Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Rian Johnson)

[megladon8]

Please explain to me where this fairly common conception comes from.

She is strong physically and headstrong but not yet wise. Love that we are given enough information about her physical prowess and ability to fight without it being spelled out. No one had to come out and say “she’s been alone on a hostile planet since childhood so she can fight!”

Her instant attraction to Han as a father figure, Kylo as a troubled brother relationship in TLJ. She’s constantly searching for family and trying to fill that void in her life while also seeing herself as the missing piece in others’ which works thematically with her line “I’m just searching for my place in all this”.

The hints at her having darkness inside her as well as light turn to a kid nature vs nurture discussion. Does that darkness stem from her (lack of) upbringing? Does she have a tendency towards the dark? If so, then her natural empathy towards others is actually her weakness that must be overcome.

And her natural ability with the force is totally in keeping with Star Wars tropes. Luke went from barely being able to move his lightsaber with the force to a near Jedi master over a long weekend, Leia had natural inclinations to the force in the OT with no training at all, Anakin was already powerful with the force before training with Obi Wan.

I can’t wait to see more Rey.

[Grouchy]

What you say about her surrogate family thing with Han/Kylo is interesting. Everything else strikes me as reading too much into a blank slate, particularly the "nature vs. nurture" thing.

Her development of Force powers remains specially ridiculous. The Force might have been strong with Anakin or Luke, but they required at least some guidance before using it to trick others into doing things. Her sudden skill with saber fighting is only as ridiculous as Finn's sudden skill inmediately afterwards.

I bet you can't name one characteristic or even bit of trivia about her personality that isn't just the usual features of a hero.

[Dukefrukem]

Not sure I understand this line: "Luke went from barely being able to move his lightsaber with the force to a near Jedi master over a long weekend"

[Dead & Messed Up]

I bet you can't name one characteristic or even bit of trivia about her personality that isn't just the usual features of a hero.

I get what you're saying, but isn't this a feature of archetype? Neo, conceptually and on the page, is boring as fuck, his character beats and choices are predictable, his dialogue is uninspired and basic. It's casting, the playing of the role, and the surrounding context that breathes life into the character.

[transmogrifier]

I don't really care about Rey one way or the other, seeing as she is ground up in the mess that is the film as a whole, but I do find Daisy Ridley to be wildly overpraised for her performance in this and TFA. She is borderline terrible in some scenes.

[Pop Trash]

She is borderline terrible in some scenes.

I mean, so was Mark Hamill, but that doesn't stop the OT from being awesome as fuck.

[Pop Trash]

Rey's backstory is a secret. That's why she's interesting.


Duke, your parents were filthy junk traders. Sold you off for drinking money. They're dead, in a pauper's grave in a Jakku desert. You had no place in this story. You come from nothing. You're nothing, but not to me. Join me.

[Skitch]

Guys, I shudder every time I remember that JJ is doing the next part.

[Spinal]

To the first, I say well, why not? We have seen Leia and Luke "communicating" with each other in the The Empire Strikes Back although it looked sillier in TLJ.

It's a really boring way to develop your characters. It speaks to the film's dull-headed literalness. How do I explore the tension between my protagonist and my villain? Well, how about if they just read each other's thoughts and bluntly explain to each other what they have planned? And visually, he did absolutely nothing with it.

[Spinal]

One thing that surprises me about the majority's reaction to both movies is how Rey was embraced as a protagonist while Jyn is rarely championed.

For me Rey is one of the sketchiest, most poorly written leading characters of all time, while every character in Rogue One was at least interesting.

And Felicity Jones is a much better actress.

[D_Davis]

Rogue One is probably the only Star Wars movie made since 1983 that's worth a damn.

It's barely worth a damn.

[Spinal]

It's barely worth a damn.

I mean, I wouldn't say it's worth a dayum.

[Dead & Messed Up]

I mean, I wouldn't say it's worth a dayum.

Rogue One gets two and a half dayums out of a possible four whaaaaats.

[Winston*]

Rogue One is very good.

[[ETM]]

And you don't feel that way about Rey? At least Jyn has a backstory and a motivation for doing what she does.

Yes, we are told her backstory and we're told she has a motivation. I might as well have read her performance in a book.

[Pop Trash]

It's a really boring way to develop your characters. It speaks to the film's dull-headed literalness. How do I explore the tension between my protagonist and my villain? Well, how about if they just read each other's thoughts and bluntly explain to each other what they have planned? And visually, he did absolutely nothing with it.

You're telling me you've never had vaguely flirtatious, sexually tense conversations with your arch-nemesis through space and time?

[Dead & Messed Up]

I liked that he did nothing visually with the Force Skyping. Or, rather, that it was just editing and suggestion. That was super-fun to me. I love lo-fi approaches to high-concept ideas.

[Dukefrukem]

If you guys thought Rouge One is bad, just wait until Solo.

[megladon8]

I didn’t think Rogue One was bad. Just competent, in the most boring ways. The Vader scene is one of the best scenes in the whole saga, and since it happens at the end I think it tainted my original viewing to feel more positive than it actually was.

Rogue One could almost be one of our “movies that exist”.

[Dukefrukem]

Enough with the hyperboles!

Hate it with all your might, but fuck.

[megladon8]

Think I stated pretty clearly that I don’t hate it.

[[ETM]]

I don't get the love for the Vader scene either. Maybe I was too numbed by the realization that they're literally connecting it directly to ANH to care.

[megladon8]

;588137']I don't get the love for the Vader scene either. Maybe I was too numbed by the realization that they're literally connecting it directly to ANH to care.

I can see what you mean for sure, but I guess I was kind of expecting a boatload of connections to ANH already. I think the use of Tarkin was much more cringe-worthy.

I just loved seeing Vader totally merc some fools for once.

[Skitch]

Enough with the hyperboles!

Hate it with all your might, but fuck.

What with your hard on for meg lately?

[Peng]

I think one of my first thoughts after Rogue One is it's funny that the infamous reshoot resulted in one of, if not the, best things about the film. The ending is not only pleasing in a fan-service way, but it's also just so organically and thematically appropriate and fitting, like the essence of the film, the message of the past 2 hours, distilled into one scene. Meant to rewatch it one of these days because actually the whole last third is so much superior that it might help with the underwhelming stuff that comes before.

[Pop Trash]

I liked that he did nothing visually with the Force Skyping. Or, rather, that it was just editing and suggestion. That was super-fun to me. I love lo-fi approaches to high-concept ideas.

This. I think adding a layer of CGI mumbo jumbo might have made it more cheesy.

[Pop Trash]

I think one of my first thoughts after Rogue One is it's funny that the infamous reshoot resulted in one of, if not the, best things about the film. The ending is not only pleasing in a fan-service way, but it's also just so organically and thematically appropriate and fitting, like the essence of the film, the message of the past 2 hours, distilled into one scene. Meant to rewatch it one of these days because actually the whole last third is so much superior that it might help with the underwhelming stuff that comes before.

Yes, but then they wreck the whole thing with a close-up of CGI Leia face at the last second.

[Milky Joe]

Yeah, the CGI used on Fisher in TLJ was tasteful, affecting, emotionally and thematically resonant. The CGI Fisher in R1 was just creepy.

[Spinal]

II love lo-fi approaches to high-concept ideas.

This is a very generous response to a very silly scene.

[Dead & Messed Up]

This is a very generous response to a very silly scene.

Technically, series of scenes. ;)

[Spinal]

I didn’t think Rogue One was bad. Just competent, in the most boring ways. The Vader scene is one of the best scenes in the whole saga, and since it happens at the end I think it tainted my original viewing to feel more positive than it actually was.

Rogue One could almost be one of our “movies that exist”.

What makes the film memorable for me is that final, dreadful destruction of the rebel base, along with our highly charismatic heroine. (Is the charisma more to do with Felicity Jones than the writing? Possibly.) The Vader scene is fun, but it's not the thing that sticks with me. The Leia CGI is imperfect, but I don't much care. That sacrifice is one of the most poignant things in the series for me and is a worthy effort to try to deepen the emotional resonance of the groundbreaking original.

[Scar]

;588137']I don't get the love for the Vader scene either. Maybe I was too numbed by the realization that they're literally connecting it directly to ANH to care.

Easy for me. Even as a kid, I was more of a Vader fan than a Star Wars fan. That was the scene I had been waiting forty years for.

When I had copies of the movies on VHS, I’d almost exclusively watch the Vader scenes, (and the ROTJ space battle).

