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Dukefrukem
03-09-2017, 01:52 PM
Anyone else immediately hear the theme song with the mere mention of GoT?

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--AiQKAjit--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_ 800/rtczywfdekmu2gnplx9m.jpg

Dukefrukem
03-09-2017, 03:11 PM
Making this thread was just an excuse to report that the Azure Window, has fallen into the sea.

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--96MrUV7n--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_ 800/etlrb9oqpvrp8u2qxlmi.jpg
https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--L20_a65O--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_ 800/xhdaskvgy8lgy2ccjh5c.jpg
https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--HvjQWyko--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_ 800/xjl6h27qam4n4omslvsc.jpg
https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--khXsaj_P--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_63 6/cbdozkuhzzj44scriiir.jpg

Spinal
03-09-2017, 04:41 PM
That's crazy about the Azure Window! What a bummer.

Anyone else going to the live concert event they're touring? I have tickets for early April.

Spinal
03-09-2017, 07:16 PM
July 16th will be the date of the premiere, according the FB page.

Spinal
04-03-2017, 04:52 PM
Anyone else going to the live concert event they're touring? I have tickets for early April.

This was everything I could have hoped for. The featured musicians were charismatic and highly skilled. The evening was well-staged and the visuals were evocative without overwhelming the music. It was like compressing all the emotional high points of the series into 2 hours, so it was surprisingly moving as well.

Ezee E
04-09-2017, 05:55 AM
This was everything I could have hoped for. The featured musicians were charismatic and highly skilled. The evening was well-staged and the visuals were evocative without overwhelming the music. It was like compressing all the emotional high points of the series into 2 hours, so it was surprisingly moving as well.

Good to hear. I had to miss out on this, but i'm hoping that it's successful and will hit a second round next year.

Spinal
04-20-2017, 07:18 PM
Is this Dragonstone?

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p485/joelharmonpdx/GoT-Sn7_FirstLook_15_zps15sj2ytv.j pg

More production photos (http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/production-diary/get-look-exclusive-photos-game-of-thrones-season-7)

number8
05-04-2017, 07:39 PM
Bleh. (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/04/arts/television/hbo-game-of-thrones-spinoffs.html?_r=0)

Grouchy
05-04-2017, 08:15 PM
A series of TV films with the Tales of Dunk and Egg wouldn't feel like a steal, but I doubt they're aiming for that.

Ezee E
05-04-2017, 08:56 PM
Bleh. (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/04/arts/television/hbo-game-of-thrones-spinoffs.html?_r=0)

That's no surprise. Westworld may last one more season, and that's about it at this point for big audiences in HBO shows as far as I'm aware.

There's four scripts though. Does that mean four ideas, four episodes?

number8
05-04-2017, 09:11 PM
Yes, they got four different writers to develop four different spinoff concepts (different Westeros periods too, probably). They're most likely not gonna greenlight all four to series, though. I think they just don't know what the best spinoff would be so they're developing multiple ones and will pick the best one.

Watashi
05-05-2017, 08:16 AM
Game of Thrones is by far HBO's biggest hit. They are going to stretch out Martin's work as far as it goes.

number8
05-05-2017, 01:52 PM
I feel bad for anyone who still believes that he'll ever finish the books.

Grouchy
05-06-2017, 08:24 PM
Hahah this has to be a first in the history of literary adaptations.

At one point I felt bad for Martin because of the pressure, then I realized he can't finish the books because he's too busy spending millions of dollars to build a swimming pool full of Jello or whatever he's doing.

Dukefrukem
05-24-2017, 07:01 PM
Wow.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giYeaKsXnsI

Morris Schæffer
06-09-2017, 10:44 AM
http://www.tvguide.com/news/game-of-thrones-season-7-longest-episodes/?rss=breakingnews&partnerid=imdb&profileid=01


The previous record holder for longest Game of Thrones episode was Season 6's excellent finale "The Winds of Winter," which ran 68 glorious wildfire-igniting, sept-exploding, Tommen-jumping minutes. According to HBO Now's listings, Episode 6 of Season 7 will best that by three minutes, running a total of 71 minutes. But dwarfing that will be Season 7's finale, which clocks in at a whopping 81 minutes. That's like 33 percent more Game of Thrones than a typical episode!

Gizmo
06-09-2017, 06:19 PM
Wow 33% more in one episode!!??! Too bad we're getting 30% less season.

Spinal
06-09-2017, 06:22 PM
Wow 33% more in one episode!!??! Too bad we're getting 30% less season.

More killer, less filler.

Dukefrukem
06-09-2017, 06:27 PM
That's crazy about the Azure Window! What a bummer.

Anyone else going to the live concert event they're touring? I have tickets for early April.

How was that btw? How were the visuals incorporated. I don't understand this part.

Dukefrukem
07-17-2017, 02:09 AM
Good start.

Grouchy
07-17-2017, 01:53 PM
Best parts were the cold open and the Hound and the Brotherhood. Great start all around.

Arya's second scene was kind of unintentionally funny given how dirty and coarse every other soldier we've ever seen on the show has been.

Dukefrukem
07-17-2017, 01:54 PM
Yeh, the Hound seems like a completely different person now. That whole seen at the house was incredible - especially him reflecting on what he did to those two nice people who took him and Arya in out of kindness.

Had no idea that was Ed Sheeran until this morning.

Dukefrukem
07-17-2017, 01:59 PM
Is this Dragonstone?

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p485/joelharmonpdx/GoT-Sn7_FirstLook_15_zps15sj2ytv.j pg

More production photos (http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/production-diary/get-look-exclusive-photos-game-of-thrones-season-7)

It sure was!

Spinal
07-17-2017, 02:50 PM
Could anyone explain the cold open with Arya Stark? (I haven't watched this show in 3-4 seasons.)

What was with the "Mission Impossible" mask gag? Is that something she can do now? Is a skill she alone has or can other characters do that too?

Yes, all the characters are able to do that now ever since the White Walkers took over Westeros and killed all the characters we once knew. It turns out that they were also shapeshifters and can take on the identity of anybody that they killed. That one killed Walder and Arya and so it can pretend to be both. There were fewer identity shifts than usual this episode. I think the White Walkers must be getting bored with changing faces all the time.

Dukefrukem
07-17-2017, 02:56 PM
lol

Peng
07-17-2017, 03:33 PM
I'm on phone right now and at the moment can't type a long answer, so sorry if this is unhelpful and possibly comes off snarky, but I'm truly curious: you're invested in this season?

Irish
07-17-2017, 04:07 PM
Nevermind -- got the answer from a friend.

Uh, thanks?

Spinal
07-17-2017, 05:12 PM
That song Ed Sheeran was singing was the one from the books, composed to tell the story of Tyrion's secret affair with Shae. But in the context of the show, it kind of sounds like it's about Jamie. Foreshadowing?

Also, I've long thought that Arya would be the one to kill Cersei. But now that she is actually heading that direction, I'm having big doubts. She just seems too confident right now. Everything is too easy for her thus far. To quote Whoopi Goldberg, "You in danger, girl."

Grouchy
07-17-2017, 07:25 PM
So apparently Ed Sheeran is a singer that exists. Is he going to be a regular character or was the cameo the whole point of the scene?

Spinal
07-17-2017, 07:28 PM
I think he was probably just a singer Arya encountered along the road. But who knows?

Ivan Drago
07-17-2017, 07:32 PM
I would think it was a cameo. At least one musical talent has cameoed once a season.

Ezee E
07-18-2017, 01:43 AM
That song Ed Sheeran was singing was the one from the books, composed to tell the story of Tyrion's secret affair with Shae. But in the context of the show, it kind of sounds like it's about Jamie. Foreshadowing?

Also, I've long thought that Arya would be the one to kill Cersei. But now that she is actually heading that direction, I'm having big doubts. She just seems too confident right now. Everything is too easy for her thus far. To quote Whoopi Goldberg, "You in danger, girl."

That's my thought too after the episode.

I almost wonder if Gregor would be immune to the "masks" and would pick up on it immediately.

Or, she runs into Melisandre.

Or both.

The other brother, Sandor, might have the best "arc" out of all the characters at this point. Every scene he's in is terrific.

Spinal
07-18-2017, 01:57 AM
Or, she runs into Melisandre.


This reunion was promised the first time they met. Melisandre saw it in their future.

Ezee E
07-18-2017, 02:00 AM
Other thoughts:

-How unrecognizable will Jorah be when we inevitably see his face? Unsure if he went to Oldtown to do the research himself, but he sure traveled pretty far. Oldtown is on the other end of the country from King's Landing. He won't be see Dany anytime soon.

-People describing the Ed Sheeran scene as a "jumping the shark" type of scene is silly. I don't recognize Ed, and it was a nice contrast for Arya's character.

-Littlefinger, hopefully for the sake of his character, has something planned beyond what Sansa thinks he has planned.

-I mentioned it in the other thread, but TOrmund sure seems like a recognizable guy that's destined for death in the very near future.

-Where are Gregor and Beric at on the map? Are they heading for The Wall?

Spinal
07-18-2017, 02:23 AM
Beric and Thoros and Gregor are in the Riverlands. Not sure if we have a more specific location than that.

Thirdmango
07-18-2017, 06:12 AM
A bunch of people were talking about how bad the cameo was this morning and I was like, "HOW CAN PEOPLE NOT LIKE JIM BROADBENT!!!!" But then I found out it was about ed sheeran.

number8
07-18-2017, 11:31 AM
The kid from This is England was even in the same scene and people wanna talk Ed Sheeran.

Grouchy
07-18-2017, 12:11 PM
-People describing the Ed Sheeran scene as a "jumping the shark" type of scene is silly. I don't recognize Ed, and it was a nice contrast for Arya's character.
Here's the thing - I appreciate what the scene is trying to do, which is show how Arya is not accostumed to deal with basic human decency at this stage. But the kindness of the soldiers was so overplayed in contrast to everyone else we've met in this world that the scene turned into unintentional parody, at least for me.

Dukefrukem
07-18-2017, 01:55 PM
Aweee you guys hurt his feelings

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/40641710/ed-sheeran-deletes-his-twitter-account

Spinal
07-18-2017, 02:34 PM
God, the internet is terrible. Non-issue. He didn't look out of place. His performance was fine. What is wrong with people that they obsess over this?

Dukefrukem
07-18-2017, 02:48 PM
God, the internet is terrible. Non-issue. He didn't look out of place. His performance was fine. What is wrong with people that they obsess over this?

Oh please. He's a celebrity.

886768353943199744

TGM
07-18-2017, 02:57 PM
Just watched the scene, don't get the big fuss over it. :\

TGM
07-18-2017, 02:58 PM
Oh please. He's a celebrity.

886768353943199744

Why does him being a celebrity excuse people being shit?

bac0n
07-18-2017, 03:18 PM
Here's the thing - I appreciate what the scene is trying to do, which is show how Arya is not accostumed to deal with basic human decency at this stage. But the kindness of the soldiers was so overplayed in contrast to everyone else we've met in this world that the scene turned into unintentional parody, at least for me.

Well, they are all Lannister soldiers to boot, so I'm pretty sure this scene is to test how much humanity Arya has left. I will be curious to see what their fate is next episode. I think it's 50/50 that Arya slits all their throats as they sleep.

Spinal
07-18-2017, 04:00 PM
"Oh please. He's a celebrity." -- Mark David Chapman

Spinal
07-18-2017, 04:20 PM
Here's the thing - I appreciate what the scene is trying to do, which is show how Arya is not accostumed to deal with basic human decency at this stage. But the kindness of the soldiers was so overplayed in contrast to everyone else we've met in this world that the scene turned into unintentional parody, at least for me.

