Match Cut Director Consensus - Bela Tarr

[Ezee E]

Rules & Results (http://match-cut.org/showthread.php?t=426)

http://www.mastersofcinema.org/pics/BelaTarrAUG_27_2004.jpg

ELIGIBLE FILMS:
Family Nest
The Outsider
Macbeth
The Prefab People
Almanac of Fall
Damnation
Satan's Tango
Werckmeister Harmonies
The Man From London


...Should be an easy week...

[Derek]

Family Nest - 6.0
Almanac of Fall - 7.5
Damnation - 8.0
Werckmeister Harmonies - 10.0
The Man From London - 7.0

[dreamdead]

...Should be an easy week...

I would expect so, yes. ;) Will anyone have seen more than 3 of his?

Werckmeister Harmonies - 10

[Spinal]

Will anyone have seen more than 3 of his?

Brimrolled.

[dreamdead]

Brimrolled.

Indeed. Now you need to make with the renting of Werckmeister Harmonies...

[Spinal]

Indeed. Now you need to make with the renting of Werckmeister Harmonies...

But everyone tells me that I shouldn't watch that DVD because it's poor quality. I want to see the film, but I don't want to be frustrated by the experience.

[Grouchy]

The Man from London - 9

[balmakboor]

Damnation - 9.0
Werckmeister Harmonies - 10.0

[balmakboor]

I seriously wanted to buy Satantango, but then it was really expensive. So, I waited until I had the money to spare and then it was unavailable. Did they make like ten copies or something?

[Derek]

I seriously wanted to buy Satantango, but then it was really expensive. So, I waited until I had the money to spare and then it was unavailable. Did they make like ten copies or something?

Facets will be re-releasing it in June or July from what I've heard. I don't know exactly what happened with the initial release, but I think it went through a more extensive restoration process in the past year (probably due to the complaints about WH) and should hopefully be worth the wait.

[ledfloyd]

Werckmeister Harmonies - 10

[Llopin]

Family Nest - 7
Almanac of Fall - 6.5
Damnation - 10
Satan's Tango - 8
Werckmeister Harmonies - 9.5

Met him once. Groovy guy.

[Watashi]

I'm with Spinal. I really want to see Wreckmeister, but refuse to watch the DVD that's out there right now.

[balmakboor]

Facets will be re-releasing it in June or July from what I've heard. I don't know exactly what happened with the initial release, but I think it went through a more extensive restoration process in the past year (probably due to the complaints about WH) and should hopefully be worth the wait.

That sounds encouraging. It would be a pretty safe blind buy for me. Due to its length, it just sounds like something I'd rather buy than rent. I didn't have any problems with the quality of WH. I think some people are over-discriminating when it comes to DVD quality. I think that DVD Beaver site goes way overboard at times.

[Qrazy]

Satan's Tango - 9.5
Werckmeister Harmonies - 10
Man from London - 8

[Yxklyx]

Damnation - 7
Werckmeister Harmonies - 8

[Duncan]

Werckmeister Harmonies - 10
The Man From London - 9.0

[MacGuffin]

Damnation 5
Werckmeister Harmonies 10

I have a feeling that Werckmeister Harmonies is going to make that Match Cut top movie list in the director consensus page.

[Spinal]

I'm with Spinal. I really want to see Wreckmeister, but refuse to watch the DVD that's out there right now.

If by some chance I don't like it, I just know that people will say it is because of the DVD, so I figure I might as well see it under proper conditions. There was a retrospective in town a few months ago. I wish I had seen a couple of the films then.

[Duncan]

If by some chance I don't like it, I just know that people will say it is because of the DVD, so I figure I might as well see it under proper conditions. There was a retrospective in town a few months ago. I wish I had seen a couple of the films then.

I think there's a very good chance you won't like Tarr's work because, though aesthetically singular, his films have the same sort of pacing and rhythm as Tarkovsky's films. I promise not to blame the DVD.

[Kurious Jorge v3.1]

Damnation - 7.5
Werckmeister Harmonies - 9
The Man From London - 5

[Boner M]

Werckmeister Harmonies - 8.5

[Melville]

Werckmeister Harmonies - 9.5

[Qrazy]

I think there's a very good chance you won't like Tarr's work because, though aesthetically singular, his films have the same sort of pacing and rhythm as Tarkovsky's films. I promise not to blame the DVD.