[Grouchy]

I get what you're saying, but isn't this a feature of archetype? Neo, conceptually and on the page, is boring as fuck, his character beats and choices are predictable, his dialogue is uninspired and basic. It's casting, the playing of the role, and the surrounding context that breathes life into the character.
This is actually a pretty good argument. I think that Neo has enough proper characters surrounding him that it doesn't make me hate him as much.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Yeah, the CGI used on Fisher in TLJ was tasteful, affecting, emotionally and thematically resonant. The CGI Fisher in R1 was just creepy.

The CGI Fisher made me want to track down and destroy all computers, everywhere.

[Dukefrukem]

What with your hard on for meg lately?

Aside from antiAmerican, contradictory posting? Nothing. He's great.

[D_Davis]

The problem with post Return of the Jedi Star Wars is that there hasn't been a single, lasting villain worth a damn, and thus there is no dramatic drive or any real heroic tension. With Rogue One, the main villain was some white dude in a white suit. I forgot his name 5 minutes after the film ended. The original series is good because of Vader's presence, and he's not even in the films much at all! But his screen time is used to great effect, as his relationship with the heroes.

[Mysterious Dude]

I liked Rogue One's villain! He represents the banality of evil -- he's more interested in advancing his own career than in the ideology of the Empire. I think he's a nice alternative to the usual mustache twirlers.

I admit, however, that I, too, have forgotten his name. I never was good with names.

[[ETM]]

Easy for me. Even as a kid, I was more of a Vader fan than a Star Wars fan. That was the scene I had been waiting forty years for.

When I had copies of the movies on VHS, I’d almost exclusively watch the Vader scenes, (and the ROTJ space battle).

That's what I always assume when people say how much they loved it. I would never ever root for or identify with the "bad guys", as a kid and now. It doesn't help that the whole Jedi/Sith mythos is so easily deconstructed once you think about it for a split second. It all only works if you don't really think about anything.

[megladon8]

You never root for or identity with bad guys? They’re often the most identifiable characters in a story.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Empathize with? Sure. Root for? Not really.

I feel like once I want the villain to win, either the "villain" is really an antihero... or the rest of the movie is terrible.

Sidebar: Kylo Ren is on track to becoming my favorite Wars villain ever.

[Pop Trash]

The problem with post Return of the Jedi Star Wars is that there hasn't been a single, lasting villain worth a damn, and thus there is no dramatic drive or any real heroic tension. With Rogue One, the main villain was some white dude in a white suit. I forgot his name 5 minutes after the film ended. The original series is good because of Vader's presence, and he's not even in the films much at all! But his screen time is used to great effect, as his relationship with the heroes.

I think Kylo in TLJ (not so much in TFA) is extremely interesting and Adam Driver's performance is really nice. That they keep hinting he will turn to the light side of the force makes it even more intriguing.

[Ezee E]

I think Kylo in TLJ (not so much in TFA) is extremely interesting and Adam Driver's performance is really nice. That they keep hinting he will turn to the light side of the force makes it even more intriguing.

Saving Rey at the end, and a happy ending to the trilogy.

[Grouchy]

I often find myself empathizing with / rooting for bad guys when their motivations are relatable. The most recent example is the Vulture in Spiderman: Homecoming.

[Spinal]

I think Adam Driver is giving an excellent performance in these movies.

I do not, however, find the whole light/dark fluctuation in his character to be a very compelling dramatic element.

[Winston*]

I liked Rogue One's villain! He represents the banality of evil -- he's more interested in advancing his own career than in the ideology of the Empire. I think he's a nice alternative to the usual mustache twirlers.

I admit, however, that I, too, have forgotten his name. I never was good with names.

Yeah, he was great. The harried middle manager of the Death Star project. Probably wakes up an hour early each morning so he can iron that dumb cape.

[transmogrifier]

I do not, however, find the whole light/dark fluctuation in his character to be a very compelling dramatic element.

You're right, it comes across as very arbitrary in order to try and generate some character shading is a story that is all lost at sea. It doesn't help that his original "turn" against Luke/the Jedi has been lazily presented as a single scene in a hut retold three ways for no real reason except to try and drag out some drama and to boost its cinematic cred by referencing Kurosawa some more.

[Spinal]

Force Awakens: Kylo Ren is so evil he'll kill his father in cold blood. You know, Han freaking Solo!
Me: Oh, well, that's pretty damn evil.

Last Jedi: Kylo Ren is evil!
Me: He sure is!
Last Jedi: But what made him that way?
Me: Uh ... don't care.
Last Jedi: Where did he go wrong? Was it his training with Luke?
Me: I feel like we're blaming the victims here.
Last Jedi: Deep within, is there good in him worth saving?
Me: Pretty sure there's not ...
Last Jedi: KYLO REN IS EVIL!!!!!!!!!!!
Me: Oh, look at that.
Last Jedi: Man, you should see your face.
Me: .......
Last Jedi: But maybe ................
Me: I hate you.

[Dukefrukem]

You honestly don't care that he's evil for no rational reason? This is part of the reason why that line in TFA was so terrible: "I will finish, what you started". Vadar was dead long before Kylo was even born.

Raise your hand if you hate your father. Now raise your hand if you hate your father and would like murder him and all of his family and friends. See a difference?

[transmogrifier]

The SNL Kylo Ren is more interesting than the real thing.

[Spinal]

You honestly don't care that he's evil for no rational reason?

They did 3 whole movies about why Darth Vader is evil. It did nothing to improve my experience of that character or the overall story.

[Dead & Messed Up]

The SNL Kylo Ren is more interesting than the real thing.

Also I heard he has an eight-pack.

[Sycophant]

The trilogy of movies explaining why Vader was evil actually did a very poor job of explaining why Vader was evil. I don't think such an explanation was necessary, considering he works well enough (to put it mildly) in the original trilogy. But if it was going to be done, it could've actually tried mounting an interesting and compelling argument.

[Dukefrukem]

They did 3 whole movies about why Darth Vader is evil. It did nothing to improve my experience of that character or the overall story.

That's all fine. I could argue the opposite. I actually had your post above in my original question to you, but I removed it because I wanted to see what your reason would be.

Vadar was introduced differently with no lore or background to pull from. Putting Kylo in context with the Universe, him being evil doesn't make any sense. Or makes little sense in comparison to Vadar. That's to say in Episode X, we are going to get ANOTHER antagonist, with an empire, and right hand general and emperor, and we are going to get seriously bored with this franchise.

[Dukefrukem]

The trilogy of movies explaining why Vader was evil actually did a very poor job of explaining why Vader was evil. I don't think such an explanation was necessary, considering he works well enough (to put it mildly) in the original trilogy. But if it was going to be done, it could've actually tried mounting an interesting and compelling argument.

There's also no clear villain in Episode One. They couldn't make Anakan the villain due to his age, so they pulled one out of thin air. Darth Maul is more interesting than Kylo. Explain that one.

[Grouchy]

Damn, you're right about that. He had no lines, no motivations, no backstory, no anything... he was ten times the villain Kylo is.

[Sycophant]

There's also no clear villain in Episode One. They couldn't make Anakan the villain due to his age, so they pulled one out of thin air. Darth Maul is more interesting than Kylo. Explain that one.


Easy. Darth Maul is about as uninteresting a villain as you can get.

Actually, scratch the "easy" part of my response. It's difficult. The premise is flawed. I think Kylo Ren in both VII and VIII is far more interesting than Darth Maul. (Secret: I really like Kylo Ren as an antagonist.)

[Grouchy]

I don't really care for Kylo. If there is a sound reason why he became evil, they are still hiding it pretty well. Otherwise, the fact that he turned against Leia and Han is shocking just for the sake of it.

Also the fact that he's feeble and pathetic instead of menacing is curious to say the least but I don't know if it's working pretty well. His sidekicks Captain Phasma and General Hux have become comic relief already.

[Sycophant]

Darth Maul is a striking bit of concept art that steps in front of a green screen to fill the role of someone the protagonists can lock lightsabers with.

[Grouchy]

Yeah, I know that. That's why it surprises me to find myself in agreement with what Duke said - still a more compelling antagonist than Kylo. Maybe it's just the mystery.

[Dead & Messed Up]

I cannot get on board with anyone calling Maul a better villain than Kylo. Maul is Dullsville. He's a snarling biker tattoo backed by overcompensating Wagnerian yowls.

