The Filmspotting Madness Thread, In Which We All Become Abhorrent Monsters

[Idioteque Stalker]

The Filmspotting Podcast has begun their annual March Madness-style movie bracket. This year's theme: the best movies of the 80s.

The rules: Vote for one of two movies. If you haven't seen both movies, don't vote. If you have seen both movies, you must vote no matter how painful. The movie with the most votes moves to the next round, and the other is burned in a fire and can never be seen again by anyone. Eventually one movie will reign supreme.

This thread is now dedicated to Match-Cut's tournament, which is distinct from Filmspotting's. Please post your votes in this thread or send me a PM. If you would like to also participate in Filmspotting's tournament, visit their website. (https://www.filmspotting.net/madness)

_____________


Play-In Round Results (from Filmspotting -- don't @ MC)

Gremlins vs. The World According to Garp
Crimes and Misdemeanors vs. Hannah and Her Sisters
Evil Dead vs. Evil Dead 2
Full Metal Jacket vs. Platoon vs. Born On the Fourth of July
Henry V vs. Ran
A Fish Called Wanda vs. The Meaning of Life
Bull Durham vs. Field of Dreams vs. The Natural
After Hours vs. The Color of Money vs. The King of Comedy vs. The Last Temptation of Christ
Robocop vs. The Terminator
Stand By Me vs. When Harry Met Sally
Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade vs. Return of the Jedi
Brazil vs. Mad Max 2: The Road Warrior
Gates of Heaven vs. The Thin Blue Line vs. Vernon, Florida
Fast Times at Ridgemont High vs. Say Anything
The Fly vs. Videodrome
Batman vs. Beetlejuice vs. Pee-wee's Big Adventure
Beverly Hills Cop vs. Lethal Weapon vs. Midnight Run
Risky Business vs. Top Gun
The Big Chill vs. Diner
Manhunter vs. Thief
Matewan vs. Sex, Lies, and Videotape vs. She's Gotta Have It vs. Stranger Than Paradise
The Little Mermaid vs. Who Framed Roger Rabbit
Blowout vs. Scarface vs. The Untouchables
Heathers vs. Lost In America
The Blues Brothers vs. Plains, Trains, and Automobiles
L'Argent vs. The Sacrifice
Moonstruck vs. Terms of Endearment
Dirty Dancing vs. Footloose
The Breakfast Club vs. Ferris Bueller's Day Off
A Nightmare On Elm Street vs. Poltergeist

Round One Results (these, and all results from now on, are MC's)

Raging Bull vs. Ordinary People
Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade vs. Field of Dreams
Blue Velvet vs. A Nightmare On Elm Street
The Thing vs. Plains, Trains, and Automobiles
E.T. vs. Moonstruck (NAIL-BITER)
This Is Spinal Tap vs. The Elephant Man (BLOWOUT)
Amadeus vs. Top Gun (BLOWOUT)
When Harry Met Sally vs. Brazil
The Shining vs. Gremlins (BLOWOUT)
Fanny and Alexander vs. A Fish Called Wanda (NAIL-BITER)
Ferris Bueller's Day Off vs. The Big Chill
The Terminator vs. Heathers (NAIL-BITER)
Blade Runner vs. The Killer
Stop Making Sense vs. Evil Dead 2
Die Hard vs. Who Framed Roger Rabbit
Raising Arizona vs. Vagabond (UPSET)
Raiders of the Lost Ark vs. Airplane!
Crimes and Misdemeanors vs. Cinema Paradiso
Full Metal Jacket vs. Dirty Dancing
Aliens vs. Manhunter
Back to the Future vs. Drugstore Cowboy
Ran vs. Fast Times at Ridgemont High
The Princess Bride vs. The Untouchables
Grave of the Fireflies vs. Beetlejuice
Do the Right Thing vs. Wall Street (BLOWOUT)
The Right Stuff vs. The Thin Blue Line
Ghostbusters vs. The Fly (UPSET+BLOWOUT)
Dead Poets Society vs. Midnight Run
The Empire Strikes Back vs. The Sacrifice
Broadcast News vs. The King of Comedy
My Neighbor Totoro vs. Sex, Lies, and Videotape (BLOWOUT)
Paris, Texas vs. Blood Simple (UPSET)

Round Two Results

Raging Bull vs. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade
Blue Velvet vs. The Thing (UPSET)
E.T. vs. This Is Spinal Tap
Amadeus vs. When Harry Met Sally
The Shining vs. A Fish Called Wanda
Ferris Bueller’s Day Off vs. The Terminator (NAIL-BITER)
Blade Runner vs. Stop Making Sense (UPSET)
Die Hard vs. Vagabond (UPSET)
Raiders of the Lost Ark vs. Cinema Paradiso
Full Metal Jacket vs. Aliens (NAIL-BITER)
Back to the Future vs. Ran (UPSET)
The Princess Bride vs. Beetlejuice (BLOWOUT)
Do the Right Thing vs. The Right Stuff
The Fly vs. Dead Poets Society (UNANIMOUS BLOWOUT)
The Empire Strikes Back vs. The King of Comedy (BLOWOUT)
My Neighbor Totoro vs. Paris, Texas

Sweet Sixteen Results

Raging Bull vs. Blue Velvet (UPSET)
This Is Spinal Tap vs. Amadeus (UPSET)
The Shining vs. The Terminator (BLOWOUT)
Stop Making Sense vs. Vagabond (TIE, Filmspotting determines tie-breaker)
Raiders of the Lost Ark vs. Aliens (NAIL-BITER + UPSET)
Ran vs. The Princess Bride
Do the Right Thing vs. The Fly (BLOWOUT)
The Empire Strikes Back vs. My Neighbor Totoro (NAIL-BITER)

Elite Eight Results

Blue Velvet vs. Amadeus
The Shining vs. Stop Making Sense
Aliens vs. The Princess Bride (BLOWOUT)
Do the Right Thing vs. The Empire Strikes Back (BLOWOUT)

Final Four Results

Amadeus vs. The Shining
Aliens vs. Do the Right Thing (BLOWOUT)

Championship Results

Champion: Do the Right Thing
Runner-up: The Shining
Third Place: Aliens

[Idioteque Stalker]

* = haven't seen

Raging Bull vs. Ordinary People
Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade vs. Field of Dreams*
Blue Velvet vs. A Nightmare On Elm Street
The Thing vs. Plains, Trains, and Automobiles
E.T. vs. Moonstruck
This Is Spinal Tap vs. The Elephant Man (lol)
Amadeus vs. Top Gun (easiest)
When Harry Met Sally vs. Brazil
The Shining vs. Gremlins (hardest)
Fanny and Alexander vs. A Fish Called Wanda
Ferris Bueller's Day Off vs. The Big Chill
The Terminator vs. Heathers
Blade Runner vs. The Killer*
Stop Making Sense vs. Evil Dead 2 (okay, THIS was the actual hardest)
Die Hard vs. Who Framed Roger Rabbit
Raising Arizona vs. Vagabond*
Raiders of the Lost Ark vs. Airplane!
Crimes and Misdemeanors vs. Cinema Paradiso
Full Metal Jacket vs. Dirty Dancing*
Aliens vs. Manhunter*
Back to the Future vs. Drugstore Cowboy*
Ran vs. Fast Times at Ridgemont High*
The Princess Bride vs. The Untouchables
Grave of the Fireflies vs. Beetlejuice
Do the Right Thing vs. Wall Street (okay, THIS was the actual easiest)
The Right Stuff* vs. The Thin Blue Line (need to get to the br duke sent me)
Ghostbusters vs. The Fly
Dead Poets Society* vs. Midnight Run
The Empire Strikes Back vs. The Sacrifice*
Broadcast News vs. The King of Comedy
My Neighbor Totoro vs. Sex, Lies, and Videotape
Paris, Texas vs. Blood Simple

[Yxklyx]

Have not seen these:

Field of Dreams
Top Gun
Dirty Dancing
Manhunter
Wall Street

I guess I should get on that.

[Lazlo]

Raging Bull vs. Ordinary People
Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade vs. Field of Dreams
Blue Velvet vs. A Nightmare On Elm Street
The Thing vs. Plains, Trains, and Automobiles
E.T. vs. Moonstruck
This Is Spinal Tap vs. The Elephant Man
Amadeus vs. Top Gun
When Harry Met Sally vs. Brazil
The Shining vs. Gremlins
Fanny and Alexander vs. A Fish Called Wanda
Ferris Bueller's Day Off vs. The Big Chill (Have not seen The Big Chill)
The Terminator vs. Heathers
Blade Runner vs. The Killer (Have not seen The Killer)
Stop Making Sense vs. Evil Dead 2
Die Hard vs. Who Framed Roger Rabbit
Raising Arizona vs. Vagabond (Have not seen Vagabond)
Raiders of the Lost Ark vs. Airplane!
Crimes and Misdemeanors vs. Cinema Paradiso (Have not seen either)
Full Metal Jacket vs. Dirty Dancing
Aliens vs. Manhunter
Back to the Future vs. Drugstore Cowboy (Have not seen Drugstore Cowboy)
Ran vs. Fast Times at Ridgemont High (Have not seen Ran)
The Princess Bride vs. The Untouchables
Grave of the Fireflies vs. Beetlejuice
Do the Right Thing vs. Wall Street
The Right Stuff vs. The Thin Blue Line
Ghostbusters vs. The Fly
Dead Poets Society vs. Midnight Run
The Empire Strikes Back vs. The Sacrifice
Broadcast News vs. The King of Comedy (Have not seen Broadcast News)
My Neighbor Totoro vs. Sex, Lies, and Videotape (Have not seen Sex, Lies, and Videotape)
Paris, Texas vs. Blood Simple (Have not seen Paris, Texas)

[Idioteque Stalker]

The Princess Bride vs. The Untouchables

You monster.

[Idioteque Stalker]

Have not seen these:

Field of Dreams
Top Gun
Dirty Dancing
Manhunter
Wall Street

I guess I should get on that.

Yeah, I guess, but those to me don't exactly scream cream of the crop. Manhunter is probably cool though.

Regardless, don't let them stop you. You can still vote in the other match-ups.

[Dukefrukem]

I can't believe how many of those I only saw 1 movie.

[Idioteque Stalker]

I can't believe how many of those I only saw 1 movie.

Yeah, the first round is always a little weird in that way. Once The Empire Strikes Back trounces The Sacrifice (etc.) then the voting really opens up.

[Ezee E]

Raging Bull vs. Ordinary People
Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade vs. Field of Dreams
Blue Velvet vs. A Nightmare On Elm Street
The Thing vs. Plains, Trains, and Automobiles
E.T. vs. Moonstruck
This Is Spinal Tap vs. The Elephant Man
Amadeus vs. Top Gun
When Harry Met Sally vs. Brazil
The Shining vs. Gremlins
Fanny and Alexander vs. A Fish Called Wanda
Ferris Bueller's Day Off vs. The Big Chill
The Terminator vs. Heathers
Blade Runner vs. The Killer
Stop Making Sense vs. Evil Dead 2
Die Hard vs. Who Framed Roger Rabbit
Raising Arizona vs. Vagabond
Raiders of the Lost Ark vs. Airplane!
Crimes and Misdemeanors vs. Cinema Paradiso
Full Metal Jacket vs. Dirty Dancing
Aliens vs. Manhunter
Back to the Future vs. Drugstore Cowboy
Ran vs. Fast Times at Ridgemont High
The Princess Bride vs. The Untouchables
Grave of the Fireflies vs. Beetlejuice
Do the Right Thing vs. Wall Street
The Right Stuff vs. The Thin Blue Line
Ghostbusters vs. The Fly
Dead Poets Society vs. Midnight Run
The Empire Strikes Back vs. The Sacrifice
Broadcast News vs. The King of Comedy
My Neighbor Totoro vs. Sex, Lies, and Videotape
Paris, Texas vs. Blood Simple

[baby doll]

Round One (In Progress -- Vote Now! (https://www.filmspotting.net/madness64))
Raging Bull vs. Ordinary People (haven't seen Ordinary People)
Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade vs. Field of Dreams (haven't seen either)
Blue Velvet vs. A Nightmare On Elm Street (haven't seen A Nightmare on Elm Street)
The Thing vs. Plains, Trains, and Automobiles (haven't seen The Thing)
E.T. vs. Moonstruck (tough call)
This Is Spinal Tap vs. The Elephant Man (obviously)
Amadeus vs. Top Gun (is this even a question?)
When Harry Met Sally vs. Brazil (haven't seen When Harry Met Sally)
The Shining vs. Gremlins
Fanny and Alexander vs. A Fish Called Wanda (only seen the theatrical version of Fanny and Alexander)
Ferris Bueller's Day Off vs. The Big Chill (haven't seen The Big Chill)
The Terminator vs. Heathers (obviously)
Blade Runner vs. The Killer (haven't seen The Killer)
Stop Making Sense vs. Evil Dead 2
Die Hard vs. Who Framed Roger Rabbit (haven't seen Roger Rabbit)
Raising Arizona vs. Vegabond (duh)
Raiders of the Lost Ark vs. Airplane!
Crimes and Misdemeanors vs. Cinema Paradiso (haven't sen Cinema Paradiso)
Full Metal Jacket vs. Dirty Dancing (haven't seen Dirty Dancing)
Aliens vs. Manhunter (haven't seen Manhunter)
Back to the Future vs. Drugstore Cowboy
Ran vs. Fast Times at Ridgemont High (very duh)
The Princess Bride vs. The Untouchables (haven't seen The Princess Bride)
Grave of the Fireflies vs. Beetlejuice (it's been too long since I've seen Beetlejuice)
Do the Right Thing vs. Wall Street (easy choice)
The Right Stuff vs. The Thin Blue Line
Ghostbusters vs. The Fly
Dead Poets Society vs. Midnight Run (I haven't seen either)
The Empire Strikes Back vs. The Sacrifice (of course)
Broadcast News vs. The King of Comedy
My Neighbor Totoro vs. Sex, Lies, and Videotape
Paris, Texas vs. Blood Simple

So many mediocre commercial films (seriously, Top Gun?!), but no mention of L'Argent, Camp Thiaroye, City of Sadness, Damnation, Distant Voices, Still Lives, Dressed to Kill, The Emperor's Naked Army Marches On, Horse Thief, The Last Emperor, Love Streams, Mélo, Modern Romance, Next of Kin, Passion, Rouge, Sans soleil, Shoah, Sweetie, Taipei Story, Tampopo, Too Early/Too Late, Tootsie, Un histoire de vent, Working Girls, or A Zed and Two Noughts. Who the hell picked these movies?

