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TGM
06-02-2017, 04:03 PM
WONDER WOMAN

Director: Patty Jenkins

imdb (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0451279/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1)

TGM
06-02-2017, 04:05 PM
I honestly left a little underwhelmed, but I think that has more to do with the fact that the last 10-15 minutes are seriously really bad, entering into that generic 2000s superhero movie territory all of a sudden. But the thing is, prior to that, the movie's honestly really great, so it's a bit of a shame that it leaves off on such a sour note, and really unfair to the rest of the movie. I really wish they could've found a better and more tonally appropriate way to end it.

Henry Gale
06-03-2017, 05:15 AM
Hey! They made a good one!

The best thing I can say is that it really knows when and how to slow down and give us beautiful character moments with almost tranquil, humming warmth to them.

It's not without its faults but in the end I care less about those things and more about how impressed I was overall. Even managed the whole eliciting real, significant emotions outta me that this universe had yet to prior to this point.

Mal
06-03-2017, 06:04 AM
This movie killed me. I am dead.

Skitch
06-03-2017, 01:17 PM
This movie killed me. I am dead.

What?

Wryan
06-03-2017, 02:12 PM
Spoilers ahead:

This was nice, sometimes even quite good, with some odd moments and surprisingly dodgy special effects here and there (apparently we still haven't quite gotten the bodies-flying-thru-air thing to look good, but I was forced to see it in 3D so maybe it all looked better in non). Probably the best thing about it is its earnestness. Pretty much anytime the movie has Diana coming to terms with the reality of man's behavior and slowly dismantling her own preconceptions about them, the movie is in fine form. Those personal moments might be better than the action, really. Weirdly, it kind of reminded me of the first X-Men movie--exciting because it is what it is but also clearly "surpassable" in future movies. The writing was not so good at times, and that moment when Ludendorff and Poisonette gas the staff and share a cackle outside the room made me think we'd wandered into a Rocky and Bullwinkle episode. Some of the slow-mo twirling looked pretty bad. Also has perhaps one of the most unintentionally funniest parts when Thewlis disappears inside the tower and then reappears outside like "Hey gurl, now I'm out here, lemme continue to holler at chu." On that note, while I'm glad they didn't go with a fully cgi Big Bad, the halfsies helmeted Thewlis was also a little...silly. Gadot is more striking at a glance than she is a good actor, but she acquits herself well enough.

Wryan
06-03-2017, 04:20 PM
Also I thought the resolution with the smiling young German boys completely undercut the very moment of character building not 20 minutes earlier when she realized that cutting the head off the snake doesn't immediately solve everything and that some people just have different perspectives (or genuine darkness in their hearts) that can't be magically changed or healed.

Mal
06-03-2017, 08:08 PM
What?

It is incredibly refreshing to watch a superhero movie that is a dramatic, uncompromising fluff-free vision and not some kind of audience-serving jerk off/pop culture reference fest that doesn't earn its moments. Diana is an awesome, fantastic character. And seeing a female warrior experience and discover what her power, potential is - and for her NOT to reject it and apologize - is breathtaking. Sure, the cgi wasn't perfect a couple times, and WWI villains aren't groundbreaking (don't need them to be anyway). The heart is there from start to finish however and I can't imagine any better way to tell this story.

Skitch
06-03-2017, 08:48 PM
Okay, cool. I wasn't sure if "so great I'm dead" or "so terrible I'm dead".

Spinal
06-04-2017, 03:10 AM
Probably the best thing about it is its earnestness. Pretty much anytime the movie has Diana coming to terms with the reality of man's behavior and slowly dismantling her own preconceptions about them, the movie is in fine form. Those personal moments might be better than the action, really.

This was what moved me so much. It was beautiful to watch a superhero talk about love and have it feel so convincing. I thought the movie was awfully funny in places too.

Izzy Black
06-04-2017, 01:32 PM
I thought the action scenes kicked ass. I could tell what was going on and I thought the bullet time effects were awesome superhero iconography. It might've helped that I didn't see it in 3D but in 2D 4K with wide color gamut which was incredible. Colors were jumping off the screen, which is a welcome change for a DC movie.

Izzy Black
06-04-2017, 01:33 PM
And for the record, I hate CGI use in 99% of action movies, but didn't bother me here.

Peng
06-04-2017, 04:04 PM
Judging from the wide range of reactions from those I follow, I think you're either going to fall for the earnestness or think that aspect is clumsily executed as hell. Parts of it are clumsy, sure, but I mostly find it so infectious that I succumb to the film just right after the girl turns into Gal Gadot (before that it's so exposition-heavy that for a second I get a worrisome flashback to Thor 2's first half). She and Chris Pine are what makes that earnestness lands so well.

Speaking of, I am sure this is mostly on the source material, but the similarity to Captain America, especially the first one in structure, makes for a rather interesting compare-and-contrast. Gadot exudes purity and energy in the same way that Chris Evans does, maybe even more gratifying because she haven't had a role before that suggests this kind of charisma, so it truly feels like a star-making turn. She's allowed more time to develop her rapport here with Pine, earning the story a rare truly romantic sweep in a superhero film, with an endgame that's also more satisfying just by gender and role reversals.

Mostly delivers on the action front too (opening beach battle is aces, and the No Man's Land sequence is an instant classic of raw heroic awe), at least until some Snyderism unfortunately creeps into the finale, with explosions and loud crashes in the darkness. Still, a much more solid thematic foundation and a great casting choice helps not to turn this into MoS or BvS despite the aesthetic bleed-in. Emotional stakes have already been established and they mostly land right. A shame that we have this present-day framing device, though, so we couldn't leave the film on a better note; it only confirms how I will look forward to Wonder Woman's adventures throughout the years more than present-day rushed assembling of Justice League. 7.5/10

Henry Gale
06-04-2017, 04:59 PM
I thought the action scenes kicked ass. I could tell what was going on and I thought the bullet time effects were awesome superhero iconography. It might've helped that I didn't see it in 3D but in 2D 4K with wide color gamut which was incredible. Colors were jumping off the screen, which is a welcome change for a DC movie.

I actually got to see both this and Batman v Superman in non-IMAX 70mm, and even BvS had a more vibrant look to it with that screening that I've seen with it anywhere else. But needless to say this just looked awesome for the reasons you said with the celluloid blow-up (BvS did have a bunch of IMAX 65-shot stuff) as it already had a more wide-ranging palette, with the film projection further cementing the movie feeling like it was from another era with a projection that had lovely imprecisions to it over the sumptous colours and detail.

I'm not sure what other cities are going to have it, and it's probably not the most glowing example of 70mm since the film's digital intermediate was apparently only mastered in 2K (vs BvS's 4K), but I still definitely recommend it.

Mal
06-04-2017, 05:42 PM
Absolutely do not see this in 3D. I saw it Friday in large format 2D and Saturday in 3D (out of timing compromise for family)- the 3D added nothing.

Henry Gale
06-05-2017, 12:04 AM
Yeah, I've only seen all the DCEU in 2D in theatres but having watched scenes back later in 3D at home I've come to the conclusion that either they are generally not very good conversions OR the Snyder and Ayer just didn't give any of it a single thought. Or both.

The only shot I could've imagined having 3D in mind was when Ares yelled "LIIIIIES" and summoned those dirt daggers that shot towards the camera while he was comfortably centered.

Sycophant
06-05-2017, 01:14 AM
I liked this better than any superhero movie I've seen since Superman Returns. The overwhelming sincerity of both the film's narrative and themes, as well as Gal Gadot's incredibly charismatic performance (and perhaps more specifically how Jenkins uses that performance) really worked for me. There's a lot of tired or kind of hackneyed stuff in the script/plotting that ends up working really well because of how much the film commits to it. Jenkins knows she's dealing with an icon and invests in her film all the power that suggests.

Ultimately, biggest complaint is the extremely tired slomo in the action sequences. And Danny Huston just never feels quite like he belongs in the movie (a lot of the scenes of villainy feel a bit perfunctory, as if the film just isn't all that interested in them, actually).

Watashi
06-05-2017, 08:37 AM
Remember when Danny Huston was an early Match Cut/FDT fad?

Glad he's making a comeback.

Watashi
06-05-2017, 08:38 AM
Also this movie rules.

The No Man's Land sequence kicks any MCU movie's ass.

Winston*
06-05-2017, 10:21 AM
Remember when Danny Huston was an early Match Cut/FDT fad?

Glad he's making a comeback.

I miss Kurosawa Fan.

Dukefrukem
06-05-2017, 12:07 PM
I miss Kurosawa Fan.

Where did he go?

Spinal
06-05-2017, 03:55 PM
Also this movie rules.

The No Man's Land sequence kicks any MCU movie's ass.

Watching it, I felt certain that I was seeing something destined to become an iconic movie moment.

Sycophant
06-05-2017, 08:53 PM
Where did he go?

Away from Match Cut.

I was thinking of KF when I was in the theater being kind of annoyed with Huston.

transmogrifier
06-06-2017, 08:25 AM
Nah, this is just the same old boring generic superhero nonsense that only just squeaks by on Gadot's and Pine's central relationship, which is strong and affecting.

transmogrifier
06-07-2017, 02:33 AM
Also, in a weird way, the sheer clunky, unambitious competency of it all highlights even more the absurdity of the lack of female directors in mainstream studio films; Jenkins just proved that women are just as capable as men at serving up big bland platitudes punctured by the odd rousing moment.