Yeah, it's strange that they didn't have at least one token a-hole character to give the rest of them something to contrast off of. It did kind of make it seem like Arya had wandered into a different world or something.

Irish
07-18-2017, 05:14 PM
"Oh please. He's a celebrity." -- Mark David Chapman

Three questions:

1) Did you really intend to draw a comparison between Ed Sheeran and John Lennon?

2) Do you plan to keep this shit up for the next 6 weeks?

3) What gives?

Grouchy
07-18-2017, 05:23 PM
Eh, I think Spinal was just messing with you. It is a little funny that you ask to be updated on a show like Game of Thrones when you've missed 30-40 hours of plot.

Spinal
07-18-2017, 05:26 PM
It was a darkly humorous joke. Here's another one:

"What's cold and dead and wants to hold your hand?"
"John Lennon."

Irish
07-18-2017, 05:32 PM
Uh huh.

Dukefrukem
07-18-2017, 05:40 PM
Why does him being a celebrity excuse people being shit?

They get paid millions to be put in the public spotlight and to be criticized. Don't feel bad for them.

Dukefrukem
07-18-2017, 05:44 PM
Eh, I think Spinal was just messing with you. It is a little funny that you ask to be updated on a show like Game of Thrones when you've missed 30-40 hours of plot.

BTW Irish I forgot to come back to this- what's the logic in skipping several seasons? Not only is it several seasons worth of motivational blood tears and sweat from (basically every character) , it's not like those seasons were especially bad either. There are quite a few episodes that I would love to experience again (for the first time).

Watashi
07-18-2017, 05:48 PM
Welcome back, Irish.

Spinal
07-18-2017, 05:52 PM
Uh huh.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/2-28-2014/25AxJt.gif

Irish
07-18-2017, 06:14 PM
BTW Irish I forgot to come back to this- what's the logic in skipping several seasons? Not only is it several seasons worth of motivational blood tears and sweat from (basically every character) , it's not like those seasons were especially bad either. There are quite a few episodes that I would love to experience again (for the first time).

TL;DR: I watched the premiere because I thought this was the final season. (Turns out, it's not. So I'm ambivalent again, at least until next year.)

DavidSeven
07-18-2017, 10:22 PM
Euron Greyjoy looking like a Euro-hipster version of Eddie Murphy in RAW was more distracting than Ed Sheeran.

Great opener otherwise. Best "previously on" montage ever.

number8
07-18-2017, 10:30 PM
For me, one of the most interesting things about my relationship to GoT is that it's constantly lumped into the high-minded drama canon but I've always enjoyed it more as a fluff, entertaining pop corn soap. It's got more in common with Lost or Agents of SHIELD or Stranger Things, but it gets treated like it's a Sopranos or Deadwood or Mad Men. I don't even mean this as a diss, but it's weird how much aura of "prestige television" it commands despite being so fucking base and nerdy.

Grouchy
07-18-2017, 11:19 PM
Euron Greyjoy looking like a Euro-hipster version of Eddie Murphy in RAW was more distracting than Ed Sheeran.
Hahahah I forgot to comment on that! I hope it's just a one-off thing.

Ezee E
07-19-2017, 03:47 AM
Hahahah I forgot to comment on that! I hope it's just a one-off thing.

I liked his "show." Seems like a rockstar pirate.

Wryan
07-19-2017, 04:44 PM
Are people expecting a resolution to the Sheeran thing? I bet it'll just jump to Arya on the road the next day or whatever. I don't expect all the soldiers to have their throats cut in the morning or anything like that. Seems like just a one-off moment. But yeah, Sheeran was kind of distracting if you know him by sight. And Broadbent, much as I love him, was more or less in Professor mode. Maybe he'll get to do more a la Pryce, but I kinda figure not. He'll probably have to deal with Sam's rule-breaking once it's discovered and make a choice and all that.

Nice opening episode though. Oh to make millions for a few minutes of screen time a week. Tyrion didn't have a line. $2.5 million still apply? Holy cats.

Spinal
07-19-2017, 06:49 PM
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that it's really weird that Dragonstone would be completely abandoned. Even if we are to believe that Stannis truly went 'all in' and didn't even leave a token force to hold it, that would have been snatched up quick, most likely by the Lannisters, seeing as it's a huge strategic asset. One of those things that gets streamlined for time, but still.

Wryan
07-19-2017, 07:06 PM
True. Would have been cool if these guys started coming out of nowhere, cackling and squeaking.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/b3/88/1c/b3881c1c008d51e3590e6f53b43173 fd.jpg

Dukefrukem
07-24-2017, 02:02 AM
That match cut.

Ezee E
07-24-2017, 04:15 AM
That match cut.

Ha. There were a couple.

Dukefrukem
07-24-2017, 12:18 PM
Ha. There were a couple.

Yeh but THAT one.

Peng
07-24-2017, 01:39 PM
One queasy food match cut per episode seems to be this season's goal.

Peng
07-24-2017, 01:45 PM
Also Cersei now has Ellaria who directly killed her daughter. Next episode is not going to be pretty.

Dukefrukem
07-24-2017, 01:49 PM
Hot Pie from the clouds too!

Ezee E
07-24-2017, 02:21 PM
-And just like that, the worst of the Dorne family is gone. I believe the last sister living is the one that seduced Bronn a while back? She is the best of the group. They were never given solid material to work with otherwise.

-Well, one dragon HAS to go done to that ballista, right?

-Melisandra and Davos reunion. I imagine Dany won't take well to witches burning girls at the stake.

-Arya's disappointment when she expects Jon Snow, and sees Sansa/Littlefinger instead. She was almost robotic until she found out about the change.

-Need a Mountain kill scene... Although he's already tortured one Cersei prisoner, I figure Cersei will have other things in mind for her new prisoners.

-Theon to be picked up by Gendry, lol...

-Euron's war cries are beyond bad mugging. Very cheesy actor so far.

-Great ship though.

-Grey Worm is a dead man at Casterly Rock.

-Varys and Littlefinger need SOMETHING. Their scenes are on repeat.

Dukefrukem
07-24-2017, 02:43 PM
What was the last scene we saw at Casterly Rock?

number8
07-24-2017, 02:54 PM
Euron is like a community theater production's version of Ramsay.

Grouchy
07-24-2017, 03:00 PM
Yeah, Euron feels a bit out of place, either because of his contemporary clothing or because he seems to come from a show with a lot worse acting.

Right before the previous episode started I told my friends that Sam Tarly would be the highlight of this seasons and I was SO RIGHT.

Lazlo
07-24-2017, 03:04 PM
What was the last scene we saw at Casterly Rock?

I could be wrong, but I don't think the show has been there before.

Dukefrukem
07-24-2017, 03:09 PM
So just references?

number8
07-24-2017, 03:22 PM
There has never been a scene set in Casterly Rock in both the show or the books. People just talk about it a lot.

Spinal
07-24-2017, 03:32 PM
There has never been a scene set in Casterly Rock in both the show or the books. People just talk about it a lot.

That's why Tyrion's plan was so exciting ... if they actually make it there. Last person with this plan was Robb Stark.

number8
07-24-2017, 03:41 PM
Anyway, that battle at the end was actually very well choreographed, and I was thinking, hey, they finally made the Sand Snakes fight as viciously as they're said to be instead of the shit dance we got last time in Dorne... and then they're done. Kind of a waste.

Ezee E
07-24-2017, 03:45 PM
Anyway, that battle at the end was actually very well choreographed, and I was thinking, hey, they finally made the Sand Snakes fight as viciously as they're said to be instead of the shit dance we got last time in Dorne... and then they're done. Kind of a waste.

Since there's only one now, they can kind of remain the same character without having to film the same quote three times, I suppose.

Spinal
07-24-2017, 03:45 PM
The Nymeria scene would have made a lot more sense if Arya hadn't already decided to go to Winterfell. If she had pondered and then decided to go to King's Landing anyway, then her self-realization on seeing what her wolf (and herself) had become would have had more tension.

Spinal
07-24-2017, 03:46 PM
Since there's only one now, they can kind of remain the same character without having to film the same quote three times, I suppose.

Pretty sure she's only been left alive to be tortured by Cersei in front of Ellaria's eyes.

DavidSeven
07-24-2017, 05:23 PM
I'm guessing it must have been a motif, but the whole episode was so dimly lit that I was squinting through most of it. Did not care for that aesthetic choice, if that's what it was. A little cheesy if it's intentional, and from a practical perspective, it doesn't look good and draws away all scope from the final battle.

Would agree that Euron is too broad a character/performance for me to really enjoy, but the show seems to have a hard time getting away from having at least one thinly-drawn baddy at all times.

Ezee E
07-24-2017, 05:58 PM
I'm guessing it must have been a motif, but the whole episode was so dimly lit that I was squinting through most of it. Did not care for that aesthetic choice, if that's what it was. A little cheesy if it's intentional, and from a practical perspective, it doesn't look good and draws away all scope from the final battle.

Would agree that Euron is too broad a character/performance for me to really enjoy, but the show seems to have a hard time getting away from having at least one thinly-drawn baddy at all times.

Ramsay's obsession with torture and his demented personality (and performance by Rheon) fit so much better. Euron seems forced right now, and didn't seem so insane at the end of last season when he was crowned. I don't really buy that he's doing this to marry Cersei either.

number8
07-24-2017, 09:00 PM
Pretty sure she's only been left alive to be tortured by Cersei in front of Ellaria's eyes.

Ellaria: Kill us. Get it over with.
Euron Lackey: *Creepy rape leer*
Me: Sigh.

Dukefrukem
07-24-2017, 10:44 PM
Ellaria: Kill us. Get it over with.
Euron Lackey: *Creepy rape leer*
Me: Sigh.

Is it that time of year already when we complain about a GoT rape scene even though it's been a common theme in virtually every season since the show started?

It was barely implied in that episode and we're already starting to put on our complain hats.

Peng
07-25-2017, 02:37 AM
It was "complained" widespread only two times, not undeservedly so, with Jaime-Cersei's where the writer has a whole other interpretation than most audience and Sansa's where they focus more on Theon's feelings.

Peng
07-25-2017, 02:40 AM
Ellaria: Kill us. Get it over with.
Euron Lackey: *Creepy rape leer*
Me: Sigh.

I almost have the same reaction before I remember that, as Euron's "gift" to Cersei, they thankfully will remain semi-OK at least until King's Landing first.

Spinal
07-25-2017, 03:02 AM
Jamie-Cersei complaints were totally legit. They messed up that scene. It doesn't make a lot of sense.

The complaints about the Sansa-Ramsay scene are nonsense. The scene was filmed with discretion and the events were a part of Sansa's journey to becoming one of the show's most compelling characters.

Irish
07-25-2017, 04:58 AM
Coming back, I'm surprised

- The plot lines have become more contrived (the show is bending over hard to get Dany and Jon in the same room)

- The format / style never evolved (there's still back to back scenes of two people standing around a stone room, always under torch light, talking about what will happen and what they might do)

- That several characters didn't evolve (the scene between Littlefinger and Snow could have taken place between Littlefinger and Male Lead "X" in any of the previous seasons)

That said, I don't think there's another show around with such terrific production values. The scene with the dire wolf might have been out of place but goddamn if that wasn't awe inspiring.

Ezee E
07-25-2017, 05:32 AM
Coming back, I'm surprised

That said, I don't think there's another show around with such terrific production values. The scene with the dire wolf might have been out of place but goddamn if that wasn't awe inspiring.

Possibly because it's not dealing with the political aspect of the show?

Agreed with you on Littlefinger. With Jon Snow gone, I really hope he has something planned now. Otherwise, Winterfell could be a huge bore until the wights show up.

Grouchy
07-25-2017, 03:55 PM
They're pirates. I expect them to rape female captives. The complaints about that sort of thing are totally ridiculous and insincere since they usually don't extend to the many other violent aspects of the show.