[Idioteque Stalker]

E, you have the 80s almost fully covered. Respect.

[Idioteque Stalker]

So many mediocre commercial films (seriously, Top Gun?!), but no mention of L'Argent, Camp Thiaroye, City of Sadness, Damnation, Distant Voices, Still Lives, Dressed to Kill, The Emperor's Naked Army Marches On, Horse Thief, The Last Emperor, Love Streams, Mélo, Modern Romance, Next of Kin, Passion, Rouge, Sans soleil, Shoah, Sweetie, Taipei Story, Tampopo, Too Early/Too Late, Tootsie, Un histoire de vent, Working Girls, or A Zed and Two Noughts. Who the hell picked these movies?

Haha, yeah. It's a casual movie podcast hoping for massive audience participation, so it's very commercial-leaning. That's why Tootsie is a particularly surprising absence. L'Argent lost to The Sacrifice in a play-in "arthouse" match-up.

To me the biggest omission is Akira.

EDIT: Also,

Raising Arizona vs. Vegabond (duh)

Maybe I'll watch this soon. Been putting it off for whatever reason.

[Irish]

So many mediocre commercial films

It's more like: mediocre commercial films that suburban teenage boys love. (How does one even have this conversation and not mention Hong Kong? Or anything John Sayles was doing? Or the popular movies that didn't become eternal franchises? Eg --- "Officer and a Gentleman," "Terms of Endearment," "Broadcast News," etc.

I'll be shocked if "Back to the Future" doesn't win the whole thing, because it's an open poll and #filmtwitter is just that silly.

[Idioteque Stalker]

It's more like: mediocre commercial films that suburban teenage boys love. (How does one even have this conversation and not mention Hong Kong? Or anything John Sayles was doing? Or the popular movies that didn't become eternal franchises? Eg --- "Officer and a Gentleman," "Terms of Endearment," "Broadcast News," etc.

I'll be shocked if "Back to the Future" doesn't win the whole thing, because it's an open poll and #filmtwitter is just that silly.

I don't know much about film twitter, but in my imagination the number of suburban teenage boys is roughly equal to the number of people criticizing the suburban teenage boys for their taste. It's just a dumb game! Btw, Hong Kong is represented by the Killer, John Sayles is represented by Matewan (which lost to Sex, Lies and Videotape in a play-in match-up), Terms of Endearment lost the play-in to Moonstruck, and Broadcast News is currently in a match-up against The King of Comedy.

[transmogrifier]

That list makes the 80s look real boring. Some of the best mainstream movies are not considered: The Vanishing, House of Games, Near Dark, Hope & Glory, Withnail & I, The Purple Rose of Cairo, Hannah and Her Sisters, The Last Temptation of Christ, River's Edge, Laputa: Castle in the Sky, Salvador, Once Upon a Time in America, Videodrome, White Dog, Southern Comfort etc...

This is basically Best 80s Movies We Loved as Kids. Not that there is anything wrong with that. It gives the poll more of a focus, I guess. And I assume the films on the current list would filter through eventually given their accessibility and nostalgia.

And The Untouchables >>>>>>> The Princess Bride

[Idioteque Stalker]

And The Untouchables >>>>>>> The Princess Bride

Monster!

Btw, in the play-in round Hannah and Her Sisters lost to Crimes and Misdemeanors, The Last Temptation of Christ lost to The King of Comedy, and Videodrome lost to The Fly.

[baby doll]

This is basically Best 80s Movies We Loved as Kids. Not that there is anything wrong with that.No, there is something wrong with that. Nostalgia isn't a neutral emotion with no political implications. Even at its most harmless, nostalgia is inherently conservative and infantile. There's no aesthetic argument that one can make for Star Wars and its sequels as great filmmaking (they're diverting and click along at a good pace but they're not even half as pleasurable to watch as the Hawks and Kurosawa films that Lucas lifted all of his best ideas from), so the fact that adults still watch these films is explicable only as a shell-shocked reaction to the horrors of late capitalism that manifests itself as the desire to escape into a world of fantasy. In other words, the films--which were already nostalgic at the time of their release in their evocations of Saturday morning serials--are like security blankets for adults who are unable to cope with a horrific reality but feel helpless to change it. (Disney+ has displaced religion as the opiate of the masses.) It's not a huge leap from longing to return to one's childhood to longing to return to an idealized past before political correctness "ruined" everything.

[megladon8]

Am I misunderstanding or are you saying the original Star Wars is an objectively bad film?

[megladon8]

No, there is something wrong with that. Nostalgia isn't a neutral emotion with no political implications. Even at its most harmless, nostalgia is inherently conservative and infantile. There's no aesthetic argument that one can make for Star Wars and its sequels as great filmmaking (they're diverting and click along at a good pace but they're not even half as pleasurable to watch as the Hawks and Kurosawa films that Lucas lifted all of his best ideas from), so the fact that adults still watch these films is explicable only as a shell-shocked reaction to the horrors of late capitalism that manifests itself as the desire to escape into a world of fantasy. In other words, the films--which were already nostalgic at the time of their release in their evocations of Saturday morning serials--are like security blankets for adults who are unable to cope with a horrific reality but feel helpless to change it. (Disney+ has displaced religion as the opiate of the masses.) It's not a huge leap from longing to return to one's childhood to longing to return to an idealized past before political correctness "ruined" everything.

You're saying here that your opinions are objectively the correct ones.

How can you argue about the evils of nostalgia when you are so sure of your own nostalgia being the "correct" form?

I don't understand at all what you are trying to get at with this post.

[baby doll]

Am I misunderstanding or are you saying the original Star Wars is an objectively bad film?It's alright but not great, a pleasant enough way to kill a couple of hours but far from the best that Hollywood has to offer. Yes, that's just my opinion, but what's the counter-argument here? Has anybody made a case for Star Wars as something special in terms of its form and style?

Also, when I say that Hawks' and Kurosawa's films are aesthetically superior to Lucas' (which I don't think is a controversial opinion), I'm not being nostalgic because their films are great in of themselves.

[Irish]

No, there is something wrong with that. Nostalgia isn't a neutral emotion with no political implications. Even at its most harmless, nostalgia is inherently conservative and infantile. There's no aesthetic argument that one can make for Star Wars and its sequels as great filmmaking (they're diverting and click along at a good pace but they're not even half as pleasurable to watch as the Hawks and Kurosawa films that Lucas lifted all of his best ideas from), so the fact that adults still watch these films is explicable only as a shell-shocked reaction to the horrors of late capitalism that manifests itself as the desire to escape into a world of fantasy. In other words, the films--which were already nostalgic at the time of their release in their evocations of Saturday morning serials--are like security blankets for adults who are unable to cope with a horrific reality but feel helpless to change it. (Disney+ has displaced religion as the opiate of the masses.) It's not a huge leap from longing to return to one's childhood to longing to return to an idealized past before political correctness "ruined" everything.

Agree, save to say:

- Aesthetics probably isn't Filmspotting's main concern. They peppered their brackets with 4 Rob Reiner movies, 2 Indiana Jones movies, and ... Top Gun.
- I don't have a problem with nostalgia in a limited form. It's only when adults champion the taste of children that things get weird.
- This thread reminds me of something I heard as a teenager, about how one shouldn't have the same taste at 20 as you do at 40, or 60. I didn't understand it until I got a bit older.


Has anybody made a case for Star Wars as something special in terms of its form and style?

I mean ... I could, sorta?

But only about its detailed production design (very 70s in a lotta ways; very not, in others) and its writing (which is only "good," retroactively, because F/X driven pictures have become increasingly simple to the point of Don Simpson-style stupidity).

[Idioteque Stalker]

Mortal Kombat guy: "FINISH HIM"


Disney+ has displaced religion as the opiate of the masses.

[Idioteque Stalker]

Love the discussion here, but I sure wish more of you would add your personal votes for round one. (My two cents: there's such a thing as low-brow and high-brow, and they both have their pleasures.)

[transmogrifier]

No, there is something wrong with that. Nostalgia isn't a neutral emotion with no political implications. Even at its most harmless, nostalgia is inherently conservative and infantile. There's no aesthetic argument that one can make for Star Wars and its sequels as great filmmaking (they're diverting and click along at a good pace but they're not even half as pleasurable to watch as the Hawks and Kurosawa films that Lucas lifted all of his best ideas from), so the fact that adults still watch these films is explicable only as a shell-shocked reaction to the horrors of late capitalism that manifests itself as the desire to escape into a world of fantasy. In other words, the films--which were already nostalgic at the time of their release in their evocations of Saturday morning serials--are like security blankets for adults who are unable to cope with a horrific reality but feel helpless to change it. (Disney+ has displaced religion as the opiate of the masses.) It's not a huge leap from longing to return to one's childhood to longing to return to an idealized past before political correctness "ruined" everything.

I was meaning there is nothing wrong with making a list "Best 80s Movies We Loved as Kids." It's just a list, who cares?

Just like, if someone exclusively loves Marvel movies, Harry Potter, whatever, who cares? What bugs me is those cineastes who get all defensive over criticism of it, like when Scorsese offers his opinion and suddenly there is a crowd of screeching from sensitive film geeks who cannot handle someone not loving what they love. That's what is killing film criticism - it has become less of an analysis of film grammar, social context etc. and more of an excuse to signal your tastes to others, and any criticism is taken as a personal one. Hell, one poster on here left the site because (in part, I assume - I can't have been the only reason) I wasn't sufficiently effusive about [REDACTED] (or more likely, I should have just remained quiet to preserve a safe space for the film? IDK). I have never ever cared if someone dislikes a film I love. Why would you?

[baby doll]

I was meaning there is nothing wrong with making a list "Best 80s Movies We Loved as Kids." It's just a list, who cares?

Just like, if someone exclusively loves Marvel movies, Harry Potter, whatever, who cares?On a certain level, I don't care what other people watch, read, listen to, etc., because it doesn't affect me. That said, I still judge them for it. There's nothing wrong with adults watching films and reading books intended for children if they're good films and good books. Dickens wrote for a wide general readership which included children, but that doesn't make Great Expectations any less of a great novel than the most abstruse late works of Henry James. But Dickens could write. If you read his books as a child and returned to them as an adult, you would find new things to appreciate in them both in terms of Dickens' craftsmanship as a writer and his moral seriousness. The thing with Marvel and Harry Potter (and Star Wars) is that no one I'm aware of has made a case for them as great filmmaking or great writing. I haven't read the Harry Potter books but the first three films were at least entertaining--not so entertaining that I wanted to see more of them but passable. When it comes to superhero movies, on the other hand, I'm completely mystified. You would think there must be something to them if so many people love them so much, but the ones I've seen have been completely empty and their fans have been unable to muster any good arguments on their behalf. Louis Feuillade's Judex and Georges Franju's remake are about a caped crimefighter who hangs out in a cave, but Feuillade and Franju knew how to tell a story, stage a shot for the camera, and work with actors. Jon Favreau not so much.

[Spun Lepton]

I voted.


That said, I still judge them for it.

Because judging people based on their film tastes is such a good look for you.

[transmogrifier]

When it comes to superhero movies, on the other hand, I'm completely mystified. You would think there must be something to them if so many people love them so much, but the ones I've seen have been completely empty and their fans have been unable to muster any good arguments on their behalf.

Many people seem to enjoy tracking all of the connections between individual movies ("Ooh, that line by Iron Man in [Movie N] preshadows [random action X] in [Movie N+3]), seeing characters from different properties teaming up on screen, and predicting future plots (in the latter case, it often seems as if the current Movie N is treated like an extended trailer for the properties to come, fueling anticipation for the next trailer).

[transmogrifier]

I voted.



Because judging people based on their film tastes is such a good look for you.

The ironic thing is, I think a lot of people WANT to be judged on their taste in film (hell, I'm not immune to that). It's just, they get all huffy if the judgement is not positive.

[Idioteque Stalker]

The ironic thing is, I think a lot of people WANT to be judged on their taste in film (hell, I'm not immune to that). It's just, they get all huffy if the judgement is not positive.

Same. I assume this about everyone, and not only in regards to film. Maybe "judged" is a strong word to apply to all situations, but everyone likes a compliment, and even in certain cases some honest if unflattering feedback ('cause that at least shows one is paying attention).

[Spun Lepton]

I'm being the aggressor right now, which I do not like. I'll back off now. Sorry, baby doll.

[baby doll]

Many people seem to enjoy tracking all of the connections between individual movies ("Ooh, that line by Iron Man in [Movie N] preshadows [random action X] in [Movie N+3]), seeing characters from different properties teaming up on screen, and predicting future plots (in the latter case, it often seems as if the current Movie N is treated like an extended trailer for the properties to come, fueling anticipation for the next trailer).This is exactly what I don't understand about extended cinematic universes (and a fair amount of "prestige" television): you have to invest all this time and effort studying the ins and outs of a complicated mythology, yet at the end of the day, this Talmudic complexity doesn't make the story any more involving, emotional, or satisfying. Often it's just a smokescreen designed to hide the fact that the story is a trash heap of clichés. A forties B-movie like The Seventh Victim packs more atmosphere and character into seventy minutes than there is in the whole MCU, and it's more entertaining and better directed to boot.

[baby doll]

I'm being the aggressor right now, which I do not like. I'll back off now. Sorry, baby doll.No worries. Just to clarify, when I say I judge people for what they watch, I'm basing my judgement not only on the range of films they watch (do they watch foreign and experimental films or do they only watch recent Hollywood films) but also their reasoning for liking and disliking certain movies. Mike D'Angelo watches a lot of foreign movies, but in his writing, he strikes me as having a fairly rigid conception of what cinema can and should be and demonstrates little curiosity about other kinds of movies (including nearly all experimental films).

