PDA

View Full Version : The Irishman (Some old guy)



Mal
11-12-2019, 04:39 PM
http://www.brooklynvegan.com/files/2019/10/the-irishman.jpg

Ezee E
11-12-2019, 08:50 PM
Hear he hates Marvel.

Mal
11-13-2019, 04:17 AM
Phenomenal from start to finish. Endlessly engrossing and impressive from all angles. The cgi (yes, its good!), the costumes, the production design- no stone is unturned nor slighted. The cast is brilliant, always entertaining, with even the bit players feeling meant to be there- like Marty hand picked them himself. Our main trio of De Niro, Pacino, and Pesci give their all with such ease and (excluding Pacino) capture a certain reserved fire that most Scorsese movies tend to touch upon from their loyal, connected, and stoic male leads. Its akin to Casino and Goodfellas, predictably.... but the narration from De Niro's Frank gives it some crafty gravitas in this tale of a truck driver working his way up the ladder to be associated with Pacino's Hoffa (who is exuberant and a little crazed in a killer performance). Major applause for Thelma Schoomaker for bringing this together. I will probably remember my theatrical experience for this one for quite some time.

Ezee E
11-20-2019, 12:15 AM
Surprised nobody's seen this yet.

I'll be there in a hour.

Ivan Drago
11-20-2019, 01:48 AM
Seeing on Saturday.

Ezee E
11-20-2019, 06:08 AM
Glad I saw this in the theater.

It's definitely quite something. Will need to reflect.

The last hour or so is what really makes it, but it's necessary to see everything that comes before it.

Was thinking this might be Scorsese's least "showy" movie, but I think Silence might still do that. This remains suspenseful as anything he's ever done without the typical rapid cutting and camera movements though.

transmogrifier
11-20-2019, 11:03 AM
Surprised nobody's seen this yet.

I'll be there in a hour.

Friday for me.

Ezee E
11-20-2019, 12:47 PM
I wonder how many meetings were had to get the title changed to "The Irishman."

Dukefrukem
11-20-2019, 02:28 PM
https://s3.amazonaws.com/pix.iemoji.com/images/emoji/apple/ios-12/256/crying-face.png

Ezee E
11-20-2019, 02:50 PM
https://s3.amazonaws.com/pix.iemoji.com/images/emoji/apple/ios-12/256/crying-face.png

You'll be able to see at the end of the month after Thanksgiving leftovers :)

Dukefrukem
11-20-2019, 04:45 PM
But I don't like waiting.

Ezee E
11-20-2019, 10:26 PM
But I don't like waiting.

Baby's first movie being The Irishman is some huge clout to have later in life.

Ivan Drago
11-24-2019, 02:56 AM
Baby's first movie being The Irishman is some huge clout to have later in life.

Truer words were never spoken.

I'm gonna be chewing on this for a while. It took me some time to adjust my expectations to a gangster film in Scorsese's career post-Silence, but The Irishman did a fantastic job of delving into the meticulousness of the gangster lifestyle, the cinematography framed the shootouts in a way that horrifies the audience as if they're across the street from them, and De Niro and Pesci delivered amazing performances full of powerful nuances, all the way up to the film's heartbreaking finish. It's a reflective, captivating film that as effective in informing the audience about the mafia's power as it is in critiquing it.

Ezee E
11-24-2019, 03:13 AM
The Pesci/DeNiro conversation in the cafe with no music and just the sounds of coffee cups clinking their dishes may be the best exchange of acting this year.

Grouchy
11-26-2019, 05:26 AM
I wonder how many meetings were had to get the title changed to "The Irishman."
Hahah I wondered about this as well, specially since Scorsese basically still gave it the I Heard You Paint Houses title card - it's way more prominent in the actual movie than The Irishman.

Just came back from this. Tomorrow is going to be a long day at work but I don't really care - it was worth seeing it on theaters.

Grouchy
11-27-2019, 05:05 AM
Ok, now my collected thoughts - this is just a beautiful work of art. The running time is controversial on its own merit, but it's justified because it's a story focused on how choices made in the past write the future, and the epicness of the whole thing reflects the weary journey of the main character. Frank Sheeran beating up the grocery store owner comes back to haunt him during the third act of the movie, and there are plenty of instances of very specific stuff (like the "more than a little concerned" line) paying off a couple of hours after it's set up. Superficially, the movie is similar to Goodfellas and Casino with the voice overs and dark mobster-related comedy, but it's different because it's completely focused on Frank Sheeran. Hoffa, Buffalino and the rest of the players are clearly seen through his point of view.

Besides that, the movie works at a meta level. De Niro has played mobsters through the years in The Godfather Part II and Once Upon a Time in America, but he has never yet looked so decrepit and remorseful. The scene where they drink grape juice with Pesci in the joint is almost a broad satire of their status as mobster superstars. I don't think I can provide a full review of this film yet because it's so rich and layered - suffice it to say that we're all very lucky to be living on the same universe and timeline as an artist such as Martin Scorsese.

Morris Schæffer
11-27-2019, 10:41 AM
Seeing it tonight in a theater!!

Irish
11-27-2019, 01:07 PM
I probably shouldn't have watched this when I was so tired, but I couldn't make head nor tails out of it. It struck me as 2 or 3 great performances wrapped in Scorsese's worst habits (a la "Casino") and a confirmation of every lame criticism people make about him as a filmmaker.

I'm curious what everyone else thought the movie was about. Not its plot, but its story and themes.

Idioteque Stalker
11-27-2019, 09:08 PM
I'm curious what everyone else thought the movie was about. Not its plot, but its story and themes.

Just finished. I'd say it's about the friction between 1. basic notions of right vs. wrong (Paquin) and 2. the moral constructs/codes of honor that govern people's lives (in this case, mostly wise guys and politicians).

Great movie. Wouldn't have minded an extra half hour or more.

