Frozen II (Chris Buck, Jennifer Lee)

[TGM]

FROZEN II

Directors: Chris Buck, Jennifer Lee

imdb (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4520988/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1)

[TGM]

I am seeing this tonight. I am hyped. :cool:

[Lazlo]

I am seeing this tonight. I am hyped. :cool:

I'm also seeing this tonight. Not super hyped, cautiously optimistic, mostly wanting to get it out of the way, haha.

[TGM]

God, I can’t remember the last time I went into a movie this stupidly excited for it, and it actually met my ridiculous expectations of it. Loved this. Loved. This.

[TGM]

Finally got my review written up, which I should be posting either later tonight or tomorrow. But for now, 2010s Walt Disney Animation Studios films ranked:
Frozen
Frozen II
Zootopia
Tangled
Moana
Big Hero 6
Wreck-It Ralph
Ralph Breaks the Internet
Winnie the Pooh

[TGM]

My full review: https://cwiddop.blogspot.com/2019/12/frozen-ii.html

[TGM]

I'm also seeing this tonight. Not super hyped, cautiously optimistic, mostly wanting to get it out of the way, haha.

Thoughts on the movie? :p

[Lazlo]

Thoughts on the movie? :p

It was fine! Beautiful to look at, of course, but the story was a bit of a jumble. The run from Elsa crossing the ocean, singing "Show Yourself," through Anna singing "The Next Right Thing" (my favorite song of the bunch) is pretty spectacular and really the high point of the movie emotionally and musically. Olaf continues to be an annoyance and the when-will-Kristof-get-a-damn-moment-to-propose? plot is super tired. Mid-tier Disney animation (taking the whole 80 years into account). Also might have been negatively affected by the three 20-something bros sitting behind me, 2 of which showed up 10 minutes late and needed to talk to their friend about what they'd missed as well as needing a recap of the first movie. Lots of chit-chat. Ugh. Anyway, didn't love it, though it has some pretty high highs, didn't hate it.

[TGM]

Your complaints ring consistent with others I’ve heard. I of course wasn’t bothered by those things, but I’m glad you still enjoyed the movie all the same. :)

The 2nd time I saw it I had to deal with a chatty audience as well. If that were my first viewing, I fear I would’ve had another La La Land scenario on my hand, where I wouldn’t even be able to enjoy the movie, cause they seriously talked through the entire last third of this things, songs and everything. Very obnoxious, but thankfully all my other viewings have been very well behaved. :p

You’re not kidding about that stretch of greatness you point out, though. The “Show Yourself” sequence is hands down the best scene I’ve seen in any movie this year, and is quite frankly a contender for scene of the decade at that, IMO. It’s seriously one of the most visually and emotionally beautiful moments I’ve ever seen captured in a movie.

And “The Next Right Thing” floored me with its stark groundedness and Kristen Bell’s emotionally packed performance. Seriously, she sold the hell out of that moment, and gives one of the best performances of the year there, and makes me wish voice work in animated films got taken more seriously for awards consideration.

[Lazlo]

Your complaints ring consistent with others I’ve heard. I of course wasn’t bothered by those things, but I’m glad you still enjoyed the movie all the same. :)

The 2nd time I saw it I had to deal with a chatty audience as well. If that were my first viewing, I fear I would’ve had another La La Land scenario on my hand, where I wouldn’t even be able to enjoy the movie, cause they seriously talked through the entire last third of this things, songs and everything. Very obnoxious, but thankfully all my other viewings have been very well behaved. :p

You’re not kidding about that stretch of greatness you point out, though. The “Show Yourself” sequence is hands down the best scene I’ve seen in any movie this year, and is quite frankly a contender for scene of the decade at that, IMO. It’s seriously one of the most visually and emotionally beautiful moments I’ve ever seen captured in a movie.

And “The Next Right Thing” floored me with its stark groundedness and Kristen Bell’s emotionally packed performance. Seriously, she sold the hell out of that moment, and gives one of the best performances of the year there, and makes me wish voice work in animated films got taken more seriously for awards consideration.

Glad you liked it so much. It's such a great thing to connect with a movie on that level!

[TGM]

Glad you liked it so much. It's such a great thing to connect with a movie on that level!

I was thinking of this, and it made me recall Henry Gale’s reaction to Kubo and the Two Strings:

http://matchcut.artboiled.com/showthread.php?6456-Kubo-and-the-Two-Strings-(Travis-Knight)&p=559747&viewfull=1#post559747

I feel like I definitely understand how that movie made him felt back then.

Also curious what he would think about this one, seeing how he was among the few here who was rather favorable towards the first movie. Whatever happened to him I wonder?

[Ivan Drago]

Haven't really thought too much about this since I saw it, but I enjoyed it for its runtime. The animation is breathtakingly gorgeous, I liked the character arcs for Anna and Elsa, and the songs are good, with "Into The Unknown" being the best of the bunch, although I also got a kick out of Kristoff's 80s love ballad (during which the 80s-style editing and visuals had me in stitches). Some recent trends in Disney's work make their presence here that end up being detrimental to its narrative like the way it plays its ending safe as well as the lack of a villain, but overall, I was entertained.

Also, when our heroes walked through the giant wall of mist leading into the enchanted forest, I got serious Annihilation vibes to the point where now I want an R-rated Annihilation remake with Disney princesses.

[TGM]

Watched this again today, and I can't help but feel like the poetic way in which the sisters' stories are told in the last third of this movie is seriously master class stuff, especially since it's all done without ever really drawing attention to itself and what it's doing. But the movie makes the claim that they're both two sides of the same bridge, and that's certainly shown in the ways in which their journeys play out and parallel one another, working in opposite manners towards the same endgoal:

Anna consoles Elsa, who's crying tears of sadness, and hugs her. Then they part.

