Avengers: Endgame (Russo Bros)

[Dukefrukem]

1120360904816619521

[MadMan]

There be spoilers everywhere, arrrrgh...

[Peng]

Was hoping to get into its Thai press screening like Infinity War last year (more because of the great atmosphere than the earliness), which would be around Tuesday morning by US time. But looks like it will be around Wednesday very early morning instead.

[Dukefrukem]

There are a lot of too good to be true tweets from the premiere last night.

[Skitch]

There are a lot of too good to be true tweets from the premiere last night.

From every new Marvel and DC premiere, it seems.

And I'm ready for the spoilers, I dont care. Bring it on.

[megladon8]

Trinity dies.

[[ETM]]

I'll spoil anyone who wants it when I see it in 24 hours.

Sent from my Mi A1 using Tapatalk

[Dukefrukem]

No you shall not Sir, take my ship!

[megladon8]

Bruce Willis was a ghost the whole time.

[Ezee E]

T'Challa, Spider-Man, Groot, etc were just playing hide & seek, and did a fine job at it too.

[Dukefrukem]

Hard to believe, but it's RT score is 97% at the moment. Infinity War was 86 for reference.

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/avengers_endgame/?cmp=TWRT_Movie_AvengersEndgam e_TomReveal

[Peng]

4 more hours for meeeee

This being 3 hours is a lot, but I’m at least slightly reassured by David Ehrlich the MCU skeptic, who gave Infinity War 2/5, giving this 4/5.

[Skitch]

That wouldn't encourage me.

[Morris Schæffer]

My excitement is close to bursting point. May 4th for me. There'll be bursting.

[Irish]

Holy shit, even crazy-ass Jeffrey Wells liked this and he hates most of the MCU

http://hollywood-elsewhere.com/2019/04/endgame-cuts-mustard/

[Wryan]

"'Endgame' Cuts Mustard."

Why is he the way he is?

[Peng]

Captain America: Civil War (2016)
The Avengers (2012)
Black Panther (2018)
Avengers: Endgame (2019)
Avengers: Age of Ultron (2015)
Guardians of the Galaxy (2014)
Captain America: The Winter Soldier (2014)
Thor (2011)
Iron Man 3 (2013)
Thor: Ragnarok (2017)
Avengers: Inifinity War (2018)
Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 (2017)
Iron Man (2008)
Spider-Man: Homecoming (2017)
Ant-Man and the Wasp (2018)
Doctor Strange (2016)
Captain America: The First Avenger (2011)
Iron Man 2 (2010)
Ant-Man (2015)
The Incredible Hulk (2008)
Thor: The Dark World (2013)
Captain Marvel (2019)

Man I so love Whedon's directing of these things it's a struggle whether to put Ultron or Endgame at #4, but for now the latter's ending tips the scale.

[Dukefrukem]

Man I so love Whedon's directing of these things it's a struggle whether to put Ultron or Endgame at #4, but for now the latter's ending tips the scale.

I hear that. This movie has got to really impress me for me to put it higher than Whedon's films.

[[ETM]]

I can't see it tonight after all, gotta rush packing for Japan... :( Maybe I'll catch it in Tokyo one of these days.

Sent from my Mi A1 using Tapatalk

[Pop Trash]

Avengers: Endgame (2019)
Avengers: Age of Ultron (2015)


If this only slightly better than Age of Ultron Imma want my three hours back.

[Dukefrukem]

If this only slightly better than Age of Ultron Imma want my three hours back.

We know (http://matchcut.artboiled.com/showthread.php?7440-Captain-Marvel-(Anna-Boden-Ryan-Fleck)/page2&p=601627&viewfull=1#post601627). ;)

[Peng]

Apprehensive about the 3 hours at first, as much as I like the MCU in general. But it turns out this longer running time is used more judiciously than Infinity War, which at times gets frantic to the point of exhaustion, and at the expense of cohesion, due to the need to set up a meeting point of so many characters and universes, all the while putting them through a plot of its own. It is an entertaining, impressive feat of traffic control more than a fully satisfying film on its own, although it has a nifty villain and a pretty amazing conclusion.

Using the longer time to explore the consequences of that ending fully, without the almost sweatily rushed speed of its precedessor, Endgame ebbs and flows as a film much better, with the added benefit of a cohesive, unifying thread of survival guilt and overwhelming regret running throughout. Infinity War's plot over character reverses to MCU's primary strength here, character over plot; a side benefit of the cast being reduced in half, perhaps.

This is especially true of the film's first hour, which, after a quick continuation of Infinity War's closer, luxuriates in the lives and emotional scars of the remaining Avengers mournfully (but not dourly, there is a lot of humor in this part without undercutting their grief), almost to the point of post-apocalyptic hangout vibe at times. This helps give so much heft to their risky (and fun) mission in the second hour, which structurally resembles Infinity War's fractured jumping around, but done better and more gracefully. It also grounds the often workmanlike, CGI battle royale in the third act into something more tangible.

Truthfully, after seeing many Avengers converging and fighting along each other in Infinity War, I admit to the sight losing some freshness in this second part (even though the Russos manage more striking and beautifully comic book-inspired compositions than last year). But this is why that first hour is so crucial; we see the Avengers in their lowest, in their attempts to rebuild some semblance of a life after devastating catastrophe, and in their intense, barely afforded hope for another chance to fix this. Those character-oriented details let us feel the gravitas of their mission in our gut along with them, even invests some of the more generic fights with real stake, and makes every crowd-pleasing moment and further gut punch land with considerable weight. Adding to it that this manages to plot a decade of MCU into something near a close, or at least a very satisfying stop point in this universe, and I'm almost tempted to rate this flawed film a little higher. By the time it resolves that first hour of regrets and despairs with a series of teary, touching goodbyes, this manages to be a worthy tribute to the universe it has built up indeed. 8/10

[megladon8]

Can someone PM me with all the major spoilers?

I’m not going to get to see this in the theatre and I’d rather have it all spoiled on my terms.

[Skitch]

Yeah I'm game for that too.

[Pop Trash]

What's the over / under on what will knock Endgame out of the #1 B/O spot? Aladdin? Godzilla 2 1/2? John Wick 3?... The Secret Life of Pets 2?? My money is on Aladdin in the 4th week. Don't think John Wick 3 can do it in the 3rd week.

[Ezee E]

Don't underestimate Pikachu lol.

[kuehnepips]

Movie's too long

[Dukefrukem]

Search for "Thanos" on Google and click the gauntlet on the right. You're welcome.

[Peng]

Search for "Thanos" on Google and click the gauntlet on the right. You're welcome.

That was cool.

Did you see it yet?

[Dukefrukem]

Seeing it in 12 hours. Invited the whole family. Making pizza tonight in a coal fire grille. (if it doesnt rain outside) Bought GotG vol 1 and 2 Mix + Rubberband Man.

This is an EVENT at the Duke Household.

[megladon8]

But you put a positive review?

[Dukefrukem]

I guess a little, sure. The last MCU movie i disliked to the core was Iron Man 2, and I've even re-watched that movie a number of times to the point where I feel like I have to reverse my grade on it. It's that damn father to son scene.

[Ezee E]

I guess a little, sure. The last MCU movie i disliked to the core was Iron Man 2, and I've even re-watched that movie a number of times to the point where I feel like I have to reverse my grade on it. It's that damn father to son scene.

Best part is the halfing of the results at the very end.

Making DC characters disappear is pretty funny since it's just by chance.

[megladon8]

No one is willing to spoil this for me?

[Skitch]

No one is willing to spoil this for me?

Yeah really I'm waiting

[Dukefrukem]

I'll send you guys something tomorrow morning if you want.

[Milky Joe]

No one is willing to spoil this for me?

turns out that was actually Bruce Willis the whole time!

[megladon8]

Well played.

[Peng]

The film’s wiki has updated some pretty thorough summary I think.

[Ezee E]

Hahaha. A fire alarm went off just before this started for me. To get it started, they had to replay all the previews. Made for nearly 4 hours at the theater...

[Ezee E]

Okay... so thoughts...

I'll do non-spoiler and spoilers, but, I figure if you're going into the poll thread that you SHOULD have already seen it, but since this is something unique, I'll do it just in case.

It works, but holy hell is this long. It certainly works as an end of a decade-long phase and in more ways than one. Will there ever be something similar to this again? I highly doubt it, and that includes Star Wars. I don't know that I was ever on the edge of my seat, but was certainly invested with what was going on.

I don't think the action nearly matches what occurred in Infinity War... In fact, it almost seems kind of low on action in a way, if that's possible. With a decade of movies and characters that we've come to really enjoy, it is nice seeing them interact as a group, but it does slog along more than it needs to.

This also has a Return of the King type of never-ending endings. However, I think the biggest fears that we all had for what could hurt this movie, don't really happen...

So now, spoilers...
Nice little surprise that Thanos gets worked right at the beginning, only to lead to an entirely different mission. That was clever.

I also do really like how they address time travel in this, and getting the villains involved again. However, the separation of the characters just doesn't feel nearly as intriguing or as thrilling as it really should be. The action is, dare I say it, even kind of weak. Luckily, the character interactions keep it intriguing, but there's never a fight that gets as entertaining as the ones in Infinity War. By the "final fight," it feels kind of a retread.

Thankfully, there are things on the line, and for a torch to be passed, and a fitting ending for some of the biggest Avengers, I can say that the Russo's and the MCU did it quite well. I can't say that it was predictable, and that's something in itself.

Phase 2... I hope they just start going in individual directions, unless there's some type of inclusion of X-Men/Apocalypse, because anything trying to build to this would just be feeble.

[Dukefrukem]

4 min!

[Ezee E]

Best thing about the movie and seeing it on Day 1, was not being spoiled by the five year jump and what happens the characters looks-wise.

So glad that wasn't shown in the previews.

Thor is now my favorite, and basically going to costar in Guardians 3?

[Dukefrukem]

Truly a superhero film of epic proportions; Kevin Feige wasn't exaggerating when he said this was the culmination of the 21 films that preceded it. It has everything, that couldn't be done in a single film. Callbacks, bookends, character arcs, fan service, and the most surprising thing of all, Carol Danvers is barely in this film and is NOT used as a Mary Sue. The three hour run time flies by as the first hour is dedicated to the dire circumstances of the snap with a heart-wrenching cold open. The second hour is hatching a brand new plan and the third is executing the plan. When I looked at my watch at the two hour mark, i couldn't believe how little action had occurred. But it's the last hour you don't want to miss. Unbelievable how much footage was not used from the trailers.

SPOILERS BELOW

The writers really, and I mean really, wanted to go nuts with this film and pair characters together that you would love to see interact. They do this with the 2nd hour's arch of inventing time travel with the help of Scott Lang and the Quantam realm. The film jumps ahead five years (and I agree how they kept this is a secret is beyond comprehension) Tony and Pepper are married with a five year old daughter, so Tony is reluctant to help the Avengers on their mission because he feels not only lucky to make it back to Earth ALIVE, but that Pepper wasn't turned to dust.