Ezee E
11-28-2019, 12:24 AM
Rewatching this at home.

In the first ten minutes, my dog started chewing her chewtoy, had to check if I had the ingredients for my thanksgiving dish, and received a text.

Just like it was meant to be seen.

Philip J. Fry
11-28-2019, 04:03 AM
My boy Marty still has it. <3

Irish
11-28-2019, 06:37 AM
Thought this was an excellent take, btw: https://letterboxd.com/ryansfilmlog/film/the-irishman-2019/1/

Weems
11-28-2019, 01:46 PM
I found this shockingly dull, like The Aviator even more drained of purpose crossed with Once Upon a Time in America.

Morris Schæffer
11-28-2019, 03:42 PM
I liked it. Some random more negative thoughts:

1) the emotional payoff came, but it felt rather subdued. The movie feels like business sometimes. I didn't feel sadness, Sheeran chose this lifestyle, he felt too monotone to me to register as a fully human being. Ha, maybe because he literally wasn't. See #3.
2) It actually felt long, like it repeated itself. Sheeran meets new folks, kills some more new folks and rinse repeat. I dunno, didn't feel like it build towards something super satisfying. Perhaps that's actually in line with what the movie is about as conveyed in the link that Irish shared.
3) de-aging was distracting. First shot of de-aged De Niro driving a truck took me out of the movie immediately. I sort of got used to it afterwards, but you can tell something ain't right. De Niro's face just looks too implacably stoic all the time, with that lower lip of his locked firmly in one position.

Grouchy
11-28-2019, 05:13 PM
For me, at least, the first shot of young De Niro was indeed jarring and uncomfortable (it reminded me of The Polar Express) and made me afraid the entire film was going to feel like that, but as soon as his scene with Pesci started, I completely forgot it was there and started focusing only on following the story. Afterwards I wondered if they deliberately left the clumsiest CGI for the beginning.

Dukefrukem
11-28-2019, 08:50 PM
This movie is yikes.

Pop Trash
11-28-2019, 09:03 PM
I found it pretty fascinating and soul draining depressing. Scorsese sucks any of the "cool" out of the gangster life. Hits aren't sexy, just people running up and blamblam it's over. The most egregious of these is the hour or so leading up to Jimmy Hoffa's hit which lasts all of five seconds.

Anna Paquin's character is the all seeing, all knowing 'God' ... a bit like Bresson's Balthazar, but our inference is that of judgement rather than passive observance. Her Silence is deafening.

I found in interesting to learn that a lot of people think this guy's story is bullshit. Then I wondered how much of it matters. The script structure clearly lays out Frank as an unreliable narrator and the form matches the function with the CGI deaging putting these characters in a time purgatory where they are 40 going on 80. The Living Dead lurching around physical spaces with a grandpa gate making them deliberately awkward while doing gangsta shit.

I kept wondering if Scorsese knew if the story was potentially bullshit, why bother telling it? Is Frank trying to ascribe some meaning to his life by saying "yeah, I wacked Jimmy Hoffa" instead of just a bunch of low level goons no one cares about?

Dukefrukem
11-28-2019, 11:18 PM
Ya know. Scorsese has a lot of balls to call out other genre films, when his biggest movies are all the same. Call him the new J. J. Instead of fur coats falling off a truck it's meat. I'm kind glad I didn't see this in theaters now. I would have been annoyed through the first 30 minutes like I am now.

Grouchy
11-29-2019, 01:44 AM
I intended to see just a few minutes of this on Netflix to pass the time and ended up watching the whole thing again. Goddamn, what a masterpiece. I'd be shocked to see a better film this year. I discovered a lot of new things, of very emotional and poignant foreshadowing (the watch Hoffa gives to Sheeran, Hoffa's habit of sleeping with the door half open) but also the flow of the film is incredible - every scene leads so cleverly into the next one, accumulating detail after detail about the characters and the world they live in. It's so thematically rich, having a lot of things to say about friendship, the passage of time, moral codes, politics and hubris. It's also awesome how different it is in its tone from previous mob films by Scorsese. I believe it's intentionally closing the tethralogy he started with Mean Streets.

Dukefrukem
11-29-2019, 02:00 AM
every scene leads so cleverly into the next one,

Scenes are overly long and dull. I don't need a 10 minute discussion with Hoffa in Frank in bed together. The Editing was also wonky. We get too many cuts of several pieces of time thrown at you. Example: Kennedy getting elected, Hoffa yelling at the TV, the Christmas setting, the attorney General and, like we needed to remember who was narrating to us... a shot of Frank at the retirement home.

Pop Trash
11-29-2019, 03:00 AM
Goddamn, why are Marvel fans such snowflakes? A 77-year-old filmmaker isn't into superhero movies. Who cares? Scorsese was 21-years-old when Avengers #1 came out in 1963. He doesn't have any nostalgia for it. For the record, I think this film is only slightly better than Endgame and they both use a hell of a lot of CGI.

Dukefrukem
11-29-2019, 03:10 AM
Goddamn, why are Marvel fans such snowflakes? A 77-year-old filmmaker isn't into superhero movies. Who cares? Scorsese was 21-years-old when Avengers #1 came out in 1963. He doesn't have any nostalgia for it. For the record I think this film is only slightly better than Endgame and they both use a hell of a lot of CGI.

You should quote me if you want to talk to me instead of just rambling like a drunk guy outside a bar at 2am. This has nothing to do with Marvel or superheros. It's the hilarity of a 77 year old filmmaker clamoring publicly about something he's not into, while not really doing anything new and interesting. New paint. Same smell.

Skitch
11-29-2019, 04:54 AM
If Pops comments are pointed at Duke...I think I'd have to defend Duke here a bit. Dukes thoughts on the Irishman are hardly far off from the same comments of professional or net critics, either pro or con MCU leaners. You're going to get those kinds of comments when you stretch yourself in making a film this long. This is irrelevant to my personal thoughts on the Irishman (still got 40 minutes left).

