Rogue One: A Star Wars Story (Gareth Edwards)

[Dukefrukem]

http://img.lum.dolimg.com/v1/images/rogueone_onesheeta_1000_309ed8 f6.jpeg?region=0%2C0%2C1000%2C 1481&width=480

[Fezzik]

Don't want to post anything remotely spoilerish, but i think this is the best Star Wars film since 'Empire' and its not remotely close.

The third act is fucking aces.

[Henry Gale]

Kinda miraculous just how little the first act or so did for me and then how much I found myself loving it by the end.

Edwards' best movie. Where it falls under the Star Wars umbrella, I will decide later on..

The best prequel! (And I did really like III at the time.)

[Mal]

This movie made me depressed. Its great. But :(

more thoughts:
The editing in the beginning is a bit of a problem. It could have taken a minute or two to breathe with these characters as we get to know them a little better- understand more of their purpose in this weird take on the universe. I'm ok with not having flashbacks since this is not an origin story, but even if this was 2 1/2 hrs, it still would have been decent. Once the film gets beyond Galen's death, it hits the right groove.

The action and visual scale are the only aspects that exceed The Force Awakens for me. It's a fun, risk-taking and a little messy - probably better than ROTJ.

[[ETM]]

Wow, really? This is not even better than Godzilla. :(

[Henry Gale]

;564524']Wow, really? This is not even better than Godzilla. :(

I guess I should clarify I really don't like Godzilla. Anything without Binoche, Cranston, or Watanabe is more or less dead weight for me. The stunning visual here and there is obviously great too, but.. not a fan.

I will say for the first half of Rogue One, I kept thinking about Edwards, "Man, has there ever been a director better at making incredible establishing shots, who then opts for the most boringly angled shot-reverse-shot conversations to cut to after them?" Like, some truly jaw-dropping stuff showing where you are, and then you're stuck with these drab, gray, medium close-ups carrying mostly expositional dialogue. That first scene with Luna's character looked atrocious to me.

Luckily, it turned things around from being able to bore me into such thoughts early on to genuinely thrilling me later. All weak cliches (and decidedly spoiler-y stuff) aside.

[[ETM]]

I guess I should clarify I really don't like Godzilla. Anything without Binoche, Cranston, or Watanabe is more or less dead weight for me. The stunning visual here and there is obviously great too, but.. not a fan.

I thought he did infinitely better with the large scale battle and monster action scenes. It's the same with Rogue One, except I thought the monster fights were much better than anything here. Glitzy and loaded with memberberries, sure, but kind of dumb once you think of it even for one second. I don't want to talk spoilers yet, but the... logistics of everything in the final third are completely off and strained.

[Watashi]

I... did not like this. The whole film looks fucking spectacular, but the story is a mess. The third act is indeed a lot of fun, but the tension feels so manufactured. Outside of Donnie Yen's blind assassin, I didn't have any weight into these characters and didn't really care about their fate.

Also, I had no idea what Forest Whitaker was trying to do with his performance, but it was awful. Mendelsohn was wasted. He was nowhere near menacing enough.

[Scar]

Donnie Yen was awesome.
Loved the big droid.
Giggled and cheered for Vader.

With that said, I'm not sure if I liked it or not. I'll need to see it again, preferably after a proper nights sleep.

[Dukefrukem]

Not using spoiler tags here.

[ETM]'s post yesterday I thought was really off the mark. This was wonderful in almost all aspects. It's better than Godzilla by a large margin. It's better than Force Awakens. It's better than all of the prequels. It's on Jedi level for me. (more on that later) It's very obvious this is a darker take on Star Wars. There's no witty banter. There's no back and forth on ANY level. But maybe that is apt for the time period of Star Wars? The Empire is growing and what's left of the Republic is desperately trying to survive. Trying to piece together information of impending doom. Then the Rebels actually witness a test fire of the weapon and all hope is lost. Or is it? The second half of movie revolving around hope is perfect for this plot. We see it from the speech Jyn Erso gives at the Rebel base. And we get it as the final word spoken in the movie from Princess Leia. Love it.

The fan service stuff isn't shoehorned. The view from inside the Rebel base on Yavin IV. The guy in the tower. The Death Star plans from the 1979. The Death Star technicians. Bail Organa. Mon Mothma, 3PO and R2D2. Tarkin. "You may fire when ready" (BTW, I made that the poll option before I knew that line would be in the movie)

This film has three villains. Vadar. Tarkin. and Orson Krennic perfectly paced, all used where they were needed. It really gives the film a sense of dread. In fact, Vadar is probably in his most menacing role in the entire series. Super threatening. And boy that finale. Wow.

Why is this on par with Jedi? Oh man. I loved the fucking ensemble "journey" aspect. It reeked of Jedi. One group is needed to infiltrate the Scarif to get the plans. (Btw, LOL @ storing the plans on hard media that needs to be accessed by a tape deck.. I mean, you have ships faster than light speed and your'e using HDDs?? or whatever?) You have one group holding down the ship in order to broadcast the plans. And then you have a super satisfying space battle / dog fights above the shield. (I know I know another "we gotta take down the shield generator" fight... but it's fine). The RotJedi space battle is some of my favorite Star Wars and I you can tell Edwards wanted to replicate a little bit of that.