Anna is sent against her will into a body of water, a river, where she's met by one of the elemental spirits (the earth giants), but she avoids confrontation, leading her into a cavern, where she starts from the bottom and has to climb her way back out out.

Elsa purposefully makes her way into a body of water, an ocean, where she's met by one of the elemental spirits (the water nokk), and she directly confronts it, riding it to Ahtohallan, and enters into a cavern where she starts at the top and gradually makes her way further and further down.

Elsa sings a song of pure joy in a scene that's filled with magic and spectacle, and undergoes a critical transformation.

Elsa hops down to the deepest depths of Ahtohallan and finds the answer she's looking for, sacrificing her life in the process, giving up everything to deliver the message to Anna.

Anna receives the message, and in turn loses everything with the death of her sister, and Olaf dying in her arms.

Anna sings a song of pure grief in a scene that's grim and grounded, and undergoes a critical transformation, as she climbs out of the cavern into the sunlight, standing tall enough to see the entire enchanted forest beneath her.

Anna engages with the spirits she encountered earlier, using them to destroy the dam and break the curse. This causes a tidal wave barreling straight for Arendelle.

Newly revived, Elsa is aided by the spirit she encountered earlier, who helps her back to Arendelle, where she creates a dam of ice to stop the tidal wave from destroying Arendelle.

Elsa and Anna reunite, and Elsa consoles Anna, who's crying tears of happiness, as they embrace once more in a hug.

[TGM]

Also, when our heroes walked through the giant wall of mist leading into the enchanted forest, I got serious Annihilation vibes to the point where now I want an R-rated Annihilation remake with Disney princesses.

While not quite the same thing (or rather, not the same thing at all, in fact!), the current rumor is that Disney is looking to make a more book faithful adaptation of The Snow Queen into live action, which would of course be telling a much darker story than we've become accustomed to, so that could possibly be interesting.

But yes, this too. :p

[Dukefrukem]

My kneejerk reaction is this is the saddest and laziest attempt for a cash grab in the history of Hollywood. One of the worst Disney movies I've ever seen.

[TGM]

... :\

I can’t even comprehend having that reaction to this movie. Explain, please.

[TGM]

I’m convinced that given time, when people start revisiting the movies from this era of Disney animation in a decade or so, and they get around to Frozen II in those revisits, this movie will finally get the respect it deserves as people come to see it truly is one of the best things the studio has ever put out.

I am prepared to defend this statement.

https://i.imgur.com/6YqGi93.gif

[Dukefrukem]

... :\

I can’t even comprehend having that reaction to this movie. Explain, please.

https://letterboxd.com/dukefrukem/film/frozen-ii/

Preface: I didn't like Frozen, and since this film doesn't come close to matching the epic emotional and soul touching song as "Let it Go", it automatically denotes this as being an inferior sequel. That is all even before taking into account the script which doesn't really have a clear villain or threat. The journey is there, but to what purpose is a mystery until the finale, which makes everything up until then feel confusing.

The plot feels made up as we are strung along, with no rules or boundaries to be threatened or excited for. Sure there are large rock, fire and water spirits that all feel like they want to kill our characters in the most violent way possible... of course that is all before we are made to realize just how cute, innocent and misunderstood they are. The rock monsters stop trying to kill Anna when it's convenient for the script. If the spirits wanted the dam broken so bad, why didn't they just break the dam themselves?? Because symbolism!

Kristoff appears out of nowhere for the finale in a very deus ex machina like fashion, after he is forgotten about midway through the film. That's a common theme throughout the film- no characters want to stick together to figure things out. Everything needs to be done solo to manufacture drama when there clearly isn't any: e.g. the fire spirit setting it's own forest on fire.

Then Elsa randomly dies by.... frozen? Why? How? Because she learned the truth? What rule are we supposed to follow here? Elsa then sends a frozen telegram through the air to Anna who (somehow) concludes that the dam needs to be broken. Pretty big leap knowing your entire town will be destroyed....

The songs are all mostly terrible, depressing and unfun. Where is the lively pick me up song? And after everything Elsa has gone through from the first film, she has learned nothing... and still hopelessly trapped in our way when she (again) blames herself for her parents untimely death.

The worst Disney movie in the last 30 years.

I rather like Trans statement here that sums up the film even more briefly.

"The product of a studio looking to extend their brand, rather than a filmmaker with a story to tell."

[Dukefrukem]

people come to see it truly is one of the best things the studio has ever put out.


Got it ranked 25th right now (just in front of Song of the South) with 30 more films to rank.

[Peng]

I’m convinced that given time, when people start revisiting the movies from this era of Disney animation in a decade or so, and they get around to Frozen II in those revisits, this movie will finally get the respect it deserves as people come to see it truly is one of the best things the studio has ever put out.

I am prepared to defend this statement.

...This is the kind of flashback-inducing I was recalling in the Joker thread (http://matchcut.artboiled.com/showthread.php?7629-Joker-(Todd-Phillips)&p=614857&viewfull=1#post614857). https://awardsworthy.org/images/smilies/smileys/lol.gif

[TGM]

That is all even before taking into account the script which doesn't really have a clear villain or threat.

