Ant-Man and the Wasp (Peyton Reed)

[Peng]

https://trendsinternational.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e 95/1/5/15243-ant-man-and-the-wasp---duo---4x6.jpg

[Peng]

Some of the praises for the original Ant-Man are something I appreciate more in concept (low-key stakes, no world-ending explosion, pleasant heist comedy tone) than in actual execution (in which the transition in switching directors seemingly leads to inert, bland first two acts of set-ups). So I'm happy to see then that those praises apply more fully to this zippy sequel. There are still some problems that feel inherent to these films for now: Peyton Reed remain occasionally like a weird fit in style and tone for superhero film, and in an MCU full of distinct heroes, Scott Lang still makes for a barely-registered headliner, especially now that we see how he's so much better as colorful side-kick in Civil War (even that problem is alleviated to some degree though by this sequel having Hope being a full partner). Otherwise this is a clear step-up all the way. It's livelier and better thought-out; the jokes breeze along, storylines flow in and out of each other more organically, and especially, the eye-popping action never go numb in the way that even many better MCU films do in the end stretch. The ability to grow and shrink is utilized in a much more frequent, creative, and joyous way than the first, so the fight scenes become an ever-changing platform for fast-thinking, often hilarious problem-solving action. This is far from the best MCU superhero or film for me, but it is probably the MCU film that explores and thinks through its superhero's power best. 7/10

Stray thoughts
- I thought de-aged Michael Douglas in the first Ant-Man still looked creepy, but they really almost perfect the effect here. He and especially de-aged Michelle Pfeiffer look amazing.
- Michael Pena has an even more show-stopping monologue, which comes at the best time possible in the film; there are loud applause and cheers in my theater when he starts.
- The "science" gets so much more ludricous (thankfully some of it is not entirely self-serious). There's a big scene though that might be too far out for me, except it involves Pfeiffer and her presence is such that I instantly wave it away with "of course she can do that".

[Dukefrukem]

The humor is really a step up from the first movie which makes the pacing and the brisk hour and fifty two minute run time fly by. I LOVE this as a chase movie, which I'm not sure is just a product of the script or was how it was planned from the beginning. The Ghost villain motives, is weak and flimsy, as is the "plan" with Ghost; almost like Marvel was falling back into their trap of bad villain writing, whilst coming off four straight superior showings. But because it's a chase movie, it opens up a love triangle between Walton Goggins, Ghost and the main characters with a fun romp involving a lot of give and take. Michael Peña has some excellent scenes and gets most of the laughs, as does a cute scene with Paul Rudd inside an elementary school.

[transmogrifier]

62/100

Ant-Man continues to have the only action scenes worth a damn in the MCU. Humor is mostly forced this time out, except for during the action scenes, but fun, breezy Marvel is leagues more compelling than overstuffed, self-serious Marvel.

[TGM]

Here's a question unrelated to any post in this thread. But why has it become acceptable to just casually spoil Marvel movies right away? People are still super hushed when it comes to Star Wars spoilers the first few weeks, even when they don't like the movies. But with Marvel, on social media at least, it's like there's a race to see who can spoil the whole movie first. Didn't catch it opening night? Too bad, fuck you!

I first noticed this with Infinity War, and it really started with those "spoilers without context" memes, which eventually just lead to straight up spoilers, because who cares. But now with this movie, half my damn feed is just casual spoilers already, without even any warning or anything. What the hell is up with that? :\

[transmogrifier]

My theory: because it really doesn’t matter. It’s all junk food; delicious going down, empty calories.

[Ezee E]

Outside of Infinity War, is there really anything to spoil in the MCU anyway? I felt like people were pretty good about it otherwise outside of saying that there were some twists.

[Dukefrukem]

Outside of Infinity War, is there really anything to spoil in the MCU anyway? I felt like people were pretty good about it otherwise outside of saying that there were some twists.

There's plenty for fans, whether they matter or not is up for debate.

Here's a list of eight that don't involve Ant-man and the Wasp:

1. Mandarin Reveal in Iron Man 3
2. Quicksilver Death in Age of Ultron
3. Adam Warlock Reveal in GotG2
4. Peter Quill isn't human reveal in GotG
5. "MJ" reveal in Spider-man Homecoming
6. All of the characters involved in the fight in Civil War was hidden
7. Red Skull reveal in Infinity War
8. Giant Man reveal in Civil War

[TGM]

My theory: because it really doesn’t matter. It’s all junk food; delicious going down, empty calories.

