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Dukefrukem
01-12-2019, 01:24 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NspqGM0DbbQ

Ezee E
01-12-2019, 04:31 PM
When's a real preview going to come? Can't wait. Maybe the most excited I've been for a TV Season.

Spinal
01-13-2019, 10:45 PM
I'm looking forward to it. It's almost certainly going to be an emotional ride to see this come to an end. However, my expectations are somewhat in check this time around. That last season was pretty rough.

Dukefrukem
01-13-2019, 11:41 PM
We need to recap our scores from the game too.

Irish
01-13-2019, 11:52 PM
#boatsex

Irish
01-14-2019, 03:51 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wA38GCX4Tb0

Pure promo, no plot details.

I love it. This is the kinda fantasy cheese I can get behind.

Ezee E
01-14-2019, 05:44 AM
I'm looking forward to it. It's almost certainly going to be an emotional ride to see this come to an end. However, my expectations are somewhat in check this time around. That last season was pretty rough.

Oh yeah, the fantasy thrones game!

Dukefrukem
03-05-2019, 04:33 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlR4PJn8b8I

Wryan
03-05-2019, 04:56 PM
Looking sweet as hell and so cinematic. Can't wait! Hope Cersei dies!

Irish
03-05-2019, 04:58 PM
This'll be so cheesy and I can't wait.

Who's making book on an ambiguous ending / outro?

Morris Schæffer
03-05-2019, 05:04 PM
Supposedly, this season will have the epic battle to end all battles. Cast members speak of a hugely unpleasant ordeal to film.

Wryan
03-05-2019, 05:54 PM
While I'm sad that this season is shorter on episodes overall, I'm sort of giddy that we're basically going to be getting a new Game of Thrones movie every weekend for like 6 weeks.

Ezee E
03-05-2019, 07:13 PM
Supposedly, this season will have the epic battle to end all battles. Cast members speak of a hugely unpleasant ordeal to film.

Took 11 weeks to film, which is insane. Obviously in harsh conditions.

DavidSeven
03-05-2019, 07:42 PM
I hope this doesn't end on a Marvel style team-up battle against CGI baddies, but I guess that's inevitable. I'm guessing that's why George RR Martin has had so much difficulty finishing the series. The existence of the white walkers was always more interesting as pure allegory in a larger tale about moral ambiguity and power politics. Finishing the series with a clean good-vs-evil standoff feels like the antithesis of the complexity he captured earlier in the story, but it's also the most logical conclusion based on what's been foreshadowed. Hopefully, there are at least a few interesting turns along the way.

Skitch
03-05-2019, 11:22 PM
I want this to end with most everyone dead and Tyrion to stumble to the throne and plop up there with a fat bev, pregnant pause..."fuck it, I'm king". Cut to black, roll credits.

Irish
03-06-2019, 12:42 AM
I'm thinking more a "Freddy vs Jason" style ending, one where every fan walks away satisfied no matter who they were rooting for.

I don't think they will risk alienating part of the audience by having a high body count and a clean winner. They'll want viewers to feel good about Martin's universe so they can sell the upcoming prequel / spin-off.

Like, I'll be very surprised if all the Lannisters die and Dragon Lady sits on the throne with Jonny Boy as Queen Consort.

Ezee E
03-06-2019, 04:22 AM
My thought is that the remaining Starks survive, but no dragons and a lot of favorites gone. Humans prevail, but remain the worst enemy as Cersei still sits on the throne.

Spinal
03-07-2019, 06:09 PM
After last season, I'm honestly looking forward to His Dark Materials more than this.

[ETM]
03-09-2019, 06:39 PM
I'm looking forward to it being over and not in the news more than anything, to be honest.

Sent from my Mi A1 using Tapatalk

Ezee E
03-10-2019, 03:29 AM
HBO going all out to see what will replace this afterwards with His Dark Materials and Watchmen.

Morris Schæffer
03-16-2019, 08:41 AM
https://variety.com/2019/tv/news/game-of-thrones-final-season-dates-episode-length-1203164327/

Episode lengths

Dukefrukem
04-08-2019, 07:59 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcg_e-FY_Vs

Grouchy
04-14-2019, 06:31 PM
We're going to do thematic dishes with my friends to watch this. Today we are having Samwell Tarly's Pig Breastplate. We're obviously going to have to do a Hot Pie day and Robert Baratheon's Roast Lamb.

Dukefrukem
04-15-2019, 02:09 AM
What is Sansa planning? :eek:

Wryan
04-15-2019, 02:56 AM
Good first ep. John Bradley did exceptional work in a short amount of time.

Ezee E
04-15-2019, 04:00 AM
Basically one big "previously on" episode to set the groundwork, which is to be expected.

Jon Snow is basically being set up to be "Ned'd" isn't he?

Irish
04-15-2019, 04:35 AM
LOL this was awesome, even though it referenced shit I couldn't remember. (Who's the flaming sword guy?)

I laughed when Daenerys says to Jon, "Your sister doesn't like me."

Also the exchange, "Stand back! He has blue eyes!" "I've always had blue eyes!"

bac0n
04-15-2019, 04:43 AM
I personally think the scene that's gonna stick with me is Sam learning the fate of his father and brother. Just about lost my shit watching his heart crack like that.

Grouchy
04-15-2019, 04:44 AM
(Who's the flaming sword guy?)
Beric Dondarrion. Basically a knight who turned to the fire religion when a Red Priest brought him back to life... more than once. The priest was killed by the living dead so this is his last life.

This was a good first episode. Both big scenes with Sam Tarlly were surprisingly affecting, and I was intrigued by the grisly message the Night King left. Is that supposed to be the Targaryen sigil?

Grouchy
04-15-2019, 04:45 AM
Also, Bran with "I'm waiting for an old friend". It took me a while to realize he meant Jamie.

Ezee E
04-15-2019, 04:51 AM
Dany's lining up plenty of potential enemies if she makes it out of the Night King Battle.

Irish
04-15-2019, 05:00 AM
Also gotta give props to Amazon. Two clicks on my TV remote for an HBO subscription and then I was watching the premiere before it aired locally. That was cool.

Wryan
04-15-2019, 02:38 PM
The memes about Bran being left in the courtyard and just appearing behind people to stare at them are already funny as hell.

Grouchy
04-15-2019, 03:00 PM
Hahah the moment we watched the episode we knew that was the most meme-able content.

Spinal
04-15-2019, 04:27 PM
Beric Dondarrion. Basically a knight who turned to the fire religion when a Red Priest brought him back to life... more than once. The priest was killed by the living dead so this is his last life.



He's also the person Ned Stark sent to bring Gregor Clegane to justice in Season 1 after the Lannisters started raping and pillaging in response to Tyrion's kidnapping.

Spinal
04-15-2019, 04:30 PM
This was a good first episode. Both big scenes with Sam Tarlly were surprisingly affecting, and I was intrigued by the grisly message the Night King left. Is that supposed to be the Targaryen sigil?

They've been leaving that symbol since episode one and didn't we see it in one of Bran's flashbacks too? Which would mean it would pre-date the creation of the Targaryen sigil.

Spinal
04-15-2019, 04:34 PM
When the content warning for 'Strong Sexual Content' came up, I said, "Who is still having hot sex at this point in the story?" Nice work, Bronn. Tough job, but someone's got to do it. Qyburn's deadpan prognosis of the whore's pox got the biggest laugh of the episode from me.

Grouchy
04-15-2019, 06:10 PM
Qyburn's deadpan prognosis of the whore's pox got the biggest laugh of the episode from me.
Same here. And yeah, they've since sent me this screenshot from... the first scene of the first episode!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D4KRPSQWsAIqA-d.jpg

Yxklyx
04-15-2019, 08:21 PM
I managed to watch for the first time seasons 4-7 starting last Monday until yesterday. This was a pretty good start (though for the final season I expected a bit more). Characters need to start dying - there's no reason to keep them for a next season. Jaime should have been killed by The Mountain at the end of last season as well. Seems like he might be killed by Dany soon though. Apparently, the Ice Dragon is not a zombie but a Walker!

Peng
04-16-2019, 03:52 AM
That dragon watching them kiss and Jon being so uncomfortable is hilarious. The Sam/Dany scene is great and has some of the old seasons' feeling of complexity back in a bit.

Ezee E
04-16-2019, 04:18 AM
All this humor for the first episode makes me think it's setting up for quite the depressing rest of season.

DavidSeven
04-16-2019, 04:23 AM
I hope something interesting is going to happen, because this season is not going to win on just its wooden dialogue, forced quips, and going through the standard plot mechanations until an inevitable CGI throwdown. Dany and Jon’s ‘How to Train Your Dragon’ scene was rubbish.

That said, the Sam/Dany scene teased something compelling. I couldn’t help but think that, in Martin’s hands, this would lead to something definitively tragic, yet thematically poignant, for the audience. I wonder if the producers have the balls to do something more interesting than a season long battle for alliances between Dany and Jon.

Ezee E
04-16-2019, 09:50 PM
I hope something interesting is going to happen, because this season is not going to win on just its wooden dialogue, forced quips, and going through the standard plot mechanations until an inevitable CGI throwdown. Dany and Jon’s ‘How to Train Your Dragon’ scene was rubbish.

That said, the Sam/Dany scene teased something compelling. I couldn’t help but think that, in Martin’s hands, this would lead to something definitively tragic, yet thematically poignant, for the audience. I wonder if the producers have the balls to do something more interesting than a season long battle for alliances between Dany and Jon.

After the Night King Battle, I figure some conflictive things will have to happen with whatever's left and King's Landing.

Bronn could be at an interesting conflict too.

I think it'll be fine.

DavidSeven
04-18-2019, 07:01 AM
George Lucas helped direct scene from Season 8 premiere. (https://www.theverge.com/2019/4/17/18412156/george-lucas-game-of-thrones-got-season-8-hbo-final-behind-the-scenes-jon-snow-daenerys-targeryen)

I knew something felt off about that Jon and Dany scene...

Spinal
04-18-2019, 04:07 PM
Nutter asked him to talk to the actors about their performances? Oy vey.

Dukefrukem
04-19-2019, 11:01 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=106&v=puxjtmU7H70

Ezee E
04-22-2019, 02:34 AM
Now that's an episode!

Wryan
04-22-2019, 02:48 AM
Superb episode, even if 3/4th of the running time was "let's sit and chat about how we're about to die. How's things with you?"

But so many terrific scenes in this episode.

Grouchy
04-22-2019, 02:52 AM
For some reason I was way more underwhelmed by this one than the last one. Too many popcorn moments and easy callbacks for me.

But that Brienne scene was something else, though. Very well played by all involved.

So, next episode is battle from the start, right? Unless they choose to be a tease and spend the twenty opening minutes on King's Landing or something like that.

Irish
04-22-2019, 03:02 AM
That was silly and manipulative but I got a kick out of it.

But ... no way anybody in that throne room lets Jaime live.

Didn't like the implication that they might win if they kill The Night King ... that's an extremely old genre trope going back to westerns and cowboy and Indian shit.

Best scene was Brianne getting knighted. (Although it made me think she's totally gonna die.)

