Ten-Years-Later Match Cut Consensus - 2010 [Archive]

Skitch

05-13-2020, 06:02 PM

1. Scott Pilgrim vs the World
2. Tron: Legacy
3. Inception
4. The American
5. Ip Man 2
6. The Social Network
7. Black Swan
8. Brooklyn's Finest
9. The Ghost Writer
10. The A-Team

Honorable mentions (in no order): Book of Eli, Predators, Unstoppable, The Wolfman, The Crazies, Kick-Ass.

Now breakdown my thoughts...

Its always a bitch making a top list. For me when I really feel the gun to my head to pick, "rewatchability" becomes a big issue. Is Ip Man 2 better than Black Swan or better constructed than Social Network, in the pantheon of all cinema? Of course not, but I've watched it at least 3 more times than either. That says something to me.

Scott Pilgrim is (imo) the best all around film. I adore Inception...but that very tail end wobble annoys the shit out of me, and the stuff with his wife is depressing so it hurts rewatchability. Tron: Legacy is one of my favorite films ever...but that dodgy younging-CGI is undeniable. I can overlook it to enjoy the film, but its a negative mark. The American is one of the most underrated films ever. To be honest, 1-4 could be interchangeable depending on the day. And I'm an 80s kid. I grew up on A-Team, and that movie is fucking fun as hell. I doesn't deserve awards or anything, but I needed a tenth lol.

HM: These films are all watchable and entertaining blu-rays on my shelf. Predators I respect because it may have the best cold open of any film ever. Unstoppable I'm partial to because I remember the event and actually used to work through where the first half hour of that film is shot so I recognize all those places. I have never really understood the hate on Wolfman, especially the directors cut. I think its a fine film. I've never seen the original Crazies but I've watched the remake plenty. Kick-Ass is delightful Nic Cage.

Ezee E

05-13-2020, 07:46 PM

1.Social Network
2. Shutter Island
3. Inception
4. Black Swan
5. Exit Through the Gift Shop
6. Senna
7. Book of Eli
8. 127 Hours
9. I Saw the Devil
10. The Town

Ezee E

05-13-2020, 07:48 PM

Let me know if I'm off on Senna

Skitch

05-13-2020, 07:55 PM

Oh shit...I Saw The Devil...hmmm...HM.

Skitch

05-13-2020, 07:57 PM

Let me know if I'm off on Senna

You're not.

baby doll

05-13-2020, 08:07 PM

Now breakdown my thoughts...

Its always a bitch making a top list. For me when I really feel the gun to my head to pick, "rewatchability" becomes a big issue.Ditto. I was tempted to put MistÃ©rios de Lisboa even higher on my list but I've only seen it once (it's four and a half hours long). By comparison, I've seen Copie conforme four times, Uncle Boonmee, The Ghost Writer, Film socialisme, Greenberg, and Hereafter three times, Arrietty the Borrower and Post Mortem twice, and both versions of Carlos once each.

Dukefrukem

05-13-2020, 08:18 PM

I have I Saw the Devil as the 2nd best film in 2011.

Dukefrukem

05-13-2020, 08:20 PM

Easy #1 for me but a bad year for movies. Rare 4 comedies in my top 10. Shocker.

1. Inception
2. I Saw the Devil
3. Scott Pilgrim vs. the World
4. 127 Hours
5. The Fighter
6. Super
7. Hot Tub Time Machine
8. The Crazies
9. Toy Story 3
10. 13 Assassins

So... fixed.

Skitch

05-13-2020, 08:29 PM

Ditto. I was tempted to put MistÃ©rios de Lisboa even higher on my list but I've only seen it once (it's four and a half hours long). By comparison, I've seen Copie conforme four times, Uncle Boonmee, The Ghost Writer, Film socialisme, Greenberg, and Hereafter three times, Arrietty the Borrower and Post Mortem twice, and both versions of Carlos once each.

I really need to see The Ghost Writer again. I watched it once when it came out, blu has been on my shelf forever.
Do you have a review of The American? Have we discussed this before? I know we don't agree on lots of films but that one seems like one that would be up your alley.

baby doll

05-13-2020, 08:42 PM

I really need to see The Ghost Writer again. I watched it once when it came out, blu has been on my shelf forever.
Do you have a review of The American? Have we discussed this before? I know we don't agree on lots of films but that one seems like one that would be up your alley.I wrote about it on my blog when it came out. The short version is that I found the plot ridiculous with twists you can see coming a mile away and some very clunky dialogue.

Skitch

05-13-2020, 09:00 PM

Ah well. Time to start a thread about underrated films lol

transmogrifier

05-13-2020, 10:29 PM

Confessions
Shutter Island
Bedeviled
Winter's Bone
Rare Exports: A Christmas Tale
13 Assassins
Toy Story 3
Inception
Despicable Me
The Yellow Sea

Dukefrukem

05-13-2020, 10:49 PM

Shutter Island

This is SHOCKING to me.

Lazlo

05-13-2020, 10:51 PM

1. The Social Network
2. Black Swan
3. Inception
4. Toy Story 3
5. Blue Valentine
6. Senna
7. Shutter Island
8. Meek's Cutoff
9. Let Me In
10. Tangled

transmogrifier

05-13-2020, 10:56 PM

This is SHOCKING to me.

Me too. I have it as #2. :)

Skitch

05-13-2020, 11:01 PM

I also would not have pegged trans as a Shutter Island fan.

Grouchy

05-14-2020, 12:54 AM

This is SHOCKING to me.
Not a fan?

I want to take the opportunity to see a couple I missed. Can we put a deadline on saturday? Friday?

Dukefrukem

05-14-2020, 02:06 AM

No I'm a fan. But I remember MC panning it, as being eye rolling, despite Leo's performance.

I need to rewatch it.

Skitch

05-14-2020, 02:19 AM

I enjoy the film enough but called its premise from the poorly designed intro. No judgements, it's still a fine film, just doesnt (imo) ring as something trans would dig.

Pop Trash

05-14-2020, 03:27 AM

1. Greenberg
2. Let Me In
3. The Social Network
4. Inception
5. Black Swan
6. Meek's Cutoff
7. True Grit
8. Exit Through the Gift Shop
9. The Ghost Writer
10. MacGruber

Pop Trash

05-14-2020, 03:48 AM

No I'm a fan. But I remember MC panning it, as being eye rolling, despite Leo's performance.

I need to rewatch it.

I need to rewatch it too. I remember thinking the script was kind of ridiculous and implausible even for the '40s / '50s when it took place. It also has an exposition dump of an ending with Ben Kingsley's character literally drawing the plot on a chalkboard. It's the kind of thing if Shyamalan did it, critics would have tore it to shreds, but Scorsese does it and it's like "oh it's his Val Lewton homage! 5 stars!" I also remember being annoyed that people acted like it was his first horror film but Cape Fear did it first and better. I guess you could split hairs and say Cape Fear is a "thriller" rather than "horror" but it feels like a horror movie through and through.

BUT it's been a decade and I generally love Scorsese, so I should give it another whirl.

Stay Puft

05-14-2020, 05:01 AM

1. Certified Copy (Abbas Kiarostami)
2. Poetry (Lee Chang-dong)
3. Uncle Boonmee Who Can Recall His Past Lives (Apichatpong Weerasethakul)
4. Meek's Cutoff (Kelly Reichardt)
5. The Four Times (Michelangelo Frammartino)
6. Nostalgia for the Light (Patricio GuzmÃ¡n)
7. Norwegian Wood (Tran Anh Hung)
8. Exit Through the Gift Shop (Banksy)
9. The Arbor (Clio Barnard)
10. Winter's Bone (Debra Granik)

Peng

05-14-2020, 05:05 AM

Shutter Island is one of the three Scorsese adaptations where I already knew the original film/book when I watched his films, so either I feel he adapts/expands well (The Departed, Hugo) or I don't have plot hangup that comes from experiencing the story the first time (Shutter Island, and to a lesser extent also Hugo).

And as much as I like him, Shyamalan wouldn't have done it with the same cinematic fever dream intensity of so many striking, nightmarish sequences (Scorsese's most exhilaratingly, purely capital-D Directing achievement alongside Raging Bull and Kundun). Which in retrospect is the only way to pierce through the book's plot -- which I enjoy reading but had BIG misgiving upon hearing it's being adapted, wondering how what I accept through proses on pages is not going to look derivative/unsatisfying when on screen (and of course it still seems that way to many) -- by going straight to its core (the protagonist's mindset) and build from there.

MadMan

05-14-2020, 06:43 AM

MadMan

05-14-2020, 06:43 AM

I liked Shutter Island a lot. Scott Pilgrim barely misses my list.

Peng

05-14-2020, 07:06 AM

Huh I like this year, I just hate that The King's Speech won Best Picture. Lame. My list could always be better but it is what it is.

1. The Social Network
2. Inception
3. Black Swan
4. Monsters
5. Valhalla Rising
6. The Fighter
7. Tucker & Dale vs Evil
8. Winter's Bone
9. The Illusionist
10. Hesher

Not to continue opening our can of worm into this thread, but just wondering that if you still go by US release date, since Valhalla Rising is 2009 by imdb, then should both Tucker and Dale and Hesher count as 2011? Especially when they are the same situation as The Hurt Locker's 2008-2009 split, in that they toured the festival in 2010, but were released in US on 2011?

MadMan

05-14-2020, 10:02 AM

Not to continue opening our can of worm into this thread, but just wondering that if you still go by US release date, since Valhalla Rising is 2009 by imdb, then should both Tucker and Dale and Hesher count as 2011? Especially when they are the same situation as The Hurt Locker's 2008-2009 split, in that they toured the festival in 2010, but were released in US on 2011?

I can't win haha. Give me a minute.

MadMan

05-14-2020, 10:06 AM

Alright let me try again heh. Disregard the previous list.

1. The Social Network
2. Inception
3. Black Swan
4. Monsters
5. The Fighter
6. Winter's Bone
7. The Illusionist
8. Insidious
9. Scott Pilgrim vs. the World (hey it's on there now wahoo)
10. The Ghost Writer

I should probably rewatch Toy Story 3 at some point. I last saw it years ago.

