Match Cut Director Consensus - Tsui Hark

[Raiders]

Why does nobody remind me about this stuff? By now everyone should realize I'm uber-forgetful.

Anyway...

Rules and Results (http://www.match-cut.org/showthread.php?t=426)

Week Eight: Tsui Hark

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/images/ezine/0620_TsuiHark.jpg

Note - Only count films that imdb lists Tsui Hark as the director. I realize, as Davis would argue, he has a lot of influence as a producer, but then again so do guys like O'Selznick and Bruckheimer. This is a director consensus, and we should stick to the films we know he directed and is credited as such.

[Raiders]

Peking Opera Blues (1986) 7.5
The Blade (1995) 9.0

Next I really want to see We're Going to Eat You. Doesn't look like much of a signature film from him, but it does look wickedly entertaining.

[D_Davis]

The IMDB listing does include some of his co-directing credits (The Swordsman, I Love Maria, The Raid, The Big Heat, King of Chess, New Dragon Inn) but not all, but it's all good. Still plenty of awesome films.

The only films that I would argue we include beyond the IMDB listing are: The Swordsman 2, The East is Red, and A Chinese Ghost Story 1 and 2, but if we don't it's no big deal. Not just because of his influence as a producer, but because he is considered to have co-directed these.

/ my 2 cents

[D_Davis]

Next I really want to see We're Going to Eat You. Doesn't look like much of a signature film from him...

It is. As one of his first 3 films, it is often considered an important HK new wave film and demonstrates his skill as an action director and as a director who injects political allegory into his populist cinema.

It's a fantastic piece of work.

[Melville]

Once Upon a Time in China - 6
Seven Swords - 2.5

[Rowland]

Once Upon a Time in China - 8
Once Upon a Time in China II - 6.5
Once Upon a Time in China III - 6
Green Snake - 8
Double Team - 4
Knock Off - 4
Time and Tide - 6

[Sven]

Twin Dragons - 9 - he did Twin Dragons?! This is, like, my favorite Chan flick. One of them, anyway.
Knock Off - 3
Double Team - 4, though I really shouldn't count this because I saw it when it first came out I think
Time and Tide - 3

It feels like I've seen more. Haven't I seen more? I could've sworn I'd seen more.

[D_Davis]

Twin Dragons - 9 - he did Twin Dragons?! This is, like, my favorite Chan flick. One of them, anyway.


co-directed with Ringo Lam.

[monolith94]

Once Upon A Time in China - 9.0

[Bosco B Thug]

We're Going to Eat You - ummm... 7

[soitgoes...]

Once Upon a Time in China (1991) - 7.0
Once Upon a Time in China II (1992) - 7.0

[Boner M]

The Blade - 7.5

Might be higher when I watch it in a better format.

[D_Davis]

The Blade - 7.5

Might be higher when I watch it in a better format.

The newest bootleg from hkflix is really good, and it's only $10. Probably the best version we'll ever see of the film on DVD, as there are no known plans for a proper remaster. This version has a nice looking, anamorphic transfer, w/ removable English subs.

[Qrazy]

Peking Opera Blues - 7

[Yxklyx]

Once Upon a Time in China - 8

[EyesWideOpen]

The Legend of Zu (Zu Warriors) 5

I've seen about 4 or 5 other of his movies but it's been far too long to rate them.

[D_Davis]

Butterfly Murders - 7
We're Going to Eat You - 10
Dangerous Encounters: 1st Kind - 7.5
Zu: Warriors of the Magic Mountain - 9
Aces Go Places III: Our Man From Bond Street - 6
Working Class - 1
Peking Opera Blues - 10
I Love Maria - 6
The Big Heat - 6
A Better Tomorrow III - 5
The Swordsman - 8
The Raid - 7
A Chinese Ghost Story III - 6
Once Upon a Time in China - 10
New Dragon Inn - 7
Twin Dragons - 7
Once Upon a Time in China II - 8.5
Once Upon a Time in China III - 7.5
Green Snake - 8
The Lovers - 8
Once Upon a Time in China V - 5
A Chinese Feast - 7
Love in the Time of Twilight - 7
The Blade - 10
Double Team - 2
Knock Off - 5
Time and Tide - 7
The Legend of Zu - 6
Black Mask 2: City of Masks - 4
Seven Swords - 7.5
The Warrior (animated) - 2
Triangle - 7


The IMDB listing is really bizarre in what it separates as directed by and produced (co-directed) by. It lists The Big Heat and I Love Maria, but not A Chinese Ghost Story 1 and 2 or The Swordsman 2 and 3. Strange. But, I think I followed it, if not just let me know.