[Sycophant]

On the series' universe's terms, we're told several times that in comparison to the light side, the dark side feels like a shortcut to power and strength. It's something one is seduced by.

Kylo Ren's story, as roughly sketched as it is, works for me. His grandfather is Darth Vader, and initially that's a legacy he resorts to as aspirational in the wake of an adolescence in which the legacy of Luke and Leia, his uncle and mother, appears to him hollow and false (I know that moment of Luke's temptation to cut him down doesn't work for a lot of people, but if you accept it, it makes a certain kind of sense). He believes he has a right to wield power in this way, inherited from his ancestor and made manifest in his natural Force abilities. There's a disillusionment with his trajectory that occurs when he realizes he's been set up not as a but as a pawn in Snoke's plan--a Darth Maul, not a Palpatine. The dark side itself, he sees, is as full of untrustworthy actors as the light side he's already rejected, leading him to want to wield the power independent of past institutions (while able to leverage the inheritance of the present First Order institution). It is, in truth, something Star Wars has never done in its antagonists. It attempts to shade and add texture to the light-dark duality that has underpinned the series' conflicts up to this point. Kylo Ren has committed acts of tremendous evil both personally and by his alignment with even greater evil--his introduction in VII is as ruthlessly evil as I could want for in a villain--but the fact that he is not wholly, thoroughly committed to evil is more interesting to me than a pure evil cypher (EDIT: By this I mean Darth Maul, whose "mystery" reads to me more like "emptiness," and not Darth Vader whose motivations aren't explicated and don't require explication but who, through his interactions with Leia and other Empire officers, has a fascinating and compelling texture to his characterization beyond just being bad). An angry and frustrated and somewhat lost young man who nevertheless projects and image of strength and power is a volatile new element. I like this volatility.

Not that I can convince you to like Kylo Ren and find him interesting. I just want to voice why I do and attest that it can be reasoned out a bit (and I can already see an oversimplification in my timeline wrt Ren's realizations and progression, though I don't think it hurts my points).

[Grouchy]

Well, that's a very articulate post and it does sort of explain why he'd turn dark in spite of (or because of) his upbringing. Still, the fact that he's still a child prone to temper tantrums and who's constantly ridiculed by the heroes is... an unusual choice for a main antagonist.

The third movie will make or break him as a character.

[Skitch]

There's also no clear villain in Episode One. They couldn't make Anakan the villain due to his age, so they pulled one out of thin air. Darth Maul is more interesting than Kylo. Explain that one.

You guys are really getting crazy now. Youre complaining Kylo isn't interesting because you don't know why he went evil, then jump to the reason Maul rules is he has no backstory?

That kind of take almost gives me whiplash.

[Spinal]

What I would like is some backstory as to why Hux talks like a Roman emperor crossed with Herbert Beerbohm Tree.

[Sycophant]

What I would like is some backstory as to why Hux talks like a Roman emperor crossed with Herbert Beerbohm Tree.

This “Star Wars Story” will be the fall 2043 release starring a CG-de-aged Gleason.

[DavidSeven]

Kylo Ren is a great character. From an acting standpoint, Driver is the best thing the new series has going.

I don't need to know more about him. Like Vader, you only destroy the myth by tethering his motivations to personal drama. That's hack.

The suggestion that he has succumbed to the seduction of absolute power is enough. You get layers from the competing notion that he has deluded himself into believing he can create a "greater good" by implementing total rule and "disarming" all other untrustworthy actors (stealing from Sycophant) who can wield the Force.

That's how the world works. I don't need to know more about the childhoods of current world leaders to understand why they do what they do. What is "evil" in the global sense but a function of absolute power and opportunity?

[megladon8]

Yeah Darth Maul is pretty damn lame (at least in episode 1 - the comics and TV shows made him compelling). He was a neat visual with nothing behind him.

The prequel trilogy did nothing to clearly define what made Anakin turn so evil. None of the events shown in those three films cohesively lead to the Vader we see in the OT.

[Skitch]

The prequel trilogy did nothing to clearly define what made Anakin turn so evil. None of the events shown in those three films cohesively lead to the Vader we see in the OT.

Hmm. I would say I understood why he turned so evil in spite of flaws of those films. On paper, it makes sense. On film, with bad acting, and questionable direction, and downright shitty pacing of the character arcs (over the three films), I totally understand your feelings.

[megladon8]

Hmm. I would say I understood why he turned so evil in spite of flaws of those films. On paper, it makes sense. On film, with bad acting, and questionable direction, and downright shitty pacing of the character arcs (over the three films), I totally understand your feelings.

Yes which is what we’re dealing with - 3 terribly written, directed and acted movies. I *get* why he turned...but the movies did a godawful job of showing it.

BTW anyone who wants an awesome Vader story and an awesome Maul story should check out the comic “Resurrection”. Freaking awesome stuff.

[Skitch]

Yes which is what we’re dealing with - 3 terribly written, directed and acted movies. I *get* why he turned...but the movies did a godawful job of showing it.


Cant rep it so I'll just say, yep, can't disagree with that at all. The word I keep coming back to with Anakin (and subsequently Kylo which is why its hard for me to see him as anything but following a pattern of behavior) is "petulant".

[Dead & Messed Up]

The problem with the Prequels, to me, is that they give Anakin too many motivations. Sure, "I want to save my wife from certain death," loud and clear, but there's also the added issue of distrusting the Jedi, and a weird sort of political context, too, where Anakin is eager to discuss "my new Empire" and seeing through "the lies of the Jedi" seconds after choking his wife. That Empire state of mind (I'm sorry) may all be a shallow pretext to convince himself this isn't all about his wife, but the film goofs itself up when Anakin/Obi's final moments are about secret Jedi plots and points-of-view instead of a much simpler and more effective and tragic "I had to save her."

Sidebar: When Anakin's screaming "You will not take her from me," that's the closest the film gets to fusing those two motivators together into something elegant. What if the Jedi actually did try to separate the two, fearing Anakin was getting too volatile? And what if they actually spur his heel-turn in their efforts to save him? What if they fail to realize that the problem is equally theirs for not paying attention to his needs as a human being because they've been too busy propping him up as a messiah?

[People like Jonathan McIntosh of Pop Culture Detective (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUPD1w78D5I) think that Lucas didn't intend to portray the Jedi as stuffy, out-of-touch, and dangerously stoic, and that may be, but I find it hard to believe we aren't meant to be a little bewildered by the Jedi's complete inability to be useful in all three films and at times actively harm Anakin's development (the most thudding example is, "O, sorry, can't save ur mom too lol").]

[Also, that's an excellent video I linked to; P.C.D. is one of the few movie essayists worth a damn.]

One of the intriguing elements of The Last Jedi, to me, is that Kylo Ren finds a unique journey that takes him to roughly the same place as his grandfather - where he thinks that ultimate power is the only way to manage his grief and shame and terror. And it's cool that after all his intentional Vader dress-up of Awakens, he comes by this parallel organically in Jedi. He's finally broken free of Snoke, but he's still so consumed by his emotional turbulence that his only solution is to try and control literally everything, because he still can't come to terms with his inner chaos. Psychological projection on a galactic scale.

[Dukefrukem]

I cannot get on board with anyone calling Maul a better villain than Kylo. Maul is Dullsville. He's a snarling biker tattoo backed by overcompensating Wagnerian yowls.

And Kylo is a whiny little emo brat with an unoriginal persona. I mean, we could do this all day.

[Peng]

Gonna need some supporting evidence on "unoriginal" (the last page or so has already provided ones for the opposite; I mean, if we're gonna do this all day), because I can't quite remember the last villain in a tentpole film that is allowed this much unusual, pent-up neurosis (among other stuff people have mentioned above) and Driver's performance deepens the character greatly.

[Dukefrukem]

Gonna need some supporting evidence on "unoriginal" (the last page or so has already provided ones for the opposite; I mean, if we're gonna do this all day), because I can't quite remember the last villain in a tentpole film that is allowed this much unusual, pent-up neurosis (among other stuff people have mentioned above) and Driver's performance deepens the character greatly.

..... I mean, he was introduced as Darth Vadar Prime and his motives are the same. If it wasn't for Johnson, he would have never rid himself of the mask. I'll give you half way through TLJ things become more complicated, but what is his end game really? To team up with Rey to rule the galaxy? That's the exact sales pitch Vadar gave Luke in Empire. "Join me and together we will rule the Galaxy as father and son"

[transmogrifier]

Gonna need some supporting evidence on "unoriginal" (the last page or so has already provided ones for the opposite; I mean, if we're gonna do this all day), because I can't quite remember the last villain in a tentpole film that is allowed this much unusual, pent-up neurosis (among other stuff people have mentioned above) and Driver's performance deepens the character greatly.