Dukefrukem
06-07-2017, 12:16 PM
We are so giving Jenkins a pass on this.

Peng
06-07-2017, 12:54 PM
We are so not.

Dukefrukem
06-07-2017, 01:00 PM
There's a good movie somewhere in there, but overall it's a mixed bag, looks terrible and once again, is an unfun DC film.

Ivan Drago
06-07-2017, 02:46 PM
Away from Match Cut.

I was thinking of KF when I was in the theater being kind of annoyed with Huston.

I can't not think of this place when I see Danny Huston in anything.

Sycophant
06-07-2017, 08:24 PM
We are so giving Jenkins a pass on this.

It sounds like YOU sure aren't giving Jenkins a pass!

It DOES sound a bit like you're accusing some other people's reactions of being insincere, though!

Rad!

Spinal
06-07-2017, 09:36 PM
I don't really like superhero movies much.

I like this movie for a few reasons:

1) The creation of female-centered iconography around the stock superhero character. Diana is thankfully not a Supergirl or a Batgirl. She has her own unique backstory and is not a second-hand copy. It impossible to view this film in a vacuum. This film clashes wonderfully with contemporary backwards political thinking regarding women's place in American society. (and probably elsewhere ... I'll speak for the country I inhabit)
2) Diana's role as an innocent and an alien. When she enters into a war-soaked world, her reaction is basically to look around and wonder what the hell we're all doing. I like that the film encourages us to view these images of war through fresh eyes.
3) The film remembers that superhero stories are best when the themes of good and evil are writ large. I get bored of tracking minutiae through superhero movies regarding shadowy government organizations and obscure bits of trivia. This film is very earnest when speaking of love, when denouncing war, when celebrating sacrifice. It embraces its mythic origins and harnesses that power.
4) Diana, as embodied by Gal Gadot, is HUGELY charismatic. She is beautiful, strong, thoughtful. Sexy, but not a sexual object. And despite her enormous power, the film humanizes her with humor and with allowing her to be distracted by attraction.
5) It showed me something I have never seen before on film. As I was watching the early battle between German soldiers and bow-wielding warrior women, I realized to myself that this was entirely new imagery for me to process and consider. To point to other films and ignore the fact that particular battle involved an army of all women vs an army of all men would be to miss the point, I think.

Bonus reason: It allows me to stop feeling like I have to half-heartedly defend the Ghostbusters remake.

Skitch
06-07-2017, 10:09 PM
There were so many ways this could have been completely screwed up, and it wasn't at all. I'm not throwing around 10s here or anything, but damn was this enjoyable and satisfying. This is as good an origin film for Wonder Woman as I could've ever hoped to have. I fought back tears of inspiration during the No Mans Land sequence. My wife cried several times. The 12 year old (who is subjected to every comic book movie because of me), could not stop smiling afterward. She loved it, and said its probably her favorite comic book movie ever. I don't blame her a bit.

Dukefrukem
06-08-2017, 01:45 AM
It sounds like YOU sure aren't giving Jenkins a pass!

It DOES sound a bit like you're accusing some other people's reactions of being insincere, though!

Rad!

When I see MC time over time banish movies over exposition and then completely ignore the same exposition in movies like this, it's just so hard to take some of you seriously.

Dukefrukem
06-08-2017, 01:47 AM
We should at least all agree this is a gross looking movie right? I suppose it has to be because of Nolan and Synder, but jeeze. Add some color. Turn up the saturation.

transmogrifier
06-08-2017, 02:40 AM
I hate two indestructible foes going at it in general as a way to end a film, but I hate it even more when the protagonist wins because something happens that makes them particularly angry or sad (especially when they are on the verge of defeat) and suddenly out of convenience they become slightly MORE indestructible and win. It is literally the least creative way you could possibly think to end a movie. Add in silly stuff like conveniently finding a car when you need it, or obvious misdirection regarding who is pulling the strings and oh-my-God-who-writes-this-stuff lines like "It is love that saves the world" or whatever that was at the end and you have yet another slapdash tentpole. I don't get the praise at all. And the lead character is as boring as Superman.

Something like Logan worked because it had a beautifully conceived backstory rooted in the character itself, with all the story beats filtered through how he reconciles his past with who he is as a person and who he wants to be, and he has genuine personal relationship to forge and/or protect (or not, if he wants to). There is nothing like that in Wonder Woman, because she is just dropped in the human world to react and represent big, broad values. She never, ever seems genuine. Her intentions are never in doubt - the thing at the end with the holding of the tank above her head is totally suspense free because the movie does not for a second ever even attempt to suggest she would ever do what is threatened. It is manufactured drama in a banal story.

Dukefrukem
06-08-2017, 12:49 PM
I love you trans. I said the same thing: https://letterboxd.com/dukefrukem/film/wonder-woman-2017/

Finding the car in the middle of the woods, I threw my hands up and looked around my theater. Wut??

Wryan
06-08-2017, 01:03 PM
She never, ever seems genuine. Her intentions are never in doubt.

If the second is true, doesn't that mean she is genuine? :)

Also, I thought it was obvious that the guy found the car where they had been parking everyone else's cars for the gala. In the field.

Dukefrukem
06-08-2017, 01:07 PM
If the second is true, doesn't that mean she is genuine? :)

Also, I thought it was obvious that the guy found the car where they had been parking everyone else's cars for the gala. In the field.

So all the cars were parked outside the gate and before invitations where checked? Oh and a WWI German party would allow people to stroll in without invitations?

Also Katharine Trendacosta (http://io9.gizmodo.com/im-pretty-sure-steve-trevor-lied-about-his-dick-size-in-1795902199) makes a great point.

Wryan
06-08-2017, 01:32 PM
I suspect their drivers act as valet and move the cars after the VIPs get checked in. They gotta keep all those cars somewhere. People should be angrier at the shoddy security in the parking field. Lettin' a native just stroll in like that. Unconscionable.

Pop Trash
06-08-2017, 02:54 PM
I liked about 75% of this. All the

Ares stuff annoyed me. I realize these movies feel they need a big boss man to fight at the end, but it would have been much stronger if Ares never showed up or was previously dead or was just a mythos in the first place. I guess within this universe Greek Gods exist, but it would be nice to point out the folly of mankind has nothing to do with gods or God or religion in general and is just men in power being shitheads over dumb stuff (which is exactly what World War I was about).

Izzy Black
06-08-2017, 04:29 PM
Something like Logan worked because it had a beautifully conceived backstory rooted in the character itself, with all the story beats filtered through how he reconciles his past with who he is as a person and who he wants to be, and he has genuine personal relationship to forge and/or protect (or not, if he wants to). There is nothing like that in Wonder Woman, because she is just dropped in the human world to react and represent big, broad values. She never, ever seems genuine. Her intentions are never in doubt - the thing at the end with the holding of the tank above her head is totally suspense free because the movie does not for a second ever even attempt to suggest she would ever do what is threatened. It is manufactured drama in a banal story.

I thought it was a pretty surprising moment in the film, a moment that to me has not been discussed enough, that she initially decided not to help Steve stop the Germans at the end. It's not to say that she wavers on her most basic duties, but she did waver at the very least on her (apparently conditional) commitment to save human beings. Of course, you might think, given the norms of the genre, she's obviously going to come through in the end, she's a superhero after all, but that wavering is pretty significant thematically nonetheless, and says a lot about her character, arc, and what kind of hero she is.

Skitch
06-08-2017, 07:49 PM
Also, I thought it was obvious that the guy found the car where they had been parking everyone else's cars for the gala. In the field.

It was.

Sycophant
06-08-2017, 07:56 PM
Bonus reason: It allows me to stop feeling like I have to half-heartedly defend the Ghostbusters remake.

We can still defend it against the dumb sexist backlash/forelash, even if the movie itself doesn't really deserve a vigorous defense on its artistic or entertainment merits.

And it's still not like it's the worst movie in the over-esteemed, ahem, franchise.

Sycophant
06-08-2017, 08:02 PM
When I see MC time over time banish movies over exposition and then completely ignore the same exposition in movies like this, it's just so hard to take some of you seriously.

Ignoring the bit where you attack the supposed MC hivemind, 1) I personally am never particularly bothered with exposition in principle, unless it's really clunky, and 2) I'm not sure what we're talking about w/r/t exposition in this movie.

Another thing I like about this movie (btw, I could probably just quote Spinal for a list of the things I most like) in contrast to a lot of other recent tentpole blockbusters is that despite its pretty driven plot momentum, the film has a better sense of hanging out and letting the characters breathe. The scene between Diana and Steve on the boat is really nice. Those two get the most attention, but that's fine since they're the two protagonists. Their relationship is developed better than a lot of actual romances.

Sycophant
06-08-2017, 08:04 PM
Also Katharine Trendacosta (http://io9.gizmodo.com/im-pretty-sure-steve-trevor-lied-about-his-dick-size-in-1795902199) makes a great point.

Steve is our representative of humanity. He's a very good representative. But he is, after all, still a man.

