Film Awards Talk - 2018

[Skitch]

The Shape of Water is gonna win. I thought that was a bit obvious.

A little too obvious. Which is why I think it won't. I'm guessing 3 Billboards.

I love the hope you all hold that Get Out will win BP. I really hope you're right. I don't think it has a chance. I would love to be wrong, but I think the Academy is the kind of old white voters to be offended by such a concept of that film. I think it wins writing though. It should or prep for a lot of angry articles.

[Dukefrukem]

Good for Sam

[Skitch]

Darkest Hour, makeup

And I go 1 for 2.

[Philip J. Fry]

Phantom Thread has one!

[Skitch]

And I'm 2 for 3!

[transmogrifier]

Remember that Suicide Squad is an Oscar winner and Robert Altman isn’t before you take these things too seriously, folks!

[Philip J. Fry]

Blade Runner is an Oscar winner. I hope Roger Deakins becomes one as well.

[MadMan]

Get Out
Phantom Thread
Lady Bird
Three Billboards outside Ebbing, Missouri
The Shape of Water

I have minimal interest in seeing Call Me By Your Name, Dunkirk, or The Post, and of course none at all in The Darkest Hour. Of the ones I've seen, Get Out and Phantom Thread are the only ones I'd consider watching again, though I tend to doubt that either would improve much on second viewing; like most Oscar contenders, they seem designed to be exhausted the first time around. (In fact, as much as I usually like Anderson's films, probably only Magnolia has to be seen more than once--which may help to explain why it didn't win any Oscars.)

Call Me was excellent, so your loss, I guess.

[MadMan]

Sam winning it was cool.

[Spinal]

Yes, they chose both the worst Live Action Short and the worst Animated Short. Shaking my head.

[Morris Schæffer]

Oh boy get out wins best screenplay. I wonder what else is in store.

[Morris Schæffer]

Love the call me by your name win. Saw the movie hours ago. It's great.

[Grouchy]

I should have bet money.

I watched from Best Cinematography onwards - the highlight was Jane Fonda cracking a Barbarella joke.

And man, I don't care how old Helen Mirren is, she turns me on.

[Spinal]

Yeah, I know nothing. Best winner since Amadeus.

[Idioteque Stalker]

I said the same thing last year.

[Irish]

Soooooo... most favorites won. Just like... every other year. I don't know why I expected anything different. I guess I bought into the hype again.

Little disappointed that "Lady Bird" was shut out. I thought it might pick up screenplay, and I was really hoping for Metcalf over Janney.

Not too annoyed about Peele and Del Toro's wins because they're such immensely likable personalities.

Best moments:

- Kumail Nanjiani's shout out to Iowa.
- McDormand's "If I fall over, pick me up because I have something to say."
- Del Toro quickly checking the BP envelope and then turning to grin at the crowd.

[Philip J. Fry]

And Deakins won.:o

[Spinal]

I said the same thing last year.

It may have also been true last year.

[baby doll]

Call Me was excellent, so your loss, I guess.I wasn't a big fan of I Am Love.

[Stay Puft]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzganSspJps

C-C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER

[Watashi]

Academy Award Winner Ozamataz Buckshank.

[Ezee E]

Well, now it's up to Hollywood to follow through on their ideas and speeches. Say the same thing next year, and it's just rehash.

[StuSmallz]

Academy Award Winner Ozamataz Buckshank.Or alternatively, Donkey Teeth!

In all seriousness, though, my issues with the direction of Get Out ​aside, its screenplay seemed pretty solid based off what ended up in the final product, and I look forward to Peele further developing his potential with his next project, whatever it turns out to be.

[baby doll]

Academy Award Winner Ozamataz Buckshank.Academy Award Winner Kobe Bryant.

[Peng]

Screenplay categories remain peerless for another year.

[Mal]

Technical wins were good. Deakins!
All the big award wins were terrible though.

[Irish]

Well, now it's up to Hollywood to follow through on their ideas and speeches. Say the same thing next year, and it's just rehash.

They already did!