Banner and Hulk have made amends and become one known in the comics as Professor Hulk; Yes, Banner is fully Hulked out the whole movie.

Clint lost his whole family in the cold open, and has gone completely off the grid, murdering every thug, gang, and criminal with the ideology that if they didn't get snapped and his family did, then they definitely do not deserve to be left alive. It's brutally gory as there is an excellent fight scene between Ronin and Hiroyuki Sanada and an excellent reunion between Natasha and Clint.

It's the left field stuff that amazed me; what they did with Thor over the film (and hiding it from the public) was incredible. Thor, having not gone for the head in the previous film, feels so guilty, even after decapitating Thanos in the first 10 minutes of the film, has totally let himself go, physically and mentally. His humor is on the same path as Ragnarok but more embarrassing as the out of the shape Asgardian has founded a new town for his people in Norway called 'New Asgard' where Thor spends his days playing video games and drinking beer with Miek and Korg.

The time travel stuff was truly the best parts of the film for me; which is REALLY hard to say because there is so much gloomy stuff that re-watching this will be a chore. They specifically establish multiple times that time travel does not work in the Back to the Future sense. So if you go back and kill your grandfather, you yourself will not slowly fade away. Once you have that out of the way, you can do anything- which is what the Avengers plan to do. Go back to specific times in the past, where the infinity stones are closest together, bring them back and undo 'the Snapining'.

The Avengers realize that in 2012, there were three infinity stones in NYC (the Tesseract, Loki's Scepter and the Time Stone at the Sorcerer's Supreme Sanctum). So Cap, Iron Man, Bruce head back to 2012 to get all three which means, we have Professor Hulk trying to convince The Ancient One (with Tilda Swanson) to hand over the Eye of Agamotto. Really cool to see during the attack on NYC, The Ancient One defending the Sanctum by herself.

How about Rocket Racoon and Thor's mom interacting with Rocket and Thor trying to extract the Ether from Jane Foster?

But probably my favorite time travel moment was when Captain America meets his past self while trying to get Loki's sepeter and a quite hilarous elevator scene that MC will remember from my Favorite Moments of the MCU.

Once everyone complete's their mission and brings back the stones (and there are hiccups along the way, even after they accomplish this) it becomes chaos in the last hour. Every single MCU member comes into battle with some of the most iconic and 'love to see it' moments. One of them being an all-female stand against an army as big, if not bigger than the Infinity War one. But there is SO much going on in this scene that it will truly need a second viewing to absorb it all.

Biggest cheer in my screening was Captain lifting Molnair and the appearance of Pepper Potts in Iron Man armor.

Best retcon was the Loki death reversal in a very clever, time travely loophole.

Most emotional? Maybe Tony running into his father in the past. Or Steve seeing Peggy at the SHIELD base. Or Thor sitting down with his mother on the day of her death.

Saddest moment could be attributed to the death of Iron Man, the passing of the Captain America torch to Sam Wilson, the death of Black Widow, the reuniting of Peggy Carter and Steve Rogers,

After credits: There's no scene, but when the credits fade away, you hear what sounds like the banging of a hammer on metal. Tribute to Iron Man building his mach 1 suit? Or something else alluding to Phase 4? Possibly his daughter taking over as Iron Man? Ironheart possibly????

And yes, it looks like Thor is joining the AsGuardians of the Galaxy in Vol 3.

[Dukefrukem]

1.The Avengers
2.Captain America: The Winter Soldier
3.Avengers: Age of Ultron
4.Avengers: Infinity War
5. Avengers: Endgame
6.Iron Man
7.Thor: Ragnarok
8.Guardians of the Galaxy
9.Ant-Man and the Wasp
10.Spider-Man: Homecoming
11.Captain America: Civil War
12.Captain America: The First Avenger
13.Iron Man 3
14.Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2
15.Captain Marvel
16.Thor
17.Ant-Man
18.Black Panther
19.Doctor Strange
20.Iron Man 2
21.Thor: The Dark World
22.The Incredible Hulk

[Ezee E]

Yeah, my crowd quite loved the

Captain America wielding the hammer.

[Dukefrukem]

Spider-man: Far From Home is definitely taking place AFTER this film.

And I'm willing to bet we will now see a TON of MCU films taking place in the past. Black Widow's solo film being one of them.

The Eternals, will definitely.

[Peng]

Duke, I try to be cryptic in your MCU scenes thread with my "looking through the thread" comment about updating after Endgame, but I meant...


48 hours until my showing of Endgame.

#1. Lifting Mjolnir
Movie: Avengers: Age of Ultron
Summary: The team tries to lift Mjolnir

Why I’m mentioning it: Despite the internet rage about Stark wanting to re institute "Prima Nocta", or as the internet would call, a "rape joke", I just love the interaction with the team here. Especially when Cap moves the hammer a little, which makes Thor nervious. This joke is also bookended later in the film when Vision lifts Mjolnir. I'm really glad this party scene was as long as it is showing the informal interactions of the group together, as well as the inclusion of the Stan Lee "excelsior" line.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3bhQwY0KCY

My audience reaction was akin to Thor's at that moment ("I knew it!!!"). The whole theater erupted at the sight. So wild and exhilarating.

[Skitch]

Thanks Duke!

Didn't they announce a Black Widow movie? How is that going to work?

[Peng]

Thanks Duke!

Didn't they announce a Black Widow movie? How is that going to work?

I think it's confirmed even before Endgame that it's a prequel, taking place way back in the past.

[Skitch]

Ah.

[Dukefrukem]

My audience reaction was akin to Thor's at that moment ("I knew it!!!"). The whole theater erupted at the sight. So wild and exhilarating.

Same! I grabbed my wife's leg at that exact moment you're talking about and she looked at me like.. "What?" and I just nodded at the screen.

I did the same thing in the cold open, because it was very obvious which direction they were heading.

[Ezee E]

What good does a prequel do at this point except to just tell a tale I guess?

I guess, now that I'm calling Thor my favorite out of the group, I should watch 2 and 3... Maybe just 3.

[Dukefrukem]

What good does a prequel do at this point except to just tell a tale I guess?

I guess, now that I'm calling Thor my favorite out of the group, I should watch 2 and 3... Maybe just 3.

Even though Dark Wold is 2nd to last on my list, there's an important relationship arch between Loki and Thor that develops in the 2nd movie and is carried into the third. So not totally a throw away movie, despite the fact the villain and stakes are dumb. Also, you may have lost context with the Thor and his mom convo in Endgame having not seen her death scene.
(and Loki's reaction to it)

A Prequel Black Widow story could be fun though and you could make a ton of them. Maybe we'll finally see the Budapest Mission that she and Clint are constantly referencing. I like the idea of making stand alone espionage-mission-impossible-james-bond-like MCU films considering the Winter Soldier is my favorite MCU film.

[Pop Trash]

I guess, now that I'm calling Thor my favorite out of the group, I should watch 2 and 3... Maybe just 3.

My old review of Ultron was that I was tired of RDJ's shtick, but I still like Thor and Bruce Banner a lot. Marvel must have read my mind since Thor 3 is all Hulk and Thor IN SPACE (and no RDJ) played as a funny comedy. No coincidence it's my fave MCU movie.

[Ezee E]

Yeah... I think I'll stick to just 3.

I have a great idea for a ranking system of my favorite heroes that I'll put together on a plane this evening. Hopefully it works...

[Henry Gale]

Saw this yesterday morning and I was genuinely blown away by it in ways that largely overpower any critical analysis. The whole last hour was basically pure tearjerking moments, even (or especially) the more joyful stuff.

Still difficult to really gather thoughts beyond that, but to this point:


Spider-man: Far From Home is definitely taking place AFTER this film.

I'd actually be more surprised and confused by this because by the end of this one we're still five years from Infinity War's future, meaning that unless every single one of Peter's classmates who we recognize and see join him on the trip were also victims of the snap, it wouldn't make sense for all of them to still be in the same grade as Peter anymore. Meaning Far From Home would function more easily as a breezy school trip story if the world wasn't also having to readjust to making up for a five-year, ageless void in their adolescence.

Then again Tony is not in it.. UNLESS we get another touching victory lap goodbye to him that chronologically precedes his ultimate one.

[Watashi]

Saw this yesterday morning and I was genuinely blown away by it in ways that largely overpower any critical analysis. The whole last hour was basically pure tearjerking moments, even (or especially) the more joyful stuff.

Still difficult to really gather thoughts beyond that, but to this point:



I'd actually be more surprised and confused by this because by the end of this one we're still five years from Infinity War's future, meaning that unless every single one of Peter's classmates who we recognize and see join him on the trip were also victims of the snap, it wouldn't make sense for all of them to still be in the same grade as Peter anymore. Meaning Far From Home would function more easily as a breezy school trip story if the world wasn't also having to readjust to making up for a five-year, ageless void in their adolescence.

Then again Tony is not in it.. UNLESS we get another touching victory lap goodbye to him that chronologically precedes his ultimate one.

Also...the effect of dying (Peter remembers being turned into dust and then coming back) and suddenly reappearing can have some serious psychological and spiritual damages for half the population. I'd be interested to see a Phase 4 film about one half trying to convince that there is no afterlife and the ramifications of the church.:eek:

[megladon8]

Still no one?

[Peng]

Isn’t the long spoiler part in Duke’s first post after he saw it for people who request that?

[Ezee E]

Trust. If nobody is having PTSD about their NYC being destroyed, no one is going to even talk about being a "snap" victim. Homecoming will move along like nothing happened.

[Skitch]

Trust. If nobody is having PTSD about their NYC being destroyed, no one is going to even talk about being a "snap" victim. Homecoming will move along like nothing happened.

Speaking of, that's why I expected Cap to live, or him and tony to die. No way cap goes and tony doesnt. With Tony's reaction to NY, he kill himself with grief if cap sacrificed.

[Ezee E]

Still no one?

Google it.

[Dukefrukem]

Whelp. $350 million weekend take which equates to a 1.2 billion WW debut. Largest ever obvi.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/28/media/avengers-endgame-box-office-record/index.html

[DavidSeven]

I still prefer and miss the looseness that Whedon infused in the series. That said, this is probably close to the best version of this movie that we were going to see. I’m not so cynical that I can’t appreciate a good bit of fan service when it’s well done. This was a deft blend of emotional payoff and leaving some doors open. They did a good job of rewarding those who watched everything while telling a coherent story.

I think they delivered exactly what their fans wanted to see, and I can’t fault them for that. It may not be high art, but certainly well conceived and skillfully done nonetheless.

[dreamdead]

It was fine, and sometimes very good--the score was trying too hard through the first two hours--every moment was scored as though it was life or death, so that the bombast became too much by the time we got to the final act.

I really, really, really like the meanness and sneakiness of the opening scene with Hawkeye; equally like the elevator scene, which is a cute inversion.

There were a few moments that absolutely worked.

The Iron Man and Spider-Man reunion was legitimately touching.
And even though it was manipulative, so was the Stark goodbye to his daughter.
And the final dance is the right way to end it.