MadMan

05-14-2020, 06:16 PM

I am kind of surprised that more people liked The Ghost Writer. I was not a big fan of Meek's Cutoff.

baby doll

05-14-2020, 07:17 PM

I am kind of surprised that more people liked The Ghost Writer.Along with Paul Verhoeven, Polanski is probably the greatest living practitioner of classical Hollywood filmmaking. It's instructive to compare the stylishness of a film like The American, where the fancy visual style feel imposed on the plot from without, with the style of Polanski's film where every stylistic choice is motivated by the narrative.

dreamdead

05-14-2020, 08:07 PM

1. Certified Copy
2. Uncle Boonmee Who Can Recall His Past Lives
3. Poetry
4. Another Year
5. Exit Through the Gift Shop
6. The Social Network
7. Carlos
8. The Illusionist
9. Blue Valentine
10. Scott Pilgrim

Those top five are impeccable. Fincher's is edited to a tee, Assayas's uses New Order with such style, and the bottom three deliver emotionality with visual aplomb as well.

Skitch

05-14-2020, 08:19 PM

Along with Paul Verhoeven, Polanski is probably the greatest living practitioner of classical Hollywood filmmaking. It's instructive to compare the stylishness of a film like The American, where the fancy visual style feel imposed on the plot from without, with the style of Polanski's film where every stylistic choice is motivated by the narrative.

I put both in my top ten and I cannot argue against this point.

MadMan

05-14-2020, 08:47 PM

Along with Paul Verhoeven, Polanski is probably the greatest living practitioner of classical Hollywood filmmaking. It's instructive to compare the stylishness of a film like The American, where the fancy visual style feel imposed on the plot from without, with the style of Polanski's film where every stylistic choice is motivated by the narrative.

I never saw The American. I heard mixed things. I do like Paul Verhoeven and need to see more from him. Polanski has made some great and good flicks over the years, that's for sure.

transmogrifier

05-14-2020, 10:02 PM

I enjoy the film enough but called its premise from the poorly designed intro. No judgements, it's still a fine film, just doesnt (imo) ring as something trans would dig.

I’m a huge fan of feverish filmmaking that complements the narrative/themes and generates genuine emotional connection. To me, that’s the alchemy of cinema. It’s easy to be all Michael Bay or Guy Ritchie about things, but it’s much more difficult to balance kinetics with emotional or narrative-driven throughlines that pay off at the end. My top 3 for this year all do that.

Skitch

05-14-2020, 10:14 PM

I’m a huge fan of feverish filmmaking that complements the narrative/themes and generates genuine emotional connection. To me, that’s the alchemy of cinema. It’s easy to be all Michael Bay or Guy Ritchie about things, but it’s much more difficult to balance kinetics with emotional or narrative-driven throughlines that pay off at the end. My top 3 for this year all do that.

I'm watching Wolf of Wall Street for 2nd time, a movie I didn't love, and man...Leo is a magnet.

Dukefrukem

05-14-2020, 11:19 PM

It's the kind of thing if Shyamalan did it, critics would have tore it to shreds, but Scorsese does it and it's like "oh it's his Val Lewton homage! 5 stars!"

This is how I remember it perfectly summed up.

Pop Trash

05-15-2020, 04:19 PM

I never saw The American. I heard mixed things. I do like Paul Verhoeven and need to see more from him. Polanski has made some great and good flicks over the years, that's for sure.

I'll forever remember The American as the first movie I watched at the theater (remember them?) after finally getting glasses after being in denial about my vision for a few months. Beautiful cinematography only made stronger by my then new crisp focus.

Grouchy

05-16-2020, 02:46 AM

transmogrifier

05-16-2020, 06:30 AM

I'm sorry, but this is a serious question because the part in bold confused me. Is the list meant to be backwards, with Scott Pilgrim as #1?

I do believe he is just taking the top five's quality for granted and moving onto describing 6-10, meaning the list is correct as is.

MadMan

05-16-2020, 07:01 AM

I'll forever remember The American as the first movie I watched at the theater (remember them?) after finally getting glasses after being in denial about my vision for a few months. Beautiful cinematography only made stronger by my then new crisp focus.I will get around to it at some point I'm sure.

dreamdead

05-16-2020, 10:25 AM

I do believe he is just taking the top five's quality for granted and moving onto describing 6-10, meaning the list is correct as is.

What transmogrifier writes is true. For me, the Kiarostami is the only stone-cold "classic" of my top ten, but that's more of a matter of the other top four (Uncle Boonmee, Poetry, Another Year, Exit...) not getting a rewatch since 2012 or so. I'm hoping to do a mini-marathon of Mother, Poetry, and Burning this summer to offset the k-dramas, so that will hopefully help me better situate them in the memory.

transmogrifier

05-16-2020, 11:53 AM

What transmogrifier writes is true. For me, the Kiarostami is the only stone-cold "classic" of my top ten, but that's more of a matter of the other top four (Uncle Boonmee, Poetry, Another Year, Exit...) not getting a rewatch since 2012 or so. I'm hoping to do a mini-marathon of Mother, Poetry, and Burning this summer to offset the k-dramas, so that will hopefully help me better situate them in the memory.

I never got back to you about your Korea trip because I assumed that was off now? Korea still has the mandatory two weeks quarantine for all international visitors....

dreamdead

05-16-2020, 12:04 PM

I never got back to you about your Korea trip because I assumed that was off now? Korea still has the mandatory two weeks quarantine for all international visitors....

Yeah, we canceled the South Korea trip a few weeks back, though we'd known it was off since mid-March. We're hoping to reschedule the visit next summer and do some rudimentary Korean language lessons outside of Atlanta this fall, though that aspect is of course dependent on whether lessons are still on in a possibly-online environment.

The rewatch of some of our formative Korean cinema entries is part of this desire. We're hoping to stream Secret Mission based off of this recommendation (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/07/at-home/coronavirus-free-korean-films.html). We got to The World of Us, which is on Amazon Prime for us in the U.S., and it was indeed haunting.

Grouchy

05-16-2020, 04:30 PM

Literally zero love for Incendies so far.

Grouchy

05-16-2020, 08:45 PM

Ok, here's mine:

1. The Social Network
2. Black Swan
3. Shutter Island
4. True Grit
5. Toy Story 3
6. Another Year
7. Black Death
8. The Ghost Writer
9. The American
10. Scott Pilgrim vs the World

I've already tallied but I'll give it another day to see if there are any late joiners to the party.

MadMan

05-17-2020, 03:19 AM

Literally zero love for Incendies so far.

I haven't gotten to it yet.

baby doll

05-17-2020, 03:29 AM

I haven't gotten to it yet.I would recommend checking out Villeneuve's better early films Un 32 aoÃ»t sur la terre and MaelstrÃ¶m instead.

Idioteque Stalker

05-17-2020, 01:55 PM

1. Certified Copy
2. Exit Through the Gift Shop
3. Scott Pilgrim Vs. The World
4. Black Swan
5. Uncle Boonmee Who Can Recall His Past Lives
6. Beginners
7. Blue Valentine
8. The Ghost Writer
9. The Four Times
10. The Social Network

Did a double feature of Uncle Boonmee at Film Forum followed by Certified Copy at Lincoln Plaza (RIP)--what a great day at the movies. Strong year. I feel drawn to but haven't seen Poetry, The Arbor, Nostalgia for the Light, Never Let Me Go, and Mysteries of Lisbon.

MadMan

05-17-2020, 07:20 PM

I would recommend checking out Villeneuve's better early films Un 32 aoÃ»t sur la terre and MaelstrÃ¶m instead.

Oh I want to see those too. The last major Americanized film he made that I have to see from him is Prisoners.

Grouchy

05-17-2020, 11:40 PM

Prisoners is amazing. I haven't seen Incendies or any of the previous ones either, I just thought it was curious it had no huge fans here.

baby doll

05-18-2020, 12:48 AM

Villeneuve rated:

Un 32 aoÃ»t sur la terre (1998) warm
MaelstrÃ¶m (2000) warm
Polytechnique (2009) warm
Incendies (2010) mild
Enemy (2013) cold
Blade Runner 2049 (2017) cold

Pop Trash

05-18-2020, 03:09 AM

Blade Runner 2049 (2017) cold

baby doll 2020 cold

FIFY

Ezee E

05-18-2020, 03:52 AM

I just watched Prisoners the other day. Really shows what a director can do to an okay script.

MadMan

05-18-2020, 05:44 AM

Villeneuve rated:

Un 32 aoÃ»t sur la terre (1998) warm
MaelstrÃ¶m (2000) warm
Polytechnique (2009) warm
Incendies (2010) mild
Enemy (2013) cold
Blade Runner 2049 (2017) cold

I loved Enemy. Blade Runner 2049 is near great.

Grouchy

05-18-2020, 06:04 AM

I've seen Blade Runner 2049 a couple of times since theaters. It's a brilliant science fiction film. The original is a classic, sure, but the sequel has nothing to be ashamed for in comparison.

StuSmallz

05-18-2020, 07:45 AM

I just watched Prisoners the other day. Really shows what a director can do to an okay script.Well, if that director has the right script for his style, which I felt that Villeneuve absolutely didn't with a relatively straightforward potboiler like Sicario, as the extraction sequence through JuÃ¡rez was the only scene where I felt much of any actual tension, as his signature detached style was often a round peg for that square hole, and it felt at times like he was trying too hard to distance us from the characters and the situations they were trapped in, quite literally; there was that scene where Blunt & Brolin's characters are having an argument after the shootout at the border crossing, and the whole thing plays out in a wide shot the whole time, where we never actually get to see the characters' expressions up close in a scene that pretty much demands it, and all I could think was "Denis, what are you doing?". I think that he's shown his style is far better suited to contemplative, thought-provoking Sci-Fi full of big ideas, like 2049 or Arrival (https://letterboxd.com/stusmallz/film/arrival-2016/) (which is currently my favorite film from him), which is why I'm pretty eagerly looking forward to his spin on Dune, should it be able to keep a sufficiently pandemic-free date to land on this year, hopefully.

Grouchy

05-19-2020, 12:34 AM

Some huge ties so far. A couple more lists would be welcome.

transmogrifier

05-19-2020, 01:53 AM

Some huge ties so far. A couple more lists would be welcome.

Just count my one twice.

Dukefrukem

05-19-2020, 01:54 AM

Just count my one twice.

Or just give Inception #1 and work your way down from there.

baby doll

05-19-2020, 02:38 AM

Or just give Inception #1 and work your way down from there.Have you written any about the film that would serve as a concise summary as to why you're so invested in it?

Skitch

05-19-2020, 02:44 AM

Or ties at level? Like 1 1 1 , 4 4, 6 7 etc

Grouchy

05-19-2020, 03:00 AM

Or ties at level? Like 1 1 1 , 4 4, 6 7 etc
If there are no more votes I'll do that, sure, but a tie at #1 seems disappointing to me for some reason.