People were showing more hesitancy about spoiling the latest Jurassic World than they are with these movies though.

[Ezee E]

But yeah, I'm not sure what it is about Star Wars, but those secrets are pretty well kept, even weeks later.

[Irish]

But why has it become acceptable to just casually spoil Marvel movies right away?

I hadn't thought of it before, but you're on to something there. I have certain keywords ("Marvel," "Disney," "Star Wars") filtered out of my feeds and I still heard a big "Infinity War" spoiler.

Which is weird because I don't follow the sorta movie blogs or whatevers that would generally spoil that stuff.

Never heard a peep about major events in a "Star Wars" movie, though. It seems weird.

[Henry Gale]

As reductive and unambitious as it might make it sound, I think this movie is just pure, unfiltered fun done exactly right. If it wasn't an MCU movie, it'd be kind of crazy to think something as contently light and low stakes would have the sort of budget it does, or the opening weekend it will.

And the fact that some of its most exhilarating moments come out of such simple, low-fi comedic ideas cleverly using its sci-fi hero mechanics to mine completely in-camera, FX-less thrills makes the whole thing even more remarkable. One major one is obviously the aforementioned Peña bit in the middle, but the other one that sticks out in my mind, entirely successful due to Rudd's performance, is when Pfeiffer's character taking over his body, and she's "reunited" with Hank and Hope. It's so beautifully simple and brilliantly thrown at us out of nowhere, and it thrives completely due to the breathable playground the film has created for a performer like Rudd to be entirely able to thrive in (and because he did a draft of the script, it's entirely possible he conceived of that bit himself).

And otherwise, as a movie of a bigger universe, it gets us to know these characters and some of the bigger fantastical quantum stuff likely necessary for the next time we see them and cross paths with other major players. But in the end, the film really is just about a bunch of people running around trying to track down a suitcase-sized shrinkable building in order to save different people's lives, and every stretch of it is a perfectly breezy blast. Also, the fact that Walton Goggins is maybe the only real "bad guy" and he's still very goofy and slapstick-y when the movie needs him to be, shows that the movie doesn't need standard antagonism to create gripping conflict and tangible stakes. Randall Park also being there to provide tension, when really he's given as much comedy as anyone else. I don't meant this as a knock, but it's the MCU movie that feels the most like a kids movie, and I imagine for every older audience that shrugs at it, there are way younger audiences who will love it as much as anything the studio has put out.

It's just a goofy good time of a '90s action caper done on a modern blockbuster tentpole scale. As minor as it is when looking at it next to the rest of Marvel Studios fare, it still completely does the job it sets out to. The ongoing issue for me in ranking MCU films is that they've begun to truly explore their own genre-riffing and tonal goals, making them harder to bother to compare to one another. And with that, in my mind, I imagine Ant-Man and The Wasp falls smack dab in the middle of them all. Because even if it's the exact average of quality out of the 20(!) films they've produced, it doesn't feel like their average output. It's sideways growth, but growth nonetheless.

[TGM]

Alright, so now that I've seen it myself, I've gotta say, I never expected for the latest Ant-Man movie to be the best MCU film of the year, yet here we are. This is a radical improvement over the first, which I was not a fan of at all. And I honestly think that likely has a lot to do with the fact that they were able to build this movie fresh from the ground up, whereas the first had all those issues with Edgar Wright backing off, and the new director not quite being able to ape his style, which made the movie come across as a cheap knock-off version of a Wright film. No such issues here, though. I thought this was a blast from start to finish. Wildly fun action scenes, genuinely hilarious throughout, and even heart warming when it needs to be. This movie was fantastic.

[Skitch]

See, now your making me nervous because I quite like the first one.