Where it's off the mark: The editing and score. The score is totally distracting. Aside from a few "Empire" themes it was very obvious this was not John Williams. And the editing. Jeesh. Too many cuts. Too quickly going back and forth between the groups tasks. Let the scenes play out a bit more.

I want Edwards to do another Star Wars. He gets it. He understands scale better than any director I've seen. The attention to detail in the cities and on the beach and around every stage was wonderful.

Side Notes:

1. The CGI Tarkin and Leia were a little bit distracting and unfinished. Not sure what was going on there. But for some reason CGI Schwarzenegger and CGI Michael Douglass looked so much better.

2. The ending does not perfectly align with the beginning of A New Hope.
"Darth Vader. Only you could be so bold. The Imperial Senate will not sit still for this. When they hear you've attacked a diplomatic..."
Darth Vader: Don't act so surprised, Your Highness. You weren't on any mercy mission this time. Several transmissions were beamed to this ship by rebel spies. I want to know what happened to the plans they sent you."
"I don't know what you're talking about. I am a member of the Imperial Senate on a diplomatic mission to Alderaan"
Darth Vader: "Oh really bitch? I didn't just board your rebel ship and see you take off? I believe it was your people that attacked our space station. Were you going to Alderaan afterwards? TAKE HER AWAY"

3. Needed more Donnie Yen

4. Needed much more Forest Whitaker.

5.

1. Jedi
2. Empire & Rogue
4. Hope
5. Force Awakens
6. Phantom
7. Revenge
8. Clones

[Mal]

(Btw, LOL @ storing the plans on hard media that needs to be accessed by a tape deck.. I mean, you have ships faster than light speed and your'e using HDDs?? or whatever?)

lmao I work in IT sales... there's a saying that goes in the backup industry... "tape will never die" - and I was seriously amazed at the tape library size :D

[Dukefrukem]

lmao I work in IT sales... there's a saying that goes in the backup industry... "tape will never die" - and I was seriously amazed at the tape library size :D

This is actually quite true. The reason for this is because the cost to store something on tape could be 1000x cheaper than to store something on a more modern connected cloud hardware (electricity, space in a data center, cooling etc)- Why would the Empire store something on tape? To save cost? Probably not when you're building a space station that can blow up a planet.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wn4P1y7orU

I convinced myself it's more likely it's stored on a system that is not connected to the central computer- thus making it vulnerable to hacking. Still, that doesn't explain the joystick prize picker mechanic to retrieve the tape/HDD.

[Mal]

I convinced myself it's more likely it's stored on a system that is not connected to the central computer- thus making it vulnerable to hacking. Still, that doesn't explain the joystick prize picker mechanic to retrieve the tape/HDD.

well in a galaxy far, far away... they keep it old school.

[Dukefrukem]

Odds we see a CGIed younger Han Solo / Luke / Leia? (in the same vein as Terminator / Tron / Ant-Man)

100%




"This is a rebellion isn't it? I rebel."

I actually rolled my eyes at that one.

I hope it's just poorly cut together.

Happy this line was not in the film.


Fuck it, let's do this. What should we bet on that Luke is not related to Rey at all?

$100

[Dukefrukem]

Couple of other scenes that were in the trailer and NOT in the movie. Intentional?


http://s3.birthmoviesdeath.com/images/made/Finale2_1200_501_81_s.jpg
http://s3.birthmoviesdeath.com/images/made/Finale5_1200_498_81_s.jpg

[Wryan]

I had a good bit of fun. The relationship between Rey and Finn was better than just about anything in this movie character-wise, but it has its strengths. Was rather shocked with Tarkin's wide use. Thought his effects were successful enough, especially compared to good-god-what's-happening-with-Leia. The score was not a raging triumph. It felt like a middle school band trying to ape Star Wars after watching it once or twice. "This is what it sounds like, right? Like Baaaaaa-DUM-bum-boop-beeeeeee-zzzzzzzz-chunk...yeah?"

Mostly I'm looking forward to more universe storytelling. I'm sure there's just incredible opportunities for some good tales waiting to be told and realized. Hopefully they continue to get a little more daring with each entry.

EDIT: The guy doing Tarkin did a creditable job.

[TGM]

I know this isn't going to be a popular opinion at all, but I thought this movie sucked. Spoilers variously abound, though I'll try to tag most of them.

Structurally, this movie is clumsy as hell, particularly at the beginning as it's trying to introduce us to the characters we'll be following, and just sorta bombards us in the clunkiest way imaginable with a shitload of information and poorly developed characters all at once, never really taking the time to really give us a feel for either them or their situation. Like, the first half of this movie was just jarringly executed, and the only other movie this year to do an even worse job of executing this aspect was Suicide Squad. And again near the end, when it just becomes a full blown war film, outside of a handful of neat split-second shots, the action just becomes a mind numbing chore to sit through, and was quite frankly generic and boring as hell.