[Peng]

Matches with unbolded films are where I haven't watched one or both films.

Raging Bull vs. Ordinary People
Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade vs. Field of Dreams
Blue Velvet vs. A Nightmare On Elm Street
The Thing vs. Plains, Trains, and Automobiles
E.T. vs. Moonstruck
This Is Spinal Tap vs. The Elephant Man
Amadeus vs. Top Gun
When Harry Met Sally vs. Brazil
The Shining vs. Gremlins
Fanny and Alexander vs. A Fish Called Wanda
Ferris Bueller's Day Off vs. The Big Chill
The Terminator vs. Heathers
Blade Runner vs. The Killer
Stop Making Sense vs. Evil Dead 2
Die Hard vs. Who Framed Roger Rabbit
Raising Arizona vs. Vagabond
Raiders of the Lost Ark vs. Airplane!
Crimes and Misdemeanors vs. Cinema Paradiso
Full Metal Jacket vs. Dirty Dancing
Aliens vs. Manhunter
Back to the Future vs. Drugstore Cowboy
Ran vs. Fast Times at Ridgemont High
The Princess Bride vs. The Untouchables
Grave of the Fireflies vs. Beetlejuice
Do the Right Thing vs. Wall Street
The Right Stuff vs. The Thin Blue Line
Ghostbusters vs. The Fly
Dead Poets Society vs. Midnight Run
The Empire Strikes Back vs. The Sacrifice
Broadcast News vs. The King of Comedy
My Neighbor Totoro vs. Sex, Lies, and Videotape
Paris, Texas vs. Blood Simple

[Spun Lepton]

No worries. Just to clarify, when I say I judge people for what they watch, I'm basing my judgement not only on the range of films they watch (do they watch foreign and experimental films or do they only watch recent Hollywood films) but also their reasoning for liking and disliking certain movies. Mike D'Angelo watches a lot of foreign movies, but in his writing, he strikes me as having a fairly rigid conception of what cinema can and should be and demonstrates little curiosity about other kinds of movies (including nearly all experimental films).

I don't imagine you judging an EMT or an ER doctor for loving Harry Potter or Star Wars if cinema isn't a priority in their lives.

[megladon8]

https://i.postimg.cc/gcqz1VsD/Screenshot-20210228-152610-Chrome.jpg

[Skitch]

he strikes me as having a fairly rigid conception of what cinema can and should be

I feel this way about you. Throw off your shackles. Cinema can be anything and who gives a fuck what anybody likes.

[Idioteque Stalker]

Y'all, the thread title was meant to be tongue in cheek... which is why this ongoing Princess Bride disrespect will not stand!

[baby doll]

I feel this way about you. Throw off your shackles. Cinema can be anything and who gives a fuck what anybody likes.Well, I don't know if it can be anything, but I would say that my approach differs from D'Angelo's insofar as I try to take what Roger Ebert called a generic approach to film criticism: I try to figure out what a film wants to achieve, how well it does it, and what the spectator hopes to get out of it. So when I say Star Wars isn't a great film, it's not because I think fantasy films categorically can't be great cinema; I just don't think Star Wars is a great example of fantasy filmmaking. On the other hand, I find that a lot of D'Angelo's reviews boil down to: "This sort of thing isn't for me." For example, in his review of Rivette's Out 1 (https://letterboxd.com/gemko/film/out-1/) (a film I haven't seen, by the way), he complains that the first three episodes mainly consist of theatrical improv sessions without showing the slightest curiosity about what functions these scenes are supposed to serve. Even without having seen the film, it's evident from D'Angelo's review that the film is intentionally contrasting documentary and fictional materials, but D'Angelo apparently doesn't see that or care. In other words, he doesn't criticize the film because the improv sessions are handled poorly or don't serve a purpose in the film's overall structure; he simply doesn't like improv, full stop. Even when he's funny, D'Angelo's not a critic whose work enhances one's understanding of the film under consideration.

[baby doll]

I don't imagine you judging an EMT or an ER doctor for loving Harry Potter or Star Wars if cinema isn't a priority in their lives.No one escapes my judgement.

Of course, if the EMT or ER doctor had a good reason for liking for liking Harry Potter and Star Wars and could articulate it, I would judge them more favourably than someone who likes the same movies I do but does so for superficial reasons (i.e., liking a film for what it's about rather than how it's about it).

[Idioteque Stalker]

Mike D'Angelo watches a lot of foreign movies, but in his writing, he strikes me as having a fairly rigid conception of what cinema can and should be and demonstrates little curiosity about other kinds of movies (including nearly all experimental films).

This is interesting. To me, Mike reads more like a person who has clearly defined taste/preferences than a person who lacks curiosity. (I am somewhat curious about western animation but historically find more enjoyment in anime, and I have no reason to pretend otherwise.) I don't always agree with him, but I am often interested in what he has to say because it usually seems like an honest, well-considered opinion. Then I go elsewhere for experimental film analysis.

EDIT:
In other words, he doesn't criticize the film because the improv sessions are handled poorly or don't serve a purpose in the film's overall structure; he simply doesn't like improv, full stop.

I appreciate the candor in this regard. To me it's worth knowing if the review I'm reading is written by someone who doesn't usually like musicals, detective movies, MCU movies, etc. Or even if it's the first silent film they've seen, or the first anime, and so on.

[baby doll]

I am somewhat curious about western animation but historically find more enjoyment in anime, and I have no reason to pretend otherwise.Of course, I never said that we should assume, a priori, that creativity is equally distributed across all genres, periods, and national cinemas--only that one shouldn't criticize oranges for not being apples.

[Idioteque Stalker]

Of course, I never said that we should assume, a priori, that creativity is equally distributed across all genres, periods, and national cinemas--only that one shouldn't criticize oranges for not being apples.

Your point is well taken, but it should be noted that, while Mike does criticize Out 1 for being "what it is"/improv/oranges, in this particular case it actually is a movie/apples, and so I can understand where he's coming from. Now if he went to an improv show and complained about it being improv, that would be another thing.

[Mal]

Raging Bull vs. Ordinary People
Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade vs. Field of Dreams (N/A)
Blue Velvet vs. A Nightmare On Elm Street
The Thing vs. Plains, Trains, and Automobiles (N/A)
E.T. vs. Moonstruck
This Is Spinal Tap vs. The Elephant Man
Amadeus vs. Top Gun
When Harry Met Sally vs. Brazil (N/A)
The Shining vs. Gremlins
Fanny and Alexander vs. A Fish Called Wanda
Ferris Bueller's Day Off vs. The Big Chill (N/A)
The Terminator vs. Heathers
Blade Runner vs. The Killer (N/A)
Stop Making Sense vs. Evil Dead 2
Die Hard vs. Who Framed Roger Rabbit
Raising Arizona vs. Vagabond
Raiders of the Lost Ark vs. Airplane!
Crimes and Misdemeanors vs. Cinema Paradiso
Full Metal Jacket vs. Dirty Dancing (N/A)
Aliens vs. Manhunter
Back to the Future vs. Drugstore Cowboy (N/A)
Ran vs. Fast Times at Ridgemont High (N/A)
The Princess Bride vs. The Untouchables
Grave of the Fireflies vs. Beetlejuice
Do the Right Thing vs. Wall Street
The Right Stuff vs. The Thin Blue Line (N/A)
Ghostbusters vs. The Fly
Dead Poets Society vs. Midnight Run (N/A)
The Empire Strikes Back vs. The Sacrifice (N/A)
Broadcast News vs. The King of Comedy
My Neighbor Totoro vs. Sex, Lies, and Videotape
Paris, Texas vs. Blood Simple

[Idioteque Stalker]

Round One voting is closed on Filmspotting's website. (https://www.filmspotting.net/madness64) Winners in bold. Feel free to continue to post your votes in this thread!


Raging Bull vs. Ordinary People
Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade vs. Field of Dreams
Blue Velvet vs. A Nightmare On Elm Street
The Thing vs. Plains, Trains, and Automobiles
E.T. vs. Moonstruck
This Is Spinal Tap vs. The Elephant Man
Amadeus vs. Top Gun
When Harry Met Sally vs. Brazil
The Shining vs. Gremlins
Fanny and Alexander vs. A Fish Called Wanda
Ferris Bueller's Day Off vs. The Big Chill
The Terminator vs. Heathers
Blade Runner vs. The Killer (BLOWOUT OF THE WEEK)
Stop Making Sense vs. Evil Dead 2
Die Hard vs. Who Framed Roger Rabbit
Raising Arizona vs. Vagabond
Raiders of the Lost Ark vs. Airplane!
Crimes and Misdemeanors vs. Cinema Paradiso (NAIL-BITER OF THE WEEK)
Full Metal Jacket vs. Dirty Dancing
Aliens vs. Manhunter
Back to the Future vs. Drugstore Cowboy
Ran vs. Fast Times at Ridgemont High
The Princess Bride vs. The Untouchables
Grave of the Fireflies vs. Beetlejuice
Do the Right Thing vs. Wall Street
The Right Stuff vs. The Thin Blue Line
Ghostbusters vs. The Fly
Dead Poets Society vs. Midnight Run
The Empire Strikes Back vs. The Sacrifice
Broadcast News vs. The King of Comedy
My Neighbor Totoro vs. Sex, Lies, and Videotape
Paris, Texas vs. Blood Simple

[Dukefrukem]

This is exactly what I don't understand about extended cinematic universes (and a fair amount of "prestige" television): you have to invest all this time and effort studying the ins and outs of a complicated mythology, yet at the end of the day, this Talmudic complexity doesn't make the story any more involving, emotional, or satisfying. Often it's just a smokescreen designed to hide the fact that the story is a trash heap of clichés. A forties B-movie like The Seventh Victim packs more atmosphere and character into seventy minutes than there is in the whole MCU, and it's more entertaining and better directed to boot.

If you hadn't included this one word I would agree. Except the complexity does make it more emotional.

[Idioteque Stalker]

-- A message for those of you who haven't yet voted in this thread --

If you have a preference for either film in the following match-ups:

E.T. vs. Moonstruck
Blade Runner vs. The Killer
Crimes and Misdemeanors vs. Cinema Paradiso
Ran vs. Fast Times at Ridgemont High
The Princess Bride vs. The Untouchables

... then post your vote(s)! In a purely hypothetical alternate universe where I have tallied the Match Cut votes, these match-ups are currently tied. MC is currently diverting from the Filmspotting results in some key areas which could really shake things up down the road. (In the event of a MC tie, the tie-breaker will go to the Filmspotting winner -- but let's pave our own way!)

I will count round one MC votes for another 48 hours.

[Dukefrukem]

There's 27 (https://letterboxd.com/dukefrukem/list/embarrassing-i-have-not-seen-these-movies/) films in the first round I have not seen. Should I make a tournament styled voting thread to determine the order I should view them?

[megladon8]

E.T. vs. Moonstruck
Blade Runner vs. The Killer
Crimes and Misdemeanors vs. Cinema Paradiso
Ran vs. Fast Times at Ridgemont High
The Princess Bride vs. The Untouchables

[Idioteque Stalker]

There's 27 (https://letterboxd.com/dukefrukem/list/embarrassing-i-have-not-seen-these-movies/) films in the first round I have not seen. Should I make a tournament styled voting thread to determine the order I should view them?

I can't believe you gave me a blu-ray of The Right Stuff before watching it yourself.

[Dukefrukem]

I can't believe you gave me a blu-ray of The Right Stuff before watching it yourself.

lol. It was an 'everything must go' firesale.

[Skitch]

-- A message for those of you who haven't yet voted in this thread --

If you have a preference for either film in the following match-ups:

E.T. vs. Moonstruck
Blade Runner vs. The Killer
Crimes and Misdemeanors vs. Cinema Paradiso
Ran vs. Fast Times at Ridgemont High
The Princess Bride vs. The Untouchables

... then post your vote(s)! In a purely hypothetical alternate universe where I have tallied the Match Cut votes, these match-ups are currently tied. MC is currently diverting from the Filmspotting results in some key areas which could really shake things up down the road. (In the event of a MC tie, the tie-breaker will go to the Filmspotting winner -- but let's pave our own way!)

I will count round one MC votes for another 48 hours.

Dammit, FINE.

Raging Bull vs. Ordinary People
Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade vs. Field of Dreams - easy
Blue Velvet vs. A Nightmare On Elm Street
The Thing vs. Plains, Trains, and Automobiles - dammit
E.T. vs. Moonstruck
This Is Spinal Tap vs. The Elephant Man
Amadeus vs. Top Gun
When Harry Met Sally vs. Brazil - meh
The Shining vs. Gremlins - dammit
Fanny and Alexander vs. A Fish Called Wanda
Ferris Bueller's Day Off vs. The Big Chill
The Terminator vs. Heathers - wtf matchup is this
Blade Runner vs. The Killer
Stop Making Sense vs. Evil Dead 2
Die Hard vs. Who Framed Roger Rabbit - srsly?
Raising Arizona vs. Vagabond
Raiders of the Lost Ark vs. Airplane!
Crimes and Misdemeanors vs. Cinema Paradiso
Full Metal Jacket vs. Dirty Dancing
Aliens vs. Manhunter - dammit
Back to the Future vs. Drugstore Cowboy
Ran vs. Fast Times at Ridgemont High
The Princess Bride vs. The Untouchables - this is silly
Grave of the Fireflies vs. Beetlejuice - so is this
Do the Right Thing vs. Wall Street
The Right Stuff vs. The Thin Blue Line
Ghostbusters vs. The Fly
Dead Poets Society vs. Midnight Run
The Empire Strikes Back vs. The Sacrifice
Broadcast News vs. The King of Comedy
My Neighbor Totoro vs. Sex, Lies, and Videotape - not even close
Paris, Texas vs. Blood Simple

[baby doll]

If you hadn't included this one word I would agree. Except the complexity does make it more emotional.How so?

[Idioteque Stalker]

DAMN SKITCH! 100% completion. I figured E would reign supreme having to abstain from only three match-ups, but you win the 80s.