I promise not to blame the DVD either Spinal. I'll just chalk it up to bad taste. ;)

[Kurious Jorge v3.1]

here is a review of the Facets DVD I found while doing a quick search:

"The disc's image suggests the print was beaten to a pulp by the film's angry mob. Detail is practically nonexistent and the pixel-ridden blacks almost make it impossible to make out anything that transpires on screen—Lars Rudolph's fleeing near the end of the film is especially embarrassing. Save for the dubbed dialogue, audio is hollow-sounding, as if it had been recorded inside a tin can."

so yeah, stay away...

[Boner M]

Maybe we should treat the Facets version as a separate film for this consensus (That's how I saw WH).

[Winston*]

I'll watch one of his films when one gets released on Region 4.

[Duncan]

I watched the Facets DVD, and I still consider it one of the best films I've ever seen.

[Boner M]

I watched the Facets DVD, and I still consider it one of the best films I've ever seen.
I felt like I was watching one of the best films I've ever seen through the reflection of a rear view mirror.

[Ezee E]

I felt like I was watching one of the best films I've ever seen through the reflection of a rear view mirror.
That's Winston* esque!

[Melville]

I felt like I was watching one of the best films I've ever seen through the reflection of a rear view mirror.
Something so brilliantly surreal could only improve a movie.

I thought the image on the Facets DVD looked just fine, although my TV is small enough that the image has to be pretty bad for me to notice. I've voiced my complaints about the sound elsewhere.

[Winston*]

That's Winston* esque!
What does this mean?

[Melville]

What does this mean?
Filled with sardonic wit and tangential relevance, I presume.

[Boner M]

What does this mean?
That I made a joke... I guess. Winston makes jokes too!

[Raiders]

Damnation (1987) - 7.5
Satan's Tango (1994) - 9.0
Werckmeister Harmonies (2000) - 10.0
The Man from London (2007) - 6.5

[Spinal]

I think there's a very good chance you won't like Tarr's work because, though aesthetically singular, his films have the same sort of pacing and rhythm as Tarkovsky's films. I promise not to blame the DVD.

Yeah, the Tarkovskian influence that people talk about is definitely a red flag for me.

[Izzy Black]

Almanac of Fall 7
Damnation 8
Satantango 10
Werckmeister Harmonies 8
The Man From London 7

For those who rated Werckmeister Harmonies over Satantango, care to explain why?

[Qrazy]

Almanac of Fall 7
Damnation 8
Satantango 10
Werckmeister Harmonies 8
The Man From London 7

For those who rated Werckmeister Harmonies over Satantango, care to explain why?

The latter film felt tighter and less indulgent. Satantango is amazing but Werckmeister felt more balanced to me.

[Izzy Black]

The latter film felt tighter and less indulgent. Satantango is amazing but Werckmeister felt more balanced to me.

I question the merit of comparing a 7 hour film to a 2 hour film on the basis of tighter direction. I can see your reasoning, but I often wonder if Tarr is even interested in crafting a balanced and even film within any conventional norm. Werckmeister is great for its brilliant compositions, but I do not usually factor its shorter run time and 'tighter' direction into its quality. In some ways, I think it is a hindrance to his aesthetic.

[Raiders]

I have only seen Satantango once, and it was undoubtedly a brilliant film. But at seven hours, I was overwhelmed and when held up to Werckmeister Harmonies, I find that the latter offered a more immediate reward and upon re-watches has grown to be among my handful of very favorite films. Satantango certainly has the potential for this, but due to its length, it will require at least another viewing.

[Qrazy]

I question the merit of comparing a 7 hour film to a 2 hour film on the basis of tighter direction. I can see your reasoning, but I often wonder if Tarr is even interested in crafting a balanced and even film within any conventional norm. Werckmeister is great for its brilliant compositions, but I do not usually factor its shorter run time and 'tighter' direction into its quality. In some ways, I think it is a hindrance to his aesthetic.

Yeah maybe but the disparities in run time aren't really what I"m talking about. I felt that there was more purposiveness to every moment in Werckmeister than compared to Satantango, which felt very purposeful as well but just not quite on the same level as Werckmeister. Certain thematic conceits are often repeated in Satantango where as Werckmeister capitalizes more efficiently on it's premise, nothing feels out of place or indulgent.

[Mysterious Dude]

Werckmeister Harmonies - 3.0

[Melville]

Werckmeister Harmonies - 3.0
Ouch.