Speaking on characters though, this movie suddenly gives me a huge appreciate for Abrams' character work in The Force Awakens, because my god, there are no characters in this movie. Just a collection of one-note cardboard cutouts. After Force Awakens, I felt like I knew the new cast inside and out. I know who Rey is, despite all the mystery surrounding her. I know Finn on a deeper level, and have a great grasp on his personality and who he is as a person, and the struggles that brought him there. I can understand Kylo Ren, even if I can't directly relate to his dilemma. Here though? I don't know shit about any of these characters. Hell, I don't even remember any of their fucking names! And this is a fucking Star Wars movie, how do you make characters so unremarkable that even their names don't stick with you?

There comes a point near the end when Robot turns to Main Female Protagonist and tells her that her actions never cease to amaze him. And all I could think was, what do you mean? Why wouldn't you be surprised by what she does? After all, she only ever acts however the plot explicitly requires her to at any given moment, and in the most lifeless and blandest manner at that. She doesn't have a fucking character in order to be able to get a grasp on her personality and what she may or may not do at any given moment. She has a backstory, sure, but none of that clumsy exposition matters in the least if the current version of this character we're following in the movie fails to ever actually truly come to life on the screen.

It's like the movie is populated entirely by Aaron Taylor-Johnson's character from Godzilla, who was bland and lifeless and nobody really liked. Now take him, and expand that to our whole cast, and that's what we have left. But hell, at least that movie had Bryan Cranston, as brief as his time may have been. Rogue One really coulda done with a whole lot more Bryan Cranstons running around.

So needless to say, once they all begin to die one by one at the end, I didn't feel a god damn thing for any of it. In fact, it reached a point where, by the time Big Gun Shooter Guy kicked the bucket, I was literally rolling my eyes. This movie was so desperate to tug at our heart strings, yet forgot to give us a god damn reason along the way to give a fucking shit about any of it, so really, the only thing I was even feeling this entire time was boredom and annoyance.

But even beyond just the characters, I just overall found myself struggling to find any reason to give a damn about this movie. Like, why did we need this? It feels like filler. Like, why did this story have to be presented in this manner? A comic or a novel or a video game would have more than sufficed. A movie, though? This just feels needlessly excessive, and doesn't give me any greater appreciation for the Star Wars lore or canon than I already had going into it. It feels pointless, basically, and it didn't have to, if, as I said, they actually included a reason for us to give a damn about a single thing happening.

Also, and there may be a legit answer to this, but did anyone else find it curious how the Death Star's weakness was explicitly built into it, yet the Starkiller Base in Episode VII was able to be taken out in a fairly similar manner and pretty much just as easily as well? Soooo... did the engineers who built Starkiller Base just especially suck at their jobs, seeing as how it now turns out the Death Star wasn't supposed to be nearly so vulnerable? Mind you, Episode VII just came out last year, and yet they decided to bring this revelation regarding the Death Star's weakness to light for us only a year later.

Also, I guess Interstellar is the next Nolan flick we're gonna borrow visually from in Hollywood? Cause the slow-motion exploding planet scene was so ripped straight out of the mountain-sized waves scene in Interstellar. The only difference being, why the hell was the planet exploding in slow-motion anyways? Hell, when they're back in space aboard the ship and Main Protagonist Female is questioned by Main Protagonist Male why she didn't take her father's message with her, she says it's because "everything happened so fast", and I was like, uh, no, it literally didn't though. That was just a bizarre choice to go with, especially since they repeat it later in the movie. I mean, planet-sized explosions have always been pretty instantaneous in this universe up to this point, so this especially stood out as bizarre and out of place here.

I will say this, at least it wasn't as obnoxious as The Force Awakens as it regards the callbacks, but the few that were still in there were still very groan-inducing.

If I were to point out things that I liked, I guess the direct lead-in to Episode IV was kinda cool, and the last shot of Main Protagonist Female and Main Protagonist Male on the beach being engulfed by the slow-motion explosion was pretty. But honestly, I got nothing else out of this movie. It feels like an empty void of a movie, something desperate to be a moving spectacle of a motion picture, yet it's completely devoid of any of the proper ingredients that actually make such a movie genuinely stirring.

But I dunno, I'm not even sure where the blame lies for why this movie didn't work at all, whether it was because it was just poorly written, or if perhaps a better director could have executed this whole thing better, or if the re-shoots had anything to do with it. But whatever it was, as is often the case when we hear news of studios interfering to re-shoot a lot of the film, there was a pretty big mess left behind, and it absolutely showed. Flat out, this is the worst Star Wars movie I've seen so far.

[Peng]

The longer I let this film sink in, the more I like it, huge flaws and all. If this has a more stable first half, and has managed the same character build-up and identification of The Force Awakens, we might be looking at one of the best Star Wars entries ever.

Gareth Edwards' sense of scale and spectacle from a ground-level human of point of view are still as awe-inspiring as in Godzilla, but since this has no giant monster(s) as the increasing focus, his lack of skill in characters are more apparent. The first half is simultaneously rushed in events and sluggish in feel, as the attempts to pile on a lot of exposition, while hurriedly introduce so many characters without sufficiently establishing their humanity or inner life, fail to make all this truly involving.

