Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Rian Johnson)

[Ivan Drago]

https://i.imgur.com/pEKifSS.jpg?1

IMDB (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2527336/) / Wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_The_Last_Jedi)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YrA8ApA9PI

[Ivan Drago]

Making this thread now in anticipation for tomorrow....because not only will I get to see this three days before its release, but afterwards I will be writing the most important review of my life to go up on the website once the review embargo is lifted. Couldn't be more excited. :)

[Dukefrukem]

I'm not seeing it until Saturday, so once again MC will be my voice of reason.

[Skitch]

Please please please no spoilers!

[Ivan Drago]

Please please please no spoilers!

I assure you, the review will be spoiler-free. :)

[Ivan Drago]

I wanted to talk about so much more but it was a challenge to do that without treading into spoiler territory. But here is my review, spoiler-free as promised.

https://615film.com/2017/12/12/review-star-wars-last-jedi-epic-entertaining-entry-star-wars-saga/

[transmogrifier]

Seeing this tomorrow, but feel that I should watch The Force Awakens again tonight because I don't remember much about the actual plot itself. Feels a bit like homework though, which tells you a lot about how I feel about the franchise at the moment.

[Dead & Messed Up]

The most exciting thing I've heard in reviews is that Johnson answers many lingering questions from the first film and quickly.

Thank God.

[MadMan]

That porg poster rules.

[Henry Gale]

Hard to nail down just a few thoughts or even just adjectives, but to me this is just a phenomenal, thriving, emotional and haunting piece of blockbuster filmmaking. I laughed a bunch and might've wept even more.

Easily the best Star Wars movie of my lifetime. (Which is easy to say because I was born after the OT but it's also as strong an addition to rank amongst those.)

[transmogrifier]

Not good. Some seriously bad writing. I’ll get into detail once more people have seen it, but this is basically 30 minutes of story and characterization stretched out via interminable wheel-spinning. It should be called Star Wars: Buying Time.

It’s basically the slowest chase movie ever.

1. ESB
2. ANH
3. ROTJ
4. TFA
Rogue One
5. TLJ
6. TPM
7. ROTS
8. AOTC

[Dukefrukem]

If you guys haven't played with the VR stickers yet I highly recommend it.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bcr8LxIls-A/?taken-by=dukefrukem

[Peng]

Its ambitions, both thematic and story-wise, may have outstripped its actual fun a little bit (which is still a lot), but so frequently thrilling to see Johnson's attempt to interrogate and move on from past iconography/out-sized myths, along with their inherent obsessions, in order to create and chart out new ones. In this way, it feels almost like the film is talking to The Force Awakens in the same way that these new characters are questioning their worshipped legends, and the old guards growing wary of their own. Also a welcome, borderline-ambling dose of some ground-level viewpoints to consider the effects of wartime heroics, both as a spark of inspiration and as collateral damage. The actions, perhaps less delightful this time but more propulsive, crackle with precise eye-catching craft and some new awesome moves; speaking of creating some new iconography, the two main color-red-coded setpieces may rank up there with the best of the series. 8.5/10

[TGM]

The Rey/Kylo Ren/etc stuff is mostly pretty compelling, until it gets silly. The Finn/Poe/etc stuff is completely ridiculous all the way through, and then it gets silly. And then the movie overstays its welcome, and ends on the absolute silliest note possible.

Not the worst thing in the world, but oh boy is this thing all over the damn place. And what's really standing out to me the most about this movie though is that it just tries to tackle so goddamn much, and yet in execution, it is by far the sloppiest Star Wars movie to date. Like, it's sort of unbelievable in that regard just how poorly paced, poorly plotted, and poorly cut together this movie is.

It's certainly not a retread like TFA was, but more so than the other movies, you can definitely feel the Disney influence all over this film. This felt like it goddamn MCU movie, and I'm really just sick of that general style by this point.

I think I might just be done with live action Disney in general at this point...

[Mal]

What TGM said. This was good but mostly bullshit and too goddamn long.

[Peng]

I feel this big studio/Disney hangup is getting so weirdly pervasive (and more a self-fulflling pre-critcism at this point). This was both unshapely and plot-shifiting, for better or worse, in the same way that Johnson's films usually are. So a big studio determines that an audience-friendly, risk-smoothing move is to have a lengthy detour/side-mission that ultimately proves futile (but feeds into this film's worldview)? What? (Already saw a lot of complaints about this one).

[Watashi]

This movie fucks.

Hard.

[TGM]

In regards to the Disney comment, as well as the general writing of this thing, I go into spoilers, so I'm just gonna tag the whole post...

A lot of the forced humor felt ripped straight out of recent Marvel movies, and the general tone similarly felt like it was too timid to get too dark like those films, so always had this faux-lightheartedness to it. But otherwise, just writing wise, the entire Poe/Finn story is completely filler. I mean, right off the bat with that opening action sequence, that was totally a modern big blockbuster clusterfuck. I was just thinking back to the OT space battles, how you never felt lost following along, or even in the big opening space battle in Episode III, how grand it felt in scope, yet once more, it was so fluidly told on a visual level to where it was really easy to follow along with the action. But this, this opener was just an disorienting and explodey fucking mess as we followed a bunch of non-characters. But even as we get to their actual "plot", literally the whole thing is 100% preventable had Laura Dern just properly explained her plan (no reason why she didn't), and even after they execute the plan, it turns out that their plan was 100% pointless in the end anyways, meaning all this time was spent literally just to give these characters something to do for an overly long period of time, nevermind that it doesn't actually advance anything in the end anyways.

And then there's the fact that, with the First Order right on their back, it would appear that they're in quite a time crunch, yet even as they were going over their plan, all I could think was, when the fuck are they going to have time to travel around to other planets looking for people to help with this convoluted scheme? Nevermind that they take their time on said planet having these awkward quiet moments of reflection and such, even though, oh wait, we're kinda in a real fucking hurry here. It was just so poorly planned out just from a script level.

As to the Rey and Kylo Ren stuff, this wasn't without its hiccups, but it mostly worked, up to a point. That point basically being right when Kylo Ren kills Snoke (which, k, WHO was Snoke anyways? They forgot to even establish WHO this character is, WHERE he came from, and WHAT his actual aim is all this time, before just nonchalantly killing him off solely for a quick cheap shock value). Then suddenly, Kylo reverts back to being a cartoon villain, and Rey is just... sorta there? I dunno, I guess she became more aware of the force surrounding her in this movie, but otherwise, how else did her character or arc really progress? (Also, are we really to believe they're leaving it that her parents are unimportant?) This is a shame, because I actually liked her character quite a bit in TFA, but here, she really does come across as the "mary sue" everyone accused her of being.

The more I think about this movie, the more of a completely and total mess it looks like. Which is a shame, because I do dig some of the ideas present here, how it's not afraid to address the gray area between the two factions, how even the "good guys" aren't always so good and all of that. But god damn does a do a really sloppy job actually bringing any of these ideas to the forefront or really actually doing anything with them other than literally just acknowledging them before moving right along. I dunno, but this was sort of a trainwreck of ideas that really didn't come together at all.

[Mal]

Kylo Ren is SUCH A BITCH... but Adam Driver and Daisy Ridley are the best actors in this trilogy, easily. Also, doesn't anyone have shields on their goddamn ships anymore? Why does Poe introduce himself to Rey, as if for the first time at the end of this, YET they definitely met in TFA when BB-8 shared the map to Luke and when the resistance sent her off? Shit drove me crazy.

[TGM]

Why does Poe introduce himself to Rey, as if for the first time at the end of this, YET they definitely met in TFA when BB-8 shared the map to Luke and when the resistance sent her off? Shit drove me crazy.

Yeah, I also found that weird. :\

[Watashi]

I'm trying to contain my excitement, but this was a fucking Star Wars movie. It's easily the best directed Star Wars film. There are some breathtaking set pieces. I never once felt like there was too many cooks stirring the pot. The fan service never felt forced or there just for a reaction from the audience. I loved the humor. Even characters like Space Dern, Benicio Del Toro, and Kelly Marie Tran never felt wasted in their small screen time. Yeah, the pit-stop at the casino planet dragged a bit, but it was a much needed break in the roller coaster of emotional stakes.

I expected Rian Johnson to knock it out of the park, and he did it. The only downside is that I wish he was doing 9.

[Grouchy]

Rian Johnson knows what it's about.

Loved that he acknowledged, right off the bat, two things that bothered me about Force Awakens:

a. Rey being pretty much invincible without any training. A large part of this movie revolves around Rey's learning process with Luke, and that was fascinating. It made me wonder if midichlorians ever actually made it to this continuity. But seriously, I'm not a big "expanded universe" geek, but the way those scenes explore the Force seemed quite unique to me.

b. Why the fuck does Kylo Ren wear a mask, he's not distorted or anything, is he just a fucking cosplayer??? Snoke appropriately makes fun of this.

This movie was awesome. TMG pointed out something that also rang weird for me (Laura Dern just not explaining herself for no reason), but overall this is the best Star Wars movie since Empire Strikes Back.

[transmogrifier]

Slept on it. A day later, this movie is shit. I may even like Phantom Menace better.

[Scar]

Slept on it. A day later, this movie is shit. I may even like Phantom Menace better.

I need to watch it again, but I fear I’m in your camp on this one.

[[ETM]]

This is going to divide the audiences like no SW movie before it. I suspect those who had anything positive to say about Rogue One will hate this, and vice versa. And I'd rather gouge my eyes out than get anywhere near TPM.

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[Grouchy]

;583414']This is going to divide the audiences like no SW movie before it. I suspect those who had anything positive to say about Rogue One will hate this, and vice versa. And I'd rather gouge my eyes out than get anywhere near TPM.
I liked Rogue One and loved this one. I thought Force Awakens was pretty much shit.

[TGM]

Meanwhile, I hated RO, and the more I think about it, the more I hate this. I thought TFA was a mixed bag, half a really good movie, half a really obnoxious one.

[Skitch]

This mixed reaction is crazy. You guys are making me really impatient to get to the theater.

[[ETM]]

Yeah, it's even crazier than I thought.

[Scar]

My audience was cheering and eating this shit right up. I felt ridiculously out of place. I felt like we were watching different movies. I almost flung my 3D glasses in disgust a few times.

[Scar]

......porgs were cute, though.....

[[ETM]]

We had a friend with us who was like you. He's a hard core fan of the Old Republic games and lore, and doesn't even care for the original trilogy.

[Kurosawa Fan]

This movie is utter garbage. On par with the prequels. Such an utter disappointment. Disjointed, illogical, bloated, etc., etc., etc. Just awful.

EDIT: And for the record, I enjoyed The Force Awakens and really liked Rogue One. I was very excited for this.

[[ETM]]

See, I get the hate, I have quite a few problems with this film. But "on par with the prequels"? In what universe does this even remotely make sense?

[Scar]

;583421']We had a friend with us who was like you. He's a hard core fan of the Old Republic games and lore, and doesn't even care for the original trilogy.


I think, even as a kid, I was more of a Vader fan than a Star Wars fan. One of my favorite movie memories (from the theater) was seeing Vader walking down the shuttle ramp in the beginning of ROTJ. I think I was five.

[Kurosawa Fan]

;583423']See, I get the hate, I have quite a few problems with this film. But "on par with the prequels"? In what universe does this even remotely make sense?

Poor dialogue, bloated length, bad CG, sense of humor that falls flat 90% of the time, drama that elicits no emotion. It might not be quite as bad as the prequels, but it's damn close.

[TGM]

It's worse than the prequels.