Skitch

05-19-2020, 03:08 AM

If there are no more votes I'll do that, sure, but a tie at #1 seems disappointing to me for some reason.

I agree, just looking for solutions.

Peng

05-19-2020, 05:09 AM

What I did for ties (and coincidentally similar to what Spinal did, when I checked his threads for past results) is 1) go by which one having more mentions 2) if they equal in both score and mentions, go by which one placing the highest in a list. 3) if their highest placements in a list are the same, declare it a true tie.

Spinal:

(In the event of a tie, the film mentioned by the most people was given preference. When the same number of people mentioned it, the film with the highest average ranking was given preference. After that, I gave up and just called it a tie.)

For some ideas. Although ties are exciting too.

Dukefrukem

05-19-2020, 12:08 PM

Have you written any about the film that would serve as a concise summary as to why you're so invested in it?

No, but I should. I think as far as I got was a brief Letterboxd review. (https://letterboxd.com/dukefrukem/film/inception/)

It resonates with me on so many levels with respect to "family", like no other modern film has before. Like climbing to a summit for years, to finally reach you goal. It's like Cobb had to move mountains just to see his kids again. I dunno.. I get misty thinking about it. But then again, I'm a sucker for father son/kids movies which is why I like Real Steel so much. Well... not as much as Inception.

Dukefrukem

05-19-2020, 12:09 PM

1) go by which one having more mentions

Yay Inception wins as it still has the largest thread on MC ever (I think... or maybe it's the Dark Knight)

Ezee E

05-19-2020, 12:31 PM

Yay Inception wins as it still has the largest thread on MC ever (I think... or maybe it's the Dark Knight)

If I knew how to sort by rating, I would.

Peng

05-19-2020, 12:44 PM

Yay Inception wins as it still has the largest thread on MC ever (I think... or maybe it's the Dark Knight)

Not going to spoil myself by looking the lists up, but it's probably Inception vs The Social Network. Unlike 2009's Basterds vs A Serious Man though, in which the top two have a clear favorite, I have no idea where the score tallying will fall on this one.

Dukefrukem

05-19-2020, 01:33 PM

If I knew how to sort by rating, I would.

Just click on replies

Idioteque Stalker

05-19-2020, 01:37 PM

Glancing through, I figured Certified Copy would win.

Ezee E

05-19-2020, 02:25 PM

Just click on replies

I want highest average rating. Went off topic

Grouchy

05-19-2020, 02:38 PM

HONORABLE MENTIONS:

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Wmxaz8vd4GU/XXpuz5JEy-I/AAAAAAAAWeA/Cy3RRoyVXowttuoY35SRlJ2OzdneHI a1wCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/UncommonDistinctAustraliankelp ie-size_restricted.gif
The Illusionist (Sylvain Chomet)

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/JdURrPdLtwn0KQj_IxrYIPD9zEbux4 MscyZnVwa1-OekKJXj2DGNJaU5-KoEQzga9kO-h3xotun4jLCKxuin_nI9QRZaElE_HO OnmwymoyOAgiJjM9tuRw
The Fighter (David O. Russell)

https://i.imgur.com/MWzUvkM.gif
Confessions (Tetsuya Nakashima)

Peng

05-19-2020, 02:44 PM

2010's Illusionist is the animated film.

Grouchy

05-19-2020, 02:49 PM

Damn, you're right. Sorry.

baby doll

05-19-2020, 05:35 PM

No, but I should. I think as far as I got was a brief Letterboxd review. (https://letterboxd.com/dukefrukem/film/inception/)

It resonates with me on so many levels with respect to "family", like no other modern film has before. Like climbing to a summit for years, to finally reach you goal. It's like Cobb had to move mountains just to see his kids again. I dunno.. I get misty thinking about it. But then again, I'm a sucker for father son/kids movies which is why I like Real Steel so much. Well... not as much as Inception.Interesting that you focus so much on the film's themes, as opposed to its structure and parallel editing, as that seems like it would be the obvious basis on which to make a case for the film. The problem I have with Nolan's films in general and Inception in particular is that the characters don't seem to exist apart from their function in the plot, either pushing the protagonist towards his goal (e.g., DiCapprio's kids as motivator and ultimate boon) or delaying the film from ending prematurely (the traumatic memory of the dead wife--also a motif in Shutter Island--which provides a "darkest hour" crisis just before the climax). Of course that's true of all narrative films, but Nolan has never been a graceful enough filmmaker to hide the seams. One is always acutely aware of the mechanism of the plot pushing the characters around instead of having the illusion that the characters' traits and desires are propelling the narrative, making it hard for me to care very deeply about the story. If this is more true of Inception than Nolan's other films, this is in large part due to the conventions of the heist movie, where the Fordist approach to pulling a job--in which each member of the gang is like an assembly line worker trained to perform one specific task--tends to underline the degree to which any member of the gang is replaceable.

Mysterious Dude

05-19-2020, 06:00 PM

I like the hallway scene.

Dukefrukem

05-19-2020, 06:52 PM

Interesting that you focus so much on the film's themes, as opposed to its structure and parallel editing, as that seems like it would be the obvious basis on which to make a case for the film. The problem I have with Nolan's films in general and Inception in particular is that the characters don't seem to exist apart from their function in the plot, either pushing the protagonist towards his goal (e.g., DiCapprio's kids as motivator and ultimate boon) or delaying the film from ending prematurely (the traumatic memory of the dead wife--also a motif in Shutter Island--which provides a "darkest hour" crisis just before the climax). Of course that's true of all narrative films, but Nolan has never been a graceful enough filmmaker to hide the seams. One is always acutely aware of the mechanism of the plot pushing the characters around instead of having the illusion that the characters' traits and desires are propelling the narrative, making it hard for me to care very deeply about the story. If this is more true of Inception than Nolan's other films, this is in large part due to the conventions of the heist movie, where the Fordist approach to pulling a job--in which each member of the gang is like an assembly line worker trained to perform one specific task--tends to underline the degree to which any member of the gang is replaceable.

Don't get me wrong. The complexity of the layers adds additional interest for the desire to rewatch. It's not complicated for the sake of being complicated. There's an actual rationale, a point to the complexity, and I like looking for new things every time I watch it. There is also some heavy, heavy exposition dialog, like in most Nolan films, that comes off very amateurish. So while I don't disagree that the characters are not as complex as they come across. Or his eye for action is subpar (compared to the Camerons or Chad Stahelskis of Hollywood). Or the dialog isn't very well vetted... I can ignore all of it because of the film's ambition and entertainment. It excels in the ladder area... and I'm not going to shame a film for not having PTA dialog. Or have Malick cinematography.... It works in the exact areas it needs to be completely satisfying and entertaining.

Skitch

05-19-2020, 06:58 PM

... I can ignore all of it because of the film's ambition ...
Oh I'm here for this point

... and I'm not going to shame a film for not having PTA dialog. Or have Malick cinematography....

PTA excels at dialogue. Lacks ambition/entertainment in other areas of filmmaking.
Malick slays cinematography. Lacks ambition/entertainment in other areas of filmmaking.

baby doll

05-19-2020, 07:45 PM

Don't get me wrong. The complexity of the layers adds additional interest for the desire to rewatch. It's not complicated for the sake of being complicated. There's an actual rationale, a point to the complexity, and I like looking for new things every time I watch it. There is also some heavy, heavy exposition dialog, like in most Nolan films, that comes off very amateurish. So while I don't disagree that the characters are not as complex as they come across. Or his eye for action is subpar (compared to the Camerons or Chad Stahelskis of Hollywood). Or the dialog isn't very well vetted... I can ignore all of it because of the film's ambition and entertainment. It excels in the ladder area... and I'm not going to shame a film for not having PTA dialog. Or have Malick cinematography.... It works in the exact areas it needs to be completely satisfying and entertaining.Ambition isn't the same as accomplishment, and as a rule, I find narrative films more entertaining, not less, when I believe in and care about the characters. The problem with Inception, as with so many of Nolan's films, is that it's all theory and no practice: Nolan hasn't succeeded in making the characters seem real.

I'm curious what you understand to be the rationale for the multiple layers. I saw it more as a device to prevent the story from ending prematurely (more levels means more obstructions means a longer run time) and to showoff Nolan's virtuosity, outdoing Griffith by crosscutting between five lines of action instead of four (theoretically, there could've been six or seven, although it's questionable whether spectators could keep all of them straight).

baby doll

05-19-2020, 07:49 PM

PTA excels at dialogue. Lacks ambition/entertainment in other areas of filmmaking.
Malick slays cinematography. Lacks ambition/entertainment in other areas of filmmaking.Anderson and Malick definitely do not lack for ambition.

Dukefrukem

05-19-2020, 07:57 PM

Ambition isn't the same as accomplishment, and as a rule, I find narrative films more entertaining, not less, when I believe in and care about the characters. The problem with Inception, as with so many of Nolan's films, is that it's all theory and no practice: Nolan hasn't succeeded in making the characters seem real.

I'm curious what you understand to be the rationale for the multiple layers. I saw it more as a device to prevent the story from ending prematurely (more levels means more obstructions means a longer run time) and to showoff Nolan's virtuosity, outdoing Griffith by crosscutting between five lines of action instead of four (theoretically, there could've been six or seven, although it's questionable whether spectators could keep all of them straight).

1. Said technology exists (Inception)
2. Technology boundaries pushed until consequences ensued. (A dream within a dream ultimately leading to limbo)
3. A scramble to resolve the issues to an end

It's no different than films like the Matrix, or Terminator, the only difference is really is the "layers" are more defined.

You know,.... if Neo took the blue pill, the Matrix would only be 20 minutes long.

Skitch

05-19-2020, 08:13 PM

Anderson and Malick definitely do not lack for ambition.

I didnt say they do. They have loads of ambition. But I see lots of reviews (not pointing at MC) that shit in Nolans mouth but give those guys a pass because their ambition is enough to overlook their shortcomings.

baby doll

05-19-2020, 08:49 PM

I didnt say they do. They have loads of ambition. But I see lots of reviews (not pointing at MC) that shit in Nolans mouth but give those guys a pass because their ambition is enough to overlook their shortcomings.I'm not sure how useful it is compare these three filmmakers, given how different their ambitions are and the diverse ways in which they fall short of them. In fact, I think Malick's films after the '70s suffer from the exact opposite problem as Nolan's films: Malick's later films are shapeless as narratives and lack vivid characterizations but individual scenes and sequences are often stunning in their emotional impact due to Malick's mastery of montage and his juxtapositions of sound and image, whereas Nolan makes tightly plotted movies that are emotionally dead and visually monotonous.

transmogrifier

05-19-2020, 10:33 PM

I didnt say they do. They have loads of ambition. But I see lots of reviews (not pointing at MC) that shit in Nolans mouth but give those guys a pass because their ambition is enough to overlook their shortcomings.