Sycophant
06-08-2017, 08:14 PM
I hate two indestructible foes going at it in general as a way to end a film, but I hate it even more when the protagonist wins because something happens that makes them particularly angry or sad (especially when they are on the verge of defeat) and suddenly out of convenience they become slightly MORE indestructible and win. It is literally the least creative way you could possibly think to end a movie. Add in silly stuff like conveniently finding a car when you need it, or obvious misdirection regarding who is pulling the strings and oh-my-God-who-writes-this-stuff lines like "It is love that saves the world" or whatever that was at the end and you have yet another slapdash tentpole. I don't get the praise at all. And the lead character is as boring as Superman.

Reading responses like this is interesting. I tend not to like superhero movies, and yet I really liked this one.

[Clarifying note: obviously I disagree with your take, but I dig where you're coming from, and am curious to work out where the differences in our reads come from]

Everything you outline is, probably, on paper the most annoying genre conventions in superhero movies. But I liked it here. I liked that a powerful emotion of love gave Diana a surge of power and the upper hand in a stalemate fight between two gods.

I think it's the lack of pretense and irony that sells it for me. I'd never buy Tony Stark monologuing about love, but Wonder Woman just means it so well. It's hard, in my post-Gen X cultural milieu, not to be a little cheeky or snarky about such a simple, earnest, even hackneyed statement. "Love saves the world" is a pretty straightforward, unnuanced message, but the film owns it. In another movie, it would be perfunctory, but Wonder Woman makes it the point. It bakes it into the very thematic and narrative structure of this movie, and I love it.

I like genre conventions when they're executed well. I genuinely think most contemporary superhero movies (literally everything in the MCU I've seen) executes them poorly/shoddily/boringly.

Need to see Logan, though.

Skitch
06-08-2017, 08:25 PM
Need to see Logan, though.

I'd bet good money you're going to like it. Its very against convention, imo. An emotional horror film.

I can't argue against trans' points. But I agree it worked for me more in this film than others.

I still can almost get misty at that very early scene of young Diana just running down the street. I was so struck. Its HER movie. We've seen boys do this dozens of times to the point its old hat. But the camera was on HER. This film is HERS. Can't wait to rewatch this without a bunch of obnoxious strangers.

Dukefrukem
06-08-2017, 08:27 PM
I forgot to mention, that I thought the trench scene was by far the best part of the movie- and I'm being 100% sincere when I say this, but I teared up when Diana spun around revealing her 'crown' "That's why I'm here" . It felt really powerful to me. And then she climbed out of the trenches. I typically HATE slow-mo but I thought it worked really well here.

Apparently I'm not alone. (http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/herocomplex/la-et-hc-wonder-woman-crying-20170605-htmlstory.html)

Skitch
06-08-2017, 08:40 PM
I started tearing up there too, and I thought I was just being a dork until I looked over and my wife had tears streaming. Shes not a comic book nerd either. Then it was crazy hard to fight back the waterworks. The damn score kept swelling at that scene too, every time I thought it was going to breathe it lifted again and wow.

When she flipped that tank a couple minutes later it took all of my energy to restrain myself from screaming out "AND FUCK YOU TOO!!". I'm not exaggerating.

transmogrifier
06-08-2017, 08:53 PM
Even the fish-out-of-water stuff was done better in Thor.

I don't know; is Wonder Woman some sort of American cultural touchstone that I missed out on in little old New Zealand? Because I honestly cannot for the life of me see why this gets a pass.... but then again, that goes for a lot of other superhero films as well, such as Dr. Strange and Civil War.

Skitch
06-08-2017, 09:04 PM
I don't know; is Wonder Woman some sort of American cultural touchstone that I missed out on in little old New Zealand?

It is, because (8 correct me if I'm wrong) it was the first female comic book superhero. Originated in 1941. Considering the political landscape at the time, it was revolutionary for a female to have her own book. And its taken way too fucking long for her to have her own film. We often think we've progressed so far since then, but it took until 2017 to get her own movie. How many wiener heroes movies have we had?

transmogrifier
06-08-2017, 09:05 PM
Understandable - but doesn't make the actual movie itself any better

Skitch
06-08-2017, 09:10 PM
Again, I can't argue that point, sir.

Sycophant
06-08-2017, 09:11 PM
On the other hand I'd argue that it does impact the movie, probably for the better. When a character's an icon, it's going to change how we read the character. Everything culturally meaningful in that character gets written onto her in the context of the film. I think Wonder Woman takes Wonder Woman seriously as an icon, which is something precious few superhero movies have done. There's a strong intertextual power invested in her image, and Jenkins and her DP (Matthew Jensen)'s camera grapples with, I think. It's something I liked about Superman Returns, too.

On the other hand, Jill Lapore argues that (http://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/wonder-womans-unwinnable-war)the film doesn't pay enough tribute to WW's legacy and position. I come at this from the position of a layperson. I don't really know comic heroes outside their really mainstream representations.

transmogrifier
06-08-2017, 09:12 PM
Oh, and the way the final conversation between Steve and Diana is handled is ridiculous. Apparently Diana was briefly deaf and then suddenly remembered what she heard when she was deaf (!) or Jenkins deafened the audience only for plot convenience.... that's symptomatic of the reason I don't like the film - it's shoddily put together.

I very much liked the relationship between Steve and Diana - it's the only thing that really works.

Skitch
06-08-2017, 09:15 PM
On the other hand, Jill Lapore argues that (http://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/wonder-womans-unwinnable-war)the film doesn't pay enough tribute to WW's legacy and position. I come at this from the position of a layperson. I don't really know comic heroes outside their really mainstream representations.

Oh wow. I was surprised how much of the original back story they adhered to but I'm no WW expert. I thought they did a great job combining her different origin stories. Hell, the only thing I thought they didn't touch on was the invisible jet and thats dumb anyway. 8 is the comic guru around here, not me, I am but a padawan. Love to hear his thoughts on all this.

Skitch
06-08-2017, 09:17 PM
Oh, and the way the final conversation between Steve and Diana is handled is ridiculous. Apparently Diana was briefly deaf and then suddenly remembered what she heard when she was deaf (!) or Jenkins deafened the audience only for plot convenience....


#1 reason why I'm not giving this a better score. That was the thing I most disliked about the entire film.

Wryan
06-08-2017, 09:43 PM
I may be misremembering details, but I thought they cut away toward the end of the deafness, and when they went back to it later, it was like a "finishing the rest of the scene" kind of thing. That's how I took it at least. But I don't recall the moment with perfect fidelity.

Dukefrukem
06-08-2017, 10:27 PM
I may be misremembering details, but I thought they cut away toward the end of the deafness, and when they went back to it later, it was like a "finishing the rest of the scene" kind of thing. That's how I took it at least. But I don't recall the moment with perfect fidelity.

So it was representing the audience being deaf? Not sure what you mean here.

transmogrifier
06-08-2017, 10:30 PM
Pretty sure we see Steve hand over the watch and run away both times...

number8
06-09-2017, 01:24 PM
- The thing I was disapppointed in the most was how similar it is to Captain America The First Avenger. I thought it was going to feel that way just because it's a period war movie, but it is beat by beat. The villains are the same. The sidekicks are faux Howling Commandos. It even ends with the same doomsday plane sacrifice.

- I will gladly admit that I'm "giving the movie a pass," but not for the reason some people probably cynically think. I'm soft on it because I think this is one of the best realizations of a superhero's essence I've seen a movie translate. Certainly the best one from DC. I've never seen a DC movie, even the ones I think are good, make me feel "That's it! That's them!" before in their handling of the character. When I think of who Wonder Woman is, I think of honesty and love for humanity despite them disappointing her. Someone who sees her mission in a much more macro view than Superman or Batman. This movie really gets that, which makes it feel new compared to other superhero stories we've gotten that are always more personal stories. Diana has personal tragedies here, but they don't seem to drive her as much as her ambassadorship. That's beautiful.

- I completely agree that the No Man's Land trench sequence is one for the ages. That's a "You've got me? But who's got you?" level of instant classic. My favorite is definitely the boat conversation, though. I don't think much of Gadot as an actor but the way she combines naïveté and teasing in that scene is terrific. I was surprised that my audience didn't laugh more at the "men are entirely unnecessary for female pleasure" line.

- In the end I have to agree with the Jill Lapore article (and I really, really, really recommend her book, it is a phenomenal history of feminism in America told through Wonder Woman's publishing history) that the movie kind of glosses over her symbolic importance in order to portray this post-feminist hero. Etta Candy briefly mentions her fighting for suffrage during the outfits sequence and Diana, maybe because of her ignorance, didn't respond to it at all. I understood and I'm not gonna fault the movie for it, but I still sank a bit.

- And I just gotta say it: it's great that we're recognizing Jenkins' historic accomplishment and all, but I wonder if the above point has to do with the fact that this movie was written by three dudes.

- I am certainly capable of picking it apart some more, but my second point really overwhelms any desire for me to do so. I'm very happy this movie exists. I'm very happy they did not bungle her characterization the way I believe they did with Bats and Supes. It's enough. For now.

Dukefrukem
06-09-2017, 01:40 PM
- I don't think much of Gadot as an actor but the way she combines naïveté and teasing in that scene is terrific. I was surprised that my audience didn't laugh more at the "men are entirely unnecessary for female pleasure" line.

You bring up a good point here. In Batman v Superman my reaction to her was (yessh, we are getting a whole movie of Gal Gadot?) but she does well with the fish out of water play here. What I am weary of is her performance in Justice League.

number8
06-09-2017, 01:59 PM
People don't credit directors for actors' performances enough.

