View Full Version : Spider-Man: Homecoming (Jon Watts)
Henry Gale
06-30-2017, 07:31 PM
IMDb (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2250912/) / Wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider-Man:_Homecoming)
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DDRyxJ5W0AEgFHu.jpg
Henry Gale
06-30-2017, 08:00 PM
It was only after the movie ended that I realized that Spider-Man operates best when it's not doom and gloom, but that pretty much every single big-screen adaptation of the character has concerned itself with dealing with major character deaths, strained romantic and family relationships, and or renouncing the costume. He was always in downtrodden, brooding inner turmoil, even when the movies were good, which almost made his ventures in costume a reluctance, with his snappy dialogue almost feeling ironic and at odds with how you knew he was really feeling.
Spider-Man: Homecoming is the first Spider-Man movie that just operates as pure, infectious fun with simultaneously latching onto a tone of vibrant adolescent energy and strong, emotional stakes all at once. The action is uniformly well-constructed, but the most gripping sequence is one without any effects or costumes at all, with nothing but static character coverage. All it involves is people driving in a car with very different perceptions of a situation, and it's easily one of the most intense stretches of superhero cinema I've ever seen.
The movie is just super funny, charming, effervescent, and keep its stakes very grounded and personal. Even though the film has gone through many drafts, you can feel the influence of John Francis Daley incorporating his Freaks and Geeks-shaped nature into it (with the added mind-boggle of now seeing Martin Starr play a teacher in it) and the oddball messiness of Chris McKenna's Community days (with Donald Glover popping up in the least Troy-like role imaginable). The film immerses you so effectively in the conflict of a high school kid having to juggle his own identity and social life while being Spider-Man that you don't need an added looming city destruction to make it relatable to you as an everyperson. It's easy to connect to and invest in because of how few players are involved. You see ramifications of the first Avengers film and the team is talked about so much, but it's always from the lens of a wide-eyed kid who's had a fleeting, wild connection to it all. Also, anyone still worried about Downey's Stark overwhelming the film, you don't need to. There are even Iron Man bits from the trailer that feel like they were created just for the marketing.
Might just be Top 5, even Top 3, of the MCU for me (despite feeling so like its own type of movie), which is extra remarkable considering how impossible this movie felt like it would be only a few years ago. When Giacchino's version of that music played over the Marvel Studios logo, I got serious chills and even slightly choked up. Homecoming, indeed.
Dukefrukem
06-30-2017, 08:49 PM
I can't believe I have to wait 7 days to see this.
Philip J. Fry
07-02-2017, 01:24 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV_BTUGPg7U
transmogrifier
07-05-2017, 01:32 PM
This is the best Spider-man film, but then I don't really like the Raimi films, so there's that. It's also a Marvel film through and through, which means it is safe and predictable and very much concerned with brand extension. It does benefit enormously from the fact it's not another origin story, and it plays best when focusing on how Peter tries to balance regular life with superhero life, and it is very funny when it does that. It's no accident that the best action sequence comes when the two combine at the Washington Monument, where there are actual stakes (and an actual sense of physical danger!). Unfortunately, these things need a plot, so we get a totally ridiculous ferry set piece, which makes no sense on a simple physics level. And then we go into Crazy Stupid Love territory for the "surprise" reveal, which sends the film rushing way too fast into the end game (and the way the film reveals it - as a surprise - robs the antagonist of a chance to actually show some depth and react to the Washington Monument thing as it happens, but here it is a two-second throwaway line in the car), which culminates in yet another noisy, frenetic, totally ridiculous big action scene (I mean, it is chock full of dumb).
Still, it has by far the best post-credits scene of any Marvel movie, so it has that going for it.
Dukefrukem
07-05-2017, 02:50 PM
I need your yay/nay vote and ranking with other MCU films immediately.
transmogrifier
07-05-2017, 10:21 PM
Guardians of the Galaxy - 69
The Avengers - 69
Ant-Man - 67
Captain America: Winter Soldier - 64
Iron Man 3 - 64
Captain America: First Avenger - 64
Spider-Man: Homecoming - 64
Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 - 64
Dr. Strange - 58
Iron Man 2 - 58
Captain America: Civil War - 56
Iron Man - 55
The Incredible Hulk - 55
Avengers: Age of Ultron - 55
Thor - 51
Cinematic fast food.
So all between 3/5 and 3.5/5 stars. That is actually better than what I expected.
Dukefrukem
07-06-2017, 03:04 PM
I watched First Avenger and half of Winter Soldier yesterday. I appreciate First Avenger much more the more I watch it. If you were to somehow add in Russo Bros action it may be one of the best in the MCU.