[TGM]

Guardians of the Galaxy
Captain America: Civil War
Iron Man 3
The Avengers
Captain America: The First Avenger
Ant-Man and The Wasp
Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2
Thor: The Dark World
Iron Man
Thor
Avengers: Infinity War
Black Panther
The Incredible Hulk
Thor: Ragnarok
Doctor Strange
Avengers: Age of Ultron
Captain America: The Winter Soldier
Spider-Man: Homecoming
Ant-Man
Iron Man 2

At this point, really only the top 4 and bottom 3 are secured in their spots. I can see just about everything else moving up or down depending on how I feel that particular day. And well, I suppose this ranking is how I'm presently feeling today. :p

[Dukefrukem]

You're definitely in the minority with those bottom 4 "secured".

What do you find particularly good about Thor: The Dark World and Incredible Hulk to not have them in the bottom 4?

[Dukefrukem]

Here's my rankings.

1.The Avengers - Dialog and character interactions are as close to perfect as you will ever get. The template is made.
2.Captain America: The Winter Soldier - Excellent espionage plot taking Steve Rogers into the 21st century.
3.Avengers: Age of Ultron - Charters and dialog remain tightly woven as action and stakes get a larger stage.
4.Avengers: Infinity War - Heroes meeting each other for the first time with probably the best villain arc we've seen in the MCU to date.
5.Thor: Ragnarok - The funniest MCU movie with an excellent homage to comics.
6.Ant-Man and the Wasp - TBD
7.Spider-Man: Homecoming - A movie that is less about superheros and more about high school.
8.Captain America: Civil War - Excellent action choreography with an impressive diverse large scale fight scene.
9.Guardians of the Galaxy - Well rounded by blending humor with a brand new world and characters.
10.Iron Man - Start to finish entertaining, witty and satisfaction. A movie star is born.
11.Captain America: The First Avenger - Excellent origin story that gets overshadowed by a very underwhelming climax and finale.
12.Black Panther - Excellent performances from two great villains. Motivations are questionable.
13.Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 Carbon Copy of the first movie, with more of Quill's backstory.
14.Iron Man 3 - An Iron Man movie with very little Iron Man. Shank Black does Shane Black things.
15.Thor - Slow moving, but Branagh introduces new characters and new world well.
16.Ant-Man - A fine stand alone film with smaller stakes and mildly intimidating villain.
17.Doctor Strange - Essentially the same origin story as Tony Stark.
18.Iron Man 2 - Though the script and villain are terrible, RDJ carries this film on his back making it mildly entertaining.
19.Thor: The Dark World - Bad villain, with bad villain plot with no stakes.
20.The Incredible Hulk - Hulk comes in last due to the entire film being played completely straight. There is not a lick of humor. Roth brings a fine performance.

[TGM]

You're definitely in the minority with those bottom 4 "secured".

What do you find particularly good about Thor: The Dark World and Incredible Hulk to not have them in the bottom 4?

The Incredible Hulk I don't love or anything, but I also don't really have any major issues with it either. It's basically at the bottom of the mid-tier, just before we get to the films I found most problematic to me personally.

The Dark World I've always been a fan of, though. Thought it was a great improvement on the first, which I always felt was more half a really good movie (the fish out of water stuff on Earth), half a kinda bland and shitty movie (everything on Asgard). But I found the quality to be far more consistent in The Dark World. It also provided a lot of satisfying moments with Loki, who I had become quite a fan of coming right off of The Avengers, and I dug the shit out of the last action scene with all of the portal stuff going on. I appreciated its creativity in that regard, giving us something we, up to that point in time at least, hadn't really seen on the big screen quite like that.

[Henry Gale]

At this point should we just make a separate MCU Ranking thread in the General Film forum? (Assuming something like that hasn't already been done.)

I know I'm guilty of contributing to this too, but I just feel like with every new release, these threads inevitably become a compare-and-contrast session of where an array of twenty movies fall to everyone's different tastes (and honestly, unless everyone's revisiting them, more to everyone's best recollection and lasting impressions) instead of actually having a discussion about the movie at hand.

Like, it'd be crazy to be talking about something like The Incredible Hulk ten years later in the thread of such a wildly different, more interesting, and livelier movie like this if they weren't associated with the same sprawling series. (Also, The Incredible Hulk is last place. Hands down.)

[Skitch]

Sounds good to me.