I should note that I like the prequels. :p

[Ivan Drago]

I'm genuinely shocked at how divisive the reactions are for this. o__o

But on a side note, welcome back, KF!!!

[Grouchy]

Yeah, I'm kind of shocked by the negative reactions.

The Porgs were bad, by the way. They weren't cute and they didn't have any funny scenes. I get it's just marketing but it doesn't even work like that.

[Dukefrukem]

Ummm...*looks around this thread* hi Mike! How are you?

[Kurosawa Fan]

Ummm...*looks around this thread* hi Mike! How are you?

I'm doing well, bud. Thanks for asking. A very big congrats to you, by the way. Saw the engagement stuff on FB or Insta or something. Very happy for you.

[Dukefrukem]

Thanks duder! Hope to you stay a while. We were feeling nostalgic a few weeks ago and your name came up quite a bit.

You still have two other Star Wars threads to lay down your thoughts.

[Skitch]

Missed you too KF!

[Watashi]

This is going to sound condescending as hell, but if you hate this movie, you do not deserve to call yourself a Star Wars fan.

This movie is literally everything a Star Wars movie should be and more.

[Skitch]

I haven't seen the movie yet, but I'm 98% sure I'll agree with Wats. :p

[TGM]

Guess that means I'm not a Star Wars fan then. Oh well. :rolleyes:

[Mal]

Yeah, I'm kind of shocked by the negative reactions.

Frankly I’m REALLY shocked that Rian made AND WROTE a movie this bad.

[TGM]

Frankly I’m REALLY shocked that Rian made AND WROTE a movie this bad.

Yeah, the fact he also wrote this is what's most shocking of his involvement. Like, holy shit, how??

[Watashi]

Also, you guys should REALLY watch the prequels again.

[Dukefrukem]

Also, you guys should REALLY watch the prequels again.

To remember how bad they are?

[Mal]

if SEA CALF TIT MILK is what Kathleen Kennedy has in mind for the future of Star Wars... fine, don’t call me a Star Wars fan.

[Kurosawa Fan]

This is going to sound condescending as hell, but if you hate this movie, you do not deserve to call yourself a Star Wars fan.

This movie is literally everything a Star Wars movie should be and more.


Good to know some things haven't changed during my absence.

[Grouchy]

Man, Johnson took the garbage Abrams had made and he filled those characters with life, conflict and emotion. I'm even convinced that some of the most deliberate misdirections and red herrings (such as Rey's heritage) are a metatextual way for him to show how idiotic the "mysteries" of the first movie really were.

Also, in which other Star Wars movie can you guys find better battleship fighting sequences?

[Grouchy]

if SEA CALF TIT MILK is what Kathleen Kennedy has in mind for the future of Star Wars... fine, don’t call me a Star Wars fan.
Loved that and the fishing moment inmediately afterwards. World building at its funniest.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Luke was going to KILL HIS NEPHEW without even having a discussion with him about what he was sensing.

If that's STAR WARS then I'll happily walk away from the fandom.

[Watashi]

Good to know some things haven't changed during my absence.

You literally came back just to be negative!

[Mal]

Loved that and the fishing moment inmediately afterwards. World building at its funniest.

I liked the fish part. But the fucking tit milk was on par with the mind control thing in Rogue One. He’s a farm boy but I don’t want to see him milk something. There’s a space-y disconnect between bodily functions in this universe- lets keep it that way.

[Kurosawa Fan]

You literally came back just to be negative!

Hahahahaha. Very true. I hated this movie so much I needed to come to a comfortable corner of the internet and vent.

[TGM]

Also, in which other Star Wars movie can you guys find better battleship fighting sequences?

All of them?

[Mal]

All of them?

Yeah pretty much.

[[ETM]]

Also, in which other Star Wars movie can you guys find better battleship fighting sequences?

I kept wondering about the praise for the final battle in Rogue One. Compared to the initial battle in TLJ it's like amateur hour.

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[Grouchy]

All of them?
Are you serious?

Most space battles in all Star Wars are not very creative or well directed. Johnson gives them a sense of wonder and a structure here that makes them stand out.

[Watashi]

Man, Johnson took the garbage Abrams had made and he filled those characters with life, conflict and emotion. I'm even convinced that some of the most deliberate misdirections and red herrings (such as Rey's heritage) are a metatextual way for him to show how idiotic the "mysteries" of the first movie really were.

Also, in which other Star Wars movie can you guys find better battleship fighting sequences?

Very true. This movie is the anti-Mystery box that JJ Abrams put forth. One of the first images is Luke throwing the lightsaber off the cliff. He's like, "fuck your Star Wars theories." This movie is not a retread of Empire Strikes Back (which apparently most people wanted?), but a brutal takedown of the Jedi mythology.

[Grouchy]

I liked the fish part. But the fucking tit milk was on par with the mind control thing in Rogue One. He’s a farm boy but I don’t want to see him milk something. There’s a space-y disconnect between bodily functions in this universe- lets keep it that way.
*shrug* I thought it was a funny detail. If you find it that gross, well maybe that's like your thing. Like how I can't watch the "nails on a chalkboard" scene in Jaws without wincing. I'm wincing just typing about it.

[TGM]

Are you serious?

Most space battles in all Star Wars are not very creative or well directed. Johnson gives them a sense of wonder and a structure here that makes them stand out.

I can't agree with this at all. This is the first instance in any of these movies where the space battles were a complete discombobulated mess.

Two spaceship moments that stood out as good would be the lightspeed attack at the end, and Rey's drop-off from the Falcon, so I'll give you those moments. The rest was disastrous to watch.

[Watashi]

The opening space battle of Revenge of the Sith is one of the worst "battles" ever put on screen in a Star Wars movie. It's like a bad PS3 cutscene.

[[ETM]]

This thread is getting really weird, fast. I literally cannot even.

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[TGM]

The opening space battle of Revenge of the Sith is one of the worst "thing" ever put on screen on a Star Wars movie. It's like a bad PS3 cut

Oh, ok.

[Mal]

*shrug* I thought it was a funny detail. If you find it that gross, well maybe that's like your thing. Like how I can't watch the "nails on a chalkboard" scene in Jaws without wincing. I'm wincing just typing about it.

Gross, no... but why. Why. Why.

[Grouchy]

Gross, no... but why. Why. Why.
Because he lives off the environment? It makes perfect sense to me that he'd milk an animal.

I'm only getting fixated on this because I don't even know what to say to TGM. It would appear that we are completely at odds as to what constitutes a good battle scene.

[TGM]

Because he lives off the environment? It makes perfect sense to me that he'd milk an animal.

I'm only getting fixated on this because I don't even know what to say to TGM. It would appear that we are completely at odds as to what constitutes a good battle scene.

As to the opening scene for example, it just felt all over the place, cutting all around to all these other ships with nameless characters who we don't even know, and I found myself just growing numb watching it. It was a typical modern day CGI splooge action sequence, and was just all over the place, with nothing to really guide us along as shit just happens and more shit just explodes all around. It had no flow to it, and I could barely tell what anyone's objective even was. But that's what I took from it at least, was that it was just too much shit happening and was hard to really follow or care about anything happening, until the very end of it when we finally found some focus on that last bomber ship. But perhaps you could explain what about this sequence in particular stood out to you that made you think it was exceptional?

[Watashi]

The reaction on Match Cut is not too far off from the general reaction elsewhere. After watching it, I would not expect this to be the most divisive Star Wars film and people claiming it isn't just bad but worse than the prequels. You know... the films with Hayden Christensen, Jar Jar Binks, sand romance, and Yoda and an 80 year old man flubber lightsaber fighting.

[transmogrifier]

The reaction on Match Cut is not too far off from the general reaction elsewhere. After watching it, I would not expect this to be the most divisive Star Wars film and people claiming it isn't just bad but worse than the prequels. You know... the films with Hayden Christensen, Jar Jar Binks, sand romance, and Yoda and an 80 year old man flubber lightsaber fighting.

And yet.... this movie has a worse story than any of them.

[Watashi]

Can you even tell me what The Phantom Menace is about?

Not being snarky, but just curious, because that movie's plot is convoluted as hell.

[Grouchy]

As to the opening scene for example, it just felt all over the place, cutting all around to all these other ships with nameless characters who we don't even know, and I found myself just growing numb watching it. It was a typical modern day CGI splooge action sequence, and was just all over the place, with nothing to really guide us along as shit just happens and more shit just explodes all around. It had no flow to it, and I could barely tell what anyone's objective even was. But that's what I took from it at least, was that it was just too much shit happening and was hard to really follow or care about anything happening, until the very end of it when we finally found some focus on that last bomber ship. But perhaps you could explain what about this sequence in particular stood out to you that made you think it was exceptional?
Well, the pivotal characters in the scene are Poe Dameron, Leia Organa and General Hux. So... the nameless characters are pilots for other ships, which makes sense and is completely consistent with every Star Wars film ever released. There are clear objectives to the scene - Leia wants to escape from the enemy fleet while Poe would rather engage and destroy it, disregarding the possible casualties.

What you are describing sounds like a Michael Bay sequence, which is not what I saw on the theater.

Anyway, while I loved that scene (and inmediately found it more arousing than, say, yet another remake of the "let's destroy this Death Star" videogame - which is what I love about this film, it finally covers new ground) the real highlight is the climatic battle with Kylo Ren and Luke. Loved the color scheme of red against white.

[Grouchy]

And yet.... this movie has a worse story than any of them.
Are you guys purposefully saying crazy stuff?

[Mal]

I CANNOT wait for Red Letter Media to review this. Of all people out there, I agree with the conflicted take that Jeremy Jahns has on it.

[Watashi]

Well, the pivotal characters in the scene are Poe Dameron, Leia Organa and General Hux. So... the nameless characters are pilots for other ships, which makes sense and is completely consistent with every Star Wars film ever released. There are clear objectives to the scene - Leia wants to escape from the enemy fleet while Poe would rather engage and destroy it, disregarding the possible casualties.

What you are describing sounds like a Michael Bay sequence, which is not what I saw on the theater.

Anyway, while I loved that scene (and inmediately found it more arousing than, say, yet another remake of the "let's destroy this Death Star" videogame - which is what I love about this film, it finally covers new ground) the real highlight is the climatic battle with Kylo Ren and Luke. Loved the color scheme of red against white.

Even the "faceless" characters like Rose's sister was given her moment of heroism. Not only does her sacrifice give weight and motivation when we meet Rose later, but it sets up the crux of the whole film, that heroism doesn't come from legends, but from every corner of the galaxy.

[Grouchy]

Damn, you're right. TGM, you got served!

I also liked Rose's sister because she had that kind of face, like a scientist character in a '60s Godzilla flick.

[Grouchy]

I will say this, the weak point of the film is Finn and Rose's casino adventure - the casino planet itself is great, but I found the animal cruelty message a bit too on-the-nose and laughable... and it was kind of weird that they didn't really achieve anything at the end.

[TGM]

Well, the pivotal characters in the scene are Poe Dameron, Leia Organa and General Hux. So... the nameless characters are pilots for other ships, which makes sense and is completely consistent with every Star Wars film ever released. There are clear objectives to the scene - Leia wants to escape from the enemy fleet while Poe would rather engage and destroy it, disregarding the possible casualties.

That's not quite what I meant by their objective. I understood all that, but when we were following the actual action of all the ships flying around, a lot of the time I couldn't actually tell who was doing what to what, and why and how? It was just shit flying all over the place, and edited together in a way that made it feel hard to follow the action. That's what I meant by "couldn't tell their objective". And yes, I know that the other movies also include nameless characters, however they're all shot and cut together in such a way that I'm never confused by what everyone is actually doing.