Didn't you see the Black Panther / Lexus commercial? #representationmatters

/s

[Pop Trash]

I was thinking today that The Shape of Water is weirder than the naysayers give it credit for. Beyond even the fish fucking there's a running joke about Michael Shannon's decaying finger and a decapitated cat played for laughs. Classic GDT.

[MadMan]

I wasn't a big fan of I Am Love.

I never saw it.

[MadMan]

I was thinking today that The Shape of Water is weirder than the naysayers give it credit for. Beyond even the fish fucking there's a running joke about Michael Shannon's decaying finger and a decapitated cat played for laughs. Classic GDT.

I recall Shannon telling the general that his pussy finger was still working. Also it featured female masturbation.

[MadMan]

Soooooo... most favorites won. Just like... every other year. I don't know why I expected anything different. I guess I bought into the hype again.

Little disappointed that "Lady Bird" was shut out. I thought it might pick up screenplay, and I was really hoping for Metcalf over Janney.

Not too annoyed about Peele and Del Toro's wins because they're such immensely likable personalities.

Best moments:

- Kumail Nanjiani's shout out to Iowa.
- McDormand's "If I fall over, pick me up because I have something to say."
- Del Toro quickly checking the BP envelope and then turning to grin at the crowd.

I fully agree with this post. I laughed at the Iowa shoutout. Also Deakins winning is great. Long overdue.

[Skitch]

I missed 9.

[Spinal]

I was thinking today that The Shape of Water is weirder than the naysayers give it credit for. Beyond even the fish fucking there's a running joke about Michael Shannon's decaying finger and a decapitated cat played for laughs. Classic GDT.

Seriously. I guess I should see it as a sign of progress when a Guillermo del Toro film wins the Oscar and people bitch about it being the 'safe' choice.

[Spinal]

Best moments:

- Kumail Nanjiani's shout out to Iowa.
- McDormand's "If I fall over, pick me up because I have something to say."
- Del Toro quickly checking the BP envelope and then turning to grin at the crowd.

I also enjoyed Gerwig mouthing the words "I love him!" during Guillermo's second speech.

[Grouchy]

I was thinking today that The Shape of Water is weirder than the naysayers give it credit for. Beyond even the fish fucking there's a running joke about Michael Shannon's decaying finger and a decapitated cat played for laughs. Classic GDT.
I was thinking something similar today. Not even ten years ago, anyone who said this movie would win an Oscar would be laughed at. On this context, it was the most obvious choice despite its quirks.

I imagine the same thing happened throughout history. Midnight Cowboy won in 1969, and that would have seemed impossible during the first half of the '60s.

[Ezee E]

I don't understand how Shape of Water is obvious. I'll give it that it's the most "old-time cinematic" out of the group with at least some diversity attached to it. It's basically sci-fi/fantasy.

"Obvious" is The Post, Dunkirk, or even Lady Bird to try and get it within the times.

The show was incredibly boring for the obvious reason of making change for the future, so I get it. But if we hear similar speeches and thinking next year, it'll just be a joke. I can only hope this is the next "age of Hollywood" and next year goes back to being fun. If I think of it this way, there's a lot of promise of what's to come.

Last change of Hollywood... maybe Sundance and the late 80's bringing Indies to the forefront, with a half-chapter in Spider-Man 2 bringing franchises to the forefront

[Ezee E]

I don't understand how Shape of Water is obvious. I'll give it that it's the most "old-time cinematic" out of the group with at least some diversity attached to it. It's basically sci-fi/fantasy.

"Obvious" is The Post, Dunkirk, or even Lady Bird to try and get it within the times.

The show was incredibly boring for the obvious reason of making change for the future, so I get it. But if we hear similar speeches and thinking next year, it'll just be a joke. I can only hope this is the next "age of Hollywood" and next year goes back to being fun. If I think of it this way, there's a lot of promise of what's to come.