I keep hearing people make the complaint about the lack of a villain, but I don't see why that's an issue? Just because most Disney animated films have clearly defined villains doesn't mean that they all have to have one. Hell, in the first movie, the villain was literally an emotion (Hans is not that film's main villain. Here's merely a player in the game, but the true villain of the film is Elsa's fear). And this movie plays right into that. In real life, we oftentimes don't have actual villains in the form of people how act as our sole obstacle to be tackled. Unexpected situations arise, life happens, our emotional response to these issues happen, nature happens, our history catches back up with us as something to overcome in order to better ourselves. And that's all fully reflective in this film.


The journey is there, but to what purpose is a mystery until the finale, which makes everything up until then feel confusing.

And our characters are just as much in the dark. Elsa's being called out to, and as soon as she accepts the call, nature pushes them on their way. And as they go along the journey, they discover more and more why they were called out there. It's a mystery, just as much to the characters as it is to us, the viewer. Why do you need to know all the answers up front? Isn't a mystery more rewarding if the secrets are revealed gradually along the journey?

Besides which, the answers are all there, and they're there all along, just presented in vague manners which don't make them immediately obvious, but which becomes more apparent in subsequent viewings, and which in turn makes multiple viewings a more rewarding experience, seeing just how much of it was right in front of our faces the whole time without us even realizing it.


The plot feels made up as we are strung along, with no rules or boundaries to be threatened or excited for. Sure there are large rock, fire and water spirits that all feel like they want to kill our characters in the most violent way possible... of course that is all before we are made to realize just how cute, innocent and misunderstood they are. The rock monsters stop trying to kill Anna when it's convenient for the script. If the spirits wanted the dam broken so bad, why didn't they just break the dam themselves?? Because symbolism!

It was man who created the problem, so it needed to be man who fixed the problem. The spirits revolted in response to man's petty squabbles, so it was man who needed to come to this conclusion, see the error in their ways, and fix things. Otherwise, man learns no lesson, which is precisely the point of the issue at hand.

However, amongst the fighting between the Northuldra and the Arandelians, Ahtohallan saw Iduna, a Northuldran, aiding her enemy, Agnarr, then prince of Arandelle. Ahtohallan saw the potential there for man to be able to be peaceful with one another in this act, and rewarded them with Elsa, the one capable of ending the petty squabbles and bridging the gap between both people.

As to the spirits being "cute and misunderstood", again, that was the point of Elsa. Her powers grant her the ability to tame the spirits. They don't stop attacking the people just for the sake of it, they stop it because they acknowledge her, and come to recognize who she is as such, the fifth spirit being called upon by Ahtohallan.


Kristoff appears out of nowhere for the finale in a very deus ex machina like fashion, after he is forgotten about midway through the film. That's a common theme throughout the film- no characters want to stick together to figure things out. Everything needs to be done solo to manufacture drama when there clearly isn't any: e.g. the fire spirit setting it's own forest on fire.

Don't see how Kristoff appearing at the end is deus ex machina. Should he have just remained in that same spot with the reindeer the whole time? He mentions he knows the woods, knows where they started out for, something related to the dam, and was heading back to that general vicinity. Makes sense to me.

And when else does this happen in the movie, to where you refer to it as a common theme? It's not. Anna doesn't want to lose Elsa, but in her desperation to keep Elsa from putting herself in harms way, she in turn keeps putting herself (Anna) in danger. And unlike Elsa, Anna doesn't have powers to protect herself in these situations. So when Elsa pushes Anna away at the end, she's doing exactly as Anna has been. She's protecting Anna from herself. They did try talking it out. Anna's emotions got the better of her, and she wouldn't see where Elsa was coming from. So, Elsa takes matters into her own hands and makes it so Anna can't follow along and, as such, put herself in harm's way.

As to the fire spirit attacking them, they've been attacking them since they first appeared. They see someone's actually been able to break through the mist, and assume it's another threat against the Enchanted Forest. It's only after Elsa is able to prove herself and tame the spirits with her powers that they then calm down.


Then Elsa randomly dies by.... frozen? Why? How? Because she learned the truth? What rule are we supposed to follow here?

This is established from the very first scene in the movie, and throughout the rest of it. "Dive down deep into the sound, but not too far or you'll be drowned." They ponder upon this meaning when she speaks at the campfire with Honeymaren, and it's even ominously repeated to her as she gets closer and closer to the truth. She knew the risks, and has been told of the risks since she was a child. And yet she went after it anyways. This rule is firmly established by this point in the film.

As to how she's Frozen, it's because Ahtohallan is the source of her powers, and as is being proven here, also the one entity capable of turning those powers against Elsa.


Elsa then sends a frozen telegram through the air to Anna who (somehow) concludes that the dam needs to be broken. Pretty big leap knowing your entire town will be destroyed....

She literally breaks it down in this very scene how she came to this conclusion. She's even torn up about it in the moment. The dam was a trick. The villagers were forced out of the village, because the dam, the symbol of man's hatred for one another, needs to be crumpled, and doing so would put the villagers in harm's way.


The songs are all mostly terrible, depressing and unfun.

Lost in the Woods and The Next Right Thing you can make an argument for being depressing (but unfun for Lost in the Woods??). The same can't be said for Show Yourself or Into the Unknown. How? These are some of the most uplifting songs to come out of a Disney film. And while The Next Right Thing may be depressing, it's also empowering, and sends an incredible and motivating message. It's one of the most powerful songs lyrically, emotionally, and in terms of performance in Disney's whole lineup.

The songs in this movie are the furthest thing I can think of when I think of the word "terrible".


And after everything Elsa has gone through from the first film, she has learned nothing... and still hopelessly trapped in our way when she (again) blames herself for her parents untimely death.