Ezee E
11-29-2019, 05:18 AM
The Anna Paquin as a sort of "God / Angel of Judgment" character is a neat one to read. It's certainly there, with Sheeran trying to always please his way into her happiness / "gates of heaven," and instead it's just rejection and more time and loneliness.

Skitch
11-29-2019, 05:48 AM
Finished. I dont think I'm ready to judge this film yet. Between the deaging tech, extravagant runtime, and outside noise, I feel the first trip is just plot digestion. It will take another viewing or two for me to land anywhere; this was also true of several other Scorcese films.

Initial reactions:
- I understand if people are put off by the runtime
- There could definitely be some cuts at the end, post Hoffa this films grinds to a...grind
- The CGI didnt bother me, but ask me again in 2 years (see also Tron: Legacy)
- Going through all the emotions of loss that we havent had more Pesci in the last decade or more
- Didnt love or hate it. Could love or hate it next viewing
- CGI or no, they all have the body movements of old hunched over men

Morris Schæffer
11-29-2019, 10:26 AM
https://www.moviemaker.com/archives/news/joe-pesci-irishman-jfk-david-ferrie/

Haha

Skitch
11-29-2019, 10:50 AM
That brings up another point I considered when watching this, because I was wondering if certain friends of mine would even understand all the plot because of how entangled it all is...if you're not a student of history, go watch Hoffa and JFK before you watch Irishman. Those two films would be excellent primers and the three films are a triangle of all sides of those three perspectives of that entanglement of that era.

Irish
11-29-2019, 10:51 AM
Dukes thoughts on the Irishman are hardly far off from the same comments of professional or net critics, either pro or con MCU leaners

Where are these people and how to I find them? I've seen nothing but unadulterated praise, to the point where it's become annoying.

I feel like this movie has become a referendum on the whole Scorsese vs Marvel thing, and everyone needs to choose a side otherwise you're not a True Fan(tm) or Real Cinephile(tm).


- CGI or no, they all have the body movements of old hunched over men

This repeatedly threw me out of the movie. Particularly in the scene where DeNiro beats up the green grocer an literally kicks him to the curb. Frank is supposed to be in his mid-40s, I guess, but DeNiro moves like what he is --- a dude pushing 80.

The face-smoothing didn't bother me so much except I could never quite tell how old anyone was supposed to be. Most of the film takes place over a 20 year period but the characters didn't seem to age within that time frame.

Dukefrukem
11-29-2019, 11:10 AM
This repeatedly threw me out of the movie. Particularly in the scene where DeNiro beats up the green grocer an literally kicks him to the curb. Frank is supposed to be in his mid-40s, I guess, but DeNiro moves like what he is --- a dude pushing 80.

The face-smoothing didn't bother me so much except I could never quite tell how old anyone was supposed to be. Most of the film takes place over a 20 year period but the characters didn't seem to age within that time frame.

I said the same thing in my Letterboxd review. It's the same way Sam Jackson moved in Captain Marvel when he's supposed to be in his upper 20s or lower 30s.

transmogrifier
11-29-2019, 11:22 AM
I feel like this movie has become a referendum on the whole Scorsese vs Marvel thing, and everyone needs to choose a side otherwise you're not a True Fan(tm) or Real Cinephile(tm).


Team Scorsese all the way, baby!

(but yes, much like everything online these days, you have to nail your colors to the mast for every-fucking-thing, and it's tiring).

And the Letterboxd crew I follow (and r/movies) love this thing, so Skitch must be hanging out on Marvel forums or something.

Skitch
11-29-2019, 12:10 PM
And the Letterboxd crew I follow (and r/movies) love this thing, so Skitch must be hanging out on Marvel forums or something.

Definitely not. Just rando twitters and such. I'm not saying I've seen people hate it, just say its too long (in a manner that stuff was cut-able), its a repeat of stuff Scorsese has done before, etc.

Reminder: I'M not slagging the flick, just saying that I've seen similar comments to Duke's enough to not warrant name calling.

Skitch
11-29-2019, 12:13 PM
The face-smoothing didn't bother me so much except I could never quite tell how old anyone was supposed to be. Most of the film takes place over a 20 year period but the characters didn't seem to age within that time frame.

I would speculate the three timelines exist closer to a 50 year period.

Dukefrukem
11-29-2019, 12:15 PM
Team Scorsese all the way, baby!

(but yes, much like everything online these days, you have to nail your colors to the mast for every-fucking-thing, and it's tiring).

And the Letterboxd crew I follow (and r/movies) love this thing, so Skitch must be hanging out on Marvel forums or something.

It's the most skewed 4-5 star reviewed film on Letterboxd I've ever seen. I would say it's the Death Stranding of film but not in terms of rating. If it was directed by anyone else, the praise would be less profound.

megladon8
11-29-2019, 12:23 PM
Scorsese really should have cast some POC’s and trans actors.

Tired of this whitewashing.

If you don’t think Richard Ayoade would make a great Jimmy Hoffa, you’re basically Hitler and should go lull yourself.

Irish
11-29-2019, 12:46 PM
I would speculate the three timelines exist closer to a 50 year period.

The movie touches on other decades, but the bulk of the action takes place from about 1955 (shortly before Kennedy's election) to 1975 (Hoffa's disappearance).

The occasional captions stuck to one mobster or another said a lot of these guys died in the late 70s or early 80s, and by then the movie's story is definitely over. The rest of it, with funeral scenes or Frank in the nursing home, plays more like an epilogue.

My point was more that the CGI prohibits the characters from aging in normal ways. There's a big difference from somebody at 40 and somebody at 60 and you don't really see that on screen.

I mean, shit, look at any long running TV show in recent memory. Those might last 10 years and the actors look noticeably different from the start of the run to the end of it.

But in "The Irishman," everybody's appearance is oddly static -- plastic heads stuck on old man bodies.