The Hawkeye and Black Widow fight for the infinity stone carried itself out a bit too long--so that its pathos became more like parody of endless reversals for me.

The action sequences here weren't ever as strong as those in prior films, but it was probably as solid plot-wise as could be expected. Thor has become the MVP of these films, and I hope that future films can find the touch that Thor 3 had...

[Wryan]

It's overstuffed, but it has some real zingers of unexpectedness. Even though the last 45 minutes are quite fan-servicey, it was still pretty awesome. At the same time, there are moments that basically feel like "people loved this in Infinity War so we'll do it again here but bigger." Also, a looooot of the humor did not work for me (just me, or did that "take a pic/don't take a pic with the kids" thing go on for like 5 minutes?), tho I loved Thor in this. The whole thing is surprisingly shaggy (like a proper heist-gone-to-hell would be), but it's pretty fun overall. As one reviewer put it, ScarJo finally got to act in one of these movies! And she really knocks it outta the park. Didn't really like Hulk in this, sadly. At least it was a very interesting experience not really knowing going in what was going to happen, tho some asswipe did spoil the biggie death for me.

[Wryan]

Shyamalan vibes with the Russo cameo.

Mjolnir antics.

"Hail Hydra"

[Skitch]

I watched this.

What a pile of expected outcomes and completely baffling time travel rules. That stuff completely lost me. I have no idea what was happening. It was like they didn't even give the slightest shit, just we can do whatever the fuck we want. Some things effect future outcomes, some don't, some people are dead from snap, some aren't, some remember, some don't...there was literally zero logic.

Still a fun ride and I was far too confused to judge it at this point. Need a few more watches to see.

[Dukefrukem]

Something I realized today. The decision to make Thor hang with the Guardians of the Galaxy was because the GotG need someone to go toe to toe with Adam Warlock in vol. 3. Otherwise Warlock would wipe the floor with then.

[Milky Joe]

Yeah nobody's topping this for a while.

https://variety.com/2019/film/news/box-office-avengers-endgame-worldwide-1203199601/

[Ivan Drago]

Thoughts underneath the spoiler tag:

This runs a little too long, and the plot moves forward more than once out of convenience (like Ant-Man's return to the real world), and for someone who's been built up as a being that can kill Thanos by herself, Captain Marvel isn't given anything to do, only appearing when she's needed. There are also times where the humor kills the drama of particular scenes, but that's a common quibble I have with most of these movies.

I love that it spends almost the entire first half on the characters five years after The Decimation and how they cope with it, I love how it flows from one genre to another as it goes along, the performances are great, and the climactic battle scenes looked like one splash page after another. These three phases of the MCU started out as Tony's story, and his arc came to a perfect full circle here.

Favorite fanservicey moment: When Captain America finally said, "Avengers Assemble!" That moment was fucking EARNED.

So yeah, I really enjoyed it.

[amberlita]

Duke, I try to be cryptic in your MCU scenes thread with my "looking through the thread" comment about updating after Endgame, but I meant...



My audience reaction was akin to Thor's at that moment ("I knew it!!!"). The whole theater erupted at the sight. So wild and exhilarating.

I love most what goes unspoken about that.

That ever since Avengers 2 Capt America has known he could wield the hammer but chose not to out of respect for Thor

I love him so much.

[Ezee E]

So, Capt America returned all of the stones to where they originally were is the thought right?

[Wryan]

I believe so, but I'm unsure how exactly he gets back some of them to their original place. Like the soul gem? The reality gem?

[Ezee E]

I believe so, but I'm unsure how exactly he gets back some of them to their original place. Like the soul gem? The reality gem?

My followup question.

But also, to get it even more complicated, does this mean the "snap" doesn't even happen since that Thanos escaped his own timeline to go into the future to be killed, so as to not be able to gather the stones at all?

[Peng]

I think the two time travel convo are the key, one where Avengers is working it out and another from the Ancient One, especially the latter which sets the rule as changes in the past mean time branching out into another reality rather than changing their present.

[Peng]

And man, I can't believe the first time I ever cried in one of these things would be from Gwyneth Paltrow. But she's so quietly superb in that scene; Pepper just barely putting on a brave face so Tony would go in peace damn broke me. (And then Cap's ending makes me think of Stephen King's 11/22/63; since I cried at that, so I did at this too lol)

[Dukefrukem]

My followup question.

But also, to get it even more complicated, does this mean the "snap" doesn't even happen since that Thanos escaped his own timeline to go into the future to be killed, so as to not be able to gather the stones at all?

No. Remember this isn't Back to the Future time travel. You can't change the past from the point you are currently at.

[Ezee E]

No. Remember this isn't Back to the Future time travel. You can't change the past from the point you are currently at.

Then why even have to bring back the stones then?

[Dukefrukem]

Then why even have to bring back the stones then?

Bringing the stones back to the present? To undo the snap in the present.

[Lazlo]

Bringing the stones back to the present? To undo the snap in the present.

I think he might be asking why Cap (or anyone) had to take the stones back to where they found them. I guess because of the Ruffalo/Swinton branching timeline conversation?

[Mr. McGibblets]

I feel like they made it seem that Steve was able to put everything back in the last scene, but two of three places that they time-traveled to would have split off and formed alternate timelines. The only one that they didn't mess up was Asgard.

[Dukefrukem]

I think he might be asking why Cap (or anyone) had to take the stones back to where they found them. I guess because of the Ruffalo/Swinton branching timeline conversation?

Oh yeh. That was part of the deal why the Ancient One gave up the stone. There would be consequences for the past timeline even though the present timeline would be saved.

[Skitch]

I remain utterly confused.

[Dukefrukem]

I remain utterly confused.

Think of each timeline as it's own entity and once you change something, that becomes it's own tangent, but would not impact the present.

[Wryan]

What to make of the moment when Tony and his dad are in the elevator and Tony has this weird moment where he questions, with some visual concern, how far along his mom is and talking to his dad about it? Almost felt like they were going to do something with that, and then they didn't. Am I supposed to take some other meaning from that? Like...second kid or adoption or...something? Weird moment.

[Ezee E]

Oh yeh. That was part of the deal why the Ancient One gave up the stone. There would be consequences for the past timeline even though the present timeline would be saved.

But again, the past timeline is completely different since Thanos/Gamora aren't even there. Right? So there isn't a snap.

[Skitch]

Think of each timeline as it's own entity and once you change something, that becomes it's own tangent, but would not impact the present.

Then how in the world are we supposed to believe they undid anything?

[DavidSeven]

Hulk defines the rules early on: you cannot change your present by altering the past. There may be an alternate reality where the "snap" doesn't occur because Thanos isn't there to do it, but with respect to the current timeline, it's all already happened and that can never be changed. The Avengers didn't "undo" anything via time travel; they only traveled time to collect the stones and bring them back to the present time, so they could do their own "snap" to reverse the dusting.

As a condition of giving up a stone, Swinton's character makes Hulk promise to return the stones when the mission is complete, because their continued existence through time is somehow crucial to maintaining the stability of reality as we know it. Thus, an Avenger makes one final trip back in time to return the stones to the exact point in which they were taken.

[Dukefrukem]

Then how in the world are we supposed to believe they undid anything?


But again, the past timeline is completely different since Thanos/Gamora aren't even there. Right? So there isn't a snap.



You guys are totally overthinking this timeline stuff. Back to the Future has ruined you.


David gets it.

[Skitch]

I'm not overthinking it. They WAY overexplained it with rules that are either difficult to understand or don't make logical sense (to be determined).


Hulk defines the rules early on: you cannot change your present by altering the past. There may be an alternate reality where the "snap" doesn't occur because Thanos isn't there to do it, but with respect to the current timeline, it's all already happened and that can never be changed. The Avengers didn't "undo" anything via time travel; they only traveled time to collect the stones and bring them back to the present time, so they could do their own "snap" to reverse the dusting.

So...they created a new timeline? Because in taking the stones from the past they created new timelines, right? Even if they returned them to the same time it was still an alteration.

[Dukefrukem]

I'm not overthinking it. They WAY overexplained it with rules that are either difficult to understand or don't make logical sense (to be determined).



So...they created a new timeline? Because in taking the stones from the past they created new timelines, right? Even if they returned them to the same time it was still an alteration.

Not if they returned them 5 seconds after they took them. Why does this question even need to be answered? It's totally irrelevant to the story.

[Skitch]

Or its 100% critical to the story because the writers went on in detail about how you can't change the past and any attempt to do so just creates a time sideline.

[DavidSeven]

So...they created a new timeline? Because in taking the stones from the past they created new timelines, right? Even if they returned them to the same time it was still an alteration.

It's possible, though I think the existence of alternate timelines and the conditions for creating them is the vaguest part of the film's "science." But I'm guessing they just didn't want to bog the audience down with those types of details. The big message is that you can't change the past of your own timeline, but you can bring objects (infinity stones) and people from the past into the present.

[Skitch]

I think I'm starting to get it. I need to watch it a few more times (and I will of course). After a first watch though...I felt as confused as when I first watched Primer. And I felt it really didn't have to be that way for an Avengers movie. All the non-time travel bits I was fine with, just felt like they went out of their way to make that part of it needlessly overcomplicated.

Thanks David.

[Watashi]

If anything, Endgame has me pumped to see what Marvel Studios does next. I bet the next year, we go small with Black Widow, Eternals, and Shang-Chi before we jump into big sequels like Black Panther 2 and Doctor Strange 2.

Honestly Chloe Zhao's Eternals is the Marvel movie I'm most excited to see.

[Ezee E]

I mean, I definitely get that the reality the team is currently in is fine, I just don't understand why the stones need to be returned except to really make sure they're never used again. I just wouldn't think Captain America would be able to live the way he did by staying in the past.

I'm playing devil's advocate more than anything.

[Dukefrukem]

I mean, what would you prefer them do with the stones? Destroy them so they could never be used again? Keep them together in a new Avengers base? That's really the only two options.

[Dukefrukem]

I guess I stand corrected.


If Cap were to go back into the past and live there, he would create a branched reality, "The question then becomes, how is he back in this reality to give the shield away? Interesting question, right? Maybe there’s a story there. There’s a lot of layers built into this movie and we spent three years thinking through it, so it’s fun to talk about it and hopefully fill in holes for people so they understand what we’re thinking.

[Ezee E]

I mean, what would you prefer them do with the stones? Destroy them so they could never be used again? Keep them together in a new Avengers base? That's really the only two options.

Destroying them would've made the most sense to me. Would've taken someone sacrificing themselves again is all.

[Milky Joe]

but if they don't have the time stone then Dr Strange can't bargain with Dormamu and we're all toast

[Dukefrukem]

Destroying them would've made the most sense to me. Would've taken someone sacrificing themselves again is all.

But then we wouldn't be able to use them in future (current) story lines.

[DavidSeven]

This exchange explains it (it's purposely vague and probably nonsense, but it's the rules that are defined by the film):

Banner: [pleading with The Ancient One for the time stone... ] Please, please, please...