Once the group becomes part of a larger whole (both in term of plot mechanics and among battle cinematography) though, whoo boy. Again, if this has managed the same character identification as in TFA (which makes me still prefer that one), I would have been a mess during certain sections in the final battle. The combination of breathless ferocity of the fighting, its sense of immense scale both on ground level and high above, and a growing feeling of heart-in-throat doom is really quite something. Hyperbole incoming, but it might be one of the best endings ever to a Star Wars film, on par and possibly even exceeding The Empire Strikes Back and Revenge of the Sith.

And maybe even the most touching as well. I might give the film a look again because the ending is the kind that reverberates positively back on the whole film, and might make me even more receptive on rewatch. The narrative initially taking the characters too rushed and only through their tasks turns me off, but in the second half I've come to appreciate how dogged and determined they are, realizing but wholeheartedly embracing being small cogs for the next step in the grand scheme of things. It's one of the main touches that make the climatic battle so satisfying, and that carries into the epilogue as well. One battle may be done, but the fight is still not over yet, and another scramble for the next blow against the enemy is just around the corner. That desperate but determined gesture of trying the damnedest to pass on the hope to fight, in the face of formidable evil, really moves me. 7.5/10

[Peng]

Ranking:

1. The Empire Stirkes Back
2. A New Hope
3. Revenge of the Sith
4. The Force Awakens
5. Rogue One
6. Return of the Jedi
7. The Phantom Menace
8. Attack of the Clones

[Dukefrukem]

I know this isn't going to be a popular opinion at all, but I thought this movie sucked. Spoilers variously abound, though I'll try to tag most of them.

Structurally, this movie is clumsy as hell, particularly at the beginning as it's trying to introduce us to the characters we'll be following, and just sorta bombards us in the clunkiest way imaginable with a shitload of information and poorly developed characters all at once, never really taking the time to really give us a feel for either them or their situation. Like, the first half of this movie was just jarringly executed, and the only other movie this year to do an even worse job of executing this aspect was Suicide Squad. And again near the end, when it just becomes a full blown war film, outside of a handful of neat split-second shots, the action just becomes a mind numbing chore to sit through, and was quite frankly generic and boring as hell.

Speaking on characters though, this movie suddenly gives me a huge appreciate for Abrams' character work in The Force Awakens, because my god, there are no characters in this movie. Just a collection of one-note cardboard cutouts. After Force Awakens, I felt like I knew the new cast inside and out. I know who Rey is, despite all the mystery surrounding her. I know Finn on a deeper level, and have a great grasp on his personality and who he is as a person, and the struggles that brought him there. I can understand Kylo Ren, even if I can't directly relate to his dilemma. Here though? I don't know shit about any of these characters. Hell, I don't even remember any of their fucking names! And this is a fucking Star Wars movie, how do you make characters so unremarkable that even their names don't stick with you?

There comes a point near the end when Robot turns to Main Female Protagonist and tells her that her actions never cease to amaze him. And all I could think was, what do you mean? Why wouldn't you be surprised by what she does? After all, she only ever acts however the plot explicitly requires her to at any given moment, and in the most lifeless and blandest manner at that. She doesn't have a fucking character in order to be able to get a grasp on her personality and what she may or may not do at any given moment. She has a backstory, sure, but none of that clumsy exposition matters in the least if the current version of this character we're following in the movie fails to ever actually truly come to life on the screen.

It's like the movie is populated entirely by Aaron Taylor-Johnson's character from Godzilla, who was bland and lifeless and nobody really liked. Now take him, and expand that to our whole cast, and that's what we have left. But hell, at least that movie had Bryan Cranston, as brief as his time may have been. Rogue One really coulda done with a whole lot more Bryan Cranstons running around.

So needless to say, once they all begin to die one by one at the end, I didn't feel a god damn thing for any of it. In fact, it reached a point where, by the time Big Gun Shooter Guy kicked the bucket, I was literally rolling my eyes. This movie was so desperate to tug at our heart strings, yet forgot to give us a god damn reason along the way to give a fucking shit about any of it, so really, the only thing I was even feeling this entire time was boredom and annoyance.

But even beyond just the characters, I just overall found myself struggling to find any reason to give a damn about this movie. Like, why did we need this? It feels like filler. Like, why did this story have to be presented in this manner? A comic or a novel or a video game would have more than sufficed. A movie, though? This just feels needlessly excessive, and doesn't give me any greater appreciation for the Star Wars lore or canon than I already had going into it. It feels pointless, basically, and it didn't have to, if, as I said, they actually included a reason for us to give a damn about a single thing happening.

I dont disagree that there were character development issues with the movie- but it's a prequel to a movie that makes it pretty obvious they were all going to die anyway. I think that takes away from the impact of impending doom. In other words, the depth of the characters isn't necessarily critical to the plot as say, a three movie trilogy. In fact, I'd argue that characters all played off a dark and dismal time period. Donnie Yen is the shinning example of positivity where others act as if the glass is half empty.