Grouchy
11-29-2019, 01:22 PM
Eh, the last thing on my mind while watching this were goddamn Marvel superheroes and movies. I remember back when I was a kid I would have killed for the amount of superhero feature films that we have now, and now, I just want people to shut the fuck up about them. By the way, in The Departed, Jack Nicholson makes a gift of a Wolverine comic-book to young Matt Damon - I bet Scorsese would have excised that reference now hahah.


https://www.moviemaker.com/archives/news/joe-pesci-irishman-jfk-david-ferrie/

Haha
That's awesome! I haven't seen JFK to be honest - I know, I know. I resent a little how that article describes Jimmy Hoffa as a "mob boss". I know the similarities are part of the point of the film, but I think not mentioning on an article that he was a union leader is kind of derogatory of all unions.

Grouchy
11-29-2019, 01:35 PM
Scenes are overly long and dull. I don't need a 10 minute discussion with Hoffa in Frank in bed together. The Editing was also wonky. We get too many cuts of several pieces of time thrown at you. Example: Kennedy getting elected, Hoffa yelling at the TV, the Christmas setting, the attorney General and, like we needed to remember who was narrating to us... a shot of Frank at the retirement home.
Well, I obviously disagree. The lenght of some scenes is a deliberate choice, I think. For example, in Frank's homage party, Russell and Sheeran trying to talk sense into Hoffa are obviously long scenes for any film, but I think it increases the suspense and underlines the man's stubbornness. At the same time, Hoffa and Sheeran's scenes together in hotel bedrooms or hanging out with their families are telling of their relationship and how it grew into a sort of friendship. The slowest point of the movie might be after Hoffa is killed, but then again, it's very crude and raw about what it means to grow old and geriatric in a world of regret, and the time it takes reflects the time the character spends thinking about the past. "What kind of person makes a phone call like that?" indeed.

I went to the theater with a friend and we're both huge Scorsese fans. He liked the movie a lot but felt some scenes could have been cut. Still, when we started considering which ones could be cut... there aren't any. Every scene in this film makes a contribution, however small, to the whole canvas.


- CGI or no, they all have the body movements of old hunched over men
On my second watch, I kind of have to agree with this. But the technological miracle is otherwise so awesome that I'm willing to cut the movie some slack. I mean, a 70-year-old man can't quite walk like he walked forty years ago. He just can't. Only time will tell how this movie will hold up, special effects wise.

transmogrifier
11-29-2019, 02:01 PM
Definitely not. Just rando twitters and such.

There's your problem - I hate Twitter with a passion and have never used it.

Pop Trash
11-29-2019, 02:17 PM
The Anna Paquin as a sort of "God / Angel of Judgment" character is a neat one to read. It's certainly there, with Sheeran trying to always please his way into her happiness / "gates of heaven," and instead it's just rejection and more time and loneliness.

You really see this if you rewatch it. Yet another reason why Schoonmaker's editing is *chef's kiss*. It starts with the beatdown at the corner store which Scorsese frames in a wide, single take shot w/o any coverage, *except* for one split second on his daughter's face. The rest of the film follows this pattern with slight, subtle cutaways to his daughter's face at certain moments. Always watching. Always judging. It's telling also that his daughter really likes Jimmy Hoffa because he seems to be helping people in an egalitarian, collectivist way (she's too young and naive to understand that he is corrupt as well). She does not like anyone else her father is connected too and eventually cuts off all ties to her father.

Irish
11-29-2019, 03:52 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGlB3G8-pxc

^ Rodrigo Prieto, DoP on "Wolf of Wall Street," "Silence," and "The Irishman," reflect on Scorsese's shooting style.

Skitch
11-29-2019, 04:40 PM
The movie touches on other decades, but the bulk of the action takes place from about 1955 (shortly before Kennedy's election) to 1975 (Hoffa's disappearance).

The occasional captions stuck to one mobster or another said a lot of these guys died in the late 70s or early 80s, and by then the movie's story is definitely over. The rest of it, with funeral scenes or Frank in the nursing home, plays more like an epilogue.

My point was more that the CGI prohibits the characters from aging in normal ways. There's a big difference from somebody at 40 and somebody at 60 and you don't really see that on screen.

I mean, shit, look at any long running TV show in recent memory. Those might last 10 years and the actors look noticeably different from the start of the run to the end of it.

But in "The Irishman," everybody's appearance is oddly static -- plastic heads stuck on old man bodies.

I can't outright disagree with anything here. As I said before, I will have to see how I feel on repeat viewings.

Skitch
11-29-2019, 04:42 PM
There's your problem - I hate Twitter with a passion and have never used it.

I don't know if its my problem...people on the internet talk about things. Twitter doesn't really bother me, I ignore most of the silliness and go about my day. But some of the people I follow who are in the industry have said those things.

Ezee E
11-29-2019, 05:36 PM
You really see this if you rewatch it. Yet another reason why Schoonmaker's editing is *chef's kiss*. It starts with the beatdown at the corner store which Scorsese frames in a wide, single take shot w/o any coverage, *except* for one split second on his daughter's face. The rest of the film follows this pattern with slight, subtle cutaways to his daughter's face at certain moments. Always watching. Always judging. It's telling also that his daughter really likes Jimmy Hoffa because he seems to be helping people in an egalitarian, collectivist way (she's too young and naive to understand that he is corrupt as well). She does not like anyone else her father is connected too and eventually cuts off all ties to her father.

Precisely. The exchange of a authentic thanks for the ice cream sundae vs forced thanks for the ice skates, and later none at all for the $100

Grouchy
11-29-2019, 05:36 PM
Has anyone made a meme yet with "don't hassle the Hoffa"? I'd like to see that.

Ezee E
11-29-2019, 05:37 PM
Also, yes, the scene at the market was clearly a problem in having a 80-year old man move like he's in his 40's. Unlike most Scorsese violence, this one didn't affect me like it really should have.