You had mentioned though about the direction of the action, and that's what I'm curious about. What was it about the direction of these sequences that stood out to you as exceptional?

I'll give you that final confrontation, at least in terms of the general atmosphere of it. Still thought it was hampered by Kylo's suddenly becoming a cartoon character by that point, but, *shrug*


Even the "faceless" characters like Rose's sister was given her moment of heroism. Not only does her sacrifice give weight and motivation when we meet Rose later, but it sets up the crux of the whole film, that heroism doesn't come from legends, but from every corner of the galaxy.

This is actually a good point. Nice how moments like this can stand out when the movie actually focuses on them.


Damn, you're right. TGM, you got served!

Not really, I had already agreed before that that's when the sequence actually started to finally work. :p

[transmogrifier]

Can you even tell me what The Phantom Menace is about?

Not being snarky, but just curious, because that movie's plot is convoluted as hell.

It’s about two guys finding some young kid and thinking he’s someone special. That’s about all that matters; it’s enough to make it better than whatever this is trying to be.

[transmogrifier]

Are you guys purposefully saying crazy stuff?

No. I genuinely think this is a bad movie and i genuinely think that if Lucas or Abrams had directed this, it would be more universally lambasted.

[Scar]

I felt like they tossed empire and Jedi into a blender and squished it into one movie. Rushed and overlong at the same time.

[Grouchy]

You had mentioned though about the direction of the action, and that's what I'm curious about. What was it about the direction of these sequences that stood out to you as exceptional?
Well, George Lucas has this stoic way of directing action (inspired by Kurosawa) which, even though it has become synonimous with the franchise, is not exactly energetic after forty years of action cinema. Sometimes it works great (the prequels have some pretty awesome duels shot in this style) and sometimes it's just boring. I don't really like Abrams either as a writer or as a director and I still haven't seen anything good that he's done, but he did try to get away from that - mainly by inserting his favorite post-production gimmick, the lens flare.

Johnson just takes it to another level with skill and confidence. I don't remember the last time I forgot I was watching a Hollywood movie and actually felt that some character might be in danger. This movie did that for me.

[Watashi]

Yeah, The Last Jedi was probably the first film since A New Hope that felt directly inspired by Kurosawa films. The whole stand-off on Crait is a reflection of the best samurai films.

[Watashi]

I think my weird complaint (and it's not really a complaint, but an observation) is how this new trilogy has sidelined major players like C3PO and R2D2. Though I did love R2's small reunion with Luke, he completely disappears after that scene. I feel like BB-8 has overtaken his role, but R2 is such an integral part in the previous trilogy, it feels like he's just a decoy for the fans.

[Dukefrukem]

The opening space battle of Revenge of the Sith is one of the worst "battles" ever put on screen in a Star Wars movie. It's like a bad PS3 cutscene.

I'm avoiding most of the posts in this thread. But I just rewatched this scene when I saw your post, and I'm not finding it all that bad. I especially love the one shot intro, and the reveal when both their ships are far overhead the main battle. Then there's the ship that gets shot down and the camera does a slow pan and you can see the bodies floating in space. Very dark. And then when the buzz droids saw R4 in half.. that was cool too.

What especially don't you like about this scene? There's some phyics issues in this scene... but what Star Wars doesn't have physics issues?

[Grouchy]

Heh, in this movie they open a hacht to let Leia back inside... why aren't they all sucked into space at that precise moment?

[[ETM]]

Automatic forcefield, like the Empire uses on shuttle bays? Or the ones on Star Trek?

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[Irish]

Random thoughts on the thread so far:

- Not enough mentions of porg-on-porg action. Where's the porg love, brothers and sisters?

- Scar's and TGM's reactions are shocking and have me worried. (But I kinda dig Watashi's full-throated defense & enthusiasm.)

- Waiting for Duke and Skitch to weigh in.

[TGM]

Where's the porg love, brothers and sisters?.

Not in this movie, that's for sure. :p

[Scar]

Random thoughts on the thread so far:

- Not enough mentions of porg-on-porg action. Where's the porg love, brothers and sisters?

- Scar's and TGM's reactions are shocking and have me worried. (But I kinda dig Watashi's full-throated defense & enthusiasm.)

- Waiting for Duke and Skitch to weigh in.

I’m currently enjoying a bottle of bourbon barrel aged red wine and Rogue One, all while on 3 hours of sleep.

[Peng]

No. I genuinely think this is a bad movie and i genuinely think that if Lucas or Abrams had directed this, it would be more universally lambasted.

Holy bad faith assumption alert. (Don't mind me, I should get used to it by now and somehow still don't)


I will say this, the weak point of the film is Finn and Rose's casino adventure - the casino planet itself is great, but I found the animal cruelty message a bit too on-the-nose and laughable... and it was kind of weird that they didn't really achieve anything at the end.

The execution is arguable, maybe should be more zippy or delve deeper (as in not concentrated to just Rose's one speech, although I liked the appearance of locals by the end). But conceptually I love that the the whole plotline, along with many minor details along the way, is a bigger demonstration of the conflict between Dern and Isaac.

[Watashi]

Porgs definitely fuck.

[Mr. McGibblets]

I think I'm done with Disney crap.

Poorly paced. The structure is cribbed entirely too much from Empire. (They even reset the world to the beginning of Empire with the tiny Rebellion on the run and a dark lord who exists purely to fill in the Emperor's role.) They split the characters and have one go train with an old jedi while the other protagonists are engaged in a quickly-paced run from Star Destroyers. Then we have to heavily reference the throne room scene (and build-up to such). The fighting at the end goes on for so long and over so many scenes. Luke doesn't feel like Luke at all. Rey and Finn have much less to do than in TFA. Poe (and the vice-admiral) is the best part and he ends up completely fucking up everything (but no one seems to mind much.)

[Wryan]

This was weird as hell. The last hour was filled with so many false-stops I thought it was never going to let me leave the theater. And yet there are some moments that rank with the greatest SW moments in the entire saga. Annnnd then there's Leia the space angel. The casino interlude was not terribly interesting. I don't know what Hux's function here is supposed to be. Goddamn Driver puts everything into this; he's terrific. I liked the exploration of Luke's ambivalence with his legend and his connection to the Force. Was totally surprised by the appearance of our little green friend, but that turned into a nice moment.

The last hour has so many cool moments that probably deserved their own movie so we wouldn't be so exhausted by that point that we can't enjoy them as much. I don't think I'll sit thru this again in theaters. But I'd be happy to watch it again sometime.

[Dead & Messed Up]

I liked it more than TFA and Rogue One. The Luke/Rey/Kylo action was all interesting and well-executed. Agreed with many that I wasn't as invested in the casino adventure, although my take on the animal discussion was that she was speaking metaphorically about suffering her tribe had endured. A lot of the character work that I wasn't as impressed with felt carried over from TFA (specifically that Finn in this film is more function than character, whereas in the last film he was basically whatever Abrams wanted him to be at any given moment). There's a lot of exciting ideas in the film, especially the overall theme of being willing to let go of the past to forge your own future.

Luke has to be okay with letting go of the Jedi, Rose is willing to give up her necklace, Rey is able to move past her own feelings of abandonment, but Kylo is still so tumultuous internally that he can't lay down his burdens - he has to raze them to the ground.

On that note, appreciated a number of reveals and surprises in the film:

(1) Snoke getting axed. Fine with it, loved when it happened. We could learn about him later, or not. Frankly, he's another Abrams relic I'm happy to see dispatched with little pomp. (2) Phasma getting dropped down a well. Good. Same as (1). (3) Seeing Yoda. At first, nahh, but I loved that he brought the theme home as he stood beside Luke.

While there's nothing in the film that gave me the emotions I felt in the first two Star Wars films, there was a real ambition and drive here to futz with the formula, to shirk the overall regality and borderline-masturbatory honorings of the prior two films. Like Watashi says, this film is in many ways a piss-take to The Force Awakens, saying, "Oh, yeah, what else you got?" It's maybe my favorite of this franchise since the original three - not quite as good as I'd privately hoped, but sturdier on a dramatic level than either previous Disney offering, more willing to venture off the beaten path, and even when it's replicating, it's subverting.

On that note, I appreciated that the standoff at the end is more-or-less detritus of both armies. The great legacy of the Empire is in tatters, throwing one more Death Star laser at the heroes (a pitiful little railgun of a thing, dragged along by a couple of gorilla-walkers), while the survivors pilot clunky little craft before escaping back on the goddamn Falcon, which has never looked smaller.

There were definitely moments where I wasn't sure how I felt about developments (an escape for Leia, a crucial moment with Luke at the end), but I'd like to watch the film again to see how they settle. This is a beast of a movie, so another viewing where I can spend more time paying attention to the character dynamics, their goals and motivations and self-discovery, will help me gain a better sense of it all.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Also, regarding Luke and Ben's confrontation in this film:

While I agree that Luke shouldn't want to kill Ben, the film seems pretty clear on the idea that he doesn't want to either. And then he doesn't. But because Ben only catches the tail end of Luke's action, there's no moment for a reconciliation or understanding. Ben sees a lightsaber and reacts. I don't think it breaks Luke's character to consider hurting someone who he thinks will allow the Dark Side to prevail. He very nearly killed his own father in Jedi and only relented when he saw that he was repeating the crimes of the past, trading death for death. He recognizes that he's poised at the same precipice in this film and again relents.

[Grouchy]

Yeah, I thought that was well handled. I don't think it's out of character for Luke to consider killing his student to avoid another Vader. After all, the whole saga is about balance between light and darkness.

[Peng]

Should be interesting to see this one's Cinemascore. A friend posted this (http://m.ign.com/articles/2017/12/16/why-do-some-star-wars-fans-hate-the-last-jedi) on facebook with the caption "Some?? All REAL fans hate it. Disgrace to the lore and the legacy." Seems to be a growing sentiment among some, and they tend to be the group that Cinemascore samples on opening weekend.

[Irish]

https://i.imgur.com/fqAJSsD.png?1

^ Strangely large gap between critical and audience reaction.

[Mal]

Should be interesting to see this one's Cinemascore. A friend posted this (http://m.ign.com/articles/2017/12/16/why-do-some-star-wars-fans-hate-the-last-jedi) on facebook with the caption "Some?? All REAL fans hate it. Disgrace to the lore and the legacy." Seems to be a growing sentiment among some, and they tend to be the group that Cinemascore samples on opening weekend.
I agree with Snoke criticism - it felt lacking and we obviously got plenty of understanding of the Emperor. But the other things are not issues, especially considering that there's another movie coming. People are ridiculous.

[kuehnepips]

I'm with Wats on this one.

Welcome back KF!

[Dukefrukem]

Random thoughts on the thread so far:

- Not enough mentions of porg-on-porg action. Where's the porg love, brothers and sisters?

- Scar's and TGM's reactions are shocking and have me worried. (But I kinda dig Watashi's full-throated defense & enthusiasm.)

- Waiting for Duke and Skitch to weigh in.

Seeing it tonight with the family.

[Grouchy]

Dude, Zac, it turns out the milk isn't just some random addition. Blue milk is what Luke is having for breakfast with his family in Tattooine in A New Hope.

The vanishing dice are apparently also a reference. They're seen hanging, car style, in the control room of the Millennium Falcon during the OT.

[Mal]

Dude, Zac, it turns out the milk isn't just some random addition. Blue milk is what Luke is having for breakfast with his family in Tattooine in A New Hope.

Tits, Grouchy. TITS.