Peng
06-10-2017, 02:59 AM
- I completely agree that the No Man's Land trench sequence is one for the ages. That's a "You've got me? But who's got you?" level of instant classic. My favorite is definitely the boat conversation, though. I don't think much of Gadot as an actor but the way she combines naïveté and teasing in that scene is terrific. I was surprised that my audience didn't laugh more at the "men are entirely unnecessary for female pleasure" line.


You're on the money for Gadot: (http://ew.com/movies/2017/05/18/gal-gadot-wonder-woman-feminist/)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DB4s0KXXYAA3hiI.jpg:large

number8
06-10-2017, 04:52 AM
That makes me so happy.

Skitch
06-10-2017, 10:28 AM
Oh wow thats great.

Spinal
06-10-2017, 05:23 PM
Not sure that I know much about Gal Gadot as an actor, but she's certainly a movie star, which is what really matters in this situation. She "gives good face" to paraphrase Madonna. When we consider her performance, we probably shouldn't be comparing her to Meryl Streep or Helen Mirren. However, if we think about action stars, I'd say her acting is better than Schwarzenegger, Stallone, Travolta and Vin Diesel. It's probably not as good as Jason Statham, Bruce Willis, Charlize Theron or even The Rock.

Dead & Messed Up
06-10-2017, 07:54 PM
Uneven flick, especially with its clipped Nolan-esque Thermyscira opening act and its perfunctory villains and its thundersome, crammed climax (Diana gets her Jesus in the Desert temptation with ten minutes to go in the film? Are you serious?). But when the flick is good, it's not just good - it's rousing and heartfelt and alive with the best possible notion of how a superhero can function: as a way for us to re-evaluate the world we live in and how we can respond to it in the best way. My favorite scene had to be the one where she lost her temper at the generals and demanded to know why they weren't out there in the field with their soldiers. It was such a simple, clear declaration of morality that finding it in a DCEU film felt shocking and therapeutic.

You get glimmers of that in the Captain America films, especially the first one, but it's still so rare - seeing Diana stare at the casualties of war feels borderline revelatory.

I wish we'd gotten a better sense of the relationship between the two villains, and I think they could've made the time by purging the Wayne Enterprises wraparound (it's enough that we see the picture taken in the middle of the film), and I also wish we'd seen Ares skipping the punch-brawl and instead playing on her despair and anger. There's something inspired about portraying Ares as a proper British gentleman hovering in the air - at the least, it's more interesting than obscuring Thewlis behind war armor, shrieking, and hurling impotent daggers.

Pop Trash
06-11-2017, 03:52 AM
Maaan I so feel I could rewrite this script and turn it into a masterpiece. God(ot)damnit.

Acapelli
06-11-2017, 06:34 AM
- I will gladly admit that I'm "giving the movie a pass," but not for the reason some people probably cynically think. I'm soft on it because I think this is one of the best realizations of a superhero's essence I've seen a movie translate. Certainly the best one from DC. I've never seen a DC movie, even the ones I think are good, make me feel "That's it! That's them!" before in their handling of the character. When I think of who Wonder Woman is, I think of honesty and love for humanity despite them disappointing her. Someone who sees her mission in a much more macro view than Superman or Batman. This movie really gets that, which makes it feel new compared to other superhero stories we've gotten that are always more personal stories. Diana has personal tragedies here, but they don't seem to drive her as much as her ambassadorship. That's beautiful.
agree 100%

i wasn't sold at all by gadot being cast as wonder woman when i first read about it, but i'll be damned if she (and the writers/director) didn't nail the characterization. also what is this thing about gal gadot being an unknown? she was in two of the higher grossing fast and furious movies

Acapelli
06-11-2017, 06:35 AM
Also I thought the resolution with the smiling young German boys completely undercut the very moment of character building not 20 minutes earlier when she realized that cutting the head off the snake doesn't immediately solve everything and that some people just have different perspectives (or genuine darkness in their hearts) that can't be magically changed or healed.
also, this was really fucking weird

the nazis are good now?

TGM
06-11-2017, 06:47 AM
WWI wasn't nazis.

number8
06-11-2017, 03:40 PM
Yes but the loss of WWI was the foundation that Hitler's political career was built on. It was kinda funny that the movie portrayed it as a "yay we've learned our lesson now!" knowing that in real life those guys would be bitter and form the Nazi party just a few years later.

Wryan
06-11-2017, 03:49 PM
If we don't get a Wonder Woman/Iron Sky crossover then what is the fucking point of life.

Milky Joe
06-11-2017, 04:36 PM
Baffled by the hype for this... it's just another average superhero movie, barely competent at best. I have to assume it's a political thing, or just the novelty of it being about WOMEN, even though it's kinda actually not.

"Wonder Woman... more like Wonder STEVE." - my gf

They really should have given him a better name to at least sort of differentiate him from Captain America. I think favorite part was David Thewlis and that's mostly because of how his role here dovetails with Fargo.

Skitch
06-11-2017, 05:25 PM
Baffled by the hype for this... it's just another average superhero movie, barely competent at best. I have to assume it's a political thing, or just the novelty of it being about WOMEN, even though it's kinda actually not.

"Wonder Woman... more like Wonder STEVE." - my gf


You felt like Steve was more of the hero/star than Diana?

TGM
06-11-2017, 05:53 PM
You felt like Steve was more of the hero/star than Diana?

Honestly, not gonna lie, but there were points during the film where I thought the exact same thing. :\

Skitch
06-11-2017, 07:08 PM
Wow. I felt like he was constantly in the way. I felt like he was doing his best and was constantly out shined by her. As he should have.

Milky Joe
06-11-2017, 07:36 PM
You felt like Steve was more of the hero/star than Diana?

An awful lot of the movie was centered around Diana's (and others') reacting to Steve rather than the other way around. It doesn't help that Chris Pine is so recognizable at this point as to not blend into the movie at all, so his character is just "Chris Pine, movie star," basically indistinguishable from any of his other movies. He also was the one who ultimately saved the day (as he says), and his death was what provided Diana with the necessary resolve to defeat Ares.

DavidSeven
06-12-2017, 10:31 PM
Unfortunate CGI climax (and main villain) aside, I thought this was awesome.

Finally, a film that really commits to (and succeeds at) iconic image-making while telling a cohesive story that isn't bogged down by an overwhelming plot or franchise tie-ins. Jenkins accomplishes here what other directors have failed to do with Superman or, frankly, any Marvel character -- she has created a super hero who is both knowable and larger than life. I'm not entirely sold on Gadot's acting chops, but her face is mise-en-scène in itself. Definitely a star-maker. Most importantly, this film made me feel. Despite its origins or intentions, it doesn't seem like a movie that's entirely about cinematic-universe propulsion, as these other hero movies have increasingly found themselves lost in. In particular, the imagery and emotions evoked from the island battle are the result of some beautiful self-contained movie-making. So many other scenes like that as well.

No, I am not being tricked by the film's politics, though I think it's more than admirable in that regard. It's just an exceedingly well-made movie that handles its human elements with effective delight, humor, and sadness, as appropriate. Certainly, there are elements to pick apart -- can we stop with overwhelming CG'ed finales? -- but relative to what else is being churned at both DC and Marvel, this is top shelf.

Izzy Black
06-13-2017, 02:08 PM
The movie is pretty apolitical, despite what anyone on either said wants to say. There's the mere fact of its existence, and what minimal amount you get from the source material, but beyond that, the movie plays it safe as possible as far as politics is concerned. Which is fine by me. I prefer a good old fashioned Wonder Woman movie anyways.

number8
06-13-2017, 02:40 PM
Sure, but I think when people talk about it being a politically-weighted movie, they're talking about the external pressures of its existence rather than any of its content. Which is what I was sort of getting at in my original post: if it was so boat-rocking already, it probably wouldn't have hurt or help the film to be a little more explicit in what it's only currently hinting at.

There are actually a few things in the movie that I can't decide are attempts to insert subtext without notice or WB's walking back on elements that were previously text, like the fact that Wonder Woman arrives in Europe in this movie directly before women got the right to vote, or the fact that she comes to her own as a hero in an area called No Man's Land.

Spinal
06-13-2017, 09:07 PM
A few days ago, I was driving down the street and saw a little girl walking along the sidewalk with her mom. The kid was decked out in full Wonder Woman attire, complete with sword. I thought, "That's what it's all about right there."

number8
06-13-2017, 11:34 PM
I was surprised that my audience didn't laugh more at the "men are entirely unnecessary for female pleasure" line.

A-ha. I came across this review (http://www.talkfilmsociety.com/articles/no-mans-land-attending-the-all-women-wonder-woman) today by someone who attended the Drafthouse showing that gave me a eureka moment:


I had prepared myself for something ecstatic and wild. During the movie there was cheering and applause, but not the excited vibration of a concert that I had dreamed up. The energy was mostly pleasant and relaxed. Comfortable. When Diana wryly remarks on the uselessness of men for pleasure, it provoked the biggest reaction of the audience, so loud that I missed the following couple of lines. No fear of offending anyone present, no need to reassure a partner later that of course she wasn’t laughing at him.

So I just asked my lady (who I remember only lightly chuckling) and she pretty much agreed without hesitation that she believes she would've laughed a lot harder at that line if she was in a room with only women present.