Oddly, as I'm watching a second time, the CGI hasn't been a problem for me at all like it was for others.

Dukefrukem
11-29-2019, 05:52 PM
Also, yes, the scene at the market was clearly a problem in having a 80-year old man move like he's in his 40's. Unlike most Scorsese violence, this one didn't affect me like it really should have.

Oddly, as I'm watching a second time, the CGI hasn't been a problem for me at all like it was for others.

I hated that scene without the CGI. What was the initial point of him bringing his daughter down there other than to service the script for the finale payoff with Paquin? Frank was already way too distant from his daughter for it to matter to him to bring her along (this is backed up when he attempts to reconcile)... and yet that street side beat down is the only real intimate scene with his daughter. The rest of the scenes are between his daughter and Pesci, with Frank as the third wheel.

Grouchy
11-29-2019, 06:01 PM
I hated that scene without the CGI. What was the initial point of him bringing his daughter down there other than to service the script for the finale payoff with Paquin? Frank was already way too distant from his daughter for it to matter to him to bring her along (this is backed up when he attempts to reconcile)... and yet that street side beat down is the only real intimate scene with his daughter. The rest of the scenes are between his daughter and Pesci, with Frank as the third wheel.
Huh, no, dude, come on. Frank is clearly not a guy in touch with his emotions. He obviously cares a lot about his daughters, he just doesn't know how to relate to a child, in contrast with Hoffa who is an expert at getting all sorts of people to care for him. My guess is that he simply brought the kid along so she could point out the aggressor. The thought of her becoming traumatized didn't enter his head at all.

Grouchy
11-29-2019, 06:01 PM
Also, this is probably the best featurette about The Irishman so far, and I'm watching them all. What he says about his meeting with Frank Serpico is gold.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2KgrVf_1zQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2KgrVf_1zQ

Ezee E
11-29-2019, 06:12 PM
I hated that scene without the CGI. What was the initial point of him bringing his daughter down there other than to service the script for the finale payoff with Paquin? Frank was already way too distant from his daughter for it to matter to him to bring her along (this is backed up when he attempts to reconcile)... and yet that street side beat down is the only real intimate scene with his daughter. The rest of the scenes are between his daughter and Pesci, with Frank as the third wheel.

And Hoffa gets to dance with her, but Frank doesn't.

It's pretty much the key scene to their relationship. Maybe the relationship could exist without it, but Frank knows that's where the disconnect started.

Pop Trash
11-29-2019, 06:14 PM
I didn't get the court scene when he is "shot" (or whatever was going on there)? The guy shot him with a bb gun for some reason? Or was it a real gun that misfired? Why? Who was that guy? I take it that was based on a real life incident.

I also didn't get who was the guy that was shot in super slo mo in a parade by the Black assassin. He seemed important since Scorsese felt the need to have a dragged out slo motion scene of his death.

Pop Trash
11-29-2019, 06:19 PM
Has anyone made a meme yet with "don't hassle the Hoffa"? I'd like to see that.

Frank having a "WHERE'S JIMMY HOFFA? DIAL 1-800 ... " bumper sticker on his car is a nice touch. Made me lulz.

Ezee E
11-29-2019, 06:27 PM
I didn't get the court scene when he is "shot" (or whatever was going on there)? The guy shot him with a bb gun for some reason? Or was it a real gun that misfired? Why? Who was that guy? I take it that was based on a real life incident.

I also didn't get who was the guy that was shot in super slo mo in a parade by the Black assassin. He seemed important since Scorsese felt the need to have a dragged out slo motion scene of his death.

I'm about to hit this portion in my second rewatch, but I didn't get it either. There's a lot of Hoffa History that I'm simply not privy to, and this is part of it, and maybe the draggiest part of the movie.

I did gather that the gun simply jammed though.

Idioteque Stalker
11-29-2019, 07:46 PM
My guess is that he simply brought the kid along so she could point out the aggressor. The thought of her becoming traumatized didn't enter his head at all.

I felt he intended it to be empowering for her to watch. But of course he takes it too far.

Dukefrukem
11-29-2019, 08:11 PM
I didn't get the court scene when he is "shot" (or whatever was going on there)? The guy shot him with a bb gun for some reason? Or was it a real gun that misfired? Why? Who was that guy? I take it that was based on a real life incident.

I also didn't get who was the guy that was shot in super slo mo in a parade by the Black assassin. He seemed important since Scorsese felt the need to have a dragged out slo motion scene of his death.

Something that added nothing and could have been completely cut from the film. I thought maybe it would come back to how he taught his son not to run from a gun... (maybe in a struggle with Frank?) but it didn't.

Ezee E
11-29-2019, 08:20 PM
I felt he intended it to be empowering for her to watch. But of course he takes it too far.

Exactly what the intention was.

You look at 90% of other gangster movies, and the child would feel protected and probably even admire her father for what happened. Different result.

Grouchy
11-29-2019, 10:17 PM
Frank having a "WHERE'S JIMMY HOFFA? DIAL 1-800 ... " bumper sticker on his car is a nice touch. Made me lulz.
Hahah yeah that was priceless.

I think Scorsese felt obliged to show those two assassination attempts because they were a big part of the real story and probably a huge deal at the time, coming out of the JFK assassination. I'm not even a US person so my knowledge of Hoffa's history is of course limited, but the screenplay itself mentions how the facts about his life are at best only casually known by young people even during Sheeran's lifetime. In any case, I feel The Irishman is a lot more self-explanatory than Once Upon a Time in Hollywood which only works if you know the facts of the Tate-LaBianca case.

transmogrifier
11-30-2019, 01:18 AM
Ya know. Scorsese has a lot of balls to call out other genre films, when his biggest movies are all the same..

Scorsese this decade: Shutter Island, Hugo, The Wolf of Wall Street, Silence, The Irishman. Yes, all the same. Not like the bountiful diverse feast of Marvel.