[Philip J. Fry]

So...
am I the only person that was reminded of this on Rey's cave scene?

https://thenerdsofcolor.files.wordpres s.com/2013/10/legend-of-korra-119-full-episode-16x9.jpg?w=1200

[Rico]

Love Rey's journey in this. Her scenes with Kylo and Luke and whatever that evil pit was, it all worked for me.

The Poe and Finn storyline is mostly a complete dud. I say mostly because I did like the introduction of Rose. Her first scene with Finn reminded me of when Rey and Finn first meet Han. How they looked up to Han as a hero of the rebellion.

[Rico]

1. The Empire Strikes Back
2. A New Hope
3. The Force Awakens
4. Return of the Jedi
5. The Last Jedi
6. Revenge of the Sith
7. The Phantom Menace
8. Attack of the Clones
9. Rogue One

[Philip J. Fry]

From worst to best:

9. Attack of the Clones
8. The Phantom Menace
7. Return of the Sith
6. Rogue One
5. The Force Awakens
4. Return of the Jedi
3. The Last Jedi
2. A New Hope
1. The Empire Strikes Back

I consider the first six places good ranging to great movies.

[Philip J. Fry]

Tits, Grouchy. TITS.942122166576996352

[Dukefrukem]

LOVE the journey aspect of this film. I'm going to sleep on it, but this is the feeling I was hoping to get out of Force Awakens.

More tomorrow.

[Dukefrukem]

And yet.... this movie has a worse story than any of them.

There's no galaxy this is true. As Wats said, try and think of the plot of Phantom Menace, (and not just the stuff about Vadar) including everything about the republic and the trade federation. It's a shit show.

[Henry Gale]

https://i.imgur.com/fqAJSsD.png?1

^ Strangely large gap between critical and audience reaction.

Despite this being not far off from our own current poll split of 60-40, I have found myself going along with the camp of those who believe this really might be the work of strange, sad 4chan and Reddit contingents storming the audience score to push it into the green.

Especially because if what I heard recently is true that on opening day for a movie on RT, everyone's "Want To See" votes from their site and Flixster are automatically absorbed and converted as Fresh, then it would be pretty fuckin' hard to make the audience score of a movie with maximum awareness and 99%-type levels of anticipation fall so instantly without other forces at play.

But I also loved it a lot and have found a lot of the hate I've read somewhat unfathomable/incoherent to really want to believe it all so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[transmogrifier]

But I also loved it a lot and have found a lot of the hate I've read somewhat unfathomable/incoherent to really want to believe it all so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Reversed for me; I found a lot of the support for it to be tenuous at best... e.g., it's like Kurosawa because it flashes back to the same things three times! I mean, just because it does something a great film has done in the past does not make it great in itself. There is so much reaching going on to apologize for all its basic terribleness in core plotting and characterization.

[transmogrifier]

Also, finally rewatched TFA - it's worse than I remembered, but still better than TLJ.

1. ESB - 92
2. ANH - 84
3. ROTJ - 83
4. Rogue One - 56
5. TFA - 55
6. TLJ - 49
7. TPM - 44
8. ROTS - 41
9. AOTC - 13

[Weems]

Quite possibly the worst movie I've ever seen. I loved Brick and Rian Johnson's work on Breaking Bad, but I wouldn't even shake his hand in public after seeing this crap. Did this movie really have a script?

Great:

The Empire Strikes Back

A New Hope / Return of the Jedi


Lousy:

The prequels


Abysmal:

The Force Awakens

Rogue One


Despair inducing:

The Last Jedi

[Watashi]

Quite possibly the worst movie I've ever seen.

That's silly.


I loved Brick and Rian Johnson's work on Breaking Bad, but I wouldn't even shake his hand in public after seeing this crap.

Your chances of meeting him are very low, but okay!


Did this movie really have a script?

Yes.

[transmogrifier]

What's weird to me is that most of the semi-professional critics I follow on Letterboxd have gone wild on this (comparatively), which I think goes to show how the critical mindset has shifted in this era, moving away from judging a film on its underlying craft (plotting, story, tone, rhythm, thematic unity) and focusing more on visuals, "moments", homages, self-referentiality, and genre deconstruction. I simply cannot understand otherwise how some of the most blatantly poor story decisions in this film (and there are many) can be summarily ignored or dismissed just because the throne room was red like in Kurosawa films (!) or Snoke was killed off unceremoniously as a reference to all the theories that were going around (double !!).

[transmogrifier]

Oh, I forgot to ask: did you guys have onscreen introductory text for each of the characters when they first appeared? I would assume not and what we got was a regional thing because Rogue One absolutely bombed here in Korea and Disney are trying to make things more accessible.

[Weems]

What's weird to me is that most of the semi-professional critics I follow on Letterboxd have gone wild on this (comparatively), which I think goes to show how the critical mindset has shifted in this era, moving away from judging a film on its underlying craft (plotting, story, tone, rhythm, thematic unity) and focusing more on visuals, "moments", homages, self-referentiality, and genre deconstruction. I simply cannot understand otherwise how some of the most blatantly poor story decisions in this film (and there are many) can be summarily ignored or dismissed just because the throne room was red like in Kurosawa films (!) or Snoke was killed off unceremoniously as a reference to all the theories that were going around (double !!).

When I see David Ehrlich claim this is the best Star Wars film, I want to tear my hair out. Not only is there not a single memorable line of dialogue in this film, there isn't a single decent line. Leia survives space vacuum in the laziest deus ex machina manner possible. Finn is a useless slapstick character. Hux behaves like an SNL parody of a sneering British malevolent villain, with none of the menace/presence of Tarkin. Why didn't Laura Dern tell Oscar Isaac what was up in the first place? To create fake drama? Why did Rose prevent Finn from reaching the generator by almost killing both of them, and then spouting off a line about "I saved you!" like somebody in the worst episode of the worst CW show? Why does this movie parrot exact scenes from Empire and ROTJ beat by beat? Why did Lucasfilm waste money on this shitty Snoke cgi that looks no better than some third-rate video game cutscene character, and has been poorly established and spouts the most absurd and cliche villain lines? Why is a bootleg Battle of Hoth ripoff starting like 2 hours into the movie? etc. Everything about this film is utter garbage.

[Dukefrukem]

Oh, I forgot to ask: did you guys have onscreen introductory text for each of the characters when they first appeared? I would assume not and what we got was a regional thing because Rogue One absolutely bombed here in Korea and Disney are trying to make things more accessible.

No.

And I'm still waiting for you to give examples of the poor story decisions. I can think of one legitimate one;

When Finn decides to be a suicide bomber

[transmogrifier]

No.

And I'm still waiting for you to give examples of the poor story decisions. I can think of one legitimate one;

When Finn decides to be a suicide bomber

That's the only one you can find? I don't believe it.

[Dukefrukem]

When I see David Ehrlich claim this is the best Star Wars film, I want to tear my hair out. Not only is there not a single memorable line of dialogue in this film, there isn't a single decent line. Leia survives space vacuum in the laziest deus ex machina manner possible. Finn is a useless slapstick character. Hux behaves like an SNL parody of a sneering British malevolent villain, with none of the menace/presence of Tarkin. Why didn't Laura Dern tell Oscar Isaac what was up in the first place? To create fake drama? Why did Rose prevent Finn from reaching the generator by almost killing both of them, and then spouting off a line about "I saved you!" like somebody in the worst episode of the worst CW show? Why does this movie parrot exact scenes from Empire and ROTJ beat by beat? Why did Lucasfilm waste money on this shitty Snoke cgi that looks no better than some third-rate video game cutscene character, and has been poorly established and spouts the most absurd and cliche villain lines? Why is a bootleg Battle of Hoth ripoff starting like 2 hours into the movie? etc. Everything about this film is utter garbage.

He's an alternate take on your criticisms.

1. No memorable line: Incorrect: "See you around kid" from Skywalker towards Kylo as he disappears, homage to Han.

2. Deus Ex Machina Leia: Incorrect: You know she's force sensitive right? We saw two new force powers in TFA, and two more in TLJ-

3. Finn: They made him go on a journey to get the code-breaker (Which I Loved)

4. Hux: This is true, but it's no different from his character in TFA, I think everyone on MC agrees with this.

5. Dern: It was pretty clear she was demonstrating rank, and she did clearly say he was demoted

6. Rose/Finn: I hated this scene and I agree it's a valid criticism.

7. Empire/ROTJ: It didn't really but why did TFA mirror ANH? You could argue the Luke training was mirroring Empire I suppose, but what else? The Emperor wasn't killed in Empire.

8. Snoke: I thought he was more menacing in this movie than TFA, They demonstrated his power nicely. Anything about Snoke being a lame mirror of the Emperor I support, but that's JJ's fault. Johnson was just working with what he had.

9. Hoth: Because there was AT-ATs?

10. Garbage? No it wasn't.

[Dukefrukem]

That's the only one you can find? I don't believe it.

Well where's your list? Did I miss it?

[transmogrifier]

Just for fun, here is a list of the dumb shit I remember from it:

- Laura Dern's character not telling Poe what's up, leading to the entire casino thing being a huge waste of screen time.
- The ridiculous Leia spacewalk nonsense
- The fact that Luke decides to create a distraction but does not tell anyone involved, expecting that they would just figure it out.
- The kamikaze ship could have been used much, much sooner
- The kamikaze ship miraculously kills all the Stormtroopers around Rose and Finn, but of course not Rose and Finn
- The porgs are so poorly synthesized in the story that they come across as the most cynical thing I have seen in Star Wars thus far
- Hux is a stupid, boring, annoying, poorly acted character
- Phasma has two defining features: shiny armour and being female. There is literally nothing else about her that makes her interesting. She gets the Boba Fett treatment.
- Snoke is all powerful until he conveniently isn't.
(- I might be misremembering this, so I put it in brackets: a big deal is made about the chasing First Order ship not noticing the escaping shuttles, but as soon as del Toro tells them about them, they are suddenly visible from the bridge anyway)
- The entire chase is so murderously boring ("12 hours of fuel left!"/"6 hours of fuel left!") and it is intercut with the pointless casino digression mentioned above
- Suddenly force ghosts can physically affect the material world. Yay, I guess
- I generally liked the Luke/Rey scenes and the Rey/Kylo scenes (I certainly don't see any problem with Luke's characterization) but I don't think his motivation to help was very well sketched and everything was generally rushed in this sense. And good god, stop talking about the force and just let them use it!
(- not story related, but I don't think Ridley is a very good actress)
- Also, the worldbuilding is terrible. Is the First Order just a bunch of ships happy to follow rebels for a day? Or do they rule the galaxy? How do the other worlds work? No-one seems to know and no-one seems to care.
- BB8 the deux ex machina is getting tired already.
- Overall, this whole trilogy wrote itself into a corner by so closely mimicking the OT. I read on reddit someone suggest that this trilogy should have been set in the wild west after the OT with competing Jedi factions and training taking place etc but it's too far gone now and nothing can really redeem it. I don't like any of the characters that are left except Ren, but he does not make a compelling villain, so I don't know where it goes from here.

[transmogrifier]

See the Dern thing about pulling rank may well be true and explains her actions in universe, but it does not make the resulting waste of time any more dramatically satisfying for the viewer. It is just an extremely bad storytelling choice coupled with poor execution.

[Dukefrukem]

See the Dern thing about pulling rank may well be true and explains her actions in universe, but it does not make the resulting waste of time any more dramatically satisfying for the viewer. It is just an extremely bad storytelling choice coupled with poor execution.

Agreed. If they had made the mutiny start much earlier so Poe had something to do- that would have been a better plot device.