And aside from Rey and Fin in the Force Awakens, you were THAT impressed with what Abrams did with say... Poe? Or Kylo Ren? or Maz Kanata? They were all terrible;y developed.



Also, and there may be a legit answer to this, but did anyone else find it curious how the Death Star's weakness was explicitly built into it, yet the Starkiller Base in Episode VII was able to be taken out in a fairly similar manner and pretty much just as easily as well? Soooo... did the engineers who built Starkiller Base just especially suck at their jobs, seeing as how it now turns out the Death Star wasn't supposed to be nearly so vulnerable? Mind you, Episode VII just came out last year, and yet they decided to bring this revelation regarding the Death Star's weakness to light for us only a year later.

This is just adding to how poorly thought out of a movie Force Awakens is. Everything surrounding Starkiller Base is dumb and unnecessary to the plot.



Also, I guess Interstellar is the next Nolan flick we're gonna borrow visually from in Hollywood? Cause the slow-motion exploding planet scene was so ripped straight out of the mountain-sized waves scene in Interstellar. The only difference being, why the hell was the planet exploding in slow-motion anyways? Hell, when they're back in space aboard the ship and Main Protagonist Female is questioned by Main Protagonist Male why she didn't take her father's message with her, she says it's because "everything happened so fast", and I was like, uh, no, it literally didn't though. That was just a bizarre choice to go with, especially since they repeat it later in the movie. I mean, planet-sized explosions have always been pretty instantaneous in this universe up to this point, so this especially stood out as bizarre and out of place here.

Pretty sure that was just the wave approaching from miles and miles away. Same deal with the mushroom cloud at the very end which you liked.



I will say this, at least it wasn't as obnoxious as The Force Awakens as it regards the callbacks, but the few that were still in there were still very groan-inducing.


Which ones specifically? I thought they were all very tame with the exception of maybe R2 and 3PO which i told myself were only in the movie so they could continue to say they are the only characters who appear in every Star Wars movie.

[TGM]

I dont disagree that there were character development issues with the movie- but it's a prequel to a movie that makes it pretty obvious they were all going to die anyway. I think that takes away from the impact of impending doom. In other words, the depth of the characters isn't necessarily critical to the plot as say, a three movie trilogy. In fact, I'd argue that characters all played off a dark and dismal time period. Donnie Yen is the shinning example of positivity where others act as if the glass is half empty.

It's almost fitting that Donnie Yen's character (note how we keep referring to him by the actor's name and not the character's name) repeats the same thing over and over again, because that's pretty much all any of these characters are. They're all one-note tropes, with not a lick of depth to them. So, even going in knowing they're all gonna die, I still need a reason to actually care about those pivotal moments once they occur in the movie. Otherwise, what's the point? To show their united sacrifice? But what does that sacrifice mean if I don't actually feel anything about it?

I get that the movie was going for a darker and more dour tone, but you can still do that while presenting genuinely compelling characters that I grow to care about, and this movie completely failed in that regard. You say that the depth of characters isn't as pivotal to the plot, except that the plot itself is pretty paper thin, and presenting us with a ensemble of characters who we could actually latch onto would not only make that fact more forgivable, but make us actually care about their paper thin mission of a plot. Instead, the lack of character depth makes the paper thin plot all the more obvious, and makes the whole ordeal feel all the more pointless of a movie.


And aside from Rey and Fin in the Force Awakens, you were THAT impressed with what Abrams did with say... Poe? Or Kylo Ren? or Maz Kanata? They were all terrible;y developed.

The thing about Joe is that, while he doesn't have a lot of screen time, he still left a lasting and memorable impression regardless, and that really comes down to the charm and charisma of the way his character was played, not too dissimilar from how Harrison Ford originally portrayed Han Solo. And as for Kylo Ren, sure, there's things about his character that I think are a bit questionable, particularly his motivations, which don't make a whole lotta sense. However, his unique stance in this universe makes him particularly interesting, and an example of a character who I'm very interested in learning more about. WHY did he become this way, and what direction will his character arc take? His misguidance is genuinely intriguing, and it leaves me with plenty to think about after the movie's over.

I'll give you Maz Katana, sure. She was meh, but she also wasn't exactly part of the main cast, either. The whole main roster delivered in that movie, where as that very much wasn't the case at all in Rogue One. But point being, at the time, aside from Rey and Finn, I wouldn't say I was particularly impressed with Abrams' work, no. However, looking at Rogue One as a comparison, then yeah, it just makes me appreciate his work on that movie all the more. As I said, it's been a year since I've seen The Force Awakens, and I can still fondly recall Rey, Finn, Poe, Kylo Ren, etc. Yet, not even 24 hours since watching Rogue One, I sincerely can't even remember a single character's name.


Pretty sure that was just the wave approaching from miles and miles away. Same deal with the mushroom cloud at the very end which you liked.

Well no, even when they were flying away and it was directly over them, it was still moving in slow motion. And as to that last shot, I just thought the shot itself was a particularly beautiful shot. The effect in question was still just as stupid in that scene, though.



Which ones specifically? I thought they were all very tame with the exception of maybe R2 and 3PO which i told myself were only in the movie so they could continue to say they are the only characters who appear in every Star Wars movie.