[Grouchy]

I have only seen Satantango once, and it was undoubtedly a brilliant film. But at seven hours, I was overwhelmed and when held up to Werckmeister Harmonies, I find that the latter offered a more immediate reward and upon re-watches has grown to be among my handful of very favorite films. Satantango certainly has the potential for this, but due to its length, it will require at least another viewing.
I could never watch a seven hour movie twice. I wonder if I'll ever watch it once.

I mean, I love exposing myself to anything new to learn more about movies, and I love some very long ones (Once Upon a Time in America) but I doubt I have the power to keep myself interested for seven hours in the same film.

[Raiders]

Werckmeister Harmonies - 3.0

Every party needs a pooper...

[Qrazy]

I could never watch a seven hour movie twice. I wonder if I'll ever watch it once.

I mean, I love exposing myself to anything new to learn more about movies, and I love some very long ones (Once Upon a Time in America) but I doubt I have the power to keep myself interested for seven hours in the same film.

It's broken into chapters... I think it can be watched piecemeal like one would watch The Decalogue or Fanny and Alexander without losing too much of the emotional momentum. But yeah watching anything 7-10 hours long in a sitting would be a bit much.

[Izzy Black]

Yeah maybe but the disparities in run time aren't really what I"m talking about. I felt that there was more purposiveness to every moment in Werckmeister than compared to Satantango, which felt very purposeful as well but just not quite on the same level as Werckmeister. Certain thematic conceits are often repeated in Satantango where as Werckmeister capitalizes more efficiently on it's premise, nothing feels out of place or indulgent.

Really? What did you make of the boys jumping and screaming on the bed that seemed to overextend its gathered purpose? - Or the scene with the old man and the protagonist walking shoulder to shoulder for several minutes in almost seemed to be a scene on repeat? I think the only difference is the number of these scenes are less because it is a shorter movie. He still uses the full reel of his 35mm film stock for most takes. I think Tarr only cuts because he is forced too. He did describe the 8 minute (I think its 8) limit for 35mm film as kind of censorship after all. At best, we could say Werckmeister is a more accessible film because of these limitations, and thus, seemingly more compact or coherent, but I am not so sure what Werckmeister does that is actually superior to Satantango, and I am also not sure what about Werckmeister is as challenging, groundbreaking, and meaningful as Satantango's technical aesthetic and themes.

[Izzy Black]

I have only seen Satantango once, and it was undoubtedly a brilliant film. But at seven hours, I was overwhelmed and when held up to Werckmeister Harmonies, I find that the latter offered a more immediate reward and upon re-watches has grown to be among my handful of very favorite films. Satantango certainly has the potential for this, but due to its length, it will require at least another viewing.

One wonders if Tarr's cinema is even about immediate rewards, however. In fact, artistically, Satantango might be his greatest triumph for this very reason.

[Qrazy]

Really? What did you make of the boys jumping and screaming on the bed that seemed to overextend its gathered purpose? - Or the scene with the old man and the protagonist walking shoulder to shoulder for several minutes in almost seemed to be a scene on repeat? I think the only difference is the number of these scenes are less because it is a shorter movie. He still uses the full reel of his 35mm film stock for most takes. I think Tarr only cuts because he is forced too. He did describe the 8 minute (I think its 8) limit for 35mm film as kind of censorship after all. At best, we could say Werckmeister is a more accessible film because of these limitations, and thus, seemingly more compact or coherent, but I am not so sure what Werckmeister does that is actually superior to Satantango, and I am also not sure what about Werckmeister is as challenging, groundbreaking, and meaningful as Satantango's technical aesthetic and themes.

Yeah but as we both know the overextension serves it's own purpose in all of those cases and in Satantango as well, but again scene length and shot length is not what I'm referring to. I felt that the scenes themselves, both the choice of scenes and their contrast with one another was ultimately more focused and purposive in W than in S. W retreads the same ground from scene to scene more so than S.

Anyway I'm not interested in clarifying/arguing about it anymore since I think they're both great films and I have no major qualms with S, I just wanted to provide an answer to your question (as to why many of us rated W over S).

[Izzy Black]

Yeah but as we both know the overextension serves it's own purpose in all of those cases and in Satantango as well, but again scene length and shot length is not what I'm referring to. I felt that the scenes themselves, both the choice of scenes and their contrast with one another was ultimately more focused and purposive in W than in S. W retreads the same ground from scene to scene more so than S.

Anyway I'm not interested in clarifying/arguing about it anymore since I think they're both great films and I have no major qualms with S, I just wanted to provide an answer to your question (as to why many of us rated W over S).