I should have a few more within a week as well:

Shanghai Blues
Tri-Star
All the Wrong Clues


I guess if anyone is interested, here are my ratings for the produced/co-directed by, not to be included in the consensus:


A Better Tomorrow - 7.5
A Chinese Ghost Story - 10
A Better Tomorrow 2 - 5
The Killer - 10
A Chinese Ghost Story II - 8.5
The Wicked City - 5
The Swordsman 2 - 7.5
The East is Red - 8.5
The Magic Crane - 7.5
Iron Monkey - 8.5
A Chinese Ghost Story: The Tsui Hark Animation - 7 (I know this was directed mostly by Tsui)
Burning Paradise - 7.5
Master Q 2001 - 3

[Stay Puft]

Just nabbed a widescreen copy of Knock Off from the interweb (Swedish hard subs, but whatever, they're not actually on the picture itself), so I'll watch that before posting my list.

[Rowland]

Just nabbed a widescreen copy of Knock Off from the interweb (Swedish hard subs, but whatever, they're not actually on the picture itself), so I'll watch that before posting my list.Damn, where the hell would you find that?

[balmakboor]

The newest bootleg from hkflix is really good, and it's only $10. Probably the best version we'll ever see of the film on DVD, as there are no known plans for a proper remaster. This version has a nice looking, anamorphic transfer, w/ removable English subs.

Is that what they currently list as US Version 3?

http://www.hkflix.com/xq/asp/filmID.539922/qx/details.htm

[D_Davis]

Is that what they currently list as US Version 3?

http://www.hkflix.com/xq/asp/filmID.539922/qx/details.htm

Yes.

[balmakboor]

Yes.

Cool. I'll be ordering it. Probably not seeing it soon though. It appears to be backordered.

Completely unrelated: I watched A Touch of Zen for the first time last night. It gets a pretty big WOW from me. I didn't realize it was actually two movies.

[Watashi]

Green Snake - 6

[BirdsAteMyFace]

Double Team - 3

[Morris Schæffer]

Double Team - 1.5
Time and Tide - 2.5

[Kurosawa Fan]

Time and Tide - 7.0

[balmakboor]

We're Going to Eat You - 8
Dangerous Encounters: 1st Kind - 7

That's it so far. Both were quite good though.

[Rowland]

Tsui might have our worst average yet, all thanks to JCVD.

[D_Davis]

We're Going to Eat You - 8
Dangerous Encounters: 1st Kind - 7

That's it so far. Both were quite good though.

Good stuff. Awhile ago, we were talking about nihilistic cinema, and some HK film scholars claim that Dangerous Encounters is one of the most nihilistic films ever made. I tend to agree. It's also incredibly well shot, and contains some amazing set pieces.


Tsui might have our worst average yet, all thanks to JCVD.

:lol:

Oh well. They don't know what else they're missing. I can't believe this many people have actually seen the JCVD movies. These are the only two JCVD I've seen all the way through, and I only watched them because Tsui Hark is my favorite filmmaker...

What's the rest of yall's excuses?

;)

[Morris Schæffer]

What's the rest of yall's excuses?

;)

I'm Belgian so I feel an intense sense of pride when muscles from Brussels does his thing. :)

[Stay Puft]

We're Going to Eat You - 7.5
Shanghai Blues - 10
Peking Opera Blues - 10
A Better Tomorrow III - 3.5
Once Upon a Time in China - 10
The Twin Dragons - 8
Once Upon a Time in China II - 10
Once Upon a Time in China III - 7.5
Green Snake - 10
The Blade - 8
Knock Off - 7
Time and Tide - 8
Seven Swords - 7

I won't bother rating Black Mask 2 since I never bothered finishing it.

For produced/co-directed:

A Better Tomorrow - 7
A Better Tomorrow II - 5.5
The Killer - 8
Iron Monkey - 8
A Chinese Ghost Story: The Tsui Hark Animation - 6

[D_Davis]

Nice!

Wow - you really like Green Snake a lot.