Ezee E
11-30-2019, 01:45 AM
Scorsese's biggest three have to be considered Goodfellas, Taxi Driver, and Raging Bull right?

If it's by gross: Wolf of Wall Street, Shutter Island, and The Departed

Dukefrukem
11-30-2019, 03:22 AM
Scorsese this decade: Shutter Island, Hugo, The Wolf of Wall Street, Silence, The Irishman. Yes, all the same. Not like the bountiful diverse feast of Marvel.

Still haven't gotten through Silence yet, and Hugo is awful...Wolf of Wall Street is Goodfellas set in the 90s...and Shutter Island was last decade. I'm totally nitpicking here, but you already knew what I meant. That's kind why I said his "biggest" movies.


Scorsese's biggest three have to be considered Goodfellas, Taxi Driver, and Raging Bull right?

If it's by gross: Wolf of Wall Street, Shutter Island, and The Departed

I would have said Goodfellas, Casino, Departed.

transmogrifier
11-30-2019, 03:26 AM
Hell, look at Scorsese in the 80s:
Raging Bull, The King of Comedy, After Hours, The Color of Money, The Last Temptation of Christ. Those are five pretty different fucking movies.
90s: GoodFellas, Cape Fear, The Age of Innocence, Casino, Kundun, Bringing Out the Dead. Yes, Casino and Goodfellas share a number of similarities, but look at the films that came before and after it!

I honestly not sure how Duke can argue with a straight face that all Scorsese films are the same, even his "big" ones, whatever that means. Maybe he just thinks if he says it often enough, it will magically become true :)

Dukefrukem
11-30-2019, 03:29 AM
Hell, look at Scorsese in the 80s:
Raging Bull, The King of Comedy, After Hours, The Color of Money, The Last Temptation of Christ. Those are five pretty different fucking movies.
90s: GoodFellas, Cape Fear, The Age of Innocence, Casino, Kundun, Bringing Out the Dead. Yes, Casino and Goodfellas share a number of similarities, but look at the films that came before and after it!

I honestly not sure how Duke can argue with a straight face that all Scorsese films are the same, even his "big" ones, whatever that means. Maybe he just thinks if he says it often enough, it will magically become true :)

No I'm just being overly cynical.

transmogrifier
11-30-2019, 03:35 AM
No I'm just being overly cynical.

Fair enough :)

Grouchy
11-30-2019, 03:46 AM
My lifelong dream is meeting Scorsese, and if I actually did, I think I could do nothing but cry like a baby.

Dukefrukem
11-30-2019, 04:02 AM
My lifelong dream is meeting Scorsese, and if I actually did, I think I could do nothing but cry like a baby.

Careful. You're not allowed to admit you're a fan of anything otherwise you'll be a biased snowflake and your option struck from the record.

Pop Trash
11-30-2019, 04:12 AM
Careful. You're not allowed to admit you're a fan of anything otherwise you'll be a biased snowflake and your option struck from the record.

I wasn't only directing my complaint to you, but the overall whinefest from Marvel fanboys that their billion dollar box office, beloved imdb top 100 film, 4.0 on letterboxd, might DARE be "meh, it's not my thing" by an influential director.

If it makes you feel any better I don't think Endgame and The Irishman are entirely dissimilar: massively expensive budgets, lots of CGI, a 3 hour (or more) runtime that is never boring and feels earned, a culmination of a genre, something of a memory piece hopscotching around with linear time, closure on an era.

Ezee E
11-30-2019, 04:31 AM
Scorsese was in Telluride this year, and our paths never crossed :|

Pop Trash
11-30-2019, 04:39 AM
Scorsese was in Telluride this year, and our paths never crossed :|

My old friend Ari Aster is having a mutual love fest with Scorsese and I'm jealous frankly. I want Scorsese to name drop me in the New York Times as TruCinema™.

Skitch
11-30-2019, 09:57 AM
Am I the only one outraged at calling Hugo awful? That movie is a delight, you monster! :p

TGM
11-30-2019, 02:02 PM
Hugo was indeed great, yes. ;)

Dukefrukem
11-30-2019, 05:16 PM
I wasn't only directing my complaint to you, but the overall whinefest from Marvel fanboys that their billion dollar box office, beloved imdb top 100 film, 4.0 on letterboxd, might DARE be "meh, it's not my thing" by an influential director.


I've already made myself clear I don't care about the comments in a vacuum. People shouldn't be forced to like things, let alone shit made for the masses. I find the comments less meaningful NOW after having watching the Irishman which is essentially a re-tread of the same organized crime tropes that the same director has already done, done again and done again. Does he have a 5th in him? Same actors too. I mean... I've heard of people stuck in their time before...

Morris Schæffer
11-30-2019, 05:18 PM
Hugo is magical.

Grouchy
11-30-2019, 05:30 PM
Am I the only one outraged at calling Hugo awful? That movie is a delight, you monster! :p
Hugo is beautiful. And whoever thinks Irishman is the same movie as Goodfellas or Casino wasn't paying attention to any of those.

Skitch
11-30-2019, 05:35 PM
I get what Duke is saying, but for me personally I'd rather have 5 Scorcese gangster retreads than another Shutter Island or Wolf of Wall Street. Those were merely fine, while I enjoy his gangster eye more.

Dukefrukem
11-30-2019, 06:05 PM
Hugo is beautiful. And whoever thinks Irishman is the same movie as Goodfellas or Casino wasn't paying attention to any of those.

Oh please. It's literally the same structure from start to finish. Character narration over beginning, height, and end of crime syndicate with sprinkled in sweeping zooms, all of which end untimely and raw.

Grouchy
11-30-2019, 07:09 PM
Yeah, but... the content is not the same. With that criterion, every Fellini, every Bergman, every Woody Allen movie is the same.

