunately, despite these "enhancements," I didn't find any of the characters believable or interesting as dramatic characters.

The characters in Gondry's film scarcely seem to exist beyond their functions in the plot, some traits seem glued on (e.g., Winslet's whimsical hair colours), and some of the dialogue is a bit on-the-nose (Dunst reading the titular poem), but these ultimately strike me as fairly minor flaws since the film is more about plot than character.

[Skitch]

I haven't seen Closer since it was in theaters but I remember being bored silly at the time by its mainstreaming of Neil Labute, the underlying rationale for which appears to be that Your Friends and Neighbors would be improved by making the characters less unpleasant, casting bigger stars, and setting the dialogue in ritzier settings. Unfortunately, despite these "enhancements," I didn't find any of the characters believable or interesting as dramatic characters.


I know youre comparing the characters in Closer to a sci-fi movie, but to twist it a bit, the characters in Before Sunrise are unpleasant, big stars, with dialogue in a ritzy setting (whatever the fuck that means). That honestly might be the dumbest criticism I've ever heard lol

[Ezee E]

I remember REALLY not liking Eternal Sunshine last time I watched it. Maybe just not liking Jim Carrey's character at all is what I remember the most. I've never loved the dialog in that movie, it was always Gondry's direction that had me initially, and the creative use of special effects.

Whatever happened to him anyway?

[Skitch]

I loved ES first watch and I recently rewatched it and holy hell is it depressing. And the characters are dumb as hell. Its cute the first round, but round two its like, what the hell are you doing? Still a good movie, but damn.

[Idioteque Stalker]

You have to remember the context of that ending scene... They've been listening to tapes of themselves ripping the other to shreds. Anything OTHER than self-reflection in that moment is what would be unrealistic. Plus her "I'm not a concept" spiel is a rehearsed line she performs for all potential partners, so if there is a layer of artifice then that is to the script's credit by way of added irony since he's heard it many times before but doesn't remember and totally buys it.

[Irish]

Psychoanalysis is super fascinating on screen.

Hard disagree. Most of the time it's used as a crutch, and I cringe whenever a character visits a shrink bc it's usually a sign the writer is out of ideas.

The problem is in using psychoanalysis as a shortcut, as a way of getting directly into the character's head in a way that's usually reserved to novels, and with characters suddenly exhibiting a level of emotional clarity and self awareness that no human being actually possesses.

The posted "Eternal Sunshine" clip is a bit wobbly. When what's-her-name-says "I'll get bored and leave you," it's a sneaky bit of dramatic irony. The audience already knows she'll throw the guy over, so when she delivers that startlingly self aware line, we can nod sagely and feel smart. It's is meant to be insightful moment that resonates with emotional depth, but it really doesn't do either.


youre comparing the characters in Closer to a sci-fi movie,

???

[Idioteque Stalker]

I cringe whenever a character visits a shrink bc it's usually a sign the writer is out of ideas.

Not disagreeing with you per se, but I couldn't help but think of the scene from Happiness in which Hoffman says, "I'm just such a boring person. People see me and say 'wow, how boring..." and the audio cuts to his shrink's inner monologue about picking up the kids from school, what's on the grocery list, etc. First of many laugh out loud moments from that movie.



Whatever happened to him anyway?

Gondry's movies receive just enough support that he hasn't been a total bust, but there's no discernible trajectory. For someone who is considered some type of auteur (mostly due to his music videos and Eternal Sunshine), I see no connective tissue whatsoever between stuff like Be Kind Rewind, The Green Hornet, The We and the I, Mood Indigo, and Is the Man Who Is Tall Happy. I watched his movies for a while but gave up following him. The only thing beyond Eternal Sunshine that's worth much to me is Dave Chappelle's Block Party (yet another wtf entry in his filmography).

[Dukefrukem]

Movie aren't real life. What matters isn't whether movie dialogue is realistic but whether it works dramatically.

For you.

[Idioteque Stalker]

The Final Four is now closed. Here are MC's results:


Spirited Away vs. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind (UPSET + NAILBITER)
Memento vs. Wall-E

[Idioteque Stalker]

Voting for the Championship/Losers Bracket is now open! The Losers Bracket match-up is to determine 3rd place. Vote now by posting in this thread or sending me a PM.

Championship
Spirited Away vs. Memento

Losers Bracket
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind vs. Wall-E

Voting closes in three days!