Last change of Hollywood... maybe Sundance and the late 80's bringing Indies to the forefront, with a half-chapter in Spider-Man 2 bringing franchises to the forefront

[Pop Trash]

The show was incredibly boring for the obvious reason of making change for the future, so I get it. But if we hear similar speeches and thinking next year, it'll just be a joke. I can only hope this is the next "age of Hollywood" and next year goes back to being fun. If I think of it this way, there's a lot of promise of what's to come.


Jesus, YES. I find all the back patting super cringey especially since they seemed to conveniently turn the movement into a liberal cultural virtue signalling display rather than dwell on the specifics of mega creeps in Hollywood.

[Dead & Messed Up]

I don't understand how Shape of Water is obvious. I'll give it that it's the most "old-time cinematic" out of the group with at least some diversity attached to it. It's basically sci-fi/fantasy.

I think the big things are (a) it's progressive politics friendly, with the heroic diverse misfits against the evil white man and his government and (b) it's literally built on top of a classic movie theater, and its heroes love old-timey movies, and there's that Top Hat / Follow the Fleet derived musical number, so there's a reverence for Old Hollywood, similar to what you'll find in past Oscar-winners like Cinema Paradiso and The Artist.

[Spinal]

We really need to stop watching our movies through the lens of divisive social media politics. The concerns in The Shape of Water are essentially timeless, not "progressive politics friendly". This is like Colbert saying the truth "has a liberal bias".

[Grouchy]

Eh, the film goes out of its way to have every positive character be a member of a minority group, while the villain is a white male who takes pride on his aggressive masculinity. The progressive message is clearly deliberate by Del Toro and his crew.

[Dead & Messed Up]

We really need to stop watching our movies through the lens of divisive social media politics. The concerns in The Shape of Water are essentially timeless, not "progressive politics friendly". This is like Colbert saying the truth "has a liberal bias".

I'd agree that social identity politics have their limits and can definitely get in the way of discussing other crucial matters to the form (y'know, narrative, filmcraft, editing, etc.) I just assume that was something on the Academy's mind when they went to vote.

At the same time, Del Toro seems to have very deliberately set that movie during the early 1960s to point out that the Norman Rockwellian "good old days" were decidedly less good if you were gay, black, disabled, or a mer-person.

[Ezee E]

Eh, the film goes out of its way to have every positive character be a member of a minority group, while the villain is a white male who takes pride on his aggressive masculinity. The progressive message is clearly deliberate by Del Toro and his crew.

Nitpick: Although Octavia Spencer's husband comes across as abusive, just overpowered by Michael Shannon.

[Grouchy]

Nitpick: Although Octavia Spencer's husband comes across as abusive, just overpowered by Michael Shannon.
What? That's just nonsense. He comes across as not very brave during the intimidation scene and that's it for that character.

[Pop Trash]

Eh, the film goes out of its way to have every positive character be a member of a minority group, while the villain is a white male who takes pride on his aggressive masculinity. The progressive message is clearly deliberate by Del Toro and his crew.

I guess it didn't bother me, because it seems consistent with the times that the cleaning crew might be a mix of black women and women with disabilities. Plus a woman would gravitate towards a gay guy because he isn't married w/ kids (as most straight men past the age of 25 were in those days) and he's a nice guy w/o expecting anything from her sexually (although given her libido, she might not have shot him down). The foster father in Baby Driver bothered me more since he was black, deaf, elderly, AND in a wheelchair for seemingly no purpose other than to make him black, deaf, elderly, AND in a wheelchair.

[Spinal]

When you label this film 'progressive', you sound like Glenn Beck. Honestly.

[Watashi]

You really don't see how The Shape of Water is progressive, Spinal?

[Spinal]

It would make as much sense to say Robin Hood panders to 'progressive values'.

[Grouchy]

Hahahah but I wasn't disparaging the film! I was just saying, there's a definitive intention to read the past (and the Rockwellian imagery like D&MU says) through a present day progressive lens. Del Toro could have been subtler about it, sure, but I'm not using "progressive" as a negative here.

[Spinal]

You really don't see how The Shape of Water is progressive, Spinal?