Kinda surprised (but not really?) that they burned 2 episodes on very little plot when there's so little time left.

Irish
04-22-2019, 03:17 AM
LOL, best meme I've seen so far:



https://i.imgur.com/gCgRcMC.jpg

Ezee E
04-22-2019, 03:48 AM
Over/Under on Deaths next episode? 3.5
I'm taking the over and going with:
Gendry
Beric
Podrick
Grey Worm
Jorah

Who Kills The Night King? Or does he night die next episode?
I say he dies by Jaime.

Peng
04-22-2019, 07:54 AM
That was the most GoT has ever felt like its old self (in a good way) for a non-battle/event episode since maybe mid-season 6. Both this and last week might be perceived as "filler", but this one's focus on deeply felt rumination and shared history between these people makes it feels "character-driven" rather than merely "table-setting" like last week. Now we go into a battle episode (80 minutes!) with deeper attachment and real trepidation for these guys. Really good stuff.

Wryan
04-22-2019, 11:03 AM
Also, this episode was so "pre-Helms Deep/Titanic as it starts sinking" it almost hurt.

But yes the knighting scene was just beautiful. Also, even tho Tormund risks total Flanderization, he's still funny as hell.

Dukefrukem
04-22-2019, 12:40 PM
If I could go back and change all my answers of the game.

I dont think Jaime is dying at all anymore.

Dukefrukem
04-22-2019, 12:41 PM
Over/Under on Deaths next episode? 3.5
.

Way over.

bac0n
04-22-2019, 01:46 PM
Any other horror fans out there who's first reaction to Arya and Gendry's scene together was sex=death in shows involving zombies. I've also got a real baaaaad feeling about Brienne's chances, as much as I loved the scene where she got knighted.

As a side - is it assumed that people viewing this thread is up to speed on all the GoT episodes? Otherwise, I'll continue to use spoiler tags.

Dukefrukem
04-22-2019, 02:18 PM
I mean, it's the final season so I think this thread is fair game for non-spoilers. People caring about this show should not venture in here.

Grouchy
04-22-2019, 02:27 PM
I think Brienne is pretty much a goner because of the knighting scene, yeah. I'm not sure about Gendry and Arya though I voted that she dies in the game (not here, I played my own without realizing you guys were playing) and that Gendry lives. Not so sure about either anymore. That was the most unexpected and crowd-pleasing romance ever.

EDIT: What's Arya's weapon anyway? Just a spear?

Dukefrukem
04-22-2019, 02:30 PM
I think Brienne pretty much bought the farm with the knighting scene, yeah. I'm not sure about Gendry and Arya though I voted that she dies in the game (not here, I played my own without realizing you guys were playing) and that Gendry lives. Not so sure about either anymore. That was the most unexpected and crowd-pleasing romance ever.

EDIT: What's Arya's weapon anyway? Just a spear?

I think it's on the same lines as Darth Maul's lightsaber. Dragon Glass at both ends?

Ezee E
04-22-2019, 02:55 PM
Benioff/Weiss do follow convention a lot more, and would make sense to have Brienne's potential death the most affecting. Can't really see her having any further of an arc after next week, unless she were to help complete Tormund's.

The way they talk about that crypt makes me think it'll be the absolute least safest place of all. Outside of Sam, any other notable characters down there? Tyrion and Varys? Tyrion likely sneaks his way out of there.

Spinal
04-22-2019, 03:07 PM
Gilly

Spinal
04-22-2019, 03:09 PM
Whoa, could the Night King raise dead Stark kings?

Spinal
04-22-2019, 03:11 PM
Probably need more than just bones

Ezee E
04-22-2019, 03:22 PM
Was kind of wondering that maybe the show pulls an "Aliens" and you see the White Walkers in the distance, only for the Wights to enter in through the crypts to open the battle. I'm not sure how long those tunnels run.

If there were a MAJOR death. As in Targarean, Lannister, or Stark... the only one that I figure could die would be Bran. Can't imagine he has much to offer after the battle.

Scar
04-22-2019, 03:59 PM
I mean, it's the final season so I think this thread is fair game for non-spoilers. People caring about this show should not venture in here.

I agree.

Grouchy
04-22-2019, 04:06 PM
If there were a MAJOR death. As in Targarean, Lannister, or Stark... the only one that I figure could die would be Bran. Can't imagine he has much to offer after the battle.
Seriously? Bran is, like, my least likely candidate to die next Sunday. And ironically, that's because it feels like he has a lot left to do as a character compared to others.

Dukefrukem
04-22-2019, 04:13 PM
Whoa, could the Night King raise dead Stark kings?

OMG. Ned Stark is back and fights Jon!!!!!!!

amberlita
04-22-2019, 04:48 PM
If I could go back and change all my answers of the game.

I dont think Jaime is dying at all anymore.

Why is that? To me this episode makes him very likely to die. He’s not only featured in a lot of it (and considering the size of this cast that’s saying something, but he’s basically tied up most of his relationships. He made peace with Bran, bonded with his brother, and his death would complete his redemption arc for the North and how his actions in episode one helped kick all this off. Plus all the Brienne stuff and setting up the opportunity for him to die in her arms.

Not for nothing: the war counsel was the worst battle planning ever. Why are they bothering with any of this infantry bullshit? If people die out there they will just become members of the undead army. The plan should be “we all hide inside Winterfell while the dragons smoke their asses”. The dragons are an afterthought despite being the only way they can possibly survive.

Spinal
04-22-2019, 04:49 PM
Seriously? Bran is, like, my least likely candidate to die next Sunday. And ironically, that's because it feels like he has a lot left to do as a character compared to others.

Agreed. Sam's speech about Bran representing cultural memory tells you why. Unless you think the Night King actually emerges victorious somehow, Bran outlives everyone.

Grouchy
04-22-2019, 04:55 PM
Not for nothing: the war counsel was the worst battle planning ever. Why are they bothering with any of this infantry bullshit? If people die out there they will just become members of the undead army. The plan should be “we all hide inside Winterfell while the dragons smoke their asses”. The dragons are an afterthought despite being the only way they can possibly survive.
Hahah we said this exact same thing. That's Aegon Targaryen for you - great warrior, shit strategist.

I made a stag stew with red wine and potatoes (stag a la Robert Baratheon) and none of the seven friends that were with me took a single photo. It took so long to get done that we ate the whole pot at 21:30 like famished animals. I fail at social media.

Dukefrukem
04-22-2019, 04:57 PM
Why is that? To me this episode makes him very likely to die. He’s not only featured in a lot of it (and considering the size of this cast that’s saying something, but he’s basically tied up most of his relationships. He made peace with Bran, bonded with his brother, and his death would complete his redemption arc for the North and how his actions in episode one helped kick all this off. Plus all the Brienne stuff and setting up the opportunity for him to die in her arms.

Not for nothing: the war counsel was the worst battle planning ever. Why are they bothering with any of this infantry bullshit? If people die out there they will just become members of the undead army. The plan should be “we all hide inside Winterfell while the dragons smoke their asses”. The dragons are an afterthought despite being the only way they can possibly survive.

I think he's going to end up killing his sister and he needs to survive this for that to happen. Plus, the amount of times during they episode where they all agreed they were going to die, was on the nose for me.

Spinal
04-22-2019, 05:13 PM
Also, where is Melisandre and what is she up to? She talked about this battle every time she opened her mouth and now she's suspiciously absent. Something big's going to happen with her next week, I would think.

Irish
04-22-2019, 05:16 PM
I'll be very surprised if any major character dies from here on out. (Major as in: They've been on the show since the first episode.)

The best fan theory I heard for next ep is:

The Night King isn't at Winterfell. He split his army, left a token force in the north, and is marching on King's Landing.

Wryan
04-22-2019, 05:28 PM
That'd be awesome. We didn't necessarily see him in this second episode, so who knows.

Wryan
04-22-2019, 05:29 PM
Also, it'd be hilarious if the Mountain, being more or less undead himself, gets controlled by NK and just turns and kills Cersei.

Scar
04-22-2019, 06:31 PM
I'll be very surprised if any major character dies from here on out. (Major as in: They've been on the show since the first episode.)

The best fan theory I heard for next ep is:

The Night King isn't at Winterfell. He split his army, left a token force in the north, and is marching on King's Landing.

Oooooh. Me likey.

Ezee E
04-22-2019, 07:32 PM
Also, where is Melisandre and what is she up to? She talked about this battle every time she opened her mouth and now she's suspiciously absent. Something big's going to happen with her next week, I would think.

Arya/Melisandre intrigues me more than Clegane Bowl.

While Clegane Bowl will likely happen, outside of it just being a heavyweight battle, there's really nothing else that's special about it, right?

Dukefrukem
04-22-2019, 07:34 PM
Maybe that wasn't Arya fuckin' Gendry.

Ezee E
04-22-2019, 07:34 PM
Oooooh. Me likey.

Ha... This would really be able to extend the Night King's character and some ramifications for all of Westeros.

Winterfell comes out victorious but depleted...

Ope, time to take on the same army, plus Night king and Dragon... But with a depleted squad.

Cersei/Mountain naturally got lucky and head to Essos with the Bank.

bac0n
04-22-2019, 08:25 PM
Maybe that wasn't Arya fuckin' Gendry.

Ooh, maybe it was Jaqen H'ghar?

Wryan
04-22-2019, 08:27 PM
Ooh, maybe it was Jaqen H'ghar?

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/46058176/you-had-my-curiosity-but-now-you-have-my-attention.jpg

Ezee E
04-22-2019, 09:41 PM
Ha. THe worst theory I've seen out there is that Littlefinger wasn't actually killed last year, and had someone "wearing his face" and he got the hell out.

Grouchy
04-22-2019, 09:57 PM
Ha. THe worst theory I've seen out there is that Littlefinger wasn't actually killed last year, and had someone "wearing his face" and he got the hell out.
Heh, I think we saw the same YouTube video.

The theory is far fetched and makes very little sense but it's true that one of the scenes the maker of the video offers as proof (Littlefinger giving some random girl a silver coin shortly before they kill him) hints at the Faceless Men appearing again. And really, if they don't, that whole storyline really went nowhere.

Grouchy
04-22-2019, 09:59 PM
I'll be very surprised if any major character dies from here on out. (Major as in: They've been on the show since the first episode.)
You're crazy. Either Jon or Daenerys will die before the finale, and Jaime's prospects aren't looking so good either.

I like that Night King prediction.

Irish
04-22-2019, 10:42 PM
You're crazy. Either Jon or Daenerys will die before the finale, and Jaime's prospects aren't looking so good either.

Dany is a meme. She not only iconic to the series, she's a pop culture icon in her own right. No way they kill her. (Jesus, can you imagine the twitter mobs if the "Mother of Dragons" dies and a man ascends the throne?)

If Jon dies, he will need to have the grandest death in all television because he's already died once and bringing him back just to die again ~2 seasons later will rub people the wrong way. Maybe that can be done but I don't think Benioff & Weiss are capable of pulling it off.

Jaime could go, and I saw a theory suggesting that he will fall killing the Night King and then die in Brianne's arms. That seems a little more likely because it'd actually be a decent end to his character.