PTA is 20 times the director Nolan is. His cinematography, plotting, dialogue, and work with actors are all vastly superior. Nolan has better commercial instincts. PTA has never directed an action scene, Nolan has directed several terrible ones and several competent ones, so lets call that a tie.

Wryan

05-19-2020, 11:09 PM

PTA did not have Daniel Day-Lewis throw bowling pins around for 9 hours a day for you to call him an action scene neophyte.

Ivan Drago

05-19-2020, 11:22 PM

I'm too late for this, aren't I?

Skitch

05-19-2020, 11:23 PM

I'm not sure how useful it is compare these three filmmakers, given how different their ambitions are and the diverse ways in which they fall short of them.

I think its fair enough when the overall theme is roughly "filmmakers that are awesome at some stuff and not others and should still get forgiveness"

In fact, I think Malick's films after the '70s suffer from the exact opposite problem as Nolan's films: Malick's later films are shapeless as narratives and lack vivid characterizations but individual scenes and sequences are often stunning in their emotional impact due to Malick's mastery of montage and his juxtapositions of sound and image

I feel thats a quantifiably accurate statement.

whereas Nolan makes tightly plotted movies that are emotionally dead and visually monotonous.

...and thats an opinion.

PTA is 20 times the director Nolan is. His cinematography, plotting, dialogue, and work with actors are all vastly superior.
I feel thats an opinion. If you feel that way, okie-dokie. Not being condescending, I just wouldn't engage it.

Nolan has better commercial instincts.

That I would call a fact.

PTA has never directed an action scene, Nolan has directed several terrible ones and several competent ones, so lets call that a tie.

I guess mathematically 0=-3+3, but never trying shouldn't equal trying and failing and trying and succeeding. (again this part is opinion again)

Skitch

05-19-2020, 11:26 PM

Look, I'm not some big Nolan defender around here, I just think its annoying how his haters act like hes one of the worst directors working.

Its fine to dislike his work. But my god if you think hes the worst you need to see more movies.

Edit: and I would say the same (and I HAVE) to anyone saying that of any of the three directors we've been discussing.

baby doll

05-19-2020, 11:41 PM

I think its fair enough when the overall theme is roughly "filmmakers that are awesome at some stuff and not others and should still get forgiveness"Not all flaws are equally forgivable. In Malick's case, I'm willing to cut him some slack on narrative construction and characterization because I find his films engaging and singular on a moment-by-moment basis, whereas I'm less forgiving of Nolan because I don't find his films fun to watch: They're all scaffolding and no building. That's not to say he's the worst filmmaker in the world; I just don't find his films interesting, which is why I stopped watching them.

Skitch

05-19-2020, 11:46 PM

Not all flaws are equally forgivable. In Malick's case, I'm willing to cut him some slack on narrative construction and characterization because I find his films engaging and singular on a moment-by-moment basis, whereas I'm less forgiving of Nolan because I don't find his films fun to watch: They're all scaffolding and no building. That's not to say he's the worst filmmaker in the world; I just don't find his films interesting, which is why I stopped watching them.

Thats totally fair and I have no problem with anything in that quote. NONE.

Peng

05-20-2020, 12:48 AM

I like Nolan more than PTA and Malick, and even then I'm struggling to think of the latter two as lacking ambition, unless the specific definition of ambition here is making complex-than-the-norm blockbusters.

Dukefrukem

05-20-2020, 01:44 AM

The specific definition of ambition is letting Sean Penn ramble for 60 minutes to get 30 seconds of dialog.

Peng

05-20-2020, 01:55 AM

I mean, anything can sound like that if you simplify it enough. "A not-Bay-braindead blockbuster that still needs to have like almost 60 pure minutes of hand-holding explaining and explaining? Some ambition."

baby doll

05-20-2020, 02:33 AM

The specific definition of ambition is letting Sean Penn ramble for 60 minutes to get 30 seconds of dialog.It ain't the process that counts, it's the results.

Skitch

05-20-2020, 02:49 AM

It ain't the process that counts, it's the results.

Unless the studio interferes with the results HEYOHHHH crossover fight! :D *goes to bed*

transmogrifier

05-20-2020, 04:06 AM

The best thing about Nolan is the shit fights he inspires online. Not bad for a dude who made his best movie 20 years ago.

transmogrifier

05-20-2020, 04:11 AM

Then again, PTA made his best film 23 years ago and Malick made his best film 42 years ago. Shit, I just played myself.

Ezee E

05-20-2020, 04:36 AM

If the three release a movie, and no idea what I'm getting into, I'm seeing Nolan's first.

Grouchy

05-20-2020, 05:03 AM

# 21. Let Me In

https://www.cinemascomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/let-me-in-1.jpg

You have to invite me in.

Directed by Matt Reeves
USA
A bullied young boy befriends a young female vampire who lives in secrecy with her guardian.

Awards
Best Performance by a Young Actor (ChloÃ« Grace Moretz) and Best Horror/Thriller Film - Saturn Awards
Breakthrough Film Artist - Austin Film Critics Association & Central Ohio Film Critics Association
Best Newcomer (ChloÃ« Grace Moretz) - Empire Awards
Best Supporting Actor (Richard Jenkins) - Fangoria Chainsaw Awards
Best Horror Movie, Actress & Screenplay - Fright Meter Awards
Best Horror Movie - IGN Summer Awards

"Cloverfield director Matt Reeves has been charged with filling Alfredson's considerable boots, and he does a fine job of not steering too far from the original, while also putting his own stamp on the vampire tale". -- Kaleem Aftab

"In retrospect, I'm glad I haven't seen the first film. It seems many find it impossible to truly appreciate what this film achieves and does. I hope to not have this issue when going in reverse". -- Raiders

Grouchy

05-20-2020, 05:20 AM

#20. I Saw the Devil

https://cnet1.cbsistatic.com/img/c-QOwP4Dgf30Pn2i2Xr3B-uOVcc=/980x551/2020/02/10/9adb2bbb-25ca-4d32-b5b2-a43630572dc9/i-saw-the-devil-2010.jpg

I will kill you when you are in the most pain. When you're in the most pain, shivering out of fear, then I will kill you. That's a real revenge. A real complete revenge.

Directed by Kim Jee-Woon
South Korea
A secret agent exacts revenge on a serial killer through a series of captures and releases.

Awards
Best Editor (Nam Na-young), Asian Film Awards
Best Foreign Language Film, Austin Film Critics Association
Daesang Grand Award for Best Film, Baek Sang Awards
Best Music & Best Cinematography, Blue Dragon Awards
Golden Raven for International Competition, Brussels International Festival of Fantasy Film

"I Saw the Devil" is a masterpiece in all aspects, featuring sublime direction and script-writing, elaborate cinematography and editing, and one of the most shocking endings ever to appear on film", -- Panos Kotzathanasis, Asian Movie Pulse

Grouchy

05-20-2020, 05:35 AM

# 19. True Grit

https://cinematopo.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/truegrit.jpg?w=584

You must pay for everything in this world, one way and another. There is nothing free except the grace of God.

Directed by Joel & Ethan Coen
USA
A stubborn teenager enlists the help of a tough U.S. Marshal to track down her father's murderer.

Awards
Best Cinematography (Roger Deakins), BAFTA Film Awards
Movie of the Year, AFI Awards
Top Box Office of the American Society of Composers (Carter Burwell)
Best Supporting Performance (Hailee Steinfeld), Awards Circuit Community
Best Cinematography (Roger Deakins), Boston Society of Film Critics

Without comparing the film to John Wayne's original of 1969, the Coen's version stands on its own with noteworthy performances by Jeff Bridges and newcomer Hailee Steinfeld. -- Kiko Martinez, San Antonio Current

After seeing it a second time in theaters, I'm 100% convinced its quite better than the original. Although I still think The Duke>The Dude in the title role. -- Madman

Grouchy

05-20-2020, 05:48 AM

# 18. Greenberg

https://metrograph.com/uploads/films/Greenberg_2010_5-1572627403-726x388.jpg

All the men out here dress like children and the kids dress like superheroes.

Directed by Noah Baumbach
USA
A man from Los Angeles, who moved to New York years ago, returns to L.A. to figure out his life while he house-sits for his brother. He soon sparks with his brother's assistant.

Awards
Best Screenplay (Noah Baumbach), Global Nonviolent Film Festival
Top Independent Film, National Board of Review

"Greenberg is Ben Stiller's Punch Drunk Love". -- Giles Hardie, Sydney Morning Herald

"Okay, I'm gonna call it: Best American film of the year". -- baby doll

Grouchy

05-20-2020, 06:04 AM

# 17. Poetry

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/rL1BMG3NAtEtgnwCDKsbgTBQz96BL-Eajyl1W0yZQj2kLxEvlP6MYuogpDpQ 4jCsuJ4fno9bZ6Zrpent1aLLUD1qeL Z_JSM5QOPRujz4fQc_6_Jp_9XpRg-2CC_m-ubBWQ
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-dVlrTtHZg-M/T-pqL1TABpI/AAAAAAAABzk/OF2lDv-bhAw/s1600/Poetry.jpg

How is it over there?
How lonely is it?
Is it still glowing red at sunset?
Are the birds still singing on the way to the forest?

Directed by Lee Chang-dong
South Korea
A sixty-something woman, faced with the discovery of a heinous family crime and in the early stages of Alzheimer's disease, finds strength and purpose when she enrolls in a poetry class.

Awards
Achievement in Directing (Lee Chang-dong) & Best Performance (Yun Jeong-hie), Asia Pacific Screen Awards
Best Director & Screenwriter (Lee Chang-dong), Asian Film Awards
Best Director (Lee Chang-dong), Baek Sang Awards
Best Actress (Yun Jeong-hie), Blue Dragon Awards
Best Film & Best Screenplay, Buil Film Awards

It is a picture of something inexpressibly gentle and sad, something heartbreaking and absolutely normal, but something stirred up by a violent, alien incursion. -- Peter Bradshaw, The Guardian

transmogrifier

05-20-2020, 06:05 AM

If the three release a movie, and no idea what I'm getting into, I'm seeing Nolan's first.