I found the Arya/direwolf scene amazing and I forgot to mention it. In fact, everything Arya (and Sam) this season is my jam.

number8
07-25-2017, 04:46 PM
My usual go-to argument against the "they depict rape because rape is common in this kind of medieval setting" defense which I find wholly unconvincing is that diarrhea is also common but we don't see that depicted also, but I suppose that is not an argument I can use on this show anymore. You win this time, D&D!

Spinal
07-25-2017, 05:19 PM
It's far more likely that one of those would be relevant to character or plot development.

Irish
07-25-2017, 06:07 PM
That smells like fridging, which was always sorta lazy and dumb in the past but nowadays it's hackneyed as hell to boot. I probably wouldn't mind the ridiculous levels of sexual violence if (a) they weren't creeper fantasies from one guy's head and (b) the show applied equally to the men --- beyond said creeper's fixation on castration.

I mean, if pirates are an excuse, wouldn't there be a one or two interested in giving Jon Snow a good, forcible buggering?

Grouchy
07-25-2017, 06:24 PM
I mean, if pirates are an excuse, wouldn't there be a one or two interested in giving Jon Snow a good, forcible buggering?
Yeah, sure. It's a ship that spends months on the sea. It's also a possibility that they would hide it lest they'd be executed by their own partners for being sodomites.

Here's where I zone out completely. In fact, I wasn't going to comment until Duke did it because I feel like I come from a different planet when this type of discussion pops up. I don't mean to say that no fiction is agressive to women in general (usually in ways a lot more subtle than putting the female characters or their sexual integrity in jeopardy) but you're dealing with a show which, so far, has shown:

a. brutal torture with castration and psychological re-programming applied to a male
b. sacrifice of innocent children with the consent of their own parents
c. appearance of male characters (Varys's castrator) who are implied to be in prison for years until they apparently starve to death
d. gruesome skin diseases and their no less gruesome cures
e. a guy feeding his own mother and brother to a pack of starving dogs who is then eaten by those same dogs at the command of a woman he raped

... but what gives you pause, what really crosses the line, is a line of dialogue that implies that a ship of berserk pirates will rape their lady prisoners. Because rape is rape, man. It's hardcore stuff.

I get it in the case of Sansa's scene; I didn't really have a problem with that either, but I get the outrage because she's one of the main characters you're supposed to root for and she'd suffered enough through all the previous seasons. Regardless, it paid off and arguably was the final insult that consolidated her new personality.

Irish
07-25-2017, 07:24 PM
... but what gives you pause, what really crosses the line, is a line of dialogue that implies that a ship of berserk pirates will rape their lady prisoners.

Uh, no? I was responding to the two ideas posted. One, that depictions of rape are acceptable because rape is something that happens in a violent world. Two, that sexual violence can be used as a valid tool for character development.

I think both of those arguments are weak, for the reasons already stated.


It's also a possibility that they would hide it lest they'd be executed by their own partners for being sodomites.

Huh? Was this something that happened on the show or in the books?

Grouchy
07-25-2017, 07:32 PM
Huh? Was this something that happened on the show or in the books?
Nah, I was just imagining the possibility of a gay rapist pirate.

number8
07-25-2017, 07:51 PM
To be honest, I'm tired of this discussion, too. I just wanted to roll my eyes at rape scenes and make snarky comments in peace and not have to argue about it... because it gets tiring when the assumption is always that I bag on rape scenes because it's so visually offensive and brutal that I shittered myself into the safe astral plane. At some point that gets a little insulting for someone like me who has made a point to seek out weird cinema. There's a halfway point between being offended and being bored by a thing, and there's where I'm at with it.

You actually laid out my reason for me with that list. Aesthetically, my problem with the use of rape in cinema is partly from how unimaginative it is. There's endless ways to murder or mutilate someone on this show, as you've pointed out, but all they ever do differently with rape scenes is to change incidental details like where and who's watching, not the act itself. And that's before getting into the gendered ways this is applied. It ain't just the fact that the men don't get threatened with rape as often as Irish pointed out, it's that they get to face the threat of masculine violence in varying forms and tones, whereas with the women their enemies tend to default to "Do as I say or I stick my penis in you." 3 of the 4 female leads on this show have been shown to suffer one or more raping (Sansa, Cersei, Daenerys, there's still time for Arya but the show probably won't go there) while some others like Brienne and Gilly had to fend off attempts (rescued by a dude, in both of their cases).

But if you really want to know why some people's tolerance for rape in fiction tend to be lower than it is for fantastical violence, the main reason is how familiar it is to their real life situation. I can watch this show and never be "triggered" because I lead a fairly fortunate life where no one has ever seriously threatened to behead or castrate or flay me, or force me to hang my children. And if they did, I would be hard-pressed to take that threat seriously. I can't really say the same about the experience of many women watching women be casually threatened with rape, or be put in a situation that allows spousal rape. I don't think this should prevent its narrative use entirely or anything--I'm not trying to be absolutist about this kind of stuff--but it's why I feel that equating the rape scenes and the torture scenes on a show like this is not at all a convincing argument.

Grouchy
07-26-2017, 04:12 AM
At some point that gets a little insulting for someone like me who has made a point to seek out weird cinema.
I acknowledge this. Your recommendations made me watch Takashi Miike films and Battle Royale more than ten years ago, so I know it's not about queasiness.


It ain't just the fact that the men don't get threatened with rape as often as Irish pointed out, it's that they get to face the threat of masculine violence in varying forms and tones, whereas with the women their enemies tend to default to "Do as I say or I stick my penis in you." 3 of the 4 female leads on this show have been shown to suffer one or more raping (Sansa, Cersei, Daenerys, there's still time for Arya but the show probably won't go there) while some others like Brienne and Gilly had to fend off attempts (rescued by a dude, in both of their cases).
Here's where I think your point of view is biased - in a good way, since it's biased for wanting more equality in film and TV, and there's no way I'm saying that's a bad thing. But the truth is that in most cases, it's more difficult to forcibly penetrate a grown man than a grown women because of physical strenght even in today's world. If GoT turned every woman into a ruthless female warrior like Brienne or Yara it would become ridiculous and avoid any semblance of being set in an alternate Middle Ages, more like an adaptation of an RPG than a layered story with an ensemble cast of diverse characters.


But if you really want to know why some people's tolerance for rape in fiction tend to be lower than it is for fantastical violence, the main reason is how familiar it is to their real life situation. I can watch this show and never be "triggered" because I lead a fairly fortunate life where no one has ever seriously threatened to behead or castrate or flay me, or force me to hang my children. And if they did, I would be hard-pressed to take that threat seriously. I can't really say the same about the experience of many women watching women be casually threatened with rape, or be put in a situation that allows spousal rape. I don't think this should prevent its narrative use entirely or anything--I'm not trying to be absolutist about this kind of stuff--but it's why I feel that equating the rape scenes and the torture scenes on a show like this is not at all a convincing argument.
This is absolutely true and I guess it has to do with what you said in an earlier post about the way you view the show. I don't think it's Shakespeare either, but I don't know if I'd compare it with escapist bullshit like Lost or Agents of SHIELD. And I don't know if I consider it a serious drama either. I can't in all seriousness compare its overarching story to the likes of The Wire. But come on, the writing and acting in general are ocassionally outstanding. So I don't consider out of place if it features a rape attempt in its storyline. For the record, we might differ more deeply on this, since I wouldn't consider it inappropriate if it's merely a plot device.

Ezee E
07-31-2017, 04:06 AM
THOUGHTS:

-Bran Stark continues to show why he's the absolute worst thing about the show. What an underwhelming reunion.

-The meeting of Dany and Jon was pretty effective. It won't be as easy as we all had thought.

-People are traveling in locomotives apparently. You can tell they're trying to wrap things up. Would be interesting to create a "timeline" of how this all takes place.

-Melisandre heading East. For what purpose?

-Loved the small montage of Jaime going through Highgarden for some reason, and the battle of Castelry Rock.

-Cersei VS. Ellaria was as good as a scene as we could hope for. None of the predicted rape, just Cersei at her absolute finest. In a way, you could almost root for her in this conflict, right? Well acted by all people too.

-What a sendoff for Olenna.

-How will Theon redeem himself? Is it even possible?

-Bronn sighting!

-With Dany's navy half gone, army spread out, and taking its sweet time in Dragonstone.... They aren't actually really DOING anything it seems.

-Next episode, we have to see the White Walkers take that next town right??

Irish
07-31-2017, 02:41 PM
I'm not any kind of shipper, but if Dany and Jon don't hump I will be severely disappointed. The two of them on screen together is pure bow-chicka-wow-wow.

I got the sense that it'll be Jaime who kills Cersei in the end.

All the stuff with the armies continues to be contrived and more than silly. "Sure, we let them take Casterly Rock. It was super-clever strategy. A foreign army would never knock down the walls, poison the water supply, burn the fields outside the castle, or kill any of the locals." Good plan, Jaime.

The negotiation between Dany and Jon was just as silly. Dany insists that Jon "bend the knee," even though she doesn't need him for anything. Jon insists that Dany give him resources but offers nothing tangible in return. Neither wavers from their initial demands. This in a show where every character behaves like an amateur Machiavelli.

Bran's dialogue to Sansa was fucked up and creepy. Not sure what the point of it was. Anyway, I was surprised this scene didn't cut to one with Arya.

Wasn't a fan of the repetition made for no discernible artistic purpose. Two tense dialogue scenes -- one at the start, one at the end -- conclude with a character dead by poison. Two scenes with characters who are ignorant of folklore. Dany says, "Night King? Huh? Who?" and Sansa says "Three eyed raven? Huh? Who?"

Lena Headey's wig makes her look like she's cosplaying a Romulan.

TGM
07-31-2017, 02:48 PM
I'm not any kind of shipper, but if Dany and Jon don't hump I will be severely disappointed. The two of them on screen together is pure bow-chicka-wow-wow.

I got the sense that it'll be Jaime who kills Cersei in the end.

All the stuff with the armies continues to be contrived and more than silly. "Sure, we let them take Casterly Rock. It was super-clever strategy. A foreign army would never knock down the walls, poison the water supply, burn the fields outside the castle, or kill any of the locals." Good plan, Jaime.

The negotiation between Dany and Jon was just as silly. Dany insists that Jon "bend the knee," even though she doesn't need him for anything. Jon insists that Dany give him resources but offers nothing tangible in return. Neither wavers from their initial demands. This in a show where every character behaves like an amateur Machiavelli.

Bran's dialogue to Sansa was fucked up and creepy. Not sure what the point of it was. Anyway, I was surprised this scene didn't cut to one with Arya.

Wasn't a fan of the repetition made for no discernible artistic purpose. Two tense dialogue scenes -- one at the start, one at the end -- conclude with a character dead by poison. Two scenes with characters who are ignorant of folklore. Dany says, "Night King? Huh? Who?" and Sansa says "Three eyed raven? Huh? Who?"

Lena Headey's wig makes her look like she's cosplaying a Romulan.

Sounds like a case of the show struggling without any source material to properly adapt from.

Peng
07-31-2017, 02:49 PM
I'm not any kind of shipper, but if Dany and Jon don't hump I will be severely disappointed. The two of them on screen together is pure bow-chicka-wow-wow.


I mean, this show never shy away from incest, even though personally I don't think they will go down that route with these two. But I'm just chiming in because there's a strong possibility that you don't know they are aunt and nephew?

Dukefrukem
07-31-2017, 02:50 PM
I got the sense that it'll be Jaime who kills Cersei in the end.



Especially when Jaime was led to believe the entire time it was Tyrion who killed Joffrey.