In case you missed my easy-to-miss rules several pages back, only vote in match-ups where you have seen both films. Not that I would ever doubt your status as supreme ruler.

[Skitch]

DAMN SKITCH! 100% completion. I figured E would reign supreme having to abstain from only three match-ups, but you win the 80s.

In case you missed my easy-to-miss rules several pages back, only vote in match-ups where you have seen both films. Not that I would ever doubt your status as supreme ruler.

I did miss that rule. Delete the following votes. Sorry for the hassle, multitasking at work. I'll underline the ones I haven't seen for those bored.

Raging Bull vs. Ordinary People
E.T. vs. Moonstruck
Fanny and Alexander vs. A Fish Called Wanda
Stop Making Sense vs. Evil Dead 2
Raising Arizona vs. Vagabond
Full Metal Jacket vs. Dirty Dancing
The Right Stuff vs. The Thin Blue Line
The Empire Strikes Back vs. The Sacrifice
Broadcast News vs. The King of Comedy
Paris, Texas vs. Blood Simple

[Idioteque Stalker]

Excellent. We now only have one tie. In a tight race for "who actually gives a fuck," Dead Poets Society vs. Midnight Run!

[Idioteque Stalker]

My Neighbor Totoro vs. Sex, Lies, and Videotape

You monster.

[Skitch]

You monster.

Dont worry, theres a SWAT team descending on his residence as we speak.

[Dukefrukem]

How so?

I suppose it's arguably less of complexity characteristic and more about the length of screen time for the characters. Screen time that wouldn't necessarily be possible in a 2 hour runtime, where as they pop up in different areas that add to their decisions and struggles. Tony Stark seeing this snip of his father, (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reQs3g5LO8E&ab_channel=TopMovieClips) and then meeting him (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sADI8kdB9_M&ab_channel=EntertainmentAccess ) 10 real life years later. I'm a sucker for father/son subplots so maybe this was just me, but there's a benefit to having this kind of flexibility.

I'm more accepting that these films are not really films anymore. Its just one long mini-series.

[Spun Lepton]

E.T. vs. Moonstruck
(Have only seen E.T. I suspect Moonstruck would be my pick if had seen it, however. Not a big fan of E.T.)

Blade Runner vs. The Killer
(Really difficult choice, because I love both of these. Would have even been more difficult if it has been Hard Boiled instead of The Killer.)

Crimes and Misdemeanors vs. Cinema Paradiso
(Have only seen Cinema Paradiso and loved it.)

Ran vs. Fast Times at Ridgemont High
(Honestly, don't remember a lot about either of these. I was probably stoned when I watched Ran. I remember only really caring about one particular scene in Fast Times when I was a teenager, and I'm sure you can guess which one. I'll give it to prestige.)

The Princess Bride vs. The Untouchables
(Again, really tough choice. Nostalgia won out.)

[Idioteque Stalker]

Round One is closed. Here are MC's results:


Raging Bull vs. Ordinary People (BLOWOUT)
Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade vs. Field of Dreams
Blue Velvet vs. A Nightmare On Elm Street
The Thing vs. Plains, Trains, and Automobiles (BLOWOUT)
E.T. vs. Moonstruck (NAIL-BITER)
This Is Spinal Tap vs. The Elephant Man (BLOWOUT)
Amadeus vs. Top Gun (BLOWOUT)
When Harry Met Sally vs. Brazil
The Shining vs. Gremlins (BLOWOUT)
Fanny and Alexander vs. A Fish Called Wanda (NAIL-BITER)
Ferris Bueller's Day Off vs. The Big Chill
The Terminator vs. Heathers (NAIL-BITER)
Blade Runner vs. The Killer
Stop Making Sense vs. Evil Dead 2
Die Hard vs. Who Framed Roger Rabbit
Raising Arizona vs. Vagabond (UPSET)
Raiders of the Lost Ark vs. Airplane!
Crimes and Misdemeanors vs. Cinema Paradiso
Full Metal Jacket vs. Dirty Dancing
Aliens vs. Manhunter
Back to the Future vs. Drugstore Cowboy
Ran vs. Fast Times at Ridgemont High
The Princess Bride vs. The Untouchables
Grave of the Fireflies vs. Beetlejuice
Do the Right Thing vs. Wall Street (BLOWOUT)
The Right Stuff vs. The Thin Blue Line
Ghostbusters vs. The Fly (UPSET+BLOWOUT)
Dead Poets Society vs. Midnight Run (TIE, went to Filmspotting winner)
The Empire Strikes Back vs. The Sacrifice
Broadcast News vs. The King of Comedy
My Neighbor Totoro vs. Sex, Lies, and Videotape (BLOWOUT)
Paris, Texas vs. Blood Simple (UPSET)

This thread is now dedicated to Match-Cut's tournament, which is distinct from Filmspotting's. The first post has been updated. If you want to find out what happens in the Filmspotting tournament, go to their website. (https://www.filmspotting.net/madness)

[Idioteque Stalker]

Voting for Round Two is now open! Vote now by posting in this thread or sending me a PM.

Raging Bull vs. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade
Blue Velvet vs. The Thing
E.T. vs. This Is Spinal Tap
Amadeus vs. When Harry Met Sally
The Shining vs. A Fish Called Wanda
Ferris Bueller’s Day Off vs. The Terminator
Blade Runner vs. Stop Making Sense
Die Hard vs. Vagabond
Raiders of the Lost Ark vs. Cinema Paradiso
Full Metal Jacket vs. Aliens
Back to the Future vs. Ran
The Princess Bride vs. Beetlejuice
Do the Right Thing vs. The Right Stuff
The Fly vs. Dead Poets Society
The Empire Strikes Back vs. The King of Comedy
My Neighbor Totoro vs. Paris, Texas

-- Both My Neighbor Totoro and Paris, Texas received strong support in round one -- who will win this week's match-up?

-- MC went against the grain picking The Fly over Ghostbusters in round one -- with what looks to be an easy match-up against Dead Poets Society in round two, is The Fly gaining momentum for a late push?

-- Will anyone else watch Vagabond?

Find out when voting closes one week from now!

[baby doll]

Raging Bull vs. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade
Blue Velvet vs. The Thing
E.T. vs. This Is Spinal Tap
Amadeus vs. When Harry Met Sally
The Shining vs. A Fish Called Wanda
Ferris Bueller’s Day Off vs. The Terminator
Blade Runner vs. Stop Making Sense
Die Hard vs. Vegabond
Raiders of the Lost Ark vs. Cinema Paradiso
Full Metal Jacket vs. Aliens
Back to the Future vs. Ran
The Princess Bride vs. Beetlejuice
Do the Right Thing vs. The Right Stuff
The Fly vs. Dead Poets Society
The Empire Strikes Back vs. The King of Comedy
My Neighbor Totoro vs. Paris, Texas

[Lazlo]

Raging Bull vs. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade
Blue Velvet vs. The Thing
E.T. vs. This Is Spinal Tap
Amadeus vs. When Harry Met Sally
The Shining vs. A Fish Called Wanda
Ferris Bueller’s Day Off vs. The Terminator
Blade Runner vs. Stop Making Sense
Die Hard vs. Vagabond
Raiders of the Lost Ark vs. Cinema Paradiso
Full Metal Jacket vs. Aliens
Back to the Future vs. Ran
The Princess Bride vs. Beetlejuice
Do the Right Thing vs. The Right Stuff
The Fly vs. Dead Poets Society
The Empire Strikes Back vs. The King of Comedy
My Neighbor Totoro vs. Paris, Texas

[Ezee E]

Raging Bull vs. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade
Blue Velvet vs. The Thing
E.T. vs. This Is Spinal Tap
Amadeus vs. When Harry Met Sally
The Shining vs. A Fish Called Wanda
Ferris Bueller’s Day Off vs. The Terminator
Blade Runner vs. Stop Making Sense
Die Hard vs. Vagabond
Raiders of the Lost Ark vs. Cinema Paradiso
Full Metal Jacket vs. Aliens
Back to the Future vs. Ran
The Princess Bride vs. Beetlejuice
Do the Right Thing vs. The Right Stuff
The Fly vs. Dead Poets Society
The Empire Strikes Back vs. The King of Comedy
My Neighbor Totoro vs. Paris, Texas

[Idioteque Stalker]

I'm now missing three movies. I'm going to watch Vagabond and The Right Stuff before voting, and I'll leave it up to y'all to "take care" of Dead Poets Society.

[Skitch]

Raging Bull vs. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade
Blue Velvet vs. The Thing
E.T. vs. This Is Spinal Tap

The Shining vs. A Fish Called Wanda
Ferris Bueller’s Day Off vs. The Terminator

Full Metal Jacket vs. Aliens

The Princess Bride vs. Beetlejuice
Do the Right Thing vs. The Right Stuff
The Fly vs. Dead Poets Society
The Empire Strikes Back vs. The King of Comedy
My Neighbor Totoro vs. Paris, Texas

[Idioteque Stalker]

Raging Bull stumbles out of the gate! Non-monsters mortified!

[Spun Lepton]

Stop Making Sense over Evil Dead 2? THIS GAME IS OVER!

[Skitch]

Stop Making Sense over Evil Dead 2? THIS GAME IS OVER!

Match-Cut.

[Idioteque Stalker]

Stop Making Sense over Evil Dead 2? THIS GAME IS OVER!

Oof, this was definitely the hardest decision from round one for me. It hurt, but I had to go with Stop Making Sense. I would also choose it over any Talking Heads album.

[transmogrifier]

Raging Bull Vs. The Last Crusade
Amadeus vs. When Harry Met Sally
The Princess Bride vs. Beetlejuice
The Shining vs. A Fish Called Wanda

These are the only ones I care about because the four I voted against are so damn overrated (and WHMS is the best romantic comedy ever made)

[Idioteque Stalker]

These are the only ones I care about because the four I voted against are so damn overrated (and WHMS is the best romantic comedy ever made)

So what you're saying is... you have chosen the coward's path, only making the easiest choices while opting out of the hard ones. For shame.

[transmogrifier]

So what you're saying is... you have chosen the coward's path, only making the easiest choices while opting out of the hard ones. For shame.

Correct.

[Mal]

Raging Bull vs. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade (N/A)
Blue Velvet vs. The Thing
E.T. vs. This Is Spinal Tap
Amadeus vs. When Harry Met Sally
The Shining vs. A Fish Called Wanda
Ferris Bueller’s Day Off vs. The Terminator
Blade Runner vs. Stop Making Sense
Die Hard vs. Vagabond
Raiders of the Lost Ark vs. Cinema Paradiso
Full Metal Jacket vs. Aliens
Back to the Future vs. Ran (N/A)
The Princess Bride vs. Beetlejuice
Do the Right Thing vs. The Right Stuff (N/A)
The Fly vs. Dead Poets Society (N/A)
The Empire Strikes Back vs. The King of Comedy
My Neighbor Totoro vs. Paris, Texas

[Idioteque Stalker]

Let the record show that, outside the match-ups in which he cast a vote, trans loves every movie in round two so dearly he couldn't bear to make the Sophie's choice.

Meanwhile, abstaining from only one match-up, E remains the king of the 80s.

And with two votes in a row for The Terminator, might Baby Doll be revealing himself as a deeply-closeted Arnie fanboy?

[baby doll]

And with two votes in a row for The Terminator, might Baby Doll be revealing himself as a deeply-closeted Arnie fanboy?I think I've been pretty vocal on this forum about my admiration for The Terminator (which I continue to regard as James Cameron's best film by a wide margin), and I might like Total Recall even better. I've also been meaning to revisit Predator, which I haven't seen since middle school.

Moreover, I really, really, really dislike both Heathers and Ferris Bueller's Day Off.

[StuSmallz]

No, there is something wrong with that. Nostalgia isn't a neutral emotion with no political implications. Even at its most harmless, nostalgia is inherently conservative and infantile. There's no aesthetic argument that one can make for Star Wars and its sequels as great filmmakingOf course you can, silly. In fact, I'll do it right now, using Empire as a case study...

*clears throat*

The Empire Strikes Back sheds the more static camerawork, Kurosawa-style wipes, and Ford-ian landscape shots of Lucas's direction on A New Hope in favor of a more distinctive, less obviously "inspired by ___" style, utilizing grander, more dynamic/kinetic cinematography...

https://i.ibb.co/ZYKt4Cx/hoth.gif (https://imgbb.com/)

...unsettling slow motion that creates the effect of a waking nightmare...


https://youtu.be/_qiDuHCKSc8

...and higher-contrast photography with a greater emphasis on color to make certain vital visual elements pop out more...

https://i.ibb.co/ry1St9G/starwars-V-4773.jpg (https://ibb.co/12w5ncf)

...in order to create a much more unique and accomplished overall aesthetic, one that serves to make the story of the film truly come alive as a result.

See? : D
I think I've been pretty vocal on this forum about my admiration for The Terminator (which I continue to regard as James Cameron's best film by a wide margin), and I might like Total Recall even better. I've also been meaning to revisit Predator, which I haven't seen since middle school.

Moreover, I really, really, really dislike both Heathers and Ferris Bueller's Day Off.Yeah; I mean, T2 is still a great movie in its own right for me, and almost as good as the original, but it still has a teenage Eddie Furlong in it (ugh), and tries too hard to turn its T-800 into just another version of "Arnie" in its second half, complete with badass one-liners, delivered with a big smirk on his face. So for me, there's just no beating the darker tone of the original, with the Terminator as the stone-cold killer he should've remained as, so it has to be my favorite of the series (https://letterboxd.com/stusmallz/tag/terminator/reviews/) (well, at least of the ones I've seen, which are the first three; not really expecting the later ones to overtake it considering what I've heard about them, though...).

[Irish]

I think I've been pretty vocal on this forum about my admiration for The Terminator (which I continue to regard as James Cameron's best film by a wide margin), and I might like Total Recall even better. I've also been meaning to revisit Predator, which I haven't seen since middle school.

Moreover, I really, really, really dislike both Heathers and Ferris Bueller's Day Off.

This post surprised me 3 times.