In terms of their output right now, PTA >>>> Nolan >>>>>>>>>> Malick

Grouchy

05-20-2020, 06:16 AM

#16. Another Year

https://r3.abcimg.es/resizer/resizer.php?imagen=https%3A%2F %2Fstatic3.abc.es%2Fmedia%2Fpe liculas%2F000%2F031%2F267%2Fan other-year-2.jpg&nuevoancho=620&medio=abc

I'm very much a glass-half-full kind of girl. But it's tricky, because... I meet these older men who want somebody younger, and that's great, because I fit the bill. But... when they find out that... you know, I'm not as young as they thought, they don't want to know. My looks work against me.

Directed by Mike Leigh
UK
A look at four seasons in the lives of a happily married couple and their relationships with their family and friends.

Awards
Best Actress (Lesley Manville), AARP Movies for Grownups
Best Foreign Feature Film, Amanda Awards, Norway
Special Mention of the Ecumenical Jury at Cannes for Mike Leigh
Best Supporting Actress (Lesley Manville) and Best Ensemble Cast, Chlotrudis Awards
Best Foreign Film, French Syndicate of Cinema Critics

Another year, another 100 things to celebrate and mourn-and another film that makes me appreciate how good cinema can make me feel. -- Amie Simon, Three Imaginary Girls

Grouchy

05-20-2020, 06:27 AM

#15. Carlos

https://babel36.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/carlos1.jpg?w=640

My name is Carlos. You may have heard of me.

Directed by Olivier Assayas
France / Germany
The story of Venezuelan revolutionary Ilich RamÃ*rez SÃ¡nchez, who founded a worldwide terrorist organization and raided the 1975 OPEC meeting.

Awards
Best Miniseries or Motion Picture Made for Television, Golden Globes
Most Promising Actor (Edgar RamÃ*rez), CÃ©sar Awards
Best Television Film or Series, Globes de Cristal Awards
Best Lead Performance (Edgar RamÃ*rez), Indiewire Critics' Polls
Best Actor (Edgar RamÃ*rez), International Cinephile Society Awards

The term "epic" often gets bandied around to describe movies that don't really fit the description. But Olivier Assayas' Carlos is the real deal... -- RenÃ© Rodriguez, Miami Herald

Grouchy

05-20-2020, 06:28 AM

In terms of their output right now, PTA >>>>>>>>> Nolan >>>>> Malick
Subtly fixed.

Grouchy

05-20-2020, 06:39 AM

#14. Blue Valentine

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1KCxsbMwgyE/UCel0JnYm4I/AAAAAAAAA1s/1jVRMEdIAIg/s640/blue-valentine-michelle-williams-ryan-gosling.JPG
Tell me how I should be. Just tell me. I'll do it.

Directed by Derek Cianfrance
USA
The relationship of a contemporary married couple, charting their evolution over a span of years by cross-cutting between time periods.

Awards
Honorable Mention of the Awards Circuit Community Awards
Most Promising Filmmaker (Derek Cianfrance), Chicago Film Critics Association
Best Actor (Ryan Gosling), Chlotrudis Awards
International Debut Award (Derek Cianfrance), GÃ¶teborg Film Festival
Best Actor/Actress (Ryan Gosling & Michelle Williams), Online Cinema Awards

Blue Valentine has a rare emotional intensity. There is no way to prepare for its final frames, inevitable as they are. -- Rafer Guzman, Newsday

Blue Valentine deserves the comparisons to Cassavetes. I mean, damn. Raw, undiluted emotion. - B-Side

Grouchy

05-20-2020, 06:52 AM

#13. Winter's Bone

https://vanavision.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/winters-bone-debra-granik-vanavision-400x240@2x.jpg

You always have scared me.
That's cuz you're smart.

Directed by Debra Granik
US
An unflinching Ozark Mountain girl hacks through dangerous social terrain as she hunts down her drug-dealing father while trying to keep her family intact.

Awards
Movie of the Year, AFI Awards
Best Woman Director & Achievement (Debra Granik), Best Breakthrough Performance (Jennifer Lawrence), Alliance of Women Film Journalists
Best Film, Amazonas Film Festival
Honorable Mention at the Awards Circuit Community Awards
C.I.C.A.E. Award, Berlin Film Fesitval

A rewarding, richly detailed exploration of the strength of character required when confronted by ugly truths. -- Jim Schembri, The Age

There's a lot to like about this movie if you're a fan of film noirs. The difference between this and something like Brick which is also a sort of film noir, is that Winter's Bone doesn't seem to be making it too obvious that it's using that type of structure. -- Ezee E

transmogrifier

05-20-2020, 07:39 AM

Subtly fixed.

In terms of their best movies:

Boogie Nights > Days of Heaven > Memento

In terms of their most overrated movies:

The Master >>>>>>>>>>>> Tree of Life = The Dark Knight

In terms of hair:

PTA >>>>> Nolan >>>>>>> Malick

In terms of alphabetical order:

PTA >>>>>>>>>>> Malick > Nolan

Man, PTA is killing it!

Peng

05-20-2020, 07:54 AM

I got 2/8 so far. Surprised True Grit didn’t do better.

Peng

05-20-2020, 08:23 AM

As for the Nolan/PTA/Malick side-topic, using my average scores of their filmography as one metric turn out to be PTA (8.44) > Nolan (8.4) > Malick (7.9). But in term of optics, I always find myself indifferent to watching another PTA until I actually watch them and find most from really good to great. And Malick is really hurt from the three film stretch of Knights of Cup, Voyage of Time, and Song to Song, or else his average would put him as my #1.

MadMan

05-20-2020, 09:24 AM

I don't even remember posting about True Grit. But yes I did like it better than the original.

TGM

05-20-2020, 11:22 AM

If the three release a movie, and no idea what I'm getting into, I'm seeing Nolan's first.

Nolan's first, PTA's second, then skipping Malick. :p

Ezee E

05-20-2020, 04:01 PM

Nolan's first, PTA's second, then skipping Malick. :p

This is correct.

I don't think I've seen a Malick movie since Tree of Life.

Skitch

05-20-2020, 04:19 PM

This is correct.

I don't think I've seen a Malick movie since Tree of Life.

I don't think I've seen a Malick movie I've liked. I blind bought ToL because it was new for a dollar at a surplus store lol.

I just realized I have Knight of Cups on my "to watch" shelf for same reason. :/

Dukefrukem

05-20-2020, 04:48 PM

I remember renting Tree of Life at a hotel VoD system, which wasn't cheap, and I remember the feeling of anger after I watched it.

Ezee E

05-20-2020, 04:52 PM

There's moments of greatness in all of the Malick movies I've seen, but I never understood the love for Tree of Life's meandering. Give me Days of Heaven or Badlands over anything else of his. Thin Red Line and New World each have moments of greatness too, but I'm not wanting to ever rewatch those two.

Lazlo

05-20-2020, 06:50 PM

Every Malick movie except for Knight of Cups is good or great.

Skitch

05-20-2020, 07:10 PM

Pop Trash

05-20-2020, 07:19 PM

Every Malick movie except for Knight of Cups is good or great.

Amen. A Hidden Life is the best film of 2019. A year that also included Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, Parasite and The Irishman fwiw.

If I went to the multiplex (remember those?) and the option was a new Malick, a new PTA, or a new Nolan and I knew zilch about them and read zero reviews. Didn't even know the title. I would go Malick, PTA, Nolan in that order. Obviously, I'd love to see all three of them. Inherent Vice specifically is shockingly boringly directed for a film by such an acclaimed maverick. So many scenes of people sitting in rooms talking with MCU shot/reverse shot set-ups. But I like The Master and Phantom Thread just fine.

Skitch

05-20-2020, 07:32 PM

Inherent Vice specifically is shockingly boringly directed for a film by such an acclaimed maverick.

...another blind buy sitting on my shelf lol

TGM

05-20-2020, 07:33 PM

It's not his best work, but I still enjoyed Inherent Vice. *shrug*

baby doll

05-20-2020, 08:05 PM

By director:

Malick
Badlands (1973) spicy
Days of Heaven (1978) spicy
The Thin Red Line (1998) warm
The New World (2005) warm
The Tree of Life (2011) warm
To the Wonder (2012) warm

Anderson
Hard Eight (1996) warm
Boogie Nights (1997) spicy
Magnolia (1999) spicy
Punch-Drunk Love (2002) spicy
There Will Be Blood (2007) warm
The Master (2012) warm
Phantom Thread (2017) warm

Nolan
Memento (2000) mild
Insomnia (2002) cold
Batman Begins (2005) cold
The Prestige (2006) cold
The Dark Knight (2008) cold
Inception (2010) mild
The Dark Knight Rises (2012) cold

baby doll

05-20-2020, 08:56 PM

I, admittedly, have not seen a lot of Malick. Half of Thin Red Line (turned off), Brave New World was beautiful to look at I guess, and Tree of Life.

Mentally I kind of put him in same camp with John Waters. I'm not their biggest fan in the world, but I recognize that they are doing original art that is definitely their vision, and for that I root for them.You might like Badlands and Days of Heaven better since those films have a particularity reminiscent of Flannery O'Connor, whereas the later films (or at least those I've seen) are, for better or for worse, movies made by a guy who's read a lot of Heidegger (and occasionally translated Heidegger into English)--a fact that accounts for both the films' sensuous immediacy and their abstraction, which tends to preclude historical specificity, characters, and narrative development in favour of timeless archetypes (e.g., his treatment of Pocahontas not as a historical figure who can be named in the dialogue but as the personification of the Weltgeist).

Skitch

05-20-2020, 08:59 PM

I've had no reason to not see them. They've been the highest talked about since I ever heard his name. I just haven't come across them. I will.

StuSmallz

05-21-2020, 07:48 AM

In terms of their output right now, PTA >>>> Nolan >>>>>>>>>> MalickEh, regarding PTA (https://letterboxd.com/stusmallz/tag/pta/reviews/) vs. Nolan (https://letterboxd.com/stusmallz/tag/nolan/films/) specifically, when it comes to their most recent efforts, I'm definitely in the latter's corner, as I feel Dunkirk is one of his best movies, as well as the best movie I've seen from 2017, period, while I felt Phantom Thread was somewhat overrated in general. I mean, don't get me wrong, it was pretty good on the whole, but I still felt that maybe Anderson took the criticisms that There Will Be Blood was overly bombastic too much to heart (criticisms that I mostly disagree with, as it's the best film I've seen from him so far), and he decided to over-correct in his next colloboration with DDL as a response, as Thread just felt too... restrained in its overall sensibilities to ignite the sort of passion in me that it has with a lot of other people. I'd say that even the most striking scene in the film, the one where Woodcock hallucinates his mother watching over him on his sickbed, isn't as effective as it should've been, because the sharp turn it took into such pseudo-supernatural imagery clashed pretty jarringly with the extremely subdued romantic drama the film had been up to that point. Not saying that I never enjoy tonal whiplashes in a movie, but that one didn't quite do it for me, unfortunately.