The Ancient One: I'm sorry, I can't help you, Bruce. If I give up the time stone to help your reality, I'm dooming my own.

Banner: With all due respect, I'm not sure that science really supports that.

The Ancient One: The Infinity stones create what you experience as the flow of time. Remove one stone and that flow splits. Now, this may benefit your reality but my new one, not so much. In this new branched reality, without our chief weapon against the forces of darkness, our world will be over run. Millions will suffer. So, tell me Doctor, can your science prevent all that?

Banner: No, but we can erase it. Because once we are done with the stones, we can return each one to it's own time line at the moment it was taken. So, chronologically, in that reality, they never left.

The Ancient One: But you are leaving out the most important part. In order to return the stones, you have to survive.

Banner: We will, I will. I promise.

[Ezee E]

Sounds a whole like Back to the Future to me, but on a different timeline. Meh.

[Thirdmango]

I'm a huge marvel fan and I didn't like this movie overall. It was too bloated and too much fan service, movie winking at me and just too much.

[Dukefrukem]

I'm a huge marvel fan and I didn't like this movie overall. It was too bloated and too much fan service, movie winking at me and just too much.

What fan service didn't you like?

[Ezee E]

The only fan service that came across as forced was the sudden lineup of the women characters all in a row when they made their attack. I don't have a problem with superheroes, but the moment where one-by-one they got in a line was kind of laughable.

[DavidSeven]

The only fan service that came across as forced was the sudden lineup of the women characters all in a row when they made their attack. I don't have a problem with superheroes, but the moment where one-by-one they got in a line was kind of laughable.

That was a big misstep. Not the sentiment behind it -- there was a similar, but effective, shot in Infinity War -- but the way that shot came together in Endgame was completely inorganic and pandering. I'd agree that was the only big fan-service-y moment that they totally botched.

[Milky Joe]

That seemed like less a moment of fan-service than one of simply pandering.

Though admittedly it pissed me off because Daisy Johnson wasn't there more than anything. :(

[Ezee E]

They may as well have had Beyonce's "Girls Run the World" drop in for that moment.

[Dukefrukem]

Seriously? I recognized what Disney was doing there, and it immediately left my mind 10 seconds later. You guys sound so angry.

[Skitch]

And you sound so ultra-defensive of any Marvel criticism it's hard to even discuss MCU with you. Not everything they do is above minor criticisms.

[Ezee E]

Seriously? I recognized what Disney was doing there, and it immediately left my mind 10 seconds later. You guys sound so angry.

This doesn't anger me a bit. It's just eye-roll worthy.

[DavidSeven]

I wouldn’t dock the film a grade for it, nor am I against the sentiment behind it. The practical logic of the lineup and the emphasis on the shot were just a little silly.

[MadMan]

I liked this a lot, but Infinity War was better.

[Dukefrukem]

I wouldn’t dock the film a grade for it, nor am I against the sentiment behind it. The practical logic of the lineup and the emphasis on the shot were just a little silly.

Why is it silly though? The film just killed off the most famous female superhero in the MCU (without a funeral like Tony gets at the end) and the way to honor her was to put in that scene. That's silly?

Even if the movie was attempting to setup A-Force? That's silly?

Forced fine. But silly?

[Lazlo]

I dunno, that moment really did something for me. I thought it was really emotionally stirring and had me sitting there like, hell yeah, this is rad.

[Wryan]

If something is forced and obvious pandering (every single Marvel woman was close enough on the battlefield to converge at that one moment? for real?) then sure it can be called "silly." Calling it inorganic fits perfectly to me as well. There have already been a few thinkpieces written about how the moment is nice and all but fairly unearned, and I don't disagree. And it didn't strike me at all as a moment glorifying their fallen sister or something like that. (Having said that, I think the complaint that we didn't get an explicit funeral for Nat is also a bit unfair--the movie isn't going to interrupt the narrative for two funerals [tho maybe do both at the same time?], and the scene immediately after they all return is the equivalent moment of mourning; if they can continue to show the fallout from losing her, I think that would be okay.)

So.....are we not really gonna get any Hulk Smash anymore? I didn't care for this Hulk. Seemed like they were making fun of The Smash. My friend, who loves Hulk and Marvel and has read basically everything Hulk, said this wasn't Smart Hulk--this was just Green Mark Ruffalo.

[Dukefrukem]

So.....are we not really gonna get any Hulk Smash anymore? I didn't care for this Hulk. Seemed like they were making fun of The Smash. My friend, who loves Hulk and Marvel and has read basically everything Hulk, said this wasn't Smart Hulk--this was just Green Mark Ruffalo.

Yes please be done with Hulk Smash. I want Future Imperfect Hulk. https://www.amazon.com/Hulk-Future-Imperfect-Incredible/dp/078519746X/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Hulk%3A+Fu ture+Imperfect&qid=1556804923&s=gateway&sr=8-1

[Pop Trash]

Call me David Ehrlich, because I'm fairly meh about Infinity War (I liked it even less when I watched it again a few days ago) and kinda loved this?!

The most earned protracted ending since LOTR: The Return of the King. We all knew [REDACTED] was coming, but it doesn't stop the tears.

The first hour in particular hits a groove of good moment after good moment. Oddly, I kept thinking of Wes Anderson -The Royal Tenenbaums in particular- in the parallels of a ragtag family that all peaked early reuniting under peculiar circumstances. Maybe it's just the Kinks deep cut. There's also some Richard Linklater DNA here on the emphasis that time changes everything.

More than ever do I view this as a (doctor) strange consortium of great actors from the indie film world of Sundance and TIFF circa the '90s and '00s. Who would be their Thanos? Harvey Weinstein?

There's fan service in the back end that feels like Ready Player Avengers ... but I'd be lying if I said it doesn't work like gangbusters. Sundries that normally I would be rolling my eyes at gave me genuine pleasure.

[Grouchy]

People, this was great. I wasn't such a huge lover of Infinity War, I didn't find Thanos as compelling a villain as many people did because his motivations are somewhat feeble and strained, so I was glad this movie dispatched him so quickly for most of its runtime and focused on the post-world snap. How they managed to keep that from leaking and built the entire marketing without revealing what the movie is actually about (Back to the Future with superheroes) is an achievement on itself.

[Dukefrukem]

Was waiting for Trans to chime in on this and saw that he might be done with MC. Fuck.

[DavidSeven]

So.....are we not really gonna get any Hulk Smash anymore? I didn't care for this Hulk. Seemed like they were making fun of The Smash. My friend, who loves Hulk and Marvel and has read basically everything Hulk, said this wasn't Smart Hulk--this was just Green Mark Ruffalo.

As a person whose first exposure to Hulk was the "Merged Hulk" (Hulk's body w/ Banner's intellect) of the 90s comics, I enjoyed this spin on the character. That said, I think they deviated enough from that story to make the return of "Smash Hulk" perfectly feasible. Rather than merging Hulk and Banner, it seems they just enhanced Banner, which suggests that the savage version might still reside somewhere inside him.

[Pop Trash]

Was waiting for Trans to chime in on this and saw that he might be done with MC. Fuck.

He's on letterboxd unless he quit that too.

[Dukefrukem]

He's on letterboxd unless he quit that too.

Yup. I told him to get his butt in here.

[Pop Trash]

Yup. I told him to get his butt in here.

As far as I am concerned, that's New Zealand's ass.

[Milky Joe]

In retrospect, compared to this, Infinity War is kinda boring. I still like the opening and the big fight on Titan, but everything else feels pretty perfunctory. The Scarlet Witch/Vision stuff is just Zzzzzzzzz, who cares. The big fight in Wakanda is just a lot of smashing. Knowing how it ends kills the excitement that was there, and now that Endgame is here I can't imagine ever going back to IW.

[Wryan]

Appearances by the Ancient One and Frigga were serious standouts for me as far as one-off scenes. Loved seeing them back.

[Milky Joe]

Appearances by the Ancient One and Frigga were serious standouts for me as far as one-off scenes. Loved seeing them back.

Same! I love how they are both like, "oh you're a time traveller? cool whatever."

[Pop Trash]

In retrospect, compared to this, Infinity War is kinda boring. I still like the opening and the big fight on Titan, but everything else feels pretty perfunctory. The Scarlet Witch/Vision stuff is just Zzzzzzzzz, who cares. The big fight in Wakanda is just a lot of smashing. Knowing how it ends kills the excitement that was there, and now that Endgame is here I can't imagine ever going back to IW.

Rewatching it a few days ago, I feel kinda the same. The first half hour and last half hour are good shit, but it's padded out by Scarlet Witch/Vision drama, Thanos/Gamora/android sister chick (I forget her name) drama, and whatever the fuck was going on in those Peter Dinklage scenes. That movie could have been pared down by 30-45 minutes easily, which is what Marvel should have done. Have a hit it and quit it part one, and a longer portentous Return of the King style part two.

[Pop Trash]

This exchange explains it (it's purposely vague and probably nonsense, but it's the rules that are defined by the film):

Banner: [pleading with The Ancient One for the time stone... ] Please, please, please...

The Ancient One: I'm sorry, I can't help you, Bruce. If I give up the time stone to help your reality, I'm dooming my own.

Banner: With all due respect, I'm not sure that science really supports that.

The Ancient One: The Infinity stones create what you experience as the flow of time. Remove one stone and that flow splits. Now, this may benefit your reality but my new one, not so much. In this new branched reality, without our chief weapon against the forces of darkness, our world will be over run. Millions will suffer. So, tell me Doctor, can your science prevent all that?

Banner: No, but we can erase it. Because once we are done with the stones, we can return each one to it's own time line at the moment it was taken. So, chronologically, in that reality, they never left.

The Ancient One: But you are leaving out the most important part. In order to return the stones, you have to survive.

Banner: We will, I will. I promise.

It's Bill & Ted, but if Bill & Ted were nice enough to go back and return the dad's keys.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiynF8NQzgo

[Dukefrukem]

1.The Avengers
2.Captain America: The Winter Soldier
3.Avengers: Age of Ultron
4. Avengers: Endgame (pending 2nd viewing)
5.Iron Man
6.Thor: Ragnarok
7. Guardians of the Galaxy
8. Avengers: Infinity War
9. Captain America: Civil War
10. Spider-Man: Homecoming
11. Ant-Man and the Wasp
12.Captain America: The First Avenger
13. Iron Man 3
14.Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2
15.Captain Marvel
16.Thor
17.Ant-Man
18.Black Panther
19.Doctor Strange
20.Iron Man 2
21.Thor: The Dark World
22.The Incredible Hulk

Not that folks care all that much, but I've rearranged some of these after watching most of them the past month.

Infinity War gets demoted, Iron Man, Ragnarok and Guardians get promoted. Infinity War does have some downtime. And Civil War handles Zemo and Crossbones so terribly that I want to demote Civil War too.

[Grouchy]

watching most of them the past month.
Dude, I mean obviously, you do whatever you want, but that's a lot of hours for Marvel movies you've already seen.