Henry Gale
07-06-2017, 05:54 PM
Unfortunately, these things need a plot, so we get a totally ridiculous ferry set piece, which makes no sense on a simple physics level. And then we go into Crazy Stupid Love territory for the "surprise" reveal, which sends the film rushing way too fast into the end game (and the way the film reveals it - as a surprise - robs the antagonist of a chance to actually show some depth and react to the Washington Monument thing as it happens, but here it is a two-second throwaway line in the car), which culminates in yet another noisy, frenetic, totally ridiculous big action scene (I mean, it is chock full of dumb).
I didn't want to mention it before, but I will say this was the biggest "You either go with it, or you don't" moment for me, and I'm surprised that most people seemed to have been as cool with it as they have been, especially since, like you say, it takes a major element of emotional context from that reaction, having to reveal it when they do. And the film you cite exactly came to mind, but that was a case where I decidedly did not think it helped that film's story. It helped that I went with as soon as I did, because I thought that chauffeur scene was tremendous.
My biggest nagging issue over time with it is that with his Stark-designed suit and "Karen", it kinda turns Spider-Man into Young Iron Man & Jarvis for a significant chunk of the movie. The redemption being that the final act (via Tony's speechifying and fathering) largely confronts this, forcing him to play hero without the high-tech super-suit, but in the majority of the time he is in it, it still feels pretty dissonant to what his superhero nature should be, him not knowing what web he's shooting and such. And I do get that from a screenwriting standpoint it's a huge help because it gives him someone for him to talk to aloud on screen, therefore we can spend more time with him in the suit without us losing his voice, etc.,
but to me this was the most detrimental MCU infusion. Also the fact that he doesn't seem as aware of how able he is to physically latch onto things as other cinematic iterations, and the fact that there is never a clearly conveyed instance of his Spider Sense. Unless they want to have him grow into certain abilities like that, to further the puberty parallels.
Skitch
07-06-2017, 08:30 PM
I appreciate First Avenger much more the more I watch it. If you were to somehow add in Russo Bros action it may be one of the best in the MCU.
One of the most underrated in the MCU. The mixed response still annoys me. I really like that movie.
transmogrifier
07-06-2017, 10:23 PM
So all between 3/5 and 3.5/5 stars. That is actually better than what I expected.
I seldom hate them, but don't really love any of them either. They just exist - my wife enjoys them, so we watch them together.
transmogrifier
07-06-2017, 10:28 PM
I didn't want to mention it before, but I will say this was the biggest "You either go with it, or you don't" moment for me, and I'm surprised that most people seemed to have been as cool with it as they have been, especially since, like you say, it takes a major element of emotional context from that reaction, having to reveal it when they do. And the film you cite exactly came to mind, but that was a case where I decidedly did not think it helped that film's story. It helped that I went with as soon as I did, because I thought that chauffeur scene was tremendous..
I think it was a terrible choice in the end, because it sacrifices WAY too much of the Vulture's character, who is thinly sketched and totally wasted in the end. It would have been simple to let the audience in on it early and then let Peter figure it out later, but they wanted that dumb gotcha moment. Also, the film misses out on a HUGE opportunity immediately after the car scene: I was hoping Peter would go to the dance and spend some time hanging out and enjoying himself with his date, basically be seduced by the idea of letting things go for his own pleasure/peace of mind. Instead, they just rush through everything to get to the dumb plane thing. Also, because of the gotcha twist, the speed at which Keaton figures everything else doesn't really track....
Winston*
07-06-2017, 11:35 PM
I seldom hate them, but don't really love any of them either.
The reason they almost all get good tomatometer scores.
Dukefrukem
07-07-2017, 01:57 AM
LOVED this.
Everything about this movie tonely is perfect. I was giddy in my seat. Parker in high school. Vulture's origin. The tie-ins with the first Avengers. Basically the setup is done in the shortest, most efficient way, without having to have to explain who spider-man is, where he comes from, and what his powers are. That's the advantage of having the MCU to work with.
I kept thinking to myself, the stakes are so small compared to previous Marvel films, but they are so large for Peter. And that's why the tension feels so great. The city, state or planet doesn't need to be in jeopardy for a film to feel like the character has a purpose. That's exactly what transpires- small scale set pieces; the Washington Monument, The Ferry and a small 727.
And hilarious. By far the funniest film in the MCU. It makes me want to watch it again because there's so much joy on screen. There's no brooding. What I have to struggle with now, is whether or not this is my favorite spider-man film. If it is, it's also my favorite comic-book movie.