[transmogrifier]

Spirited Away
ESotSM

[megladon8]

Spirited Away
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind

[baby doll]

I know youre comparing the characters in Closer to a sci-fi movie, but to twist it a bit, the characters in Before Sunrise are unpleasant, big stars, with dialogue in a ritzy setting (whatever the fuck that means). That honestly might be the dumbest criticism I've ever heard lolI have no objection to big stars playing pleasant characters in ritzy settings if those characters are dramatically creditable and interesting (as indeed I find the characters to be in Before Sunset). The problem with Closer is that the characters are neither creditable nor interesting; thus, the film's attempt to make a Labute film for the multiplex audience seems all the more pointless.

[quido8_5]

Hard disagree. Most of the time it's used as a crutch, and I cringe whenever a character visits a shrink bc it's usually a sign the writer is out of ideas.

The problem is in using psychoanalysis as a shortcut, as a way of getting directly into the character's head in a way that's usually reserved to novels, and with characters suddenly exhibiting a level of emotional clarity and self awareness that no human being actually possesses.

The posted "Eternal Sunshine" clip is a bit wobbly. When what's-her-name-says "I'll get bored and leave you," it's a sneaky bit of dramatic irony. The audience already knows she'll throw the guy over, so when she delivers that startlingly self aware line, we can nod sagely and feel smart. It's is meant to be insightful moment that resonates with emotional depth, but it really doesn't do either.



???

I agree that's often used as a crutch, especially when literal therapy is employed, although there are some notable exceptions (Ordinary People and Good Will Hunting come to mind). I was thinking about this as being rooted in unconscious motivations and exploring how our formative experiences still shape us. That's such a compelling theme of Bergman and Allen, among many others, that is uniquely suited to the medium.

For example, what makes the final dialogue of Eternal Sunshine so resonate for me is that it concisely summarizes much of what the film is about: we can erase memories, we can believe there's a chance for autonomy, but we are all drawn to what (and who) we are drawn to. Clementine repeats her "I'm just a fucked up girl..." line and Joel is ineluctably drawn to that. Despite knowing that things will almost certainly not work out, they still go for it-- with a shrug. The final shot, for me, has always felt like a perfect represention of romantic relationships. This may not be the first time their relationship has been recapitulated and it likely isn't the last. It's all just a cycle that becomes more oblique and indistinct after each iteration.

[baby doll]

For you.Movies, even documentaries, are not neutral transcriptions of some autonomously existing reality but are constructions. The art of cinema, or any medium, is a matter of the intentional selection and shaping raw material. There's no virtue in absolute verisimilitude.

[baby doll]

Spirited Away
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind

[Idioteque Stalker]

I am flabbergasted by this championship match-up. Totally unexpected. I love it, but wtf?

[quido8_5]

There's no virtue in absolute verisimilitude.

Isn't this definitionally impossible? Verisimilitude implies that absolute replication of reality is impossible. I agree with your point, but I think having this idealistic, impossible goal is worth of pursuit.

[Irish]

the scene from Happiness

(Ordinary People and Good Will Hunting come to mind)

- In these examples, the shrink is a major character with their own independent scenes, interior life, and individual backstory. Two of those movies are about emotional growth and the therapeutic process. Obviously, this is outside the scope of what I was addressing.

- Of course there are exceptions. That's why I used the word usually.


uniquely suited to the medium

- "Ordinary People" was based on a novel sooooooo ... ???

- The edit is unique to movies. Everything else is begged, borrowed, or stolen.

[Skitch]

Isn't this definitionally impossible? Verisimilitude implies that absolute replication of reality is impossible. I agree with your point, but I think having this idealistic, impossible goal is worth of pursuit.

Welcome to conversation with BD. He will now proceed to completely change any and all parameters of whatever conversation you've decided to engage him in.

[Skitch]

???

I wanted to acknowledge that while we are discussing movies about relationships, one carries a heavy scifi element that doesn't exist in the other. I am admitting that I'm bringing an orange to an apple conversation per se.

[Skitch]

Spirited Away
Wall-E (I guess)

[quido8_5]

- In these examples, the shrink is a major character with their own independent scenes, interior life, and individual backstory. Two of those movies are about emotional growth and the therapeutic process. Obviously, this is outside the scope of what I was addressing.

- Of course there are exceptions. That's why I used the word usually.

- "Ordinary People" was based on a novel sooooooo ... ???

- The edit is unique to movies. Everything else is begged, borrowed, or stolen.

The shrink isn't the major character in either of those movies. We know very little about the interior life of the shrink (name I can't recall) and Sean from Hunting. We know some facts, but little outside of that. Considering the novel, once again this helps me to express how the medium of film does a better job of capturing themes better than the word. The novel is heart-wrenching. Seeing it, feeling the silence within the family, knowing what is left unsaid, all of this adds up to more than the sum of its parts. The book is great, the film is better.