The only question I have is: Why the dislike of "Heathers"?


...and higher-contrast photography with a greater emphasis on color to make certain vital visual elements pop out more...

That isn't great filmmaking. It's just filmmaking.

[StuSmallz]

That isn't great filmmaking. It's just filmmaking.You could literally dismiss every aesthetic technique ever used by any filmmaker by posting that, but, that wouldn't be great posting... it would just be posting.

[baby doll]

Of course you can, silly. In fact, I'll do it right now, using Empire as a case study...

*clears throat*

The Empire Strikes Back sheds the more static camerawork, Kurosawa-style wipes, and Ford-ian landscape shots of Lucas's direction on A New Hope in favor of a more distinctive, less obviously "inspired by ___" style, utilizing grander, more dynamic/kinetic cinematography...

https://i.ibb.co/ZYKt4Cx/hoth.gif (https://imgbb.com/)

...unsettling slow motion that creates the effect of a waking nightmare...


https://youtu.be/_qiDuHCKSc8

...and higher-contrast photography with a greater emphasis on color to make certain vital visual elements pop out more...

https://i.ibb.co/ry1St9G/starwars-V-4773.jpg (https://ibb.co/12w5ncf)

...in order to create a much more unique and accomplished overall aesthetic, one that serves to make the story of the film truly come alive as a result.

See? :Couldn't one make identical claims for a great many, if not most, contemporary Hollywood blockbusters? Using colour to highlight significant objects in the mise en scène, and slow motion for dramatic actions, are routine technical choices. And given that Lucas and co. had much more money at their disposal on The Empire Strikes Back than they did on the first film, it's to be expected that the sequel would have a grander scale in terms of its production design and a more mobile camera style--although calling the film's style "dynamic" is probably pushing it. Neither the pictures you've provided nor the clip demonstrate much imagination in terms of staging or framing--just a lot of shallow, centred compositions with lots of empty space on the sides so nothing important gets lost when the film is panned and scanned for television. Lawrence Kasdan is certainly a competent professional filmmaker but that doesn't make him Orson Welles.

[baby doll]

This post surprised me 3 times.

The only question I have is: Why the dislike of "Heathers"?I haven't seen it in a decade so I'm a bit hazy on the details, but if memory serves, I didn't believe in or care about any of the characters, I didn't the jokes funny, and it had a cheap, gaudy look to it.

[megladon8]

I had no idea that baby doll loves Terminator and Total Recall.

[Peng]

Raging Bull vs. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade
Blue Velvet vs. The Thing
E.T. vs. This Is Spinal Tap
Amadeus vs. When Harry Met Sally
The Shining vs. A Fish Called Wanda
Ferris Bueller’s Day Off vs. The Terminator
Blade Runner vs. Stop Making Sense
Die Hard vs. Vagabond
Raiders of the Lost Ark vs. Cinema Paradiso
Full Metal Jacket vs. Aliens
Back to the Future vs. Ran
The Princess Bride vs. Beetlejuice
Do the Right Thing vs. The Right Stuff
The Fly vs. Dead Poets Society
The Empire Strikes Back vs. The King of Comedy
My Neighbor Totoro vs. Paris, Texas

[Idioteque Stalker]

You could literally dismiss every aesthetic technique ever used by any filmmaker by posting that, but, that wouldn't be great posting... it would just be posting.


https://media.giphy.com/media/Aff4ryYiacUO4/giphy.gif

[Idioteque Stalker]

I'm impressed Stu/Irish/anyone can break down the greatness of Empire. I've seen it so many times, from such a young age, to articulate anything about the craft seems nearly impossible.

[megladon8]

There are some pretty cool videos on YouTube that go in depth into the OT (non special editions) and why they are incredible films from both visual and storytelling views.

I find it difficult to accept the claim that adults who love those movies do so out of nothing but nostalgia. Shouldn't there be the same level of adoration for Battlestar Galactica, Battle Beyond the Stars, and Krull?

There was something objectively special about those movies, even beyond their technical wizardry. The cast is perfect, the visuals in all three films remain astounding to this day and have yet to be topped by anything else in the series.

I know I'm not saying anything revelatory here. Just throwing in my two cents that I think the nostalgia argument is seriously selling them short.

[Mr. McGibblets]

Raging Bull vs. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade
Blue Velvet vs. The Thing
E.T. vs. This Is Spinal Tap
Amadeus vs. When Harry Met Sally
The Shining vs. A Fish Called Wanda
Ferris Bueller’s Day Off vs. The Terminator
Blade Runner vs. Stop Making Sense
Die Hard vs. Vagabond (haven't seen Vagabond)
Raiders of the Lost Ark vs. Cinema Paradiso
Full Metal Jacket vs. Aliens
Back to the Future vs. Ran
The Princess Bride vs. Beetlejuice
Do the Right Thing vs. The Right Stuff
The Fly vs. Dead Poets Society (haven't seen either)
The Empire Strikes Back vs. The King of Comedy
My Neighbor Totoro vs. Paris, Texas

[baby doll]

I had no idea that baby doll loves Terminator and Total Recall.Well, who doesn't?

[Spun Lepton]

Total Recall is my favorite Arnold movie.

[Idioteque Stalker]

I met someone once who said they didn't like Total Recall. Shocking, I know. And this was even before the shitty remake had a chance to soil the original's reputation.

[megladon8]

I worked with a guy at Lowe's who hated potatoes. In any form. Mashed, baked, French fries, potato chips. Hated them.

Now THAT is weird.

[baby doll]

There are some pretty cool videos on YouTube that go in depth into the OT (non special editions) and why they are incredible films from both visual and storytelling views.

I find it difficult to accept the claim that adults who love those movies do so out of nothing but nostalgia. Shouldn't there be the same level of adoration for Battlestar Galactica, Battle Beyond the Stars, and Krull?

There was something objectively special about those movies, even beyond their technical wizardry. The cast is perfect, the visuals in all three films remain astounding to this day and have yet to be topped by anything else in the series.

I know I'm not saying anything revelatory here. Just throwing in my two cents that I think the nostalgia argument is seriously selling them short.Although I can't claim to be very well versed in the critical literature on Star Wars (to say nothing of what goes on on YouTube), the only semi-plausible defence of the film I've come across is in Julie Turnoc's book Plastic Reality, in which she leans heavily on Lucas' background in the San Francisco experimental film scene of the late 1960s, which also produced Jordan Belson and Pat O'Neill. Turnoc quotes Lucas as saying in an interview:


I come from experimental cinema; it's my speciality. [...] My friendship and association with Coppola compelled me to write. His speciality is "literature," traditional writing. He studied theater, text; he's a lot more oriented towards "play writing" than I am.

Turnoc argues that audiences and reviewers of the 1970s experienced Star Wars (and other films by the Movie Brat generation) as a radically new kind of cinema, which demoted narrative to the status of but one "area of potential attraction" in a visceral audio-visual experience--as opposed to the more narrative-centred classical cinema of the 1920s-1950s, which by the late 1970s was beginning to feel like an anachronism. In other words, according to Turnoc, Star Wars and Close Encounters of the Third Kind represent the birth of cinema as multi-million dollar light show.

However, I would argue that Lucas' background in experimental filmmaking is much more relevant to THX 1131--my favourite Lucas film for its disorienting style which overwhelms the sub-Orwellian plot--than Star Wars, in which Lucas' style is largely subordinate to task of keeping the plot chugging along as smoothly and efficiently as possible.

[megladon8]

I think you're conflating "experimental" with "good". I've seen plenty of experimental films that were nigh unwatchable dreck, and there are many by-the-numbers crowd pleasers that are made with impeccable craftsmanship and artistry (and vice versa of course).

A significant amount of Pixar's output has been just that - archetypal story telling that is just dialed in so tightly and with such beautiful audio visual design that the material is elevated.

It's also very hard to take seriously a statement like "the only semi-plausible defence of the film I've come across"...one of the most celebrated sets of films in all of history, and in all your studies of film you have only found one respectable defense of the love they get? Come on...

[baby doll]

I think you're conflating "experimental" with "good". I've seen plenty of experimental films that were nigh unwatchable dreck, and there are many by-the-numbers crowd pleasers that are made with impeccable craftsmanship and artistry (and vice versa of course).

A significant amount of Pixar's output has been just that - archetypal story telling that is just dialed in so tightly and with such beautiful audio visual design that the material is elevated.

It's also very hard to take seriously a statement like "the only semi-plausible defence of the film I've come across"...one of the most celebrated sets of films in all of history, and in all your studies of film you have only found one respectable defense of the love they get? Come on...Star Wars doesn't really fall into my area of expertise, and not being terribly interested in it, I've not made an effort to familiarize myself with the literature on it (which I'm sure is extensive). I'm only familiar with Turnoc's book because I had to read two chapters for a class I took. Nobody can read everything.

Of course, it was never my intention to conflate experimental with good; my point was simply that it is more profitable to approach THX 1131 in that spirit than Star Wars. And taken as an instance of classical filmmaking, the latter film has even less to recommend it. As far as I can tell, Lucas' major innovation in the film was to achieve a kind of hyper-legibility: If every character and situation is a cliché and every shot organized to be instantly legible even to very small children, the film can shuttle the viewer through its obligatory plot with virtually no friction. It's consistently pleasant to watch but it never engaged me very deeply.

[megladon8]

See that's perfectly reasonable and understandable.

I know they're not your bailiwick, which I understand completely. The same way that say, Godard, isn't mine. I still see the immense value and credibility he has lent to film as an art medium.

DaMU and I came up with a really great new direction for Star Wars to take, when we were discussing a few weeks ago.

Have it open with Luke, cloaked in black, assembling a new lightsaber.

When he switches it on, the theater explodes at the ear shattering loudness of AC/DC'S Back in Black.

Michael Bay's Star Wars.

[Skitch]

My wife hated The Princess Bride.

[Spun Lepton]

C hates The Princess Bride, too.

[Idioteque Stalker]

When meg said bailiwick my mind said, "Well that's obviously not a word." Turns out I was wrong.

And not liking The Princess Bride is inconceivable.

[Skitch]

Its weird, right? And my wife adores puns. How can you not like that movie?

[Idioteque Stalker]

I watched Vagabond. Great movie. There's lots to appreciate, but the discordant score and Sandrine Bonnaire's performance were the highlights for me. Not opposed at all to it being in the discussion for best of the 80s. Nomadland, but way better.

[Idioteque Stalker]

I watched The Right Stuff as well. Not bad, but definitely too long. The Chuck Yeager stuff should've been cut.

[Idioteque Stalker]

Raging Bull vs. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade (YAWN)
Blue Velvet vs. The Thing
E.T. vs. This Is Spinal Tap
Amadeus vs. When Harry Met Sally
The Shining vs. A Fish Called Wanda (ouch)
Ferris Bueller’s Day Off vs. The Terminator
Blade Runner vs. Stop Making Sense (yawn)
Die Hard vs. Vagabond (ouch)
Raiders of the Lost Ark vs. Cinema Paradiso
Full Metal Jacket vs. Aliens (yawn)
Back to the Future vs. Ran (ouch)
The Princess Bride vs. Beetlejuice
Do the Right Thing vs. The Right Stuff (yawn)
The Fly vs. Dead Poets Society
The Empire Strikes Back vs. The King of Comedy (ouch)
My Neighbor Totoro vs. Paris, Texas (OUCH)

[baby doll]

I watched The Right Stuff as well. Not bad, but definitely too long. The Chuck Yeager stuff should've been cut.Bunny Yeager > Chuck Yeager

[Idioteque Stalker]

Bunny Yeager > Chuck Yeager

After a quick google search I contemplated showing my support for excellent photography by ordering "Bunny Yeager's Beautiful Backsides," but alas an Amazon reviewer informed me that it "gets old fairly quickly," so I decided against it.

EDIT: Idea for next madness tournament: "Best Yeagers of all time"

[Idioteque Stalker]

-- A message for those of you who haven't yet voted in Round Two --

Voting is open for another 48 hours. Although we do not currently have any ties, we do have several nail-biter match-ups. Every vote counts! There are five people who have posted in this thread but have not voted in round two. You don't have to vote, of course, but it would be cool if you did. Remember, PMs are also accepted.

Also, in case anyone is planning on catching up on some of the movies in competition, be aware the window to vote will get progressively shorter in later rounds.

[Idioteque Stalker]

Round Two is now closed. Here are MC's results:


Raging Bull vs. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade
Blue Velvet vs. The Thing (UPSET)
E.T. vs. This Is Spinal Tap
Amadeus vs. When Harry Met Sally
The Shining vs. A Fish Called Wanda
Ferris Bueller’s Day Off vs. The Terminator (NAIL-BITER)
Blade Runner vs. Stop Making Sense (UPSET)
Die Hard vs. Vagabond (UPSET)
Raiders of the Lost Ark vs. Cinema Paradiso
Full Metal Jacket vs. Aliens (NAIL-BITER)
Back to the Future vs. Ran (UPSET)
The Princess Bride vs. Beetlejuice (BLOWOUT)
Do the Right Thing vs. The Right Stuff
The Fly vs. Dead Poets Society (UNANIMOUS BLOWOUT)
The Empire Strikes Back vs. The King of Comedy (BLOWOUT)
My Neighbor Totoro vs. Paris, Texas

[Skitch]

Blue Velvet upset The Thing? C'mon Match-Cut.

[Idioteque Stalker]

Voting for the Sweet Sixteen is now open! Vote now by posting in this thread or sending me a PM.

Raging Bull vs. Blue Velvet
This Is Spinal Tap vs. Amadeus
The Shining vs. The Terminator
Stop Making Sense vs. Vagabond
Raiders of the Lost Ark vs. Aliens
Ran vs. The Princess Bride
Do the Right Thing vs. The Fly
The Empire Strikes Back vs. My Neighbor Totoro


Underdog Watch!

-- Vagabond has taken down big names in Raising Arizona and Die Hard. Will the upsets continue, or will Vagabond's inspirational story Stop Making Sense?