MadMan

05-22-2020, 12:50 AM

I like all three of the directors everyone is discussing and I have owned movies from each one of them: Inception, Memento, Badlands and Magnolia.

Grouchy

05-24-2020, 06:08 AM

#10. 13 Assassins

https://criticvid.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/13_assassins.jpg?w=825&h=360&crop=1

No mercy! There's no samurai code or fair play in battle! No sword? Use a stick. No stick? Use a rock. No rock? Use your fists and feet! Lose your life, but make the enemy pay!

Ruling is convenient, but only for rulers. The people must live to serve.

Directed by Takashi Miike
Japan
A group of assassins come together for a suicide mission to kill an evil lord.

Awards
Best Production Designer (Yuji Hayashida), Asian Film Awards
Best Cinematography (Nobuyasu Kita), Best Lighting, Best Art Direction (Yuji Hayashida), Best Sound (Jun Nakamura)
Best Foreign Film, Las Vegas Film Critics Society Awards
Best Cinematography (Nobuyasu Kita), Best Supporting Actor (Goro Inagaki), Best Director (Takashi Miike), Mainichi Film Concours
Top Five Foreign Language Films from the National Board of Review, USA

It's classic samurai action movie, and one of the best the genre has to offer in years. Miike shows a veteran's sure hand in the first half, showing his grasp on dramatic shifts that he so rarely gets credit for. Then he cranks the pace to 11 in that 50 minute set piece.-- number8

13 Assassins looks at honour from many angles, without becoming simplistic. Ichii hasn't lost his edge after all. -- Paul Byrnes

Grouchy

05-24-2020, 06:32 AM

#12. The Ghost Writer

https://cinemadreamer.files.wordpress. com/2010/04/the-ghost-writer-trailer-1.jpg?w=584

A less equable man than I might start to feel your questions impertinent.

Directed by Roman Polanski
France / Germany / UK
A ghost writer, hired to complete the memoirs of a former British Prime Minister, uncovers secrets that put his own life in jeopardy.

Awards
Best Director (Roman Polanski), Berlin Film Festival
Best Director, Best Music (Alexandre Desplat), Best Editing (HervÃ© de Luze), Best Adapted Screenplay (Robert Harris and Roman Polanski), CÃ©sar Awards
Best Original Score for a Thriller (Alexandre Desplat), International Film Music Critics Awards
Best Actor (Pierce Brosnan), Irish Film and TV Awards
Most Underrated Film, Internet Film Critic Society

Polanski knows the rules of the thriller upside and down, and he has an amazing control of the audience - he doesn't cheat, he doesn't aim for shocks, he trusts their intelligence and he manages to make the only thrilling thriller I've seen in recent years. -- Grouchy

Whether or not Polanski fully grasps the moral of his own excellent film remains to be seen. -- Peter Bradshaw, The Guardian

Grouchy

05-24-2020, 06:43 AM

#11. Meek's Cutoff

https://static.filmin.es/images/media/5399/1/still_0_3_790x398.jpg

Workin' like niggers, once again.

Directed by Kelly Reichardt
US
Settlers travelling through the Oregon desert in 1845 find themselves stranded in harsh conditions.

Awards
Producers Award (Anish Savjani), Independent Spirit Awards
Best Director (Kelly Reichardt), GijÃ³n International Film Festival
SIGNIS Award (Kelly Reichardt), Venice Film Festival
Best Western Drama Screenplay (Jonathan Raymond), Western Writers of America
Invisible Woman Award (Michelle Williams), Women Film Critics Circle Awards

Meek's Cutoff could be the most understated, and historically accurate, horror film in history. It's both the scariest and most poetic film of the year. -- Felicia Feaster, Charleston City Paper

Grouchy

05-24-2020, 07:16 AM

#9. Shutter Island

https://lamenteesmaravillosa.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/daniels-con-su-esposa-768x361.jpg

Which would be worse - to live as a monster, or to die as a good man?

Directed by Martin Scorsese
USA
In 1954, a U.S. Marshall investigates the disappearance of a murderer who escaped the hospital for the criminally insane.
Best Art Direction (Dante Ferretti), Circuit Community Awards
Dario Penne for dubbing Ben Kingsley, Gran Premio Internazionale del Doppiaggio
Best Actor (Leonardo Di Caprio), Italian Online Movie Awards
Best Scream-play (Laeta Kalogridis), Scream Movie Awards
Best Production Design (Dante Ferretti), San Diego Film Critics Society Awards

I seem to expect a lot more from Scorsese. Maybe it's my problem and not the movie's, but it made this a big disappointment. One thing I can say for sure - I never felt for the main character. I didn't feel the reality of his conflict, I just saw him as a tool in the middle of a psychological thriller. -- Grouchy (I LOVE THIS MOVIE NOW)

Gorgeously lurid, with a strong undercurrent of genuine melancholy and a sense of loss and regret infused into every scene. -- transmogrifier

Part gothic horror and part Hitchcockian nightmare, Shutter Island is bold, atmospheric and hugely entertaining. -- Nikki Baughan

Rico

05-24-2020, 07:20 AM

I'm super late....

1. Tucker and Dale vs Evil
2. Scott Pilgrim vs. the World
3. 13 Assassins
4. The Social Network
5. Toy Story 3
6. The Runaways
7. Easy A
8. Super
9. Kick-Ass
10. I Saw the Devil

Grouchy

05-24-2020, 07:30 AM

#7. Toy Story 3

https://cinefilos2016.files.wordpress. com/2018/03/img_0563.jpg

Now Woody, he's been my pal for as long as I can remember. He's brave, like a cowboy should be. And kind, and smart. But the thing that makes Woody special, is he'll never give up on you... ever. He'll be there for you, no matter what.

Directed by Lee Unkrich
USA
The toys are mistakenly delivered to a day-care center instead of the attic right before Andy leaves for college, and it's up to Woody to convince the other toys that they weren't abandoned and to return home.

Awards
Best Animated Feature Film, Best Song (Randy Newman), Academy Awards
Best Animated Film, Golden Globes
Best Animated Feature Film, BAFTA Awards
Best Animated Film, Saturn Awards
Tokyo Anime Award of the Year for Lee Unkrich

It feels like an updated polished version of The Brave Little Toaster with similar climaxes (a lot of Pixar staff also worked on Toaster). -- Watashi

It takes a kind of genius to combine a children's movie for grown-ups and a grown-up's movie for children in one glittering digimated package, yet the folks at Pixar have done it time and again. -- Anthony Quinn, Independent (UK)

Grouchy

05-24-2020, 07:37 AM

I'm super late....

1. Tucker and Dale vs Evil
2. Scott Pilgrim vs. the World
3. 13 Assassins
4. The Social Network
5. Toy Story 3
6. The Runaways
7. Easy A
8. Super
9. Kick-Ass
10. I Saw the Devil
DUDES. I was on a roll but this vote changes EVERYTHING. What shall I do?

EDIT: All right, I counted it in and made the appropriate changes.

Grouchy

05-24-2020, 08:12 AM

#8. Exit Through the Gift Shop

https://i.blogs.es/14d91d/ettgs_002/1366_2000.jpg

I used to encourage everyone I knew to make art; I don't do that so much anymore.

Directed by Bansky
UK
Following the style of some of the world's most prolific street artists, an amateur filmmaker makes a foray into the art world.

Awards
Outstanding Achievement in Editing & Non-Fiction Filmmaking, Cinema Eye Honors Awards
Best Documentary, Independent Spirit Awards
Best Documentary, Oklahoma Film Critics Circle Award
Best Documentary, Best First Feature, TIFF Awards
Best Documentary, Indiewire Critic's Poll

Bansky exposes the con job that is modern art for what it is. -- Roger Moore, Movie Nation

Peng

05-24-2020, 08:17 AM

I watched Meek's Cutoff for the first time yesterday. Didn't crack my top 10, but it's around #20, and may be my favorite Reichardt yet. (Need to rewatch Certain Women to make sure though)

Grouchy

05-24-2020, 08:31 AM

#6. Uncle Boonmee Who Can Recall His Past Lives

https://i.blogs.es/040cc3/monoboonme-ok/1366_2000.jpg

I couldn't have experienced this if I hadn't mated with a monkey ghost.

Directed by Apichatpong Weerasethakul (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0917405)
Thailand
Dying of kidney disease, a man spends his last, somber days with family, including the ghost of his wife and a forest spirit who used to be his son.

Awards
Best Film, Asian Film Awards
Best Film from Cahiers du CinÃ©ma
Palme d'Or at the Cannes Film Festival
Best Film, Sitges Fantastic Film Festival
Yoga Awards for Worst Producer

It's amazing how Weerasethakul makes his character feel so alive and fully rounded despite spending relatively little time developing them. I credit his wonderful ability for creating moods with the soundtrack and environments- the incessant chirping crickets and birds in the forest, the low rumbling sound in the mysterious cave- which helps one feel with the characters. -- StanleyK

As is to be expected, Weerasethakul frequently abandons the story for trancelike contemplations of nature, but never before in his work has the device felt more purposeful -- Ben Sachs, Chicago Reader

Grouchy

05-24-2020, 08:49 AM

#5. Certified Copy

https://i0.wp.com/www.theclassics.co/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/cri_000000323129.jpg?fit=891%2 C500&ssl=1

If we were a bit more tolerant of each other's weaknesses, we'd be less alone.

Directed by Abbas Kiarostami
France / Italy
In Tuscany to promote his latest book, a middle-aged British writer meets a French woman who leads him into the village of Lucignano.

Awards:
Best Actress (Juliette Binoche), Award of the Youth (Abbas Kiarostami), Cannes
Best Actress (Juliette Binoche), Hawaii Film Critics Association
Kosnorama Award, Trondheim International Film Festival
Best Film, Valladolid International Film Festival
Best Foreign Language Film, San Francisco Film Critics Circle

The basic plot - a man and a woman traveling and talking - is reminiscent of Richard Linklater's Before Sunrise/Before Sunset films, but the way in which Certified Copy calls into question the nature of reality is more akin to Inception.-- James Berardinelli

Grouchy

05-24-2020, 09:07 AM

#4. Scott Pilgrim vs. the World

https://i1.wp.com/marvin.com.mx/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Marvin_2019_Scott-Pilgrim.jpg?resize=759%2C500&ssl=1

Directed by Edgar Wright
UK
Scott Pilgrim must defeat his new ex-girlfriend's seven evil exes in order to win her heart.