Dukefrukem
07-07-2017, 02:07 AM
1. Spider-man: Homecoming N/A
2. The Avengers 2012 ★★★★★
3. Captain America: The Winter Soldier 2014 ★★★★★
4. Captain America: Civil War 2016 ★★★★★
5. Avengers: Age of Ultron 2015 ★★★★½
6. Guardians of the Galaxy 2014 ★★★★½
7. Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 2017 ★★★★
8. Ant-Man 2015 ★★★★
9. Doctor Strange 2016 ★★★★
10. Iron Man 2008 ★★★★
11. Iron Man 3 2013 ★★★★
12. Captain America: The First Avenger 2011 ★★★½
13. Thor 2011 ★★★½
14. Iron Man 2 2010 ★★
15. The Incredible Hulk 2008 ★★½
16. Thor: The Dark World 2013
transmogrifier
07-07-2017, 12:00 PM
Another couple of things that annoyed me about the film:
- the new suit was far too Iron Man-ish for me. I get that Iron Man and RDJ are the crown jewels of the universe, so you want to cram them in everything as much as possible, but it's getting a bit boring now.
- some people say The Vulture is one of the best villains in the MCU. It's not true though; he COULD have been, but he's underwritten (because of the aforementioned desire to have a gotcha moment) and more nakedly a plot convenience than many other villains.
- Marisa Tomei is wasted.
- the loud whispering at school about being Spider-man. Come on idiots, everyone can hear that shit.
Dukefrukem
07-07-2017, 01:20 PM
Not sure if you're up to date on the MCU plans trans, but Spider-man is going to become the new Iron Man in Phase 4. So they are pretty much setting up Tony Stark's death- hence the Spidey Suit.
transmogrifier
07-07-2017, 01:40 PM
Eh. The links between individual movies is by far the least interesting thing about the entire MCU for me. (For example, I could not give less of a shit about the Infinity Stones or Thanos yet, because why should I?.)
Actually, make that the second least interesting - the actual least interesting is reading about future directions of the MCU :)
Dukefrukem
07-07-2017, 01:51 PM
Fair. The weird thing about the suit though, it basically replaces Spidey Sense, which it didn't feel like Peter had. Not sure if it's a power he hasn't learned how to use yet but there was't one moment where it appeared he was anticipating getting hit. And he got hit a lot.
transmogrifier
07-07-2017, 02:06 PM
Fair. The weird thing about the suit though, it basically replaces Spidey Sense, which it didn't feel like Peter had. Not sure if it's a power he hasn't learned how to use yet but there was't one moment where it appeared he was anticipating getting hit. And he got hit a lot.
See, not being a comic book guy at all, I have no issues with any liberties taken with how Spider-man "works" so to speak or his backstory - I just wish I wasn't watching another Iron Man clone, because I've seen that already. It was fine the first 10 times or so.
EDIT: Still, the first half of the movie is very engaging, funny, and well-directed, and the reason I'm positive on this. Just like 90% of the other films in the MCU, a rewrite of the third act would have done wonders.
The M in MCU clearly stands for Mediocre at this point. That was easily the weakest Spidey yet. Spider-Man? More like Spider-Meh, amiright?
The found footage shit at the beginning was the best part. That, and I liked the girl they cast as MJ. But after seeing this movie? Yeah, Andrew Garfield > Tobey Maguire > Tom Holland.
That post-credits scene was nice, tho. :p
Dukefrukem
07-07-2017, 05:23 PM
No you are not right. And found footage part at the beginning was the WORST part.
It was the only part with any semblance of charm. The older movies may at times be problematic, but they all have a certain charm that goes completely missing in this conveyor belt bullshit. This movie, like Ant-Man, was aggressively mediocre.
Another couple of things that annoyed me about the film:
- the new suit was far too Iron Man-ish for me. I get that Iron Man and RDJ are the crown jewels of the universe, so you want to cram them in everything as much as possible, but it's getting a bit boring now.
- some people say The Vulture is one of the best villains in the MCU. It's not true though; he COULD have been, but he's underwritten (because of the aforementioned desire to have a gotcha moment) and more nakedly a plot convenience than many other villains.
- Marisa Tomei is wasted.
- the loud whispering at school about being Spider-man. Come on idiots, everyone can hear that shit.
Agreed with all of this. For much of the movie, I felt like I was watching Iron-Man Lite.
Dukefrukem
07-07-2017, 06:17 PM
It was the only part with any semblance of charm. The older movies may at times be problematic, but they all have a certain charm that goes completely missing in this conveyor belt bullshit. This movie, like Ant-Man, was aggressively mediocre.
I'll buy Ant-Man being mediocre because they had to pull in a director last minute when they fired Wright.
This film, was like, the exact opposite of mediocre and had charm coming out of it's ears. It's so weird to me that your nailing this movie for not having charm when you YAYed Power Rangers, the most bland, charmless, barely-a-screenplay movie of 2017.