Ezee E
11-30-2019, 07:23 PM
I can buy Goodfellas/Casino/Irishman as a trilogy of sorts. Wolf of Wall Street can basically be labeled into this.

Departed is a totally different thing though.

But this is like 10-20% of his movies...

Ezee E
11-30-2019, 07:49 PM
Rewatched a second time (over 3 parts because of time and things to do) and it definitely holds up. The relationships of all parties is what strikes me the most. Sheeran wants to make everyone happy, but never really contributes anything on his end unless it's violence.

The Jimmy Hoffa assassination attempt does seem kind of added on. It's helpful to build up his character, but I think he has enough clout with his position at Sheeran's party and battle with the Kennedy's that he'd still be well-established.

Pesci's silent but deadly approach might just be as scary as he is in Casino as a ruthless killer. There's never a way to change his mind.

Philip J. Fry
11-30-2019, 07:52 PM
Hugo is magical.It is a quality film.

Irish
11-30-2019, 08:12 PM
Scorsese has about ~65 directing credits and has made ~5 movies in the gangster genre.

"The Departed" is similar to his other films because it touches on several of Scorsese's favorite themes, around personal identity, the nature of work, and toxic forms of ambition.

I think Duke is sorta half right. Scorsese's docu-fiction technique is awfully tiring but "The Irishman" also contains so many other elements that it's very clearly apart from his earlier work.

He shot this with no flash, no luxury, and limited violence. The movie doesn't revel in machismo for the sake of machismo ("Do I amuse you?", "Get your shine box.") There's none of the aspirational-yet-morally-queasy consumerism of "Goodfellas," "Casino," or "The Wolf of Wall Street."

I dig that, at least theoretically, even though I didn't think much of the movie on the whole. Mostly because I don't think 2+ hours of gangster minutiae justifies the film's obvious and superficial payoff.

Pop Trash
11-30-2019, 09:00 PM
Rewatched a second time (over 3 parts because of time and things to do) and it definitely holds up. The relationships of all parties is what strikes me the most. Sheeran wants to make everyone happy, but never really contributes anything on his end unless it's violence.

The Jimmy Hoffa assassination attempt does seem kind of added on. It's helpful to build up his character, but I think he has enough clout with his position at Sheeran's party and battle with the Kennedy's that he'd still be well-established.

Pesci's silent but deadly approach might just be as scary as he is in Casino as a ruthless killer. There's never a way to change his mind.

I watched it again too. It is pretty great. I'm too much of a contrarian to be like FILM OF THE YEAR but I can see why some feel that way. I enjoy that it deliberately subverts crime and gangsta shit to be the moral abyss that it is (w/o ever being preachy). Joe Pesci the second time around is even more revealing. The first time around I didn't realize how important that breakfast convo at the empty Howard Johnson is. Pesci is like "it's gunna happen" and arranges for Frank to do the wacking. I have a feeling Al Pacino is going to get nominated in supporting for a more showy performance, but I actually like Pesci acting against type even more.

Dukefrukem
11-30-2019, 09:03 PM
I have a feeling Al Pacino is going to get nominated in supporting for a more showy performance, but I actually like Pesci acting against type even more.

This I DO agree with.

Skitch
11-30-2019, 09:06 PM
Pesci was sooooo good. I vote for him to win if only it convinces us to take more roles. btw, anyone watch the conversation bit on Netflix? Made me inclined to believe half that aging budget was spent on old aging instead of young aging.

Ezee E
11-30-2019, 10:51 PM
The Howard Johnson breakfast scene is my favorite scene in the entire movie.

Although discussing fish in a car is a close second. First time I saw it, I had no idea how things would play out.

Grouchy
12-02-2019, 10:47 PM
Scorsese's docu-fiction technique is awfully tiring
I think you might be demonstrating a failure to show appreciation.

Irish
12-02-2019, 11:29 PM
???

what

Skitch
12-02-2019, 11:44 PM
lol

Wryan
12-03-2019, 03:04 AM
I was hoping Pacino would bring something more to this beyond his usual. He's as watchable as ever, but I dug De Niro and Pesci's work far more. The blue eyes brought me out more than the de-aging stuff. The scene where Frank is beating up the grocer is shockingly bad given how obviously old De Niro looks and moves. Like they looked at that and just...kept it? There is a small handful of superlative conversations in here though, all the more for how quiet they usually are and how drawn out. For what it's worth, my dad, stepmom and grandmother all watched this with me over the course of one night, with a brief break for dinner. They all usually start conking out or dozing around 9:00 or 9:30 p.m., but they all stayed awake to finish it by around 10:30 p.m. They all enjoyed it very much. Maybe it doesn't require so much from the viewer, but it mostly worked for me. Loved the meeting in Miami and, really, any time Pesci had to talk to someone for one reason or another. Kinda wasted Keitel though.

Ezee E
12-03-2019, 03:49 PM
Yeah. Keitel's role didn't have much to attract starpower. I'll agree to that.

Re: DeNiro grocery scene. With all the CGI used, you'd think they'd be able to use a stuntdouble and CGI DeNiro's face on him. This is a scene that's certainly gotten attention across the globe, even from its defenders.

Dukefrukem
12-03-2019, 04:40 PM
Yeah. Keitel's role didn't have much to attract starpower. I'll agree to that.

Re: DeNiro grocery scene. With all the CGI used, you'd think they'd be able to use a stuntdouble and CGI DeNiro's face on him. This is a scene that's certainly gotten attention across the globe, even from its defenders.

It looks so bad.

1200928385616228353

Wryan
12-03-2019, 05:03 PM
It's like he has red paint on the bottom of his shoe and he's patting it onto the guy's hand so it looks like blood/an injury.

Pop Trash
12-03-2019, 07:17 PM
There's some problems with that scene but some things I really like about it ...