[TGM]

I mean, I don't mind the brief comparison tangents that arise in these threads. They're always arise organically in response to the movie at present, meaning they're relevant to the thread at hand, and they almost never actually overtake the thread or anything. Besides, even when we're not posting our rankings, comparisons to prior movies almost always get brought up in people's initial rundowns anyways. They're just a brief little side-note until more people see the movie and discussion on this particular film can resume. *shrug*

[Dukefrukem]

I dont mind a stand alone thread or in the subsequent releases.

[Wryan]

This was good. I actually think the first movie worked better in the action and antagonist departments, but I appreciated that there was no end-of-the-world/domination villainy--just actions by desperate people and mostly tied to well-played characters (re: Janet). Loved Pfeiffer, small part tho she may have had. She wrings out just the right stuff so effortlessly. Really liked how the two families actually supported and liked each other rather than did the usual dick stepdad/mom pissed at ex-husband thing. Very nice to see that. The midcredit scene actually shocked me, lulling me in to a false sense of security with a lighthearted Marvel movie and then bringing me back to a reality I had temporarily forgotten. Was surprised at how effective the emotional moments were. Overall feels like a bit of a downshift into a lower gear compared to first, but a fun time.

[Milky Joe]

I didn't have as much fun with this as I did with the first, but it was still a good time. Just felt kind of do-overy. Not as inventive with the shrinking stuff, and most of the highspots were revealed in the trailer unfortunately. I might have liked it more in 3D and on a bigger screen.

[DavidSeven]

I watched this a day after watching Ant-Man (2015) for the first time. The sequel is better, I guess. The comedy is more polished, and the action scenes at least register this time. It was entertaining but completely forgettable. These two movies are just so insubstantial. I get that people are tired of city destruction and mass alien invasions, but I'm not sure that sentiment makes this a better film in a vacuum. I might buy it if this was packaged as a fun caper with with superhero elements, but that's not what this is. It's straight up post-Raimi superhero formula, utilizing yet another villain with a "you killed/ruined my father!" story.

Michael Pena's character is the best thing in this film and this series, but he's a total crutch and exists solely to distract us from the fact that nothing else interesting is really happening.

[Dukefrukem]

So this may not make the domestic total of the first movie. Very odd considering the opening.

[Mal]

So this may not make the domestic total of the first movie. Very odd considering the opening.

Not the case!

also this was a pretty solid action-comedy. I like everyone in this movie, even the bad guys- I think that helps a lot especially since I hated the actions and behaviors of almost everyone in Infinity War, which left me upset because it just made everyone stupid. This improved on the original in the right ways- a good balance of giving everyone in the cast their due (except Pfeiffer, wanted more of her) and I buy the chemistry of the leads all the way. Good time, good film

[Dukefrukem]

1026067216360501248

[Irish]

Totally inconsequential but so warmhearted I couldn't help but like it. Even the bad guys in this movie aren't really bad.

Still suffers from the same problem as the original in that the "lead" character spends most of his time tagging along on other people's adventures. The multiple flashbacks don't help the movie's center, either. (Neither does the title "Ant Man and The Wasp," which could legitimately refer to two sets of different characters).

I wish the humor was a little looser and the movie a little more fun. They need someone with Taika Waititi's sensibility. Reed is too constrained and the hard demands of the formula takes up too much space; the movie has no room to breathe. For something that wants to goofy, it needs to fuckin' relax.

[Grouchy]

(Neither does the title "Ant Man and The Wasp," which could legitimately refer to two sets of different characters).
I actually liked this a lot, since it opens the door for possible flashback adventures and the de-aging CGI has finally caught up with that sort of idea.

A slight film but a highly enjoyable one - I agree that Reed has let loose with the possibilities of size-changing powers in a way he hadn't in the first film. The action sequences are significantly better and so is the comedic timing. Beckinsale is a horrible actress, though, and she stands out like a sore thumb amidst this cast.

[Dukefrukem]

I actually liked this a lot, since it opens the door for possible flashback adventures and the de-aging CGI has finally caught up with that sort of idea.

A slight film but a highly enjoyable one - I agree that Reed has let loose with the possibilities of size-changing powers in a way he hadn't in the first film. The action sequences are significantly better and so is the comedic timing. Beckinsale is a horrible actress, though, and she stands out like a sore thumb amidst this cast.

Quoted. Beckinsale??

[Grouchy]

Eh, sorry, I meant Lily. The one from Lost.

[TGM]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2FL6gwchco