Some of them were nods in dialogue, which I admittedly can't even recall at the moment, but stood out at the time. But otherwise, the two from the cantina on Tatooine randomly running into our gang stands out to me, which, in hindsight, doesn't make too much sense for them to be there, seeing as they weren't on Tatooine in that scene, and later on that same day, that planet got destroyed, while meanwhile, in A New Hope, what, a day later? They're in the cantina there. I guess they also just happened to hop off that planet just in time, too. :rolleyes:

[TGM]

Basically, The Force Awakens was a meh rehash that was saved by its great characters, who helped you overlook many of its flaws (or at least learn to live with them). Rogue One, however, has no great characters, and so its abundance of glaring flaws stand out all the more, and fail to save it from being a bad movie all around. If this movie wasn't called Star Wars, would we even be talking about it? Or would it just go forgotten as just another generic action blockbuster on top of the plethora that are already out there.

[[ETM]]

Basically, The Force Awakens was a meh rehash that was saved by its great characters, who helped you overlook many of its flaws (or at least learn to live with them). Rogue One, however, has no great characters, and so its abundance of glaring flaws stand out all the more, and fail to save it from being a bad movie all around. If this movie wasn't called Star Wars, would we even be talking about it? Or would it just go forgotten as just another generic action blockbuster on top of the plethora that are already out there.

This is essentially my entire problem with it: once I started noticing the flaws, the lack of attachment to anything that was going on caused me to sit there and scrutinize every aspect of the film far more than anyone should on a first viewing. A friend who was next to me (and who always favored the Dark Side in anything SW) kept raising his hands in disbelief every time Stormtroopers missed everyone and/or ran blindly out of a corner or into the open only to be promptly killed. Even the hyped "Death troopers". When the annoyance started, it just snowballed from there. I mean, by the time hope was mentioned in some context, we all started guessing out loud in unison before someone said it on screen, and the movie's final line was met with groans.

[Neclord]

I feel like Edwards has a really good hold on how a big scale effects film should look and feel in a way that most of his contemporaries don't, he just doesn't have the scripts, or doesn't know how to work with them. Maybe it was muddled by the reshoots but none of the protags carry the plot despite their occasional charm and teases of dimensionality. I almost prefer Godzilla (I mean I definitely do cuz i luv it) because it barely has a story or characters to begin with. Also uncanny valley Peter Cushing is weird.

[Dukefrukem]

It's almost fitting that Donnie Yen's character (note how we keep referring to him by the actor's name and not the character's name) repeats the same thing over and over again, because that's pretty much all any of these characters are. They're all one-note tropes, with not a lick of depth to them. So, even going in knowing they're all gonna die, I still need a reason to actually care about those pivotal moments once they occur in the movie. Otherwise, what's the point? To show their united sacrifice? But what does that sacrifice mean if I don't actually feel anything about it?

What tropes?




The thing about Joe is that, while he doesn't have a lot of screen time, he still left a lasting and memorable impression regardless, and that really comes down to the charm and charisma of the way his character was played, not too dissimilar from how Harrison Ford originally portrayed Han Solo. And as for Kylo Ren, sure, there's things about his character that I think are a bit questionable, particularly his motivations, which don't make a whole lotta sense. However, his unique stance in this universe makes him particularly interesting, and an example of a character who I'm very interested in learning more about. WHY did he become this way, and what direction will his character arc take? His misguidance is genuinely intriguing, and it leaves me with plenty to think about after the movie's over.

Stick anyone in Poe's character and the movie is exactly same. We didn't care about him. How about Gwendoline Christie? What a waste of a casting.




Well no, even when they were flying away and it was directly over them, it was still moving in slow motion. And as to that last shot, I just thought the shot itself was a particularly beautiful shot. The effect in question was still just as stupid in that scene, though.


Not really.
http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s36/Dukefrukem/rogue_zpsn4kvyimk.gif




Some of them were nods in dialogue, which I admittedly can't even recall at the moment, but stood out at the time. But otherwise, the two from the cantina on Tatooine randomly running into our gang stands out to me, which, in hindsight, doesn't make too much sense for them to be there, seeing as they weren't on Tatooine in that scene, and later on that same day, that planet got destroyed, while meanwhile, in A New Hope, what, a day later? They're in the cantina there. I guess they also just happened to hop off that planet just in time, too. :rolleyes:

Ha. I forgot about them. Super subtle though.

[Dukefrukem]

;564604']This is essentially my entire problem with it: once I started noticing the flaws, the lack of attachment to anything that was going on caused me to sit there and scrutinize every aspect of the film far more than anyone should on a first viewing. A friend who was next to me (and who always favored the Dark Side in anything SW) kept raising his hands in disbelief every time Stormtroopers missed everyone and/or ran blindly out of a corner or into the open only to be promptly killed. Even the hyped "Death troopers". When the annoyance started, it just snowballed from there. I mean, by the time hope was mentioned in some context, we all started guessing out loud in unison before someone said it on screen, and the movie's final line was met with groans.