I'll buy Ant-Man being mediocre because they had to pull in a director last minute when they fired Wright.
This film, was like, the exact opposite of mediocre and had charm coming out of it's ears. It's so weird to me that your nailing this movie for not having charm when you YAYed Power Rangers, the most bland, charmless, barely-a-screenplay movie of 2017.
I'll take Power Rangers any day of the week over this movie. There's SO much more fun, charm, and better writing and genuine character moments in PR than there is in any single second of this film.
Dukefrukem
07-07-2017, 06:49 PM
I'll take Power Rangers any day of the week over this movie. There's SO much more fun, charm, and better writing and genuine character moments in PR than there is in any single second of this film.
https://media.giphy.com/media/6niIcVJf6Ddfy/giphy.gif
Skitch
07-07-2017, 07:14 PM
Fair. The weird thing about the suit though, it basically replaces Spidey Sense, which it didn't feel like Peter had. Not sure if it's a power he hasn't learned how to use yet but there was't one moment where it appeared he was anticipating getting hit. And he got hit a lot.
I read an article somewhere where the director said he purposefully didn't include Spidey Sense because he didn't like it. So at this point, he doesn't have Spidey Sense.
Guardians of the Galaxy
Iron Man 3
The Avengers
Captain America: Civil War
Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2
Captain America: The First Avenger
Thor: The Dark World
Iron Man
Thor
The Incredible Hulk
Avenger: Age of Ultron
Doctor Strange
Captain America: The Winter Soldier
Spider-Man: Homecoming
Ant-Man
Iron Man 2
megladon8
07-09-2017, 01:29 AM
Okay so, if he doesn't have Spidey Sense...and his web shooters are mechanical...what exactly makes him spider-like in this movie?
He's fit? Like...a...spider?
There's something I can't quite pinpoint about this year's Marvel films, and with what I've seen so far of Thor: Raknarok that might possibly continue the trend as well. I came out of both this and Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 slightly disappointed at first because I thought I would like it more, and then as time passed the films registered a little better in my mind as I reflected on them, to the point of loving most of it even as I concede them to be interesting but messy fun.
Maybe it's the stress on moments of infectious joy and true-to-character-and-comic spirit at the expense of the bigger picture? Not big picture as in interconnecting the MCU but as in the whole being more than the sum of its parts. In this case, I never feel Homecoming's many intensely likeable parts cohereing to a whole so I lose interest in the plot from time to time, but then moments like Tom Holland's overeager teenage expressions or the camera being in synch with his vertigo during the excellent Washington Monument scene would pull me back in. A great cast's high energy and the whole film's tone being frenzied right along with this version of Spider-man's worldview also help the overbusy, lurching pacing go down smoother. But I dunno. A rewatch of both Vol. 2 and this would do wonder to clarify how I feel about this year's strange MCU entries. 7/10
Captain America: Civil War (2016)
The Avengers (2012)
Avengers: Age of Ultron (2015)
Guardians of the Galaxy (2014)
Captain America: The Winter Soldier (2014)
Thor (2011)
Iron Man 3 (2013)
Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 (2017)
Iron Man (2008)
Spider-Man: Homecoming (2017)
Doctor Strange (2016)
Captain America: The First Avenger (2011)
Iron Man 2 (2010)
Ant-Man (2015)
The Incredible Hulk (2008)
Thor: The Dark World (2013)
Dead & Messed Up
07-09-2017, 04:16 PM
There's something I can't quite pinpoint about this year's Marvel films, and with what I've seen so far of Thor: Raknarok that might possibly continue the trend as well. I came out of both this and Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 slightly disappointed at first because I thought I would like it more, and then as time passed the films registered a little better in my mind as I reflected on them, to the point of loving most of it even as I concede them to be interesting but messy fun.
Maybe it's the stress on moments of infectious joy and true-to-character-and-comic spirit at the expense of the bigger picture? Not big picture as in interconnecting the MCU but as in the whole being more than the sum of its parts. In this case, I never feel Homecoming's many intensely likeable parts cohereing to a whole so I lose interest in the plot from time to time, but then moments like Tom Holland's overeager teenage expressions or the camera being in synch with his vertigo during the excellent Washington Monument scene would pull me back in. A great cast's high energy and the whole film's tone being frenzied right along with this version of Spider-man's worldview also help the overbusy, lurching pacing go down smoother. But I dunno. A rewatch of both Vol. 2 and this would do wonder to clarify how I feel about this year's strange MCU entries. 7/10
I liked how Film Crit Hulk put it recently: studio movies have gotten better at tone maintenance but worse at storytelling. That might have some connection to your concern about the film not "cohering into a whole."
Keaton is great. Holland is fun. Not enough Zendaya. The casting here is top notch all around...