[Lazlo]

Without thinking about it too much:

1. Avengers: Endgame
2. Iron Man
3. The Avengers
4. Thor: Ragnarok
5. Captain America: The Winter Soldier
6. Avengers: Infinity War
7. Avengers: Age of Ultron
8. Guardians of the Galaxy
9. Thor
10. Captain America: The First Avenger
11. Captain Marvel
12. Iron Man 3
13. Ant-Man
14. Black Panther
15. Ant-Man and the Wasp
16. Thor: The Dark World
17. Captain America: Civil War
18. Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2
19. Spider-Man: Homecoming
20. Doctor Strange
21. Iron Man 2
22. The Incredible Hulk

[Dukefrukem]

Dude, I mean obviously, you do whatever you want, but that's a lot of hours for Marvel movies you've already seen.

They are fun and make me feel good and I (obviously) have been in the mood with Marvel stuff as of late.

[Dukefrukem]

Without thinking about it too much:

1. Avengers: Endgame
2. Iron Man
3. The Avengers
4. Thor: Ragnarok
5. Captain America: The Winter Soldier
6. Avengers: Infinity War
7. Avengers: Age of Ultron
8. Guardians of the Galaxy
9. Thor
10. Captain America: The First Avenger
11. Captain Marvel
12. Iron Man 3
13. Ant-Man
14. Black Panther
15. Ant-Man and the Wasp
16. Thor: The Dark World
17. Captain America: Civil War
18. Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2
19. Spider-Man: Homecoming
20. Doctor Strange
21. Iron Man 2
22. The Incredible Hulk

Good list. My only question would be why you don't like Ant-Man and the Wasp over Ant-Man?

[Ezee E]

*** 1/2
Avengers: Infinity War
Captain America: Winter Soldier
Captain America: First Avenger

***
Avengers: Endgame
Iron Man
The Avengers
Guardians of the Galaxy
Captain America: Civil War
Doctor Strange

** 1/2
Incredible Hulk

**
Thor
Guardians of the Galaxy vol. 2

*1/2
Iron Man 3

*
Iron Man 2

Unseen
Avengers: Age of Ultron
Thor: Dark World
Ant-Man
Ant-Man and the Wasp
Spider-Man: Homecoming
Thor: Ragnarok
Captain Marvel

[Lazlo]

Good list. My only question would be why you don't like Ant-Man and the Wasp over Ant-Man?

I like the mission more, there's more Luis, the novelty of the train fight and all the other size-related stuff still stands out to me. I thought the Ghost storyline in A-MATW suffered on repeat viewing. But, to be clear, all of these are technically good movies on varying ends of the "good" spectrum.

[Skitch]

Dude, I mean obviously, you do whatever you want, but that's a lot of hours for Marvel movies you've already seen.

I've watched Suicide Squad like 3 times and I don't even give it a thumbs up. Comic book dorks got issues! :p

[Grouchy]

I've watched Suicide Squad like 3 times and I don't even give it a thumbs up. Comic book dorks got issues! :p
I saw it only the once but I've seen more than enough videos about how bad it is that I can't really hold the high ground here.

[DavidSeven]

Standout:

1. Avengers
2. Guardians of the Galaxy
3. Avengers: Endgame

Forgettable but entertaining (mostly no discernible order): Avengers: Age of Ultron, Avengers: Infinity War, Thor: Ragnarok, Thor, Iron Man, Iron Man 3, Black Panther, Captain America: The First Avenger, Captain America: Civil War, Ant-Man and the Wasp, Doctor Strange, Spider-Man: Homecoming

Most Overrated: Captain America: Winter Solider

Just bad and you should be ashamed: Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2, Captain Marvel, Ant-Man, Iron Man 2

N/A: Thor: The Dark World, The Incredible Hulk

[Pop Trash]

I'd need a rewatch on a lot of these, but for now...

1. Endgame
2. Cap 1
3. Thor 3
4. Avengers 1
5. Guardians 1
6. Thor 1
7. Black Panther
8. Spider-Man: Homecoming
9. Cap 2
10. Iron Man 1
11. Infinity War
12. Age of Ultron

Das it mang. Based on the last two Avengers the solo joints I haven't seen that I'd most like to now are the two Ant-Mans and Doctor Strange. Maybe Captain Marvel.

[Milky Joe]

1. Avengers
2. Avengers Endgame
3. Iron Man 3
3a. Agents of SHIELD s3
4. Winter Soldier
5. Civil War
5a. Agents of SHIELD s4
6. Ant Man
6a. Agents of SHIELD s5
7. Thor: Ragnarok
8. Iron Man
9. Age of Ultron
9a. Agents of SHIELD s2
10. Spider-Man Homecoming
10a. Agents of SHIELD s1
11. Captain America: First Avenger
12. Doctor Strange
13. Ant Man and the Wasp
14. Black Panther
15. Infinity War
16. Guardians of the Galaxy 2
17. Guardians of the Galaxy
18. Thor
19. Captain Marvel
20. Iron Man 2
21. Thor The Dark World
22. The Incredible Hulk

[Skitch]

I'd need a rewatch on a lot of these, but for now...

1. Endgame
2. Cap 1
3. Thor 3
4. Avengers 1
5. Guardians 1
6. Thor 1
7. Black Panther
8. Spider-Man: Homecoming
9. Cap 2
10. Iron Man 1
11. Infinity War
12. Age of Ultron

Das it mang. Based on the last two Avengers the solo joints I haven't seen that I'd most like to now are the two Ant-Mans and Doctor Strange. Maybe Captain Marvel.

Other than Endgame (I dont know where I stand on it yet, need to see few more times), I am damn close to your order. Captain Marvel surprised me, and I say that because I thought the trailers (and I'm not really sure why) didnt work for me, but the movie did.

[Morris Schæffer]

Pretty darn amazing. I can't believe how good it is.

[Morris Schæffer]

Some assorted thoughts:

- How did old Cap end up on that bench near the team's launch pad? Perhaps with the runtime being this long already there was no time to have some additional scenes where old Cap tracks down some Avengers and tells them why he didn't come back. Perhaps old cap on bench shouldn't have been a scene, instead him dancing with Peggy in the past would have made things clear. Now it feels like over-explaining.
- Scenes with Tony and Pa Stark were amazing. Then they showed Jarvis. I geeked out. Wasn't a huge fan of Agent Carter, but nice to see James D'Arcy for a brief moment.
- So I suppose in IW, Dr. Strange knew the one outcome from all 14 million that would work was that Tony had to sacrifice himself, which is why he preferred not to tell. Until the very end when he coaxed him into accepting his tragic fate. Is the time stone in any way specifically pivotal in Endgame for turning the tides? If not, then still not clear why Strange would give it up in IW. Did that Stone make it possible for them to commence project 'time heist'?
- What an undertaking these past 11 years. I didn't like all the movies, but this is a wonderful pay-off.
- Contrary to some, I'm not especially eager to see the next few years of Marvel since the culmination of this phase feels like such a high water mark.
- Gonna place this ahead of IW



Thoughts underneath the spoiler tag:

This runs a little too long, and the plot moves forward more than once out of convenience (like Ant-Man's return to the real world), and for someone who's been built up as a being that can kill Thanos by herself, Captain Marvel isn't given anything to do, only appearing when she's needed.

Didn't Ant-Man return after the '5 years later' bit? In which case I would say it's less convenient and rather more plausible. As for Captain Marvel, I sort of felt the same way although we all know that if Captain Marvel was indeed that powerful, then Endgame would have been considerably less engaging I believe. It was never her that was going to defeat Thanos, I think she's a boring character although her arrival later in the game was a bit kickass. And in her defense, she does say that Earth's troubles are everywhere in the galaxy so she can't be there all the time. Feeble excuse perhaps.

[Dukefrukem]

Morris good point that I forgot about; A rare situation where the MCU acknowledges the TV shows. That was nice.

[Milky Joe]

I think I read that the 1 out of 14 million scenario Strange saw was the rat turning on the quantum machine bringing Ant Man back which led to the inspiration for Tony to figure out time travel

[Morris Schæffer]

I think I read that the 1 out of 14 million scenario Strange saw was the rat turning on the quantum machine bringing Ant Man back which led to the inspiration for Tony to figure out time travel

That could be. It's just that from the way those final moments played out for Tony, and how Strange whispered 'one chance' to him from across the battlefield, that this specific moment was what Strange had seen all along. I mean, he had seen 14 million outcomes, so I assume the one that might have worked would have been with Tony sacrificing himself. And that Strange had seen this also.

Although that opens up a sort of plothole, because if Strange had seen this exact outcome, he might have said something to Tony back in IW on Titan so that perhaps someone more powerful might have worn the glove and made the snap instead. Hulk survived it, might Captain Marvel has survived it also?

[Pop Trash]

That could be. It's just that from the way those final moments played out for Tony, and how Strange whispered 'one chance' to him from across the battlefield, that this specific moment was what Strange had seen all along. I mean, he had seen 14 million outcomes, so I assume the one that might have worked would have been with Tony sacrificing himself. And that Strange had seen this also.

Although that opens up a sort of plothole, because if Strange had seen this exact outcome, he might have said something to Tony back in IW on Titan so that perhaps someone more powerful might have worn the glove and made the snap instead. Hulk survived it, might Captain Marvel has survived it also?

How is that a plothole? Isn't there a line in IW from Strange, something to effect of "if I tell you it won't happen." I think he points his finger up at Tony and mouths "one" because this is the scenario he had a vision of and instinctively, Tony knows what to do. The scenario has to happen that way because it is fate. If it happened any other way (eg. Captain Marvel or Hulk going for the power glove), it wouldn't be the one, single scenario Strange envisioned and Thanos and his goons would kill them all in battle and win. It's fate. I know it's kinda woowoo that Tony knew what to do when Strange points his finger up, but maybe Strange gave him some psychic messages or some shit.

[Ivan Drago]

This will win Best Picture at the Oscars next year.

Mark my words.

[Morris Schæffer]

How is that a plothole? Isn't there a line in IW from Strange, something to effect of "if I tell you it won't happen." I think he points his finger up at Tony and mouths "one" because this is the scenario he had a vision of and instinctively, Tony knows what to do. The scenario has to happen that way because it is fate. If it happened any other way (eg. Captain Marvel or Hulk going for the power glove), it wouldn't be the one, single scenario Strange envisioned and Thanos and his goons would kill them all in battle and win. It's fate. I know it's kinda woowoo that Tony knew what to do when Strange points his finger up, but maybe Strange gave him some psychic messages or some shit.

Yeah probably not a plothole. But fate as you describe it.

And Ivan, I don't think so, but I would love for it to be so.

[Morris Schæffer]

On another note, Meg and Skitch I cannot believe you wanted to have this spoiled for you. Yeah, you provided some reasons, but they were paper thin. Show some character!! :p

[Dukefrukem]

This will win Best Picture at the Oscars next year.

Mark my words.

What? How?

[Ivan Drago]

What? How?

The Oscars are aiming for popular audiences.

The Oscars are on ABC.

ABC is owned by The Disney Monopoly, who has the money to go for a full awards push among other things on the highest-grossing movie of all time.