But then again I keep thinking this is no longer a self contained story --- it's a franchise. Every one of the major characters has a vocal and active fanbase. And HBO/ Warners / ATT is too chickenshit to risk a "bad" ending that will keep people from watching subsequent shows.

I think they will pull their punches one way or another. Genre shows are all about fan service these days and GoT is obviously not immune to that.

Spinal
04-22-2019, 10:53 PM
The ending to this story was decided well before Twitter existed. I don't think that has any impact.

Irish
04-22-2019, 10:59 PM
You're assuming they will follow Martin's blueprint. But the show is its own thing now, and Hollywood producers being Hollywood producers ... why would they listen to the writer?

Spinal
04-22-2019, 10:59 PM
They said their story ends in the same place as Martin's.

Irish
04-22-2019, 11:06 PM
See also: previous sentence about not alienating fans. Like, I don't think B&W would publicly announce that they deviated from the novels and went contrary to the wishes of Ser George of Martins. Because they know saying so could negatively impact the show.

Granted, I'm more cynical about producers & press than most.

ETA: To put it another way. Dany --- and the show --- are bigger than the books now, and certainly bigger than Martin.

Ezee E
04-22-2019, 11:55 PM
It's been pretty well agreed that the show and book will end in the same result, and also be bittersweet.

But with that, even in the books, I agree with your idea that Dany can't die at this battle, and Jon's would have to be some type of sacrifice for all situation, which I don't think will happen either. Tyrion, Jaime, Arya, Sansa, and The Hound are the others that I would give a 0% chance at dying in the battle.

Grouchy
04-23-2019, 01:06 AM
See also: previous sentence about not alienating fans. Like, I don't think B&W would publicly announce that they deviated from the novels and went contrary to the wishes of Ser George of Martins. Because they know saying so could negatively impact the show.

Granted, I'm more cynical about producers & press than most.

ETA: To put it another way. Dany --- and the show --- are bigger than the books now, and certainly bigger than Martin.
I see the obvious truth in what you're saying but I'd also like to believe B&W are grateful and honest enough not to betray the ending of the saga, at least not in spirit - specially since they have the unwanted task of getting there before the actual creator of the story.

What hooked me on the show was its unpredictability and lack of compromise. Well, that and the wonderful writing. It's obvious that the writing went down several notches when they ran out of source material, because it's easier to adapt someone's labored invention and rich dialogue into the rythm and pacings of a tense TV show (which B&W excelled at) than create your own detail from a general blueprint. But I hope they stick to that blueprint. It's somewhat of an unheard of situation in Western fiction and fandom, though the Japanese are used to it.

Peng
04-23-2019, 02:35 AM
looooool

1120358907074031617

Dukefrukem
04-23-2019, 10:42 AM
That's hot.

Spinal
04-23-2019, 04:35 PM
The one who I feel is guaranteed to die next week is Grey Worm.

"Someday, when this is all over, let's get out of here and visit your home island with the peaceful people and the butterflies ..."

Yeah ... dead.

Ezee E
04-23-2019, 11:39 PM
From predictions around, it looks like Grey Worm has the best odds to die, with Brienne being a surprising second.

Gizmo
04-24-2019, 01:11 PM
I don't disagree

[ETM]
04-24-2019, 05:57 PM
I will never understand these prediction games. Who dies is literally at the bottom of the list of things that interest me about this final season.

Sent from my Mi A1 using Tapatalk

Morris Schæffer
04-24-2019, 08:07 PM
I'll be very surprised if any major character dies from here on out. (Major as in: They've been on the show since the first episode.)

The best fan theory I heard for next ep is:

The Night King isn't at Winterfell. He split his army, left a token force in the north, and is marching on King's Landing.

But with next week's episode looking like the big battle, one that took double as many days to film as Battle of the Bastards, it would be unlikely if the opposing forces weren't gonna pull out all the stops next week.

Morris Schæffer
04-24-2019, 08:11 PM
The one who I feel is guaranteed to die next week is Grey Worm.

"Someday, when this is all over, let's get out of here and visit your home island with the peaceful people and the butterflies ..."

Yeah ... dead.

Ha yeah, this now comes to mind

https://i.redd.it/6lipdqnay8a21.gif

Morris Schæffer
04-24-2019, 08:14 PM
Jaime could go, and I saw a theory suggesting that he will fall killing the Night King and then die in Brianne's arms. That seems a little more likely because it'd actually be a decent end to his character.


Wasn't Bronn dispatched by Cersei to take out the Lannister boys? Seemed like a big deal in episode 1. Like that's gonna be a scene later on.

Ezee E
04-25-2019, 12:38 AM
Wasn't Bronn dispatched by Cersei to take out the Lannister boys? Seemed like a big deal in episode 1. Like that's gonna be a scene later on.

Most definitely will be.

Morris Schæffer
04-25-2019, 09:16 AM
That was silly and manipulative but I got a kick out of it.

But ... no way anybody in that throne room lets Jaime live..

I'm sensing a major redemptive arc here, wouldn't be surprised if Jaimie ends up saving the day.

Morris Schæffer
04-25-2019, 09:17 AM
Most definitely will be.

But no way Bronn will actually do this. If anything, he'll end up joining the Lannister Brothers. Poor judgment by Cersei.

Grouchy
04-25-2019, 03:34 PM
But no way Bronn will actually do this. If anything, he'll end up joining the Lannister Brothers. Poor judgment by Cersei.
You're not the first one I've encountered saying this and I don't understand where it's coming from. Bronn is charming, sure, but his whole character is that he's an unscrupulous sellsowrd. Hence that set-up scene.

Ezee E
04-25-2019, 04:10 PM
Someone brought up that Tyrion had a line in the first season that if he was ever to be hunted down for money, he'd double it to go back on the person that wanted him killed.

Spinal
04-25-2019, 04:15 PM
You're not the first one I've encountered saying this and I don't understand where it's coming from. Bronn is charming, sure, but his whole character is that he's an unscrupulous sellsowrd. Hence that set-up scene.

The problem is not with Bronn's character. It's with Cersei's. There is absolutely NO way she would trust Bronn to do this mission. She is far too paranoid. It's the weakest story element of the new season in my opinion and really just feels like they need something for Bronn to do.

Morris Schæffer
04-25-2019, 04:32 PM
Didn't Bronn save Jaimie from fiery bbq death in the previous season? A mere sellsword would probably run in the other direction than to face almost certain death to save another.

Irish
04-25-2019, 04:34 PM
You're not much of a mercenary if you let your employer die.

Morris Schæffer
04-25-2019, 04:38 PM
You're not much of a mercenary if you let your employer die.

Point taken!

Irish
04-25-2019, 04:43 PM
The problem is not with Bronn's character. It's with Cersei's. There is absolutely NO way she would trust Bronn to do this mission. She is far too paranoid. It's the weakest story element of the new season in my opinion and really just feels like they need something for Bronn to do.

Yep. Before HBO ran out of source material, character choice never felt contrived. Whatever else his faults, Martin knows his characters and it never felt like he was forcing them to fit the plot.

But lately: Tyrion trust Cersei, Winterfell accepts Jaime, Cersei trusts Bronn, etc.

Each of those seem to me to be small violations of character. I still get a kick out of the show and all, but that sorta sloppiness makes Martin's work look shabbier than it really is.

Grouchy
04-25-2019, 05:17 PM
The problem is not with Bronn's character. It's with Cersei's. There is absolutely NO way she would trust Bronn to do this mission. She is far too paranoid. It's the weakest story element of the new season in my opinion and really just feels like they need something for Bronn to do.


Each of those seem to me to be small violations of character. I still get a kick out of the show and all, but that sorta sloppiness makes Martin's work look shabbier than it really is.
I'm in the middle of reading the fourth and five books (there's a fan made combined reading order online called A Feast with Dragons) and Martin's character work is nothing short of excellent. His writing is really addictive as well - I'm sure you know this but every chapter is told from the perspective of one character and contains A SHITLOAD OF INFORMATION spread out in a way that feels completely natural and makes the story progress slowly but assuredly. While reading the last two books I realized that a lot of what we're seeing as flaws in the last three seasons are contrivances that come out of needing such character to be here or there or this storyline to advance up to there without having the right character to do it, so they just take as much from the source material as they can and run with it.

I bet the Bronn thing is like that too, some Martin storyline from the last books that they don't really know how to do better so they just call on Bronn, a fun character with a reliable fanbase.

Spinal
04-25-2019, 05:53 PM
I don't know what Martin thinks of the combined reading method, but I thought it greatly improved the experience. A Feast for Crows is a bit of a slog otherwise, leaving you for long stretches in Cersei's demented mindset and Brienne's largely futile quest, and without Tyrion and Daenerys to spice things up. Reading them together, you can better appreciate the whole.

Grouchy
04-25-2019, 06:19 PM
I don't know what Martin thinks of the combined reading method, but I thought it greatly improved the experience. A Feast for Crows is a bit of a slog otherwise, leaving you for long stretches in Cersei's demented mindset and Brienne's largely futile quest, and without Tyrion and Daenerys to spice things up. Reading them together, you can better appreciate the whole.
Yeah, I really don't know if I'd want to read through excess of a thousand pages, only to then come back chronologically to near the beginning of that novel to read up even more pages on what Tyrion, Daenerys, Jon and Davos had been doing with that time. The combined reading order seemed the less insane option in comparison.

Ezee E
04-25-2019, 06:56 PM
I'm about to finish book 3 and heard about book 4 and not having Tyrion/Daenerys/Jon Snow... I wonder where one can get the combined book which is kind of how it was intended to be anyway, but was just too long.

Even in the books, I can't really think of a mercenary that Cersei would send out on such a mission. Euron Greyjoy is most effective at sea. The Mountain is a bodyguard. Meryn Trant is dead. It'd have to be a spy at this point. I trust the Bronn piece because he is a guy that has no loyalties, but she sure better have The Mountain next to her when he returns.

Spinal
04-25-2019, 07:04 PM
I'm about to finish book 3 and heard about book 4 and not having Tyrion/Daenerys/Jon Snow... I wonder where one can get the combined book which is kind of how it was intended to be anyway, but was just too long.


Just follow this: http://afeastwithdragons.com/

The only weird part is Jon II in Dance with Dragons which recaps much of the Samwell chapter that precedes it, only from Jon's perspective.

Grouchy
04-25-2019, 07:14 PM
I wonder where one can get the combined book which is kind of how it was intended to be anyway, but was just too long.
I tried and tried but couldn't find someone who had uploaded the combined book in EPUB... So, yeah, I just follow that link Spinal provided and jump from book to book in my Kindle.

By the way the closing chapters of Book 3 are fucking amazing, even if you already know the events from the show. Enjoy!


The only weird part is Jon II in Dance with Dragons which recaps much of the Samwell chapter that precedes it, only from Jon's perspective.
I just passed that part, there are pages in Jon's chapter which are just the exact same dialogue from Samwell's chapter but with Jon's thoughts instead of Sam's. Weird way to read a book.

Ezee E
04-25-2019, 08:04 PM
Just follow this: http://afeastwithdragons.com/

The only weird part is Jon II in Dance with Dragons which recaps much of the Samwell chapter that precedes it, only from Jon's perspective.