Spinal
07-31-2017, 02:58 PM
MUCH better writing this episode than last. Cogman's dialogue simply has people stating the basics of what is going on and what they need to do. Beat point, beat point, beat point. Benioff and Weiss inject some humor and warmth back into the characters, which makes them seem human again.

Irish
07-31-2017, 03:28 PM
I mean, this show never shy away from incest, even though personally I don't think they will go down that route with these two. But I'm just chiming in because there's a strong possibility that you don't know they are aunt and nephew?

This was never, afaik, confirmed in the show's story -- only suggested in the editing. Plus, if they characters share a relationship, they are unaware of it.

Which may mean some bow-chicka down the line. *crosses fingers*


Especially when Jaime was led to believe the entire time it was Tyrion who killed Joffrey.

Oooh. Good point. Forgot about that.

Lazlo
07-31-2017, 03:44 PM
This was never, afaik, confirmed in the show's story -- only suggested in the editing. Plus, if they characters share a relationship, they are unaware of it.

Which may mean some bow-chicka down the line. *crosses fingers*

It'll likely be confirmed very soon. It's part of why Bran needs to speak with Jon.

Dukefrukem
07-31-2017, 03:48 PM
It'll likely be confirmed very soon. It's part of why Bran needs to speak with Jon.

Aside from this information, I'm curious at what Bran's purpose is in the show (if anything). He's been the biggest non-factor, most boring storyline through the entire show's run with the exception of the first god damn episode.

Ezee E
07-31-2017, 03:48 PM
Well, from what I gathered, Dany's basically putting Jon in a position that she'll request his resources and armies when they're eventually needed. Obviously Jon has his mind on other things and won't commit to that.

Irish
07-31-2017, 03:54 PM
It'll likely be confirmed very soon. It's part of why Bran needs to speak with Jon.

Don't kill my dreams, man!

Irish
07-31-2017, 04:03 PM
EW has learned that upcoming episodes of a couple series and at least one apparent script have been put online by hackers who breached the company's systems --- with more threatened to be coming soon.

http://ew.com/tv/2017/07/31/hbo-hacked-game-of-thrones/

That's a shame. It's more fun on a week-to-week. This likely means that twitter & facebook will be flooded with spoilers.

Lazlo
07-31-2017, 04:06 PM
Don't kill my dreams, man!

No reason for them to die yet! Targaryans (and the show) have a long history of inbreeding.

Lazlo
07-31-2017, 04:07 PM
http://ew.com/tv/2017/07/31/hbo-hacked-game-of-thrones/

That's a shame. It's more fun on a week-to-week. This likely means that twitter & facebook will be flooded with spoilers.

A shame for sure. So annoying.

Grouchy
07-31-2017, 10:07 PM
Nah, it's pretty much confirmed by the show that Jon is Dany's nephew. They couldn't explain it through dialogue because only one character knows about it so far. Never stopped a Targaryen before.

The dungeon scene continues to feed my sick infatuation with Cersei.

Spinal
07-31-2017, 10:56 PM
The dialogue between Bran and Sansa was intentionally creepy. She expects to reconnect with her little brother. Instead she gets someone who is now approaching omniscience and is increasingly having trouble relating in a normal way with other people. He's been warned about this throughout the series. Or maybe it was the books. I don't remember, but someone warned him.

Grouchy
07-31-2017, 11:05 PM
Yeah, Bran is basically Dr. Manhattan right now. His detachment is something to be expected.

I thought the Casterly Rock invasion was underwhelming and a bit rushed. But the final scene was gold. Now I have to find some footage of Diana Rigg in some medieval film and imagine what young Olenna must have been like.

Ezee E
07-31-2017, 11:47 PM
The dialogue between Bran and Sansa was intentionally creepy. She expects to reconnect with her little brother. Instead she gets someone who is now approaching omniscience and is increasingly having trouble relating in a normal way with other people. He's been warned about this throughout the series. Or maybe it was the books. I don't remember, but someone warned him.

I don't remember any warning, so it may have been the books.

Spinal
07-31-2017, 11:53 PM
I don't remember any warning, so it may have been the books.

Jojen didn't say anything about spending too much time disconnected from his body? Ah well, perhaps you're right. Hard to remember where it came from.

Scar
08-01-2017, 12:19 AM
Now I have to find some footage of Diana Rigg in some medieval film and imagine what young Olenna must have been like.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170801/b60468e0228a374a9bc2396ec5e120 dd.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170801/aadc1709a0339f426ccce0629d2400 d1.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170801/f5ea08eef6c37600620362dab8c2ea 42.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Spinal
08-01-2017, 10:16 PM
Carice van Houten on the scene from Season 4 where she is seen without her ruby choker: "That was an oops moment." (http://www.elle.com/culture/movies-tv/a46977/carice-van-houten-melisandre-death-prophecy-game-of-thrones/)

Dukefrukem
08-01-2017, 10:23 PM
Nice work to those who noticed.

Spinal
08-01-2017, 11:13 PM
Also buried in that article at the bottom ... Van Houten and Nikolaj Coster-Waldau are going to be starring in the next De Palma film, Domino.


Van Houten and Coster-Waldau play two cops whose investigation into their fellow officer's murder leads them down a rabbit hole populated by CIA agents, ISIS cells, and an international terror plot.

Dukefrukem
08-07-2017, 01:54 AM
So many times in this episode I was 100% positive more than one popular character were going to die.

Also- Fuck Bran.

Ezee E
08-07-2017, 02:53 AM
So many times in this episode I was 100% positive more than one popular character were going to die.

Also- Fuck Bran.

Ha. For a small moment, the way the clouds were set up, I thought the White Walkers had arrived to Highgarden, and not the Dothraki.

Ezee E
08-07-2017, 04:51 AM
-Like Duke, I thought multiple characters were going to die this episode. Main ones being a huge Brienne of Tarth accident or Bronn/Jamie sacrifice with a dragon. Things really have been pretty easy for Arya this season.

-Littlefinger needs to hit the road quick. Now that he's dealing with magic, he just needs to head to where it's warm.

-Seriously did think the White Walkers were arriving to Highgarden instead of Dothraki. It made no sense, but I was pumped for that idea.

-Jaime, Nikolaj Coster-Waldau, has really picked it up this season in terms of acting.

-About time Dany used her army to take down rival armies. And what a way to see it happen. Game of Thrones' war scenes are excellent at framing battlefield tactics.

-What's taking down the Dothraki at this point? White Walkers and the cold seem to be the only things that can do it.

-Hound needed.

Peng
08-07-2017, 05:12 AM
Love Cersei and the Iron Bank cackling together before Drogon happened to their gold.

Grouchy
08-07-2017, 05:28 AM
Huh, guys? What the hell are you talking about? Jaime Lannister just died.

Spinal
08-07-2017, 06:05 AM
Huh, guys? What the hell are you talking about? Jaime Lannister just died.

Tyrion was just as 'drowned' at one point.

Spinal
08-07-2017, 06:07 AM
Things really have been pretty easy for Arya this season.

Which is why I think ...

... the Faceless Men aren't done with her.

Irish
08-07-2017, 06:39 AM
This episode was fan service with a battle scene tacked onto the end. I enjoyed the hell out of it. Easily the most fun I've had watching the show. I was on the edge of my seat for the last 20 minutes.

Particularly liked the snappy dialogue:

- "Do I have to call you 'Lady Stark' now?"
- "Yes."

- "Who taught you that?"
- "No one."

- "What do you think of her?"
- "Who?"
- "I believe you know of whom I speak."
- "I think she has a good heart."
- "A 'good heart'? I've noticed you staring at her 'good heart.'"

- "How many men in the north do we have to fight him? 10,000? Less?"
- "Fewer."
- "What?"

- "Men shit themselves when they die. Didn't they teach you that in fancy lad school? I learned it when I was 5."

The Iron Bank stuff was boring and a bit redundant. (I still don't understand the economics of Westeros. How does the Iron Bank survive as an independent entity? How did no one one Dany's team understand the strategic importance of High Garden?)

The 'bend the knee' stuff continues to be dumb. Like, maybe Dany should Wiki "Finlandization" and realize that it's easier to get people to come over to your side after you've conquered 6 out of 7 kingdoms. Not when the only land you control is a rocky beach and a lone, empty castle.

I like that Arya repeatedly tells everyone, unprompted, that she plans on murdering people and they laugh thinking it's a joke and then she laughs too. It's super fucking creepy because we know she's dead serious. It's also sad, because here's a teenage girl whose entire life is about nothing except ugly revenge.

Foreshadow that Valerian dagger much? Sheesh.

Does Littlefinger have a job? Seriously, what does this dude do all day? Everybody else is running around planning strategy, administering their land, or committing murder. And just how has he survived so long? Nobody likes him and he has no friends.

They've worked hard to establish Bran as a cheesy narrative out. He's a walking deus ex. I hope they don't abuse his powers, but they probably will.

I liked that Arya is young enough to want to show off, but also experienced enough to realize her mistake when she sees Littlefinger gawking at her.

It would have been fun and interesting if Brienne had caught the "no one" reference, or recognized Arya's fighting style.

Tyrion's allegiance to Dany never made any sense to me. Both in context and out, I never believed it. This episode sorta hightlights the obvious contradiction in his fealty. Hopefully, they'll do something interesting with it.

I didn't think anyone would die because this show avoids traditional fantasy motifs. Getting cut down by Dany's dragon mid-battle would be a hero's death for anyone, the kind that other characters would sing songs about. GRRM prefers to kill people in undignified ways --- like when they're sitting on the toilet.

number8
08-07-2017, 02:29 PM
Davos saying "fewer" was so great because it's both a callback joke to Stannis and a reminder of Davos' huge development as a character, given that he was completely illiterate when he first appeared on the show. That's fan service done extra right.

There's quite a few callbacks in this ep, actually. "Fewer" and Bran's "chaos is a ladder" make sense since Davos and him are intentionally quoting someone. Dany quoting Jon Snow verbatim is a little weirder. Not sure if that's just meant to be dramatic irony or further hint that they're related.

Henry Gale
08-07-2017, 02:39 PM
Very solid episode with a sumptuously crafted battle ending. It definitely didn't annoy me nearly as much as the previous week's episode, where Dany was especially insufferable and largely took the air of excitement out of her and Jon's meeting, but I think it might've been more Clarke's stilted performance failing to convey her stern strength than the writing. Also the Casterly Rock ambush felt uncharacteristically cheap and antiseptic in both its visuals and scripting. Table-setting, etc, but that seems like it's going to be overarching crutch that his short season falls onto with this penultimate season.

Bran is still hilariously bleak this week though. I feel like the series did very little to transition him into his new personality and I'm not sure how intentional the comedic dissonance is for his reunions with his sisters. The line about him really having died in the cave did connect some emotional dots.


Huh, guys? What the hell are you talking about? Jaime Lannister just died.

Naaaahh.

I was honestly more on edge worried that Bronn would bite it-- And really, is his armour that much different from Jaime's to not sink to potential death too? No way they kill both... -- since even in the least of storylines (Dorne, obviously) he's always been one of the most entertaining characters to watch throughout the series.

Peng
08-07-2017, 03:03 PM
Everyone has been hard on Bran since last week (to often hilarious results and memes, mind) but I feel like Lucy put me in a perfect mindset to receive his storyline, strange as that may sound.

number8
08-07-2017, 03:04 PM
Tyrion was just as 'drowned' at one point.

Oh, I'll count this as a callback also.

Grouchy
08-07-2017, 03:49 PM
I was honestly more on edge worried that Bronn would bite it-- And really, is his armour that much different from Jaime's to not sink to potential death too? No way they kill both... -- since even in the least of storylines (Dorne, obviously) he's always been one of the most entertaining characters to watch throughout the series.
Whoever shoved him aside from the dragon's fiery breath is dead too, but I don't think that was Bronn. I thought it was Dickon Tarly.