BUT the film never builds to anything... its a slow decline into the not so marvelous Marvel stuff.
Henry Gale
07-10-2017, 03:10 PM
I learned Jennifer Connelly played the voice of Suit Lady / Karen after the movie ended, but I totally didn't put it together until Marc Bernardin pointed it out that of course she is...
http://www.gotceleb.com/wp-content/uploads/photos/jennifer-connelly/avengers-age-of-ultron-screening-in-nyc/Jennifer-Connelly:-Avengers-Age-of-Ultron-NY-Screening--13.jpg
Ezee E
07-10-2017, 03:45 PM
The bad thing about the connected universes now is that you can't really have a "one-off" movie anymore like Logan.
Haven't watched this yet. The thoughts here temper my anticipation a bit.
What major villains are left? I always thought Kraven would be a great villain to have as a guy who's planning to just track down a superhero for prey, and Spider-Man is his target.
Dukefrukem
07-10-2017, 03:50 PM
The bad thing about the connected universes now is that you can't really have a "one-off" movie anymore like Logan.
Haven't watched this yet. The thoughts here temper my anticipation a bit.
What major villains are left? I always thought Kraven would be a great villain to have as a guy who's planning to just track down a superhero for prey, and Spider-Man is his target.
Are you asking what major villains are left for Spider-man? Or what major villains are left in Marvel? Because each super hero has like 37 villains and each one of those villains doesn't have to "blow up the world". Which is why I love this movie so much. The whole plot is (not really a spoiler just Spider-man and the villain's relationship- but it's not listed in the synopsis so I'm spoilering it) Spider-man needs to stop a guy from selling weapons on the black market And what makes it work so well, is the movie is constantly showcasing how inexperienced both Spider-man and the villains are. Which serves as a plot device to how Peter deals with this balance of wanting to be a superhero and wanting to be cool in high school.
Watashi
07-12-2017, 06:03 AM
I can't imagine anyone preferring the two Garfield Spider-Man films over this. Those movies are so so so so so so bad.
[ETM]
07-12-2017, 08:59 AM
I thought Garfield was excellent but had to work with far worse material. I don't prefer him over Holland or vice versa, but I appreciate their different takes. I've pretty much forgotten about Maguire at this point.
Dukefrukem
07-12-2017, 12:21 PM
I can't imagine anyone preferring the two Garfield Spider-Man films over this. Those movies are so so so so so so bad.
Does this exist??
Dukefrukem
07-12-2017, 12:24 PM
;573793']I thought Garfield was excellent but had to work with far worse material. I don't prefer him over Holland or vice versa, but I appreciate their different takes. I've pretty much forgotten about Maguire at this point.
After re-watching the end of ASM1 and beginning of ASM2 (only because they have been playing all five movies on every channel for the past 2 weeks), Garfield wasn't all that great at being Peter Parker. He does a lot of repeating the same lines over and over, which comes across as someone trying to play a young kid, rather than what Holland did in this movie.
I will admit, the chemistry between him and Emma Stone in the second movie is pretty great though.
Wryan
07-16-2017, 04:24 AM
This was charming and breezy, light on its feet, goes down like a nice midday pick-me-up snack. Not much weight beyond Keaton's intensity and the surprisingly successful menace of the Vulture suit. Feels more like a half-sequel that plays on TV rather than a full movie in its own right, but it has a good bit of fun before the credits roll. Holland brings a lot of the right energy. Sort of funny that a major plot point is Peter basically trying out for the Avengers when this movie hits more or less the same tone. Close, but not quiiite there.
Grouchy
07-21-2017, 05:13 PM
Great fun. I was anticipating to dislike some aspects that I ended up warming up to, such as the high-tech suit and the surrogate father relationship with Stark.
A movie like this needs a great villain and Keaton and the writers deliver - this version of the Vulture is a great character on his own right since he's essentially correct in his criticism of Tony Stark. I was practically on his side despite wanting Peter to succeed because of who he is. I also loved the reference to the classic Spiderman story "If This Be My Destiny". There are a couple of Spidey action sequences that are set up spectacularly and then not given much room to breathe or ruined by hammering the point home with v.o. I also wish it was more of a New York movie although I think the different locations were included intentionally.
http://comicsalliance.com/files/2016/02/IfThisBeMyDestiny.jpg
Ivan Drago
08-04-2017, 01:51 AM
The partnership between Sony and Marvel for the third Spider-Man movie in five years does a lot differently from the majority of movies in the Marvel Cinematic Universe: it has a great, fleshed out villain with a terrific performance by Michael Keaton, it grounds itself in realism as much as it can given the source material, and the film creates a fresh supporting cast around Tom Holland, who is a solid Peter Parker. Like most Marvel movies, it's also really funny and provides entertaining action sequences. Unfortunately, the inner conflict that makes Spider-Man who he is is missing from this movie in favor of restricting itself to the same old formulaic story structure of most Marvel movies. Spider-Man: Homecoming is a very entertaining addition to the MCU, but there's not much going for it beyond that.