Perhaps I just skip one of them... probably the Samwell chapter.

Grouchy
04-25-2019, 08:10 PM
Perhaps I just skip one of them... probably the Samwell chapter.
They both contain information the other does not. Just skip the repeat part when you get to it.

Grouchy
04-25-2019, 08:38 PM
Update, I fucked up and read the wrong Daenerys chapter!

Spinal
04-25-2019, 09:48 PM
Update, I fucked up and read the wrong Daenerys chapter!

Well, now you have to start over all the way at the beginning of the first book. :)

Gizmo
04-25-2019, 11:28 PM
I was about 75% the way through book 5 when the show passed it, and I stopped being as invested in reading it. Now I don't remember what I've read, so I just decided to start over at book 1, and even though I'm only about 100 pages in, I'm picking up on some foreshadowing and subtle things I missed the first time through. Plus, I remember more of the minor characters better (even though there aren't too many yet).

Peng
04-26-2019, 02:07 AM
I heard long about Book 4 and 5 before I finished 3, so I followed an online guide combining both books, and that was a great experience than it would be otherwise, even if it required switching back and forth between two thick books quite a bit lol

Grouchy
04-26-2019, 02:32 AM
We're like sponsored by this online reading order. We should be getting paid even if they aren't.

Spinal
04-26-2019, 04:16 PM
Funny how we just waited a year and a half for this new season and yet the weeks in between episodes feel soooo long.

Wryan
04-29-2019, 03:03 AM
Good gravy. That was the Maggie-shot-Mr.-Burns of this tv show.

They should have worked on the lighting a bit more before wrapping the bow on this episode.

But! Lots of spectacular moments. Great stuff overall. Who would have thought this episode would be less Helm's Deep and more World War Z.

Ezee E
04-29-2019, 03:31 AM
Poor Mormont family.

Ezee E
04-29-2019, 04:08 AM
All hail Grey Worm for making it alive. He may get to Dorne after all.

The buildup to the battle was as good as anything the show has done. The first attack and the use of the flames only to see them eventually die out was also quite terrifying.

Sapochnik definitely has a handle on battle scenes, separating characters, and then using them to not only tell us geography of Winterfell, but progress the battle as well. All the sides were well done, but I still wonder what the heck Bran Stark's warging served except to benefit the audience.
The crypts were as scary as ever with everyone trapped down there. Did Gilly survive? I don't recall seeing her. (Turns out she survived).

Several of the predictions all come to fruition here for The Hound, Beric, Arya, and Melisandre. Whether people want to believe in this Lord of Light or not...

Sometimes annoying seeing characters that you're fairly sure had died, only to find out that they weren't quite killed. Brienne at the beginning, Gilly in the crypts, Samwell wrapped in corpses... But the terror was real.

Definitely a cheering moment for Arya. Although I think it could've been cooler if she had a White Walker Mask, and surprised the Night King... but nonetheless, a very cool moment.

And what, like 100 people left in Winterfell + one suffering dragon?

bac0n
04-29-2019, 04:30 AM
Poor Mormont family.

At least they both went out Klingon Style


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

DavidSeven
04-29-2019, 08:06 AM
The show is in full Hollywood blockbuster mode, for better and worse. Good production elements (sans lighting) and an exciting finish for sure, but I’m surprised they let every noteworthy character walk away from this. A decade of white-walker myth-making culminated in a rote — though well-done — battle scene. It seems so straight forward given the build up. Hoping for something unexpected in the final games that lives up to the story’s subversive roots.

Peng
04-29-2019, 09:29 AM
I enjoyed the episode, but yeah, some underwhelming writing and wtf lightning). I normally think that the show's writing for battle episodes have always been sharp, intimate, and surprising, but between this and Beyond the Wall, it seems like they have a real problem with writing one with White Walkers (Hardhome is more of a straight-up slaughter) and more fantastical elements. Now hoping that the one in episode 5, fully with only humans this time, delivers. This is exciting and all, and when there is a source of light it's fucking beautiful (Sapochnik has a great eyes as always), but the only moments that really grab and/or move me are from just Arya and Lyanna Mormont (man, the latter's scenes both kicked ass and broke my heart).

Dukefrukem
04-29-2019, 12:09 PM
That Arya library scene was awesome. (i posted this in the wrong thread last night from my phone)

Agreed on the lighting and when the snow storm hit, you couldn't see a fucking a think.

And there was a period of time where Jon Snow was just sitting on a dragon watching; I thought to myself, shouldn't you be burning the fucking undead army that's invading your castle.

Also, Melisandre comes out of nowhere and is basically a Dues Ex Machina for this episode.

Wryan
04-29-2019, 01:02 PM
There were certainly some major deficiencies in this episode. The rushing tsunami of wights when the show can use its impact versus a much smaller number of individual opponents when the plot requires it. Several people being shown absolutely surrounded or crushed with their backs to a wall (and at that point having been fighting for a while so they are certainly exhausted beyond measure) but nah they survived, it's all good, son. They are going to need to work some major Clue "here's what was happening the whole time that you didn't see" with Bran's warging, otherwise it's a silly way of tidying up the mess.

Lazlo
04-29-2019, 01:18 PM
Yeah, I was really not a fan of this episode. A sampling of the text conversation between my girlfriend and I:

Anna:
WTF GoT
Griffin:
In what way
Anna:
Just felt a bit ‘oh, that’s it?’
Griffin:
Oh it was a flat out terrible episode.
Just the sloppiest storytelling, most incomprehensible filmmaking, stupidest battle planning, and unnecessarily padded runtime.
And, to your point, thoroughly underwhelming and mind-bogglingly inconsequential feeling.
Anna:
it looked terrible!
Griffin:
Yeah their obsession with trying to make night look more realistic is a total failure.
And they’ve done excellent night battles in the past. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Criminal misuse of the dragons in the battle plan.
Melisandre shows up to do nothing important at all other than to give Arya a pep talk.
Bran wargs into ravens for no reason at all. Not Ghost, not a dragon, not something else useful. Is Raeghal dead or not? Unclear. Seems like the only people who survived are the people we can name minus Jorah and Lyanna and Theon (who is NOT a good man, Bran who can see all the horrible things he’s done). Why did Arya need to Jurassic-Park-kitchen her way through the library for five minutes? Bleeeechhh
Night King motivation not expanded upon at all. Melisandre dead having achieved nothing. Boo hiss.
Anna:
WHY DON’T WE KNOW MORE ABOUT THE DAMN NIGHT KING
Agreed on all this
Griffin:
Bran better have gone somewhere interesting beyond just those stupid ravens
Anna:
WTF was Bran doing that whole time? Why does it matter if he’s the three-eyed raven if that’s all?
for reals
Griffin:
UGGGH just thinking about how poorly planned and executed the battle was is infuriating. These are the finest military minds Westeros has to offer and they send their cavalry into blackness to die? They withhold their air power inexplicably? I mean, I guess their whole deal was to hold on long enough for the Night King to show himself, but no way did so many people have to die. Dragon fire vs. wights was super effective!

Grouchy
04-29-2019, 01:34 PM
The show is in full Hollywood blockbuster mode, for better and worse.
For real. This went from being one of the shows with the smartest writing in TV history to almost a guilty pleasure. That's a weird trajectory.


Why did Arya need to Jurassic-Park-kitchen her way through the library for five minutes? Bleeeechhh
Hey, this was actually the highlight of the episode for me. Great scene.

Ezee E
04-29-2019, 01:54 PM
I don't mind that we don't get to find out about the Night King. That's part of what makes them terrifying.

But going forward, two episodes from now looks to be another "biggie" as far as battles will go.

What's funny is that people talk about how predictable it is, but most missed their predictions of who would be killed. I went 1/5, and not really taking Lyanna and Edd into account as "bigger" characters.

With that in mind, probably the remaining deaths this season:

Euron - 1000000000%
Cersei - 100%
Mountain VS. Hound - 1 goes
Qyburn

Something better happen to that damn bank.

Lazlo
04-29-2019, 01:55 PM
Hey, this was actually the highlight of the episode for me. Great scene.

It just felt like a waste of time to me. Maybe cool in a vacuum, but it didn't drive the story. The only purpose it seemed to serve was to have a change of pace or sense of variety.

Lazlo
04-29-2019, 02:00 PM
I don't mind that we don't get to find out about the Night King. That's part of what makes them terrifying.

Mystery can be frightening but here it felt soulless. Which had been a relatively popular critique of him in the lead-up to this that I'd not subscribed to, expecting a payoff. There needs to be more to Bran's actions in this episode. His off-hand remark last week about the Night King wanting to erase the memory of human existence was just not enough and his warging into ravens was completely useless except to give the show an excuse to change its POV.

Ezee E
04-29-2019, 02:03 PM
Mystery can be frightening but here it felt soulless. Which had been a relatively popular critique of him in the lead-up to this that I'd not subscribed to, expecting a payoff. There needs to be more to Bran's actions in this episode. His off-hand remark last week about the Night King wanting to erase the memory of human existence was just not enough and his warging into ravens was completely useless except to give the show an excuse to change its POV.

Bran's pretty pointless for sure.

Lazlo
04-29-2019, 02:08 PM
Bran's pretty pointless for sure.

But the thing is that he shouldn't be. The show is embarrassed by its fantasy elements to the point of being unclear and underwhelming. If you're going to have this dude and spend so much time and effort, he needs to feel essential. If he's just a walking library, what's the point?

Spinal
04-29-2019, 02:22 PM
Spectacular in execution, but also spectacularly ordinary from a writing point of view.

All Dothrakis - dead in under 3 minutes. Samwell Tarly - still hacking away 8 hours later.

Meanwhile, the Lyanna Mormont scene was kind of cool, but just didn't feel like it belonged in this world. She's a brave little girl, not a superhero.

And it's a huge cheat to have Arya just jump from off-screen like a cat in a horror movie instead of giving us an idea of how she got there.

This is the kind of stuff that this show used to critique with its meticulous verisimilitude. It's not that it's "bad", it's just that it's the typical fantasy stuff we let writers get away with because they're feeding our senses with pretty pictures and sexy characters.

The bright side is that this episode can't possibly spoil the books because there is no way any of this would be in Martin's story.

bac0n
04-29-2019, 02:22 PM
I thought that Samwell pointed out his importance last week pretty succinctly - Bran represents the memory of mankind. The Night King not only wanted to destroy humanity, but erase all memory of them as well.

Dukefrukem
04-29-2019, 02:36 PM
I disagree that Melisandre did nothing. She did two things.

Lazlo
04-29-2019, 02:39 PM
I disagree that Melisandre did nothing. She did two things.

Neither of those things were things only she could have done. Strafing run from the dragons lights that trench. Arya arguably shouldn't have needed a pep talk.

Lazlo
04-29-2019, 02:41 PM
I thought that Samwell pointed out his importance last week pretty succinctly - Bran represents the memory of mankind. The Night King not only wanted to destroy humanity, but erase all memory of them as well.

Okay, but why is that the thing he wants to do? What does he gain? What are the stakes for him if he fails? That's-just-what-he-does is a weak motivation. I liked that explanation from Bran, but figured there'd be more to it. And maybe there will be. Bran's time travel abilities have been completely absent this season.