Morris Schæffer
06-17-2017, 10:36 PM
This didn't really work for me. The Themyscira sequences were a little corny replete with bad accents and silly action scenes. Then, they get to London and here I actually found myself quite amused by the fish out of water stuff, the movie is at its most engaging here. Simply people conversing, Diana trying out dresses, the secretary is pretty funny. I think Pine and Gadot have some good chemistry during these sequences. The team recruitement is fine too, always good to see Ewan Bremner and Said Taghmaoui. For a moment I found myself looking forward to an exciting men-on-a-mission flick. Then the mission starts and it's just typical bullshit of overpowered superheroes saving the day with the ease that I change underwear every other day while the puny humans pretend to make a difference too by firing a few guns. Is it special because it's a woman? Don't be daft. That it takes place during World War I, a truly horrific moment in human history does this movie no favors at all and I would say that the No Man's land sequence makes a mockery of this conflict. Perhaps superheroes and real World Wars are a big fat no-no although Captain America: The First Avenger did it a little better by not literally putting Steve Rogers in the 1914-1918 trenches.

Then David Thewlis becomes evil because, uh, well either because Diana whined about Ares for sooo goddamn long that he had to show up or because they realized they killed Danny Huston way too soon. Hilarious that they show him sniffing that crazy powerful shit except he's as useful as a limp cock.

Then it goes crazy with lightning, CGI splosions and it all becomes even more exhausting than I could have ever predicted.

I have no idea why I love Superman 1978 so much and am unable to feel that same sense of elation and joy here.

Milky Joe
06-17-2017, 10:44 PM
That it takes place during World War I, a truly horrific moment in human history does this movie no favors at all and I would say that the No Man's land sequence makes a mockery of this conflict.

I had this same thought actually. It was perilously close to outright disrespectful. I think there's a reason there haven't been all that many movies or videogames made about WWI. It was not a noble conflict in any way, shape, or form. So Diana going in there and slaughtering a bunch of Germans so that the English soldiers can take over a meaningless trench 100 yards ahead of them is actually kind of fucked up and totally against the whole idea of her 'mission' to stop senseless slaughter.

The whole portrayal of WWI-era Germany as Pure Evil the way WWII movies portray Nazis was lazy and stupid. They redeemed it a little bit by having Ares actually be an Englishman, but not enough.

Morris Schæffer
06-17-2017, 10:48 PM
I hate two indestructible foes going at it in general as a way to end a film, but I hate it even more when the protagonist wins because something happens that makes them particularly angry or sad (especially when they are on the verge of defeat) and suddenly out of convenience they become slightly MORE indestructible and win. It is literally the least creative way you could possibly think to end a movie. Add in silly stuff like conveniently finding a car when you need it, or obvious misdirection regarding who is pulling the strings and oh-my-God-who-writes-this-stuff lines like "It is love that saves the world" or whatever that was at the end and you have yet another slapdash tentpole.

100% with ya there.

Morris Schæffer
06-17-2017, 10:55 PM
I forgot to mention, that I thought the trench scene was by far the best part of the movie- and I'm being 100% sincere when I say this, but I teared up when Diana spun around revealing her 'crown' "That's why I'm here" . It felt really powerful to me. And then she climbed out of the trenches. I typically HATE slow-mo but I thought it worked really well here.

Apparently I'm not alone. (http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/herocomplex/la-et-hc-wonder-woman-crying-20170605-htmlstory.html)

Yes, that one moment as you describe it is somewhat cool. And then she climbed out of the trenches and one of the bloodiest conflicts in human history is reduced to an afterthought as Diana singlehandedly owerpowers the nazis (or paves the way for her allies) by running towards them.

Morris Schæffer
06-17-2017, 11:05 PM
When she flipped that tank a couple minutes later it took all of my energy to restrain myself from screaming out "AND FUCK YOU TOO!!". I'm not exaggerating.

:)

I wish I would have felt that too. We know the nazis were awful and have perpetrated horrific crimes, but not in this movie. Commeupance can be thrilling when there is a sense of opposition, but during the No Man's Land sequence the only feel we get for the difficulty of the mission is when Pine, who in this scene has transformed from Captain Kirk into Captain exposition, informs Diana the men haven't made any progress at all because of the machine guns awaiting them on the other side. It's not climactic, it's not emotionally powerful and, much to my despair, all I could think was: "It wasn't like that. It was never that easy."

Milky Joe
06-17-2017, 11:49 PM
For the love of God, WWI Germans ≠ Nazis.

Skitch
06-18-2017, 12:46 PM
Morris, you're not wrong in being uncomfortable with the WWI backdrop because of how awful it was. But the same logic could be applied to any/all movies that deal with real armed conflict, whether the story is fictional or based in fact. WW is an example of it being fictional. You could also say that Hamburger Hill exploits a terrible true conflict for entertainment profit. Obviously they're important as teaching tools, but money still went into pockets.

Again, you're not wrong. Its the main reason I avoid (and extremely rarely enjoy) any films around our involvement in the Middle East in my lifetime. Its off-putting to me to look to those films in any enjoyable fashion.

Spinal
06-18-2017, 05:24 PM
Wonder Woman - does it really need to be said? - is not intended to be a realistic depiction of WWI. It is not an attempt to create a vision of "how things were". The character of Diana operates as symbol and metaphor. The film asks us to consider how history may have been different if humanity had a stronger dose of traditionally feminine qualities such as empathy and compassion in our culture instead of masculine chest-thumping.

Morris Schæffer
06-18-2017, 06:28 PM
Morris, you're not wrong in being uncomfortable with the WWI backdrop because of how awful it was. But the same logic could be applied to any/all movies that deal with real armed conflict, whether the story is fictional or based in fact. WW is an example of it being fictional. You could also say that Hamburger Hill exploits a terrible true conflict for entertainment profit. Obviously they're important as teaching tools, but money still went into pockets.

I'm not uncomfortable with the WWI backdrop because of how awful that conflict was, but rather that Wonder Woman makes it appear decidedly less awful. I didn't find that scene engaging.

@Spinal: That's a shaky argument to make when we see Wonder Woman charging into battle kamikaze-style. She may not fire any traditional weapons, but she sure paves the way for the good guys to murder the non-nazi Germans. She takes down a sniper by destroying an entire church which is not an action I associate with empathy and compassion.

Sycophant
06-18-2017, 08:05 PM
My understanding of Diana's motivations in that sequence is that she was attempting to liberate the occupied town from the German forces. Her understanding of the war is necessarily naive, partial, and local, and that the suffering of non-combatants drives her to fight.

Izzy Black
06-19-2017, 02:46 AM
:)

I wish I would have felt that too. We know the nazis were awful and have perpetrated horrific crimes, but not in this movie. Commeupance can be thrilling when there is a sense of opposition, but during the No Man's Land sequence the only feel we get for the difficulty of the mission is when Pine, who in this scene has transformed from Captain Kirk into Captain exposition, informs Diana the men haven't made any progress at all because of the machine guns awaiting them on the other side. It's not climactic, it's not emotionally powerful and, much to my despair, all I could think was: "It wasn't like that. It was never that easy."

As syncophant noted, she's not familiar with modern warfare and the power of German artillery. Steve's trying to explain to her the concept of no man's land as quickly as possibly because he wants them to move on. His claim wasn't "Problem is those big guns over there. If we just find a way to get rid of those, we'd be good to go. That simple". To the contrary, his point was that saving the non-combatants was hopeless, that it was essentially impossible. She balks. She shows him that he underestimates her abilities. The entire build up to this moment was marked by her comrades underestimating (or being simply unaware of) her abilities. We needn't forget: she's a demigod. It's a ridiculous, revisionist fantasy, of course (no man's land the perfect symbol for inevitability and despair), but it's a superhero movie.

Philip J. Fry
06-25-2017, 10:17 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-QhdzQo66o

Acapelli
06-27-2017, 05:33 AM
btw i am one of those big fucking idiots that thought this took place in wwii

to be fair, they hardly did a good job distinguishing this from a movie set in wwii by making the germans out to be the "baddies" and the brits the "good guys"

also to be fair i was pretty stoned

Wryan
06-27-2017, 04:50 PM
Yeah WWI was a clusterfuck of humanity. It was a nasty, sordid affair for all concerned and teetered near the opening edge of modern warfare, which would see full flowering in the sequel. While mustard gas (essentially) was a plot point in WW, it was sort of muted in its delivery (Trevor coughs a bit getting close, villagers are just sort of generally around, dead). Recall, instead, Owen's depiction:


If in some smothering dreams, you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil’s sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,—
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

If ever there was a war to drive that home, with no great big obvious Bogeymen to unify against, it was the "Great War."

Philip J. Fry
06-27-2017, 07:00 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4OcNN7m4fY

Grouchy
06-28-2017, 03:20 PM
Hey! They made a good one!
Pretty much, yeah. Many times during the film I was genuinely thrilled and involved but then there'd be a sort of lame scene and I thought "well, still, this is a MOVIE, someone actually sat down and wrote a three-act structure". It's incredible how low Snyder and company left the bar for the DCU. I agree with many who said this film felt like it was in the Richard Donner mold more than any superhero outing. I think that's because of character development, frankly. Sure, the Donner Superman films haven't aged well in many aspects with their memory erasing smooching and tragedy reversing flying skills, but they still work for most audiences because the script takes its time to develop character and relationships and I think that's something Jenkins and her team did really well here. Also, Gadot might not be Isabelle Huppert exactly, but she gave a convincing performance here. When she's angry or worried I really bought it; same when she was happy. Also, I'd seen her in the Fast and Furious films, but I'd forgotten she had such a distinctive voice.