The argument being made here is that somehow The Shape of Water is a 'safe' choice for Best Picture because it panders to 'progressive' values. This, I suppose, is where we've come to in our culture. Cruelty, power abuse and the oppression of the outsider are seen somehow, not as universally repulsive human instincts, but as one side of a coin that we can either accept or reject based on our political party. I think this is absurd. I think the film uses extraordinarily bold artistic choices (and yes, awareness of contemporary casting preferences) to tell a story that is essentially Beauty and the Beast with a twist. It's not a 'safe' film. It's not a 'pandering' film. It's a film in which a middle-aged woman masturbates in a bathtub within the first 10 minutes.

[Spinal]

Apologies if I seem overly defensive. I may be reacting to Rolling Stone (https://www.rollingstone.com/movies/lists/20-best-worst-and-most-wtf-moments-of-oscars-2018-w517436) more than you guys.

[Grouchy]

The argument being made here is that somehow The Shape of Water is a 'safe' choice for Best Picture because it panders to 'progressive' values.
That is not my argument, though. I think it's a "safe" movie because despite its boldness and frankness about sex, structurally, it's a Disney classic. It has predictable dramatic bits, situations and characters all the way through.

Also, like we discussed on the movie's thread, there's something artificial about the romance.

[Grouchy]

Relevant.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0Kx3jqEGh4

[Pop Trash]

Am I the only one who doesn't get Tiffany Haddish? Every time I see her on TV she really doesn't seem that far away from the walking stereotypes that are noted Trump supporters Diamond & Silk.

[DavidSeven]

I had my own favorites, and they mostly didn't win, but I didn't really see anything too egregiously bad about these awards (at least in the feature film category). The fact that they got the nominations mostly dead-on certainly helped there. Kudos to Del Toro, McDormand, Oldman, Janney, Rockwell, Peele, Deakins, et al. Honestly, who can get too upset that these are the people who won last night? Not every big event warrants a jubilant or harshly negative response. Sometimes things just go off without a hitch, and that's okay too.

[Grouchy]

The Oscar has always been all about awarding people who should have been awarded many times before, and that's what happened last night with Ivory, Goldman and Deakins.

[Sycophant]

Apologies if I seem overly defensive. I may be reacting to Rolling Stone (https://www.rollingstone.com/movies/lists/20-best-worst-and-most-wtf-moments-of-oscars-2018-w517436) more than you guys.

I skipped the Oscars this year. But man, the reasoning Rolling Stone gives for thinking Shape of Water shouldn't have won is bleeeeeeeh. People should be disappointed that it won for the reason I was--that it wasn't that great--not because it failed to speak for us all In These Dark Times or whatever.

[Sycophant]

Also the juxtaposition of "blah Oldman's 'your turn' win" with "YES! Deakins and Ivory wins at last!" was hilarious.

[Pop Trash]

The Oscar has always been all about awarding people who should have been awarded many times before, and that's what happened last night with Ivory, Goldman and Deakins.

Deakins did beautiful work for BR 2049, though. Would be very well deserved even if it was the first movie he ever lensed.

[DavidSeven]

Didn't see Call Me by Your Name, but Oldman and Deakins were very worthy winners for the films they were actually awarded for. I wouldn't begrudge "body of work" awards for those two, but this wasn't quite a Scorsese/Departed situation, in my opinion. I was expecting to be annoyed by Darkest Hour, but I was actually quite moved by Oldman's performance. The cinematography in 2049 speaks for itself. Deakins is the G.O.A.T., but still performing at peak level.

[Pop Trash]

I skipped the Oscars this year. But man, the reasoning Rolling Stone gives for thinking Shape of Water shouldn't have won is bleeeeeeeh. People should be disappointed that it won for the reason I was--that it wasn't that great--not because it failed to speak for us all In These Dark Times or whatever.

Spinal's first mistake is that he still take RS seriously.

[Spinal]

The Oscar has always been all about awarding people who should have been awarded many times before, and that's what happened last night with Ivory, Goldman and Deakins.