[Skitch]

I'm not trying to get into your guys debate, but since it was mentioned...what a performance by Robin Williams in GWH. Sweet christmas

[Yxklyx]

Spirited Away vs. Memento

Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind vs. Wall-E

[Yxklyx]

I am flabbergasted by this championship match-up. Totally unexpected. I love it, but wtf?

Well, the matchups kind of determine the champion which is why I was asking before - don't know of some other way to do them.

[Irish]

The shrink isn't the major character in either of those movies. We know very little about the interior life of the shrink (name I can't recall) and Sean from Hunting. We know some facts, but little outside of that. Considering the novel, once again this helps me to express how the medium of film does a better job of capturing themes better than the word. The novel is heart-wrenching. Seeing it, feeling the silence within the family, knowing what is left unsaid, all of this adds up to more than the sum of its parts. The book is great, the film is better.

A major character. A. Meaning that if you reduced the scenes around them, the movie would be significantly changed.

Besides that, I don't know what to tell ya if you can't see the inner life in Hirsch's or William's characters, or how they communicate that life through performance, outside of plot beats (ie, "facts").


how the medium of film does a better job of capturing themes better than the word

Whaaaaaa? Absolutely gobsmacked anyone could say this, about either medium.


knowing what is left unsaid

This suggests you're viewing the movie through the lens of the book.

(The movie is fine. The book is better bc it has more depth. The original story is about psychological distress, told in a medium that allows the reader direct insight into the characters' minds.)

[baby doll]

Isn't this definitionally impossible? Verisimilitude implies that absolute replication of reality is impossible. I agree with your point, but I think having this idealistic, impossible goal is worth of pursuit.It seems to me that, if a goal is not only undesirable but also unachievable, there is no reason to pursue it.

[DFA1979]

I was thinking more Audition.

Oh God. That movie is beyond fucked up.

[baby doll]

Oh God. That movie is beyond fucked up.My mother still talks about that movie.

[DFA1979]

I still haven't seen Closer or anything from Labute.

Championship
Spirited Away vs. Memento-Both are great but I was hoping In The Mood For Love would have made it here. Oh well.

Losers Bracket
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind vs. Wall-E-Two movies I love although i much prefer ESOTSM. I don't really feel the need to see Wall-E again where as I've viewed Eternal at least three or four times.

[DFA1979]

My mother still talks about that movie.

I finally saw it this year. I thought the movie was freaky before that infamous final act.

[DFA1979]

Movies, even documentaries, are not neutral transcriptions of some autonomously existing reality but are constructions. The art of cinema, or any medium, is a matter of the intentional selection and shaping raw material. There's no virtue in absolute verisimilitude.

Huh I actually agree with you here. Hell just froze over we can skate home folks.

[Philip J. Fry]

Spirited Away vs. Memento
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind vs. WALL-E

[Peng]

Spirited Away vs. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind
Memento vs. Wall-E

Championship
Spirited Away vs. Memento

Losers Bracket
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind vs. Wall-E

[transmogrifier]

Spirited Away vs. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind
Memento vs. Wall-E

That was last round.

[Peng]

That was last round.

Whoops, came in late and clicked back too far lol. Thanks, added in that comment.

[dreamdead]

Championship
Spirited Away vs. Memento

Losers Bracket
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind vs. Wall-E

[Lazlo]

Championship
Spirited Away vs. Memento

Losers Bracket
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind vs. Wall-E

[Skitch]

The problem with Closer is that the characters are neither creditable nor interesting;

For you. And your life experience.


thus,

Using this word in this way makes it seem like your opinion must be a fact, when it is an opinion. One you are welcome to have.

[Ezee E]

For a rather maddening tourney, the finals are blowouts:

Spirited Away
Eternal Sunshine

[quido8_5]

A major character. A. Meaning that if you reduced the scenes around them, the movie would be significantly changed.

Besides that, I don't know what to tell ya if you can't see the inner life in Hirsch's or William's characters, or how they communicate that life through performance, outside of plot beats (ie, "facts").



Whaaaaaa? Absolutely gobsmacked anyone could say this, about either medium.



This suggests you're viewing the movie through the lens of the book.

(The movie is fine. The book is better bc it has more depth. The original story is about psychological distress, told in a medium that allows the reader direct insight into the characters' minds.)

Yep, you're right.