1) fights in real life are never how they play out in the movies; they are awkward, kicks don't connect, people think they look like Van Damme but look closer to ... well ... 2k19 De Niro

2) how Scorsese shoots the entire thing in one wide take with the exception of the split second close-up on his daughter. This is hugely important throughout the course of the film and the beatdown is the start of their strained relationship. I like that it doesn't have a bunch of stupid cuts in it.

Grouchy
12-03-2019, 07:44 PM
Yeah, I like that scene and I have no problems with the CGI in it, no more than in the rest of the film... I think it might be time to admit I'm a fanboy, though. Marty is my Marvel.

One thing that occurs to me... If that scene had a different actor playing the character's body language like it has been suggested on the thread... How fair would it be to still consider it a Bob De Niro performance? Shouldn't we start listing both actors for the same role in that case?

Dukefrukem
12-03-2019, 07:49 PM
Yeah, I like that scene and I have no problems with the CGI in it, no more than in the rest of the film... I think it might be time to admit I'm a fanboy, though. Marty is my Marvel.

One thing that occurs to me... If that scene had a different actor playing the character's body language like it has been suggested on the thread... How fair would it be to still consider it a Bob De Niro performance? Shouldn't we start listing both actors for the same role in that case?

Chris Evens was the only person credited for Captain America, and someone else played his body for the first half of the movie.

Ezee E
12-03-2019, 08:30 PM
Yeah, I like that scene and I have no problems with the CGI in it, no more than in the rest of the film... I think it might be time to admit I'm a fanboy, though. Marty is my Marvel.

One thing that occurs to me... If that scene had a different actor playing the character's body language like it has been suggested on the thread... How fair would it be to still consider it a Bob De Niro performance? Shouldn't we start listing both actors for the same role in that case?

Just like stunt actors do for a considerable amount of performances.

I can't buy Pop Trash's approach for a real life look. This one looked staged, was not convincing that the victim was in pain, and was almost comedic. The man falling through the glass worked, but everything afterwards....

Dukefrukem
12-03-2019, 10:50 PM
Amen. (https://nypost.com/2019/12/03/go-ahead-and-admit-it-the-irishman-is-terrible/)

Ezee E
12-03-2019, 11:52 PM
Amen. (https://nypost.com/2019/12/03/go-ahead-and-admit-it-the-irishman-is-terrible/)

lol. Certainly don't think it's the best of the century. Basically stopped reading her article right then.

Grouchy
12-04-2019, 12:42 AM
I tried to read her article but I got distracted by the awesome trailer above. What a great film.

Skitch
12-04-2019, 12:56 AM
As shown in this thread, I fit into neither of the two categories she claims in her first sentence are the only existing reviews of this film, therefore, the rest of her article must not be for me.

Hell, am I wrong in thinking even the most positive of reviews in this thread aren't without a little criticism? Is anyone calling this the movie of the century (obviously shes exaggerating), the decade...the year? One of the best of the year, okay, thats not really controversial, but anyone here falling all over themselves to die on the mountain that this is easily the best of 2019?

Irish
12-04-2019, 01:05 AM
One of the worst things about social media is that it incentizes outlets to troll for clicks.

One look at the author's wiki bio says it all ...

> Andrea Peyser is a columnist for the New York Post, known for her coverage of many scandals involving public figures. Her two books are Mother Love, Deadly Love: The Susan Smith Murders (1995) and Celebutards: The Hollywood Hacks, Limousine Liberals and Pandering Politicians Who Are Destroying America (2009).

Pop Trash
12-04-2019, 01:07 AM
Celebutards: The Hollywood Hacks, Limousine Liberals and Pandering Politicians Who Are Destroying America (2009)

Sounds great!

Dukefrukem
12-04-2019, 01:18 AM
Lol. That title is perfect.

But no I agree the Post is shit.

transmogrifier
12-04-2019, 01:59 AM
Amen. (https://nypost.com/2019/12/03/go-ahead-and-admit-it-the-irishman-is-terrible/)

Article starts off with a ridiculous strawman and false dichotomy and I noped out. Terrible writer. This is the state of your side of the issue, Duke? This represents your voice? For shame.

Dukefrukem
12-04-2019, 12:13 PM
Article starts off with a ridiculous strawman and false dichotomy and I noped out. Terrible writer. This is the state of your side of the issue, Duke? This represents your voice? For shame.

Man you guys really don't know my sense of humor after 10 years do you?

I just said the Post was shit in my last post.

Peng
12-27-2019, 04:01 PM
This is not exactly the inverse of GoodFellas so much as the sense of mundane existence in that film’s epilogue infecting backwards, to even the supposedly thrilling dishonest work. Henry Hill’s proud gangster glamour is now cloaked as dutiful day-to-day sturdy job. Rather than enjoying his work, our emotionally and morally void protagonist instead finds meaning in the strength of his criminal code, which turns out to be much more ethereal than the bond of family and friends he regrets to miss behind as he looks back. Robbie Robertson’s score accordingly exudes something akin to slow funereal march rather than mob exuberance, grounding early proceedings from ever taking on full thrill ride, and matching the progressively somber later parts perfectly.

That aching last hour, with the extraordinary (anti-)climax of Detroit and its aftermath reverberating to the present, slows down agonizingly and exquisitely, for time to contract and expand with the full weight of its mortality, and of Scorsese having your heart slowly ripped out with every minute passed. That hour feels as if the door of a coffin being gradually closed down, closing on Frank Sheeran, on our acute awareness in the mortality of him, of all the film’s aged makers and us, and of the legacy of this genre they have helped shape for decades. The one final, devastating touch is that Scorsese doesn’t close that coffin all the way, but he leaves the door open just a little bit, for you to imagine the remaining despair by yourself. 9/10

MadMan
02-09-2020, 08:51 AM
Well I did like it quite a bit. Having seen 6 of the 9 BP nominees I think it's the weakest out of the ones I have seen. Pacino was my favorite thing about the movie. Despite the length I wish I could have seen it on the big screen.