Grouchy
04-29-2019, 02:50 PM
Arya arguably shouldn't have needed a pep talk.
But it wasn't just a pep talk, right? She was giving her the idea to use the Faces to get close to the Night King. At least that's how I read the "blue eyes" line. Arya disguised herself as one of the Wights.

Lazlo
04-29-2019, 02:56 PM
But it wasn't just a pep talk, right? She was giving her the idea to use the Faces to get close to the Night King. At least that's how I read the "blue eyes" line. Arya disguised herself as one of the Wights.

I don't think there's much to support the use of faces like that. In Season 3 Melisandre told Arya that she'd close many eyes and it was a callback to that. Maybe pep talk is a little too flip. But if all Melisandre was there for was to light that trench and remind Arya of their conversation from many years earlier, eh, somewhat underwhelming.

Dukefrukem
04-29-2019, 04:00 PM
I don't think there's much to support the use of faces like that. In Season 3 Melisandre told Arya that she'd close many eyes and it was a callback to that. Maybe pep talk is a little too flip. But if all Melisandre was there for was to light that trench and remind Arya of their conversation from many years earlier, eh, somewhat underwhelming.

I was annoyed by their relationship. This episode didn't have a "Previously on GoT" intro like most episodes do. So I couldn't remember if they had even met before and under what circumstances.

Spinal
04-29-2019, 04:05 PM
Even though the nature of using faces is kept mysterious, I get the sense that at least some preparation period is needed and you can't just grab a face on the go.

Plus, my guess is that they're saving that trick for Cersei this season.

Dukefrukem
04-29-2019, 04:07 PM
Even though the nature of using faces is kept mysterious, I get the sense that at least some preparation period is needed and you can't just grab a face on the go.

Plus, my guess is that they're saving that trick for Cersei this season.

I'm convinced more than ever that Jamie is going to kill Cersei.

Spinal
04-29-2019, 04:39 PM
I'm convinced more than ever that Jamie is going to kill Cersei.

Well, you're leading the prediction game, and I'm in last. So I'd go with you.

Lazlo
04-29-2019, 07:23 PM
Watching the behind-the-scenes stuff, it's amazing how well lit the set actually is. It's all down to the color grade that fucked it all up, combined with their apparent disregard for cable and streaming compression and people's horrible TV settings.

Working in TV, I know it's super hard. We do our best to make it look good before it leaves the building, but once it goes to the network and then to the cable providers, it's out of our hands and never ends up looking like it did when we finished it. It's frustrating to no end. But they really put themselves in a bad spot it seems.

I wish there was some option to get a blu-ray delivered to my house every Sunday so I could see it in the best possible circumstances (for home viewing, at least) and still be able to see it on time/avoid spoilers.

Grouchy
04-29-2019, 09:59 PM
I don't think there's much to support the use of faces like that.
Dude, that's how the masks work. Look at the Walder Frey scenes that closed and opened the sixth and seventh seasons, respectively.

This was actually a big issue for my watch group. My friend and I understood Melisandre's blue eyes line like that but none else agreed.

Grouchy
04-29-2019, 10:00 PM
Watching the behind-the-scenes stuff, it's amazing how well lit the set actually is. It's all down to the color grade that fucked it all up, combined with their apparent disregard for cable and streaming compression and people's horrible TV settings.

Working in TV, I know it's super hard. We do our best to make it look good before it leaves the building, but once it goes to the network and then to the cable providers, it's out of our hands and never ends up looking like it did when we finished it. It's frustrating to no end. But they really put themselves in a bad spot it seems.

I wish there was some option to get a blu-ray delivered to my house every Sunday so I could see it in the best possible circumstances (for home viewing, at least) and still be able to see it on time/avoid spoilers.
I thought it might be a color correction issue and I also thought it might have to do with the amount of digital effects. Maybe the finished work just wasn't that convincing and darkening everything was the solution they found.

Ezee E
04-29-2019, 10:09 PM
Spectacular in execution, but also spectacularly ordinary from a writing point of view.

All Dothrakis - dead in under 3 minutes. Samwell Tarly - still hacking away 8 hours later.

Meanwhile, the Lyanna Mormont scene was kind of cool, but just didn't feel like it belonged in this world. She's a brave little girl, not a superhero.

And it's a huge cheat to have Arya just jump from off-screen like a cat in a horror movie instead of giving us an idea of how she got there.

This is the kind of stuff that this show used to critique with its meticulous verisimilitude. It's not that it's "bad", it's just that it's the typical fantasy stuff we let writers get away with because they're feeding our senses with pretty pictures and sexy characters.

The bright side is that this episode can't possibly spoil the books because there is no way any of this would be in Martin's story.

I can see what you mean about Dothraki, and then Samwell hacking away... But it's not like Sam was mowing down wights left and right. He kind of just fell and just made sure nobody touched him with his dragonglass knife it seemed like.

But yeah, I figure GRRM's approach in the book will be far different, even if it ends with Arya hiding in the tree.

Grouchy
04-29-2019, 10:25 PM
Sam got Dolorous Edd killed. Not cool.

Melissandre is the real hero of the episode. She lit shit on fire so that us TV watchers could understand what was going on.

Grouchy
04-29-2019, 10:32 PM
Hahah we said this exact same thing. That's Aegon Targaryen for you - great warrior, shit strategist.
Also, how right was I with this post? I have the same man crush on Jon Snow as the next guy but I bet it was his idea to send all the Dothraki to die. Congratulations, man, you just ended that culture for good.

If you're defending a fortress, I think it's generally a poor idea to leave that fortress to launch the first attack. And that's an advice I would give even for dealing with armies that don't have nechromancers as generals.

Spinal
04-29-2019, 10:39 PM
There is some logic to the fact that Dothraki are strongest in the field and not behind walls. HOWEVER, Jon absolutely should have known that you don't send out bodies that you don't want to face after they get reanimated. Fire, fire and more fire until you can't use fire. The logic of the battle plan was clearly 'what will look good on television?' as opposed to 'what will win the day?'

Lazlo
04-29-2019, 10:41 PM
Dude, that's how the masks work. Look at the Walder Frey scenes that closed and opened the sixth and seventh seasons, respectively.

This was actually a big issue for my watch group. My friend and I understood Melisandre's blue eyes line like that but none else agreed.

I meant there's nothing in this specific episode to support the use of faces. I get how they've worked in the past, but we've always seen her removing it, which we didn't here. And whose face would have worked? It takes prep time to make one of those things and Arya didn't have access to a wight or walker to take their face.

Grouchy
04-29-2019, 10:50 PM
I meant there's nothing in this specific episode to support the use of faces. I get how they've worked in the past, but we've always seen her removing it, which we didn't here. And whose face would have worked? It takes prep time to make one of those things and Arya didn't have access to a wight or walker to take their face.
I agree the storytelling could have been better in general but if she didn't use the masks, what was the point of what Melissandre said to her? You know, the brown eyes, green eyes, blue eyes, something like that... I think she was telling her she could use any mask even if it wasn't someone she'd killed, which is how I assumed the Mission: Impossible trick worked so far in this universe.

EDIT: There's a brief shot of another Wight right before Arya jumps with the dagger where there's a breeze blowing his hair. I assume that's Arya sweeping by him.

Scar
04-29-2019, 11:12 PM
I agree the storytelling could have been better in general but if she didn't use the masks, what was the point of what Melissandre said to her? You know, the brown eyes, green eyes, blue eyes, something like that... I think she was telling her she could use any mask even if it wasn't someone she'd killed, which is how I assumed the Mission: Impossible trick worked so far in this universe.

EDIT: There's a brief shot of another Wight right before Arya jumps with the dagger where there's a breeze blowing his hair. I assume that's Arya sweeping by him.

She emphasized the blue eyes line, basically saying go after the Night King.

Spinal
04-29-2019, 11:15 PM
For reference, here is what she said when she first met Arya: "I see a darkness in you. And in that darkness, eyes staring back at me. Brown eyes, blue eyes, green eyes. Eyes you'll shut forever. We will meet again."

Scar
04-29-2019, 11:17 PM
For reference, here is what she said when she first met Arya: "I see a darkness in you. And in that darkness, eyes staring back at me. Brown eyes, blue eyes, green eyes. Eyes you'll shut forever. We will meet again."

I’ll watch the episode again soon. I was pretty sure she emphasized one of the colors.

Spinal
04-29-2019, 11:18 PM
I’ll watch the episode again soon. I was pretty sure she emphasized one of the colors.

Oh yes, when she repeated it last night, she definitely did. I'm talking about when she first met Arya, back when she retrieved Gendry.

Grouchy
04-29-2019, 11:24 PM
For reference, here is what she said when she first met Arya: "I see a darkness in you. And in that darkness, eyes staring back at me. Brown eyes, blue eyes, green eyes. Eyes you'll shut forever. We will meet again."
Ah, ok, I didn't remember it as a callback to that scene.

Maybe I'm wrong and she didn't use the face - she's just a Level 20 Rogue Assassin.

Scar
04-29-2019, 11:35 PM
Oh yes, when she repeated it last night, she definitely did. I'm talking about when she first met Arya, back when she retrieved Gendry.

Ok, glad I haven’t completely lost my mind, and was sober. Bac0n, on the other hand....

EDIT: Just wrapped a twelve hour day without any real breaks, so I’m extra fried.

Wryan
04-30-2019, 12:53 AM
The behind-the-scenes of The Kill doesn't really explain it either:


https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/bis9my/spoilers_proof_that_arya_didnt _jump_down_from_the/

Tho someone suggested she jumped from Bran's wheelchair ramp lol.

Someone also made this for the intersection between what-the-fuck-is-Bran-doing-to-help and where-the-fuck-did-she-come-from?

https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/bivdig/spoilers_what_bran_was_really_ up_to/

Dukefrukem
04-30-2019, 01:04 AM
Yeh...What the fuck WAS Bran doing?

Grouchy
04-30-2019, 01:08 AM
Getting some drone shots of the battle.

Watashi
04-30-2019, 03:22 AM
I reaaaaally hope this isn't the end of the White Walker mythology because that would be a bummer for them to just go out like that with us. I never bought into "Bran being the Night King" but I expected he would shed light into their motives or history. I never saw Cersei as the "big bad." The very first scene of Episode 1 showed the loom and doom of the WW and the phrase "Winter is Coming" is specifically about this threat.