Dukefrukem
08-11-2017, 01:18 AM
http://i.imgur.com/SB4HYk1.jpg
number8
09-09-2017, 09:01 PM
Went to see this today. It's ok. I loved the first 30 minutes, but was quickly bored by the actual Vulture plot. Kinda just wanted a movie of him fighting muggers in Queens while navigating high school life. The latter was so charming and well done, and the former is the most sense of location any Marvel thing has conveyed. It's a better snap of NY than any of the Netflix shows.
Chris Evans was great in it, as was Hannibal Buress. "Pretty sure he's a war criminal now, but whatever."
How do Wonder Woman and Guardians have more nays than this? o.O
Dukefrukem
09-09-2017, 09:40 PM
This is the better movie.
Skitch
09-09-2017, 09:51 PM
Chris Evans Hannibal Buress.
I didn't know either was in this, and now I really want to see it.
number8
09-09-2017, 09:56 PM
It's not a surprise to me that the homecoming car scene is a better set piece than any of the action scenes, given my familiarity of Watts' style via Cop Car. The action scenes are very bland. I get why they hire people like Webb and Watts because they want to focus on the charm (Watts was much more successful than Webb in this regard), but what's missing in both this version and the Garfield ones is the sense of movement being replicated in the visual style. Raimi's camera moved and showed unique perspectives in a way that this just doesn't, and I feel like this is a really critical omission when it comes to Spidey of all superheroes.
Skitch
09-09-2017, 10:02 PM
Agreed. I still get goosebumps at some of Raimi's swinging scenes, and I am actively annoyed by Elfman scores, so it doubley annoys me that his musical swells can still work on me. Call it '89 Batman Hangover.
This is the better movie.
It's totally not, though.
transmogrifier
09-09-2017, 10:57 PM
It's totally not, though.
It's definitely better than the uber-bland Wonder Woman. Kind of a tie with the GOTG2
Grouchy
09-09-2017, 11:06 PM
On retrospect, that car scene was the peak of the film for me.
Irish
09-27-2017, 12:34 AM
I thought this was lame. The cast was ace, but the movie was lame.
- The attempted character arc didn't work. Peter is less competent than Inspector Gadget or The Tick, and he shares their lack of self awareness. I always found the character's isolation to be a defining trait, and something that made him more interesting than his costumed peers. But in this movie, Peter has a massive support system--in money, materials, and emotion--everywhere he turns. It undercuts the already limited stakes and turns Parker into a more generic hero. The script uses Stark to pull a deux ex twice, removing Parker's agency, and this completely killed my interest.
- I thought they would build on early scenes more. There was a chance to do some interesting character work when the ATM thieves destroyed the bodega and then again when Vulture killed someone. Maybe Peter realizes how dangerous being a hero can be and gets scared off. Maybe Vulture goes from a petty, local criminal to a guy who likes to kill. But no, the movie just skips ahead to the next whatever.
- The villains must've looked awful on paper. They spend most of their time talking about one thing and hanging around a warehouse. Keaton and Woodbine gave dull characters real life.
- The movie kinda wants to be serious and kinda wants to be funny, but I think if you go the route they tried to go, everything needed to be played more broadly.
- Vulture's costume was fucking cool and a great piece of production design.
- The first, I dunno, half dozen cameos cameos were sorta fun. But they kept adding more and more and more. It started to grate. The Glover role was distracting and me wistful for what might have been.
- All of Ned's lines could have been reduced to "That's awesome!" and had the same impact. Love interest Liz had no discernible personality. The rest of the kids are so dorky that they'd get picked on by Skreech from "Saved by the Bell." FFS, even the school bully is on the Academic Decathlon team. I know it's Disney, but this movie tried way too hard to be wholesome.
- I wish Zendaya had more scenes. She has charisma and her character had personality. I don't know why they sidelined her. I kinda wished "Homecoming" was a teen comedy about her rather than another lifeless superhero vehicle.
- Shout out to the Lego / Star Wars product placement. Real subtle there, Disney.
- This is the second Spider-man movie where the villain is the father of someone close to the hero and the second MCU movie where there's a climactic fight scene on an airplane. (Speaking of which: The image of an out of control plane rushing toward the NYC skyline was tacky. Maybe somebody on the production team shoulda noticed? Or maybe they did and they didn't care?)
- There's that adage about how a movie needs "three good scenes and no bad ones." This didn't have any bad scenes, but it didn't have any good ones either.