It seems to me that, if a goal is not only undesirable but also unachievable, there is no reason to pursue it.

Yep, you're right.

Spirited Away
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind

[baby doll]

For you. And your life experience.

Using this word in this way makes it seem like your opinion must be a fact, when it is an opinion. One you are welcome to have.Life experience is irrelevant. I don't know anybody like the characters in Neil Labute's films either, but In the Company of Men, Your Friends and Neighbors, and The Shape of Things all strike me as believable and compelling as dramatic narratives (or at least they did in the early 2000s, which was when I last saw them), even though the twist endings of In the Company of Men and The Shape of Things are arguably a lot more far-fetched than anything in Nichols' film. It's hard for me to be very specific about Closer since I haven't seen it in sixteen years, but the characters' behaviour seemed dictated more by the demands of the plot than any internal necessity. In other words, one can feel the gears turning, whereas the far more audacious plot developments of Labute's films seem to emerge naturally from the characters' personalities and the logic of the situation. And if one accepts my premise that the characters in Closer are neither creditable nor interesting (which I readily grant is just my opinion), then it follows logically that the film's project of mainstreaming Labute is a pointless one: Labute did it first and he did it better.

[Dukefrukem]

quido8_5 do you use the word "Bro" often? Or just ironically?

[Skitch]

Life experience is irrelevant.

But saying the characters are not credible is invalidating them, as you don't/can't associate with them. I do.


... but the characters' behaviour seemed dictated more by the demands of the plot than any internal necessity. In other words, one can feel the gears turning, whereas the far more audacious plot developments of Labute's films seem to emerge naturally from the characters' personalities and the logic of the situation.

Who has said anything about Labute except you? Like the writers actors director are sitting around saying "Yeah we're really gonna bring this Labute shit in like a boss!" Maybe they were trying to make their own film?


And if one accepts my premise that the characters in Closer are neither creditable nor interesting (which I readily grant is just my opinion),

thats fine


then it follows logically that the film's project of mainstreaming Labute is a pointless one

and theres the weird baby doll leap that no one is making


Labute did it first and he did it better.

Oh here we go with this shit again...everything has been done before. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be tried again and it can't have a positive effect on someone.

[quido8_5]

quido8_5 do you use the word "Bro" often? Or just ironically?

Both. I also grew up with a family of five boys so we use it a whole lot.

[baby doll]

But saying the characters are not credible is invalidating them, as you don't/can't associate with them. I do.

Who has said anything about Labute except you? Like the writers actors director are sitting around saying "Yeah we're really gonna bring this Labute shit in like a boss!" Maybe they were trying to make their own film?

thats fine

and theres the weird baby doll leap that no one is making

Oh here we go with this shit again...everything has been done before. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be tried again and it can't have a positive effect on someone.There may be people in the world like the characters in Closer but that doesn't mean the characters' behaviour is convincing on the screen. Recognition ("I know people like this") is not the same thing as believability ("I believe that, under these specific circumstances, this character would do that"). As Aristotle puts it in the Poetics, "Things probable though impossible should be preferred to the possible but improbable." Everything that happens in Closer is possible but none of it seemed to me very probable.

As for the claim that everything has been done before, assuming this is true (and I don't think it is; Labute has cited Restoration comedy as an influence on In the Company of Men but the film's themes are too contemporary to dismiss it as a simple retread), what justification would there be--other than commerce--for people to go to all the trouble of making new movies? It seems like a waste of time and effort.

Incidentally, while it's conceivable that Nichols and co. weren't thinking of Labute while making the film (although given his extensive work in the theatre, it's hard to believe that Nichols wasn't at least aware of his work), the important thing is that I was thinking of Labute while watching it. Whether coincidental or not, the enormous overlap in subject matter, structure, and style makes a comparison between Closer and Your Friends and Neighbors all but inescapable, and it's not a comparison that favours the former.

[Gizmo]

Spirited Away
ESotSM

[Idioteque Stalker]

These match-ups are inching ever-closer to HUMILIATION territory.

[Ivan Drago]

Championship
Spirited Away vs. Memento

Losers Bracket
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind vs. Wall-E

[quido8_5]

These match-ups are inching ever-closer to HUMILIATION territory.

Yeah, I think the way things played out this ended up being some of the easiest choices for me of the whole competition. Still, this has been my favorite madness yet.

[Skitch]

There may be people in the world like the characters in Closer but that doesn't mean the characters' behaviour is convincing on the screen.