Hollywood to Disneywood confirmed.

[Morris Schæffer]

The Oscars are aiming for popular audiences.

The Oscars are on ABC.

ABC is owned by The Disney Monopoly, who has the money to go for a full awards push among other things on the highest-grossing movie of all time.

Hollywood to Disneywood confirmed.

That the oscars go for what's popular means it's sometimes more important to them who watches the broadcast than who actually wins. I see Endgame getting a best picture nomination, which means lots of geeks will be watching the Oscars even if Endgame won't actually win best picture. Nevertheless, mission accomplished.


As for a full awards push by Disney, I wonder if the movie is strong enough to compete in some critical categories such as acting, directing. I mean, I love the movie and I love the characters, but is it an actor/director showcase? Maybe it is, not sure.

I hope that next year you'll get to say 'YES I KNEW IT" to all of us.

[Pop Trash]

The Oscars are aiming for popular audiences.

The Oscars are on ABC.

ABC is owned by The Disney Monopoly, who has the money to go for a full awards push among other things on the highest-grossing movie of all time.

Hollywood to Disneywood confirmed.

It's possible that it'll be a Return of the King BP in the sense that it's a culmination and giving this BP is like giving the MCU a lifetime achievement award... but I'm also very skeptical of that happening, esp. after freakin' Green Book won. The Academy (made up of mostly wealthy, mostly white performative 'woke' limousine liberals) loves their middle to upper middle brow issue pictures and Endgame certainly isn't that.

[Skitch]

On another note, Meg and Skitch I cannot believe you wanted to have this spoiled for you. Yeah, you provided some reasons, but they were paper thin. Show some character!! :p

I wasn't surprised by much of it. Pretty logical conclusion to most character arcs as theyve played out over the last decade.

[Lazlo]

It's possible that it'll be a Return of the King BP in the sense that it's a culmination and giving this BP is like giving the MCU a lifetime achievement award... but I'm also very skeptical of that happening, esp. after freakin' Green Book won. The Academy (made up of mostly wealthy, mostly white performative 'woke' limousine liberals) loves their middle to upper middle brow issue pictures and Endgame certainly isn't that.

Star Wars is also "ending" this year. Two big deal things going for the ROTK-style cumulative Oscar, maybe?

Also, Black Panther wasn't any stronger than Endgame from an acting or directing perspective and it got a BP nod.

[Morris Schæffer]

Also, Black Panther wasn't any stronger than Endgame from an acting or directing perspective and it got a BP nod.

I don't think we're saying it won't have a chance to be nominated, but that its chances to win Best Picture are low rather than high. Which is how this argument started. But this is daft without knowing what other pleasures the year's gonna throw us. It's only May.

[Ezee E]

This won't win Best Pic. It's not completely loved, and the way the voting is set up for Best Picture works for the movie that is actually the most well-liked/least-hated, rather than a divisive approach. The idea that ABC/Disney are pushing for a winner may be true, but it hasn't worked for majority of the decade.

[MadMan]

No way this movie wins Best Picture. I bet it's not even the best superhero movie this year (wait for me to love the new Spider-Man film more).

[MadMan]

Also I am glad I went in spoiler free. Which is hard to do these days thanks to social media.

[Pop Trash]

What's the over / under on what will knock Endgame out of the #1 B/O spot? Aladdin? Godzilla 2 1/2? John Wick 3?... The Secret Life of Pets 2?? My money is on Aladdin in the 4th week. Don't think John Wick 3 can do it in the 3rd week.


Don't underestimate Pikachu lol.

You're right. Pikachu made $58M and Endgame made $63M this weekend. Looks like John Wick 3 might have a good chance at knocking this off #1, but I still think it might be too culty to get big numbers (John Wick 2 made $30M opening wknd in 2017). If not John Wick, than certainly Aladdin (which looks awful imo).

[Dukefrukem]

Yeh- I have a bad feeling about Aladdin. Disney did the right thing about casting this movie (no Whitewashing) but I think it might come back and bite them in terms of box-office gains.

If you had asked me, me top 3 childhood Disney films it would be Lion King, B&tB and Aladdin, and it does not look charismatic to me at all.

[Ezee E]

What Aladdin may not do in the US, they'll more than make up for in the foreign market because of the casting, methinks.

[Skitch]

Aladdin will be my first of these remakes I actually see.

[MadMan]

I think the new Aladdin looks good, but John Wick 3 is my first priority.

[Wryan]

If this replaced the hipster manbun/beard combo I would not be too disappointed.

https://i.redd.it/dj4eolxy61y21.jpg

Although surely most would not be able to pull it off.

[Dukefrukem]

Pretty fun.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22mm_bFq6mo

[TGM]

My MCU ratings updated:

Avengers: Endgame
Guardians of the Galaxy
Captain America: Civil War
The Avengers
Iron Man 3
Avengers: Infinity War
Captain America: The First Avenger
Thor: The Dark World
Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2
Ant-Man & The Wasp
Iron Man
Thor
Captain Marvel
Black Panther
The Incredible Hulk
Avengers: Age of Ultron
Captain America: The Winter Soldier
Thor: Ragnarok
Doctor Strange
Ant-Man
Spider-Man: Homecoming
Iron Man 2

Apologies for the delay. ;)

[TGM]

How is that a plothole? Isn't there a line in IW from Strange, something to effect of "if I tell you it won't happen." I think he points his finger up at Tony and mouths "one" because this is the scenario he had a vision of and instinctively, Tony knows what to do. The scenario has to happen that way because it is fate. If it happened any other way (eg. Captain Marvel or Hulk going for the power glove), it wouldn't be the one, single scenario Strange envisioned and Thanos and his goons would kill them all in battle and win. It's fate. I know it's kinda woowoo that Tony knew what to do when Strange points his finger up, but maybe Strange gave him some psychic messages or some shit.

Tony knows what to do because he sees what finally needs to be done. Until now, they had spent their battles with Thanos over the last two movies trying to pry away the gauntlet itself from Thanos. But they watch as Thanos removes one of the stones from the gauntlet in order to use it to thwart off Captain Marvel, and in that moment, Tony got his "aha" idea, and turned to Strange who gave him the confirmation that this is what needed to be done. It's not the gauntlet they need to take from Thanos in order to beat him, but merely the stones themselves.

[Rico]

So...they created a new timeline? Because in taking the stones from the past they created new timelines, right? Even if they returned them to the same time it was still an alteration.

Yes and no.

Thanos getting killed doesn't permanently change time on all timelines.

The Avengers go back to 4 different times. One of these timelines branches off because Thanos and his army is killed off. But that doesn't mean the other 3 timelines are affected. Think of the 4 timelines they went back to as individual of each other. Timelines A, B, and C don't necessarily lead to timeline D. Timeline D is its own thing because it deviated.

The main timeline doesn't change, just one branch creates an alternative. Hence Cap can go back to the 50's, live out his life, and show up on the bench at the end of the movie.

At least, that is my understanding of the time travel in this movie.

[Skitch]

Yes and no.

Thanos getting killed doesn't permanently change time on all timelines.

The Avengers go back to 4 different times. One of these timelines branches off because Thanos and his army is killed off. But that doesn't mean the other 3 timelines are affected. Think of the 4 timelines they went back to as individual of each other. Timelines A, B, and C don't necessarily lead to timeline D. Timeline D is its own thing because it deviated.

The main timeline doesn't change, just one branch creates an alternative. Hence Cap can go back to the 50's, live out his life, and show up on the bench at the end of the movie.

At least, that is my understanding of the time travel in this movie.

I watched the movie again and understand a bit better. In the end, the entire MCU as been an alternate timeline because of Cap.

[Ezee E]

Timelines explained with a graph (https://orenbell.com/?p=272#endgame-container)

Pretty akin to what my gripes were with the time travel.

[Dukefrukem]

Timelines explained with a graph (https://orenbell.com/?p=272#endgame-container)

Pretty akin to what my gripes were with the time travel.

I'm not sure I agree with the final step as clearly the timeline forgets to include that all the Avengers see Steve on the bench at the end of the movie.



Since cap doesn't return through the machine, we can conclude he never returns to his own reality. The Cap sitting on the bench is not the Cap that we just saw travel back in time. Rather, the Cap on the bench is from this branch's parent reality. Thus, the movie does not portray prime reality, it portrays a branched reality.

[Ezee E]

I'm not sure I agree with the final step as clearly the timeline forgets to include that all the Avengers see Steve on the bench at the end of the movie.

I don't know what prime, parent, and branched reality means... So I just glossed over that.

[Dukefrukem]

Wow. They really want to break that Avatar record.


Not an extended cut, but there will be a version going into theaters with a bit of a marketing push with a few new things at the end of the movie," he revealed. "If you stay and watch the movie, after the credits, there’ll be a deleted scene, a little tribute, and a few surprises. Which will be next weekend.

[TGM]

Wow. They really want to break that Avatar record.

Can’t say I blame ‘em. It’s frustratingly close, but just lost too much steam right at the tail end.

[Peng]

Marvel is not really much a winter release studio, but I sometimes wonder what change of box office leg Endgame might have if it moves from the always crowded summer season to the winter one instead, like Avatar and Titanic.

[Dukefrukem]

I would love to be a fly on the wall during those marketing discussions. How they determine what time of the year franchises should launch.

Star Wars with Christmas is a great example.

[TGM]

1141371960343093248

[Grouchy]

That's a really cheap ploy and I hope it fails.

[TGM]

Eh, Avatar has been rereleased with additional footage at times as well, which no doubt contributed to making the task of topping it at the box office with just an initial release that much harder than it already would’ve been. I have no issue with Marvel utilizing this same tactic as well whatsoever.

[Dukefrukem]

Even Titanic got a 3D re-release years later.

[Lazlo]

Doesn't it need like $45mil to pass Avatar? I'm not opposed to it getting its screen count bumped by any means but if the goal really is to pass Avatar seems like it'd be hard to pull $45mil out of a two-month-old movie in one week. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Dukefrukem]

Doesn't it need like $45mil to pass Avatar? I'm not opposed to it getting its screen count bumped by any means but if the goal really is to pass Avatar seems like it'd be hard to pull $45mil out of a two-month-old movie in one week. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I mean, Black Panther was in theaters for 25 weeks. Endgame has only been in theaters for 7.

Plus this is WW.

[Grouchy]

I hadn't considered all that. All right, enter the Thunderdome. Who cares.

[Skitch]

I mean, Black Panther was in theaters for 25 weeks. Endgame has only been in theaters for 7.


Thats...insane.

[Dukefrukem]

Fun to watch these


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gde-EKrePhE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtKVHYqLSdc

[Dukefrukem]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EAEyaktWwAAJBHP.jpg:orig

[Peng]

These have been so corny but I still look forward to what he comes up with each time lol

[Ezee E]

These have been so corny but I still look forward to what he comes up with each time lol

Don't need to worry about anymore of these for quite some time!

[Peng]

It's kinda cringey (and redundant with the funeral scene right after) so I'm glad they cut it, but I do like the touch of Gamora going "eh I don't know him or these people (yet), bye" lol.