[transmogrifier]

Agreed. If they had made the mutiny start much earlier so Poe had something to do- that would have been a better plot device.

Especially because all that ended up happening was Poe saying "Oh, yeah, that's a good plan" and Holdo saying "I like him" - I mean, absolutely nothing came from it. Which made it even doubly pointless. I can tolerate digressions if they build character or add to the depth of the film's universe to create resonance with other aspects of the story - but the whole thing was essentially a pointless side quest.

[Dukefrukem]

SPOILERS BELOW

The one criticism that would have sealed the deal for me; Introduce Rose much earlier and make it about a group of people setting off to accomplish their task. The problem is they don't give Poe much to do (again), other than be a hotshot pilot. It would have made more sense if the made the mutiny scene start earlier and last longer while Rose and Finn were at the casino and Leia was in her coma. That way Poe is dealing with the ship, Finn/Rose are on Casino planet, Rey is in training and they all come together later- But I really enjoyed seeing that casino scenes play out. Loved Benicio Del Toro's character, even though they didn't really finish his arc. The chase scene on the greyhounds was well done.

Farewell Captain Phasma. We barely knew ya. I love that Johnson is basically purging all of the dumb characters that were introduced to us in AFW by JJ. Was happy to see Snoke go and didn't think Disney had the balls to make that happen. Hux is up next. He's a charactercher of a bad guy and a terrible character.

What I loved: I mentioned before, I love the journey. I love a group of friends going their different ways to accomplish missions, and all assemble at the end. It felt true to how a Star Wars film should play out. I also loved the Yoda appearance. Was it puppet Yoda combined with CGI? I loved the reveal that Rey's parents were a bunch of nobody's as everyone was fearing she was Obi-Wan's daughter or related to the Skywalkers. For a couple of moments I thought she was going to be Kylo's twin sister.

The humor is back (somewhat). BB8 brings most of the laughs. I loved the porgs. Yes i did. I loved the natives on the Jedi Temple island. I love that Rey was torn on who to believe; Kylo or Luke when recounting the story. I thought they did an excellent job letting the audience doubt what was really going to happen. Was Rey going to turn dark? Was Kylo going to turn light? Are they twins? How are they connected? These questions are all answered, but it cast doubt into the audience, and by the time Rey confronts Snoke- she realizes she's completely under matched and didn't fully understand what she was sensing when talking with Kylo.

We saw two new force powers in TFA, and two more in TLJ- I think most people thought this would be the sendoff for Leia- but I really enjoyed what they did with her spacewalk.

What I didnt love: Painting Finn as a coward. I suppose he had a justifiable reason to leave, but they could have handled this much better.

I didn't love how they wrapped up DJ.

I didn't love the bomber run. But I did love that this movie is Death Star-less.

I thought the Hoth/Ground battle was senseless and pointless. There's no way those ships ever had a chance. That scene was purely for visual aesthetic and fan-service.

And I absolutely hated when Finn decides to become a suicide bomber. Where did this come from? There is nothing leading up to this - there is nothing that suggests this was even a remotely good idea. And the worst part of the film isn't even that decision. It's the one that follows it where Rose decides to risk killing HER self AND Finn by crashing her ship into Finn's. DUMB.

Overall, this film is overwhelming better than TFA, and it leaves JJ with little to workwith in Episode IX, which I believe is a GOOD thing. The less he has to work with the better.


1.Return of the Jedi ★★★★★
2.The Empire Strikes Back ★★★★★
3.Star Wars ★★★★★
4.Star Wars: The Last Jedi
5.Rogue One: A Star Wars Story ★★★
6.Star Wars: Episode I – The Phantom Menace ★★★
7.Star Wars: The Force Awakens ★★½
8.Star Wars: Episode III – Revenge of the Sith ★★½
9.Star Wars: Episode II – Attack of the Clones ★★
10.Star Wars: The Clone Wars ★½

[Dukefrukem]

8 wins


Fuck it, let's do this. What should we bet on that Luke is not related to Rey at all?

[Dukefrukem]

And not that we didn't really know this already- but nothing is to be believed by voice overs in trailers, or the color of the film's title. Excellent marketing by Disney.

[Skitch]

And not that we didn't really know this already- but nothing is to be believed by voice overs in trailers, or the color of the film's title. Excellent marketing by Disney.

GOOD!

[Sycophant]

When I can't remember the name Hux I call him that guy who looks like the bad prince from Frozen.

This was a very good time in a theater and a very good movie to be called Star Wars in the year 2017. More later if I feel like it.

[Dukefrukem]

When I can't remember the name Hux I call him that guy who looks like the bad prince from Frozen.


LOL Yes!

[Sycophant]

In the final scene where Luke is in a motherfucking standoff with hundreds of First Order forces, I thought the movie might just cut to credits from that Leone-as-shit shot and as I was beginning to expect this, I began asking myself whether I would respect and defend that bold-as-shit decision or be disappointed myself.

[Dukefrukem]

In the final scene where Luke is in a motherfucking standoff with hundreds of First Order forces, I thought the movie might just cut to credits from that Leone-as-shit shot and as I was beginning to expect this, I began asking myself whether I would respect and defend that bold-as-shit decision or be disappointed myself.

There was a part of me that thought he was going to go full on Galen Marek / Starkiller on all the AT-ATs.

[Dead & Messed Up]

In the final scene where Luke is in a motherfucking standoff with hundreds of First Order forces, I thought the movie might just cut to credits from that Leone-as-shit shot and as I was beginning to expect this, I began asking myself whether I would respect and defend that bold-as-shit decision or be disappointed myself.

I briefly thought that too, but I think they made the right decision.

[Sycophant]

They for sure did.

[Sycophant]

BTW, this movie the exact right amount of porg in it.

[Grouchy]

See the Dern thing about pulling rank may well be true and explains her actions in universe, but it does not make the resulting waste of time any more dramatically satisfying for the viewer. It is just an extremely bad storytelling choice coupled with poor execution.
Agreed, but that's about the only thing we agree on.

1. Empire Strikes Back
2. The Last Jedi
3. A New Hope
4. Return of the Jedi
5. Revenge of the Sith
6. Rogue One
7. The Force Awakens
8. The Phantom Menace
9. Attack of the Clones

[TGM]

I know a lot of people here don't like Doug Walker, but I'm sharing this because I genuinely like their take. I like Doug's take on "rhyming versus repeating", plus it's one of the rare reviews I've come across so far where they really liked the movie, yet are actually able to acknowledge all of the film's faults and completely understand why so many wouldn't like it, as opposed to inventing bullshit reasons out of thin air, like I'm seeing so many doing elsewhere (not so much here though, we're being reasonably respectful here compared to elsewhere that I've seen this film being discussed):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifzH26fPP7g

[[ETM]]

See, that's exactly where many of us are - I liked the movie because of the good stuff, but I totally acknowledge the faults. I basically agree with everything Trans said to a degree, but the main difference is that for him it's most of the film, instead of something to mention in a short "Cons" section after the review.

It's also much more difficult to get across as a stance, which is why I haven't gone to RT to voice my opinion, and many, many disgruntled people have.

Sent from my Mi A1 using Tapatalk

[Dukefrukem]

:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifzH26fPP7g

I wish I could watch that video, cannot stand either of their voices; the stereotypical nerd to a T.

[Sycophant]

By the way, very glad to see Kurosawa Fan here again, regardless of present disagreements. You've been missed around here!

[Morris Schæffer]

Like the 2015 movie, a superior blockbuster. That's the short version.

Scattered thoughts straight from how I remember it hours ago, some definitely nitpicks:

- Felt slight dissapointment at how it just jumped right in with action action action. I preferred more buildup, like trusting the audience a bit more.
- The effortless charm of the originals was really missing this time. I don't think Finn and Poe really have it, the chemistry is sufficient, but modest at best.
- This movie is afraid to kill anyone off. When Finn was about to kill himself I actually felt something, like something this movie needed at that point...until he was saved by Asian girl I didn't care about for reasons that sounded godawfully corny and unearned. Yes, Laura Dern killed herself too, in a thrilling sequence, but to say I was emotionally touched is an overstatement.
- So Snoke is just an ugly dude filling in for Palpatine?
- Why didn't he sense Kylo was up to something when he, Kylo, was pivoting the light sabre? No logic, but done because it was cool.
- Force powers taken into overdrive. Leia being jettisoned into outer space, waking up and gliding towards the spaceship was kinda funny, Luke projecting himself onto a late-in-the-game battle a sorta cheap way to drag him into the game without leaving the confines of his island 'resort'.
- The Spaceship who looks like an ironing machine and then turns out to be one was perhaps the funniest bit in the movie.
- The porgs were indeed cute and funny because they weren't front and center.
- The callbacks to Return of the Jedi made me cringe a little, especially when Kylo and Ren are in the elevator on their way to Snoke and she says "I sense the conflict in you."
- So glad Domnhall Gleeson is gone. Terrible terrible character, his outbursts relentlessly unpersuasive. What happened to elderly English thesps populating the spaceship bridge with control and poise?
- It's kinda chill that Rey comes from nowhere and is no one and not related to any family we know, Kylo teasing her about her parentage seemed to be more about fooling the audience since what does it matter to Kylo that she's not related to anyone famous?
- So Kylo is the villain now? Not sure what to think of that since he's already been bested in the previous movie. By a girl.
- Speaking of Kylo, I thought he was redeeming himself, and I remember really liking that, and then he wasn't.
- Phasma was nothing more than a loose end that needed closing. She was such a non-character to begin with that I felt nothing when Finn beat her.
- The First order brings a mini Death Star to the battlefield, one that has to be dragged in agonizingly slow fashion to where it's supposed to go?!
- The Battle of Hoth looks and feels more real than the salt plains finale of Last jedi. That's a sobering thought although I liked the finale.
- benicio del Toro = wasted

I need to let some of these things stew for a few days.

[Dukefrukem]

Like the 2015 movie, a superior blockbuster. That's the short version.

Scattered thoughts straight from how I remember it hours ago, some definitely nitpicks:

-
- This movie is afraid to kill anyone off. When Finn was about to kill himself I actually felt something, like something this movie needed at that point...until he was saved by Asian girl I didn't care about for reasons that sounded godawfully corny and unearned. Yes, Laura Dern killed herself too, in a thrilling sequence, but to say I was emotionally touched is an overstatement.


I mean, they should be. You honestly thought Finn's character was developed enough for a suicide run?




[SPOILER]
- So Kylo is the villain now? Not sure what to think of that since he's already been bested in the previous movie. By a girl.
-
.

Weird comment btw.

[Sycophant]

I'm gonna be interested to see how the extremely volatile reaction of the film's immediate reception shakes out over time. I don't say that to say "you'll come around" to the naysayers at all. But given the incredible iconic status of this series, how it's viewed is going to change a lot with time and as the series continues to make itself. At the very least, at some point, I expect there'll be less Monday morning quarterbacking.

Watching these movies is such a layered, multiple experience. You're watching them not just with interest, but suspicion, expectations, hopes, fears, and a keen awareness of their place in an unfolding series and franchise. I like the movie--a lot--but this mixture of feelings while watching it makes it hard to offer anything like a verdict (and as I revisit more and more films from different phases of my life, I feel like I can say that final verdicts themselves are pretty elusive), and I know it's gonna take another viewing or two to sort things out. I can tell you it's sitting very well with me, but once the what's-going-to-happen? is replaced a by this-is-how-it-happens, I'll be able to talk more confidently about what the film does and what it does well.