-- The Fly is the only film to enjoy blowouts in both rounds. In fact, only one vote has been tallied against it (E, a monster, prefers Ghostbusters). With a ride-or-die match-up against Do the Right Thing, will The Fly reveal itself as a mirage or position itself as a real contender?

-- Ran upset suburban teenage boys across the globe with its wins over Back to the Future and Fast Times at Ridgemont High. If it defeats The Princess Bride, will Stalker shut this whole thing down?


Find out when voting closes in five days!

[Skitch]

Raging Bull vs. Blue Velvet
This Is Spinal Tap vs. Amadeus
The Shining vs. The Terminator

Raiders of the Lost Ark vs. Aliens

Do the Right Thing vs. The Fly
The Empire Strikes Back vs. My Neighbor Totoro

[Idioteque Stalker]

The Empire Strikes Back vs. My Neighbor Totoro

The most brutal match-up of the tournament. No matter which way one votes, one is an abhorrent monster.

Anyways... you're a monster.

[Skitch]

The most brutal match-up of the tournament. No matter which way one votes, one is an abhorrent monster.

Anyways... you're a monster.

I don't like it, but tauntauns are the better animal to climb inside of.

[Idioteque Stalker]

I don't like it, but tauntauns are the better animal to climb inside of.

And I thought catbus smelled bad on the outside!

Good logic by the way.

[Spun Lepton]

I don't know if I can continue to participate in this CHARADE. A CONCERT MOVIE over Blade Runner? Blue Velvet over The Thing? Get outta here.

[Skitch]

I found the original matchups upsetting, so I wasn't gonna play, but decided to when there was ties.

[Yxklyx]

Raging Bull vs. Blue Velvet
This Is Spinal Tap vs. Amadeus
The Shining vs. The Terminator
Stop Making Sense vs. Vagabond
Raiders of the Lost Ark vs. Aliens
Ran vs. The Princess Bride
Do the Right Thing vs. The Fly
The Empire Strikes Back vs. My Neighbor Totoro

This Is Spinal Tap & My Neighbor Totoro are due for re-watches. All the others except for The Princess Bride I've seen multiple times.

p.s. missed round 2.

[Lazlo]

Raging Bull vs. Blue Velvet
This Is Spinal Tap vs. Amadeus
The Shining vs. The Terminator
Stop Making Sense vs. Vagabond
Raiders of the Lost Ark vs. Aliens
Ran vs. The Princess Bride
Do the Right Thing vs. The Fly
The Empire Strikes Back vs. My Neighbor Totoro

[Idioteque Stalker]

A CONCERT MOVIE over Blade Runner?

Correction: THE concert movie. And one must vote in a round to complain about its results. (Btw an additional vote for the movies you mentioned wouldn't have changed the results, but the match-ups would've at least been upgraded to the more respectable "nail-biter" status.)

[baby doll]

Raging Bull vs. Blue Velvet
This Is Spinal Tap vs. Amadeus
The Shining vs. The Terminator
Stop Making Sense vs. Vagabond
Raiders of the Lost Ark vs. Aliens
Ran vs. The Princess Bride
Do the Right Thing vs. The Fly
The Empire Strikes Back vs. My Neighbor Totoro

[Idioteque Stalker]

Raging Bull stumbles out of the gate AGAIN! It rallied late in round two, but could this finally be the end for Roger Ebert's favorite movie of the decade?

[Idioteque Stalker]

Raging Bull vs. Blue Velvet (YAWN)
This Is Spinal Tap vs. Amadeus
The Shining vs. The Terminator (yawn)
Stop Making Sense vs. Vagabond
Raiders of the Lost Ark vs. Aliens
Ran vs. The Princess Bride
Do the Right Thing vs. The Fly (ouch)
The Empire Strikes Back vs. My Neighbor Totoro (OUCH)

[Skitch]

[
The Empire Strikes Back vs. My Neighbor Totoro (OUCH)

https://i.imgur.com/CHKsnvg.jpg
YOU MONSTER

[Mal]

Raging Bull vs. Blue Velvet
This Is Spinal Tap vs. Amadeus
The Shining vs. The Terminator
Stop Making Sense vs. Vagabond
Raiders of the Lost Ark vs. Aliens
Ran vs. The Princess Bride (n/a)
Do the Right Thing vs. The Fly
The Empire Strikes Back vs. My Neighbor Totoro

[Ezee E]

Raging Bull vs. Blue Velvet
This Is Spinal Tap vs. Amadeus
The Shining vs. The Terminator
Stop Making Sense vs. Vagabond
Raiders of the Lost Ark vs. Aliens
Ran vs. The Princess Bride
Do the Right Thing vs. The Fly
The Empire Strikes Back vs. My Neighbor Totoro

[Mr. McGibblets]

Raging Bull vs. Blue Velvet (really neither, though)
This Is Spinal Tap vs. Amadeus
The Shining vs. The Terminator
Stop Making Sense vs. Vagabond (haven't seen Vagabond)
Raiders of the Lost Ark vs. Aliens
Ran vs. The Princess Bride
Do the Right Thing vs. The Fly (I really want to vote for DTRT, but haven't seen The Fly)
The Empire Strikes Back vs. My Neighbor Totoro

[Spun Lepton]

Correction: THE concert movie. And one must vote in a round to complain about its results. (Btw an additional vote for the movies you mentioned wouldn't have changed the results, but the match-ups would've at least been upgraded to the more respectable "nail-biter" status.)

I voted in the last round, damn it. I've only seen part of Stop Making Sense, so it wasn't right for me to vote on that one.

[Idioteque Stalker]

I voted in the last round, damn it. I've only seen part of Stop Making Sense, so it wasn't right for me to vote on that one.

I have votes from you for round one but not round two. Maybe you voted on Filmspotting's site but not here? Regardless, you can vote in the sweet sixteen and reclaim your right to complain. :)

[Spun Lepton]

I voted on the site. I assumed the results you posted were from the site.

[Idioteque Stalker]

Ah yes, that explains it. The nature of this thread has changed since it started. I'll take this chance to reiterate the MC tournament is now distinct from Filmspotting's, and here are some key differences just for fun:

In Filmspotting's tournament, The Thing edged out Blue Velvet in round two. MC went the other way, and furthermore Blue Velvet is currently leading Raging Bull in the Sweet Sixteen. Raging Bull is one of the 80's heaviest hitters, but MC has a long history of David Lynch love.

Through a series of notable MC upsets, our current match-up of Stop Making Sense vs. Vagabond has replaced Filmspotting's match-up of Die Hard vs. Blade Runner. Definitely an instance of MC showing its quirkier side.

And then of course there's fan-favorite Back to the Future, which Irish predicted would win the whole Filmspotting tournament (and so far he may be right, as it has enjoyed two blowout victories averaging 80% of the votes), but here on MC lost to Ran.

[Peng]

Raging Bull vs. Blue Velvet
This Is Spinal Tap vs. Amadeus
The Shining vs. The Terminator
Stop Making Sense vs. Vagabond
Raiders of the Lost Ark vs. Aliens
Ran vs. The Princess Bride
Do the Right Thing vs. The Fly
The Empire Strikes Back vs. My Neighbor Totoro

[Spun Lepton]

Raging Bull vs. Blue Velvet
This Is Spinal Tap vs. Amadeus
The Shining vs. The Terminator
Stop Making Sense vs. Vagabond
Raiders of the Lost Ark vs. Aliens
Ran vs. The Princess Bride
Do the Right Thing vs. The Fly
The Empire Strikes Back vs. My Neighbor Totoro

[Idioteque Stalker]

Raiders vs. Aliens is now the tightest race of the tournament so far.

[transmogrifier]

Raiders vs. Aliens

[Idioteque Stalker]

lol dammit trans

[Skitch]

Raiders vs. Aliens

My man

[Yxklyx]

So I re-watched Back to the Future tonight. It's better than I remember - but it's just a decent funny flick. Don't understand all the high praise. Oh, was it kicked out of competition?

[Idioteque Stalker]

So I re-watched Back to the Future tonight. It's better than I remember - but it's just a decent funny flick. Don't understand all the high praise. Oh, was it kicked out of competition?

It's a good movie, but more of a fan favorite than a critical darling. MC wasn't buying into the nostalgia and went with Ran instead.

EDIT: That being said, in the mother tournament (https://www.filmspotting.net/madness) it's well on its way to the Elite Eight.

[transmogrifier]

lol dammit trans

Happy to be of assistance. :)

[Idioteque Stalker]

-- A message to those of you who haven't yet voted in the Sweet Sixteen --

With 24 hours to go, we have two ties:

Raiders vs. Aliens (I know we have some people here who can break this one!)

Stop Making Sense vs. Vagabond (This one may be more difficult -- tie-breaker will go to Stop Making Sense because it made it further than Vagabond in Filmspotting's tournament.)

[Idioteque Stalker]

The Sweet Sixteen is now closed. Here are MC's results:


Raging Bull vs. Blue Velvet (UPSET)
This Is Spinal Tap vs. Amadeus (UPSET)
The Shining vs. The Terminator (BLOWOUT)
Stop Making Sense vs. Vagabond (TIE, Filmspotting determines tie-breaker)
Raiders of the Lost Ark vs. Aliens (NAIL-BITER + UPSET)
Ran vs. The Princess Bride
Do the Right Thing vs. The Fly (BLOWOUT)
The Empire Strikes Back vs. My Neighbor Totoro (NAIL-BITER)

[Idioteque Stalker]

Underdog Watch!

It was fun while it lasted.

[Idioteque Stalker]

Voting for the Elite Eight is now open! Vote now by posting in this thread or sending me a PM.

Blue Velvet vs. Amadeus
The Shining vs. Stop Making Sense
Aliens vs. The Princess Bride
Do the Right Thing vs. The Empire Strikes Back


Contenders or Pretenders?

After an easy win over Manhunter in round one, Aliens was put through the ringer, defeating Full Metal Jacket in a nail-biter match-up before knocking Spielberg out of the tournament with its bum-clenching overtime victory against Raiders of the Lost Ark. Has Aliens been strengthened by its tough path to the Elite Eight, or will The Princess Bride go full Inigo Montoya and strike down a weakened foe?

Stop Making Sense weathered tough match-ups against Evil Dead 2, Blade Runner, and tournament dark horse Vagabond; meanwhile, The Shining barely broke a sweat against Gremlins, A Fish Called Wanda, and The Terminator. Who will reign supreme in what might be the Elite Eight's most hard-to-predict match-up?

Through three rounds, Do the Right Thing has been voted against a total of only three times (Skitch and Lazlo are the monsters responsible) and most recently enjoyed a statement blowout win over The Fly, which was red hot at the time. The Empire Strikes Back is its toughest competitor yet, but one has to wonder: does the path to the championship go through Spike Lee?


Find out when voting closes in four days!

[Skitch]

You are the ones who are the ball lickers!

These lineups were dubious. Making me Sophies Choice this shit.

[Idioteque Stalker]

I just want to point out that Totoro almost took out The Empire Strikes Back.

[Dukefrukem]

My only vote can be Aliens over the Princess Bride.

[Yxklyx]

Blue Velvet vs. Amadeus
The Shining vs. Stop Making Sense
Aliens vs. The Princess Bride
Do the Right Thing vs. The Empire Strikes Back

I'm betting it will be Do the Right Thing vs Blue Velvet and that Do the Right Thing will win.

[baby doll]

Blue Velvet vs. Amadeus
The Shining vs. Stop Making Sense
Aliens vs. The Princess Bride
Do the Right Thing vs. The Empire Strikes Back

[Idioteque Stalker]

Blue Velvet vs. Amadeus (yawn)
The Shining vs. Stop Making Sense (ouch)
Aliens vs. The Princess Bride (YAWN)
Do the Right Thing vs. The Empire Strikes Back (OUCH)

[Spun Lepton]

Aliens vs. The Princess Bride

[Idioteque Stalker]

You xenomorph-lovers can all be cast into the depths of the fire swamp for all I care.

EDIT: And can I just add that, while I'm pretty sure he's busy writing a dissertation on global economics through the lens of Hou Hsiao-Hsien, in my dreams baby doll watches The Princess Bride, proclaims it to be spicy, and comes to my aid at the last moment.

[Skitch]

Blue Velvet vs. Amadeus

Aliens vs. The Princess Bride
Do the Right Thing vs. The Empire Strikes Back

[transmogrifier]

Aliens vs. Princess Bride
Do the Right Thing vs. THe Empire Strikes Back
Blue Velvet vs. Amadeus

[transmogrifier]

The Shining, Amadeus, and The Princess Bride are three of the most overrated movies of the 80s. For shame, Match Cut.

[Skitch]

I love Princess Bride and it wouldn't make my top ten of the 80s.

[Lazlo]

Blue Velvet vs. Amadeus
The Shining vs. Stop Making Sense
Aliens vs. The Princess Bride
Do the Right Thing vs. The Empire Strikes Back

[Mr. McGibblets]

Blue Velvet vs. Amadeus
The Shining vs. Stop Making Sense
Aliens vs. The Princess Bride
Do the Right Thing vs. The Empire Strikes Back (These are probably my top 2 among all 8 movies left).

[baby doll]

The Shining, Amadeus, and The Princess Bride are three of the most overrated movies of the 80s. For shame, Match Cut.What's your beef with Amadeus? For me, it's probably Forman's most entertaining film after Taking Off (although I still haven't seen The Fireman's Ball).

[transmogrifier]

What's your beef with Amadeus? For me, it's probably Forman's most entertaining film after Taking Off (although I still haven't seen The Fireman's Ball).

Nothing specific anymore, because it's been years and years since I have seen it. I found it rather tedious, as I remember. I should revisit it so that either (a) I can jump on the bandwagon and enjoy the warm embrace of cultural acceptance or (b) double down on my roguish disdain for the critical consensus and become more annoying about it. EIther way, win-win.

[Mal]

Blue Velvet vs. Amadeus
The Shining vs. Stop Making Sense
Aliens vs. The Princess Bride
Do the Right Thing vs. The Empire Strikes Back

[Irish]

The Shining, Amadeus, and The Princess Bride are three of the most overrated movies of the 80s. For shame, Match Cut.