His neurosis is booorrring though. “I’m evil. I’m sad. No, I’m evil. Am I evil? Rey is hot, isn’t she? We’d be an awesome power couple. Oh, Rey sucks! Fuck the world.” It literally gets no deeper than that. None of his motivations are rooted in anything except second-hand made-up lore.

[Ezee E]

Darth Maul is a fantastic concept that was dully written and horribly executed. I was so disappointed that the movie didn't meet my mind's eye of his 3-second trailer piece.

I think Kylo Ren works great, and is executed well UNTIL we get to know him more. Then he comes across as whiny to me. Should've kept the mask on.

[Dukefrukem]

1:35- how many arms does she have?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=95&v=HjoJqZDjxgI

[Scar]

....
....
....

It was better on a rewatch. No longer a nay.

[Skitch]

I've watched the clip three times and I don't understand the question. 2?

[Dukefrukem]

Honestly I only posted it for the deleted scene. I didn't watch the rest of the video.

[Dukefrukem]

Shouldn't have been cut

973191746589896705

[Milky Joe]

The bonus documentaries on the release are so good. The Director and the Jedi is probably the best documentary ever produced about the making of a massive blockbuster. You get a feel for how incredibly ambitious it actually was. The animatronics and puppeteer work and commitment to combining practical effects with location sets and top notch CG was truly astonishing and admirable.

Watching Serkis's raw performance (a great bonus feature) gave me new appreciation for what he does. There's a reason he's like the only guy in that game.

It's sad to see how much intense love, thought, and labour went into this production only to have so many people shit on it. It's the best Star Wars movie, period. I cannot wait for RJ's trilogy, to see what he'll do when he isn't saddled with that weakass shit JJ gave him to work with.

[transmogrifier]

It's sad to see how much intense love, thought, and labour went into this production only to have so many people shit on it.

Many of the films you (and anyone else) shit on also had a lot of thought and love behind them. It means nothing when it comes to judging a film.

[Spinal]

I'd rather shed a tear for the filmmakers who can't get their movies seen by anyone because shitty Disney movies are taking up all the screens.

[transmogrifier]

I'd rather shed a tear for the filmmakers who can't get their movies seen by anyone because shitty Disney movies are taking up all the screens.

Ain't that the truth. Such a silly film this is.

[Dead & Messed Up]

I'd rather shed a tear for the filmmakers who can't get their movies seen by anyone because shitty Disney movies are taking up all the screens.

Don't cry for them, they're already dead. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xn3hcNHLVP0)

[Sycophant]

I like the Last Jedi. I whole heck of a lot. But probably most movies are labors of love for a lot of people involved in them, so that's a really weak defense.

[Milky Joe]

Staying strictly within the realm of Hollywood blockbusters, no, I don't think so.

I should add, because I wrote that post quickly on a phone at 3am, that with the 'labor of love' comment I was actually referring specifically to the Canto Bight scene—the scene that everyone claims, laughably, should have been cut—not the movie as a whole. I would hate to be the prosthetic workers and actors and makeup and animatronics who did unbelievably great work bringing that scene to fruition, only for a bunch of nerds to say it shouldn't exist or that it ruined their childhoods or whatever other nonsense people say.

[Sycophant]

I'm not saying there aren't some people in Hollywood who just want to put in a day's work to get a check and go home, or execs or people in creative positions that think really cynically about their product, but I also think a lot of people working on prosthetics or CGI or lighting or set design or cinematography or whatever on even universally-understood-as-bad movies try to bring the best they have to their craft and some really believe in the projects they're working on.

(Also, I like the Canto Bight sequence a lot.)

[DavidSeven]

"How dare you criticize this movie that so many dedicated and talented people in animatronics, CGI and puppeteering contributed to? Now allow me to shit on this JJ Abrams movie that used a whole bunch of the same people! Clearly, they tried harder the second time!"

[Milky Joe]

"How dare you criticize this movie that so many dedicated and talented people in animatronics, CGI and puppeteering contributed to? Now allow me to shit on this JJ Abrams movie that used a whole bunch of the same people! Clearly, they tried harder the second time!"

Well, they clearly had much better direction anyway.

[Scar]

Shouldn't have been cut

973191746589896705

Nice. Tom Hardy as a storm trooper. Decent tension too with a good pay off.

[Ezee E]

"How dare you criticize this movie that so many dedicated and talented people in animatronics, CGI and puppeteering contributed to? Now allow me to shit on this JJ Abrams movie that used a whole bunch of the same people! Clearly, they tried harder the second time!"

lol

[Watashi]

I'd rather shed a tear for the filmmakers who can't get their movies seen by anyone because shitty Disney movies are taking up all the screens.

Yes, Disney is cockblocking filmmakers. No one can ever make a movie because of Disney.

Jesus Christ, you people sometimes.

[transmogrifier]

I should add, because I wrote that post quickly on a phone at 3am, that with the 'labor of love' comment I was actually referring specifically to the Canto Bight scene—the scene that everyone claims, laughably, should have been cut—not the movie as a whole. I would hate to be the prosthetic workers and actors and makeup and animatronics who did unbelievably great work bringing that scene to fruition, only for a bunch of nerds to say it shouldn't exist or that it ruined their childhoods or whatever other nonsense people say.

To me, this line of thinking makes absolutely no sense as a way to discuss a film and is more in line with fanboy deification (only in your case, your fanboyism is with the "magic" of the film-making process itself) than what the "bunch of nerds" you try to paint people who don't like the movie as profess. At least in their case, they are concerned with the consistency of the textual elements of the saga (like character, for instance), not whether some guy who got paid real well was able to see his work up on the screen. I mean, if they are torn apart by the prospect of certain scenes they worked hard on not being in a movie, then probably working on a movie set is not for them, no?

[Grouchy]

Yes, Disney is cockblocking filmmakers. No one can ever make a movie because of Disney.

Jesus Christ, you people sometimes.
Dude, the problem of screens is real. Remember what happened when Hateful Eight and Force Awakens opened at the same time?

[Spinal]

Relevant to the Disney/Star Wars discussion:

Nation Reaffirms Commitment to Things They Recognize (https://www.theonion.com/nation-reaffirms-commitment-to-things-they-recognize-1819578733)

[Milky Joe]

At least in their case, they are concerned with the consistency of the textual elements of the saga (like character, for instance)

What, do you think I'm not concerned with that as well? A brief post on one aspect of the film that seemed newly important to me after watching the behind-the-scenes stuff (essentially, the best & most artful cinematic special effects I have ever seen, waaaay better than TFA or the prequels (fucking LOL), even if they were the essentially same people) does not represent the entirety of my feelings toward the film—just the one aspect.

As it happens, I am absolutely concerned with "the consistency of the textual elements of the saga (like character)" more than anything, & in that regard 'they' (basement nerds and the 'too-cool-by-half') are utterly, spectacularly wrong. "Ruin Johnson" fucking nailed it.

[Dead & Messed Up]

I'm not saying there aren't some people in Hollywood who just want to put in a day's work to get a check and go home, or execs or people in creative positions that think really cynically about their product, but I also think a lot of people working on prosthetics or CGI or lighting or set design or cinematography or whatever on even universally-understood-as-bad movies try to bring the best they have to their craft and some really believe in the projects they're working on.

For whatever my anecdotal evidence is worth, no production I've ever been on was dominantly composed of cynical people. It is so difficult to break into the business, to make the connections, to develop your skills, and then to be involved with any kind of legitimate production. If there is cynicism, you won't find it in the craftspeople working in all the below-the-line departments. At 70 hours of work a week, you simply have to have drive and pride in your work. Otherwise, people notice, and if people notice, you're less likely to network your way to the next job.

It bums me out that more people don't like the film simply on basis that when I connect with a movie, I wish everybody else can have that same positive experience. So when people aren't just disagreeing but disagreeing in an aggressive way, it's frustrating. I want them to be able to see the movie as I saw it. And it can be really tough, especially in a case like this, where the dislike for the movie is so surprisingly vitriolic and personal after I had such a positive and at-times personal reaction to it.