Peng
04-30-2019, 07:07 AM
1122695073790083072

Morris Schæffer
04-30-2019, 10:38 AM
My assorted thoughts on Episode 3, some with feedback to what some of you said:


- thrilling shit, I was quiet I think the entire episode because it was so pulse-pounding, but there was one moment when I giggled (and felt true elation) and this was the brief close-up on Davos's face when he sees Arya tearing through Wights like it was second nature. Priceless.
- Arya's 'jump-out-of-nowhere' moment struck me as cheap initially, but big thanks to grouchy for pointing out the moment seconds earlier when something seemed to be passing one of the wights. I guess that girl trained hard enough to be able to do that.
- I read a lot that we want to know more about the Night king, perhaps through Bran. On other forums but also here (Watashi). I don't necessarily have a problem with not knowing more about him, made him more eerily menacing, but I am curious to know whether the books do delve into his background? Could it be that the makers are holding back because of the prequel series planned?
- Spinal said it was odd that the Dothraki forces were sent out as the first wave and that this was a dumb move because there was always the risk they were going to be brought back to life by the Night King. Not sure that matters. Full-on battle was always on the menu I suppose so it would have happened eventually whether away from the castle or in closer proxomity. If the Dothraki forces had been rescuscitated when they were inside the castle walls, full-on pandemonium might have erupted sooner. Not sure how the Night King's powers work though.
- It was fun seeing Davos do his best John McClane impression with the two torches, trying to give Daenerys some sense of distance.
- makers tried a bit too hard making us believe some were going to die only for most of them to be ok in the end.
- some breathtaking shots, especially the one with the dragons surrounded by what I assume was a snow cloud whipped up by the Night King. Reminded me briefly of the wide shot in Mad Max Fury Road when they're riding into the sandstorm.
- Yes, it was dark, some of the action somewhat blurry, but overall still coherent enough.
- The bit with Arya indeed made me think immediately of Jurassic Park, as someone else said.
- Duke, Melissandre felt like a huge deus ex machina. You'll get no grief from me this time. Liked her ending though.
- It is telling that my company (global employees 500+) started a deadpool as well. although that is fun, it has become such a fashionable thing to do with regards to GoT that you're mentally just re-arranging the pieces in your head, considering all the possible outcomes and that lessens the impact. Because any outcome can be pondered, just not how it will happen.
- Was this the big battle? I understand there's another one coming. I look more forward to human vs. human battle, I expect the stakes to feel hightened by the time our heroes advance on Cersei's stronghold.

Dukefrukem
04-30-2019, 01:32 PM
This more I think about the last episode the more I hate everything about it.

Lazlo
04-30-2019, 01:38 PM
This more I think about the last episode the more I hate everything about it.

I keep hoping it will all make sense and look better in the context of the rest of the season, but as a stand-alone episode it's one of the worst/most frustrating.

Dukefrukem
04-30-2019, 02:14 PM
dammmmmmmmn. first time seeing this.

1122850640273780737

BTW, can anyone confirm how many dragons are left?

Irish
04-30-2019, 02:35 PM
Melisandre coming out of nowhere isn't an example deus ex. Half the people in Winterfell right now seem to have teleported there from different parts of the world. (How did they all know to show up just as the Night King approached? Did Jon and Dany send out invitations last year?) Deus ex is traditionally a cheap way to resolve plot problems the writers can't quite figure out. Melisandre's actions didn't resolve anything; her lighting shit on fire was spectacle with no effect on the larger plot.

But her late presence indicated a real problem: There are too many characters, and most of em are pretty fucking thin. In practical terms, when you get all of them together in one spot it's tough to find enough for everyone to do. Hence Sansa and Tyrion sitting in the basement twiddling their thumbs, Jaime and Brianne's endless hack-n-slash, and minor characters like Tormund and Ghost disappearing in the middle of the episode.

I've read some wild complaints on twitter and reddit and most of em struck me as odd for a show that's obviously always been (a) a high toned soap opera and (b) built around "trailer moments" --- notable action beats, like Mormont versus the Giant and Arya versus the Night King, are intentionally short, totally gif-able, and designed to be shared on social media.

People elsewhere totally shit on the showrunners and the writing but I think there were some very good emotional swings in the way The Hound and Arya behaved over the course of the episode. The two people who should have been in their element, in a field of endless killing and aggression, both collapsed in the face of it and had to find a way back to themselves.

PS: Oh, and the Arya versus the Night King thing was total fan service bullshit and I fucking LOVED it. I rewound that shit like 3 or 4 times, lol.

Dukefrukem
04-30-2019, 02:41 PM
It still would have been nice if I could actually see what was going on, in the battlefield.

Morris Schæffer
04-30-2019, 03:21 PM
Melisandre's actions didn't resolve anything; her lighting shit on fire was spectacle with no effect on the larger plot.

Wasn't it her who triggered something within Arya towards the end? that indirectly led to Arya vanquishing the Night King?

Peng
04-30-2019, 03:25 PM
Irish, I seem to remember you jumped into watching the show in season 7. There's a marked difference from that season onwards. Yes, it has always been high-toned soap opera and full of gif-able moments. But mimicking GRRM's novels, the show also places heavy stress on minutia character works and little step-by-step plotting to ground them. From season 7 onwards, that grounding decreases dramatically, with plot zooming fast past connective issues and character arcs taking shortcuts, in favor of big picture storytelling. So as much as I still like the show, those complaints of that nature from season 7 onwards are totally valid.

Dukefrukem
04-30-2019, 03:56 PM
Wasn't it her who triggered something within Arya towards the end? that indirectly led to Arya vanquishing the Night King?

Yeh. Something about eyes and "not tonight". People seem to equate this to Arya using a mask to disguise herself as a White Walker. This has not been confirmed though.

Spinal
04-30-2019, 04:09 PM
I can't believe we're still talking about the mask thing. If it was a mask, they would have shown the reveal, just like every other time.

Dukefrukem
04-30-2019, 04:11 PM
I can't believe we're still talking about the mask thing. If it was a mask, they would have shown the reveal, just like every other time.

I don't disagree.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc7Oe7e08pU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7-9Psp8oWw

Wryan
04-30-2019, 04:38 PM
I just took it to mean she was reminding Arya that her destiny is to be a little stabby girl. That's it.

And of course she didn't wear any damn white walker mask. Tho I still wanna know how she accounts for differences in height/build in the people she's face-ing.

Irish
04-30-2019, 04:57 PM
I just took it to mean she was reminding Arya that her destiny is to be a little stabby girl. That's it.

^ This.

"And what do we say to the god of death?"
"Not today."

Arya freaked out in the library and became more panicked as she tried to get away from the wights. The whole sequence was shot like a horror movie with her as the Final Girl.

Melisandre is basically telling her, "FFS, remember who are."

People are reading too much into the eye color thing. I took that as a callback to their first meeting. There's zero indication that she used a mask to sneak up on the Night King. (And anyway, what difference does it make?)

Dukefrukem
04-30-2019, 05:04 PM
My problem with that scene is I didn't remember they met at all. So all that shit about eyes I had forgot. It's definitely just a callback. No mask.

Spinal
04-30-2019, 05:12 PM
I would have no trouble with Arya doing what she did if they just showed us how she got there. It made sense to keep Jaqen's abilities secret because he was a mysterious, peripheral character. This was a climactic moment with a central character against a seemingly unstoppable villain who is surrounded by his deadly minions. It's not enough to say she could do it. You need to show us how after all this time we've spent leading up to this moment. Otherwise, I'm going to assume you just don't know and that's utter crap. It's not how Martin writes. It's not in keeping with what's come before.

Spinal
04-30-2019, 05:13 PM
It's not in keeping with what's come before.

Well, I mean, apart from that whole beyond-the-wall dragon rescue bullshit from last season.

Irish
04-30-2019, 05:25 PM
I would have no trouble with Arya doing what she did if they just showed us how she got there. It made sense to keep Jaqen's abilities secret because he was a mysterious, peripheral character. This was a climactic moment with a central character against a seemingly unstoppable villain who is surrounded by his deadly minions. It's not enough to say she could do it. You need to show us how after all this time we've spent leading up to this moment.

In season 6? 7? she kills Walder Frey's sons and bakes them into a pie, that she then feeds to Frey. After slitting his throat, she adopts his persona and poisons his entire household.

Most of the tricky parts -- like dimembering bodies and baking while in the middle of a mass murder --- she does off-screen. We don't see the details and don't really know how she pulled all that off.

The Frey scenes are completely entertaining and totally ridiculous. As a hardcore fan and as someone who's read the books, why would you accept that on faith but not this episode where she basically pulls a Han Solo, appearing out of nowhere to save the day?

Scar
04-30-2019, 05:27 PM
dammmmmmmmn. first time seeing this.

1122850640273780737

BTW, can anyone confirm how many dragons are left?

You can see two flying in the distance for a split second on the next episode preview.

Spinal
04-30-2019, 05:57 PM
In season 6? 7? she kills Walder Frey's sons and bakes them into a pie, that she then feeds to Frey. After slitting his throat, she adopts his persona and poisons his entire household.

Most of the tricky parts -- like dimembering bodies and baking while in the middle of a mass murder --- she does off-screen. We don't see the details and don't really know how she pulled all that off.

The Frey scenes are completely entertaining and totally ridiculous. As a hardcore fan and as someone who's read the books, why would you accept that on faith but not this episode where she basically pulls a Han Solo, appearing out of nowhere to save the day?

It is a lot easier for me to imagine how Arya could fool the Freys. That does not require explanation. There is a big difference between Freys and White Walkers.

Wryan
04-30-2019, 06:26 PM
Lovely visuals in the episode. I think my fave was top right, the blurry shot of the NK raising dead from atop the dragon, eyes quietly aflame.

https://i.redd.it/bvmyk64k5fv21.png

Grouchy
04-30-2019, 06:53 PM
That's a lot better than what I saw on my TV.

Ezee E
04-30-2019, 07:31 PM
Well, this proves that TVs aren't quite up to movie theater standard like some think!!

I saw the Melisandre talk being inspriation only. I was joking and thinking that her taking a white walker disguise could've been better. If anyone can maneuver and get around Winterfell, it's a Stark, so I didn't think it was completely implausible that she was able to enter the courtyard and hide in a tree after this particular scene.

Mostly just annoyed by people that were completely overtaken by wights, but somehow make it through...

And I swore one of the two dragons died, but I guess not? Daenarys' has to be pretty wounded.

Gizmo
04-30-2019, 08:08 PM
Yeah, I might have had an inkling of what was happening if the images were half that quality when i was watching. I guess when I gotta stream to watch, I take what I can get.

Irish
04-30-2019, 11:12 PM
It is a lot easier for me to imagine how Arya could fool the Freys. That does not require explanation. There is a big difference between Freys and White Walkers.

It isn't about the relative power of the Freys to the White Walkers. Both situations are relatively implausible; why accept one and not the other?

(I'm not trying to be a smart ass. You're not the only person I've heard who was annoyed by this moment. I'm genuinely curious.)

ETA: I mean, I cackle like an idiot when Arya goes into super-ninja mode, because it's fun, and I think it's meant to fun and only that.

Spinal
04-30-2019, 11:14 PM
It isn't about the relative power of the Freys to the White Walkers.

But I just said it was. If you just dismiss my objection, I'm supposed to come up with another?

Irish
04-30-2019, 11:26 PM
But I just said it was. If you just dismiss my objection, I'm supposed to come up with another?

Yes, please do! :D

Your objection doesn't make sense to me.

She's in the Frey's castle, surrounded by at least ~100 people who are hostile to her, somehow manages to commit multiple murders, dismember the bodies of two grown men, stops everything to bake dead bodies into meat pies (somewhere!), faces off against Walder, kills him, fashions an IMF/Ethan Hunt style mask, successfully impersonates Frey, and then poisons everyone else who's still alive. (None of whom, I guess, noticed strange smells wafting from the kitchen or an odd taste to their soup.)