I can never get a handle on your taste, and thus am always surprised when you & I agree.

(With one coda: I don't know if "Amadeus" is overrated in the same way as the others, mostly because I never hear anyone talking about it.)

[megladon8]

LOVE Amadeus. Really need to watch it again, it has probably been 15 years.

[Idioteque Stalker]

I would quickly vote Amadeus over any movie in this tournament except Do the Right Thing (that would take a bit longer, but I'd still probably go Amadeus most days).

[Peng]

Blue Velvet vs. Amadeus
The Shining vs. Stop Making Sense
Aliens vs. The Princess Bride
Do the Right Thing vs. The Empire Strikes Back

[Idioteque Stalker]

LOVE Amadeus. Really need to watch it again, it has probably been 15 years.

Might you be saying... you love Amadeus more than, say... Blue Velvet? Just pulling a random comparison out of the air.

[Ezee E]

Blue Velvet vs. Amadeus
The Shining vs. Stop Making Sense
Aliens vs. The Princess Bride
Do the Right Thing vs. The Empire Strikes Back

[Ezee E]

If you think Amadeus is overrated, it probably just means it's due for a rewatch.

[Lazlo]

If you think Amadeus is overrated, it probably just means it's due for a rewatch.

Amen. One of my all-time favorites.

[Skitch]

I got the vhs sitting on the to-watch pile. I haven't seen it in years.

[Mal]

I’ve never cared for Amadeus, it doesn’t rock me.

[Idioteque Stalker]

I’ve never cared for Amadeus, it doesn’t rock me.

Oh jeez... lol

[Ivan Drago]

Had no idea this was happening.

Blue Velvet vs. Amadeus
The Shining vs. Stop Making Sense
Aliens vs. The Princess Bride
Do the Right Thing vs. The Empire Strikes Back

[Ezee E]

I’ve never cared for Amadeus, it doesn’t rock me.
Well played

[Idioteque Stalker]

24 hours until Elite Eight voting closes. This is the biggest response we've had, but if there's anyone else who feels like voting, the more the merrier. Having voted in earlier rounds is not a requirement to vote now. PMs are accepted.

After all, The Princess Bride is only mostly dead. We just need a miracle worker.

[Yxklyx]

The Fireman's Ball is fine but I much prefer Loves of a Blonde (from the same period) which is my favorite Forman film.

[Idioteque Stalker]

is fine but I much prefer Loves of a Blonde (from the same period) which is my favorite Forman film.

Watchlisted. Looks good.

The Firemen's Ball - 5
One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest - 7 (due for a rewatch)
Amadeus - 10
The People vs. Larry Flynt - 4
Man on the Moon - 6

[baby doll]

Loves of a Blonde (1965) warm
Taking Off (1971) spicy
One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest (1975) mild
Amadeus (1984) warm
Man on the Moon (1999) cold

I haven't seen The People vs. Larry Flynt since it was in theatres, but I remember liking it at the time.

[Idioteque Stalker]

The Elite Eight is now closed. Here are MC's results:


Blue Velvet vs. Amadeus
The Shining vs. Stop Making Sense
Aliens vs. The Princess Bride (BLOWOUT)
Do the Right Thing vs. The Empire Strikes Back (BLOWOUT)

[Idioteque Stalker]

Voting for the Final Four is now open! Vote now by posting in this thread or sending me a PM.

Amadeus vs. The Shining
Aliens vs. Do the Right Thing


The High and the Low

Each of the Final Four films is devilishly entertaining in its own way, but there's a clear divide between the genre fare of The Shining and Aliens vs. the more prestige-forward Amadeus and Do the Right Thing. (Side note: Amadeus received eleven Oscar nominations and won eight, including Best Picture. Aliens received seven Oscar nominations and won two technical awards. Do the Right Thing received two Oscar nominations and didn't win either. The Shining received no Oscar nominations, but did in fact get nominated twice at the inaugural Razzie Awards -- Worst Actress and *gasp* Worst Director.)

This thread contains a fascinating debate regarding the pleasures/downsides of both high- and low-brow entertainment. As MC hones in on its very favorite films of the 1980s (horror, action, musical biopic, social issues comedic drama), might the high/low dichotomy prove irrelevant?

Interestingly enough, the brackets have decreed both Final Four match-ups to be high vs. low, rather than match-ups of "like films." Will MC geek out on genre films? Will it turn its nose up and take the high road of prestige? Or will it be a mixture of the two? Which movies will make it to the MC Madness Championship, and which will burn in the eternal fires of cinematic damnation?


Find out when voting closes in three days!

[Skitch]

The Shining
Aliens

I want Aliens to go all the way. If its Amadaus vs Do The Right Thing ya'll are just being stubborn lol

[Idioteque Stalker]

If its Amadaus vs Do The Right Thing ya'll are just being stubborn lol

Today I am a stubborn snob.

Amadeus
Do the Right Thing

[Yxklyx]

Amadeus vs. The Shining
Aliens vs. Do the Right Thing

I like that The Shining and Do the Right Thing are diametrically opposed when it comes to weather. The Shining is best watched on a dark, cold, snowy January evening, while Do the Right Thing should be watched on a 90 degree day in August.

[Mal]

The Shining
Do the Right Thing

[Ezee E]

The Shining
Do the Right Thing

[Lazlo]

Amadeus vs. The Shining
Aliens vs. Do the Right Thing

[baby doll]

Amadeus vs. The Shining
Aliens vs. Do the Right Thing

[transmogrifier]

Do the Right Thing.

Couldn't give a shit about the other pairing. I vote Do the Right Thing or Aliens if it wins against either of them in the final.

[Peng]

Aliens vs. Do the Right Thing

[Idioteque Stalker]

24 hours left to vote in the Final Four! This round is quick, and the final round will be as well.

[Mr. McGibblets]

Amadeus vs. The Shining
Aliens vs. Do the Right Thing

[Idioteque Stalker]

Last call!

[Ivan Drago]

Amadeus vs. The Shining
Aliens vs. Do the Right Thing

[Idioteque Stalker]

The Final Four is now closed. Here are MC's results:


Amadeus vs. The Shining
Aliens vs. Do the Right Thing (BLOWOUT)

[Idioteque Stalker]

Voting for the Championship/Losers Bracket is now open! The Losers Bracket match-up is to determine 3rd place. Vote now by posting in this thread or sending me a PM.

Championship
The Shining vs. Do the Right Thing

Losers Bracket
Amadeus vs. Aliens

Voting closes in three days!

[Yxklyx]

The Shining vs. Do the Right Thing

Amadeus vs. Aliens

[Idioteque Stalker]

Championship
The Shining vs. Do the Right Thing

Losers Bracket
Amadeus vs. Aliens

I have a feeling these are going to be close.

[Lazlo]

Championship
The Shining vs. Do the Right Thing

Losers Bracket
Amadeus vs. Aliens

[Skitch]

The Shining
Aliens

[Idioteque Stalker]

Stanley Kubrick shines in the first quarter! Will Spike Lee do the wrong thing and lose?

[Mal]

Do the Right Thing
Aliens

[transmogrifier]

Do the Right Thing
Aliens

[Ezee E]

The Shining
Aliens

[baby doll]

Do the Right Thing
Amadeus

[Dukefrukem]

The correct answer is The Shining and Aliens but I haven't seen Do the Right Thing or Amadeus so my vote doesn't count. :)

Haven't been able to vote much in here because of that issue.

[Idioteque Stalker]

Haven't been able to vote much in here because of that issue.

Madness 2.0 is well into development. My bet is you'll be able to vote more.

[Peng]

The Shining vs. Do the Right Thing

[Mr. McGibblets]

The Shining vs. Do the Right Thing
Amadeus vs. Aliens

[Idioteque Stalker]

You people really love your Aliens. Maybe it's time for a revisit -- it's been ~15 years.

[Skitch]

You people really love your Aliens. Maybe it's time for a revisit -- it's been ~15 years.

Oh man...thats every other year for me. Directors cut all day.

[baby doll]

I haven't seen Aliens since I was in middle school.

[Idioteque Stalker]

24 hours left to vote in the championship/losers bracket!

[Ezee E]

I'm similar to Skitch. I watch Alien and Aliens at least every other year on a minimum. Screw the other ones.

Duke, make it a priority to see Do The Right Thing. I think it stands the test of time despite feeling very 80's at the same time.

[megladon8]

I watch the full Alien series at least twice a year.

[Skitch]

I haven't watched Resurrection in a while. I should see it again. I know its not great, but it has some awesome scenes.

[Dukefrukem]

I'm similar to Skitch. I watch Alien and Aliens at least every other year on a minimum. Screw the other ones.

Duke, make it a priority to see Do The Right Thing. I think it stands the test of time despite feeling very 80's at the same time.

I keep getting distracted with my theme binges.

I have all the Spike Lee stuff setup and ready to watch. But then I got distracted with the Criteron Challenge. Then I got distracted with finishing Agents of Shield. Then, this Madness thing got me embarrassed by how many of these I haven't seen (https://letterboxd.com/dukefrukem/list/embarrassing-i-have-not-seen-these-movies/), then I started watching Agent Carter, then I have two kids....

I'm F@@ked

[Ezee E]

I keep getting distracted with my theme binges.

I have all the Spike Lee stuff setup and ready to watch. But then I got distracted with the Criteron Challenge. Then I got distracted with finishing Agents of Shield. Then, this Madness thing got me embarrassed by how many of these I haven't seen (https://letterboxd.com/dukefrukem/list/embarrassing-i-have-not-seen-these-movies/), then I started watching Agent Carter, then I have two kids....

I'm F@@ked

Luckily, Do The Right Thing is a Criterion, so can fit in there somewhere.

[Dukefrukem]

Luckily, Do The Right Thing is a Criterion, so can fit in there somewhere.

I put it on my list :)
(https://letterboxd.com/dukefrukem/list/the-criterion-challenge-2021/)

[Skitch]

I keep getting distracted with my theme binges.

I have all the Spike Lee stuff setup and ready to watch. But then I got distracted with the Criteron Challenge. Then I got distracted with finishing Agents of Shield. Then, this Madness thing got me embarrassed by how many of these I haven't seen (https://letterboxd.com/dukefrukem/list/embarrassing-i-have-not-seen-these-movies/), then I started watching Agent Carter, then I have two kids....

I'm F@@ked

And all the other parents smile gets bigger. One of us! One of us!

Your 18-year clock only just reset. Mine's at ten. Seriously though, it gets better. Once the diapers are over and they sleep through the night.

[Dukefrukem]

And all the other parents smile gets bigger. One of us! One of us!

Your 18-year clock only just reset. Mine's at ten. Seriously though, it gets better. Once the diapers are over and they sleep through the night.

My 2 week old slept 6 hours through the night last night. He's on track to being better than his sister in that area.

[Idioteque Stalker]

I put it on my list :)
(https://letterboxd.com/dukefrukem/list/the-criterion-challenge-2021/)

Liar

[transmogrifier]

I rewatched Do the Right Thing last year with my wife. It holds up like a motherfucker. It's great to see a novice filmmaker brimming with both cinematic ambition and desperate desire to say something about society, but without having to hide it all in a genre pastiche. (These days, it seems all indie debuts are filmed like a TV pilot, thematically insular and hermetically sealed, and/or attempted "subversions" of genre with little else between the ears)

[Idioteque Stalker]

Voting is now closed. Here are MC's results:

Champion

Do the Right Thing
Directed by Spike Lee
1989

https://www.rnz.co.nz/assets/news/204172/eight_col_img.jpg?1565049448

Entertainment Weekly magazine placed Do the Right Thing at No. 22 on its list of The 25 Most Controversial Movies Ever.

The original script ended with a stronger reconciliation between Mookie and Sal than Lee used in the film, as Sal's reaction was deemed "too nice" as originally written.

Spike Lee campaigned for Robert De Niro to play Sal the pizzeria owner, but De Niro had to decline due to prior commitments. Danny Aiello took the role, and eventually received one of the film's two Oscar nominations.


https://www.furiouscinema.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/do-the-right-thing-1989-03-g.jpg

It comes closer to reflecting the current state of race relations in America than any other movie of our time. - Roger Ebert

Sal is not ready for a new political world, whose dawn Lee sketches out here, in which it is not enough simply to refrain from making overtly racist gestures: omission or erasure is equally insulting. - Peter Bradshaw

It holds up like a motherfucker. - transmogrifier


https://images.static-bluray.com/reviews/19115_1.jpg


Runner-Up

The Shining
Directed by Stanley Kubrick
1980

https://forthefloorandmore.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/featuredimage-780x300.jpg

During production, Kubrick screened David Lynch's Eraserhead to the cast and crew, to convey the mood he wanted to achieve for the film.

The door that Jack chops through with the axe near the end of the film was real, Kubrick originally shot this scene with a fake door, but Nicholson, who had worked as a volunteer fire marshal and a firefighter in the California Air National Guard, tore through it too quickly.

Nicholson was Kubrick's first choice for the role of Jack Torrance; other actors considered included Robert De Niro (who claims the film gave him nightmares for a month), Robin Williams, and Harrison Ford, all of whom met with Stephen King's disapproval.


https://img.cinemablend.com/filter:scale/quill/0/a/3/6/6/f/0a366fbbd65b7c7345cecfb4daf757 7c4d1a3ed0.jpg?mw=600

Again and again, the movie leads us to expect something – almost promises it – and then disappoints us. - Pauline Kael

Stanley Kubrick's production of The Shining, a ponderous, lackluster distillation of Stephen King's best-selling novel, looms as the Big Letdown of the new film season. I can't recall a more elaborately ineffective scare movie. You might say that The Shining, opening today at area theaters, has no peers: Few directors achieve the treacherous luxury of spending five years (and $12 million-$15 million) on such a peerlessly wrongheaded finished product. - Gary Arnold

A perfect storm of teror. - Dukefrukem

Nominated for two Razzie Awards: Worst Actress and Worst Director.


https://sillyfunda.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/elevator-blood-flood-scene-the-shining1.jpg?w=848


Third Place

Aliens
Directed by James Cameron
1986

https://www.slashfilm.com/wp/wp-content/images/aliens-sequel-details.png

I want Aliens to go all the way. - Skitch

I watch the full Alien series at least twice a year. - megladon8

I haven't seen Aliens since I was in middle school. - Baby Doll


The madness is over. For now...