Ah, alright. Discussion effectively foreclosed.

[Qrazy]

Ah, alright. Discussion effectively foreclosed.

Well I didn't mean to shut things down or anything either... just want to segue into a different spectrum like... favorite moments in satantango or something...

Some favorite scenes of mine:

Walking down the windy road
Shot of the spiderweb in the bar
Bell ringing scene with the doctor

[Bosco B Thug]

Every party needs a pooper...
Phew, I'm kind of glad there was finally a dissenter. I was beginning to get scared of eventually watching the thing, it's gotten so many 10s.

[ledfloyd]

Werckmeister Harmonies - 3.0
I don't believe you! [/dylan]

[soitgoes...]

Werckmeister Harmonies - 6.5

:runs:

[origami_mustache]

Damnation - 8.5
Werckmeister Harmonies - 9.5

I might get to Satantango before this ends

[Ezee E]

Yeah, I was waiting for Antoine. I saw his score on Netflix.

[Melville]

Yeah, I was waiting for Antoine. I saw his score on Netflix.
I knew he disliked it, but a 3 seems impossibly low, especially for someone who likes photography.

[Yxklyx]

Well, I've seen beautifully photographed films that I couldn't stand.

[Mysterious Dude]

Here's the main reason I can't stand Werckmeiser.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euXraV8kiO4

Three minutes of a truck driving slowly down a road. Three minutes. What am I supposed to have learned in that three minutes? That the truck is really slow? What was I supposed to learn that I couldn't have learned in, say, two minutes? Or one minute?

[Raiders]

Here's the main reason I can't stand Werckmeiser.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euXraV8kiO4

Three minutes of a truck driving slowly down a road. Three minutes. What am I supposed to have learned in that three minutes? That the truck is really slow? What was I supposed to learn that I couldn't have learned in, say, two minutes? Or one minute?

Well, that's the film's rhythm. I'm sure also you don't need to see the main character walk into darkness for three minutes or see children screaming for five minutes. It is a deliberate film. I think the whole point of the film is that it represents a very creeping destruction. The Prince is a character who works underhanded, inciting revolution from within. The film posits the darkness as a creeping, unseen force, and that shot you link is among the best in the film.

[Qrazy]

Here's the main reason I can't stand Werckmeiser.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euXraV8kiO4

Three minutes of a truck driving slowly down a road. Three minutes. What am I supposed to have learned in that three minutes? That the truck is really slow? What was I supposed to learn that I couldn't have learned in, say, two minutes? Or one minute?

Well what Tarr would have you do (I assume) is stave off narrative/temporal desires in favor of just basking in the tone and imagery itself. One of the major premises of the film is the restructuring and elongation of time.

[Melville]

Here's the main reason I can't stand Werckmeiser.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euXraV8kiO4

Three minutes of a truck driving slowly down a road. Three minutes. What am I supposed to have learned in that three minutes? That the truck is really slow? What was I supposed to learn that I couldn't have learned in, say, two minutes? Or one minute?
I agree with Raiders that that's one of the best shots in the film, and that it beautifully adds to the sense of foreboding before the arrival of the Prince and the Whale. I have a brief description of its effectiveness in my top 100 review:
http://match-cut.org/showpost.php?p=49580&postcount=222

However, while I really like the film's rhythm, I can easily see why people would find it excruciating. But I would have thought that you could find enough to appreciate in the film to raise it above a 3.

[Ezee E]

Hmm... I'm getting this in on Wednesday. We shall see.

[Watashi]

After seeing the scene Antoine posted, I can easily understand his low score.

Yeah, I'm not seeing this.

[Raiders]

After seeing the scene Antoine posted, I can easily understand his low score.

Yeah, I'm not seeing this.

But each scene is long enough you could watch only one at a time and break it into like, 10 or 15 segments.

[Watashi]

Where is that horse picture?

[Duncan]

After seeing the scene Antoine posted, I can easily understand his low score.

Yeah, I'm not seeing this.

That's a poor decision. This (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=60780815011196 24726&q=werckmeister+harmonies&ei=SjIOSKK4MoeIrgKF2vy3BA)is the opening scene. Does it make you change your mind?

[Qrazy]

That's a poor decision. This (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=60780815011196 24726&q=werckmeister+harmonies&ei=SjIOSKK4MoeIrgKF2vy3BA)is the opening scene. Does it make you change your mind?