1154787642736893953

[Dukefrukem]

Yup. Glad they cut it as well.

[Irish]

Voted "nay," or really "needed the X-Men."

I think it works when it's meticulously touching every possible base (sometimes more than once) in a strenuous effort to please fans. I don't think it works anywhere else, or as a movie. (Mostly because it isn't a cohesive story, more like a series of vignettes that would play better as television series.)

There's too many logical inconsistencies to talk about, but I did like that the movie tried to head them off with the talk about "you can't change the present by changing the past." That was a pretty good gambit (but of course it's a gambit that couldn't work on the internet). Ultimately I don't think any of that shit matters because the movie wasn't about time travel.

Two things I will pick on because I thought they were quick and lazy writing:

(1) If Nebula knew how Thanos acquired the soul stone, then why didn't she tell Hawkeye or Black Widow that there was a price attached in getting it? Why are they left surprised at the last minute?

(2) Why did Strange give up his stone so easily? This was never explained in "Infinity War" and this movie brings it up twice. Tony mentions it in a tirade when he returns to earth and Hulk and The Ancient One have a conversation about it. If the Russos had a hole they couldn't close, why draw the audience's attention to it multiple times and still not resolve it?

I knew a couple of things ahead of time.

That Tony dies sacrificing himself; something I was happy to have been wrong about in my predictions. Pretty good moment and I might have gotten more out of it if I hadn't been spoiled (thanks, reddit shitheads)..

And I also knew folks were not happy about "Fat Thor." I thought it was fun at first and I liked they were continuing a trend from "Infinity War" where Thor expresses his vulnerability openly. But the joke went on way too long and instead of the movie having empathy for the character, it was making fun of him. I fucking hated that, because it seemed like it was encouraging me, in the audience, to point and laugh at him, too. It didn't help that most of the other Avengers either made jokes at Thor's expense or flat out ignored that he's fucked in the head. These are the same people describing themselves as "family" a coupla hours later, at the end of the movie.

Hawkeye now joins Hulk in the Marvel Pantheon of Mass Murderers. How is Cap okay with Clint going rogue and killing in cold blood? The movie doesn't really address this, except in a short and awful conversation between Natasha and Clint, where she tells him "I don't judge people by their worst mistakes." Say what? Someone's worst mistake might be getting drunk and cheating on their wife with their secretary. Or bouncing their mortgage cheque. Or leaving their kid in a hot car. Or I dunno. Any number of mundane parts of the human condition. But killing scores of people over a ~5 year period is, ya know, pretty fucking far beyond.

The movie steps around Captain Marvel and only invokes the character during scenes involving Thanos, where she's instrumental. In a comic book way, this didn't make sense to me. It was like someone making a "Justice League" movie and coming up with a reason to send Superman off-world for the bulk of the runtime because he's too powerful and will only fuck up oh-so-delicate plotting.

My biggest complaint is that the middle portion of the movie just wasn't interesting. Those "time heists" coulda been great fun. They're not, because most are callbacks to what we've seen before, except from a slightly different angle. I mean that literally, as in camera angles, not narrative angles. None of the scenes lend a new perspective on past events or present characters. Most of it was visually flat and contained no action. The attempted humor fell flat because the first hour of the movie was relentlessly dour. All it accomplished was to push the plot forward, and weakly.

The climatic battle almost makes the slog worth it. It was fun seeing everybody on screen again, throwing down. But why was that shit so completely fucking ugly? Like, the actors are on a soundstage covered in green screen. The producers could have created anything below, behind, and above them. Why does the final fight scene look like it is taking place in an intergalactic junk yard, around piles of volcanic ash?

PS: And yeah, the "girl power" shot was the worst kinda pandering. Especially since, in two movies now, the only significant female character on two different teams has died.

Extra "what the fuck, Irish" interpretation, which will undoubtedly annoy the hell outta some of you:

Psycho superfans online --- the kind that send death threats to critics --- always harp about how they don't like politics in their popular entertainment and holy shit, this movie is stuffed with politics. Unfortunately, most of em are regressive and ugly.

"Endgame" is a #MAGA movie through and through, 100% red meat for red staters, and it contains a helluva lot of uncomfortable touchstones of fascist imagery and artforms, mostly around its plotting and themes. (Here I am thinking about superhero stories in an academic sense but also (paraphrasing) Pauline Kael's description of action movies in the early 70s as the "first fascist movie genre.")

What this movie says and how it says it is all sorts of gross, but I think it's darkly funny that "woke," progressive critics who complain about Trump on twitter naturally embraced and cheered it on release. Like whaaaaaa the fuuuuuuuuuck.

[Dukefrukem]

I was about to write "good review" until I read your last spoiler. How exactly is this movie a #MAGA movie? I'm lost on that.

[Wryan]

Voted "nay," or really "needed the X-Men."
(1) If Nebula knew how Thanos acquired the soul stone, then why didn't she tell Hawkeye or Black Widow that there was a price attached in getting it? Why are they left surprised at the last minute?

I don't think she did know. In IW, she simply deduced that Gamora died somehow while they were getting the stone because she didn't come back. She wasn't there for the specific interaction so she prob doesn't know.



(2) Why did Strange give up his stone so easily? This was never explained in "Infinity War" and this movie brings it up twice. Tony mentions it in a tirade when he returns to earth and Hulk and The Ancient One have a conversation about it. If the Russos had a hole they couldn't close, why draw the audience's attention to it multiple times and still not resolve it?

My interpretation is that he put his faith in Tony to be the right person for the right moment, that he banked on Tony to do what he foresaw was necessary in an ocean of almost impossible odds. He probably still didn't like him, but he did believe in him. Perhaps he had a backup plan in case things did not go right, but the battle was a little too chaotic to depend on that. He just had to be there to help nudge Tony into seeing the choice.



And I also knew folks were not happy about "Fat Thor." I thought it was fun at first and I liked they were continuing a trend from "Infinity War" where Thor expresses his vulnerability openly. But the joke went on way too long and instead of the movie having empathy for the character, it was making fun of him. I fucking hated that, because it seemed like it was encouraging me, in the audience, to point and laugh at him, too. It didn't help that most of the other Avengers either made jokes at Thor's expense or flat out ignored that he's fucked in the head. These are the same people describing themselves as "family" a coupla hours later, at the end of the movie.

If the writing is failing Thor a bit, Hemsworth definitely isn't. He's continuing to do serious justice to the character's issues and mental/emotional troubles imo. I think his performances as Thor go undervalued and underestimated. I also loved that this movie resuscitated Russo's Frigga from the Marvel "damn she's awesome oh she's gone okaaaaay" void.



My biggest complaint is that the middle portion of the movie just wasn't interesting. Those "time heists" coulda been great fun. They're not, because most are callbacks to what we've seen before, except from a slightly different angle. I mean that literally, as in camera angles, not narrative angles. None of the scenes lend a new perspective on past events or present characters. Most of it was visually flat and contained no action. The attempted humor fell flat because the first hour of the movie was relentlessly dour. All it accomplished was to push the plot forward, and weakly.

I think the purpose of the time jumps, other than the stone-gathering narrative, was less about introducing new perspectives and more about tying off other ones (e.g., Tony and his father, Thor and Mom, Natasha and Clint). Also, I thought the Hulk/Ancient One, Tony/Dad, Thor/Mom and Captain America/Hydra/Captain America scenes were pretty strong. If anything, it was a rug-puller to throw the characters back in time and make the audience think they are gonna have some big action scenes but most of them turn out to be quiet character moments. I liked that.



The climatic battle almost makes the slog worth it. It was fun seeing everybody on screen again, throwing down. But why was that shit so completely fucking ugly? Like, the actors are on a soundstage covered in green screen. The producers could have created anything below, behind, and above them. Why does the final fight scene look like it is taking place in an intergalactic junk yard, around piles of volcanic ash?

Cause they are fighting Thanos and Thanos brings devastation to wherever he goes? I dunno, I didn't have this issue.

[Dukefrukem]

I don't think she did know. In IW, she simply deduced that Gamora died somehow while they were getting the stone because she didn't come back. She wasn't there for the specific interaction so she prob doesn't know.
.

Debatable. There's a line in IW where Quill turns around in shock and Nebula says "Gamora....He took her to Vormir, he came back with the soul stone and she didn't"

Then Quill responds "tell me you didn't do it" which could imply that they think he just killed her.

[Dukefrukem]

My interpretation is that he put his faith in Tony to be the right person for the right moment, that he banked on Tony to do what he foresaw was necessary in an ocean of almost impossible odds. He probably still didn't like him, but he did believe in him. Perhaps he had a backup plan in case things did not go right, but the battle was a little too chaotic to depend on that. He just had to be there to help nudge Tony into seeing the choice.



What? No. This one is easy. In the 14 million different scenarios Strange saw with only one scenario where they came out winning. That one event needed Tony alive. Thanos was going to kill Tony in IW and Strange also knew the only way he could keep Tony alive, would be to give up the soul stone. Tony would never have perfected the time machine or made the Iron Man Gauntlet, which means the events in Endgame would never have occurred.

They bring it up twice in Endgame to remind people why that decision was made in IW. It definitely relied on things falling into place, but Strange saw and knew what needed to happen. The Ancient One also knew this.

[Skitch]

(2) Why did Strange give up his stone so easily?

My interpretation of that is because it was the only way to lead to their eventual win. The only scenario he previewed with the outcome they desired.

[Skitch]

What? No. This one is easy. In the 14 million different scenarios Strange saw with only one scenario where they came out winning. That one event needed Tony alive. Thanos was going to kill Tony in IW and Strange also knew the only way he could keep Tony alive, would be to give up the soul TIME stone. Tony would never have perfected the time machine or made the Iron Man Gauntlet, which means the events in Endgame would never have occurred.

They bring it up twice in Endgame to remind people why that decision was made in IW. It definitely relied on things falling into place, but Strange saw and knew what needed to happen. The Ancient One also knew this.

...:p

[Wryan]

You think in 14 million different versions he only gave up the stone in one? That seems unlikely to me. To me it's about way more than just needing to keep Tony alive. That seems rather banal a reason.

[Wryan]

Debatable. There's a line in IW where Quill turns around in shock and Nebula says "Gamora....He took her to Vormir, he came back with the soul stone and she didn't"

That's what I'm talking about. In no way, none whatsoever, is it suggested that she definitely knows about the soul-for-soul deal, and that's what I was responding to Irish about. I'm just saying she deduced that Gamora obviously didn't come back from whatever happened.

[Dukefrukem]

You think in 14 million different versions he only gave up the stone in one? That seems unlikely to me. To me it's about way more than just needing to keep Tony alive. That seems rather banal a reason.

No. There was probably seven million different versions played out where Strange gave up the Time stone. But the only version that worked is where he did.


That's what I'm talking about. In no way, none whatsoever, is it suggested that she definitely knows about the soul-for-soul deal, and that's what I was responding to Irish about. I'm just saying she deduced that Gamora obviously didn't come back from whatever happened.