I know he's one of the main characters and the obvious cliffhanger seems to be playing for a resoution next week, but I really think he's bought it. His death comes at precisely the right time to provoke good character development for Tyrion and Cersei. And his scene with Olenna last week was pure foreshadowing. That might be intentionally tricky, but still. Also, there are very few logical reasons for his survival - who's going to pull him from the water in the middle of the battle? Tyrion? How, exactly?

I don't hate Dr. Manhattan Bran. He's way more distinctive and interesting than the Bran we've had so far.

Dukefrukem
08-07-2017, 04:01 PM
V
Naaaahh.

I was honestly more on edge worried that Bronn would bite it-- And really, is his armour that much different from Jaime's to not sink to potential death too? No way they kill both... -- since even in the least of storylines (Dorne, obviously) he's always been one of the most entertaining characters to watch throughout the series.

The real question is, how the fuck was the water so deep in that area when he was literally galloping through it on a horse?

That's just drama in between episodes is all.

Dukefrukem
08-07-2017, 04:03 PM
I know he's one of the main characters and the obvious cliffhanger seems to be playing for a resoution next week, but I really think he's bought it. His death comes at precisely the right time to provoke good character development for Tyrion and Cersei. And his reunion scene with Olenna last week was pure foreshadowing. That might be intentionally tricky, but still. Also, there are very few logical reasons for his survival - who's going to pull him from the water in the middle of the battle? Tyrion? How, exactly?

I don't hate Dr. Manhattan Bran. He's way more distinctive and interesting than the Bran we've had so far.

Though, that would be badass if Cersei thought he was still alive, which allowed Arya to wear a Jaime mask to get close and kill her.

Irish
08-07-2017, 04:14 PM
I know he's one of the main characters and the obvious cliffhanger seems to be playing for a resoution next week, but I really think he's bought it. His death comes at precisely the right time to provoke good character development for Tyrion and Cersei.

It would also be a good capper for his arc -- so in one sense I agree. In another, portraying his death that way would violate the show's established norms (whenever somebody dies it's hyper-violent, ugly, and obviously final. If Jaime is dead, that was the gentlest death in the history of Westeros.)

I also think -- and this is pure speculation -- that they're gonna be real careful with who they kill off from now on. They don't have a lot of major characters left and the showrunners wouldn't want to take outsized risks. I mean, there's gonna be a legacy here.

You either get cancelled early and become Joss Whedon or you showrun too long and become Damon Lindelof. :D

Spinal
08-07-2017, 04:39 PM
Davos saying "fewer" was so great because it's both a callback joke to Stannis and a reminder of Davos' huge development as a character, given that he was completely illiterate when he first appeared on the show. That's fan service done extra right.


Probably my favorite running joke of the series. Love that they kept it going longer than Stannis.

Spinal
08-07-2017, 04:43 PM
Why would they make a point of having Jaime avoid dragonfire, only to drown in a pool of water? That makes no sense.

Also, if he dies, Cersei never finds out about Olenna.

Spinal
08-07-2017, 04:55 PM
Oh, I'll count this as a callback also.

Jorah Mormont, freshly arrived from Oldtown, shows up to pull him out. In the process, gets E. coli. Promptly returns to Oldtown.

Grouchy
08-07-2017, 06:14 PM
I also think -- and this is pure speculation -- that they're gonna be real careful with who they kill off from now on. They don't have a lot of major characters left and the showrunners wouldn't want to take outsized risks. I mean, there's gonna be a legacy here.
Agreed, but you have to remember they are still allegedly following Martin's storyline. If Jaime dies at that point in the still unpublished books they can't really overlook that in the series.

DavidSeven
08-07-2017, 07:08 PM
Really cool episode.

The show's gotten some flack for teasing too long in the past, but to its credit, there's no other show that can create the type of electricity we got from Jaime and Daenerys merely being on the same set together. A pay-off like that takes a multi-year commitment to patience. The moment he rushes at her... that's a feeling of exhilaration that I can't even liken to any recent movie experience I've had.

And yeah, as others have said, this is a show with real stakes. I feared that any one of a half dozen characters could've eaten it in the last 30 minutes of this episode.

Ezee E
08-07-2017, 08:30 PM
As Irish said, what IS Littlefinger's purpose now anyway? I really hope he gets to do something before he's stabbed to death.

Varys too for that matter.

Pretty sure that Jaime will be pulled out and used as a prisoner (callback??) to trade for the captured Greyjoy. Not that Cersei would necessarily care anyway.

One last thought, there's been a lot of talk about food. The North is running out of it, and the dragons burned a good chunk to the ground.

Ezee E
08-07-2017, 09:07 PM
Also referring to Irish's thoughts on Bran. Most fans think that he'll ward (?) the dragons at some point.

I hope we get more of the Faceless Men. I feel that subplot ended pretty weak for all the power they apparently have.

Spinal
08-07-2017, 10:46 PM
Also referring to Irish's thoughts on Bran. Most fans think that he'll ward (?) the dragons at some point.


It's an interesting thought and certainly would be a logical expansion of Bran's known powers. The question is: why would it be necessary considering the dragons are under Daenerys' control anyway?

A few possibilities:
1. Daenerys dies or is otherwise incapacitated.
2. A villain finds a way to control one of them by magic.
3. The White Walkers unearth some sort of ice dragon and Bran finds a way to warg into that.

Ezee E
08-07-2017, 11:02 PM
It's an interesting thought and certainly would be a logical expansion of Bran's known powers. The question is: why would it be necessary considering the dragons are under Daenerys' control anyway?

A few possibilities:
1. Daenerys dies or is otherwise incapacitated.
2. A villain finds a way to control one of them by magic.
3. The White Walkers unearth some sort of ice dragon and Bran finds a way to warg into that.

My own guess is #2. I've heard the books have some type of horn that controls them. Perhaps the show has Qyburn create one of those now that the ballistas are too tough to shoot.

Unless they put ten of those on King's Landing, which would be sad to see for the dragons.

Grouchy
08-08-2017, 02:12 AM
I don't remember if this was explained in Euron's introduction or if it's from the books but I think Euron at least claims to have that horn at some point.

Ezee E
08-08-2017, 03:26 AM
I don't remember if this was explained in Euron's introduction or if it's from the books but I think Euron at least claims to have that horn at some point.

Yeah, I think that's from the books. The unreleased one.

Peng
08-08-2017, 04:31 AM
Also, Iris' shipping now has in-show support. Davos' "I saw you staring at her good heart" to Jon is hilarious (and just a bit ick). Watch out Jaime and Cersei; another incest power couple is coming to take your place!

Wryan
08-08-2017, 12:16 PM
Pretty heart-pounding episode. Certain that Jaime is not dead. Bronn swung away with some epic hero shit. Never been too swayed by Dany as a character or a leader. She vacillates hard between sensible and nigh tyrannical. If this is the Targaryen way, perhaps the throne is not for you.

bac0n
08-08-2017, 01:15 PM
I echo Duke's observation wondering about how a lake can be 50 feet deep a mere 10 feet from the shore. Sure, it's not impossible, but really? It all seems merely a device to allow Jaime to survive the battle to be reunited with Tyrion, deliver the news of Joffrey's killer to Cersei, or both. The Dothraki, you will recall from season 1, aren't exactly known for taking prisoners.

I wouldn't be surprised if, next episode, during the post battle cleanup & burning of the bodies, an unarmored Jaime pulls himself onto shore and collapses, and right as a dothraki rider is closing in for the kill, Tyrion stops it, and voila, there's your reunion. His interactions with Dany, given that he killed her father, should be particularly interesting.

Spinal
08-08-2017, 04:02 PM
In a scene with a fire-breathing dragon, is a mysteriously deep body of water really that big of a deal?

Grouchy
08-08-2017, 04:09 PM
In a scene with a fire-breathing dragon, is a mysteriously deep body of water really that big of a deal?
Well, yeah, of course. Dragons exist in the world of Game of Thrones - that doesn't mean that geography or logic have to take a hike. What I mean is that dragons aren't a breach of logic, they are part of the world.

Regardless, I have no problem with the depth of the lake. Jamie was pushed aside by a body in heavy armor. Besides, it would be impossible for him to get up even in a shallow pool of water. His fucking hand is made of gold.

Spinal
08-08-2017, 04:27 PM
Well, yeah, of course. Dragons exist in the world of Game of Thrones - that doesn't mean that geography or logic have to take a hike. What I mean is that dragons aren't a breach of logic, they are part of the world.


But if the biodiversity can be different, why can't the geography be different? Why is one logical and the other not? Why couldn't I just as well say, "Deep lakes aren't a breach of logic, they are part of the world."

Irish
08-08-2017, 04:45 PM
The lake feels like a cheat because of the way the scene is shot and the way the space is depicted. The director uses the flat plane of the camera to pretend that peripheral vision doesn't exist.

There's little indication that the lake is even there until the final shot. It's visible in the far background before the battle starts. Once the fighting begins, it's barely shown. If the space were more established, if we knew where everyone was in relation to the road and the lake and the mountains, then Jamie's heroic charge would seem more calculated. We'd guess the payoff and there'd be no suspense.

The biodiversity angle is a reach. The show never indicates that the physical world of Westeros differs in fundamental ways from our own, aside from the obvious magical creatures. We might as well guess that it's an artificial lake and used as a reservoir for the nearby castle.

Personally, I don't think it matters all that much. This particular technique --- transferring the camera's limitations to the characters -- is a pet peeve of mine. You can see it a lot in horror movies when the director wants to set up a jump scare. Spielberg used it in "Jurassic Park," too.

But, I dunno, I was having too much fun during the final battle. The fucking dragon fire was something to see. Bronn on the turret was something to see. And Jaime's charge while Tyrion mumbled, "Flee, you idiot," was terrific. I liked the build-up and the payoff so I'm willing to cut the technique a little slack.

Grouchy
08-08-2017, 04:52 PM
But if the biodiversity can be different, why can't the geography be different? Why is one logical and the other not? Why couldn't I just as well say, "Deep lakes aren't a breach of logic, they are part of the world."
Well, what Irish says. There's never any indication that there's anything so different about the basic geographical features of Westeros. By contrast, dragons are talked about even before they appear and the audience knows they are real even if most characters don't believe in them.


The lake feels like a cheat because of the way the scene is shot and the way the space is depicted. The director uses the flat plane of the camera to pretend that peripheral vision doesn't exist.
What do you mean by this? I remember the lake being shown from Tyrion's point of view.

Wryan
08-08-2017, 05:04 PM
The lake is also briefly depicted when we cut to Drogon flying over the water, causing the water trail beneath him, barreling down on the troops. Plus a second shot of the reverse: Jaime seeing the dragon coming up the...river?...or something like that. It's hazy and definitely sort of "betcha forgot that was there huh!?" and a bit silly that way. But I suppose he'd need to fall into the water to avoid being burned.

Y'all are making me realize how much better it would have been if Bronn tackled Jaime off the horse and they both just fell face first into the mud, lying there army in arm. Fade to black.

Irish
08-08-2017, 05:08 PM
What do you mean by this? I remember the lake being shown from Tyrion's point of view.

It's difficult because the way the scene is edited and blocked. We can definitely see the lake if we look for it and pay more attention to the terrain than the characters. But the director does a pretty good job obfuscating the space. Some shots suggest two armies meeting in the middle of a huge field. In others, we can see that the road clearly runs against the waterfront but in others, like when the dragon flies overhead and fries the Lannister army, the lake isn't visible at all. A lot of the shots are tighter than necessary, and we never see exactly how big the lake is in relation to the field next to it. The camera also switches perspective between people on the ground and Dany above, which further confuses things.