You guys were mad about storm troopers missing their shots? Was this your first Star Wars movie? Or is this just the biggest nit pick ever?

[[ETM]]

You guys were mad about storm troopers missing their shots? Was this your first Star Wars movie? Or is this just the biggest nit pick ever?
But isn't this supposed to be a new thing? Darker and more actiony? I'm not mentioning it as a nitpick, just, as I said, as an example of stuff that starts to bother you when there's nothing to grab you and shift your focus.

[Dukefrukem]

The clones have always been clumsy. I don't know why you would expect any different in this movie.

[TGM]

What tropes?

Maybe I'm using the wrong word or misusing the word, but basically, they all had their one cliche characteristic, and that was it. The all serious all the time gunner, the grumpy male protagonist, the quirky technician, the peaceful blind man who can take everyone out despite his limitations, etc. And that was all there was to each character, it really didn't go anything beyond just their one specific characteristic of choice. They didn't feel like three-dimension people, they felt like lifeless chess pieces who each had their specific role to play.


Stick anyone in Poe's character and the movie is exactly same. We didn't care about him. How about Gwendoline Christie? What a waste of a casting.

I'm not even gonna disagree with you here. I'm not going to try and present an argument that Poe was a super deep and well written character. That said, Oscar Isaac took a character who didn't really have a whole lot going on with him on the page and did a hell of a lot with him purely on a performance level, hence them re-writing his role late in the game to bring him back near the end. And he's become somewhat of a fan favorite, so I'll be interested to see how they do flesh out his character in future movies.

And yes, Gwendoline Christie was wasted. Hell, I'm not even sure if she's supposed to be confirmed dead or not, to see if she'll also have a chance to return and redeem herself later on. But as it stands now, I agree with you here.

My main point was in regards to our main cast we follow, though, Rey, Finn, and Kylo Ren, who all were extremely well handled, and felt like fully fleshed out three dimension characters who we could really connect to. And that's precisely what Rogue One was missing. Even if only the main two protagonists filled this role, that could've been enough to suffice, but we didn't even get that much.


Not really.
http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s36/Dukefrukem/rogue_zpsn4kvyimk.gif

I dunno, I see your gif there (though it's loading a bit choppy for me atm), but yet I still recall it still looking like it was moving in slow-mo during the actual movie. *shrug*

[Dead & Messed Up]

I mean, if we want to unpack the character issues with The Force Awakens, I could spend all day arguing with TGM about the foundation-free empty-headed "charm" of Finn and Rey, who succeed at all because Daisy Ridley and John Boyega are straight-up charming as fuck.

But, with that bit of gentle trolling out of the way, let's get to this movie, which absolutely has problems establishing and developing its characters, but makes them function just enough and, like TFA, casts them with immediately likable actors, so that when bad things happen, I gave a bit of a shit. K2 and Chinwe are the obvious highlights.

The flick, like all of Edwards' work, demonstrates an incredible sense of scale and tactility. I loved that the space battle is resolved by treating the spaceships as objects instead of laser-shooters. One spaceship pushes another one, which collides into another, which collapses onto the shield. This might seem meaningless or superficial, but it's a reminder that Edwards sees effects more like characters than razzle-dazzle, and that's so so so so goddamn important in an age where spectacle is everywhere and increasingly meaningless.*

Like most of y'all, the flick felt like it was treading water to start, but I was engaged after the Jedha battle with the rag-tag team assembled, and I was especially involved when the big fat action climax kicked in. And, crazily, the climax is bested by that horrifying epilogue where Darth Vader is going after the plans, which the Rebels are chucking from one horrified red shirt to the other like the world's deadliest game of Hot Potato. It's a foregone conclusion Vader won't get it, but you remember the power and ferocity of this character, which has maybe never felt so amoral and (again) tactile. That sequence is immediately one of the great scenes in Star Wars history.*

* Those comments lead to my favorite thing about this movie: it's a Star War that feels like it's operating in an actual war. People die. The Buck Rodgers spirit of the originals is dumped, and a lot of viewers might be surprised that this film functions as a battlefield story. Lots of casualties, hints of moral ambiguity, little room for humor outside of K2's merciful palette-cleansers (which ironically bring laughs by emphasizing how desperate the situation is at any given moment).

Oh, and fuck those CG OT humans. Why why why why why. Why. We didn't need any of them. The drama with Tarkin could've been drama with someone else (or more drama with Vader, who doesn't look like he's made of rubber), and the scene with Leia at the end almost ruins the insane level of goodwill generated by the sequence with Vader.

It's so goddamn unnecessary.

It's a good Star War, but with more qualifiers than I was really hoping for.

[Winston*]

CGI Peter Cushing was insanely bad and I'd maybe argue unethical. How come Crispin Glover was able to sue Zemekis for using his likeness in Back to the Future but they're able to just reanimate a long dead actor for this?

Enjoyed the movie though.