[transmogrifier]

As it happens, I am absolutely concerned with "the consistency of the textual elements of the saga (like character)" more than anything, & in that regard 'they' (basement nerds and the 'too-cool-by-half') are utterly, spectacularly wrong. "Ruin Johnson" fucking nailed it.

What's with the ad hominems? Why try to stake out a difference in opinion over a film as some kind of personal failing in the opposition. I borderline hated the film, and I don't consider myself either a "basement nerd" (I haven't consumed a single piece of Star Wars entertainment outside of the core films - games, novelizations, TV shows... nothing. Don't give a shit about any of it. Don't give a shit about what is canon or not canon) or "too-cool-by-half". But apparently, that is what I must be to not like this film and find several flaws in the plot and the characterization (example of the latter: a number of defenders love to point out that the whole failed side quest thing is a way to "deepen" Poe's character in terms of him utterly failing to respect chain of command and being too cocky etc., yet after all the shit happens, and he mutinies, bloody Laura Dern and Carrie Fisher just turn to each other and are like, "Poe's all cool though right?/ "Yeah, he's pretty neat." And that's that! What a waste of time.)

[transmogrifier]

So when people aren't just disagreeing but disagreeing in an aggressive way, it's frustrating.

Literally look one post up to see the exact same thing, but from your "side." It happens both ways, you know.

[Dead & Messed Up]

At least in their case, they are concerned with the consistency of the textual elements of the saga (like character, for instance)...

Well... sometimes.

[Skitch]

This industry has always been about money. With the birth of the big blockbusters, of course the studios shift to mirror that model. I hardly see that the fault of just one studio. Hell, all the majors wish they were Disney.

This is why I'm so thankful for places like Netflix that still keep alive the risky mid-budget filmmaker. And, if the internet is to be believed that the trend of mega-blockbusters will pop one day, then there will be plenty of theater screen space for screenings of the gems lost during "era of super budgets".

Also, how spoiled we are. We live in a time when having a theater in your home is far from unheard of and honestly isn't that expensive. When I was a kid we were all amazed at the one rich kid in our school that had a VCR and one movie.

[Milky Joe]

What's with the ad hominems? Why try to stake out a difference in opinion over a film as some kind of personal failing in the opposition. I borderline hated the film, and I don't consider myself either a "basement nerd" (I haven't consumed a single piece of Star Wars entertainment outside of the core films - games, novelizations, TV shows... nothing. Don't give a shit about any of it. Don't give a shit about what is canon or not canon) or "too-cool-by-half". But apparently, that is what I must be to not like this film and find several flaws in the plot and the characterization (example of the latter: a number of defenders love to point out that the whole failed side quest thing is a way to "deepen" Poe's character in terms of him utterly failing to respect chain of command and being too cocky etc., yet after all the shit happens, and he mutinies, bloody Laura Dern and Carrie Fisher just turn to each other and are like, "Poe's all cool though right?/ "Yeah, he's pretty neat." And that's that! What a waste of time.)

Honestly I'm not really talking about you. I'm not surprised that you didn't like it—I can't exactly remember you going gaga for any of these tent-pole comic/sci-fi movies, though you sure do like complaining about them—nor do I care.

I'm talking about the millions of numbskulls across the internet, some of whom are literally calling for Rian Johnson and Kathleen Kennedy to be killed, or less dramatically, that Star Wars has been ruined, the character of Luke Skywalker has been destroyed, etc. That "Cancerous Feminism" has invaded their beloved movie franchise and destroyed their childhood. That Rose is fat and ugly. Etc etc. These are the people driving the online discourse surrounding this film, and they are who I'm talking about. And they deserve ad hominems thrown their way.

[transmogrifier]

These are the people driving the online discourse surrounding this film, and they are who I'm talking about.

I don't believe this part is true. Those people exist, yes, but they are easily ignored. To me, the people driving the discourse around the film are those who are actively dividing people into two groups - those that like it and those that don't, and then inventing a narrative around the perceived failings of the people in the group to which they do not belong, whether it be dismissing elitist critics or Disney shills, or railing against butthurt fanboys or people who don't appreciate cinema. That's what is driving a lot of film discussion these days, not just for this film, but most of the big budget stuff.

[Watashi]

Relevant to the Disney/Star Wars discussion:

Nation Reaffirms Commitment to Things They Recognize (https://www.theonion.com/nation-reaffirms-commitment-to-things-they-recognize-1819578733)

I would say this article is accurate for something like Rogue One.
I

[Grouchy]

I would say this article is accurate for something like Rogue One.
I
Huh? Rogue One is hardly a typical rehash of already seen Star Wars stuff.

[Sycophant]

I enjoyed The Last Jedi and I am also concerned about the trends related to the contemporary dominance of the franchise output of one particular media company occupying the vast majority of screens.

[Milky Joe]

Having finally re-watched The Force Awakens, I can safely come back here and say in response to


How dare you criticize this movie that so many dedicated and talented people in animatronics, CGI and puppeteering contributed to? Now allow me to shit on this JJ Abrams movie that used a whole bunch of the same people! Clearly, they tried harder the second time!

...that in fact yes, lol, TFA was completely blown out of the water by TLJ in terms of special effects. The former feels hollow and lazy in comparison. I place the praise / blame on this due solely to the ambition of the script and the quality of direction (or lack thereof). The Last Jedi is a high-water mark.

[Dukefrukem]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paxgKBUK4wQ

[Dukefrukem]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jr2YskMqHfo

[Milky Joe]

Neat compilation (with side-by-side comparison gifs) of the many cinematic references / inspirations in TLJ:

https://nerdist.com/star-wars-the-last-jedi-cinematic-references-guide-akira-kurosawa-jurassic-park-twin-peaks/

[Dukefrukem]

Dunno about 99% of those.

[Milky Joe]

Well you dunno about a whole lot in general so I'm not surprised

[Dead & Messed Up]

Nearly all of them are explained in-article as being the result of deliberate nods from production heads. The Citizen Kane one may be a reach, but most of them aren't.

[Dukefrukem]

Well you dunno about a whole lot in general so I'm not surprised

Ok?

[transmogrifier]

Ok?

joe is a radicalized, militant Last Jedi adherent who would have the likes of us rounded up and “re-educated” (“Blue milk is life, blue milk is power. Squeeze that udder!”) for failing to accept every part of the gospel as the Word of Rian. So keep that in mind.

[Ezee E]

Nearly all of them are explained in-article as being the result of deliberate nods from production heads. The Citizen Kane one may be a reach, but most of them aren't.

And here I thought the Citizen Kane one was the most dead-on.

[Milky Joe]

joe is a radicalized, militant Last Jedi adherent who would have the likes of us rounded up and “re-educated” (“Blue milk is life, blue milk is power. Squeeze that udder!”) for failing to accept every part of the gospel as the Word of Rian. So keep that in mind.

Oh eat a dick. A good friend of mine hated the movie and we have great conversations about it. Duke is just an idiot (as D_Davis's getting fed up and leaving can attest to). Plus I think he actually liked the movie?

[transmogrifier]

Oh eat a dick. A good friend of mine hated the movie and we have great conversations about it. Duke is just an idiot (as D_Davis's getting fed up and leaving can attest to). Plus I think he actually liked the movie?

His comment was harmless and on topic. You were the dick in this particular situation, unfortunately.

[Milky Joe]

Don't worry, I won't lose too much sleep about it.

[transmogrifier]

I think you overestimate the amount of thought I put into your sleeping habits.

[Grouchy]

Good, old fashioned fighting.

Anyway, that's a good list for classics I haven't seen or actually heard of - Gunga Din, Black Narcissus, Three Outlaw Samurai, 12 O'Clock High and that Russian one The Unsent Letter.

[Skitch]

Hey guys, remember www.rottentomatoes.com?

Heh. Yep

[Dukefrukem]

Oh eat a dick. A good friend of mine hated the movie and we have great conversations about it. Duke is just an idiot (as D_Davis's getting fed up and leaving can attest to). Plus I think he actually liked the movie?

Oh I see now. It's not about me being an idiot. It's my fault DD left MC and you resent me for it. I'm OK being an idiot. I'm not OK with you going out of your way to call me one.

So then Alex, what I can I do to change your opinion about me? You seem like a smart guy, who loves the Last Jedi, who can be reasoned with, much like Finn was reasoned with during his character arch in both films so far.... How do we put this personal attack thing to bed?

[Scar]

How do we put this personal attack thing to bed?

A bottle of red wine, dim the lights, play some smooth Jazz.