I don't know. Were any of those people egregiously undeserving?

[Spinal]

Spinal's first mistake is that he still take RS seriously.

Ha! But it's one example of a sentiment I've seen expressed elsewhere.

[Pop Trash]

Ha! But it's one example of a sentiment I've seen expressed elsewhere.

Very true inc. half of my friends on facebook and letterboxd.

[Grouchy]

Well, that's true, Deakins did amazing work and BR2049 is surely the most gorgeous-looking film of the year. Haven't actually seen the other two.

[Spinal]

Oldman's performance is legit, I'd say. Certainly not like Pacino and Scent of a Woman. I would have gone with Kaluuya, but what he does in that movie is remarkable.

[Ezee E]

I figured Dafoe would be looped in that group, but Florida Project was apparently never watched outside of the critic groups.

He's in a promising role this year with Julian Schnabel this year, so maybe he'll get his due as playing another historical person, Vincent Van Gogh.

[Peng]

Am I the only one who doesn't get Tiffany Haddish? Every time I see her on TV she really doesn't seem that far away from the walking stereotypes that are noted Trump supporters Diamond & Silk.

I feel like she dialed herself down to tics when in awards show, which put her usual energy in a weird place. I enjoyed her on Girls Trip though and loved watching her on talk show. The youtube of her on Kimmel telling story about taking Will and Jada Smith to a swamp has been one of my go-to pick-me-ups.

[Peng]

The clip theme for anniversary may make the show long, but I rather enjoyed watching them. And it may have helped improved this year's clips for performances & films, since they are really good and give good representations for those who haven't seen them yet, especially for potentially hard ones to do/edit/pick like Lady Bird and Phantom Thread. Love how, in the three categories with clips for Lady Bird, they pit Metcalf's tough love against Ronan's harsh teen angst, then round it out in Best Pic with montage that sums up the relationship quite well. Well done on the Academy part.

Dying though at them choosing Manville's badass moment and Lewis' chic rant for Phantom Thread (then round it out with darkly romantic montage), which both get enthusiastic responses. Love it.

[Ezee E]

The clip theme for anniversary may make the show long, but I rather enjoyed watching them. And it may have helped improved this year's clips for performances & films, since they are really good and give good representations for those who haven't seen them yet, especially for potentially hard ones to do/edit/pick like Lady Bird and Phantom Thread. Love how, in the three categories with clips for Lady Bird, they pit Metcalf's tough love against Ronan's harsh teen angst, then round it out in Best Pic with montage that sums up the relationship quite well. Well done on the Academy part.

Dying though at them choosing Manville's badass moment and Lewis' chic rant for Phantom Thread (then round it out with darkly romantic montage), which both get enthusiastic responses. Love it.

So... I had to watch a stream of the Oscars since I was in an area with no TV and no free ABC.

The Lesley Manville scene had the reaction of, "Damnnnn... What's that movie?" That person would definitely have not liked the movie, but that bit definitely got her attention.

[Spinal]

I also enjoyed Gerwig mouthing the words "I love him!" during Guillermo's second speech.

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p485/joelharmonpdx/greta_zpsybabylsm.gif

[Kirby Avondale]

Pynchon, Pynchon, and Pynchon. I'm not saying each filmmaker needs to reinvent the wheel each time out; however, with Anderson, and Phantom Thread in particular, he seems to rely on cinematic and literary allusions as a substitute for character development. For instance, he names Vicky Kriep's character Alma and makes her Swedish so as to remind us of Persona but never gets around to explaining how a Swedish woman winds up working as a waitress in an English resort town in the 1950s. I don't see what's so high brow about calling a film out on lazy screenwriting.
I can't remember it ever being addressed. Since she didn't update her accent, I assumed Alma was from the same place as Krieps: Luxembourg. It wasn't ever identified, I guess, because it didn't really matter. I'm not convinced that Persona is especially a thing here.

[MadMan]

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p485/joelharmonpdx/greta_zpsybabylsm.gif

That was adorable.