Not true at all. She's learned to love, to let others into her life. She's learned to embrace her powers, not fear them. But she still has anxieties. She still has lingering fears. That stuff doesn't just go away entirely, not after you've held onto them for most of your life like she has. A part of that will always remain a part of you to some extent. That's realistic character development, and this is as accurate a depiction of mental illness as I can imagine.

And she learns her parents left for the ship voyage that ultimately killed them in search of answers specifically about her. How would she not blame herself after such a revelation?


The worst Disney movie in the last 30 years.

From a pure quality standpoint, it's the best Disney movie since the Disney Renaissance of the 90s. ;)


"The product of a studio looking to extend their brand, rather than a filmmaker with a story to tell."

If that were even mildly true, we would've seen this film closer to around 2016, not in 2019. You don't spend 6 years on a cash grab. If you wanna make that argument for the short films that released in the meantime, be my guest, but this was a film that has mountains of heart and passion behind it, and a true love and respect for story and character. And listening to the filmmakers talk, it was clear that they were urged to come up with a sequel, but it's also clear that they wanted to make sure that they didn't just blindly move forward with just anything, and waited until they had a story that was truly worth telling, and which did the characters justice. And this movie was precisely that.

[TGM]

...This is the kind of flashback-inducing I was recalling in the Joker thread (http://matchcut.artboiled.com/showthread.php?7629-Joker-(Todd-Phillips)&p=614857&viewfull=1#post614857). https://awardsworthy.org/images/smilies/smileys/lol.gif

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/964/843/833.jpg

[Dukefrukem]

I keep hearing people make the complaint about the lack of a villain, but I don't see why that's an issue? Just because most Disney animated films have clearly defined villains doesn't mean that they all have to have one. Hell, in the first movie, the villain was literally an emotion (Hans is not that film's main villain. Here's merely a player in the game, but the true villain of the film is Elsa's fear). And this movie plays right into that. In real life, we oftentimes don't have actual villains in the form of people how act as our sole obstacle to be tackled. Unexpected situations arise, life happens, our emotional response to these issues happen, nature happens, our history catches back up with us as something to overcome in order to better ourselves. And that's all fully reflective in this film.

Replace villain with antagonist. Every story needs one. Otherwise the audience is blind to ultimate goal.

[Dukefrukem]

If that were even mildly true, we would've seen this film closer to around 2016, not in 2019. You don't spend 6 years on a cash grab. If you wanna make that argument for the short films that released in the meantime, be my guest, but this was a film that has mountains of heart and passion behind it, and a true love and respect for story and character. And listening to the filmmakers talk, it was clear that they were urged to come up with a sequel, but it's also clear that they wanted to make sure that they didn't just blindly move forward with just anything, and waited until they had a story that was truly worth telling, and which did the characters justice. And this movie was precisely that.

9 years between Toy Story 3 and 4.

[Dukefrukem]

She literally breaks it down in this very scene how she came to this conclusion. She's even torn up about it in the moment. The dam was a trick. The villagers were forced out of the village, because the dam, the symbol of man's hatred for one another, needs to be crumpled, and doing so would put the villagers in harm's way.


I know. She breaks it down just like how they broke down how to destroy Starkiller Base in the Force Awakens. Hot potato exposition out of thin air!

[Dukefrukem]

Not true at all. She's learned to love, to let others into her life. She's learned to embrace her powers, not fear them. But she still has anxieties. She still has lingering fears. That stuff doesn't just go away entirely, not after you've held onto them for most of your life like she has. A part of that will always remain a part of you to some extent. That's realistic character development, and this is as accurate a depiction of mental illness as I can imagine.

Wasn't talking about the ending. I was talking about her journey to the ending. She falls into the exact same tropes as the first film. "Ohhhh its allll my fault.... if only my parents weren't doing X Y and Z. I can't live with myself. I'll runaway from everyone I know to feel sorry for myself! Boo Hoooo hooooo"

[Dukefrukem]

This is established from the very first scene in the movie, and throughout the rest of it. "Dive down deep into the sound, but not too far or you'll be drowned." They ponder upon this meaning when she speaks at the campfire with Honeymaren, and it's even ominously repeated to her as she gets closer and closer to the truth. She knew the risks, and has been told of the risks since she was a child. And yet she went after it anyways. This rule is firmly established by this point in the film.

I saw the film last night and I still have no idea what your'e talking about. So no, it's not firmly established at all. Seems very opposite of firmly established.

[Dukefrukem]

The rest of the points I dont care to quibble about. Song taste is subjective. None of the songs appealed to me. Kind of joke they were even nominated for an Oscar.

Kristoff was given the bare minimum to do for a supporting character and the proposal bit was tired.

Take it from a Disney shill, this movie is not good.

[Dukefrukem]

As to the spirits being "cute and misunderstood", again, that was the point of Elsa. Her powers grant her the ability to tame the spirits. They don't stop attacking the people just for the sake of it, they stop it because they acknowledge her, and come to recognize who she is as such, the fifth spirit being called upon by Ahtohallan.

You totally just made all that up. That's not what happened with ANY of the spirits and you know that, more notably the water horse that tried to fucking drown her and the rock monsters that want to crush anything and everything it sees.

[TGM]

Replace villain with antagonist. Every story needs one. Otherwise the audience is blind to ultimate goal.

Okay? My point doesn't change?


9 years between Toy Story 3 and 4.

Okay, and...?


I know. She breaks it down just like how they broke down how to destroy Starkiller Base in the Force Awakens. Hot potato exposition out of thin air!

Don't recall any hot potato exposition in this movie.