I also noticed the color thing mentioned in that last video and loved it. It's like the movie is having an aesthetic conversation with Man of Steel and Batman v Superman and using their monochrome world in London as an antithesis to Temyscira and this new heroine they're introducing. And clearly, the best thing this cinematic universe can do at this point is turn against itself. See if they can fix Batman, for example. I also agree with many statements made throughout the thread, namely that the final confrontation is the worst part (it's suddenly a videogame) and that the film is at its very best during the "fish out of water" scenes. I also wish they'd pushed the gender themes further since they're at the heart of the Wonder Woman character. The film in general has some writing problems. The villains are underdeveloped to a fault. That rare scene where Dr. Poison and the General are laughing like naughty schoolchildren is great but it hints at a fun combo that's nowhere to found in the rest of the film.

Rico
07-10-2017, 09:28 PM
The ending would be a lot better if Ares never showed up and Diana had to come to terms with that she just killed a man. A really bad man, yes, but still just a man.

Pop Trash
07-10-2017, 11:28 PM
The ending would be a lot better if Ares never showed up and Diana had to come to terms with that she just killed a man. A really bad man, yes, but still just a man.

This is exactly what I said. Plus she would have had to come to terms with the fact that war still exists because of the absurdity of man, even if the literal God of War isn't around. Powerful stuff. I think they could have written in a closure story on her Amazon Island where she explains to her Mom and Aunt that she has to fight for peace among the humans, thus for all practical purposes becoming the Goddess of Peace.

Skitch
07-11-2017, 02:58 AM
Nah.

transmogrifier
07-11-2017, 03:26 AM
Yeah. The Ares battle is the worst thing in the movie; a complete snooze.

number8
07-11-2017, 03:31 AM
It's kinda neat that I've seen so many people of wildly varying tastes reach a consensus on this film's best scene and its worst one.

Dead & Messed Up
07-11-2017, 06:12 AM
It's kinda neat that I've seen so many people of wildly varying tastes reach a consensus on this film's best scene and its worst one.

No Man's Land / Ares Fight?

number8
07-11-2017, 11:47 AM
See?

Dukefrukem
07-11-2017, 01:00 PM
No Man's Land / Ares Fight?

Agree with this.

Though a very close second would be No Man's Land / Going to the German Party and finding a car in the middle of the woods- (this scene accomplished absolutely nothing and feels like it was written for a single trailer shot with Diana and her sword sticking out her dress)

[ETM]
07-12-2017, 09:02 AM
The whole actual plot of the movie once we leave the island is completely retarded. The fact that it's still so enjoyable speaks volumes about casting etc.

Wryan
07-12-2017, 12:03 PM
THEN I WILL DESTROY YOU!

Dead & Messed Up
07-12-2017, 02:07 PM
The Ares fight would've been at least 20% better if Thewlis stayed in his three-piece suit the whole time. Much more effective evil costume than his DnD duds.

Wryan
07-12-2017, 03:52 PM
Something I've not seen many people talk about is the visual style of the prologue/gods stuff. I thought that was very beautiful and effective at conveying a powerful, classical interpretation. I kind of wish I hadn't seen that in 3D tho, as it sort of suffered a bit, poking out and looking a tad video-gamey.

Dukefrukem
07-14-2017, 05:07 PM
It's about time.

Skitch
07-14-2017, 08:03 PM
I disagree, but who cares. Welcome back Irish. ;)

number8
07-14-2017, 08:17 PM
- The movie isn't just stridently apolitical. It bends over backwards not to threaten the male side of the audience and it plays to the dumbest stereotypes imaginable. What's the first thing that Diana does when she hits London? She goes gaga over a baby and tries on "200" outfits---in other words, once in the modern world, the character plays to expected feminine stereotypes.

Oooh , this is actually my favorite aspect to read and debate about fourth-wave feminism, the idea of whether third-wave feminism's encouragement of viewing stereotypically feminine traits as automatically bad/diminishing is inherently a misogynistic construct. The usually surface-level "strong female character"-focused convention panels that I've attended always get a little livelier when someone suddenly pipe-bombs the discussion with this. And I saw precisely that baby scene being cited in praises as an example of this rejection of equating femme with weakness (there's actually an in-story explanation for her excitement too, but I get what you're pointing out so I want to focus on this instead).

It's a push-pull that's been a part of the Wonder Woman character for as long as I've been reading her. Or any female superhero property, really, because when they're essentially tasked to perform traditionally male feats (physical strength) due to the nature of the genre, the question becomes whether a woman can only be seen as heroic, inspirational, and badass if they adhere to the template of "hero" that masculinity has established in culture (pop or otherwise). With Wonder Woman, there's an interesting pattern where the post-George Perez stories (where she's finally taken seriously by DC as a huge property) written by male authors like Geoff Johns and Brian Azzarello and Greg Rucka (throw in the all-male producers of the Justice League cartoon too), they've always made sure to establish her as first and foremost a formidable warrior, stoic and sometimes cold, as a way to emphasize that she should be considered as badass as the guys, to distance it from the fucked up way that she was portrayed to be the JLA's secretary or a thirsty marriage-chaser in the pre-women's lib era of WW comics. It's noticeably different when female writers wrote and talked about her. Gail Simone likes to heavily emphasize the idea of Diana as a sensitive and matronly figure, and both her run and Jill Thompson's recent graphic novel pushed for the idea of the significance of female-to-female friendships.

The most striking example of these two viewpoints in recent years has definitely been Captain Marvel, and I am so curious to see which way the movie will lean. When they gave her a huge push a few years back and rehauled her Ms Marvel (https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/4/48/Ms_Marvel_Vol_2_43_page_00_Car ol_Danvers_%28Earth-616%29.png/)look into her Captain Marvel (http://www.thagomizer.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Captain-Marvel.jpg)look, the visual transformation was rightly praised, but something that took a while for people to notice I think was that her personality was retooled, too. I don't know if it was editorially mandated or if it's a case of subsequent writers pigeonholing what butch-looking women are supposed to act like, but Carol Danvers' pendulum really got swung into the "military hardass" side of her characterization.

Long story short, I suppose, is the lingering question of where the fault lies if shrieking at cute babies and fashion shopping are considered frivolous behavior for a Wonder Woman, whereas Thor having drinking contests or Spider-man crushing on a girl are considered relatable traits.


- I didn't know whether to roll my eyes or laugh when people took some kind of "girl power" message from this shit, or talked about how Diana represents "love, compassion, and peace" or whatever. Her only goal for two-thirds of the movie is to kill someone and [I]she impales a dude with a fucking sword. I saw some reactions on social media and I started to wonder if I was the only person who remembered the ending of the movie.
I think the word "peace" is a fraught concept when you're talking about the superhero genre, because I don't think the genre is at its core compatible with the idea of pacifism. So peace in the superhero world tend to be something only achieved by an overpowering of violence*. It didn't stand out to me specifically in that way, but it's point taken and I think a big part of what a lot of people find ludicrous about the Ares resolution.

* I didn't want to bring up Gal Gadot's past and social media comments again, but boy, that is fitting.


- The only reason they would want to do sequels as period pieces is because it allows the possibility to place Diana in a time when gross, overt sexism was still a thing. This serves two purposes: It sets up awkward social situations as dumb humor the audience can grin at and it allows both the writers and the audience from considering systemic sexism that exists right now, in the real world. It can play broad, without any nuance.

I would normally agree with this usual Hollywood handling of sexism, but this film doesn't really support that reading because it surprisingly featured almost no overt sexism at all, which is why there are complaints (cosigned by me) that the movie mostly glosses over suffragettes and Wonder Woman's iconic importance.

It's funny that the Wonder Woman animated movie that we were discussing previously takes place in modern day and it had much more overt misogyny in it with Nathan Fillion's Steve Trevor acting like an extreme chauvinist until Diana supposedly sets him straight. Here the sexism mostly just comes out in microaggressions like assumptions of competency and modesty, which is exactly what's still rampant today.

P.S. I find it really unnecessarily reductive when people try to dismiss certain watershed accomplishments with, it wouldn't be special if it was gender-flipped, when that's kind of the point of contention for women to begin with.

megladon8
07-25-2017, 10:23 PM
This was really great.

Devlin
07-26-2017, 06:21 PM
I liked this quite a bit, but more afterwards than while I was watching it. It seemed pretty routine, but the more I thought about it there were certain elements that really stuck with me and caused my appreciation to grow. Certainly not perfect, but very enjoyable and much better than what DC has been giving us the last few years.

Dukefrukem
08-11-2017, 01:05 AM
I just learned that Kate Beckinsale turned down this role.

Grouchy
08-11-2017, 01:27 AM
That makes me very sad.

Enviado desde mi GT-I9190 mediante Tapatalk

Skitch
08-11-2017, 01:36 AM
I just learned that Kate Beckinsale turned down this role.

That can't possibly be true.

Dukefrukem
08-11-2017, 01:48 AM
That can't possibly be true.

Sorry guys. It was the Joss Whedon script.


https://www.yahoo.com/movies/kate-beckinsale-explains-never-played-wonder-woman-145359568.html

Skitch
08-11-2017, 01:49 AM
My only reason for saying that was she can't possibly be that picky at this stage. lol

megladon8
08-25-2017, 09:50 AM
Glad James Cameron was able to mansplain to Jenkins and team about what really makes a strong female character.