- This is one of the best reviewed movies in the MCU. What the hell is wrong with critics? I get that it's popcorn stuff and summer fun, but why champion something that's so aggressively mediocre?
- IB4 Skitch says he "liked it." ;)
Skitch
09-27-2017, 12:42 AM
- IB4 Skitch says he "liked it." ;)
What?
Dukefrukem
09-27-2017, 12:43 AM
What?
In before
Welcome to the team, Irish. ;)
Skitch
09-27-2017, 04:45 AM
In before
Still lost.
transmogrifier
09-27-2017, 11:14 AM
- This is one of the best reviewed movies in the MCU. What the hell is wrong with critics? I get that it's popcorn stuff and summer fun, but why champion something that's so aggressively mediocre?
For me, the headscratcher is Dr. Strange. So formulaic and tired - and it's the best (or second best? idk) reviewed MCU movie
They're both headscratchers in that regard.
Dukefrukem
09-27-2017, 12:14 PM
Welcome to the team, Irish. ;)
Irish's critique makes sense. You saying this movie has no charm does not.
What was charming about this movie?
Dukefrukem
09-27-2017, 12:33 PM
just to name a few:
Young people problems
Ned and Parker's relationship
Parker's relationship with his classmates
A kid who is new at being a superhero (who makes mistakes)
A villain who is new at being a super villain (who makes mistakes)
Parker and Happy
Parker and his Aunt
Dukefrukem
09-27-2017, 12:35 PM
Oh and the ending.
Doesn't make sense to me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
number8
09-27-2017, 01:58 PM
The rest of the kids are so dorky that they'd get picked on by Skreech from "Saved by the Bell." FFS, even the school bully is on the Academic Decathlon team. I know it's Disney, but this movie tried way too hard to be wholesome.
I think they glossed this over in the movie other than set dressing, but Peter's school in the movie is called Midtown Science High. It's modeled very heavily after the Bronx High School of Science (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bronx_High_School_of_Scien ce) (down to the school logo), which is a specialized STEM-focused high school. Pretty much every student who attend there is a really smart nerd.
number8
09-27-2017, 02:00 PM
This doesn't really have anything to do with the current convo but I posted this on FB a few days ago. Thought I'd repost it here.
So the movie's been out for months, right? It's safe for me to mention my favorite part from SPIDER-MAN: HOMECOMING? Because it's when Spider-Man got stuck in the Vulture's trap and started crying because he's scared.
When else do you typically see that in action movies, let alone superhero movies? In films, the rare instances that male action heroes are shown crying without it being framed as a joke, it's usually because they had just lost a loved one. Harry Osborn for Tobey Maguire's Spidey, Gwen Stacy for Andrew Garfield's Spidey, plus countless vigilantes whose cardboard wives or daughters were slaughtered to provide motive; but those are tears they shed to punctuate their care of others, as a socially acceptable extension of their heroic masculinity. It's crafting a performance of vulnerability based on the physical vulnerability of others, rather than their own.
Tom Holland's Spidey, however, was trapped under rubble and started crying because he was hurt and he didn't want to die but Iron Daddy and others weren't around to save him when he called for help. This is such a great image to paint with a superhero character. It's letting go of the nonsensical pretense that a man has to maintain bravery and present an idealized masculine front even when he's justifiably scared shitless, lest he be unqualified to be a male role model. This film not only doesn't shame Holland's Spider-Man for openly showing his anxiety, it shows him getting back up and immediately jumping into more dangerous situations, directly defying the notion that men who cry in frustration or fear are ineffectual.
Anyway, just thought I'd say all this because I stubbed my toe a few minutes ago and started crying and I believe that makes me very heroic.
Dukefrukem
09-27-2017, 02:23 PM
I'm sad you post that kind of analysis on Facebook and not here.
Irish
09-27-2017, 05:02 PM
I think they glossed this over in the movie other than set dressing, but Peter's school in the movie is called Midtown Science High. It's modeled very heavily after the Bronx High School of Science (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bronx_High_School_of_Scien ce) (down to the school logo), which is a specialized STEM-focused high school. Pretty much every student who attend there is a really smart nerd.
Oh, hehe, I know Bronx Science. (But that's a story for a different time.)
It wasn't about them being nerds, or even nerdy. It was that they were boring, and the nerds I knew in high school were anything but boring. The kids in "Homecoming" are sweet a good natured to a fault. They're like nerd saints.
I wouldn't expect Disney to present full on Heathers / Clueless / 10 Things I Hate About You or anything but I would expect them to give the characters discernible personalities, to be smarter than they were here, and maybe not so absolutely cowed by authority. The only one had any life to them was the girl played by Zendaya.