ETA: What Wryan said about it, ie, "betcha forgot that was there huh!?"

There's a coupla shots where it looks more like a river than a lake, especially during one of the dragon's approaches and Jaime's charge at the end.

Irish
08-08-2017, 05:24 PM
if Bronn tackled Jaime off the horse and they both just fell face first into the mud, lying there army in arm

Sounds like I'm not the only one who's been shipping :D

bac0n
08-08-2017, 06:27 PM
The point i was trying to make, is just that the whole damn thing looks like a setup.

number8
08-08-2017, 06:41 PM
They should've had a shot of Jamie stone skipping across the surface of the lake and then only sinking near the middle.

Spinal
08-08-2017, 07:12 PM
I'm trying to imagine what it's like to produce an episode of television where you coordinate multiple people on fire, horsemen firing arrows while standing on the back of their mounts, a guy getting blasted with a giant crossbow, timed explosions and numerous complicated dragon effects, and then have somebody complain because you made your lake too deep.

Irish
08-08-2017, 07:18 PM
A well-timed interview with the episode's director:


What was the trickiest thing to pull off?

All of it is difficult. The logistics of martialing all of those background performers, stunt people. Dealing with fire. The evolution of the battle as you move from an intact wagon train to various stages of attack, until finally you’re in a full field of fire — this horrific, Bosch-like like landscape at the end. Each one of those stages required a herculean effort from the art department to move things around, to adjust the landscape, the burned grass, the number of bodies and burn victims and things like that. There was a lot to track.

And when you’re also dealing with a character that’s actually not there — and that’s Drogon — it’s very difficult. You’re dealing with eye lines and tennis balls, and trying to get 200 people to react appropriately to a horrific dragon, who’s just a guy with a long stick running around.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/08/arts/television/game-of-thrones-dragon-battle-was-inspired-by-apocalypse-now-and-saving-private-ryan.html

(Sadly, he doesn't talk about the lake.)

Grouchy
08-08-2017, 07:54 PM
Personally, I don't think it matters all that much. This particular technique --- transferring the camera's limitations to the characters -- is a pet peeve of mine. You can see it a lot in horror movies when the director wants to set up a jump scare. Spielberg used it in "Jurassic Park," too.
It's also something of a trademark of Sergio Leone. Characters appear surprisingly from the edge of the frame even if the scene is set in the middle of the desert and they should have been seen coming from miles away.

I think it's like everything else - as long as it's well done it causes zero problems.

Wryan
08-09-2017, 11:57 AM
That moment in Jurassic Park bothered me from the first viewing, tho. The T-Rex storms over the fence at ground level but a few minutes later the cars are pushed over a cliff principally right where they were? Da fuck?

Also, check out this beautiful work from Bayard Wu:

https://cdnb.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/006/909/621/large/bayard-wu-game-of-thrones.jpg

Dukefrukem
08-09-2017, 12:19 PM
That moment in Jurassic Park bothered me from the first viewing, tho. The T-Rex storms over the fence at ground level but a few minutes later the cars are pushed over a cliff principally right where they were? Da fuck?


Fuck. I'm never going to not see that now.

Ashley
08-09-2017, 04:26 PM
Dany quoting Jon Snow verbatim is a little weirder. Not sure if that's just meant to be dramatic irony or further hint that they're related.

This one felt weird to me too, but more because that quote doesn't really fit these characters all that well. For starters, Jon's reluctance to bend the knee has nothing at all to do with pride. Secondly, Dany criticizing anyone else for pride is a bit rich considering we get at least one scene per season in which she gives a big speech proclaiming her own greatness to anyone within earshot. But most importantly, in this scenario Dany isn't Jon, she's Stannis, demanding fealty-or-else (which made Missandei's "We follow her because we choose too and she'd be totally cool if we decided to leave tomorrow" speech feel out of place to me). And the whole reason why Jon was able to succeed where Stannis failed in earning the allegiance of the Wildlings was because he came to their aid without demanding they give up their all of their freedom. Even now, when every one of the them literally owes their life to him, he treats them more as allies and equals than subjects.

Regarding Bran and Littlefinger, maybe I'm alone here, but after six seasons spent watching Littlefinger smirking and scheming and causing massive amounts of pain and destruction with zero consequences, I found it awfully satisfying to see him basically shit his pants when Bran quoted his signature line (that he should have no way at all of knowing) back to him. I can't recall ever seeing him that rattled before, which is part of the reason why I think Littlefinger's story this season in meant to mirror Ned in King's Landing. This time Littlefinger is the one who's left an environment he's comfortable in, where he's able to wield a great deal of power, and has found himself in a world where the rules are different and he looks to be in over his head. The Northern lords have already messed with his plans by ignoring Jon's bastard status to name him KitN and are generally more concerned with surviving winter than political games; deception and bribery aren't likely to do much good against ice zombies; and on top of all that he now he has to deal with two more Stark siblings that he'd likely written off as dead, but in fact they're not only alive and in Winterfell, they both came back with fucking superpowers. The only person his usual bullshit is still working on is Robin Arryn, and even there he's vulnerable because Sansa knows that Littlefinger murdered his mother. The walls seem to be closing in on him and while I think he still has at least one major play left in him* I really don't think he's going to survive the season.

*My guess: Jon does end up bending the knee to Dany (or possibly entering into a marriage alliance) and Littlefinger uses the resulting furor to try to convince Sansa to wrest control of the North away from him.

Spinal
08-09-2017, 04:43 PM
Love those thoughts about Littlefinger. I hope Sansa or somebody else gets the equivalent of his "I warned you never to trust me" moment from Season 1.

Regarding Daenaerys, Jon and Missandei: I think it's OK to have dialogue in which characters' perception of the situation differs from our perception of the situation. I think you're absolutely right to observe that Jon's refusal to bend the knee isn't about pride. But I don't think it's wrong for the writers to suggest Daenerys sees it that way. You're absolutely right that Missandei might be mistaken about her current reality and the extent of her leader's forgiveness. But I don't think it's wrong for the writers to suggest that's how the character perceives her relationship with the queen.

number8
08-09-2017, 06:02 PM
The Missandei scene was absolutely meant to be ironic. That's why it ended with Davos smugly smirking and saying "Right."

Irish
08-09-2017, 06:56 PM
I apologize in advance :D


http://i.imgur.com/gQVddsw.jpg?1

DavidSeven
08-09-2017, 09:47 PM
Thematically, I think a lot of signs point to Daenerys's path to the throne being inevitably doomed. Seems to be a concerted effort this season to frame her approach in a particular way, an approach that maybe isn't that far off from those of her enemies.

Ezee E
08-10-2017, 03:29 AM
By the way, what kind of reaction would you expect from Dany when it turns out that Jon Snow is also a Targaryen? Doesn't seem like one to just change her opinion and think he's as equally entitled to the throne.

Grouchy
08-10-2017, 04:35 PM
By the way, what kind of reaction would you expect from Dany when it turns out that Jon Snow is also a Targaryen? Doesn't seem like one to just change her opinion and think he's as equally entitled to the throne.
He wouldn't be, though, right? He's not a direct descendant of the Mad King.

Wryan
08-10-2017, 04:41 PM
I say you put Dany and Jon on opposite sides of a field and let the dragons waddle over adorably to whichever they feel most drawn to. Best of three gets the throne. The loser is ceremonially eaten.

number8
08-10-2017, 04:50 PM
It was always going to be settled with musical chairs. It's like you folks don't pay attention to the title of the show.

Wryan
08-10-2017, 04:51 PM
It was always going to be settled with musical chairs. It's like you folks don't pay attention to the title of the show.

A Hollywood decision! Song of Ice and Fire suggests it'll be a bard-off.

Spinal
08-10-2017, 05:04 PM
He wouldn't be, though, right? He's not a direct descendant of the Mad King.

He's [presumably] the son of Rhaegar. Rhaegar was the son of Aerys. The problem isn't that he isn't in line. The problem is that his parents weren't married.

Wryan
08-14-2017, 02:39 AM
Quote Quoting Grouchy (view post)
He wouldn't be, though, right? He's not a direct descendant of the Mad King.

He's [presumably] the son of Rhaegar. Rhaegar was the son of Aerys. The problem isn't that he isn't in line. The problem is that his parents weren't married.

*Cough*

number8
08-14-2017, 03:46 AM
Good to know that this show is not above referencing its own memes.

Ezee E
08-14-2017, 04:10 AM
-Beric Dondarrion has the coolest voice.

-The show knows its fans and is showing off exactly what they think the fans want. In this case, I think they are absolutely nailing it. I haven't read the books, but will be interesting to see if/how much is different from what GRRM wants.

-How long has this season been in terms of years? Seems like it would be at least 2-3 years right now. *timewarp issue that I don't care about - everyone's hair stays the same*.

-Finally got to see Littlefinger be Littlefinger.

-No Greyjoys at all and no mention of Euron is kind of weird. No sighting of The Mountain at all either.

-How much inner fighting occurs during next week's battle? OVER/UNDER on major character deaths? Betting starts at 2.

-Still have to wonder what Dany's opinion will be when it turns out that she's not the true heir.

-Cersei's going to agree to the plan, in hopes to trap the main players in a trap when they eventually arrive, right?

Watashi
08-14-2017, 04:24 AM
I've been wary of the last few seasons, but this season has been incredible. Things are actually happening! Just the right amount of fan service without being overbearing. I thought I had this season mapped out, but now I have no idea what the last episodes hold. Good stuff.

Also, the show is going to really push Clarke and Harrington for Emmys in these last two seasons.

Grouchy
08-14-2017, 04:56 AM
I had to laugh at the crowd pleasing way in which they set up the zombie capturing party was set u. I think the show was sharing the laugh, too. Look at the scene where Davos makes contact with Gendry. "I'm ready. Let's go". The boat scene was a lot of fun, too.

I continue to be fascinated with Cersei. She's one of my favorite characters in the show and certainly one of the most complex antagonists it has. Good to see that Littlefinger is not going to go quietly into the night too.

amberlita
08-14-2017, 06:11 AM
It's all just moving way too fast for me. It wouldn't be a problem if the pacing hadn't been so deliberate in prior seasons, which admittedly had its drawbacks but at least meant that the character deaths and abrupt shifts in story arcs landed as monumental events. Now it's rapid-fire pace and everything is predictable with conveniences in story and timeline just to unite characters.

Case in point: two episodes later and I assume the sand snakes in the dungeon are dead? The daughter has to be dead, for sure, since the poison would have taken just days. But either we return to see the Mother Snake (sorry, I'm shit with names) still alive, straining credulity given all the events and necessary travel time that has taken place in the ensuing episodes, or she's dead but we don't see it happen -- which seems like a sad way to off the character.

Davos was on point with the comic relief this episode. "Don't pay attention to me. What have I done aside from living to a ripe old age?"

Grouchy
08-14-2017, 08:09 AM
It's all just moving way too fast for me. It wouldn't be a problem if the pacing hadn't been so deliberate in prior seasons, which admittedly had its drawbacks but at least meant that the character deaths and abrupt shifts in story arcs landed as monumental events. Now it's rapid-fire pace and everything is predictable with conveniences in story and timeline just to unite characters.
Yeah, this is clearly true. It's a shame and I think it has to do with the fact that they are not adapting from Martin's novels anymore. I only read up to the opening chapters of the third book but that was enough to realize that Martin puts insane amounts of backstory into everything. So the writers of the show could move the story at any pace they wished, since they always had some fully fleshed character detail or plot detour to draw from. Instead, for the last couple of seasons, I'm not even sure what they're adapting anymore, and I'm guessing it's a bare bones storyline.