Honestly as much as I liked Three Billboards, it rightfully lost aside from two acting wins. Also I get what Spinal is saying, and also I agree that ignoring RS is usually a good idea.

[MadMan]

Am I the only one who doesn't get Tiffany Haddish? Every time I see her on TV she really doesn't seem that far away from the walking stereotypes that are noted Trump supporters Diamond & Silk.

I thought her and Maya Rudolph were hilarious together.

[MadMan]

The clip theme for anniversary may make the show long, but I rather enjoyed watching them. And it may have helped improved this year's clips for performances & films, since they are really good and give good representations for those who haven't seen them yet, especially for potentially hard ones to do/edit/pick like Lady Bird and Phantom Thread. Love how, in the three categories with clips for Lady Bird, they pit Metcalf's tough love against Ronan's harsh teen angst, then round it out in Best Pic with montage that sums up the relationship quite well. Well done on the Academy part.

Dying though at them choosing Manville's badass moment and Lewis' chic rant for Phantom Thread (then round it out with darkly romantic montage), which both get enthusiastic responses. Love it.

The chic rant is one of my favorite scenes from PT.

[baby doll]

I can't remember it ever being addressed. Since she didn't update her accent, I assumed Alma was from the same place as Krieps: Luxembourg. It wasn't ever identified, I guess, because it didn't really matter. I'm not convinced that Persona is especially a thing here.Perhaps not but Rebecca certainly is a thing here, so I believe my larger point stands.

[Kirby Avondale]

Perhaps not but Rebecca certainly is a thing here, so I believe my larger point stands.
I don't feel its pull so much. I get the allusions and all that, but they added more flavor than content for me. I don't see them filling in some hole where dialogue expositing character history is supposed to go or anything, and I'm not convinced we need much more of the latter. We get Alma through Alma, learning about her through her actions, how she pictures herself, what her expectations and delusions are, what she's willing to stomach, where she's willing to go. Anderson doesn't seem as fascinated with a person's history than with in-the-moment illuminations of character, suggestive idiosyncrasies and weird co-dependencies. It's easy to toss some line in where Alma says she fled her home country to escape an abusive father (Gotcha! says our inner Freuds), but not so easy to take a relationship that strains credibility at the level of description and make it feel organic and strangely tenable in action. Pretty good case of show besting tell in that respect.

[Milky Joe]

I can't remember it ever being addressed. Since she didn't update her accent, I assumed Alma was from the same place as Krieps: Luxembourg. It wasn't ever identified, I guess, because it didn't really matter. I'm not convinced that Persona is especially a thing here.

The issue of Alma's backstory is addressed by PTA in this very interesting discussion with Alan Parker, somewhere towards the end.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3bKoDKPEVc

[Kirby Avondale]

The issue of Alma's backstory is addressed by PTA in this very interesting discussion with Alan Parker, somewhere towards the end.
Nice. Thanks for that.

[baby doll]

I don't feel its pull so much. I get the allusions and all that, but they added more flavor than content for me. I don't see them filling in some hole where dialogue expositing character history is supposed to go or anything, and I'm not convinced we need much more of the latter. We get Alma through Alma, learning about her through her actions, how she pictures herself, what her expectations and delusions are, what she's willing to stomach, where she's willing to go. Anderson doesn't seem as fascinated with a person's history than with in-the-moment illuminations of character, suggestive idiosyncrasies and weird co-dependencies. It's easy to toss some line in where Alma says she fled her home country to escape an abusive father (Gotcha! says our inner Freuds), but not so easy to take a relationship that strains credibility at the level of description and make it feel organic and strangely tenable in action. Pretty good case of show besting tell in that respect.I'm not asking for reams of expository dialogue accounting for every moment of the characters' lives preceding the film's opening scene; rather, it seems to me that the film relies on cinephile references to justify the characters' in-the-moment behaviour in the absence of any internal motivation. Thus, the characters are never anything more than the sum of their various traits, which often seem arbitrarily glued on.