Wasn't talking about the ending. I was talking about her journey to the ending. She falls into the exact same tropes as the first film. "Ohhhh its allll my fault.... if only my parents weren't doing X Y and Z. I can't live with myself. I'll runaway from everyone I know to feel sorry for myself! Boo Hoooo hooooo"

She wasn't running away though? She was momentarily isolating herself to grieve over this new revelation. If it were like the first movie, do you really think Anna would've been able to console her as easily as she did? When Anna tried this in the first film, she literally made a giant snowman monster to chase her off the mountain.


I saw the film last night and I still have no idea what you're talking about. So no, it's not firmly established at all. Seems very opposite of firmly established.

Just because you don't recall it doesn't mean that I didn't literally just describe events from the movie as they happened in the movie. It's not the movie's fault if you weren't able to keep up with it, but that's all still in there either way.


You totally just made all that up. That's not what happened with ANY of the spirits and you know that, more notably the water horse that tried to fucking drown her and the rock monsters that want to crush anything and everything it sees.

I didn't make that all up. It's literally in the movie. The movie doesn't feel the need to put itself on pause to dumb itself down and explain everything that's happening like most other movies these days do, it trusts its audience to be able to keep up with events as they're happening, and that's totally what's happening throughout.

They enter the Enchanted Forest, and almost immediately they start getting messed with, as we see during Olaf's song. The wind spirit then directly attacks them, Elsa uses her powers to protect Anna, then the wind spirit turns its attention exclusively on Elsa. Elsa is able to overpower it, then the wind spirit becomes friendly.

Gale then proceeds to help them along their journey, such as blowing the wind towards the ship, moving them in the right direction, because it knows who she is and where she's going.

We see this happen again with the fire spirit, who then upon realizing who Elsa is, turns towards the voice calling out to her, then looks back at Elsa, urging her to follow, as it acknowledges who she is and where she's going.

And while she's not explicitly protecting anyone against the water nokk during their duel, she again succeeds in overpowering it using her powers, taming it in the moment, as it acknowledges her abilities and who she is, and as such, takes her to Ahtohallan.

This all literally happens in the movie. I made precisely none of it up.

[TGM]

I saw the film last night and I still have no idea what your'e talking about. So no, it's not firmly established at all. Seems very opposite of firmly established.

I should note with this point, a lot of the stuff I'm describing wasn't immediately apparent to me as well. But that's one of the things I love about the movie, is how it gives you a lot to ponder over, and then when you revisit it, you start to see those pieces fitting together that didn't quite make sense before. It treats its audience's intelligence with a level of respect that is just unheard of in a movie like this nowadays, where it gives you all the answers, presents a bit of a puzzle, and trusts that you'll be able to fit it all together. And sure enough, yeah, it all fits, it all makes sense, and literally every single "plot hole" I've heard someone bring up is something that actually does have an answer somewhere in the film. It's just not always through dialogue or explicit exposition. There's tons of lyrical clues, visual clues, off-handed clues. Like, there's so much detail in this movie, and it's so well thought out, there's no way this can be described as a cash grab.

Hell...


Watched this again today, and I can't help but feel like the poetic way in which the sisters' stories are told in the last third of this movie is seriously master class stuff, especially since it's all done without ever really drawing attention to itself and what it's doing. But the movie makes the claim that they're both two sides of the same bridge, and that's certainly shown in the ways in which their journeys play out and parallel one another, working in opposite manners towards the same endgoal:

Anna consoles Elsa, who's crying tears of sadness, and hugs her. Then they part.

Anna is sent against her will into a body of water, a river, where she's met by one of the elemental spirits (the earth giants), but she avoids confrontation, leading her into a cavern, where she starts from the bottom and has to climb her way back out out.

Elsa purposefully makes her way into a body of water, an ocean, where she's met by one of the elemental spirits (the water nokk), and she directly confronts it, riding it to Ahtohallan, and enters into a cavern where she starts at the top and gradually makes her way further and further down.

Elsa sings a song of pure joy in a scene that's filled with magic and spectacle, and undergoes a critical transformation.

Elsa hops down to the deepest depths of Ahtohallan and finds the answer she's looking for, sacrificing her life in the process, giving up everything to deliver the message to Anna.

Anna receives the message, and in turn loses everything with the death of her sister, and Olaf dying in her arms.

Anna sings a song of pure grief in a scene that's grim and grounded, and undergoes a critical transformation, as she climbs out of the cavern into the sunlight, standing tall enough to see the entire enchanted forest beneath her.

Anna engages with the spirits she encountered earlier, using them to destroy the dam and break the curse. This causes a tidal wave barreling straight for Arendelle.

Newly revived, Elsa is aided by the spirit she encountered earlier, who helps her back to Arendelle, where she creates a dam of ice to stop the tidal wave from destroying Arendelle.

Elsa and Anna reunite, and Elsa consoles Anna, who's crying tears of happiness, as they embrace once more in a hug.

Yeah, way too much heart and effort went into this level of storytelling for it to in any way be described as a soulless cash grab of a film. And that's just a breakdown of the last act, this level of poetic storytelling is strung all throughout this thing.

[Dukefrukem]

I didn't make that all up. It's literally in the movie. The movie doesn't feel the need to put itself on pause to dumb itself down and explain everything that's happening like most other movies these days do, it trusts its audience to be able to keep up with events as they're happening, and that's totally what's happening throughout.

They enter the Enchanted Forest, and almost immediately they start getting messed with, as we see during Olaf's song. The wind spirit then directly attacks them, Elsa uses her powers to protect Anna, then the wind spirit turns its attention exclusively on Elsa. Elsa is able to overpower it, then the wind spirit becomes friendly.

Gale then proceeds to help them along their journey, such as blowing the wind towards the ship, moving them in the right direction, because it knows who she is and where she's going.