That's awesome. It really is a unique film. It's one of those films that is purely Hong Kong, and could only come from such a place with such a film industry.

A lot of Tsui's films are like this.

Just this morning, while rewatching The East is Red, I thought about how Tsui Hark has helped to define and create so many of the qualities, both good and bad, that we associate with modern Hong Kong filmmaking. It has been said before, but Tsui Hark really and truly represents the essence of this nation's cinema, perhaps stonger, or at least as strong, as any filmmaking who has ever lived from any country. I think we are very fortunate to be alive during his career.

[Rowland]

Knock Off - 7So do you think it's a genuinely good movie, or is your admiration geared more towards its qualities as gonzo cinema?

[D_Davis]

I also can't think of another single filmmaker who has given me one of my favorite fantasies (Zu Warriors), one of my favorite action-horror-comedies (We're Going to Eat You), two of my favorite martial arts flicks (Once Upon a Time in China and The Blade), one of my favorite romances (The Lovers), along with so many other awesome films from such a wide variety of genres and styles.

[Stay Puft]

That's awesome. It really is a unique film. It's one of those films that is purely Hong Kong, and could only come from such a place with such a film industry.

And I just noticed it was based on a Lillian Lee novel. She also wrote the screenplay, much as she did for Chen Kaige's Farewell My Concubine, another easy 10 from me. Unexpected but interesting connection. I think I'll have to check out some of her writing this summer.


It has been said before, but Tsui Hark really and truly represents the essence of this nation's cinema, perhaps stonger, or at least as strong, as any filmmaking who has ever lived from any country. I think we are very fortunate to be alive during his career.

That's an interesting point! He's certainly one of the most exciting filmmakers working today. As you said, his breadth of work alone is remarkable.


So do you think it's a genuinely good movie, or is your admiration geared more towards its qualities as gonzo cinema?

Genuinely good piece of gonzo cinema. It is a ridiculously silly and entertaining movie. The extreme close-ups of the running shoes, the camera flying into the shoe(!), following a bullet through grocery store goods, the camera flying in and out of gun barrels, the slow motion shot of Rob Schneider getting cut with a blade, Rob Schneider ducking around the camera, the fast zoom-out when the police guy yells "Shit!" and so on. I might as well be listing every second shot.

The action is handled with a light but sophisticated touch. Not surprising that Sammo Hung was involved. The action is well shot, matching movements with creative angles and creating a strong sense of kineticism (I love the fight on the top of the truck, for example, when the guy is impaled on bamboo, and the camera flies top down towards his wound). A great example of emphasis (including some awesome slow motion) that is every bit as comedic in its details as it is explosive.

Frankly some people are missing the boat on this one. Which is to say I might be missing the boat on this one. But I'm okay with that.

[Rowland]

Genuinely good piece of gonzo cinema. It is a ridiculously silly and entertaining movie. The extreme close-ups of the running shoes, the camera flying into the shoe(!), following a bullet through grocery store goods, the camera flying in and out of gun barrels, the slow motion shot of Rob Schneider getting cut with a blade, Rob Schneider ducking around the camera, the fast zoom-out when the police guy yells "Shit!" and so on. I might as well be listing every second shot.

The action is handled with a light but sophisticated touch. Not surprising that Sammo Hung was involved. The action is well shot, matching movements with creative angles and creating a strong sense of kineticism (I love the fight on the top of the truck, for example, when the guy is impaled on bamboo, and the camera flies top down towards his wound). A great example of emphasis (including some awesome slow motion) that is every bit as comedic in its details as it is explosive.

Frankly some people are missing the boat on this one. Which is to say I might be missing the boat on this one. But I'm okay with that.
Yeah, I've cited many of those same moments myself. I'm reminded of a Michael Sicinski quote (regarding Casino Royale in its original context): "This film is so formally unhinged, you'd really just need to throw in some dance numbers and it's practically its own Bollywood remake."

I love this commercial (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTuI5gEYlQo) for the movie.

[Stay Puft]

I love this commercial (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTuI5gEYlQo) for the movie.

Holy shit! That's every bit as awesome as the movie itself. :lol:

[D_Davis]

Tsui has said before that everything in and about Knock Off is 100% intentional. He swears he was being subversive with genre conventions and making fun of how insane and asinine modern action cinema had become. I think it also plays upon some of the fears of the 97 handover, one of the most historic events of Hong Kong history.