[Sycophant]

For whatever reason, I am seeing a lot of these laundry lists of the movie's faults--almost entirely plot-driven--and as I go through them I'm like "No, that's fine. No, that's fine. No, that's fine."

I don't consider myself an ardent Star Wars defender. I didn't like Rogue One. I don't wanna get into a line-by-line battle over these things, since I'm sure it's gonna boil down to "This bothers me" and I'll be like "This doesn't bother me, and I think I actually like it." There were some moments of intended comedy that failed to land for me. But most everything else really doesn't register as objectionable to me.

The big one my wife and I disagreed on was Rose's line about protecting what they love and then her kiss. I like it. It's something I really like about the movie actually. There's no need for Finn to die. In fact, it's suggested that his attack may have ended up being fruitless anyway. It plays out some of the major themes of Star Wars often surrounding the different sides of the Force--what motivates the fight--in a small, interpersonal scale and I kind of love it. The framing's really good too, with what's going on in the background. (EDIT: Stopping a battle to state a theme pretty explicitly and having a conversation is something I may be conditioned by Gundam and other robot anime to love.)

Also, Rose is good.

[transmogrifier]

I'm gonna be interested to see how the extremely volatile reaction of the film's immediate reception shakes out over time. I don't say that to say "you'll come around" to the naysayers at all. But given the incredible iconic status of this series, how it's viewed is going to change a lot with time and as the series continues to make itself. At the very least, at some point, I expect there'll be less Monday morning quarterbacking.

Watching these movies is such a layered, multiple experience. You're watching them not just with interest, but suspicion, expectations, hopes, fears, and a keen awareness of their place in an unfolding series and franchise. I like the movie--a lot--but this mixture of feelings while watching it makes it hard to offer anything like a verdict (and as I revisit more and more films from different phases of my life, I feel like I can say that final verdicts themselves are pretty elusive), and I know it's gonna take another viewing or two to sort things out. I can tell you it's sitting very well with me, but once the what's-going-to-happen? is replaced a by this-is-how-it-happens, I'll be able to talk more confidently about what the film does and what it does well.

Well, I rewatched TFA and liked it less, and I can see it happening again with this one as well. It's just not a good film.

[Skitch]

I just want to say I appreciate the use of spoiler tags. As a Star Wars dork who absolutely cannot resist clicking this thread and who refuses to let my viewing be ruined by a sold out crowd.

[Dead & Messed Up]

For whatever reason, I am seeing a lot of these laundry lists of the movie's faults--almost entirely plot-driven--and as I go through them I'm like "No, that's fine. No, that's fine. No, that's fine."

I don't consider myself an ardent Star Wars defender. I didn't like Rogue One. I don't wanna get into a line-by-line battle over these things, since I'm sure it's gonna boil down to "This bothers me" and I'll be like "This doesn't bother me, and I think I actually like it." There were some moments of intended comedy that failed to land for me. But most everything else really doesn't register as objectionable to me.

The big one my wife and I disagreed on was Rose's line about protecting what they love and then her kiss. I like it. It's something I really like about the movie actually. There's no need for Finn to die. In fact, it's suggested that his attack may have ended up being fruitless anyway. It plays out some of the major themes of Star Wars often surrounding the different sides of the Force--what motivates the fight--in a small, interpersonal scale and I kind of love it. The framing's really good too, with what's going on in the background. (EDIT: Stopping a battle to state a theme pretty explicitly and having a conversation is something I may be conditioned by Gundam and other robot anime to love.)

Also, Rose is good.

Agreed that Finn didn't need to die, and his decision felt a little too snap, so I'm down with Rose stopping it; it especially makes sense after she's lost so much in the front of the movie, for her to hang onto him and say, "No, not today, this isn't the time." I liked Rose; didn't love her, but found her a nice counterweight to Finn.

Honestly, at this point, I'd rather watch it again than stake out any heavy territory. There's so much movie in the movie.

[Russ]

This is as much fun as I've had at a Star Wars film since standing in a long line for a couple of hours back in 1977. I stood in a long line for this one too. This gave me the same vibes I felt 40 years ago.

Flaws, shmaws. This film absolutely NAILED IT.

[Morris Schæffer]

I mean, they should be. You honestly thought Finn's character was developed enough for a suicide run?


He was a principal character and this franchise has on ocassion done away with those. It happened in 2015 if you recall. In addition, Finn comes from the enemy and throughout two movies it seems he's the one most determined to atone, to do whatever is necessary to fight back. Of all the characters, he's one of a few whom I thought was gonna have a redemptive arc later on. Alas, the actual outcome isn't as convincing as an actual succesful suicide run, which was, like you said yourself, itself not very convincing.

[Philip J. Fry]

Also, Rose is good.This Rose would've never let Jack die.

[Ezee E]

Read the thread.

When this movie has a high point, it really hits.

But when it has a low point, it's really bad.

Despite feeling long, it's also rushed at the same time. I feel like the whole movie could really hit if there just a few little edits made to the script.

Overall, I like that there's a trademark feel to it, and it's way better than anything Marvel.

My good and bad coming up.

[Ezee E]

WAIT:

One thing to point out that NOBODY has discussed.

ROYAL GUARDS IN ACTION. Is it just me, or have I waited since Return of the Jedi for this to happen? This is the highlight to me.

[Ezee E]

THE GOOD:
-The planets are all different and work. The Casino island needed way more time to it. I want to know everything about the place. Luke's planet feels remote, I like the use of "living off the land" even if it seems kind of weird for a kid-friendly movie... And the salt planet with the crystal wolves was fun to look at with the color schemes.

-Laura Dern... as an actress. She did a fantastic job.

-The Hyperspace Battle move. This really silenced the crowd and I did not expect that to happen.

-Imperial Royal Guards in action. Loved their weapons.

-Rey's dream session in the dark void was the right kind of 'dream' for this. Not really sure what to make of it, but sweet.

-The escape tactic by Skywalker. I actually thought this was happening, but really liked it as a tactic. Just wish their was a sense that it does 'hurt' the person to basically transport themselves.

[Ezee E]

THE BAD:
-Laura Dern's "secret" tactic makes no sense to keep secret unless she thought a spy was on board. She had great leadership skills, so it's not like she was new to this.

-Leia's "death and return" might be the biggest eye-roll moment of the whole trilogy. And I'm being rational here in that I hate almost everything (and remember next to nothing) about that Prequel Trilogy.

-The casino scenes are so rushed that it makes the whole thing kind of stupid. Everything about it, whether it's the Kanata appearance (was she in an actual fight or playing some game?), the racing aspect, the ridiculous search. The absolute worst is the timely placing of Benicio's character. Everything about the escape and what transpired with him is lazy, lazy, lazy... I was REALLY hoping Lando Calrissian would've been that guy. Maybe then, I'd have been surprised by his eventual turn, and boy how painful would that have been.

-Snoke simply died too easily and Kylo Ren is no super villain now. This trilogy is going to have a hard time with Episode IX I think. Hux is just annoying.

-I was onboard with the "suicide mission" until Rose took Finn out of the situation. Even her motto makes no sense considering Finn was doing EXACTLY that for many more people. Rose... wasted character to just have her die at that point.

-Chewbacca needs a reason to be around.

Hmm... outside of hating the pacing of the casino area, and the tactics of the Rebel Empire, I realize the flaws aren't so bad to me after all.

[Pop Trash]

What's weird to me is that most of the semi-professional critics I follow on Letterboxd have gone wild on this (comparatively), which I think goes to show how the critical mindset has shifted in this era, moving away from judging a film on its underlying craft (plotting, story, tone, rhythm, thematic unity) and focusing more on visuals, "moments", homages, self-referentiality, and genre deconstruction. I simply cannot understand otherwise how some of the most blatantly poor story decisions in this film (and there are many) can be summarily ignored or dismissed just because the throne room was red like in Kurosawa films (!) or Snoke was killed off unceremoniously as a reference to all the theories that were going around (double !!).

I'm sure I've said this to you before, but I don't think you fundamentally understand cinema (or at least how it differs from eg. a written story or even a performed play) at all.

[transmogrifier]

I'm sure I've said this to you before, but I don't think you fundamentally understand cinema (or at least how it differs from eg. a written story or even a performed play) at all.

Well, that's me done then I guess.

[TGM]

Would you mind spoiler tagging your posts, Ezee?

[Pop Trash]

Well, that's me done then I guess.

It's cool. You and Irish can compete for the most nonsensical opinions on here.

[Ezee E]

Would you mind spoiler tagging your posts, Ezee?

No probs.

[MadMan]

That was rad. I loved the porgs. DaMU, Wats and others mostly summed up how I feel, so here is my ranking of the Star Wars films:

1. ESB
2. ROTS
3. ANH
4. TLJ
5. TFA
6. R1
7. ROTJ
8. TPM
9. AOTC

[Morris Schæffer]

The day after. The "horseriding" on cantu is another thing that refuses to vacate my thoughts.

A visual touch during the finale doesn't either. When Kylo charges Luke, slices through him, out of sight I believe, and his foot glides in the sand and produces a long, red mark. That was amazing. That visual really made me believe Luke was a goner.

My ranking

1. The Empire Strikes Back
2. A New Hope
3. Return of the Jedi
4. Revenge of the Sith
5. The Force Awakens
6. The Last Jedi
7. Rogue One
8. The Phantom Menace
9. Attack of the Clones

There's no way any of these new movies are superior to any movie in the original trilogy and with each new SW movie, that feeling is reinforced.

Although I'm entirely unsure whether 5 comes indeed before 6.

@Madman: Props for putting ROTS at #2. It's rather too high a pedestal, but I'm quite enamoured with it myself.

[Skitch]

It's cool. You and Irish can compete for the most nonsensical opinions on here.

I'll take their reasoned disagreements over your pretentious horseshit any day.

[Dukefrukem]

If we all agreed on everything, this would be a really boring place.

Pop Trash you are out of line.

[Morris Schæffer]

If we all agreed on everything, this would be a really boring place.

I agree.:D

[Dukefrukem]

Someone noticed that Snoke has a ring on- that might explain Snoke's origin. I guess it has the four glyphs of the Dwartii- who were lawgivers back during the Old Republic.
Palpatine was a huge admirer of them as seen in the photos below. It could just be a coincidence given their history they were very well known politicians. Or it could mean that Snoke is Palaptine. Or it could point to Snoke being one of them.

There's a Visual Dictionary for Star Wars: The Last Jedi that was published that continues to reiterate that Snoke is not a Sith Lord. Which means he's not Palpatine. So Snoke's origin may very well be one of the Dwartii, specificly Braata, whom had been known study the dark side of the force. THis would make him over 1000 years old, and could explain his decrepit state.

Just some interesting tidbits based around cannon media.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/5/58/Philosophers_of_Dwartii.png/revision/latest?cb=20160420051730
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/ru.starwars/images/5/51/Two_dwartii_Palpatine_Anakin.j pg/revision/latest?cb=20131031105219

[Morris Schæffer]

What did Luke glimpse in the sun moments before he vanished into this air? There was a black dot there clearly visible.

[Peng]

Kinda in the middle ground of not loving everything from the OT and not disliking everything from the PT. The latter might be changed, however, since I watched all six about 10 years ago and the PT probably benefit from me still watching stuff in subtitles at the time, but I doubt ROTS will be dragged down much since I found it affecting on a story level then. Even the first two in the PT might never cross into full-on "hating" for me, since my first exposure to Star Wars is watching them all in Episode order, so I will never associate any sense of sacrilege with that trilogy.