Awards:
Best Director (Edgar Wright), Empire Awards
Best Comic Book Movie & Best Fight Scene of the Year, Scream Awards
Best Title Sequence, Online Film & Television Association
Best Actor (Michael Cera), Satellite Awards

Full of fresh, sharp touches and nonchalantly brash performances, Scott Pilgrim vs. the World consistently hits the sweet spot. -- Tom Charity, CNN

Grouchy

05-24-2020, 09:22 AM

#3. Black Swan

https://img.vixdata.io/pd/jpg-large/es/sites/default/files/b/black_swan_satoshi_2018.jpg

Directed by Darren Aranofsky
USA
A committed dancer struggles with her sanity after winning the lead role in a production of Tchaikovsky's "Swan Lake".

Awards
Best Actress (Natalie Portman), Academy Awards
Best Performance (Natalie Portman), Golden Globes
Best Actress (Natalie Portman), BAFTA Awards
Best Film, Rondo Hatton Classic Horror Film Award
Marcello Mastroianni Best Actress Award (Mila Kunis), Venice Film Festival

...I'm the only one less interested in boobies and more interested in whether or not she turns into a freaking swan??? -- Mara

Full of sex, drugs, catfights, violence, hallucinations and even some choice girl-on-girl action. What more could you possibly want from a ballet movie? -- Jim Schembry, The Age

Grouchy

05-24-2020, 09:38 AM

#2. Inception

https://img.europapress.es/fotoweb/fotonoticia_20150606095824_102 4.jpg

What is the most resilient parasite? Bacteria? A virus? An intestinal worm? An idea. Resilient... highly contagious. Once an idea has taken hold of the brain it's almost impossible to eradicate. An idea that is fully formed - fully understood - that sticks; right in there somewhere.

Directed by Christopher Nolan
USA / UK
A thief who steals corporate secrets through the use of dream-sharing technology is given the inverse task of planting the idea into the mind of a C.E.O.

Awards
Best Cinematography (Wally Pfister), Best Sound & Visual Effects, Academy Awards
Best American Film, Danish Film Awards
Best Film, Empire Awards UK
Best International Films, Rembrandt Awards
Outstanding Models, Miniatures & Compositing, Visual Effects Society Awards

This endlessly fascinating swirl of a film could have come only from Nolan, who blends the cerebral twistiness of Memento (his thriller that moves backward in time) with the spectacular action of his Batman megahit, The Dark Knight .. Caryn James, Newsday

Grouchy

05-24-2020, 09:59 AM

#1. The Social Network

https://cdn-3.expansion.mx/dims4/default/d88a95e/2147483647/strip/true/crop/328x230+0+0/resize/800x561!/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcherry-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2F media%2F2010%2F10%2F05%2Falumn os-harvar-pelicula.jpg

If you guys were the inventors of Facebook, you would have invented Facebook.

Directed by David Fincher
USA
Mark Zuckerberg creates the social network that would be later known as Facebook. He is sued by the twins that claim he stole their idea and by the co-founder who was squeezed out of the business.

Awards
Best Adapted Screenplay (Aaron Sorkin), Best Film Editing (Kirk Baxter / Angus Wall), Best Original Score (Trent Reznor,, Atticus Ross), Academy Awards
Best Foreign Film, CÃ©sar Awards
Best Foreign Language Film, Cinema Brazil Grand Prize
Best Adapted Screenplay, Writer's Guild of America
Best Film, Online New York Film Critics

I find Facebook and Starbucks equally significant to my life in that I don't patronise either of them. -- Winston

The Social Network isn't only a great film but it's a classic for a new era in filmmaking. -- Danielle Solzman

transmogrifier

05-24-2020, 10:19 AM

It's weird; I like Inception better than The Social Network, but I'm happy the latter won because I like Fincher as a director way more.

Anyway, good work Grouchy!

Peng

05-24-2020, 11:11 AM

Curious about the score difference between Inception and The Social Network.

Dukefrukem

05-24-2020, 11:15 AM

bah!

Henry Gale

05-24-2020, 04:27 PM

Good stuff! Sucks that I came so late to it.

No need to make things even more difficult by counting these in too, but my list probably looks like:

Certified Copy
Black Swan
Inception
127 Hours
Exit Through the Gift Shop
The Illusionist
Shutter Island
Scott Pilgrim vs. the World
Blue Valentine
The American

11. Let Me In
12. Tron: Legacy
13. The Social Network
14. Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows: Part 1
15. Boy
16. Beyond the Black Rainbow
17. Tangled
18. Greenberg
19. Toy Story 3
20. The Fighter

baby doll

05-24-2020, 06:20 PM

The Social Network is probably the most entertaining film Fincher has made since the '90s (certainly it's a lot tighter as storytelling than either Zodiac or The Curious Case of Benjamin Button), although there's something creepy about the way mainstream reviewers hocked the film so aggressively when it came out--a phenomenon that may, in the end, tell us more about American society than the film itself, which frames its subject in exclusively personal terms (i.e., the emphasis is entirely on Zuckerberg as the Great Singular Visionary Who's Also a Bad Friend rather than the ways in which the aims of capitalism dictate the general direction of technological development). Part of what's creepy about the critical hype is the way that terms of praise reviewers used to describe the movie exactly mirrored the terms Silicon Valley uses to hype itself (the Solzman quote is a good example of this): Just as every new piece of technology or software coming down the pipes is supposed to revolutionize our lives and make whatever came before obsolete, the movie (which is essentially classical in its construction) allegedly represents the beginning of a new era in filmmaking.

I've said enough about Inception just in this thread.

In his review of Eastwood's Changeling, J. Hoberman described the film as a "two-fisted snake pit weepie," and the same label could be applied to both Black Swan and Shutter Island as well. What sinks all three films is the heavy-handed directorial bombast, which seems to be obligatory in Serious Hollywood Filmmaking these days (see also the noirish lighting schemes of The Social Network and Inception). Every stylistic move these filmmakers make seems intended to remind us how freakin' monumental it all is, crushing their flimsy stories under an unearned air of significance and making Fincher's film look relatively unpretentious by comparison. To make things worse, Scorsese now seems to be under the impression that a film's importance directly corresponds to its length.

Scott Pilgrim vs. The World is fun but monotonous, and at two hours, way too freaking long.

I'll have to see Another Year again but my initial impression from ten years ago was that long stretches of it were masterful, but at a certain point, it starts to become redundant, hammering home the same point over and over.

True Grit sucks all the fun out of the western.

Winter's Bone, Blue Valentine, and Poetry are all reasonably accomplished films that I have no desire to see again.

Copie conforme, Uncle Boonmee Who Can Recall His Past Lives, Exit Through the Gift Shop, Meek's Cutoff, The Ghost Writer, Carlos, and Greenberg are all spicy or warm.

I haven't seen Toy Story 3, 13 Assassins, or I Saw the Devil.

Skitch

05-24-2020, 06:31 PM

... or I Saw the Devil.

I think that is up your alley, sir. Damn is that a film.

MadMan

05-24-2020, 06:34 PM

I miss Winston. Thanks for doing this Grouchy. I went into The Social Network thinking "They made a movie about Facebook? Why?" and left thinking "What a picture! I want to see that again."

Mr. McGibblets

05-24-2020, 06:37 PM

the movie (which is essentially classical in its construction) allegedly represents the beginning of a new era in filmmaking.
Not to say you're wrong, but this seems like a crazy idea for anyone to have about The Social Network.

Skitch

05-24-2020, 06:40 PM

Not to say you're wrong, but this seems like a crazy idea for anyone to have about The Social Network.

Which part?

I don't know that its a new era in filmmaking, but I'm still shocked anyone was able to make a film about facebook that is not only entertaining, but an aggressively well made almost thriller. Thats fucking Finch tho.

baby doll

05-24-2020, 06:50 PM

Not to say you're wrong, but this seems like a crazy idea for anyone to have about The Social Network.

I agree, and yet...

The Social Network isn't only a great film but it's a classic for a new era in filmmaking. -- Danielle Solzman

Grouchy

05-25-2020, 04:51 AM

Curious about the score difference between Inception and The Social Network.
They were tied 67,5 before Rico gave The Social Network 6 points over. Inception was winning because it had ten votes instead of nine.

If Henry Gale's votes count, then Inception would be winning again. But the bottom half of the list would need some re-doing - basically 127 Hours and The Illusionist would make the list and True Grit, Let Me In and I Saw the Devil would drop off.

StuSmallz

05-25-2020, 08:02 AM

The Social Network is probably the most entertaining film Fincher has made since the '90s (certainly it's a lot tighter as storytelling than Zodiac)You dissing one of my favorite movies (http://matchcut.artboiled.com/showthread.php?14-28-Film-Discussion-Threads-Later/page2774&p=619016#post619016) from '07, homie?

baby doll

05-25-2020, 03:25 PM

You dissing one of my favorite movies (http://matchcut.artboiled.com/showthread.php?14-28-Film-Discussion-Threads-Later/page2774&p=619016#post619016) from '07, homie?Yes.

StuSmallz

05-26-2020, 07:35 AM

Yes.To each their own then, as I felt the way that he juggled the multitude of story threads and perspectives, as he went back and forth between the police investigation, various minor characters, and the journalists at the Chronicle, and the manner in which the propulsive pacing of the first half covering the spree of killings, and the way it transitioned to Graysmith's methodical, one-man investigation in the second, to be utterly seamless, while The Social Network, while still a pretty good movie on the whole, still had one of the most pointless, wasted uses of a mixed-up timeline I've seen in a movie since Reservoir Dogs.

Pop Trash

05-26-2020, 12:28 PM

still had one of the most pointless, wasted uses of a mixed-up timeline I've seen in a movie since Reservoir Dogs.

I don't want to sidetrack into a pointless discussion about Reservoir Dogs, when you are clearly in the tiny minority, but come the fuck on. The chronology in that works to continually give you new information about Mr. Orange and his development as a mole in the group.