[Morris Schæffer]

Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the Wars thread!

[Dead & Messed Up]

A bottle of red wine, dim the lights, play some smooth Jazz.

Maybe some astral projection finger-touching...

[Pop Trash]

I don't know what's going on in here, but I just popped in to say that The Director and the Jedi behind-the-scenes documentary is good and made me cry. Rian Johnson seems like a really cool guy. I feel sorry for him that so many neckbeards are trying to destroy his career. If he had just made his own sci-fi movie not attached to SW, I don't think he would catch so much shit. Can you imagine what would happen if someone like Jonathan Glazer or Alex Garland made some weird ass Star Wars movie?

[Skitch]

Well he did make Looper. I'm not concerned about the people who hate TLJ. This is Star Wars, the only vote that matters is the box office, and it did just fine.

[Milky Joe]

Can you imagine what would happen if someone like Jonathan Glazer...made some weird ass Star Wars movie?

Oh hell yeah. Really I'd just like another Glazer film, I don't care what it is.

[Ezee E]

Well he did make Looper. I'm not concerned about the people who hate TLJ. This is Star Wars, the only vote that matters is the box office, and it did just fine.

I like Looper more than the Last Jedi.

[TGM]

I like Looper more than the Last Jedi.

A lot more.

[Pop Trash]

I like Looper more than the Last Jedi.

I don't.

[Scar]

Last Jedi is like Zombie’s Halloween 2. Didn’t care for it the first time, then it grows on you exponentially.

[Pop Trash]

That feel when Leia and Holdo say "may the force be with you" at the same time :( :( :(

[Dead & Messed Up]

The bit that gets me verklempt:

"Young Skywalker... still looking to the horizon."

The bit that excites me:

the ramp-up to Holdo's Maneuver. The juggling of the different arcs in that moment is mind-bogglingly effective to me. Rey/Kylo fighting over Luke's saber, Rose and Finn about to die, and the F.O. leaders realizing that Holdo's about to do what she's about to do, and then the silent cut.

[Skitch]

"See ya around kid."

[Pop Trash]

"See ya around kid."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oz_-VaTHpc8

[Skitch]

Second watch. Still loved it. Not a ten, but not sure any of them are.

[transmogrifier]

One hour in to a rewatch... this is a shitty, shitty movie.

[transmogrifier]

One hour in to a rewatch... this is a shitty, shitty movie.

And an hour and a half later, this is a shitty shitty shitty movie. Goddamn it’s bad.

[Watashi]

Thank you for the update, trans.

We really wanted to know.

[Pop Trash]

And an hour and a half later, this is a shitty shitty shitty movie. Goddamn it’s bad.

Objectively speaking, it's the best Star Wars movie ever made. Subjectively speaking, I have too much nostalgia for the OT to let those go.

[Dead & Messed Up]

And an hour and a half later, this is a shitty shitty shitty movie. Goddamn it’s bad.

Irony: I was out buying this movie while you were posting. :)

Looking forward to RJ's commentary.

[transmogrifier]

Thank you for the update, trans.

We really wanted to know.

You're welcome.

Morning after update: still sucks, but at least I never have to watch it ever again, so things are looking up!

More updates as they roll in....

[Dead & Messed Up]

The commentary on the disc is fine but doesn't say much you haven't heard in Rian Johnson interviews. "The Director and the Jedi" is a fairly fast-moving behind the scenes documentary on the film that frames the production from Johnson's perspective; the most interesting element is how the doc is up-front about Hamill's misgivings about stepping into the shoes of a more cynical Luke. So far, the best special feature by far is the clips of Snoke's throne room where it's just Serkis in a mocap suit. I'm happy the guy's found his bread and butter, but goddamn can the man act. Can we see Serkis in live-action roles more often? I'm not satisfied with his glorified cameos as Chef Boy in King Kong and Klaue in Black Panther.

[MadMan]

I still want to see this again. Also the same Star Wars fanboys crying over TLJ will go see Solo and 9. Many of them want something to bitch about.

[Dukefrukem]

Bummer. It appears they were close to offering Johnson Episode IX. But instead gave him an entire trilogy.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/intrigue-and-drama-on-the-han-solo-set-1525961998

[Skitch]

That is a bummer, but I will accept that trade up.

[TGM]

If Johnson was doing Episode IX as well, I'd just go ahead and quit with this one.

[transmogrifier]

Did Johnson write Episode VIII? If so, I’m glad he’s gone. Pity about the replacement though, because even though Jedi is actively bad and thus provokes discussion, Awakens is just bland.

[Skitch]

If Johnson was doing Episode IX as well, I'd just go ahead and quit with this one.

Nah you wouldn't. And I'm not getting hooked by ya haters lol. Its fine, like/dislike whatever you want. ;)

[Dead & Messed Up]

I think a Star Wars series guided by the sensibilities of distinct writer/directors would be an interesting idea, so even though I think The Last Jedi is excellent, I'd want to see someone else take a turn at the wheel.

[TGM]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f83D18xL7VE

[Dukefrukem]

Yeh that makes the Last Jedi seem really really bad. Everything after the Vacation bit; especially the "plan" of abandoning the cruise ship and hide on the planet.

[Henry Gale]

Yeah, I ended up actually watching the whole the other night, and as much as there are some decent gags and it's entertainingly edited, it just feels like a tiring, relentless probing of something for plot holes (I could not care less) and pointing out "faults" by comparing it against other movie's templates and characters' arcs to justify why it didn't work for them for the sake of being a killjoy, and one who's already established a brand of making lengthy, vile critiques of Star Wars movies rather than having any direct inspiration from this particular one to do so. It just feels so weird and insipid to want to tread all of these soiled waters eight months after this sector of criticisms against it (which in the grand scheme of feelings towards it, still feel like a very vocal minority) already had such an unpleasant stench to it. I get that Plinkett is kinda sort of a character, but people eat it up and treat it like some edgy gospel when it comes to Star Wars Criticism On The Internet™, and it'll just provide further ammo for its dissenters to parrot as if their own criticisms.

I like Force Awakens a lot, but I increasingly feel like it's that film's fault for providing so much of a comfort in familiar structure, franchise trope, and other warm, cozy elements to rely on that it made all the deliberately jarring turns in Last Jedi break brains (or at least needlessly aggravate and provoke people) when it really shouldn't have.


Yeh that makes the Last Jedi seem really really bad. Everything after the Vacation bit; especially the "plan" of abandoning the cruise ship and hide on the planet.

I mean, obviously it's a knowingly glib and cheap shot at it to be like "Oh, these characters are dumb like in comedies!" as if the film itself is a humourless dirge that hasn't always had main characters who included sassy robots, hot-headed blowhards, and wise-cracking puppets. But really if things like his "Point A to Point B" issues are really things that are occupying your thinking as you're watching the movie or even reflecting on it after, instead of the gorgeous grandeur and kinetic spectacle and being swept up in all the emotions of it in between, then clearly we are very different people and maybe this was never going to work for you. It's a movie that's blown me away all three times I've seen it, its finale leaving me smiling ear to ear in an absolutely, gloriously overwhelmed state in a haze of tears and all-around warmth and contentment, with a revived love for this world and its characters, but apparently I guess I should've gotten caught up in the minutiae of why certain escape plans were wrongly executed the way they were.

Like, at this point something like the whole "Holdo should've told Poe the plan" thing is such a exhausted, entitled argument both against the film's script and her as a character within the story. I don't even care to understand why someone would hold onto it so passionately. Imagine spending so much time and energy on something you hate. I wouldn't have even written a post this long if I didn't genuinely love the movie!

[Dead & Messed Up]

What's annoying me is that a lot of people online are starting to try out the defense of "Plinkett is satire."

This is similar to the unconvincing rehab of CinemaSins as "satire."

Satire exaggerates a position or argument to such a degree that the entirety becomes absurd and laughable and not to be taken seriously. Classic examples are Jonathan Swift and Dr. Strangelove. But CinemaSins and Plinkett are more in the business of actual film criticism. Just because a person alternates between self-owns and tear-downs doesn't mean that person has achieved satire. What it can often mean, though, is that they're trying to burn the bridges of good-faith discourse; leaning back whenever someone leans in, and responding with, "Hey, bro, it's just a joke."

None of that is an attack on this video in specific.

I just don't like when defenders try to excuse any shortcomings with "it's satire."

Someone online put it better than I could by comparing this declaration of satire to Michael Scott "declaring" bankruptcy by shouting it real loud.