At the same time I realize that as long as the books remain unwritten moving forward was the only possible choice. The show is at the peak of its popularity and all the actors are getting into movie deals. You can't keep such a massive cast forever.


Case in point: two episodes later and I assume the sand snakes in the dungeon are dead? The daughter has to be dead, for sure, since the poison would have taken just days. But either we return to see the Mother Snake (sorry, I'm shit with names) still alive, straining credulity given all the events and necessary travel time that has taken place in the ensuing episodes, or she's dead but we don't see it happen -- which seems like a sad way to off the character.
Eh, I always assumed that was the end of Ellaria. And yeah, the Dorne storyline just went nowhere. House Tyrell and House Tarly were also obliterated this season but they went down in much more meaningful ways.


Davos was on point with the comic relief this episode. "Don't pay attention to me. What have I done aside from living to a ripe old age?"
True. I think the show needs this type of character right now precisely because of how convenient everything has become. They went from establishing that everything takes a long time to happen to just throwing plot point after plot point at us. Ser Davos throwing one liners makes the contrivances more palatable.

Dukefrukem
08-14-2017, 12:23 PM
I continue to be fascinated with Cersei. She's one of my favorite characters in the show and certainly one of the most complex antagonists it has. Good to see that Littlefinger is not going to go quietly into the night too.

Her decent into madness is super fascinating to watch. Jaime basically told her she has no chance at winning this war against Dany's army and she's like, we'll fight until we die.

Dukefrukem
08-14-2017, 01:36 PM
Another part of this episode I loved was when Sam's girl was reading through the scrolls and came across the annulment section. I thought for sure that would be the Jon Snow parentage reveal. But instead it was the showrunners fucking with us.

number8
08-14-2017, 02:09 PM
The Arya/Littlefinger sequence was pretty hilarious. "Creep on me? No, I creep on you."

number8
08-14-2017, 02:18 PM
Another part of this episode I loved was when Sam's girl was reading through the scrolls and came across the annulment section. I thought for sure that would be the Jon Snow parentage reveal. But instead it was the showrunners fucking with us.

This scene was so great in how casual it is. We're all like "Wait, what the fuck did she just say?" and Sam is just "omg shut up gilly i need to be a great man now, pack your shit."

But it's a hell of a bombshell. It means Jon is not actually a bastard. That's huge.

Dukefrukem
08-14-2017, 02:24 PM
Heh. This season has been much more clever and self-aware than the previous six seasons. Did they get new show writers?

bac0n
08-14-2017, 02:37 PM
All I know is that next episode, shit is gonna get real.

It seems all the biggest events happen in the second to the last episode of the season (Eddard's beheading, Battle of Blackwater, Red Wedding, Wildling Attack on The Wall, Battle of the Bastards, etc.)

Spinal
08-14-2017, 04:39 PM
*Cough*

Yes, I made an involuntary noise and fist pump when this little bit of information casually came out of Gilly's mouth. Oh, Daenerys is NOT going to like this.

Spinal
08-14-2017, 04:42 PM
The Arya/Littlefinger sequence was pretty hilarious. "Creep on me? No, I creep on you."

Arya's stealth mode this episode was kind of like the toddler that covers its eyes and then thinks no one can see them. This is why you don't leave ninja training early.

Spinal
08-14-2017, 04:49 PM
Case in point: two episodes later and I assume the sand snakes in the dungeon are dead? The daughter has to be dead, for sure, since the poison would have taken just days. But either we return to see the Mother Snake (sorry, I'm shit with names) still alive, straining credulity given all the events and necessary travel time that has taken place in the ensuing episodes, or she's dead but we don't see it happen -- which seems like a sad way to off the character.



I think there's a very haunting parallel with the scene where Bronn and the sand snakes were in prison together.

In one, Tyene is being held feet away from Bronn, still confident, as she teases him with her body. He wants to ravish her, but she is just out of reach.

In the other, Tyene is being held feet away from Ellaria, confidence shattered, as her body begins the long process of decay. Her mother wants to save her, but she is just out of reach.

Spinal
08-14-2017, 06:50 PM
Gilly's reveal also has ramifications for book readers.

Spoilers for Book 5 of the series regarding a character not in the show:

It means that Elia Martell's kids would likely be considered bastards, I suppose. This explains why Aegon (the Young Griff) actually has no claim to the throne. Not that I ever thought he would be crowned. But I never could figure out what Martin was doing with reintroducing him five books in as an adult.

number8
08-14-2017, 07:48 PM
Gilly's reveal also has ramifications for book readers.

Spoilers for Book 5 of the series regarding a character not in the show:

It means that Elia Martell's kids would likely be considered bastards, I suppose. This explains why Aegon (the Young Griff) actually has no claim to the throne. Not that I ever thought he would be crowned. But I never could figure out what Martin was doing with reintroducing him five books in as an adult.

Does it work that way, though? Kinda shitty to become a bastard retroactively when you were born in a legitimate marriage.

Spinal
08-14-2017, 07:49 PM
Does it work that way, though? Kinda shitty to become a bastard retroactively when you were born in a legitimate marriage.

The thing is, I don't really know. And I suppose Martin could make up whatever custom he wanted for his world.

Watashi
08-15-2017, 12:07 AM
Does anyone think Cersei is lying about being pregnant?

Grouchy
08-15-2017, 12:16 AM
Does anyone think Cersei is lying about being pregnant?
I didn't, but it's a possibility.

Another Lannister child makes everything about that couple more DRAMATIC. Specially if the witch's prophecy is fulfilled with Jaime killing her to protect the realm.

Dukefrukem
08-15-2017, 12:44 AM
Does anyone think Cersei is lying about being pregnant?

Yes. It's a way that she can keep Jaime loyal to her. Jaime has basically been against every decision she's made this season and it was a matter of time before he had enough.

Ezee E
08-15-2017, 01:02 AM
Yes. It's a way that she can keep Jaime loyal to her. Jaime has basically been against every decision she's made this season and it was a matter of time before he had enough.

Same. But kind of a silly lie, like what does Cersei plan to do after 3-4 months? This must be a Qyburn idea.

Ezee E
08-15-2017, 01:06 AM
So captured wight (assuming) with the remaining seven to go to King's Landing for one final battle.

Clegane Bowl for final fan service to end the season?

DavidSeven
08-15-2017, 01:08 AM
The prophesy was that Cersei would have three children, which she's already had and lost. Of course, if she's telling the truth but is killed before giving birth, perhaps that still works.

Ashley
08-15-2017, 01:40 AM
I've been pretty critical of Emilia Clarke in the past*, but I have to say, she's done a nice job this season of showing Dany slowly and subtly falling for Jon. The council scene especially, I thought she played Dany's reaction to Jon heading North of the Wall really well. Of course, that's just going to make things more interesting when she finds out that Jon is not only her nephew (although given that she grew up expecting to marry her brother this might not bother her as much as it would Jon) but that his claim to the throne is at least as strong as hers, if not stronger.

*Though I do think she's somewhat hampered by the fact that Dany has been such a dull, one-note character for so long. Her best scenes almost always come when she's given notes to play other than "stoic and/or badass Dragon Queen".

Grouchy
08-15-2017, 01:42 AM
The prophesy was that Cersei would have three children, which she's already had and lost. Of course, if she's telling the truth but is killed before giving birth, perhaps that still works.
It also said that she'd die strangled by her "little brother".

Grouchy
08-15-2017, 01:43 AM
what does Cersei plan to do after 3-4 months?
Hahah I remember a really shitty TV show (I think it might have been Glee) where a woman pulled off that scam by putting on an artificial belly in all her scenes.

Spinal
08-15-2017, 01:59 AM
Emilia Clarke certainly does get the award for Most Improved. Her performances of late are dramatically better than the first season.

Ezee E
08-15-2017, 02:31 AM
Emilia Clarke certainly does get the award for Most Improved. Her performances of late are dramatically better than the first season.

Between her and Cersei, they are probably the most interesting characters to watch on a dramatic standpoint. Arya and Snow are the most fun.

Dukefrukem
08-15-2017, 12:55 PM
It also said that she'd die strangled by her "little brother".

Which is why I'm pissed I didn't have Arya killing her in my predictions.

number8
08-15-2017, 02:03 PM
Most prophecies we've heard on the show have been wrong. That's one thing I like about this lore. There are these people who put their absolute faith in something and get totally boned for it.

bac0n
08-15-2017, 02:56 PM
A few observations:

Team Snow needs to bring back a wight - who's to say it might not be one of them who is returned as a wight? wouldn't Jorah be a real kick in the crotch?

On Dany finding out she's related to Jon Snow. I seem to recall reading or hearing somewhere (might even have been in book one) that the Targaeryans have a history of intermarriage. In fact, I think in the original book, Dany mentions growing up assuming she would eventually marry her brother Viserys. So, she would probably not be off put by the news. Not so sure about Jon tho.

number8
08-15-2017, 03:10 PM
She's not gonna be put off by the fact that there's another Targaryen; she'll probably be happy that there's another family member after thinking that she's the last one. And yes, Targaryens are fine with incest.

The question is more about how she'll take the news that she won't be the rightful heir anymore. Westeros is very patriarchal and a grandson like Jon is prioritized more in the line of succession than a daughter like Dany. Now if Jon's cool with marrying her the whole thing is moot since she'll be queen anyway, but I think the drama will be over whether she's fine with becoming queen through marriage. As the Mother of Dragons, she's been setting herself up as a trailblazer and queen of her own making. Is she gonna be happy, after all that, for some other guy to swoop in as the rightful king and her getting to the throne by becoming a wife?

Spinal
08-15-2017, 04:03 PM
I don't think you can have your TV show make so much of the ick factor of the Lannister incest and then have your two most iconic characters end up in an incestuous romantic relationship. I don't think it's happening, even understanding the history. I think they're more likely to war against each other.

Dukefrukem
08-15-2017, 04:20 PM
Most prophecies we've heard on the show have been wrong. That's one thing I like about this lore. There are these people who put their absolute faith in something and get totally boned for it.

Well then the show is doing a lot of misdirection right now with the Hound's new friends. They seem dead set on some kind of fate/prophecy mission.

Spinal
08-15-2017, 04:25 PM
Which prophecies have been flat-out wrong, as opposed to misinterpreted?

Spinal
08-15-2017, 04:45 PM
I agree with the main point though, that the story is good at showing people who commit atrocities based on misplaced faith in something that is essentially unknowable.

number8
08-15-2017, 05:38 PM
Which prophecies have been flat-out wrong, as opposed to misinterpreted?

"Stallion Who Mounts the World" was one of the first ones. Baby ends up stillborn.

I suppose you can always say that the prophecy meant something or someone else later down the road, which is how real-life faith-based prophecies work, too, but narratively speaking, the way the prophecies are presented to the audience tend to be wrong. Obvious one: Stannis. I mean, sure, Melissandre can keep on saying "No, Azor Ahai's reincarnation is this guy! No, that guy!" until she gets it right, but then that's no longer much of a prophecy. So I think fans can argue if it's gonna be Tyrion or Jamie who will be the "little brother" that kills Cersei, but this series may not be above just revealing out of nowhere that Hot Pie is Tywin's bastard all along and have him kill her.

DavidSeven
08-15-2017, 05:58 PM
Would agree that there's been some misdirection regarding fate and prophecies in general, but Cersei's was very specific and about 95%% fulfilled thus far. On the question of how many children she'll have, that seems pretty absolute with little room for wiggle.

I think the "little brother" aspect has way more room for interpretation. The witch did not even use the words "little brother" but a Valyrian word which supposedly translates to essentially the same thing. Nevertheless, it's never explicitly said that it would be "Cersei's little brother." I think a more general "the little brother" can ultimately be interpreted many different ways. Not to mention that you have a character (Arya) who's looking to kill her and can take the face of anyone she pleases, including, presumably, Cersei's actual little brothers.