1. The Empire Strikes Back 9.5/10
2. A New Hope 9/10
3. The Last Jedi 8.5/10
4. Revenge of the Sith 8/10
5. The Force Awakens 8/10
6. Rogue One 7.5/10
7. The Return of the Jedi 6.5-7/10
8. The Phantom Menace 6/10
9. Attack of the Clones 5.5-6/10

The placements of no. 3 and 4 are still not very sure; will need a rewatch of ROTS for that.

[Lazlo]

Love, love, loved this movie. Just knocked me flat with its emotion, visual touches, hard critique of the series' status quo, humor, and heart.

[Grouchy]

By the way, sort of morbid comment to make, but the producers sure bet their money on the wrong Skywalker.

[Milky Joe]

Haven't read any of the takes here yet, just saying this one thing:

God Bless Rian Johnson

[Pop Trash]

1. Return of the Jedi (suck it, haters)
2. A New Hope
3. The Empire Strikes Back
4. The Last Jedi
5. The Force Awakens
6. Revenge of the Sith
7. Rogue One
8. Attack of the Clones
9. The Phantom Menace

Mostly I pretend the prequels don't exist.

[D_Davis]

I'll let you all know what I think when this is available for free streaming.

[Dead & Messed Up]

I'd rank The Last Jedi somewhere around a restaurant turkey sandwich. The Force Awakens is sort of a marshmallow salad situation. Rogue One is re-heated green beans and mashed potatoes, but it tasted really good yesterday.

[D_Davis]

Oven roasted turkey with a peppered crust?

[Dukefrukem]

I'll let you all know what I think when this is available for free streaming.

Wow there are free streaming services available in Seattle?? Jealous!

[Dead & Messed Up]

Oven roasted turkey with a peppered crust?

Oven-roasted for sure, but maybe a more basic crust.

[Spinal]

Wow there are free streaming services available in Seattle?? Jealous!

https://www.hoopladigital.com/

Maybe he was talking about this?

[D_Davis]

He knew what I meant. Streaming that I don't have to rent - included free with Prime, or on Netflix.

[Scar]

I'd rank The Last Jedi somewhere around a restaurant turkey sandwich. The Force Awakens is sort of a marshmallow salad situation. Rogue One is re-heated green beans and mashed potatoes, but it tasted really good yesterday.

And Empire is a 30 day dry aged prime rated porterhouse?

[Dukefrukem]

And Return of the Jedi is the Filet mignon

[Ezee E]

****
A New Hope
Empire Strikes Back
Return of the Jedi

*** 1/2
Force Awakens

***
Rogue One
Last Jedi

** 1/2
Revenge of the Sith

*
Phantom Menace
Attack of the Clones

[Dead & Messed Up]

And Empire is a 30 day dry aged prime rated porterhouse?

Obviously.

[Neclord]

Man this is a hot potato of a Star Wars! I loved it, it has some weird shit in it though! I even enjoyed the porgs.

[MadMan]

.

@Madman: Props for putting ROTS at #2. It's rather too high a pedestal, but I'm quite enamoured with it myself.Thanks. I have seen the original trilogy and the prequels multiple times. I have viewed TFA twice. Since Netflix has Rogue One I will probably watch it again, and I will most likely see TLJ a second time, too.

[MadMan]

AOTC is still the only SW film I do not like, and yet I would still view it again, simply because it is SW. Rose was a welcome addition to the series.

[Dukefrukem]

Man, TFA was on HBO like every other day for a while. So that movie got a lot of replay for me. Each viewing decreased in quality until there was nothing left to look forward to.

[Dukefrukem]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9hwGZFPSmw

[Skitch]

Well, I finally saw it today. 10:45am showing nearly sold out.

I fucking loved it. Started texting with a friend who "had a couple reservations". By the time we were done (and I answered every one of his "why did they do that"'s, he had shifted to damn near hating it. Oh well.

[Milky Joe]

I am amazed at the divided reaction to this. Some people love it, others hate it. I personally can't fathom hating it.

[Dukefrukem]

I am amazed at the divided reaction to this. Some people love it, others hate it. I personally can't fathom hating it.

I can't either. It's the opposite of TFA as it's not a retread at all and Johnson basically undone all the stupid things JJ and his team implemented. It's doing something way different and for that I love it.

It's the Prometheus effect.

[Skitch]

I can't either. It's the opposite of TFA as it's not a retread at all and Johnson basically undone all the stupid things JJ and his team implemented. It's doing something way different and for that I love it.


Yes. Yes. Yes. YES. The more I think about this movie the more I like it...and the more depressed I am that JJ is back for 9.

[Dukefrukem]

Yes. Yes. Yes. YES. The more I think about this movie the more I like it...and the more depressed I am that JJ is back for 9.

What's worse is Johnson left absoutely nothing for us to look forward to in EPisode IX. Which means JJ's mind is going to go into Lost mode trying to fabricate some kind of drama.

I found this today and laughed.

Make the Last Jedi Non-Canon (https://www.change.org/p/the-walt-disney-company-make-the-last-jedi-non-canon)

[Skitch]

There was a part of me that thought he was going to go full on Galen Marek / Starkiller on all the AT-ATs.

I thought that too.

[Dukefrukem]

I thought that too.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkBiYpD3SDc

[Skitch]

What's worse is Johnson left absoutely nothing for us to look forward to in EPisode IX. Which means JJ's mind is going to go into Lost mode trying to fabricate some kind of drama.
[/URL]

I think theres plenty of stuff to look forward to, but JJ is going to pull his mystery box bullshit again is my guess.

I almost cheered when it was revealed Rey's parents were nobody. Thats what I wanted.

[Ezee E]

What's worse is Johnson left absoutely nothing for us to look forward to in EPisode IX. Which means JJ's mind is going to go into Lost mode trying to fabricate some kind of drama.

I found this today and laughed.

Make the Last Jedi Non-Canon (https://www.change.org/p/the-walt-disney-company-make-the-last-jedi-non-canon)

This is pretty much what I said. There's certainly no supervillain at this point.

[Skitch]

I listened to a couple of spoiler review podcasts on way home from theater.

Whether pro or con, just listening to them describe the "I'm still holding for Hux" scene had me laughing my ass off. I loved it.

Also there were about three times during this film where it nearly brought me to tears of feels.

[megladon8]

The petitions to make this movie non-canon are pretty much the epitome of everything that’s terrible about nerd culture.

[Weems]

The petitions to make this movie non-canon are pretty much the epitome of everything that’s terrible about nerd culture.

Because Rian Johnson is a nice guy and shouldn't have his feelings hurt despite making an unbelievably terrible movie? I think it's refreshing that people are calling out this movie's bullshit.

[TGM]

I mean, I find it pretty easy to already not consider the Disney movies canon anyways. They all feel like really poor fan-fiction.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Because Rian Johnson is a nice guy and shouldn't have his feelings hurt despite making an unbelievably terrible movie? I think it's refreshing that people are calling out this movie's bullshit.

Regardless of feelings on this movie, a petition like that carries all the meaning of a child throwing a tantrum after learning that sometimes the world gives you vegetables.

[Peng]

Johnson and Abrams feel so distinct from each other (and obviously, really contradictory even on a surface story choice basis) in their Episodes that I can't fathom one that still group them under one Disney/corporate dismiss, regardless of quality.

Also surprised to see even one defense for that worst-of-fanboy-culture petition here.

[Philip J. Fry]

Why Kylo Ren hates Luke...
https://scontent.fcjs1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/25498154_10103582482827497_676 094989874036961_n.jpg?oh=0a7d1 3c0615d18bbfa90856e6164c051&oe=5ACA5C7C

[Philip J. Fry]

Also surprised to see even one defense for that worst-of-fanboy-culture petition here.Yup. That shit's pretty classless.

[Morris Schæffer]

I can't either. It's the opposite of TFA as it's not a retread at all and Johnson basically undone all the stupid things JJ and his team implemented. It's doing something way different and for that I love it.

Are you sure? In some blatant ways this is Empire Strikes Back repurposed with a strong dose of Return of the Jedi during one major scene. I could never hate The Last Jedi, but at this point I wouldn't be surprised if the text crawl of Episode IX began with "The First Order has begun construction of an even more powerful weapon than starkiller base...."

[MadMan]

Johnson and Abrams feel so distinct from each other (and obviously, really contradictory even on a surface story choice basis) in their Episodes that I can't fathom one that still group them under one Disney/corporate dismiss, regardless of quality.I dig each of their films, for different reasons. I also agree with whoever said that Marvel seems to have a more consistent vision.


Also surprised to see even one defense for that worst-of-fanboy-culture petition here.I am not. There is always one guy or gal. Usually its a guy.

[MadMan]

Why Kylo Ren hates Luke...
https://scontent.fcjs1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/25498154_10103582482827497_676 094989874036961_n.jpg?oh=0a7d1 3c0615d18bbfa90856e6164c051&oe=5ACA5C7C

Gross, but funny.

[megladon8]

Because Rian Johnson is a nice guy and shouldn't have his feelings hurt despite making an unbelievably terrible movie? I think it's refreshing that people are calling out this movie's bullshit.

There’s nothing wrong with calling out a bad movie.

Petitioning to have it erased from canon because it didn’t do what you wanted / liked is silly, childish nonsense and the type of behaviour I’d expect from gamers.

[Dukefrukem]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=10&v=4thVCspAfK4

[Dukefrukem]

So I've been on Christmas Vaca, and I re-watched the OT Star Wars trilogy, and I discovered my favorite part of all 8 movies so far (10 movies if you want to include the other two canon ones), is in Return of the Jedi, when they are planning the ground mission. Han Solo will lead the team, and Chewie roars... "It's gonna be rough pal I didn't want to speak for you"- "That's one" - "General, count me in"... goes Leia.

And then out of the shadows: "I'm with you too!" - and right there, everyone is back together setting off on their final mission". It's my favorite moment in all 8 movies.

A close second is

"No, there is another" in Empire...

And the third is Binary Sunset from a new Hope. That 36 second moment is gold.

Thinking about all these moment made me want to start a 'Battle for the Best Star Wars moment' poll/game and see which one wins in the end.

[Ezee E]

i guess one good thing is I have NO idea what they'll do with Episode IX.


Finn has closure. Skywalker is dead. Poe just needs something to blow up.

I figure a Leia funeral at the beginning? :(

The only conflict left to resolve is Kylo Ren and Rey...

[Ezee E]

What moments did your crowds cheer on, by the way?

Mine had big applause for:
-End of Royal Guard fight
-Hyperspace Laura Dern Exit

I love a good non-Film Festival movie applause.

[Peng]

Apart from the Red Room, that shoulder brush absolutely had my crowd.

[Thirdmango]

I thought this was okay. I didn't love it, I didn't hate it. It was just a mere good.

The one scene in the movie I did not like at all though was the very final scene.

[Dukefrukem]

i guess one good thing is I have NO idea what they'll do with Episode IX.


Finn has closure. Skywalker is dead. Poe just needs something to blow up.

I figure a Leia funeral at the beginning? :(

The only conflict left to resolve is Kylo Ren and Rey...

Nah, they will handle her death in the opening crawl. And then have a line or two later on how much she meant to the Resistance.


Apart from the Red Room, that shoulder brush absolutely had my crowd.

This.

[Ezee E]

Nah, they will handle her death in the opening crawl. And then have a line or two later on how much she meant to the Resistance.



This.

That would really suck if that's how they handled a top character of the entire series.