Skitch
08-25-2017, 11:39 AM
Yeah, when is the next "blue cat lady needs a white man to save her" movie coming out?

number8
08-25-2017, 02:00 PM
To be fair, James Cameron is an expert in taking a step backwards.

Devlin
08-25-2017, 03:12 PM
It's unfortunate that Cameron felt the need to find fault with not only what was accomplished here, but with the character of Wonder Woman herself. Plenty of women I know, including my wife, have felt a kind of liberation with this film and the way the character is portrayed. It seems, by Cameron's logic, that in order for a woman to be viewed as progressive and domineering she must be hardened and troubled and is not allowed to have any real sex appeal.

megladon8
08-25-2017, 03:24 PM
James Cameron is not a fan of lipstick feminism.

Dead & Messed Up
08-25-2017, 03:32 PM
Just a fun li'l reminder:


PLAYBOY: So Saldana’s character was specifically designed to appeal to guys’ ids?

CAMERON: And they won’t be able to control themselves. They will have actual lust for a character that consists of pixels of ones and zeros. You’re never going to meet her, and if you did, she’s 10 feet tall and would snap your spine. The point is, 99.9 percent of people aren’t going to meet any of the movie actresses they fall in love with, so it doesn’t matter if it’s Neytiri or Michelle Pfeiffer.

PLAYBOY: We seem to need fantasy icons like Lara Croft and Wonder Woman, despite knowing they mess with our heads.

CAMERON: Most of men’s problems with women probably have to do with realizing women are real and most of them don’t look or act like Vampirella. A big recalibration happens when we’re forced to deal with real women, and there’s a certain geek population that would much rather deal with fantasy women than real women. Let’s face it: Real women are complicated. You can try your whole life and not understand them.

PLAYBOY: How much did you get into calibrating your movie heroine’s hotness?

CAMERON: Right from the beginning I said, “She’s got to have tits,” even though that makes no sense because her race, the Na’vi, aren’t placental mammals. I designed her costumes based on a taparrabo, a loincloth thing worn by Mayan Indians. We go to another planet in this movie, so it would be stupid if she ran around in a Brazilian thong or a fur bikini like Raquel Welch in One Million Years B.C.

PLAYBOY: Are her breasts on view?

CAMERON: I came up with this free—floating, lion’s-mane—like array of feathers, and we strategically lit and angled shots to not draw attention to her breasts, but they’re right there. The animation uses a physics-based sim that takes into consideration gravity, air movement and the momentum of her hair, her top. We had a shot in which Neytiri falls into a specific position, and because she is lit by orange firelight, it lights up the nipples. That was good, except we’re going for a PG-13 rating, so we wound up having to fix it. We’ll have to put it on the special edition DVD; it will be a collector’s item. A Neytiri Playboy Centerfold would have been a good idea.

Guys... she's gotta have dem tits.

Spinal
08-25-2017, 04:33 PM
PLAYBOY: So Saldana’s character was specifically designed to appeal to guys’ ids?

CAMERON: And they won’t be able to control themselves. They will have actual lust for a character that consists of pixels of ones and zeros.

This definitely did not happen.

Peng
08-25-2017, 04:39 PM
I love every non-Piranha film of his, but it will forever stick in my mind that he is the kind of person who nick-names one of his leading ladies as 'Kate Weighs-A-Lot'.

Spinal
08-25-2017, 04:41 PM
Remember that time he lost the Oscar to his ex-wife. That was fun.

Dead & Messed Up
08-25-2017, 04:54 PM
Remember that time he lost the Oscar to his ex-wife. That was fun.

He was super-supportive of that, at least outwardly:


James Cameron:
Yeah. You know, but in our minds, it’s not a competition. That’s a narrative that’s imposed by others, because it’s, you know, it makes a good story. We’re so celebratory of each other’s work, and we’ve remained — you know, I produced two of her films, one of which I produced — wrote and produced — wrote it with Jay Cocks — after we were divorced. So, we’ve worked together, and we’ve been supportive colleagues. She saw “Avatar” five times at different stages of its development, from very crude —

Charlie Rose:
You mean you would go show it to her and say tell me what you think.

James Cameron:
Yeah. She’s come over — and tirelessly come over, watch the film. This is over a period of six or eight months and give me notes and even Mark Boal, who wrote “The Hurt Locker,” came and gave me very good notes, very helpful notes. And they had shared Hurt Locker with me earlier on.

Charlie Rose:
Right.

James Cameron:
And my note was very simple. Don’t change a damn thing. You know, because they showed it to me fairly late in the process because I had been shooting. And I said, don’t change a damn thing. This thing is great. And they were, of course, very nervous —

Charlie Rose:
Why is it so great, do you think?

James Cameron:
I think just because it’s consummately good filmmaking — excuse me, consummately good filmmaking. I mean, you are in those guys’ shoes, and you’re there. I mean, I have been at screenings and watched people literally sit on the edge of their seat, literally. I mean, you hear that expression all the time. Literally sit forward for the entire movie, hand clinched like this. It’s that tight. It’s that taught, you know. And for her to — I mean, she’s outgunned the guys, you know, definitely. And of course, her —

Charlie Rose:
You’re not surprised by that.

James Cameron:
Not at all, not at all because she’s always done that. But it’s the recognition, you know, finally the recognition catching up with the scope of her talent.

Charlie Rose:
So if someone sitting there says, look, I’m going to give it to Cameron, best picture but Bigelow best director —

James Cameron:
That would be a fantasy. That would be my fantasy outcome, absolutely.

Charlie Rose:
That would be what you’d like to see?

James Cameron:
That’s the best possible outcome because it’s — because I know how hard my team worked and how much they would — how proud they would be of that accolade, you know what I mean? And look, for myself, I have already got an Oscar. I’ve got a couple of them, you know. And I respect the whole institution of the Academy Awards because it’s so — it’s the pinnacle of achievement in my chosen profession. But I don’t really need another one. But to be honored — you know, to have the team honored and for their accomplishment, that would mean so much to them. And I think that would be the fantasy outcome in all of this.

Charlie Rose:
So you’re saying to the voters, please take a look at my team and go for us as best picture. But —

James Cameron:
Yeah, and I —

Charlie Rose:
— go for Kathryn Bigelow for best director.

James Cameron:
I mean, all I can say is that that would make me very happy if that — you know, I don’t want to try to get —

Charlie Rose:
Happier than if it was best director for James Cameron?

James Cameron:
Honestly, yes.

Charlie Rose:
I believe you.

James Cameron:
Absolutely.

Charlie Rose:
I believe you.

James Cameron:
Absolutely. I mean, I just think she’s worked so hard for so long. And there’s something very irresistible about the idea of a woman finally being anointed in that role. It’s ridiculously long overdue. And she, of course, would reject that being a woman should have anything to do with it.

There's some condescension in the middle there, but I don't think he was bothered to lose to her... now, it routing his film by picking up a lot of technical Oscars and then taking Best Picture probably miffed him a little.

Anyway, their relationship always reminds me of this goof (at 01:50):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGBqptiTsxM&t=1m50s

Grouchy
08-25-2017, 05:16 PM
I felt actual lust for Jessica Rabbit, the blond from Cool World and the Harley/Ivy duo, but not for Nefertiti... whatever she was called.

number8
08-25-2017, 06:58 PM
This definitely did not happen.

It was a weird answer to begin with. Unless I'm misunderstanding, he basically said, "Geeks don't know what real women are like, they just know fantasy babes, so I'm making a movie for geeks and it'll have this female character that they're gonna go fucking bonkers for and I'm gonna make three billion fucking dollars from these horny fucking dorks who won't be able to stop jacking it to big bouncing blue beastly boobies."

I mean, I guess mission accomplished somewhat, but I don't think it's for the reason he thought it was.

Spinal
08-25-2017, 07:53 PM
Well, I suppose his position as King of the World entitles him to say whatever he wants.

Dead & Messed Up
08-25-2017, 08:05 PM
"Guys, I've been looking at the concept art of Neytiri, and I love the way the stripes are contrasting more softly against the blue skin, and the tail is starting to carry the on-screen weight we need for the audience to read it as real...

...but, guys...

...you know she gotta have dem titties."

Spinal
08-25-2017, 09:01 PM
Mods, please change the name of this thread to "James Cameron Celebrity Roast".

Milky Joe
08-26-2017, 12:25 AM
I thought he was right about Wonder Woman... movie sucked.

Peng
08-26-2017, 03:01 AM
So you, like him, are not saying you didn't like the movie too...?

megladon8
08-30-2017, 10:49 AM
I thought he was right about Wonder Woman... movie sucked.

Are you saying you agree in that you both didn't like the movie?

Or you think he's right about Wonder Woman being a step backwards for female heroes?

TGM
09-19-2017, 08:51 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eef-1HLKgoQ

Skitch
09-19-2017, 10:14 PM
I hate it when they make dumb assertions as though they are facts. None of the movies imply Wonder Woman went into hiding between WWI and BvS and ignored other wars.