Tsui Hark fled HK, afraid that the Chinese government would completely censor him and stop him from making films. Very few of his films have ever played, uncut, or at all, on the mainland due to their subversive political nature. So it is interesting that one of his only western films is actually set in Hong Kong.

My 5/10 rating for Knock Off is really saying this:

I think 1/2 of it is balls out awesome, while 1/2 of it totally sucks beyond belief.

The film is a great example of Tsui's unhinged aesthetic style.

What's more interesting is the theme of rebirth in Time and Tide, his return to Hong Kong. This is something that I think a lot of viewers overlook. Tsui Hark doesn't just make action or genre films, but he infuses his films with strong political and social messages.

[D_Davis]

I bet if Knock Off were exactly the same but directed by Takashi Miike, more people would talking about how brilliant and satirical and ironic it is.

[Sven]

I bet if Knock Off were exactly the same but directed by Takashi Miike, more people would talking about how brilliant and satirical and ironic it is.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

So repped.

[D_Davis]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

So repped.

Am I wrong?

:lol:

[D_Davis]

I've seen some people go as far and say that Tsui was actually making fun of JCVD in the film, but that JCVD was too self-centered and clueless to catch on. I don't agree with this, but I wouldn't past Tsui. I mean, he's practically kicked King Hu, Johhny To, and John Woo off of projects, I wouldn't put it past him to make fun of JCVD.

[Sven]

Am I wrong?

It was the enormity of your truth that tickled me.

[balmakboor]

Good stuff. Awhile ago, we were talking about nihilistic cinema, and some HK film scholars claim that Dangerous Encounters is one of the most nihilistic films ever made. I tend to agree. It's also incredibly well shot, and contains some amazing set pieces.

I just pulled this off the shelf and gave it another watch. I couldn't agree more with what you said. It is extremely well shot, almost Hitchcockian in its way of conveying violence and action obliquely through framing and montage. The DVD I have (Don't Play With Fire) looks great. I only wish it was subtitled instead of that weird dub. (Although the dubbing is starting to grow on me in an unintentionally funny sort of way.)

[Ezee E]

Once Upon a time iN China - 6

[Ezee E]

I pushed the deadline to the 12th for ya Raiders.

[balmakboor]

I've seen a couple more and plan to get to Green Snake this week. My ratings are now:

We're Going to Eat You - 8
Dangerous Encounters: 1st Kind - 9 (adjusted)
Once Upon a Time in China - 8
The Blade - 10

[Stay Puft]

Post any more ratings if you have 'em.

I'll tabulate this tomorrow.

[Stay Puft]

RESULTS:
1. The Blade - 8.9 (5)
2. Peking Opera Blues - 8.4 (5)
3. We're Going to Eat You - 8.13 (4)
4. Green Snake - 8 (4)
5. Once Upon a Time in China - 8 (9)
6. Once Upon a Time in China II - 8 (4)
7. Time and Tide - 5.58 (6)
8. Knock Off - 4.75 (4)
9. Double Team - 2.9 (5)

DID NOT QUALIFY:
Shanghai Blues - 10 (1)
Zu: Warriors from the Magic Mountain - 9 (1)
Dangerous Encounters: 1st Kind - 8.25 (2)
The Lovers - 8 (1)
Swordsman - 8 (1)
The Twin Dragons - 8 (3)
The Butterfly Murders - 7 (1)
The Chinese Feast - 7 (1)
Love in the Time of Twilight - 7 (1)
New Dragon Inn - 7 (1)
Once Upon a Time in China III - 7 (3)
The Raid - 7 (1)
Triangle - 7 (1)
Aces Go Places III: Our Man from Bond Street - 6 (1)
The Big Heat - 6 (1)
A Chinese Ghost Story III - 6 (1)
I Love Maria - 6 (1)
Seven Swords - 5.67 (3)
The Legend of Zu - 5.5 (2)
Once Upon a Time in China V - 5 (1)
A Better Tomorrow III: Love and Death in Saigon - 4.25 (2)
Black Mask 2: City of Masks - 4 (1)
The Warrior - 2 (1)
Working Class - 1 (1)

DIRECTOR RATING:
6.96

BIGGEST FAN: fasozupow
BIGGEST HATER: Morris Schæffer
MOST DEDICATED: Daniel Davis
MOST WATCHED: Once Upon a Time in China