[Sycophant]

I think Episode IX will do just fine without Snoke or some replacement big bad. Kylo Ren is the Supreme Leader now and that's good. The First Order is apparently in control of the galaxy, with an iconoclastic and unstable reformer at the head and who may only be maintaining the confidence of his underlings because of the personal threat he poses. The Resistance has been whittled down to less than 400 heads (though I'm sure the "hope" they inspire will make recruiting easy). There's an intense personal connection between Rey (a major figure and symbol in the Resistance) and Ren. Resistance is on the run. Last Order is going to continue pursuing them vigorously.


And that's just the Big Plot Shit. I don't see how everything's tied up so neatly that there's nowhere to go from here. The ending is somewhere between the closure of Episode IV and the open-ended downer of Episode V, and at any rate plenty of movies with far more closure can spawn coherent sequels. And while Abrams may tend towards throwing out of a bunch of mysteries he doesn't intend to think through, if we can really expect an ending to the trilogy, maybe that's not the biggest concern here. "Mystery box" is a problem, sure, but let's not make him such a meme that we flatten him out entirely.

And saying things like so-and-so's character arc is complete, there's nowhere left to go seems incredibly short-sighted. First of all, character growth and change is vastly overrated. Second, Finn's past. Neither episode so far has really dealt with the trauma of being raised a stormtrooper, and while maybe killing Phasma completes that circle... maybe it doesn't? Maybe murder-revenge isn't the answer to his place in the universe. Now he has two deep connections to two women he may have feelings for, and he's only in-universe a couple months at best from having a world with apparently no friends, no family, no nothing. The film may not go there. But there's a lot of potential. Characters can reveal new depths as they're serialized further or encounter new things that give them new narrative purpose. That's something that happens in movies sometimes. We're just getting to know Rose. Who knows what her role will be now? It could be really cool and important and unexpected.

Maybe someone new or a small player will be elevated and fleshed out and made important. Emperor Palpatine was briefly in Empire as a hologram, but only showed up as a real character (however thinly sketched) in Jedi. Just because we've known our entire lives the narrative arc of the Star Wars trilogy doesn't mean that on December 20, 2017 we need to know exactly how this trilogy ends.

Like, maybe look at it this way. A lot of people read Johnson's narrative choices regarding the dangling and mysterious threads from the previous episode as a rejection of Abrams's plot proclivities. I think he did a great job with his treatment. Might it not be best if he doesn't leave a whole lot for Abrams to have to clear up before getting to wherever this once and future team want to take it? Now Abrams and his writing team can chart the course they want on a very potent field that is relatively clear of obstacles.

[Dead & Messed Up]

What moments did your crowds cheer on, by the way?

Mine had big applause for:
-End of Royal Guard fight
-Hyperspace Laura Dern Exit

I love a good non-Film Festival movie applause.

That lil cameo did it for my crowd.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Might it not be best if he doesn't leave a whole lot for Abrams to have to clear up before getting to wherever this once and future team want to take it?

This is where I'm at. Johnson's cleared away a lot of dangling questions that could've boned the final act on a narrative level.

[Pop Trash]

I listened to a couple of spoiler review podcasts on way home from theater.

Whether pro or con, just listening to them describe the "I'm still holding for Hux" scene had me laughing my ass off. I loved it.



Which ones? I'm desperate for a good spoilery defense of all the crap the haters are bringing up.

[Pop Trash]

i guess one good thing is I have NO idea what they'll do with Episode IX.


Finn has closure. Skywalker is dead. Poe just needs something to blow up.

I figure a Leia funeral at the beginning? :(

The only conflict left to resolve is Kylo Ren and Rey...

I thought about that. It would be depressing but having a funeral for Leia would be like inverting and echoing the medal ceremony at the end of A New Hope. All the characters would be in one place, but for a sad moment of reflection rather than a fun ceremony. Weddings vs. Funerals etc.

[Grouchy]

I can't see them saying goodbye to Leia on text - a funeral scene sounds about right.

[Pop Trash]

This might be the first Star Wars movie that critics like more than Star Wars fans. It's like what A.I. is to Spielberg's filmography.

[Dead & Messed Up]

A.I. is a hot mess, don't @ me.

[Sycophant]

Also, can we stop with spoiler tags come Friday? I'm getting tired of hiding my paragraphs of excellent opinions and keen insights behind toggle-able red buttons. You need to see my walls of text in their full naked glory.

[Dukefrukem]

A.I. is a hot mess, don't @ me.

OMG thank you. Hate that movie.

[Sycophant]

Peeps, we're already trying to talk about all Star Wars movie past, present, and future in this thread. We can't do the A.I. discussion here.

[Grouchy]

Hahah love A.I. I think it's the best Spielberg film since Close Encounters.

[Pop Trash]

A.I. is a hot mess, don't @ me.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@@@@@*











*A.I. is one of the best movies of the 21st century

[Pop Trash]

Peeps, we're already trying to talk about all Star Wars movie past, present, and future in this thread. We can't do the A.I. discussion here.

I agree. ANYWAY my analogy still stands that usually critics and fanboys are on the same page about big tentpole blockbusters. Either they are both disappointed (like The Phantom Menace) or they are both down (E.T. or Raiders of the Lost Ark say) or fanboys are more down than critics (like the original '77 Star Wars for the most part).

[Dead & Messed Up]

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@@@@@*

*A.I. is one of the best movies of the 21st century

I could not have been clearer about the no @-ing.

Back to Last Jedi:

We should be more forgiving of the Holdo sections, because it's hard to hold conversations with your crew when you're charging your super-Saiyan lightspeed power for half of the film.

[Sycophant]

I agree. ANYWAY my analogy still stands that usually critics and fanboys are on the same page about big tentpole blockbusters. Either they are both disappointed (like The Phantom Menace) or they are both down (E.T. or Raiders of the Lost Ark say) or fanboys are more down than critics (like the original '77 Star Wars for the most part).

Oh yeah, bringing it in as a comparison makes total sense. Strong endorse there. And I can even say that without revealing how I feel about A.I.

[Sycophant]

We should be more forgiving of the Holdo sections, because it's hard to hold conversations with your crew when you're charging your super-Saiyan lightspeed power for half of the film.

Yeah. I doubt this is gonna be a long-standing gripe when people revisit this movie.

[Ezee E]

Yeah. I doubt this is gonna be a long-standing gripe when people revisit this movie.

Between her "plan" and the Casino planet, those are the main gripes I have. It comes up in every conversation I have with others in person, even if it isn't instigated by me.

Although I do appreciate the performance from Dern. Her one-on-one with Poe made me wish we saw her in that capacity more.

[Ezee E]

I think Episode IX will do just fine without Snoke or some replacement big bad. Kylo Ren is the Supreme Leader now and that's good. The First Order is apparently in control of the galaxy, with an iconoclastic and unstable reformer at the head and who may only be maintaining the confidence of his underlings because of the personal threat he poses. The Resistance has been whittled down to less than 400 heads (though I'm sure the "hope" they inspire will make recruiting easy). There's an intense personal connection between Rey (a major figure and symbol in the Resistance) and Ren. Resistance is on the run. Last Order is going to continue pursuing them vigorously.


And that's just the Big Plot Shit. I don't see how everything's tied up so neatly that there's nowhere to go from here. The ending is somewhere between the closure of Episode IV and the open-ended downer of Episode V, and at any rate plenty of movies with far more closure can spawn coherent sequels. And while Abrams may tend towards throwing out of a bunch of mysteries he doesn't intend to think through, if we can really expect an ending to the trilogy, maybe that's not the biggest concern here. "Mystery box" is a problem, sure, but let's not make him such a meme that we flatten him out entirely.

And saying things like so-and-so's character arc is complete, there's nowhere left to go seems incredibly short-sighted. First of all, character growth and change is vastly overrated. Second, Finn's past. Neither episode so far has really dealt with the trauma of being raised a stormtrooper, and while maybe killing Phasma completes that circle... maybe it doesn't? Maybe murder-revenge isn't the answer to his place in the universe. Now he has two deep connections to two women he may have feelings for, and he's only in-universe a couple months at best from having a world with apparently no friends, no family, no nothing. The film may not go there. But there's a lot of potential. Characters can reveal new depths as they're serialized further or encounter new things that give them new narrative purpose. That's something that happens in movies sometimes. We're just getting to know Rose. Who knows what her role will be now? It could be really cool and important and unexpected.

Maybe someone new or a small player will be elevated and fleshed out and made important. Emperor Palpatine was briefly in Empire as a hologram, but only showed up as a real character (however thinly sketched) in Jedi. Just because we've known our entire lives the narrative arc of the Star Wars trilogy doesn't mean that on December 20, 2017 we need to know exactly how this trilogy ends.

Like, maybe look at it this way. A lot of people read Johnson's narrative choices regarding the dangling and mysterious threads from the previous episode as a rejection of Abrams's plot proclivities. I think he did a great job with his treatment. Might it not be best if he doesn't leave a whole lot for Abrams to have to clear up before getting to wherever this once and future team want to take it? Now Abrams and his writing team can chart the course they want on a very potent field that is relatively clear of obstacles.

Good points there. One thing though.

Rose is dead, right? Not much left for her angle.

OPE, looked it up, I completely missed that she was dragged back and Bantha Tank'd. I hope there's no love triangle deal, but would like to see her finish her story.

[Sycophant]

Although I do appreciate the performance from Dern. Her one-on-one with Poe made me wish we saw her in that capacity more.

I'll agree that the movie could have used more Dern. That's true of most movies. That's true of movies Dern isn't even it.

[Yxklyx]

**** 1/2
Star Wars
The Empire Strikes Back

****
Return of the Jedi

*** 1/2
The Force Awakens

*
The Phantom Menace


"Return" has the silly Ewoks plus Darth Vader looks like Mr. Egghead - awful way to end his legacy, but the editing between the action scenes in the final third is outstanding.

[Skitch]

...but the editing between the action scenes in the final third is outstanding.

Its a highlight of the OT for me. Breathlessly cutting between three conflicts, flawlessly.

[Ivan Drago]

1. The Empire Strikes Back
2. A New Hope
3. Return of the Jedi
4. The Last Jedi
5. Rogue One
6. The Force Awakens
7. Revenge of the Sith
8. The Phantom Menace
9. Attack of the Clones

[Dead & Messed Up]

1. The Empire Strikes Back
2. A New Hope
3. Return of the Jedi
4. The Last Jedi
5. Rogue One
6. The Force Awakens
7. Revenge of the Sith
8. The Phantom Menace
9. Attack of the Clones

It turns out Ivan and I were twins this whole time.

[Ivan Drago]

I kept going back and forth about putting The Last Jedi above Return of the Jedi or not, but it's too early for me to put it above the OT...for now.


I could not have been clearer about the no @-ing.

Back to Last Jedi:

We should be more forgiving of the Holdo sections, because it's hard to hold conversations with your crew when you're charging your super-Saiyan lightspeed power for half of the film.

The payoff from that was awesome...

The shots of the ship blasting through the Star Destroyer from different were straight out of an anime. Absolutely beautiful.

[Ivan Drago]

Well, I finally saw it today. 10:45am showing nearly sold out.

I fucking loved it. Started texting with a friend who "had a couple reservations". By the time we were done (and I answered every one of his "why did they do that"'s, he had shifted to damn near hating it. Oh well.

Please tell me this wasn't...

Eugene. :(But if it is, the ensuing Movie Freaks episode should be a good one.

[Neclord]

Empire
ANH
RotJ
The Last Jedi
Rogue One
TPM
Sith
Clones



For now...

[TGM]

I kept going back and forth about putting The Last Jedi above Return of the Jedi or not, but it's too early for me to put it above the OT...

Meanwhile I'm still going back and forth as to whether to place it above The Phantom Menace or not. :p