The important thing is that it was to me.*


Recognition ("I know people like this") is not the same thing as believability ("I believe that, under these specific circumstances, this character would do that"). As Aristotle puts it in the Poetics, "Things probable though impossible should be preferred to the possible but improbable." Everything that happens in Closer is possible but none of it seemed to me very probable.

Not only probable, but I've seen it, beat for beat.


As for the claim that everything has been done before, assuming this is true (and I don't think it is; Labute has cited Restoration comedy as an influence on In the Company of Men but the film's themes are too contemporary to dismiss it as a simple retread), what justification would there be--other than commerce--for people to go to all the trouble of making new movies? It seems like a waste of time and effort.

Because sometimes (not necessarily this time for this deviation of conversation) a story can be told better, or updated for newer thought, or improved upon. Progress.


Incidentally, while it's conceivable that Nichols and co. weren't thinking of Labute while making the film (although given his extensive work in the theatre, it's hard to believe that Nichols wasn't at least aware of his work), the important thing is that I was thinking of Labute while watching it. Whether coincidental or not, the enormous overlap in subject matter, structure, and style makes a comparison between Closer and Your Friends and Neighbors all but inescapable, and it's not a comparison that favours the former.

Its seems like you feel like your knowledge and experience are relative to your interaction with certain pieces of art?

[baby doll]

The important thing is that it was to me.*

Not only probable, but I've seen it, beat for beat.I never doubted that you have. It's possible I'm underrating this specific movie (which, again, I haven't seen since its initial release), but as to the broader point, the fact that you've seen similar behaviour in real life doesn't convince me that the film's treatment of said behaviour is believable as fiction--that is, probable within the context of the film's narrative. To return to the apples-and-oranges comparison of Nichols' film with Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, it's impossible (currently) to have unpleasant memories erased through targeted brain damage, but in the context of the film's narrative, it's believable that these characters would opt for such a procedure if it were available to them. Conversely, if my hazy memory of the film is at all reliable, the characters and relationships in Closer all seemed more theoretical than real, even though the characters never do anything impossible.


Because sometimes (not necessarily this time for this deviation of conversation) a story can be told better, or updated for newer thought, or improved upon. Progress.If Closer was intended as an attempt to improve upon Your Friends and Neighbors, then I would argue it failed for the reason stated earlier: the characters' behaviour is less extreme than that of Labute's characters but it's less believable as fiction (or at least I thought so at the time).


Its seems like you feel like your knowledge and experience are relative to your interaction with certain pieces of art?I don't understand the question.

[Skitch]

If Closer was intended as an attempt to improve upon Your Friends and Neighbors...

You are the only one putting that standard on Closer.


I don't understand the question.

Rephrase: I feel like you put your experience into play sometimes, and other times ignore the possibility of others experience. Not maybe intentionally, I'm not trying to be a dick, just maybe your experience (relationship or otherwise) isn't the same as other have experienced? So maybe a movie portrayal you can't relate to does accurately portray a real life thing? Whether you buy it or not?

[quido8_5]

To return to the apples-and-oranges comparison of Nichols' film with Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, it's impossible (currently) to have unpleasant memories erased through targeted brain damage [...]

Actually it is possible through optogenetics and has been for nearly a decade (https://www.ted.com/talks/steve_ramirez_and_xu_liu_a_mou se_a_laser_beam_a_manipulated_ memory?language=en). It's not used with humans for ethical reasons, at least for now: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11569-020-00377-1. Not super-pertinent to the conversation here, but adds to the relevance of Eternal Sunshine. I never really considered it science fiction, as the technology was theorized about when Kaufman wrote the script. One of the many reasons why I love the film is that it takes something imminently possible and takes it to a natural conclusion.

[Yxklyx]

Oh God. That movie is beyond fucked up.

In Audition, when she goes "kili, kili, kili" while she's doing some cutting - well in my Spanish speaking familiy, "kili, kili, kili" is what we say when we're tickling someone.

[megladon8]

I always thought she was saying "kitty kitty kitty."

[baby doll]

You are the only one putting that standard on Closer.

Rephrase: I feel like you put your experience into play sometimes, and other times ignore the possibility of others experience. Not maybe intentionally, I'm not trying to be a dick, just maybe your experience (relationship or otherwise) isn't the same as other have experienced? So maybe a movie portrayal you can't relate to does accurately portray a real life thing? Whether you buy it or not?With regards to believability, my personal life experiences are irrelevant. After all, there are plenty of films based on true stories that are unconvincing as fictional narratives (Spielberg's Munich, for instance). The issue isn't one of accuracy but one of artistry: a film can portray commonplace events in a manner that is unconvincing or it can depict fantastical events with great persuasiveness. It all depends on the skill of the filmmakers.