We see this happen again with the fire spirit, who then upon realizing who Elsa is, turns towards the voice calling out to her, then looks back at Elsa, urging her to follow, as it acknowledges who she is and where she's going.

And while she's not explicitly protecting anyone against the water nokk during their duel, she again succeeds in overpowering it using her powers, taming it in the moment, as it acknowledges her abilities and who she is, and as such, takes her to Ahtohallan.

This all literally happens in the movie. I made precisely none of it up.

Yeh none of THAT is made up. But "acknowledge her, and come to recognize who she is as such" is made up by you. You just changed your argument so you could say "I didn't make it up" Taming is not "acknowledging".

[Dukefrukem]

Okay? My point doesn't change?



Well your point doesn't make sense then. Every story needs a conflict. Otherwise you'll get something like Leviathan (2012). Frozen 2 the conflict is a mystery so therefor I have no sense of motivation. We are just brought to set piece to set piece and stuff just happens.

[Dukefrukem]

Okay, and...?



Time between films doesn't matter.

[Dukefrukem]

Don't recall any hot potato exposition in this movie.


Well shes talking to herself (or Olaf) and they solve (what could have been) a pretty big conflict in the matter of seconds. Lazy.

[Dukefrukem]

She wasn't running away though? She was momentarily isolating herself to grieve over this new revelation. If it were like the first movie, do you really think Anna would've been able to console her as easily as she did? When Anna tried this in the first film, she literally made a giant snowman monster to chase her off the mountain.
.

She pushes her sister away in a frozen canoe after her "woes me". Her character does the same thing in the first film. Would have liked SOME development here.

[Dukefrukem]

Just because you don't recall it doesn't mean that I didn't literally just describe events from the movie as they happened in the movie. It's not the movie's fault if you weren't able to keep up with it, but that's all still in there either way.



No, it very well could have happened. It was just very poorly executed and explained. I'm not re-watching the film so I can study why Elsa gets herself frozen on some magic island. It shouldn't be that deep.

[TGM]

Yeh none of THAT is made up. But "acknowledge her, and come to recognize who she is as such" is made up by you. You just changed your argument so you could say "I didn't make it up" Taming is not "acknowledging".

They did acknowledge her, though. That part's not made up either, and is in fact still covered by my further explanation.


Well your point doesn't make sense then. Every story needs a conflict. Otherwise you'll get something like Leviathan (2012). Frozen 2 the conflict is a mystery so therefor I have no sense of motivation. We are just brought to set piece to set piece and stuff just happens.

A voice is calling out to Elsa. She rejects the call initially, but as soon as she accepts it, shit hits the fan, and they discover that a wrong from their past demands to be righted. So they set out to answer the call and, in turn, right that wrong from their past. Our motivation is to discover who it is that's calling out to them, why they've done to the village what they did, and what mystery from their past needs to be corrected. I don't see the issue here.

Plenty of films don't have clear antagonists. The original Toy Story, the antagonist is Woody's insecurity. Sid is a villainous character towards the characters, but not the core villain of the story, just another obstacle they have to overcome along their journey.

Inside Out, the antagonist is Riley's depression. We follow her emotions of Joy and Sadness as they journey through her head to discover how to turn her emotions back on, after she's shut them out. There's no clear central villain as we follow them along, and they gradually discover the answer they've been looking for.

That's just a couple of examples off the very top of my head.


Well shes talking to herself (or Olaf) and they solve (what could have been) a pretty big conflict in the matter of seconds. Lazy.

They went into the forest knowing that the wrong that demanded to be righted had to do with the dam.

She's sent a memory showing that the dam wasn't a gift, but a trick used to attack the Northulda people off guard.

How much runtime would be enough time for the movie to pointlessly waste on her putting two and two together in order for you to not consider it lazy?


She pushes her sister away in a frozen canoe after her "woes me". Her character does the same thing in the first film. Would have liked SOME development here.

Literally already covered this in my first response to you. And here it is again:

And when else does this happen in the movie, to where you refer to it as a common theme? It's not. Anna doesn't want to lose Elsa, but in her desperation to keep Elsa from putting herself in harms way, she in turn keeps putting herself (Anna) in danger. And unlike Elsa, Anna doesn't have powers to protect herself in these situations. So when Elsa pushes Anna away at the end, she's doing exactly as Anna has been. She's protecting Anna from herself. They did try talking it out. Anna's emotions got the better of her, and she wouldn't see where Elsa was coming from. So, Elsa takes matters into her own hands and makes it so Anna can't follow along and, as such, put herself in harm's way.


No, it very well could have happened. It was just very poorly executed and explained. I'm not re-watching the film so I can study why Elsa gets herself frozen on some magic island. It shouldn't be that deep.

And I don't expect you to. But I for one appreciate that the movie's as deep as it is, whether people want to give it credit for such or not. So many movies these days are so instantly forgettable for me, in one ear out the other, and I can't help but feel like most of what I got out of them is a waste of two hours of my life. So when I stumble upon something like this that not only actually stays with me, but encourages me to revisit it and rewards me for my efforts, yeah, it makes for a far more worthwhile experience, in my opinion.