[Dead & Messed Up]

I posted this in the film thread, but I suspected Alma as a name was meant to evoke Alma Hitchcock, Alfred's wife. I mean, Hitchcock/Woodcock. And all the Hitch connections.

Obviously that would never be a substitute for character clarity and development.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kirby Avondale]

I'm not asking for reams of expository dialogue accounting for every moment of the characters' lives preceding the film's opening scene;
I didn't figure. I doubted even the necessity of a line. In his interview with Parker, Anderson said he had some dialogue mentioning her wartime experience but ultimately felt it redundant when set against the performance. I share his sensibility on this point. I'm good with her reaction to talk of Jewish visas followed-up by a subsequent stripping of the drunken heiress. I think that gave me a better feel for her than a quick memory or (I dunno) a spin-off comic-book that flashes us back to her childhood.



rather, it seems to me that the film relies on cinephile references to justify the characters' in-the-moment behaviour in the absence of any internal motivation. Thus, the characters are never anything more than the sum of their various traits, which often seem arbitrarily glued on.
I'm just not particularly eat up with the movie references and they played little in my experience of the characters. As for them being an arbitrary assemblage of traits, I didn't get that impression obviously. Not sure which ones you consider spatchcocked onto them.

[baby doll]

I'm just not particularly eat up with the movie references and they played little in my experience of the characters. As for them being an arbitrary assemblage of traits, I didn't get that impression obviously. Not sure which ones you consider spatchcocked onto them.All the stuff with the ghost, for a start, which seems to have been grafted on to Woodcock's character simply to remind us of the story about Daniel Day-Lewis supposedly seeing the ghost of his own father during a performance of Hamlet.

[Lazlo]

All the stuff with the ghost, for a start, which seems to have been grafted on to Woodcock's character simply to remind us of the story about Daniel Day-Lewis supposedly seeing the ghost of his own father during a performance of Hamlet.

You bring this us as though it's a universal piece of knowledge. Thanks for enlightening us, but the percentage of moviegoers who hit upon that connection is probably whatever percentage you personally represent.

[Kirby Avondale]

All the stuff with the ghost, for a start, which seems to have been grafted on to Woodcock's character simply to remind us of the story about Daniel Day-Lewis supposedly seeing the ghost of his own father during a performance of Hamlet.
Was that meant as a reference? Day-Lewis says that's a myth; he was just exhausted after a protracted run.

The ghost mom seemed in keeping with his momma's boy background (warning signal number one: guy talking passionately about this mother on the first date). It's also in keeping with the undertones of the movie, which is narrated almost like a ghost story (phantom thread, hur?) complete with bookends by the fireside. Add to that little flourishes like "don't turn her into a ghost" and the kind of cloistered Victorian settings, and you've got a real Turn of the Screw vibe going, or The Innocents if we're supposed to stick to the cinephile track. That was my takeaway.

[baby doll]

You bring this us as though it's a universal piece of knowledge. Thanks for enlightening us, but the percentage of moviegoers who hit upon that connection is probably whatever percentage you personally represent.Whether or not it's common knowledge is beside the point (though it's widely enough known that Day-Lewis had to clarify in an interview that he hadn't "literally" seen the ghost of his father); the issue is whether or not there is any internal justification for its inclusion in the film.

[baby doll]

Was that meant as a reference? Day-Lewis says that's a myth; he was just exhausted after a protracted run.

The ghost mom seemed in keeping with his momma's boy background (warning signal number one: guy talking passionately about this mother on the first date). It's also in keeping with the undertones of the movie, which is narrated almost like a ghost story (phantom thread, hur?) complete with bookends by the fireside. Add to that little flourishes like "don't turn her into a ghost" and the kind of cloistered Victorian settings, and you've got a real Turn of the Screw vibe going, or The Innocents if we're supposed to stick to the cinephile track. That was my takeaway.Perhaps I'll have to watch it again, but all the stuff you just mentioned never really seemed to gel (at least for me) with the central relationship or the stuff about the world of haute couture. In other words, it seemed to me more like window dressing than an artistic necessity.