[Skitch]

Taking nothing away from Danny Aiello's acting ability, hes great in everything...I will never understand how any white actor can say the N-word. I couldn't do it. I'm not suggesting it be removed from "actor playing a role" necessarily (I will leave that judgement up to POC), but I personally couldn't do it.

[Yxklyx]

Great #1 and #2. I voted The Shining but Do The Right Thing is also amazing - no idea how Aliens and Amadeus ended up so high. ;)

[Dukefrukem]

Liar

Oh shit. I didn't. LOL. I legitimately thought I did.

[Idioteque Stalker]

I didn't know until recently that The Shining was released to such mixed reception. It's been considered a classic for as long as I can remember.

[Skitch]

I didn't know until recently that The Shining was released to such mixed reception. It's been considered a classic for as long as I can remember.

Blade Runner was widely panned when it came out too.

[baby doll]

I didn't know until recently that The Shining was released to such mixed reception. It's been considered a classic for as long as I can remember.I think this was the case for all of Kubrick's films after the mid-1960s and Spielberg's A.I. as well.

For the record...

Fear and Desire (1953) cold
Killer's Kiss (1955) mild
The Killing (1956) spicy
Paths of Glory (1957) warm
Spartacus (1960) cold
Lolita (1962) mild
Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb warm
2001: A Space Odyssey (1968) spicy
A Clockwork Orange (1971) mild
Barry Lyndon (1975) spicy
The Shining (1980) spicy
Full Metal Jacket (1987) spicy
Eyes Wide Shut (1999) spicy

[Dukefrukem]

So was the Thing.

Pretty much all critics got it wrong in the 80s.

[baby doll]

Ishtar is a good movie.

[Skitch]

Ishtar is a good movie.

Its on my stack of vhs.

[Irish]

Pretty much all critics got it wrong in the 80s.

Nah, they were right, especially about "The Shining," "The Thing," and "Blade Runner, but public taste shifted over the years.

All 3 of those movies have have glaring weaknesses, none of which mattered to two generations who saw them at a very young age, panned and scanned on VHS and cable tv.


Ishtar is a good movie.

:D :D :D

[Idioteque Stalker]

The Killing (1956) spicy
Paths of Glory (1957) warm


There's something you don't see every day. Not that I disapprove or anything -- I love both movies.

[StuSmallz]

I think this was the case for all of Kubrick's films after the mid-1960s and Spielberg's A.I. as well.

For the record...

Fear and Desire (1953) cold
Killer's Kiss (1955) mild
The Killing (1956) spicy
Paths of Glory (1957) warm
Spartacus (1960) cold
Lolita (1962) mild
Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb warm
2001: A Space Odyssey (1968) spicy
A Clockwork Orange (1971) mild
Barry Lyndon (1975) spicy
The Shining (1980) spicy
Full Metal Jacket (1987) spicy
Eyes Wide Shut (1999) spicyAw, only "warm" on Strangelove? It's always been in my top three Kubs, along with 2001 (https://letterboxd.com/stusmallz/film/2001-a-space-odyssey/)& Lyndon...

[transmogrifier]

Nah, they were right, especially about "The Shining," "The Thing," and "Blade Runner, but public taste shifted over the years.

Once a director gets a following, their supporters tend to be very eager to write off flaws in individual movies as either (a) not flaws at all but actually purposefully done but us minions are just too dumb to get it, or (b) oh, shut up about flaws you killjoy you must be fun at parties or you're just a neckbeard or fanboy or snob or whatever ok bye now.

[Dukefrukem]

I'm aware of the Shining flaws, but what are the Things?

[Wryan]

Not enough Wilford Brimley for one.

[baby doll]

Aw, only "warm" on Strangelove? It's always been in my top three Kubs, along with 2001 (https://letterboxd.com/stusmallz/film/2001-a-space-odyssey/)& Lyndon...I haven't seen it in over a decade so I'm probably due for a rewatch. It's much more tightly plotted than anything he made subsequently but it's also less mysterious and therefore less interesting to revisit than, say, Full Metal Jacket, which one could almost read as a self-critique of Paths of Glory's unambivalently anti-war stance and clear-cut morality.

[Yxklyx]

Blade Runner was widely panned when it came out too.

Nah, I don't think it was widely panned - more like a general "meh". Though, there are a couple of versions and I think the one with voice-over narration was hated - I can't stand voice-over narration except for a few cases (like Fight Club).

[baby doll]

Once a director gets a following, their supporters tend to be very eager to write off flaws in individual movies as either (a) not flaws at all but actually purposefully done but us minions are just too dumb to get it, or (b) oh, shut up about flaws you killjoy you must be fun at parties or you're just a neckbeard or fanboy or snob or whatever ok bye now.I can't speak to The Thing, but The Shining has one of the strangest tones of any movie I can think of, and it's often hard to know how much of the film's weirdness is deliberate. The question is: does it work? Maybe not at every moment, but what keeps the film fascinating is that one is never quite sure how to respond to it: it's too funny to take as a straight horror movie and too scary to take as a black comedy.

As for Blade Runner, I'm largely in agreement with Robin Wood on the film's limitations, but whoever said a movie had to be perfect to be worthwhile? Scott's control of tone and the film's visuals are more than enough to reward multiple viewings as far as I'm concerned.

[Skitch]

Nah, I don't think it was widely panned - more like a general "meh". Though, there are a couple of versions and I think the one with voice-over narration was hated - I can't stand voice-over narration except for a few cases (like Fight Club).

Well the one with VO was the one released originally.

And I agree with your latter statement.

[Irish]

I'm aware of the Shining flaws, but what are the Things?

https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/the-thing-1982

Ebert lays it out in ~300 words.

I agree with every single one of his criticisms --- the movie really is a carnival geek show and Bottin's effects overwhelm it --- but then again Ebert's points don't necessarily prohibit one's enjoyment of it as a singular experience.


As for Blade Runner, I'm largely in agreement with Robin Wood on the film's limitations, but whoever said a movie had to be perfect to be worthwhile? Scott's control of tone and the film's visuals are more than enough to reward multiple viewings as far as I'm concerned.

With something like "Blade Runner," I think there's largely no point. Everyone's been there and done that and after 40 years and 7 recuts, you either get into it or you don't.

But Carpenter, Scorsese, and the rest of #filmtwitter's Saints of Cinema could use a good critical drubbing every now and again.

[StuSmallz]

I haven't seen it in over a decade so I'm probably due for a rewatch. It's much more tightly plotted than anything he made subsequently but it's also less mysterious and therefore less interesting to revisit than, say, Full Metal Jacket, which one could almost read as a self-critique of Paths of Glory's unambivalently anti-war stance and clear-cut morality.Hmm; it's been a while since I've watched Strangelove, but I'm not sure if I'd say it's much more tightly plotted than, say, something like Clockwork Orange (http://matchcut.artboiled.com/showthread.php?7234-Stu-Presents-1967-1980-A-History-Of-New-Hollywood!&p=596433&viewfull=1#post596433) (otherwise, I think the scene between General Turgidson and his mistress would've ended up on the cutting room floor)... although it is more focused than FMJ, which I've always felt suffered a lot from having a disjointed overall narrative, so it's a bit of a split decision for me.

[Dukefrukem]

https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/the-thing-1982

Ebert lays it out in ~300 words.

I agree with every single one of his criticisms --- the movie really is a carnival geek show and Bottin's effects overwhelm it --- but then again Ebert's points don't necessarily prohibit one's enjoyment of it as a singular experience.



With something like "Blade Runner," I think there's largely no point. Everyone's been there and done that and after 40 years and 7 recuts, you either get into it or you don't.

But Carpenter, Scorsese, and the rest of #filmtwitter's Saints of Cinema could use a good critical drubbing every now and again.

Ugh. The original Thing stinks. And Alien really isn't the same film. So I couldn't disagree with him more. As for the characters being forced to be alone, yeh I can see that.

[Skitch]

I like The Thing From Another World...I'm not about to even listen to anyone shit on Carpenter's The Thing.

Sidenote: I saw a meme of The Thing cast that said "Played Among Us before it was cool" and that really made me laugh.

[baby doll]

But Carpenter, Scorsese, and the rest of #filmtwitter's Saints of Cinema could use a good critical drubbing every now and again.Just because annoying people like a movie doesn't necessarily mean it's bad.

[baby doll]

Hmm; it's been a while since I've watched Strangelove, but I'm not sure if I'd say it's much more tightly plotted than, say, something like Clockwork Orange (http://matchcut.artboiled.com/showthread.php?7234-Stu-Presents-1967-1980-A-History-Of-New-Hollywood!&p=596433&viewfull=1#post596433) (otherwise, I think the scene between General Turgidson and his mistress would've ended up on the cutting room floor)... although it is more focused than FMJ, which I've always felt suffered a lot from having a disjointed overall narrative, so it's a bit of a split decision for me. I wouldn't describe A Clockwork Orange as tight (the plot depends heavily on conicidence), but it's undoubtedly the most schematic and thesis-driven of Kubrick's late films, and consequently for me the least interesting. In contrast, the looser, more episodic plotting of Full Metal Jacket doesn't seem jerryrigged to demonstrate a predetermined thesis. It also results in the spectator having less of an emotional attachment to any of the characters, which suits the film's ambivalent attitude toward warfare in general.

[Idioteque Stalker]

I wouldn't describe A Clockwork Orange as tight (the plot depends heavily on conicidence), but it's undoubtedly the most schematic and thesis-driven of Kubrick's late films, and consequently for me the least interesting. In contrast, the looser, more episodic plotting of Full Metal Jacket doesn't seem jerryrigged to demonstrate a predetermined thesis. It also results in the spectator having less of an emotional attachment to any of the characters, which suits the film's ambivalent attitude toward warfare in general.

Thematically I agree with everything you say here (very nice defense of FMJ in particular), but I still count A Clockwork Orange among my favorite Kubrick movies because of the style/tone (still seems totally unique a half century later) and Malcolm McDowell's all-timer performance.

[Irish]

Just because annoying people like a movie doesn't necessarily mean it's bad.

Ceaselessly hyping one title or another won't magically make them good, either. But that's beside the point? See trans' reply. I was more referencing a viewer attitude that brooks no criticism toward their favorites, warranted or not.

[baby doll]

Ceaselessly hyping one title or another won't magically make them good, either. But that's beside the point? See trans' reply. I was more referencing a viewer attitude that brooks no criticism toward their favorites, warranted or not.The problem is knowing when a criticism is warranted, which is not always easy since there's no universal standard for judging movies. This is especially true of late Kubrick given how weird the films are (James Naremore has said of Jack Nicholson's performance in The Shining that it "is so deliberately strange and radical that it challenges my ability to judge whether it's good or bad. [...] I think some of his scenes are brilliant... but I also think some of what he does is silly"), although it seems safe to say that anyone who criticizes The Shining for not being as suspenseful as Stephen King's novel--or Full Metal Jacket for not being Platoon--is being willfully obtuse.

[Irish]

The problem is knowing when a criticism is warranted, which is not always easy since there's no universal standard for judging movies.

Easy. It's warranted when someone has an opinion and can form a coherent argument around it, as Ebert did in his review of "The Thing." "Blade Runner" can be critiqued on a variety levels, most of them obvious, and I think it's probable every criticism of it than can be made has been made.

"Full Metal Jacket" is one of Kubrick's least interesting works (and also his laziest, most skewed adaptation, and tbh I sorta hate him for it). Comparing it to "Platoon" is a gimme, and kinda boring so many years on.

I like the sound of Naremore on Nicholson. but he also sounds like he's hedging too much.

I usually avoid talking about Kubrick because the discussions about him are almost always technical, the cult around him is bizarre, and personally, he became much less interesting to me once he became more of an revered institution than a working filmmaker.

[baby doll]

Easy. It's warranted when someone has an opinion and can form a coherent argument around it, as Ebert did in his review of "The Thing." "Blade Runner" can be critiqued on a variety levels, most of them obvious, and I think it's probable every criticism of it than can be made has been made.

"Full Metal Jacket" is one of Kubrick's least interesting works (and also his laziest, most skewed adaptation, and tbh I sorta hate him for it). Comparing it to "Platoon" is a gimme, and kinda boring so many years on.

I like the sound of Naremore on Nicholson. but he also sounds like he's hedging too much.

I usually avoid talking about Kubrick because the discussions about him are almost always technical, the cult around him is bizarre, and personally, he became much less interesting to me once he became more of an revered institution than a working filmmaker.Making a coherent argument isn't the same thing as making a persuasive argument. I can't say whether Ebert's reasons for disliking The Thing are valid as I haven't seen the film, but on paper at least, it sounds like a perfectly reasonable argument: The effects are gory and cool but the film would be more effective if he felt a stronger emotional attachment to the characters (as was the case in Alien, itself an uncredited remake of The Thing from Another World). The underlying assumption here is that Carpenter wanted the spectator to care about what happens to the characters, which is not an unreasonable assumption for this kind of film, although one could theoretically make the counter-argument that the pleasure spectators take in watching the film's gross-out effects as a series of attractions or show-stoppers would be impaired if the spectator felt too much sympathy for the figures onscreen dying in agony. On the other hand, if someone were to argue that The Shining is a failure because they couldn't sympathize with the characters (in contrast with King's novel, where even Jack remains largely sympathetic as a good but weak man under the influence of evil spirits), the validity of this argument is not self-evident as there's considerable internal evidence in the film--not least of all in the performances--that Kubrick was aiming for a kind of Brechtian estrangement effect. In other words, the validity of a criticism is not dependent on one's ability to argue it (one could make a coherent argument for all sorts of absurd positions: e.g., The Shining fails as a musical because it lacks musical numbers), but on whether one is justified in attributing a specific intention to the film's makers, and since those intentions are ultimately unknowable to the spectator, it's often difficult to decide whether a particular criticism is valid or invalid.