In any event, I am glad you still gave it a shot, even though I'm pretty sure both you and I already knew going in that you probably weren't going to like it. And while we wildly disagree on the movie, I will say that I'm quite enjoying finally having someone engage in an actual conversation about it outside of the diehard fanbase. :p

[Dukefrukem]

Literally already covered this in my first response to you. And here it is again:

And when else does this happen in the movie, to where you refer to it as a common theme? It's not. Anna doesn't want to lose Elsa, but in her desperation to keep Elsa from putting herself in harms way, she in turn keeps putting herself (Anna) in danger. And unlike Elsa, Anna doesn't have powers to protect herself in these situations. So when Elsa pushes Anna away at the end, she's doing exactly as Anna has been. She's protecting Anna from herself. They did try talking it out. Anna's emotions got the better of her, and she wouldn't see where Elsa was coming from. So, Elsa takes matters into her own hands and makes it so Anna can't follow along and, as such, put herself in harm's way.


Elsa keeps the voices away from her sister.

Elsa runs away from the group when they enter the forest.

Anna runs away from Kristof after the botched proposal.

Olaf disappears so he can sing a song.

Elsa runs into fire by herself. Kristof/Anna run away from Elsa leaving her to fight the fire. There's even dialog around this.

Elsa / Anna run away from the group when they think Kristof "left". Gimme a break.

Elsa pushes Anna away in the frozen canoe.

Common enough for ya?

[Dukefrukem]

They went into the forest knowing that the wrong that demanded to be righted had to do with the dam.

She's sent a memory showing that the dam wasn't a gift, but a trick used to attack the Northulda people off guard.


Here's the dialog.

"Elsa found it... the truth about the past. The dam wasn't a gift of peace, it was a trick"

LOL WUT?

"I know how to free the forest. I know what I have to do. To set things right."

[TGM]

Elsa keeps the voices away from her sister.

Yes, and? She just fixed her relationship with her sister, and is afraid of ruining things again. What's the issue here?


Elsa runs away from the group when they enter the forest.

Anna runs away from Kristof after the botched proposal.

Olaf disappears so he can sing a song.

She doesn't run away. None of them do. They all kinda wander around admiring their new setting. Nobody explicitly runs away from anyone else when they enter the forest, though.


Elsa runs into fire by herself. Kristof/Anna run away from Elsa leaving her to fight the fire. There's even dialog around this.

K, and? What's the issue here?


Elsa / Anna run away from the group when they think Kristof "left". Gimme a break.

They don't leave because he left. They're in a hurry, because the longer they stay, the more danger they place everyone in, because Elsa is attracting the spirits to her. This is why the earth giants are roaming about in that vicinity, even though the characters state that they should be roaming around elsewhere during this time of night.

Kristoff being left behind is a happenstance, not a cause, and it's one that plays into his own story, where he's dealing with his own issues of insecurity.


Elsa pushes Anna away in the frozen canoe.

Common enough for ya?

You keep listing things that happen, and I keep being confused by how any of these are in any way flaws in the movie. :\

[Dukefrukem]

Yes, and? She just fixed her relationship with her sister, and is afraid of ruining things again. What's the issue here?



She doesn't run away. None of them do. They all kinda wander around admiring their new setting. Nobody explicitly runs away from anyone else when they enter the forest, though.



K, and? What's the issue here?



They don't leave because he left. They're in a hurry, because the longer they stay, the more danger they place everyone in, because Elsa is attracting the spirits to her. This is why the earth giants are roaming about in that vicinity, even though the characters state that they should be roaming around elsewhere during this time of night.

Kristoff being left behind is a happenstance, not a cause, and it's one that plays into his own story, where he's dealing with his own issues of insecurity.



You keep listing things that happen, and I keep being confused by how any of these are in any way flaws in the movie. :\

They're all examples of the party just randomly dispersing for no logical reason. The script just needs them to. Most of those go back my original statement of why Elsa hasn't learned anything from the first film. That's how we end up here. So you don't need to breakdown every example. It's a common trope in the film that doesn't work to it's benefit.

[TGM]

Here's the dialog.

"Elsa found it... the truth about the past. The dam wasn't a gift of peace, it was a trick"

LOL WUT?

"I know how to free the forest. I know what I have to do. To set things right."

And here's the set-up:

A frozen memory appears, showing King Runeard attacking the Northuldra leader off guard, as the Northulda leader's voice can be heard saying that the dam is hurting the forest.

Dur... wHaT cOuLd ThAt MeAn?!? :eek: :eek: :eek:

[TGM]

They're all examples of the party just randomly dispersing for no logical reason. The script just needs them to. Most of those go back my original statement of why Elsa hasn't learned anything from the first film. That's how we end up here. So you don't need to breakdown every example. It's a common trope in the film that doesn't work to it's benefit.

Except that there is logic behind all of those examples. Where is this lack of logic that you speak of?

And here you continue to say that Elsa's not learned anything from the first film, yet you have yet to deliver a single piece of actual evidence from the movie that supports this claim. Literally every example you've shared is, in fact, an example that shows her growth since the first movie, yet you're using it as evidence that she somehow hasn't grown?

[Dukefrukem]

And here's the set-up:

A frozen memory appears, showing King Runeard attacking the Northuldra leader off guard, as the Northulda leader's voice can be heard saying that the dam is hurting the forest.

Dur... wHaT cOuLd ThAt MeAn?!? :eek: :eek: :eek:

Ugh, another prime of example of TERRIBLE execution. You can barely make out what he's saying.

Here's what it sounds like to me.

"She dare! So Weak <inaudible> So they will have to turn to me. <inaudible> hurting the forest!".

Gooling the script I can now see it says

You see, the Dam will weaken their lands
So they will have to turn to me
King Runeard, the Dam is hurting the forest!

Read more: https://www.springfieldspringfield.co. uk/movie_script.php?movie=frozen-ii

[TGM]

I never had an issue hearing any of the dialogue in that scene. Sounds more like an issue with your sound system or setups than the movie. *shrug*

[Dukefrukem]

Except that there is logic behind all of those examples. Where is this lack of logic that you speak of?