[DFA1979]

In Audition, when she goes "kili, kili, kili" while she's doing some cutting - well in my Spanish speaking familiy, "kili, kili, kili" is what we say when we're tickling someone.

Heh that's funny and then I'm reminded that she does her own brand of tickling oh God.

[StuSmallz]

With regard to The Lord of the Rings, it seems to me that the first question is: how genuinely progressive is its depiction of a world ostensibly less sexist than our own? I would argue not very, since the films' female characters gain assertiveness on the battlefield at the expense of sexual expression. In other words, the efforts of Jackson and his co-writers to imagine a non-sexist fantasy world are constrained by the sexist attitudes of the world in which the films were actually produced and consumed. It's evident that mainstream audiences in the early 2000s readily accepted the assertiveness of the films' female characters on the battlefield to the point that it aroused virtually no comment, but I doubt the same audiences would have as readily accepted them having Dionysian bisexual orgies. (Needless to say, there can be no female liberation without sexual liberation.)

The second question is: how interesting is the film's depiction of a non-sexist fantasy world, limited though it may be in its omission of female sexuality? Again, I would argue not very since the films' unambiguously affirmative stance towards female empowerment (as distinct from emancipation or liberation) leaves nothing for the spectator to do but nod in agreement: Yes, this is how things ought be but aren't yet. The films' attitude is essentially pious and nothing is more boring in art than piety, since it doesn't allow for contradiction, messiness, tension, ambivalence, or complexity.

This is, not incidentally, why so much liberal film criticism is not only insufferable but overly simplistic. In characterizing films in binary, either/or terms (progressive/regressive, enlightened/unenlightened, feminist/misogynist), such criticism fails to grapple with the complexity of pop culture as a site of ideological contradiction. To take the example of a classical film in which the heroine dies at the end, Josef von Sternberg's Dishonored has both progressive and conservative elements and much of the film's fascination results from the productive tension between them. Inevitably the prostitute heroine dies (by firing squad, no less), yet the film in no way endorses this, instead regarding her as a sort of martyr and contrasting her genuine (if sexually transgressive) patriotism with the hypocrisy of the male military officers. (Jonathan Rosenbaum has characterized the film as "an antiwar statement that a prostitute can do more for her countryman than a female spy.") Yet the film's attitude towards its heroine is far from straightforward, as evidenced by the famous close-up of her instinctively fixing her lipstick just before she's shot. On the one hand, the heroine/Marlene Dietrich is to be admired for her beauty, while on the other, her exaggerated, slightly campy makeup denotes the lack of an authentic essence. Basic Instinct evidences a similar split attitude towards its heroine, combining fascination and condemnation, although as I've pointed out elsewhere on this forum, she's never punished for her transgressions and the seeming phallic victory of the Michael Douglas character is highly provisional and could be reversed at any moment: if he's still alive at the end of the movie, it's only because Stone wants him alive for now. The contradictions of Sternberg and Verhoeven's films make them a lot more exciting to watch (and re-watch) than the bland liberal pieties of Portrait d'une jeune fille en feu or The Lord of the Rings, neither of which I have the slightest desire to see again.Trying to measure the progressiveness of the trilogy by merely zeroing in on its fantasy setting makes little sense though, because whether the films are set on Middle Earth or not, they're still created and released 100% on our Earth, by people who (male or female) are all products of a historically sexist society, so the actual relevant question is, how progressive is the trilogy's depiction of women when compared to other movies produced by the same overall culture up to that point? I would argue very, because, while "women of action" weren't unheard of in movies around the turn of the millennium, the prevailing trend of that time was still to sexually objectify them at the same time, giving off the illusion of empowering these women while still exploiting them for the viewing pleasure of the heterosexual men those movies were targeted at, having their (cheese)cake and eating it too, whether you're talking about Charlie's Angels, The Fast & The Furious, or Tomb Raider​...


https://youtu.be/pBNKarJukms

...so LOTR's depiction of women still holds up much better, not just when compared to those examples, but also just on their own merits at the same time. Besides that, how do the women of the trilogy gain assertiveness at the expense of sexual expression? They weren't particularly sexual in the books in the first place (although this wasn't some double standard on Tolkien's part, since the male characters weren't different in that regard), nor should they have been changed to be so for the movies, and doing so would probably have been a bad idea, since it would in all likelihood have clashed with the fundamental tone of that world, like the unnecessary jump scare in Fellowship when Bilbo grabbed for the Ring off of Frodo (which was one of the few missteps Jackson made with the trilogy, IMO).