Ezee E

05-26-2020, 01:22 PM

Reservoir Dogs told from straight beginning to end would be pretty bad.

baby doll

05-26-2020, 03:49 PM

To each their own then, as I felt the way that he juggled the multitude of story threads and perspectives, as he went back and forth between the police investigation, various minor characters, and the journalists at the Chronicle, and the manner in which the propulsive pacing of the first half covering the spree of killings, and the way it transitioned to Graysmith's methodical, one-man investigation in the second, to be utterly seamless, while The Social Network, while still a pretty good movie on the whole, still had one of the most pointless, wasted uses of a mixed-up timeline I've seen in a movie since Reservoir Dogs.Personally, I found Zodiac a bit choppy as storytelling, moving in fits and starts, rather than achieving the narrative fluidity of Fritz Lang's M (in one sequence, Fincher cites that film's sound bridges to connect parallel lines of action)--although admittedly that's a rather high bar to clear. Incidentally, another reason I prefer Lang's film is that it uses its killer as a device for making a broader point about German society in the 1930s, whereas Fincher's film--which is concerned with procedural minutia to the exclusion of anything else (the characters are all boring stock figures: obsessed amateur detective, neglected wife, working class murder suspect)--suffers in my view from its narrow morbidity.

I'd have to see The Social Network again before weighing in on its flashback structure. My memory of the film is that it creates a strong primacy effect (the scene in the cafÃ© where the girl calls Michael Cera an ass-hole) and then confirms the correctness of that initial impression (as opposed to what Meir Sternberg calls "the rise and fall of first impressions" regarding Mr. Darcy in Pride and Prejudice, to say nothing of the more radical overturning of our first impression in Light in August). Indeed, given that the story was already largely known to the public before the film's release, I suspect that Sorkin's screenplay was aiming for the sort of exposition that Sternberg finds in the novels of Anthony Trollope: Create a strong primacy effect (here in part through typecasting) and minimize suspense and curiosity in order to concentrate the spectator's attention elsewhere, hence the choice of flashbacks to fill in the details of a sequence of events whose outcome is already known by the spectator beforehand.

Tarantino's temporal manipulations are more overt in that they're not motivated as subjective flashbacks (as in The Social Network), although I don't think you can say they're less purposeful: As Tarantino himself put it, in the first part of the movie, the spectator knows less than any of the characters, but by the end, the spectator knows more than any one character. Moreover, the short vignettes establishing Mr. White and Mr. Blonde aid in the spectator's hypothesis-forming as they try to figure out who the rat is.

StuSmallz

06-08-2020, 05:42 AM

Personally, I found Zodiac a bit choppy as storytelling, moving in fits and starts, rather than achieving the narrative fluidity of Fritz Lang's M (in one sequence, Fincher cites that film's sound bridges to connect parallel lines of action)--although admittedly that's a rather high bar to clear. Incidentally, another reason I prefer Lang's film is that it uses its killer as a device for making a broader point about German society in the 1930s, whereas Fincher's film--which is concerned with procedural minutia to the exclusion of anything else (the characters are all boring stock figures: obsessed amateur detective, neglected wife, working class murder suspect)--suffers in my view from its narrow morbidity.I felt that the storytelling in Zodiac was quite smooth throughout, not just in its second half (which pretty much took place exclusively from Graysmith's point of view alone), but in the first one as well, as, even with its ever-shifting perspectives, the film remained constantly propulsive and engaging from the way it used every single character and scene to advance a new fact or development, steadily building up the case one brick at a time as Fincher knew that, as a serial killer procedural, the case is the true star of the film, which is an approach that is consistently utilized throughout the film, and makes perfect sense to me.

At any rate, it doesn’t make sense to me to criticize Zodiac for a lack of social relevance, as, even with its steady stream of details, it still fit a lot amount of commentary into its running time regardless, with its portrayal of the susceptibility of the public to irrational panic in the way that the entire Bay Area goes crazy in the light of the killer's threats, the dilemma the publishers of the Chronicle face when they have to decide whether printing his letters in the newspaper will temporarily placate him, or simply feed his hunger for public attention and fear, and encourage him to kill and terrorize even more, as well as with its critique of the mass media circus's role in adding to said public panic (one that's done partially in the pursuit of just getting more eyeballs glued to their papers/reports), which is a point that is not just implied, but basically expressed straight-up by Avery himself: "Do you know more people die in the East Bay commute every three months than that idiot ever killed?".

As for the point about the characterizations, Graysmith's wife can indeed be considered a stock, ignored wife, but I was still impressed by the way that, in-between all the minutia of the overall investigation, Fincher still managed to find a way to neatly fit in the defining beats of that sub-plot (from their first, uber-awkward date, to the final wedge that Graysmith's obsession drives between them) into the film, but I can't think of many other examples of obsessed, amateur detectives in films, so I don't see how Graysmith is a clichÃ©d character on his own, and as for the main suspect, him being a blue collar creep is simply an accurate reflection of the real Arthur Allen (as most actual serial killers, at best, tend to work menial jobs anyway), so calling him a clichÃ©d character is like when that guy on RT complained that the movie had a "shaggy dog ending" because the killer was never conclusively identified; it's like, but that's how it happened in real life (the movie itself even pointed that out by contrasting its lack of closure with the "Hollywood ending" of the Zodiac-inspired Dirty Harry), so... that's kind of the whole point? https://i.imgur.com/XEfaq1r.gif

baby doll

06-08-2020, 06:44 AM

I felt that the storytelling in Zodiac was quite smooth throughout, not just in its second half (which pretty much took place exclusively from Graysmith's point of view alone), but in the first one as well, as, even with its ever-shifting perspectives, the film remained constantly propulsive and engaging from the way it used every single character and scene to advance a new fact or development, steadily building up the case one brick at a time as Fincher knew that, as a serial killer procedural, the case is the true star of the film, which is an approach that is consistently utilized throughout the film, and makes perfect sense to me.

At any rate, it doesn’t make sense to me to criticize Zodiac for a lack of social relevance, as, even with its steady stream of details, it still fit a lot amount of commentary into its running time regardless, with its portrayal of the susceptibility of the public to irrational panic in the way that the entire Bay Area goes crazy in the light of the killer's threats, the dilemma the publishers of the Chronicle face when they have to decide whether printing his letters in the newspaper will temporarily placate him, or simply feed his hunger for public attention and fear, and encourage him to kill and terrorize even more, as well as with its critique of the mass media's role in adding to said public panic (one that's done partially in the pursuit of just getting more eyeballs glued to their papers/reports), which is a point that is not just implied, but basically expressed straight-up by Avery himself: "Do you know more people die in the East Bay commute every three months than that idiot ever killed?".

As for the point about the characterizations, Graysmith's wife can indeed be considered a stock, ignored wife, but I was still impressed by the way that, in-between all the minutia of the overall investigation, Fincher still managed to find a way to neatly fit in the defining beats of that sub-plot (from their first, uber-awkward date, to the final wedge that Graysmith's obsession drives between them) into the film, but I can't think of many other examples of obsessed, amateur detectives in films, so I don't see how Graysmith is a clichÃ©d character on his own, and as for the main suspect, him being a blue collar creep is simply an accurate reflection of the real Arthur Allen (as most actual serial killers tend to work menial (at best) jobs anyway), so calling him a clichÃ©d character is like when that guy on RT complained that the movie had a "shaggy dog ending" because the killer was never conclusively identified; it's like, but that's how it happened in real life (the movie itself even pointed that out by contrasting the lack of closure with the "Hollywood ending" of Dirty Harry), so... that's kind of the whole point? https://i.imgur.com/XEfaq1r.gifFilms aren't real life, and the major limitation--aesthetically, imaginatively, ideologically--of docudramas in general and Zodiac in particular is to confuse facts with truth. (As Werner Herzog said of Cinema Direct, "It reaches a merely superficial truth, the truth of accountants.") Of course, this would be less of a problem if the facts in this case weren't so familiar and uninteresting (that the film handles the obligatory neglected wife subplot as well as it can and that the real Arthur Allen was likely no more interesting in real life than he is in the movie is small consolation). Indeed, I would argue that the film's mania for facticity betrays a crisis of faith in the capacity of classical Hollywood filmmaking to represent reality--as if the audience wouldn't believe in this story if it didn't come with footnotes. And while there is certainly some social commentary scribbled in the margins of the film, the ratio of procedural minutia and grisly murder sequences to social commentary is in direct inverse proportions to that of Lang's film, where the murders all take place offscreen and the plot never gets bogged down in procedural detail.

StuSmallz

06-08-2020, 06:56 AM

Reservoir Dogs told from straight beginning to end would be pretty bad.
Yeah, but it still doesn't work very well as it's currently structured; yes, like BD already said, the sudden timeline jumps do assist in filling in the story blanks for us as an audience, but the flashbacks also have the tendency of killing the plot's momentum immediately after something major has happened, and in retrospect, it feels more like a gimmick to spice up an otherwise fairly shallow crime caper (and even with the jumbled chronology, it still ends at the actual "end" of the events that it would've with a standard, point A-to-Z timeline, which ends up being a fairly pointless, nihilistic ending anyway), and all of that's without even me comparing it to Pulp Fiction, which actually used its mixed-up timeline to add greater, gradually revealed meanings to its proceedings (although I feel that even that film would work better if everything having to do with Marvin's death was either signficantly restructured, or removed from the film altogether, although that's a discussion for later if you're interested.)

Grouchy

06-08-2020, 03:55 PM

I disagree that the ending is pointless. It would be if the surrogate father relationship Mr. White develops with Mr. Orange wasn't at the heart of the rest of the movie. It ends at the lowest possible point for both characters, sure, but I think it's clear from the opening scene that it's not going to end well.

baby doll

06-08-2020, 04:22 PM

Yeah, but it still doesn't work very well as it's currently structured; yes, like BD already said, the sudden timeline jumps do assist in filling in the story blanks for us as an audience, but the flashbacks also have the tendency of killing the plot's momentum immediately after something major has happened, and in retrospect, it feels more like a gimmick to spice up an otherwise fairly shallow crime caper (and even with the jumbled chronology, it still ends at the actual "end" of the events that it would've with a standard, point A-to-Z timeline, which ends up being a fairly pointless, nihilistic ending anyway), and all of that's without even me comparing it to Pulp Fiction, which actually used its mixed-up timeline to add greater, gradually revealed meanings to its proceedings (although I feel that even that film would work better if everything having to do with Marvin's death was either signficantly restructured, or removed from the film altogether, although that's a discussion for later if you're interested.)Right after something major happened seems like the correct place to put an expository flashback, as opposed to right before something happens or in the middle of a narrative dead zone (in his analysis of The Odyssey, Sternberg points out that most of the flashbacks in that poem come at junctures where the suspense is at a low ebb--and if memory serves, that story also ends at the ending). And if the flashback structure makes the plot more interesting--spicing it up by eliciting the spectator's curiosity about what events led up to the current situation as well as what's going to happen next, not to mention the obvious advantage of not beginning the story with a ton of boring exposition--isn't that, well, good? After all, a film isn't what it's about but how it's about it.