[Milky Joe]

The Prequel reviews were great because they were a) original & b) necessary. They were utterly savage and pulled no punches about how terrible those movies were.

Now, a decade on, everyone on YT is imitating Plinkett. All you need is to log in to YT to be recommended 30 videos about how TLJ was a complete cinematic failure. It's schtick now, unnecessary. I'd like to see a feature length review that shows why it's the best Star Wars ever. That would at least be different.

[Ezee E]

Who has the time to watch that?

[transmogrifier]

It’s always amusing how angry TLJ fans get with people who don’t like it.

“glib... cheap....tiring.....relentless ” :)

[Dukefrukem]

I recently watched it a second time and I was shocked how bored I was compared to the first time around. I definitely do not get the same sense of excitement as I do with TOT. It's just way too long.

[transmogrifier]

I recently watched it a second time and I was shocked how bored I was compared to the first time around. I definitely do not get the same sense of excitement as I do with TOT. It's just way too long.

It’s a very poorly constructed film. I mean, Luke’s pivotal character turn to a bitter, depressed mentor is not necessarily a bad thing - but it is literally dealt with in three repeated flashbacks totaling about 3 minutes. And then he decides to do his big diversion, but of course doesn’t actually tell the “rebels” what he is planning... instead they are somehow supposed to figure it out on their own so that the film can have its gotcha moment. It’s all sizzle, absolutely no steak. But for fans, that’s all “nitpicking” because the throne room was red and Kurosawaesque or something.

[Watashi]

It’s always amusing how angry TLJ fans get with people who don’t like it.

“glib... cheap....tiring.....relentless ” :)

The fans are the one who are angry?

Do... do... you live under a rock?

[transmogrifier]

The fans are the one who are angry?

Do... do... you live under a rock?

Literally look a few posts up. More than one group of people can be angry at the same time, no?

The group of Star Wars fans who think Johnson shat all over their precious franchise just for kicks are just as amusing but they don’t seem to hang around here.

[Watashi]

Last time I checked, people who enjoy a movie don't send death threats and send sexual and racist remarks towards the creator and actors at every possible mention of the movie.

[Watashi]

Also how did anything Henry or DaMu post come off as "angry" to you??

[transmogrifier]

Last time I checked, people who enjoy a movie don't send death threats and send sexual and racist remarks towards the creator and actors at every possible mention of the movie.

No shit. I'm not defending them. They are dicks. But as someone who dislikes the movie, it gets tiring fast being lumped in with those idiots as if criticizing TLJ is a sign of having ulterior motives or being a serial nitpicker or something along those lines. And it is very clear that a lot of TLJ defenders online are very happy to attack the characters of those all those who criticize as crazed fanboys or nitpicky neckbeards who refuse to have fun.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Honestly, I thought HG was making specific commentary about RedLetterMedia. I mean, I've been reading a lot of tweets from RLM fans who thought this was one of their weaker efforts , and RLM dropped the ball pretty hard with their commentary on The Force Awakens. The Plinkett persona in general seems to have run its course.

(That Force Awakens video put me off to RLM in general, as they spent half the time talking about the fanbase instead of the movie and spent the back half making empty points against the movie's diversity before stating that Finn and Rey needed a stronger romantic relationship. It felt really weird. Lazy and bro-y.)

And HG is right about the parroting of RLM. That groupthink among its fans is so ubiquitous it's a meme at this point. On Reddit, whenever a video drops, one of the first and most top-voted comments will be something like, "Great, now I know how to feel about this movie."

[Milky Joe]

But as someone who dislikes the movie, it gets tiring fast being lumped in with those idiots as if criticizing TLJ is a sign of having ulterior motives or being a serial nitpicker or something along those lines.

Oh, how could anyone ever think such things about you?

[transmogrifier]

Oh, how could anyone ever think such things about you?

There you go.

[Skitch]

I don't know how anyone could listen to that voice for more than 30 seconds, let alone over an hour. Even if he was shredding a movie I hated. That voice is a cheese grater on my shin.

[Philip J. Fry]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWqVJZMh6-w

[Morris Schæffer]

Liked it the first time, appreciated it even more when I saw it again a few days ago. It got me hyped again for the finale next week. Although some of my 2017 criticisms haven't evaporated, in the end, this is the one which takes chances, the one which feels a bit more unshackled from previous entries in the saga. And that's sitting very well with me now.

[Pop Trash]

I watched it again. It's still fucking great. Best one since the og. trilogy and it's not even close (and yes I'm including the stand alone "prequels" or whatever we are calling them). Most of the flaws now seem excessively nitpicky and even things like the wild goose chase to the Casino Planet place (forget its name) seems like an elaborate excuse for Rose to throw a metaphorical molotov cocktail on the place where she grew up and abused her (class warfare).

I'm not even that big of a Rian Johnson fan (my hot take is this is his best movie by far) but he directs the hell out of this. Memorable shot after memorable shot and some great Spielbergian oners. So many great lines ("we are what they grow beyond", "let the past die, kill it if you have to", "it's all machine partner, live free don't join", "page turners they are not" etc etc).

This is a great motion picture.

[Skitch]

Fuuuuuuuck yeah

[Irish]

"Best since the original trilogy" seems like an incredibly low bar, tho

[Pop Trash]

"Best since the original trilogy" seems like an incredibly low bar, tho

If I'm being honest and not clouded w/ my own nostalgia for Return of the Jedi -which was the first Star Wars I saw in the theater and one of the first movies period I even remember watching- I would say this is the best one since Empire. But what is Star Wars but childhood nostalgia? Ironically, the biggest theme of The Last Jedi is lighting the past on fire. Burn it down!

[Dukefrukem]

We need trans to check in...

[Dukefrukem]

Was in a story warsy feel so I replayed Jedi Knight this week. Was an awesome 90s throwback. I miss 1997.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7Kxs84qgos

[Skitch]

I already seen it! :p

[Dukefrukem]

I already seen it! :p

You watched me play live??

Edit: Wait I wanted this to be in the video game thread. How did this happen?

[Skitch]

You watched me play live??

Edit: Wait I wanted this to be in the video game thread. How did this happen?

No not live. But soon after. I was working

[Dukefrukem]

This is another "don't ask me why I did this" calculation like I did for X-Men Apocalypse (http://matchcut.artboiled.com/showthread.php?6356-X-Men-Apocalypse-(Bryan-Singer)/page3&p=599059&viewfull=1#post599059).

At the end of the movie, the Resistance send out a bunch of V-4X-D Ski speeders towards the First Order.

It takes Finn 354 seconds to get within 50 feet of the canon before Rose decides to crash into him. (that's just under 6 minutes).

I researched the top speed of those speeders, which isn't fast. I guessed they are probably traveling 50 mph (80 kph) based on the wind and dust from that scene. No faster than driving your car on the highway it looks.

At that speed, with that time, the distance they traveled is just under 5 miles (4.916).

Minutes later, there's a scene showing Finn dragging Rose back from the crash into the base.

Lets just say he was able to walk 4 mph (the average human walking speed) while dragging her. it would have taken him 1 hour and 13 minutes to make it back to the base.

[Ezee E]

The power of editing!

[StuSmallz]

I've obviously had TLJ on the brain lately, and I have to say that, one criticism of it that I heard a lot that doesn't hold up is that Johnson's creative decisions for it felt like some sort of "middle finger" to what Abrams did with The Force Awakens, or even to the franchise as a whole, which makes little sense to me; for starters, when it comes to what TLJ did with Luke's characterization, while I've gone into greater detail (https://www.movieforums.com/community/showthread.php?anchor=1&p=2202966#post2202966) about this elsewhere, it bears repeating that everything Johnson did with his arc was a natural extension of what TFA already hinted at about him, since he was obviously living in exile nowhere near the frontlines for a reason. And, the same basic thing goes for the complaints about what the film did with Snoke, or with the revelation of Rey's parents, because with the former, people are baselessly assuming that there was supposed to be some sort of greater "mystery" to Snoke's identity to have another excuse to complain, when TFA established nothing of the sort about him (so why assume otherwise?), and with the latter, the only thing that TLJ did was merely resolve the mystery of who her parents were; how is that supposed to some sort of snubbing of Abrams "plan" for that sub-plot?