Meanwhile, in this week's episode ... she walked out her parent's door and into her backyard.

Ezee E
05-01-2019, 12:26 AM
Well, the Freys aren't exactly the brightest of families, lol.

DavidSeven
05-01-2019, 12:36 AM
There was so much emotional build up to the Frey scene, not just for Arya but the entire arc of the Starks, that it was easy to give them some leeway there. Also, in the way that the scene was presented on screen, it just never struck me as being as logistically impossible as Arya springing out of nowhere through an army of wights to slay the Night King. Maybe if you broke it down into all the necessary elements, you could make that case, but the task was not as superficially impossible as the task in the Battle of Winterfell.

The "Behind the Scenes" stuff from the last episode reveals some of Benioff and Weiss's thinking on Arya's Han Solo moment. It really seemed to amount to little more than wanting to distract and surprise the audience. ("Here's all your favorite characters in immediate peril! You'll never see ninja Arya coming!") They employed the same shallow storytelling technique with Baelish's execution last season -- devising a completely useless scheme by Arya/Sansa that literally served no other purpose than to surprise the audience. These guys are in 100% fan service mode, and, yeah, that results in some big, dumb fun and meme-worthy moments, but this story used to be about the exact opposite of conforming to genre tropes and relying on tired "big fantasy" moments.

amberlita
05-01-2019, 01:38 AM
There was so much emotional build up to the Frey scene, not just for Arya but the entire arc of the Starks, that it was easy to give them some leeway there. Also, in the way that the scene was presented on screen, it just never struck me as being as logistically impossible as Arya springing out of nowhere through an army of wights to slay the Night King. Maybe if you broke it down into all the necessary elements, you could make that case, but the task was not as superficially impossible as the task in the Battle of Winterfell.

The "Behind the Scenes" stuff from the last episode reveals some of Benioff and Weiss's thinking on Arya's Han Solo moment. It really seemed to amount to little more than wanting to distract and surprise the audience. ("Here's all your favorite characters in immediate peril! You'll never see ninja Arya coming!") They employed the same shallow storytelling technique with Baelish's execution last season -- devising a completely useless scheme by Arya/Sansa that literally served no other purpose than to surprise the audience. These guys are in 100% fan service mode, and, yeah, that results in some big, dumb fun and meme-worthy moments, but this story used to be about the exact opposite of conforming to genre tropes and relying on tired "big fantasy" moments.

I agree with this. They outright say that they wanted everyone to be assuming it would be Jon to kill the night king because "he's always the hero" so they wanted to shock everyone when it was Arya. Don't get me wrong - she's my favorite character and the moment totally worked. But as soon as it was over I was like...."wait, what?"

Not such much about the logistics of her ninja arrival, but the fact that we spent seasons - ever since Hardhome - developing an actual relationship between Jon and the Night King. It felt like a cheap attempt to get one of GoT's water cooler OMG! moments but instead just kind of betrayed a.) the tension they had created between Jon and the Night King for years, and b.) all the talk about Jon and/or Dany being the one to stop the long night.

Even if you don't care about the latter (though you should because Melisandre et al. reference it repeatedly throughout the show; it's not just a book thing), the former still feels wrong in hindsight.

Irish
05-01-2019, 09:28 AM
What's wrong with surprise? Nobody called Arya as the killer before this episode. I think that's fun -- or at least more fun that Captain Emo grimly charging his mortal enemy and swinging a broadsword.

I didn't connect to the larger Stark family (I mean, Robb? Ew) so the Frey scenes came across as almost unbearably cheesy and highly implausible. I think there's a point where you just gotta shrug it off though because the show has repeatedly demonstrated it has no interest in logistics (or even physics, lol).

This is not the first time they've jerked the audience's chain, eg: teasing The Hound's death as a late season cliffhanger and bringing Jon Snow back from the dead using magic.

I liked that it was characters on the periphery to the "game" who got shit done this episode -- mostly Arya and Lyanna, two teenage girls -- and everybody else was left standing around with their weapon in their hand and a stunned expression on their face. That strikes me as pretty damned subversive in itself.

And while I agree that they totally undercut the tension between Jon Snow and the Night King and cast off years of build-up, it's also not the first time the show (or GRRM) has used sudden death as an easy narrative out.

Grouchy
05-01-2019, 03:59 PM
Not such much about the logistics of her ninja arrival, but the fact that we spent seasons - ever since Hardhome - developing an actual relationship between Jon and the Night King. It felt like a cheap attempt to get one of GoT's water cooler OMG! moments but instead just kind of betrayed a.) the tension they had created between Jon and the Night King for years, and b.) all the talk about Jon and/or Dany being the one to stop the long night.
I hadn't thought about it this way but you're absolutely right.

Grouchy
05-01-2019, 04:01 PM
I liked that it was characters on the periphery to the "game" who got shit done this episode -- mostly Arya and Lyanna, two teenage girls -- and everybody else was left standing around with their weapon in their hand and a stunned expression on their face. That strikes me as pretty damned subversive in itself.
While both moments on themselves were wonderfully badass the idea behind this is pretty demagogic.

Spinal
05-01-2019, 04:09 PM
It also bothers me that Arya is that skilled after having both of her main mentoring sessions (Syrio and Faceless Men) cut short. That's not really how training works.

Irish
05-01-2019, 06:10 PM
Quite right.

And might I add, it's a story telling conceit that's just so rare in genre fiction



https://i.imgur.com/tWMT6pb.jpg

;)

Morris Schæffer
05-01-2019, 06:25 PM
Haha Irish

Spinal
05-01-2019, 06:31 PM
It's a problem in Star Wars too. You keep insisting that the series has always been this way. It hasn't. There's been a significant change for the ordinary after Martin's departure.

Spinal
05-01-2019, 06:37 PM
I mean, we can go back and forth, but it all boils down to the fact that most people agree that Game of Thrones achieved its popularity by being a pointed critique of common fantasy conventions, injecting verisimilitude, careful planning and real consequences into the genre. Irish's take is basically, it's the same old cheese. Enjoy it on that level. So there you have it. We can disagree on this point.

Grouchy
05-01-2019, 06:39 PM
There's been a significant change for the ordinary after Martin's departure.
He's probably contractually forced not to pass judgement on any of the show's narrative choices at this point but I'm dying to know how he really felt about the episode. It's so opposed to the philosophy under which he writes fiction.

Spinal
05-01-2019, 06:47 PM
He's probably contractually forced not to pass judgement on any of the show's narrative choices at this point but I'm dying to know how he really felt about the episode. It's so opposed to the philosophy under which he writes fiction.

Well, and he is gracious enough not to bitch about something that's made him hugely wealthy. I honestly think the showrunners are doing their best. They've pushed the limits of TV as far as it can go and it still may not be enough to capture the size of the story. I mean, The Long Night was never intended to be literally one night.

Irish
05-01-2019, 07:33 PM
It's a problem in Star Wars too.

No, it's really not.

I mean, I'm sure there's a dozen podcasts out there that have discussed just what Luke was doing between "Empire" and "Jedi" and there's a buncha nerds on the internet with volumes of theories to explain the discrepancy between Luke's abilities from one movie to another --- but most people just don't care.

Because "Star Wars" isn't "36 Chambers of Shaolin" or whatever; the movies weren't about Luke's training. Nobody who watches them comes away thinking it's any kind of dealbreaker.


You keep insisting that the series has always been this way. It hasn't. There's been a significant change for the ordinary after Martin's departure.

I think there's a noticeable difference in quality. Benioff & Weiss aren't nearly as good at hiding the seams in their stories as Martin is. But's like they're doing the Muzak version of Martin's song --- a different sound but the notes are the same.

Grouchy
05-01-2019, 07:46 PM
I think there's a noticeable difference in quality. Benioff & Weiss aren't nearly as good at hiding the seams in their stories as Martin is. But's like they're doing the Muzak version of Martin's song --- a different sound but the notes are the same.
That's a good metaphor but I don't think it's true. For one thing, Martin always favors character over story. This has not been true in the latter seasons - you pointed out some instances of that yourself, like the entire North forgiving the Kingslayer simply because he's good with a sword and the war is coming, while in the second season they murdered children because they couldn't get their hands on him.

Martin also seems obsessed with the tangents of his story - how one action has unexpected repercussions on characters far away from the main events, like the Dorne storyline that develops from Oberyn's death. B&W are completely uninterested in this type of storytelling. They are more desperate to deliver closure and reward the viewer than Martin ever was.

Irish
05-01-2019, 07:47 PM
I mean, we can go back and forth, but it all boils down to the fact that most people agree that Game of Thrones achieved its popularity by being a pointed critique of common fantasy conventions, injecting verisimilitude, careful planning and real consequences into the genre.

Ya know, I'm posting right here. You can address me directly. You don't need to refer to me in the third person. It's okay. :D

Who are "most people"? I'd think that "most people" wouldn't have been familiar with fantasy conventions one way or the other, outside "Lord of the Rings" and maybe "Conan the Barbarian."

You talk as if Martin invented this stuff. He didn't. In fact, he was a relative late comer to the grimdark trend in fantasy fiction.

And what are "real consequences"? I've seen people on r/asoiaf throw that phrase around as if it's meaningful in some way and unique to Martin, but it's not. "Consequences" are the crux of all drama, or anything that aspires to be drama. Without "consequences," you're watching a network sitcom or an old Saturday morning cartoon.

I agree on the verisimilitude. "Game of Thrones" hesitates to employ usual fantasy tropes, like magical systems or creatures. I think that was smart, because it sidesteps any kneejerk comparisons to "Lord of the Rings" and allows a mass audience to watch without feeling like complete dorks.

DavidSeven
05-01-2019, 08:22 PM
Your frame of reference and expectations are going to be different if you jump into the series in Season 7 and then double back versus watching it in continuity as it airs. If you're watching Season 7 and beyond relatively fresh (meaning you skipped the transition seasons), it makes all the sense in the world you would compare its storytelling favorably to a big fantasy franchise like Star Wars. It's pretty much followed that tone consistently since Season 6. Those who watched the full transition from GRRM's sourced stories to Benioff and Weiss's full control have had a much different, far more jarring experience.

Grouchy
05-01-2019, 08:43 PM
Irish, you started watching with Season 7? What kind of crazed sociopath are you that you would do such a thing?

Spinal
05-01-2019, 09:14 PM
Who are "most people"?

Nearly a decade of TV criticism.



You talk as if Martin invented this stuff. He didn't. In fact, he was a relative late comer to the grimdark trend in fantasy fiction.

You continue to set up arguments for me that I'm not making. There's no question he had a role in popularizing it.


And what are "real consequences"?

Standing up for what you believe in and getting beheaded instead of saving the day. Being a wise-cracking arrogant knight and getting your hand chopped off instead of laughter. Trying to avenge your father's death and getting yourself killed. Honestly, this is where I can't tell if you're being serious or if you're just messing with me. This is kind of basic stuff with regards to this show and story.

Ezee E
05-01-2019, 09:55 PM
By the way, how heartbreaking may it be if a very confident Arya tries to sneak up on Cersei, only to be caught and killed by The Mountain?