And here you continue to say that Elsa's not learned anything from the first film, yet you have yet to deliver a single piece of actual evidence from the movie that supports this claim. Literally every example you've shared is, in fact, an example that shows her growth since the first movie, yet you're using it as evidence that she somehow hasn't grown?

I've already explained this.

"This is my fault, they were
looking for answers about me"

You are not responsible
for their choices, Elsa

"No, just their deaths"

Stop. No


It's the same.

[Dukefrukem]

I never had an issue hearing any of the dialogue in that scene. Sounds more like an issue with your sound system or setups than the movie. *shrug*

Heh, the person cut the scene entirely out of this video because the dialog is completely indistinguishable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY1lxVFuqhE

[TGM]

I've already explained this.

"This is my fault, they were
looking for answers about me"

You are not responsible
for their choices, Elsa

"No, just their deaths"

Stop. No


It's the same.

Except that my explanation that I've now posted twice completely disputes your claims that it's the same.

What she's experiencing is a very human reaction for a person to have in a moment such as this. This isn't character regression. It's realistic depiction. And that she's able to pick herself back up and keep moving forward so quickly afterwards shows just how much she's grown, and how much confidence she's gained since the first movie.

[TGM]

Heh, the person cut the scene entirely out of this video because the dialog is completely indistinguishable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY1lxVFuqhE

This wasn't how you watched the movie, was it? Because, you know, this is one of those clips where they cut out about 10 or so seconds every 10 or so seconds in, in order to not get caught for posting copyright material. :\

[Dukefrukem]

Except that my explanation that I've now posted twice completely disputes your claims that it's the same.

What she's experiencing is a very human reaction for a person to have in a moment such as this. This isn't character regression. It's realistic depiction. And that she's able to pick herself back up and keep moving forward so quickly afterwards shows just how much she's grown, and how much confidence she's gained since the first movie.

Whatever explanation you're trying to pull from the scene is moot. It's the same arch as the first film which was my entire point to begin with. Not the reasons for the actions.

[Dukefrukem]

This wasn't how you watched the movie, was it? Because, you know, this is one of those clips where they cut out about 10 or so seconds every 10 or so seconds in, in order to not get caught for posting copyright material. :\

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PdyldUUqFo

5:17

[transmogrifier]

I do believe that this may be the most heated discussion over Frozen II on the internet. Congrats guys!

[TGM]

Whatever explanation you're trying to pull from the scene is moot. It's the same arch as the first film which was my entire point to begin with. Not the reasons for the actions.

It's really not though. It's not even close to the same arc. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PdyldUUqFo

5:17

Even if you couldn't hear them clearly in that moment (which I still can, so again, an issue with your settings or something?), it's in fact the second time these two lines of dialogue are being spoken. We clearly hear those lines of dialogue in the scene prior as well, when Elsa is watching the memories for the first time. So even if you only picked up pieces of it in this scene, you still should've been able to get enough context of what they were saying to recall what they literally just said only moments before.

[TGM]

I do believe that this may be the most heated discussion over Frozen II on the internet. Congrats guys!

https://i.imgur.com/zxzCbTs.gif

[TGM]

Marathoned all 4 Frozen movies today. And it was wonderful. :cool:

[Dukefrukem]

huh?

[TGM]

huh?

The two features, and the two shorts. ;)

[Peng]

Willingly watching “Olaf’s Frozen Adventure” more than once: braver than the troops.

[TGM]

Willingly watching “Olaf’s Frozen Adventure” more than once: braver than the troops.

I actually quite like it, even if you can tell that it's a different creative team behind it. It may be sillier than the others, but its humor that mostly works, and the music is still quite good all the same. "When We're Together" is up there among the series' best songs. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[TGM]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WL7qlys-Ac

[Philip J. Fry]

Finally got my review written up, which I should be posting either later tonight or tomorrow. But for now, 2010s Walt Disney Animation Studios films ranked:
Frozen
Frozen II
Zootopia
Tangled
Moana
Big Hero 6
Wreck-It Ralph
Ralph Breaks the Internet
Winnie the PoohZootopia
Tangled
Moana
Frozen
Big Hero 6
Wreck It Ralph
Ralph Breaks the Internet
Frozen II

I've not seen Winnie the Pooh.

[Dukefrukem]

Holy shit. I just learned that Jonathan Groff, (voices Kristoff,) is also King George from Hamilton.

What a fucking waste of a casting in these movies when you get that kind of performance out of him in Hamilton, and smother him with dumb Reindeer songs in these films.

Bad Disney! Bad!

[[ETM]]

He did Frozen way before Hamilton.
You do know that he's also the lead in Mindhunter? :D

Sent from my Mi 9 Lite using Tapatalk

[Dukefrukem]

;623841']He did Frozen way before Hamilton.
You do know that he's also the lead in Mindhunter? :D

Sent from my Mi 9 Lite using Tapatalk

I know. And my point is did Disney even know what kind of talent they had before he absolutely shined in Hamilton? He's a stud. And they use him sparingly.

[Mal]

Groff gets to sing a few songs in a PRINCESS movie starring Idina Menzel. He should be so lucky.

[[ETM]]

I know. And my point is did Disney even know what kind of talent they had before he absolutely shined in Hamilton? He's a stud. And they use him sparingly.Well, he was also in Glee, so they knew. Could be because he's very much openly gay?

Sent from my Mi 9 Lite using Tapatalk

[Philip J. Fry]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dooAjI6yOhg
Hah! This is amazing.