Prime example: When Ned "hacks" into the suit and Peter asks him to turn off training-wheel mode, the kid says, "But that might be illegal!" No self respecting highschool nerd would talk like that to one of their peers.
They weren't so much nerds as dorks.
number8
09-27-2017, 05:10 PM
That's fair, although I think the point was to make Peter the reckless irresponsible nerd of their nerd group. I did like that since they chose to set it in that kind of school, they had to make Flash Thompson the academic version of a jock.
I really wish there was more Zendaya in this.
Irish
09-27-2017, 05:12 PM
Tom Holland's Spidey, however, was trapped under rubble and started crying because he was hurt and he didn't want to die but Iron Daddy and others weren't around to save him when he called for help. This is such a great image to paint with a superhero character.
On the whole, I agree with you. It's absolutely refreshing to see a hero portrayed that way, especially in this type of movie.
I would have respected the moment and the character more if he had been trying and failing all that time alone---the way he's often portrayed in the comics---and then got hurt and frustrated. That would have made him more human and relatable. Crying out for Daddy Stark made him seem weaker and more immature.
Irish
09-27-2017, 05:29 PM
just to name a few:
Young people problems
Ned and Parker's relationship
Parker's relationship with his classmates
A kid who is new at being a superhero (who makes mistakes)
A villain who is new at being a super villain (who makes mistakes)
Parker and Happy
Parker and his Aunt
I agree that all of this is charming, to one degree or another, but what makes it work is the cast, not the material. Holland, Zendaya, Keaton, Tomei, Woodbine were all absolutely ace. There only reason this movie wasn't dull as hell is because each of them put energy and verve into their performances.
But -- and it's a big but -- the ceaseless Marvel cross-marketing sucked the life out of everything. Instead of a movie about how power means responsibility, we got a movie about how cool it would be to be an Avenger.
Dukefrukem
09-27-2017, 05:32 PM
In the movie's defense, the whole 'with great power comes great responsibility' angle... is played the fuck out.
Irish
09-27-2017, 05:39 PM
In the movie's defense, the whole 'with great power comes great responsibility' angle... is played the fuck out.
That's true, at least in the ostentatious way it's been played before. But this version didn't have an "Uncle Ben" moment---the moment where Peter realizes that, gee, maybe he shouldn't be in this solely for himself---until the last 10 minutes and it sorely needed it.
I guess my bigger problem is that outside Tony calling him to the carpet, he doesn't face any responsibility. None of the characters hold him accountable, even for minor things like ditching out of a party or skipping the Decathlon (I think he gets detention, which he skips out on immediately and, again, nobody gives a shit.) This felt a little weird in a high school movie where a powerful adult shows up every 20 minutes, like clockwork.
For me, the lack of responsibility made his change of heart at the end of the movie feel false and unearned. I liked what they were going for, but I don't think they did it well.
It's like, gee, how enormously fucking big of you, Peter. You're choosing not to be a YouTube star. What a hero.
Skitch
11-28-2017, 12:19 PM
Wow. I'll rewatch to reevaluate, but gut reaction after first watch says the is only worse Spider-Man movie than this is Amazing Spider-Man 2. Not that this is garbage, but its just bland vanilla nothing. Kinda surprised Marvel fan gives this Vulture take a pass as its bares almost no resemblance to the comic book character I think I know. Keaton is cool, but I don't recall Vulture being Robo-thief.
Wryan
11-28-2017, 12:36 PM
It's like, gee, how enormously fucking big of you, Peter. You're choosing not to be a YouTube star. What a hero.
It's 2017. That is heroic!
Irish
11-28-2017, 03:05 PM
This might be the movie the cured me of Marvel. Whenever I think about maybe seeing "Ragnarok" or "Avengers III," I remember this film and my interest just dies.
DavidSeven
12-06-2017, 11:45 PM
I really don't know how to personally rate or rank these things anymore. They are all so samesie in structure and look. The jokes-per-minute directive is always followed, so it always sort of feels like the same kind of experience, even if it is a consistently entertaining one. No one is going to write an interesting film essay deconstructing this thing, but whatever, as pure entertainment, it's pretty good, I guess.
Dukefrukem
12-07-2017, 11:40 AM
Everyone keeps saying these MCU movies are the same. And excluding Iron Man and Doctor Strange here, how is this movie the same as all the other movies?
Philip J. Fry
12-29-2021, 03:02 AM
'Twas fine. Holland is a good Spidey and Keaton is a good addition here. Also I really enjoyed Peter's buddy finding out and being the sidekick, though I wish the movie hand't leaned so much into the Tony + the Avengers thing so much. I get it's part of the Marvel formula and shit, but it makes Peter feel secondary in his own freaking movie. Average movie all the way.
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