[Idioteque Stalker]

Voting is closed. Here are MC's results:

Champion

Spirited Away
Directed by Hayao Miyazaki
2001

https://i.postimg.cc/TYP1ssGN/Spirited-Away-2.jpg

It won the Academy Award for Best Animated Feature at the 75th Academy Awards, making it the first and only hand-drawn and non-English-language animated film to win the award. In 2016, it was voted the 4th-best film of the 21st century by the BBC. In 2017, it was also named the second "Best Film...of the 21st Century So Far" by The New York Times.

The biggest difficulty in making the film was to reduce its length. When production started, Miyazaki realized it would be more than three hours long if he made it according to his plot. He had to delete many scenes from the story, and tried to reduce the "eye candy" in the film because he wanted it to be simple.

I created a heroine who is an ordinary girl, someone with whom the audience can sympathize. It's not a story in which the characters grow up, but a story in which they draw on something already inside them, brought out by the particular circumstances. I want my young friends to live like that, and I think they, too, have such a wish. -- Hayao Miyazaki


https://i.postimg.cc/1t51zLvL/Spirited-Away-3.jpg

Artful but not arty, Spirited Away is a handcrafted cartoon, as personal as an Utamaro painting, yet its breadth and heart give it an appeal that should touch American viewers of all ages. -- Richard Corliss

It will disturb you as much as thrill you, make you wonder whether the boundaries between life and death, reality and fantasy, imagination and insanity are ever what they appear to be. -- Andrew O'Hehir

Director Hayao Miyazaki treats his audience as imaginative and intelligent human beings, rather than catering to kids with rote displays of silliness, stunts and scares. -- Claudia Puig


https://i.postimg.cc/xCRjxvZS/Spirited-Away-1.jpg


Runner-Up

Memento
Directed by Christopher Nolan
2000

https://i.postimg.cc/QCFk3dgt/Memento-7.jpg

In 2005, the Writers Guild of America ranked the screenplay #100 on its list of 101 Greatest Screenplays ever written. In 2012, the Motion Picture Editors Guild listed the film as the fourteenth best-edited film of all time based on a survey of its membership. Memento was considered "culturally, historically or aesthetically significant" by the US Library of Congress and was selected for preservation in the National Film Registry in 2017, the first narrative feature of the 2000s to be honored.

Many medical experts have cited Memento as featuring one of the most realistic and accurate depictions of anterograde amnesia. Caltech neuroscientist Christof Koch called Memento "the most accurate portrayal of the different memory systems in the popular media", while physician Esther M. Sternberg, Director of the Integrative Neural Immune Program at the National Institute of Mental Health, identified the film as "close to a perfect exploration of the neurobiology of memory.

For a shot of a shell casing flying upwards, the shell had to be dropped in front of the camera in forward motion, but it constantly rolled out of frame. Nolan was forced to blow the casing out of frame instead, but in the confusion, the crew shot it backwards. They then had to make an optical (a copy of the shot) and reverse the shot to make it go forward again. "That was the height of complexity in terms of the film", Nolan said. "An optical to make a backwards running shot forwards, and the forwards shot is a simulation of a backwards shot."

Initially, Nolan wanted to use Radiohead's "Paranoid Android" during the end credits, but he was unable to secure the rights.


https://i.postimg.cc/VvYDQgSf/Memento-4.jpg

The video stores are filled with examples of retro-noir and neo-noir, but Christopher Nolan's audacious timebender is something else. Call it meta-noir. -- J. Hoberman

Deconstructs time and space with Einstein-caliber dexterity in the service of a delectably disturbing tale of revenge. -- Lisa Nesselson

Endlessly inventive and consistently enthralling, Memento builds slowly but inexorably to a climactic mindfuck of a revelation that speaks as cogently about the human capacity for self-deception as any angst-filled Bergman chamber drama. -- Mike D'Angelo


https://i.postimg.cc/wjMQVF7D/Memento-1.jpg


Third Place

Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind
Directed by Michel Gondry
2004

https://i.postimg.cc/NFggZK1h/Eternal-Sunshine-1.jpg


The madness is over... or is it?