Irish
09-27-2017, 05:55 PM
Haha, I bet you thought Cameron was done talking about this movie

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/features/james-cameron-doubles-down-wonder-woman-critique-details-avatar-sequels-1043026

Milky Joe
09-27-2017, 06:10 PM
And he's still right!

number8
09-27-2017, 06:37 PM
My reaction to the Cameron comments has been pretty apathetic, but it does make me smile that we are at a time in Hollywood where a male director is saying a tough woman should not look like a sexualized fantasy for teenage boys and a bunch of women are like, uh, don't tell women that femmes can't be perceived as tough, dude. That feels like a refreshing change from the old arguments about female heroes.

Dead & Messed Up
09-27-2017, 06:47 PM
I'm still of the mind that Jenkins didn't portray her as a sexual object. She portrayed her as beautiful, but there was no emphasis on her ladyparts. The only person in the film that came off as sexualized is Chris Pine in the bath scene, where you're encouraged to take Diana's perspective and scope out his glistening fulsome curves. There's no "male gaze" in the film that lingers on Diana.

If the objection is to the costume in general, then fine, okay, that I get, but Jenkins and her team mitigate the costume's possible exploitative elements with how they present it.

And, again, I refer everyone to Cameron's hopes for a fuckable Neytiri.

Morris Schæffer
09-27-2017, 07:38 PM
Haha, I bet you thought Cameron was done talking about this movie

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/features/james-cameron-doubles-down-wonder-woman-critique-details-avatar-sequels-1043026

I don't put anything past Cameron.

Grouchy
09-27-2017, 07:39 PM
The quote says more about Cameron's ignorance of the comic books than anything else. I mean, he's right that Sarah Connor's portrayal was decidedly more groundbreaking and atypical for a lead hero, but Wonder Woman can't look like Linda Hamilton. She's an Amazon and she's supposed to be drop dead gorgeous.

Grouchy
09-27-2017, 09:36 PM
Also, in a sequel he endorsed they cast goddamn Daenerys as Sarah Connor.

Irish
09-27-2017, 10:04 PM
I think Cameron's point was that putting a beautiful woman front-and-center wasn't, in and of itself, groundbreaking. It's a gimmick based on equal parts novelty and sex. It's the same gimmick they used ~50 years ago ("Barbarella," "1000000 Years BC") and the same gimmick they use today ("Lucy," "Atomic Blonde").

The difference between Sarah Connor (or Ellen Ripley, while we're at it) is that --- at least in their original appearances --- they didn't conform to the usual "strong women" tropes.

number8
09-28-2017, 03:31 AM
Hey, that reminds me of something. After I saw Atomic Blonde, I heard two observations about the way Charlize was portrayed in it that didn't even register with me, and both were made by women, if that matters.

My partner thought the costuming in the movie was fucking genius. She was going on and on about how Charlize's outfits were these high-waisted short skirts that made her legs look extra long. I noticed that too and thought they made her look really good, but apparently my partner was struck by how imposing it made her look throughout the movie. The long legs, plus the heels, made her tower over McAvoy and Boutella and basically everyone else in the movie.

The other is from NPR's Linda Holmes, who when talking about the movie said she thought it was interesting that Charlize has several nude scenes in the movie and the movie makes her look her worst in them. Anytime she's fully clothed, she's very sexy. Her clothes and her hair are perfect, she walks in this seductive way, and the camera makes her look like she's in a fashion shoot. When she's naked or in her underwear/towel, she's bruised, in no make up, she's lurching in pain, and the scene is always lit more ominously. Nothing about any of it is sexy.

...Maybe I should've posted this in the Atomic Blonde thread.

Irish
09-28-2017, 04:59 AM
...Maybe I should've posted this in the Atomic Blonde thread.

LOL, maybe. It doesn't have much to do with the subject --- but in partial response, I argue that "Atomic Blonde" wasn't sold and won't be viewed that way. (Although I think both observations are interesting and I'd bet money those choices were made by Theron herself.)

Peng
09-28-2017, 09:25 AM
Posted this elsewhere when the Cameron/Jenkins news first broke:

Let me just preface that this is anecdotal and also many of my country's men are gross. But: in her very briefer BvS appearance there is somehow still a shot of her during the final fight that people ogles over and still has its gif for use leeringly whenever an article about Gadot comes up. It's telling that the Gadot-almost-all-the-time Wonder Woman never inspire a single moment like that. Sexy costume or no, a director does make a difference.

Henry Gale
09-28-2017, 10:56 AM
In a way this goes completely against your point to ask to see it, but since I'm genuinely unsure: Which gif do you speak of?

Peng
09-28-2017, 01:42 PM
It's been long (this is most frequently in the middle period between BvS and WW) and I'm not gonna go specifically look out for it, but if I remember correctly it's during the BvS final fight where she's knocked down against something and her skirt went up.

Dukefrukem
09-28-2017, 01:51 PM
Is it this?

https://68.media.tumblr.com/ec66496b7a0b9b7d7c89c232b8f53a 63/tumblr_o50xvwTmNZ1s9c6nao2_500 .gif

Grouchy
09-28-2017, 05:48 PM
Is it so gross to like beautiful women? I'll forever be confused by your seemingly unanimous stand against even mild eroticism.

Dead & Messed Up
09-28-2017, 06:35 PM
Is it so gross to like beautiful women? I'll forever be confused by your seemingly unanimous stand against even mild eroticism.

I just don't like when that eroticism comes at the expense of character agency, or when I feel that the eroticism is the real point and there's no sense of balance. Neither of which I think happens at all in Wonder Woman. The One Million BC comparison from earlier feels especially off-base to me, because the issue with that film is Welch's utter lack of utility except as a source of ogling. I'd chastise that silly fur bikini because there's nothing else to consider with that character and actress.

It's funny people criticize that shot in BvS, because I don't think it has anything to do with eroticism. The shot is about her smiling when Doomsday knocks her back and us recognizing her enjoyment of a legitimate fight. The focus isn't on her upturned skirt at all.

Skitch
09-28-2017, 07:21 PM
It's funny people criticize that shot in BvS, because I don't think it has anything to do with eroticism. The shot is about her smiling when Doomsday knocks her back and us recognizing her enjoyment of a legitimate fight. The focus isn't on her upturned skirt at all.

Agreed, I don't see it either. I don't think it was intended to be by the shot/director/dp either.

Dukefrukem
09-28-2017, 07:35 PM
Never saw it until it was mentioned here. Didn't even remember the scene or the smile.

Irish
09-28-2017, 07:41 PM
The One Million BC comparison from earlier feels especially off-base to me, because the issue with that film is Welch's utter lack of utility except as a source of ogling.

That ScarJo's characters have more agency than Raquel's is a function of changing social mores (eg: second wave feminism). But the intent in packaging, marketing, and audience is similar.

I think Cameron's tone was cavalier and he got a little too hand-wavy, but he's not wrong, either.

megladon8
09-29-2017, 02:48 AM
Cameron is being a tool and continues to mansplain feminism to a female feminist director.

Peng
09-29-2017, 03:55 AM
I agree that it is absolutely not intentional on any part of the filmmakers, but I used to get annoyed at the gif cropping up so often and was very striked by how there is no equivalence from WW. So I think, even in the subsconcious and without intention, the images as seen through two filmmakers of different genders can be telling in this regard.

Ezee E
10-21-2017, 06:26 AM
Nah, this is just the same old boring generic superhero nonsense that only just squeaks by on Gadot's and Pine's central relationship, which is strong and affecting.

My thoughts exactly.

Second DC movie since the Superman one.

Ezee E
10-21-2017, 02:21 PM
-Why is it so hard to make a successful/interesting villain in these comic book movies? Heck, even Logan had a pretty lame villain in an otherwise great world. The movie probably could've skipped the "CGI-ness" of the villain altogether and maybe succeeded even more if it just was Wonder Woman understanding what war and sacrifice is.

-Gadot's reaction to killing Huston may be one of the more powerful performance parts in the "shared universe" worlds. Heck, her feelings even extend past a scene, something you also don't see in these comic universes.

-The Amazon world is goofy as hell. And holy cow, the end confrontation is bad.

-Trench war scene is cool. I like that it went from trench warfare to the city, although I don't really understand the little "bump" that the guys gave Wonder Woman to the sniper house. Did she even need it? lol.

-There's so much confusion with WWII because there's so many of the WWII cliches here.

Peng
10-21-2017, 04:00 PM
although I don't really understand the little "bump" that the guys gave Wonder Woman to the sniper house. Did she even need it? lol.


It's the same move (https://youtu.be/bIfPq3biW_o?t=163) that Steve saw earlier in the fight at the island. I like that it's both in keeping with their fight style ("Shield" as signifier) and a very minor character detail that Steve's the kind of guy that pays attention.

Morris Schæffer
10-21-2017, 04:20 PM
-Why is it so hard to make a successful/interesting villain in these comic book movies? Heck, even Logan had a pretty lame villain in an otherwise great world. The movie probably could've skipped the "CGI-ness" of the villain altogether and maybe succeeded even more if it just was Wonder Woman understanding what war and sacrifice is.



Convention? In the end, as 'different' as Logan is, I kinda wish they had dispensed with the supervillain altogether and found instead a way to have him shuffle off the mortial coil at the hands of regular humans.

But these movies, as gutsy as some of them are, will always end up yielding to convention because $$$$$$.

But this is why superheroes can be boring and tricky to really get right all the way to the end game. For The Avengers they've been saying for what feels like years that they're finally going to find their match. Now, Thanos gets a shot at it, but he's dead in the water. Hulk alone could probably take him down.