Oh right. Gotcha.

[Dukefrukem]

1156186784319098880

[Irish]

I was about to write "good review" until I read your last spoiler. How exactly is this movie a #MAGA movie? I'm lost on that.

#MAGA is predicated on returning the country to a mythical point when society was somehow better. If only we could make things exactly right, like they were before, then America -- and by extension, the world -- would be better off. It's obsession with idealized history.

"Endgame" carries a similar obsession. It's packed with characters who can't let go. The movie's focus extends beyond ~3 billion deaths (which we never really see or hear about) and into the stories of heroes like Clint, Scott, and Cap. If only the Avengers could make things right, like they were before, then they will redeem the world.

When Tony returns from space, the first thing out of his mouth is basically, "I told you so." This is in character, but the way he expresses it troubled me: He reminds everyone they would have been better off trading freedom for security, and RDJ's line reading derides the idea that freedom is a value worth having, even in the face of tragedy.

The last time Tony played with technology on a God-like level, he created Ultron. When that happened, Bruce and Steve had a lot to say about it. This time, though, everyone tows the line. There isn't dissent. There are no alternate viewpoints. Cap, formerly portrayed as an ideological purist, has nothing to say about anything. (Hell, you could give every single one of his lines to War Machine or Falcon and it wouldn't make a difference.)

When our heroes appear at Tony's remote woodland cabin, he's only on board with their ideas if it means he's able to conserve what he already has -- his family. He's fine with a massive change to the world as long as it doesn't effect him personally. (The movie skips the opportunity to present him with a Sophie's choice between the life of his daughter and the lives of 3 billion people, but I can't blame it too much. That would have turned Iron Man into even more of a tinhorn Jesus.)

Captain America (ffs!) ends his story by literally spending the rest of his life in the past, with his idealized girl in an idealized life.

The neat trick of the movie is that it's not about returning to the past to effect the present (a la "Days of Future Past," or, really, any other time travel movie). It's about bringing pieces of the past into the present to make necessary change. And the characters achieve what they do not by traveling to random points in the timeline, but by going back into the moments of their own lives.

This is on top of the usual fascist tropes that show up in superhero and action stories, but they irked me twice over here because "Endgame" doubles down on all of them: the reliance on romantic symbolism (Mjolinir and Cap's shield are treated with the sanctity of religious objects); the repeated maudlin character beats around nuclear and ad-hoc families and the way it fetishizes family life (Clint and Scott's individual stories, Tony's scenes with his father, Natasha's lines about how the Avengers are all she had); a view of violence that's so positive that killing is redemptive (Clint's entire storyline, but also Thor's dialogue about how Thanos needs to be killed "properly" the second time around.); the usual focus on idealized masculinity (while women are present on screen, most of them are also safely in the background, and key relationships, like Cap's and Clint's, are practically ripped out of a Norman Rockwell painting); and finally the idea of rebirth (everyone who was snapped is resurrected and the global state is made whole).

But "Endgame's" most troubling idea might be the revelation that the Avengers have no faith in humanity, in our adaptability and our resilience --- values often championed in other fantasy and sci-fi --- but somehow it's only up to them to save us.

[TGM]

I’ve also seen a number of people make the exact opposite argument, that Thanos is an intended Trump stand-in, the snap is supposed to represent the 2016 election, and the movie is about what’s happened to the world in that time, and how we’ve got to return to a time before he fucked everything up. Meanwhile, I think both of these arguments are a pretty big stretch, and honestly think they just told the story they wanted to tell, without any particular political motives driving their writing decisions, and anything anyone might see one way or the other is merely coincidental. Most of the motives in the movie feel character driven, not politically driven, which is part of the reason this entry in particular is such a breath of fresh air compared to a lot of these flicks. Really, the all female lineup at the end is the only thing that stood out as an actual intended political statement of any sort in the movie, but that’s what I got out of it in any case.

[Dukefrukem]

I really like Irish's theory better than the Thanos Trump theory.

Slight nitpick; we do hear about the 3 billion deaths. We sit through a support group. q

[Irish]

I’ve also seen a number of people make the exact opposite argument, that Thanos is an intended Trump stand-in, the snap is supposed to represent the 2016 election, and the movie is about what’s happened to the world in that time, and how we’ve got to return to a time before he fucked everything up.

Okay, but how is that supported by the text?


Most of the motives in the movie feel character driven, not politically driven, which is part of the reason this entry in particular is such a breath of fresh air compared to a lot of these flicks.

The movie isn't as obviously political as something such as "Star Wars," but it definitely expresses a viewpoint by what the characters say and do (especially Tony and Clint). It's pretty hard to argue those viewpoints aren't right wing.

A lot of the other stuff I said about #MAGA and fascism is more akin to cultural studies bullshit, so I'll give ya that. (I still think it's in the movie, though, intentionally or not.)


Slight nitpick; we do hear about the 3 billion deaths. We sit through a support group. q

Yeah, but notice how nobody mentions the workaday dead directly. When the one guy talks about going out on a date, he speaks about his and his date's emotional reactions to the tragedy at large (eg: the both cried at different points in the dinner). He doesn't relate a single detail about anyone who died, not even their name or their relationship to him.

Granted, those particular details aren't the purpose of the scene. If the movie provided those details and let an actor act it, then the audience's attention would shift and they might feel something the directors don't want them to feel --- because the purpose of the scene is for Cap to talk about Peggy and half-heartedly repeat the phrase "Ya gotta move on" and underline the idea that Cap can't do that.

To borrow from something I read recently --- the Avengers take a "God's eye view " of the situation and that never changes, because the movie barely relates detail about how the world is different since the snap. (At one point, Cap says something about how whales swim the Hudson now because there's less pollution. But that's pretty much it.)

[TGM]

Okay, but how is that supported by the text?

I don’t personally think it is, which is my argument entirely. I only bring it up to point out how I’ve noticed different people claiming the movie is making different political statements, whereas I personally don’t think that it is.

You might see one thing, another person watching the same movie might see the complete opposite. But either way, I personally don’t think either was the authorial intent. Where other people are seeing politics, I’m seeing a big bombastic comic book action movie where some especially fucked up shit happened, and our heroes have to do whatever it takes to undo that fucked up shit and save the day, all the while taking us on a journey through this 20+ movie series’ history as a means of tying up loose ends and highlighting a number of the key moments that lead us to this point. I see it more as a celebration of everything leading to this point, a going away tour of sorts before sending us off from this extended arc in the MCU. And I honestly don’t think it’s intended to be read as being much deeper than that.

It’s not a movie that’s attempting to make a statement, it’s attempting to wrap up 20+ movies’ worth of stories and characters, and send us off in as satisfying a manner as possible. And I think that task alone was almost certainly quite enough of a juggling act for the writers and filmmakers to try and tackle without also intentionally forcing in any real world politics in the mix as well. ;)

[Grouchy]

You might see one thing, another person watching the same movie might see the complete opposite. But either way, I personally don’t think either was the authorial intent. Where other people are seeing politics, I’m seeing a big bombastic comic book action movie where some especially fucked up shit happened, and our heroes have to do whatever it takes to undo that fucked up shit and save the day, all the while taking us on a journey through this 20+ movie series’ history as a means of tying up loose ends and highlighting a number of the key moments that lead us to this point. I see it more as a celebration of everything leading to this point, a going away tour of sorts before sending us off from this extended arc in the MCU. And I honestly don’t think it’s intended to be read as being much deeper than that.
It is all of that, but texts are never innocent and, frankly, I enjoyed the hell out of this movie, but Irish's interpretation makes a lot of sense. Either intentionally or not, Endgame contrasts a portrayal of a somber, conflictive era that comes as a result of the failure to defeat Thanos with a simpler, idealized past based around the concepts of good and evil - and the heroes intend to go back to that. This is supported by the text in a way that the Thanos/Trump theory, at least as far as you outlined it, fails to accomplish.

EDIT: I don't high five Irish in the same way based on his plot hole remarks. I'm fine with the writing, Nebula didn't know the cost of the soul stone and Dr. Strange's calculations make sense as much as we can make sense of a calculation that's impossible to make.

[Dukefrukem]

Agreed. Plot holes aside, the interpretation feels spot on.

I watched this again last night. I may have to adjust my rankings a bit. The first half is just so somber; It's not really until Professor Hulk is introduced where things become a little more lively.

[Dukefrukem]

I don't think I would ever go to a movie again if my theater acted this way. Is this how it is in California for everything? I'm not saying dont have some kind of genuine reaction, but you might as well put this on an episode of Mystery Science Theater.

This is obnoxious as fuck. Am I grumpy old man?? There's literally a reaction for everything on the screen.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBNfhjnEBPM

[Skitch]

I almost made it 3 minutes. I would be furious. Shut the FUCK up.

[Ezee E]

I'm guessing that's how it is for many opening weekends in places where there's people dressing up for sold out shows.

I went to a sold out 3 PM-ish show. Nobody was dressed up, and while there were was some applause and reactions, it was never close to like that.

I did have that for the Quiet Place when I went to a terrible suburban theater on a Saturday opening weekend and I think it made me not like the movie.

[Philip J. Fry]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mqsb-9iHCi0

[Dead & Messed Up]

Didn't care for this one, although some of the Tony beats were nice, and the final face-off generates a sort of inevitable charge thanks to the time spent with these characters. I don't think the Russos and their writing team are good at creating functional stories-- stories that confidently take you from one moment to the next-- but not at particularly coherent or engaging ones.

[Dukefrukem]

Didn't care for this one, although some of the Tony beats were nice, and the final face-off generates a sort of inevitable charge thanks to the time spent with these characters. I don't think the Russos and their writing team are good at creating functional stories-- stories that confidently take you from one moment to the next-- but not at particularly coherent or engaging ones.

Can you elaborate more on this?

[Dukefrukem]

Anyone want to do this tonight?

https://www.instagram.com/p/B_d2gxllv5S/?utm_source=ig_embed

[Ezee E]

Anyone want to do this tonight?

https://www.instagram.com/p/B_d2gxllv5S/?utm_source=ig_embed

Maybe if it was Infinity War.

[megladon8]

So this was good, not great.

I'm pretty exhausted with superheroes, so the fact that it not only held my attention but also kept me thoroughly engaged and excited despite knowing all the twists is impressive.

For as many genuinely touching and heartfelt moments as it has (Tony running into someone in the 70s, Rogers doing the same), it also has some attempts that are painfully, embarrassingly bad (Hawkeye and Black Widow fighting over who gets to sacrifice themselves...that was awful).

Also, man, there is some AWFUL CGI in this. Thanos looked much better in Infinity War. And Hulk looked really rough at times. Why was the CGI better in the 2012 film? Was it just that there was too damned much and they were spread too thin on this one?

Major props for featuring Nebula more prominently. She is effing awesome.

My parents love all the Marvel movies, but would hate this one. And I would completely understand their disliking it, and even agree with them on some points.

But overall I liked it.

[DFA1979]

What if I liked this movie but I think it needed the X-Men cause that would be neat? I think both works here.