[baby doll]

Trying to measure the progressiveness of the trilogy by merely zeroing in on its fantasy setting makes little sense though, because whether the films are set on Middle Earth or not, they're still created and released 100% on our Earth, by people who (male or female) are all products of a historically sexist society, so the actual relevant question is, how progressive is the trilogy's depiction of women when compared to other movies produced by the same overall culture up to that point? I would argue very, because, while "women of action" weren't unheard of in movies around the turn of the millennium, the prevailing trend of that time was still to sexually objectify them at the same time, giving off the illusion of empowering these women while still exploiting them for the viewing pleasure of the heterosexual men those movies were targeted at, having their (cheese)cake and eating it too, whether you're talking about Charlie's Angels, The Fast & The Furious, or Tomb Raider​...

...so LOTR's depiction of women still holds up much better, not just when compared to those examples, but also just on their own merits at the same time. Besides that, how do the women of the trilogy gain assertiveness at the expense of sexual expression? They weren't particularly sexual in the books in the first place (although this wasn't some double standard on Tolkien's part, since the male characters weren't different in that regard), nor should they have been changed to be so for the movies, and doing so would probably have been a bad idea, since it would in all likelihood have clashed with the fundamental tone of that world, like the unnecessary jump scare in Fellowship when Bilbo grabbed for the Ring off of Frodo (which was one of the few missteps Jackson made with the trilogy, IMO).I haven't seen Charlie's Angels, The Fast and the Furious, or Tomb Raider (although I have seen 2 Fast 2 Furious, which I liked, and I played the first two Tomb Raider video games on Sony Playstation back in the day), so I can't comment on them, but claiming that The Lord of the Rings is more progressive in terms of gender politics than other Hollywood blockbusters of the same period seems to me a very weak argument--especially since, if nothing else, Angelina Jolie is still the star of Tomb Raider, and Drew Barrymore, Cameron Diaz, and Lucy Liu are the stars of Charlie's Angels, whereas the women in The Lord of the Rings are all relegated to secondary roles. But more to the point, progressiveness is no guarantee of interestingness. One can approve of a film's politics and still find it deathly boring.

But even if I were to concede for the sake of argument that The Lord of the Rings is relatively progressive in its treatment of women, and that Tomb Raider and the other films you mention sexually objectify their female stars (although I've seen Jolie a lot more naked than that in other films), well, so what? In what demonstrable way has The Lord of the Rings made the world a better place for women or has Tomb Raider (or Basic Instinct) made it worse? Ultimately, films aren't the weather but the thermometer: they can reveal the ideological contradictions of the societies that produce them but they don't change anything, for better or for worse. So if Jolie wants to show off some side-boob (or more), and men--and, I suspect, a good many women, straight and gay--want to see it, what's the harm? It may not be empowering but it's hardly a crime.

As for the women of Jackson's trilogy gaining assertiveness on the battlefield at the expense of sexual expression, my point is that, insofar as the film's positive attitude toward their assertiveness represents a gain from a political standpoint, it entails a loss in other areas. To the extent that the women in The Lord of the Rings are portrayed as sexual beings, the expression of their sexuality is restricted to the confines of heterosexual monogamy (and is thus socially acceptable), whereas a femme fatale like the Sharon Stone character in Basic Instinct need not be either monogamous or strictly heterosexual. In other words, Verhoeven's film is essentially about the threat a liberated woman poses to the existing patriarchal order, while Jackson's trilogy never pushes the issue of female liberation--or any other issue--to a point of crisis. The problem with The Lord of the Rings films is that they're too respectable to be really fun.

[Skitch]

I am very cool with the champ. I love the runner up, but I probably wouldn't have raised it that far.

[Idioteque Stalker]

I am very cool with the champ. I love the runner up, but I probably wouldn't have raised it that far.

Ditto. I'll add, of the three, these are the madness results I like most.

00s results > 80s results > 90s results


80s: 1. Do the Right Thing 2. The Shining 3. Aliens
90s: 1. Goodfellas 2. Pulp Fiction 3. Fargo
00s: 1. Spirited Away 2. Memento 3. Eternal Sunshine


Every champion so far is a masterpiece. We're definitely getting that much right so far.

[Skitch]

I'm really proud of MC raising an animated film so high. Good job MC.

[DFA1979]

Ditto. I'll add, of the three, these are the madness results I like most.

00s results > 80s results > 90s results


80s: 1. Do the Right Thing 2. The Shining 3. Aliens
90s: 1. Goodfellas 2. Pulp Fiction 3. Fargo
00s: 1. Spirited Away 2. Memento 3. Eternal Sunshine


Every champion so far is a masterpiece. We're definitely getting that much right so far.

Huh I've seen all of those. Guess I shouldn't be too surprised but I am. Good batch of movies for every decade.

[Yxklyx]

Great work Idioteque Stalker!