Based on what I know of Wats taste I don't think he'll like it. I don't see it as a poor decision if his interest in seeing any given film rests primarily on his enjoyment.

[Ezee E]

Based on what I know of Wats taste I don't think he'll like it. I don't see it as a poor decision if his interest in seeing any given film rests primarily on his enjoyment.
Yeah, cause The Passion of Joan of Arc and Dancer in the Dark are a jolly good time.

[Qrazy]

Yeah, cause The Passion of Joan of Arc and Dancer in the Dark are a jolly good time.

Why, does Wats particularly like those films? But either way that's kind of missing the point. Number one because your examples are both tonally 'depressing' films and while Werckmeister may also be I suppose, I'm referring to his enjoyment of the overall experience, not if he'll come away in a happy mood.

As a result of the slow pacing and thematic focus of the film I don't think it'll connect with him and I see no reason to recommend something I don't think he will take any enjoyment in (not make him happy, but enjoy) or connect with it. Furthermore I'm not even saying the only reason to watch a film or read a book, etc is to do so for enjoyment and what one enjoys now might be entirely different from what someone enjoys later in life and that's a good thing. Obviously (based on my ratings) I feel Werckmeister is a brilliant film and ideally I hope someday he'll watch and like it but if he watches it now I see no reason to believe that he will, better to put it on the back burner.

Based on what I know of his taste, Werckmeister is not a type of film he will enjoy and furthermore as far as I can tell, he predominantly watches film for that enjoyment... perhaps both of these conclusions are too assumptive of me and I am being unfair to him but in that worst case scenario he'll get offended and ipso facto reverse psychology watch the film (muaha) and if not and I'm right than all is well and he can spend his time catching up on Sylvain Chomet's debut (on youtube) or something else he's more likely to enjoy.

Oh and as to your examples, personally I think the former is a masterpiece and the latter a waste of space.

[Duncan]

::shrug:: I think he could like it. There are moments powerful enough to overcome aesthetic differences of opinion.

[Qrazy]

::shrug:: I think he could like it. There are moments powerful enough to overcome aesthetic differences of opinion.

One would hope, but I remain pessimistic. :)

[Ezee E]

Werckmeister Harmonies - 6

Meh. More to come later.

[BirdsAteMyFace]

After seeing the scene Antoine posted, I can easily understand his low score.

Yeah, I'm not seeing this.Huh. Isn't one of the purposes of art to broaden, or perhaps build upon, one's ever-changing tastes? Seems like a dull standpoint to limit yourself to films you think you'll enjoy, as opposed to simply experiencing something different -but I guess that's rather pointless if you can't even go into the experience without preconceived notions.

[Boner M]

Besides, didn't Wats really like Last Days? It sure wasn't because of Michael Pitt.

[Watashi]

*sigh*

I should have added a simile.

[Derek]

*sigh*

I should have added a simile.

Similes are always good for clearing things up. I wish MatchCutters would use them more often.

[Qrazy]

Werckmeister Harmonies - 6

Meh. More to come later.

Nah we don't need anything more. ;)

[Ezee E]

Nah we don't need anything more. ;)
Phew. Don't need to waste my time.

[Qrazy]

Phew. Don't need to waste my time.

Excellent. *Mr. Burns fingers*

[Ezee E]

RESULTS:

1. Satan's Tango - 9.2 (5)
2. Werckmeister Harmonies - 8.75 (18)
3. Damnation - 7.69 (8)
4. The Man From London - 7.56 (8)

DID NOT QUALIFY:
-Almanac of Fall - 7.0 (3)
-Family Nest - 6.5 (2)

[Duncan]

RESULTS:

1. Satan's Tango - 9.13 (4)
2. Werckmeister Harmonies - 8.75 (18)
3. Damnation - 7.69 (8)
4. The Man From London - 7.56 (8)

DID NOT QUALIFY:
-Almanac of Fall - 7.0 (3)
-Family Nest - 6.5 (2)

Could you give us the overall average, E?

[Ezee E]

RESULTS:

1. Satan's Tango - 9.13 (4)
2. Werckmeister Harmonies - 8.75 (18)
3. Damnation - 7.69 (8)
4. The Man From London - 7.56 (8)

DID NOT QUALIFY:
-Almanac of Fall - 7.0 (3)
-Family Nest - 6.5 (2)

BELA TARR'S AVERAGE:
8.32

[Duncan]

BELA TARR'S AVERAGE:
8.32

Cool, thanks a lot.