I mean, no one knows what JJ had planned for that detail (if he indeed had a plan at all), and it's easy to assume that the true identity of Rey's parents was supposed to be some sort of presumably big payoff, when JJ choose to establish so little of substance about that question in his film, since his writing style assumes that just randomly introducing mysteries (https://youtu.be/vpjVgF5JDq8) is an intriguing storytelling device in and of itself. I mean, I think his films are generally entertaining, but he's definitely a better director than he is a writer.

[Dukefrukem]

It's been a while since I've seen both Force Awakens and TLJ but damn Stu I think you're really stretching things here.

I'll give the Luke arc a pass since there's basically nothing in the TFA until the very end about Luke's true intentions. But the whole middle finger to Snoke AND Kylo stood out immediately to me. JJ HEAVILY implied some clear linkage in the TFA (which was accepted as a tremendous eyeroll throughout the Star Wars fandom) especially with that montage of clips where Rey touches the lightsaber and was seeing visions of the Luke/Vader lightsaber fight hallway in Empire Strikes Back. Oh and btw, it was Luke's lightsaber that he dropped from that battle. Where the fuck did it come from?? And then of course Kylo smashing his helmet into a billion pieces was Johnson saying... "we don't need another Vader-wannabe here"

I can only hope there's some original ideas in whatever Star Wars future we have.

[Skitch]

I will not be drawn into another Last Jedi argument. I really will not.

[Ezee E]

The Mandalorian works for fan service and being original. Curious what the Obi-Wan show will do.

[StuSmallz]

It's been a while since I've seen both Force Awakens and TLJ but damn Stu I think you're really stretching things here. I'll give the Luke arc a pass since there's basically nothing in the TFA until the very end about Luke's true intentions. But the whole middle finger to Snoke AND Kylo stood out immediately to me. JJ HEAVILY implied some clear linkage in the TFA (which was accepted as a tremendous eyeroll throughout the Star Wars fandom) especially with that montage of clips where Rey touches the lightsaber and was seeing visions of the Luke/Vader lightsaber fight hallway in Empire Strikes Back. Oh and btw, it was Luke's lightsaber that he dropped from that battle. Where the fuck did it come from?? And then of course Kylo smashing his helmet into a billion pieces was Johnson saying... "we don't need another Vader-wannabe here"I can only hope there's some original ideas in whatever Star Wars future we have.Okay, what about the portrayal of Snoke in TFA established there was supposed to be some big secret about his identity or his relationship to any other character? Because all I remember was an Emperor-wannabe who did or said nothing particularly tantalizing the whole film, and it feels like people are automatically assuming there was supposed to be some big revelation with him just because every Abrams story has to have at least one big "mystery box" in them, whether they need them or not, like with the "secret" of how Luke's saber ended up in Maz's place; it's like, why on Earth did that have to be a secret? It's like the assumption that Rey's vision was meant to imply some sort of connection between Kylo & Snoke, when the latter character was never seen (or even heard) in that scene, because when a storyteller is constantly planting mysteries everywhere just because he can, then you can read anything into the vaguest aspects of his work. Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, "Luke, I am your father" was a bigger middle finger to established Star Wars canon than anything that Johnson did with The Last Jedi (although I guess that isn't supposed to count if it was Lucas giving his own story the finger...?).

[StuSmallz]

I will not be drawn into another Last Jedi argument. I really will not.Aw come on Skitch, I could use the backup!

[transmogrifier]

Aw come on Skitch, I could use the backup!

This is a very pro-TLJ site. You're gonna be alright.

EDIT: You may want to take back that rep, because I'm certainly not one of those supporters :) I hate the movie.

[Dukefrukem]

Okay, what about the portrayal of Snoke in TFA established there was supposed to be some big secret about his identity or his relationship to any other character? Because all I remember was an Emperor-wannabe who did or said nothing particularly tantalizing the whole film, and it feels like people are automatically assuming there was supposed to be some big revelation with him just because every Abrams story has to have at least one big "mystery box" in them, whether they need them or not, like with the "secret" of how Luke's saber ended up in Maz's place; it's like, why on Earth did that have to be a secret? It's like the assumption that Rey's vision was meant to imply some sort of connection between Kylo & Snoke, when the latter character was never seen (or even heard) in that scene, because when a storyteller is constantly planting mysteries everywhere just because he can, then you can read anything into the vaguest aspects of his work. Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, "Luke, I am your father" was a bigger middle finger to established Star Wars canon than anything that Johnson did with The Last Jedi (although I guess that isn't supposed to count if it was Lucas giving his own story the finger...?).

"Luke I am your father" was the best reveal in climatic (I made up a word that encompasses all climax scenes in every movie ever) history. Nothing can be compared. That was just the backdrop to that whole sequence anyway. THe main purpose was trying to turn Luke to the dark side... (again repeated in TFA) Snoke, who was shown as just a hologram in TFA, was absolutely touted as an Emperor-like being, because the world needs Emperor-like beings in Star Wars. That's all.... Johnson killing him off was redirecting that trope, which JJ wanted to repeat again in TFA with turning a potential Jedi to a Sith... "Bring her to me!"

[Skitch]

Aw come on Skitch, I could use the backup!

I can't do it again. The people that love it, love it. The people that hate it, hate it for deeply irrational reasons imo, but they have the right to feel however they want to feel and it doesn't affect my enjoyment of it so what do I care they should adore Rise of Skywalker for all the reasons they hated Last Jedi but what do I know.

[transmogrifier]

The people that hate it, hate it for deeply irrational reasons imo, they should adore Rise of Skywalker for all the reasons they hated Last Jedi.

Pray tell, please tell me what my irrational reasons are. I'm very interested.

[Skitch]

Pray tell, please tell me what my irrational reasons are. I'm very interested.

I was generalizing about the internet, that was not personally directed at you. [While it probably sounds condescending in text form, it's not meant to be] From what I know of you, you're complaints are probably well thought out and inarguable.

[transmogrifier]

I was generalizing about the internet, that was not personally directed at you. [While it probably sounds condescending in text form, it's not meant to be] From what I know of you, you're complaints are probably well thought out and inarguable.

This movie seems to be a lightning rod for the general move toward making film discussion as polarized as politics, with a team mentality with everyone against you being the worst and their opinions and motivations being obviously driven by (a) personal weaknesses/stupidity and/or (b) an obvious desire to attack us or troll us.

It pisses me off (in general, no about this movie in particular), and I was surprised to see someone like yourself, someone pretty level-headed (Boogie Nights atheism aside), feeding into that.

[Skitch]

This movie seems to be a lightning rod for the general move toward making film discussion as polarized as politics, with a team mentality with everyone against you being the worst and their opinions and motivations being obviously driven by (a) personal weaknesses/stupidity and/or (b) an obvious desire to attack us or troll us.

It pisses me off (in general, no about this movie in particular), and I was surprised to see someone like yourself, someone pretty level-headed (Boogie Nights atheism aside), feeding into that.

I was reacting to the internet's [imo] insane overreaction to this movie. At the absolute worst, The Last Jedi's negative reviews should be indifference. Instead, its hated to the point of it still has Star War assholes starting petitions to have it removed from canon. I feel its more hated than the prequels, and thats just ridiculous.

[Skitch]

Also I was really hammered yesterday (next level, Southern Comfort 100 proof, neighbors fault, I'm curious what other apologies I'll have to make), so I do personally apologize for fucking up a "your". See? Evidence to my state of jackassery. :D

[StuSmallz]

This is a very pro-TLJ site. You're gonna be alright.

EDIT: You may want to take back that rep, because I'm certainly not one of those supporters :) I hate the movie.I know, but any words of support are still appreciated, you know? ;) That being said, though...
Pray tell, please tell me what my irrational reasons are. I'm very interested....just speaking for myself, I'd say that your complaint that it didn't make sense for Holdo to not let Poe in on the evacuation plan didn't hold up, since he had already screwed things up by demonstrating insubordination on multiple occasions, and it made perfect sense for her not to trust him with such sensitive information. However, I'm not trying to act like there are no legitimate reasons to dislike The Last Jedi, since there are certain flaws with it, like a certain tension between Johnson's tendency to throw curveballs at his audience (at least, as much as he could with this project), and Disney wanting to keep it more viewer-friendly (the repetition of some of the same narrative beats from Empire feels like something Disney probably insisted on, IMO) ... it's just that, the discourse on the film has already been somewhat poisoned by the bad faith trolls online, it's kind of impossible to completely take the taint of that off of the film by this point, which is a shame if, like me, you're looking for some more honest discussion about it, you know?