Even if that led to Clegane Bowl, it'd be one of the saddest things to happen in the series.

Grouchy
05-01-2019, 10:06 PM
I voted that Arya dies in the game but after last episode I'm not sure they'd dare. I've started to agree with Irish - the TV show is now the chickenshit version of the story.

Dukefrukem
05-01-2019, 10:12 PM
By the way, how heartbreaking may it be if a very confident Arya tries to sneak up on Cersei, only to be caught and killed by The Mountain?

Even if that led to Clegane Bowl, it'd be one of the saddest things to happen in the series.

I'd welcome it.

DavidSeven
05-01-2019, 10:18 PM
In fairness to Benioff and Weiss, I would defend Season 6 (non-GRRM) as one of the best seasons of the entire show. It struck a beautiful balance between good character writing, narrative propulsion, and spectacle. I thought some of the earlier middle seasons were starting to languish, trapped in a GRRM-driven structure that wasn't moving the story forward. That said, these last two seasons are severely lacking in the depth of the writing. They may have shortchanged themselves by not allowing for more episodes, and they also seem better at this when they don't have to confront the hard fantasy elements of the story so directly.

Grouchy
05-01-2019, 10:32 PM
I think the series reached its highest dramatic point with Tyrion's trial and subsequent escape from King's Landing. I watched all that stuff with my jaw on the floor. Seasons 5 and 6 were still filled with great, iconic stuff (Arya's training, Hardhome, the High Sparrow's climb to power, Hodor, the Battle of the Bastards and Baelor exploding) and I only really felt the descent in quality with 7, when everything started to feel rushed, the sense of geography completely disappeared (actually, this started happening with the finale of Season 6, in which Varys says goodbye in Dragonstone and appears in Dorne minutes later), characters were put in situations in which they are clearly dead and then magically reappear and all around everything became predictable. If I think back on Season 7 the only truly great scene it has is Olenna Tyrell's death.

I don't think I'm being too harsh on B&W. They obviously took risks with their show and its genre and adapted a difficult piece of literature in a brilliant way. But the disappearance of the source material was unkind to their writing. By the way, Benioff wrote 25th Hour and the novel it's based on.

Ezee E
05-01-2019, 11:18 PM
I'd welcome it.

Same.

Ezee E
05-01-2019, 11:32 PM
One thing we should all give applause for is Ramin Djawadi's great score for the end of the episode. Great composer.

Irish
05-02-2019, 03:14 AM
You continue to set up arguments for me that I'm not making. There's no question he had a role in popularizing it.

Mmm. More like I'm saying you're giving Martin more credit than he's due.


Standing up for what you believe in and getting beheaded instead of saving the day. Being a wise-cracking arrogant knight and getting your hand chopped off instead of laughter. Trying to avenge your father's death and getting yourself killed. Honestly, this is where I can't tell if you're being serious or if you're just messing with me. This is kind of basic stuff with regards to this show and story.

I wasn't asking for examples; those are obvious.

I was asking: How is "Game of Thrones" different from literally any other serious drama, since "consequences" are a key element to the form?

Peng
05-02-2019, 03:43 AM
FFS. I've posted about the show since is began, in almost every GoT thread on this forum.

You, me, and Spinal had a long back and forth 3 years ago (http://matchcut.artboiled.com/showthread.php?6147-Game-of-Thrones-(Season-6)/page5&p=555427#post555427).

I barely make heads or tails of that conversation because you deleted your posts, although the quoted ones seem to just be about an article you posted?

When we, me included, talk about you jumping in at season 7, we are referring to a post in season 7’s first page that you have since deleted (very recently, because when I went back a few days ago to see if I was remembering it wrong, it was still there). But it was still there in the post Spinal quoted (http://matchcut.artboiled.com/showthread.php?6700-Game-of-Thrones-(Season-7)&p=574059&viewfull=1#post574059).

Dukefrukem
05-02-2019, 01:00 PM
If I were admin, deleting posts would be turned off.

Irish
05-02-2019, 02:32 PM
1123950462653403140
LOL

Ezee E
05-02-2019, 08:39 PM
Finished Book 3 today. The last quarter of the book is chapter upon chapter of good stuff, and works just as well on page as it did on screen.

I wonder how Lady Stoneheart would've played on screen. I always thought that Catelyn Stark scenes on the TV show were pretty weak, with Michelle Fairley being part of the reason. However, with a good makeup job, and a terrifying voice, I think it could've really worked. Obviously it changes things with Beric's fate, and I haven't gotten into Book 4/5 to see how it results, but it makes for a terrific final chapter to Book 4.

Not going to lie though, the TV show executes the key scenes from this book just as well, if not better, than what was there beforehand. This includes the Red Wedding, Mountain Vs. Viper, and the use of The Hound. The book really handles the depression of Sansa, Bran's journey to the North, and Stannis Baratheon's character much better. Both have evenly great ideas for Brienne, Arya, and the handling of the Lannisters. So, as a fan, I really think both mediums are worth delving into.

Grouchy
05-02-2019, 08:50 PM
I always thought that Catelyn Stark scenes on the TV show were pretty weak, with Michelle Fairley being part of the reason. However, with a good makeup job, and a terrifying voice, I think it could've really worked.
Seriously? I think she's one of the greatest actors of the whole ensemble. Frankly the weak links as far as thespians go have always been Jon and Daenerys.

Also, Lady Stoneheart can't speak because of her throat wound. I think Thoros or Beric mention it in the epilogue to Book 3.

Spinal
05-02-2019, 09:14 PM
I was asking: How is "Game of Thrones" different from literally any other serious drama, since "consequences" are a key element to the form?

You're in love with your own sophistry. I'm less enamored.

Spinal
05-02-2019, 09:17 PM
1123950462653403140
LOL

Yeah, that pretty much sums up what's insufferable about the social justice crowd who see everyone else in the world as unenlightened rubes. Everyone else's arguments are rooted in sexism and racism and colonialism but not pure adorable me.

Ezee E
05-02-2019, 09:24 PM
Seriously? I think she's one of the greatest actors of the whole ensemble. Frankly the weak links as far as thespians go have always been Jon and Daenerys.

Also, Lady Stoneheart can't speak because of her throat wound. I think Thoros or Beric mention it in the epilogue to Book 3.

Yeah, I totally get the throat wound as the reason she can't speak. She can speak some words if she holds down her throat, but not much at all. It's terrifying to picture.

Irish
05-02-2019, 10:08 PM
You're in love with your own sophistry. I'm less enamored.

Ha. Well, that's always been true. I gotta tell you, I saw this comic (https://www.gocomics.com/nancy/2019/04/08) the other day and burst out laughing. It hit a little too close to home.

PS: You still haven't answered the question. ;)

Irish
05-02-2019, 10:12 PM
Yeah, that pretty much sums up what's insufferable about the social justice crowd who see everyone else in the world as unenlightened rubes. Everyone else's arguments are rooted in sexism and racism and colonialism but not pure adorable me.

Jesus. With this show, you're like a zealot defending his religion. Or a teenage boy defending his mother's imagined honor.

Get over it, Spinal. Your god is fickle and your mother's a whore.

Grouchy
05-03-2019, 01:01 AM
this comic (https://www.gocomics.com/nancy/2019/04/08)
I never knew that character was called Nancy. It's Periquita in Spanish.

Peng
05-05-2019, 06:47 PM
So it seems some (all?) of Ep 4 leaks, which seemingly confirm a lot of the leaked plot points (which I only knew just existed) earlier. Haven't seen or read anything from them yet, but based on reactions it seems to be... controversial. And if the rest is true, here's a comment:


lol, Lindelof can finally rest, Lost won't have the biggest clusterfuck of an ending anymore. Also, if the leaks are indeed true, the backlash to The Last Jedi will feel like a nice afternoon tea party compared to what's about to go down with the GoT fandom.

Honestly I am more curious about that than the actual plot now lol.

Spinal
05-05-2019, 08:41 PM
Jesus. With this show, you're like a zealot defending his religion. Or a teenage boy defending his mother's imagined honor.

I've offered numerous critiques of this show. I've also offered numerous critiques of my mother, but I don't post those on the internet.

Scar
05-06-2019, 12:16 AM
So it seems some (all?) of Ep 4 leaks, which seemingly confirm a lot of the leaked plot points (which I only knew just existed) earlier. Haven't seen or read anything from them yet, but based on reactions it seems to be... controversial. And if the rest is true, here's a comment:



Honestly I am more curious about that than the actual plot now lol.

Doing everything in my power to avoid searching for these spoilers.

Dukefrukem
05-06-2019, 02:22 AM
BTW, super huge plot hole with the dragon killing crossbows. Here's a war tip guys- fly the dragons towards the back of the ships.

That's Dany. When she gets angry she's not really rational though is she? I dunno, it's not like your point is invalid. It's just that everyone complains about battlefield strategies when we're assuming everyone's supposed to have it all figured out. That'd be like a soccer coach never making the wrong decision.

Scar
05-06-2019, 02:56 AM
I love the twitter response about Brienne hooking up with a Fuck boy instead of the guy who really cares about her.

Grouchy
05-06-2019, 03:50 AM
Kind of... a romantic episode? It's shaping up like Daenerys is going to be almost an antagonist by the end.

Though she was absolutely right not to tell Sansa. Never tell Sansa.

Ezee E
05-06-2019, 04:18 AM
Next week's death count is going to be bigger (and more integral) than last week's it appears.

Peng
05-06-2019, 04:45 AM
ofc it has to be that hot topic pirate lol. And Brienne and Missandei were done so dirty this ep.

Basically agree with these:

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Peng
05-06-2019, 07:11 AM
Somehow I knew Dany would be the type to sip Starbucks while growing paranoid and gone mad...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D53a-MXU8AEW_Rd.jpg

Peng
05-06-2019, 07:22 AM
Saw this pointed out on another forum: Benioff and Weiss literally said that the reason why Daenerys fell into Euron's trap was because she forgot that Euron and the Iron Fleet exist (https://youtu.be/u8K9XuPrXko?t=350). Which sure...

Grouchy
05-06-2019, 01:52 PM
Whoever that guy is on Twitter is absolutely right - the second half of the episode basically defines rushed storytelling.

Spinal
05-06-2019, 02:16 PM
Jon asks Tormund to dogsit Ghost? Cersei has Tyrion dead to rights and lets him talk about her children?

This show is so stupid now I just want it to be over to spare me the weekly disappointments.

Peng
05-06-2019, 02:22 PM
Jon giving away Ghost is indeed hilarious. As a plot point it can work, but the way it happens on the show, all I can think of is "What? Now they can't even spare the budget for a scene of Jon hugging Ghost goodbye or something?". It is so casually done!

Grouchy
05-06-2019, 02:39 PM
Yeah, to be honest, I've given up hope of the show ever getting good again. It's basically fan fiction now.

dreamdead
05-06-2019, 03:14 PM
There's still moments of intrigue, as the actual discussion between Tyrion and Varys was interesting--but the instigating idea of telling everyone is a bit too much too quick.

The part that infuriated me was Brienne ugly crying--such a break of her character.