Ashley
08-15-2017, 06:12 PM
She's not gonna be put off by the fact that there's another Targaryen; she'll probably be happy that there's another family member after thinking that she's the last one. And yes, Targaryens are fine with incest.

The question is more about how she'll take the news that she won't be the rightful heir anymore. Westeros is very patriarchal and a grandson like Jon is prioritized more in the line of succession than a daughter like Dany. Now if Jon's cool with marrying her the whole thing is moot since she'll be queen anyway, but I think the drama will be over whether she's fine with becoming queen through marriage. As the Mother of Dragons, she's been setting herself up as a trailblazer and queen of her own making. Is she gonna be happy, after all that, for some other guy to swoop in as the rightful king and her getting to the throne by becoming a wife?

Well, Westeros is very patriarchal, but I don't think that's the only reason why Jon would be ahead of her in the line of succession. Even if they were both girls, the child of the Crown Prince would traditionally come before his younger sister, no (eg. Prince William vs. Prince Andrew)? Of course, as Martin himself has said, questions of "rightful" heirs tend to get murky when you're dealing with armies and this sort of Might Makes Right society. If you look at the Wars of the Roses, which he based the series on in large part, there were a lot of people who argued that they were the "rightful king" and in the end it came down to the dude who had the strength to plant his ass on the throne and stay there.

I do agree with you though that the more important and interesting question is how the news impacts the characters, especially Jon and Dany since it basically blows up the whole foundations of their characters. Jon's whole identity is based on being the bastard son of Ned Stark, while Dany's is based on being the last Targaryan and rightful Queen of Westeros. How do they respond to the news that those foundations are built on a lie?

Regarding prophesies: I thought they left the valonqar part out on the show? Am I just remembering it wrong? That being said, I'm kind of sad that the show has ruled out my personal favourite crack theory: that it's undead Tommen (I swear, if you look at the wording it's the only answer that makes sense!)

number8
08-15-2017, 06:41 PM
Well, Westeros is very patriarchal, but I don't think that's the only reason why Jon would be ahead of her in the line of succession. Even if they were both girls, the child of the Crown Prince would traditionally come before his younger sister, no (eg. Prince William vs. Prince Andrew)? Of course, as Martin himself has said, questions of "rightful" heirs tend to get murky when you're dealing with armies and this sort of Might Makes Right society. If you look at the Wars of the Roses, which he based the series on in large part, there were a lot of people who argued that they were the "rightful king" and in the end it came down to the dude who had the strength to plant his ass on the throne and stay there.

I do agree with you though that the more important and interesting question is how the news impacts the characters, especially Jon and Dany since it basically blows up the whole foundations of their characters. Jon's whole identity is based on being the bastard son of Ned Stark, while Dany's is based on being the last Targaryan and rightful Queen of Westeros. How do they respond to the news that those foundations are built on a lie?

Yeah, exactly (that's what happened with all the Baratheon kids staking their claim), but why I think it particularly matters to Dany is that her entire claim of being the rightful heir is based on correcting the throne's proper line of succession that was interrupted by Robert's Rebellion. So if she's gonna be a stickler for that bloodline malarkey, she has to acknowledge that her own standards would make Jon the rightful heir, not her. How she'll navigate that potential hypocrisy is what's going to be interesting.


Regarding prophesies: I thought they left the valonqar part out on the show? Am I just remembering it wrong?

Oh man, you're right. Cersei's death has not been prophesied on the show at all.

Grouchy
08-15-2017, 06:43 PM
I don't think you can have your TV show make so much of the ick factor of the Lannister incest and then have your two most iconic characters end up in an incestuous romantic relationship. I don't think it's happening, even understanding the history. I think they're more likely to war against each other.
The Targaryens are not only fine with incest, they actually encourage it to keep their bloodstream pure like real life clans used to do. So Daenerys finding out about Jon being his nephew would most likely make her very happy. She could even take it as a sign.

I don't think the show is as icky as you say about Cersei-Jaime. It's simply that the society they live in now considers it taboo as opposed to the realm under Targaryen rule. But Jaime is genuinely in love with his sister. And Cersei is as in love as a sociopath can be. None of their children show signs of retardation - Joffrey is just a cunt.

number8
08-15-2017, 06:46 PM
Would agree that there's been some misdirection regarding fate and prophecies in general, but Cersei's was very specific and about 95%% fulfilled thus far. On the question of how many children she'll have, that seems pretty absolute with little room for wiggle.

This is kind of what I mean, though. We don't know if that's true at all, for now. If Cersei's pregnancy is actually legit, that means the witch was full of shit. And my point was, as presented, this is a show that is comfortable going either direction.

Spinal
08-15-2017, 06:56 PM
The valonqar part has been left out of the show. I think we're all just assuming that the person who kills Cersei is so important that it wouldn't be something Benioff and Weiss would change.

Spinal
08-15-2017, 07:03 PM
Not to mention that you have a character (Arya) who's looking to kill her and can take the face of anyone she pleases, including, presumably, Cersei's actual little brothers.

If Arya can successfully impersonate either Jaime or Tyrion, that would be true mastery of her skills.

Grouchy
08-15-2017, 07:26 PM
If Arya can successfully impersonate either Jaime or Tyrion, that would be true mastery of her skills.
She impersonated Walder Frey who has a completely different physical build than her.

Spinal
08-15-2017, 07:31 PM
She impersonated Walder Frey who has a completely different physical build than her.

Oh, I'm not putting it past her. I'm just saying that would be amazing. I hope it happens.

Ezee E
08-15-2017, 11:31 PM
Were any of Melisandre's prophecies true?

Beric Dondarrion's prophecy seems to be well on its way to being true.

Spinal
08-16-2017, 06:59 PM
Were any of Melisandre's prophecies true?


She looked at Arya and saw different eyes staring back at her. She then predicted Arya would shut those eyes forever. I don't know that that's a prophecy, per se. More like fortune telling.

Dukefrukem
08-21-2017, 02:17 AM
A little bit of a deus ex machina ending for this episode.... not sure how I feel about a character we haven't seen in 5 seasons to show up randomly to save a character.

amberlita
08-21-2017, 02:21 AM
A little bit of a deus ex machina ending for this episode.... not sure how I feel about a character we haven't seen in 5 seasons to show up randomly to save a character.

Then you should have been bringing this up last season, because Uncle Benjen showed up out of nowhere to save Bran.

Watashi
08-21-2017, 02:46 AM
Games of Thrones has been filled with deus ex machinas. You have to kinda roll with it.

At least we now know for sure there will be a Clegane Bowl next season.

Henry Gale
08-21-2017, 02:51 AM
Yeah, as much as I hate to say this series now does seemingly now require more suspension of disbelief than ever before (in terms of its own world rules and logic), there were so many wild things that happened in this episode that the sheer stellar scale of the events unfolding as marvelously as they clouded any of that kind of judgement with awe and excitement in the best way for me.

And episode like this is essentially the sort of thing I dreamed about the show becoming in its earliest days, but somewhat doubted it would able to.

So happy to have the hopeful side materialize.

Wryan
08-21-2017, 03:04 AM
Goddamit this Arya/Sansa shit better be like a triple-blind double-bluff or something, cause I wanna slap both of them.

Peng
08-21-2017, 03:32 AM
Never have I feel this conflicted in the show for the disparity between BIG EXCITING DEVELOPMENT and the rather clumsy and lackluster execution; always when the show has big, momentous events to depict it knocks them out of the park. This season may prove to be too short for the story scale and character bits they want to portray.

DavidSeven
08-21-2017, 03:47 AM
I'm sure they intended to write the battle in a way that made sense, but boy, once the ice froze over again, I understood very little of the physical logic of what was happening.

They've done the big setpiece battles really well over the last few seasons, but this one felt kind of clumsy and it made it difficult to suspend disbelief for any length. The multiple just-in-time saviors did not help.

On he positive, the setup with the polar bear and payoff of the final shot was really well-done. Made the episode for me.

Grouchy
08-21-2017, 07:16 AM
Where the hell did the White Walkers get the chains?

DavidSeven
08-21-2017, 07:46 AM
Why didn't the Night King just throw a spear at every man sitting on that island for 24 hours straight?

Wryan
08-21-2017, 10:54 AM
Why didn't the vastly outnumbered heroes just get smooshed to death by wights cramming in on them from all sides all at once?

Wryan
08-21-2017, 10:55 AM
Why didn't the Night King just throw the second spear at the sitting-duck dragon instantly while everyone was gawking at the falling/fallen dragon?

Dukefrukem
08-21-2017, 11:46 AM
Why didn't Jon just ask Danny to drive one of her dragons high above the Night King's army? Seemed like it was a 10 minute flight to get over the wall.

number8
08-21-2017, 12:57 PM
Yeah, I have to concur here. This episode broke the record for the most times I yelled "Why the fuck---?" at Game of Thrones.

number8
08-21-2017, 01:01 PM
There was a pretty great analogy on Reddit a couple of weeks ago that this show is like a tabletop RPG session where you start out enjoying all the details and worldbuilding and exploring, but now it's getting late and you're out of snacks and just wanna go home but you gotta finish this campaign so everyone's just rushing through their rolls and excusing a lot of shortcuts just to get it done.

Dukefrukem
08-21-2017, 01:49 PM
No wonder there are so many continuity issues, this episode was directed by Alan Taylor.

Peng
08-21-2017, 02:24 PM
...who directed "Baelor" (and the also excellent season 1 finale), and many of season 2 episodes? Unless you're saying he's been gone so long that his direction doesn't jibe with how it's been now.

Dukefrukem
08-21-2017, 02:30 PM
...who directed "Baelor" (and the also excellent season 1 finale), and many of season 2 episodes? Unless you're saying he's been gone so long that his direction doesn't jibe with how it's been now.

Those seasons had a very precise outline.

This season is a departure from that and it's a result of what happens when you need to tie things together so quickly.

number8
08-21-2017, 02:53 PM
Eh, don't overestimate a director's input on a tv show.

Peng
08-21-2017, 03:08 PM
Yeahhhhh, my problems (and many others' stated here as well) aren't much about the action or spectacle, more about plot points and larger logics stuff, which are on D&D, who also writes this episode.

Irish
08-21-2017, 03:25 PM
The real question isn't why didn't Dany just fly up there before, or where the hell Benjen came from, or how the walkers got those chains, or why the Night King had to touch the dragon to raise it (he didn't have to do that before).

The real question is who designs Dany's outfits? How many does she have? Because she was pretty goddamn at the ready with that super-chic winter coat (with matching gloves!).

Wryan
08-21-2017, 04:44 PM
I can't wait to see the knockoff attempts at that bitchin coat. They are gonna be Cake Wrecks hilarious.

Dukefrukem
08-21-2017, 05:48 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yx9dRL1BCCQ

Ezee E
08-21-2017, 07:32 PM
-While I enjoyed the battle, this might be the first one that wasn't completely jawdropping to me, until the javelin throw.

-Question all you want, I almost feel like this is exactly what the Night King was waiting for. They must've known of the existence of the dragons. They weren't going after the Seven. They wanted the damn dragon. And now they have exactly what they need to take out the wall. By the way, what color flame will the Ice Dragon be?

-I'll forever nerd out anytime a sword goes on fire.

-Chains? I suppose they can be collected from over the many years of taking down villages. Would've been cooler if they used the wights in some form.

-Arya sure went full-psycho. A little over the top on her end.

-Neat to see Littlefinger's plan all move along without any type of exposition on his end.

-Benjen, Bran, Arya, and Sansa are forever messed up.

-Kind of neat not knowing any tactic that King's Landing has lined up.

-Another year of predicting Cleganebowl and the wall coming down to end the season.