[Winston*]

* Those comments lead to my favorite thing about this movie: it's a Star War that feels like it's operating in an actual war. People die. The Buck Rodgers spirit of the originals is dumped, and a lot of viewers might be surprised that this film functions as a battlefield story. Lots of casualties, hints of moral ambiguity, little room for humor outside of K2's merciful palette-cleansers (which ironically bring laughs by emphasizing how desperate the situation is at any given moment).
.
I was initally impressed that they had seemingly killed off their male lead in such a matter of fact way before they walked back on it a few minutes later.

The other characters were fine to me because I feel they were given enough shading through performance and implied backstory for me to invest, but what was Luna's deal? Hard to think of a single defineable character trait.

[slqrick]

Thinly written characters for sure, and wish they did more with such a great and diverse cast. I also hate the "save crying child in the middle of a battlefield" trope as a narrative shortcut to provide characterization, just needed to say that. That being said, probably my favorite of the series although I'm definitely not really a fan of the movies (the OG Clone Wars cartoon is my favorite Star Wars thing). Loved how they took out the glamour and fantasy of the universe to deliver something that at times was quite unnverving. Alan Tudyk was the definite MVP, incredible addition to the droid world.

[Dead & Messed Up]

CGI Peter Cushing was insanely bad and I'd maybe argue unethical. How come Crispin Glover was able to sue Zemekis for using his likeness in Back to the Future but they're able to just reanimate a long dead actor for this?

Enjoyed the movie though.

They cleared it with Cushing's estate. But it sets an uneasy precedent. And it looked awful, although I'm told some movie-goers didn't even recognize it as CGI.

[Dead & Messed Up]

I was initally impressed that they had seemingly killed off their male lead in such a matter of fact way before they walked back on it a few minutes later.

The other characters were fine to me because I feel they were given enough shading through performance and implied backstory for me to invest, but what was Luna's deal? Hard to think of a single defineable character trait.

He didn't have any distinguishing "traits" beyond his decaying sense of righteousness, which Jyn and Galen reinvigorate in him, but I thought his moral complexity was intriguing (if a little opaque at times). He opens with icing the one guy, plans to kill Galen, etc.

As to his death, the second I saw he had a short fall, I was waiting for him to Tolkien Eagle his way back into the story, which he did, but then I liked that he died with Jyn. It's just a shame that their final scene is only sorta affecting when it should've felt goddamn tragic and bittersweet and elevating. By comparison, it was truly shocking when K2SO was getting pelted until he died. I didn't think for a second the most kiddie-friendly character in the film would buy it in such a cruel way. (And I loved that! Fuck yeah, K2, going out like a fuckin' champ.)

[Morris Schæffer]

Assorted thoughts (spoilers):



- I liked the movie a lot, the sheer sense of spectacle won me over. This was my first IMAX 3D screening with Dolby Atmos to boot and it was sort of revelatory. Never knew I could have 3D with a stunningly bright screen at the same time. Right before the movie started I realized that the whole IMAX screen wasn't going to be used since Rogue One probably wasn't filmed like that, but nevertheless the size of the screen + bright 3D kicked ass. Purely on a visual level, one of the most immersive experiences I've had in quite some time despite the 75 minute drive to Brussels. It would appear I have found my movie screen for Avatar 2,3 and 4. :D

- CGI characters very weird. Duke made the comparison to Schwarzenegger, but those were dimly-lit scenes from what I recall with the T-800 emoting even less than Steven Seagal which possibly reduced uncanny valley. Cushing was front and center, sneering, the face was very detailed, but again, bad choice methinks. Why not stick with face seen in the window reflection instead? I mean, the voice is already there as well so having the face reflected in the window is a very nice touch and leaves no doubt it's Tarkin. Would be cool if 4D allowed us to smell his foul stench. Or perhaps not. CGI Leia was a very brief scene, but bad choice as well. How bout the doors zoom open and we simply see her from behind, fade to black? Anything but this full frontal close-up. Still, 1977 CGI Leia looked more real than 2015 real Leia.

- Damu has said a few posts above that Edwards "demonstrates an incredible sense of scale and tactility. I loved that the space battle is resolved by treating the spaceships as objects instead of laser-shooters. One spaceship pushes another one, which collides into another, which collapses onto the shield."

This was a really cool sequence, but can we say the same about the AT-AT walkers? The scale was there and they looked fearsome in IMAX 3D except they were cannon fodder period. Remember how they were taken down in Empire Strikes Back? First by tow cable, then by Luke using a sort of graple hook, so ingenious, turning these hulking beasts into sort of mini movies within the movie itself. And that was needed too because 1980 Luke says they're too strong for their lasers and they need to use harpoons instead. These thing brake in half like they're literally melting apart. So either the AT-AT's have gotten more advanced or X-Wings are more advanced than snow speeders at taking these hulks down. And if we're talking about a general lack of hopelesness and opposition during the final 30 minutes, then perhaps this is why. Shit blows up all too easily. The sort of shit that really should put up a bigger fight. They're like the Raiders of the Lost Ark swordsman.

- So yeah, main characters die, which is in line with the sort of movie it is, and which I did appreciate, but I don't think I'm gonna equate that with this mission being soaked in misery and "it-couldn't-possibly-succeed" veneer which they kinda say it is when Jynn meets Andor's rag tag team of Cosmic Dirty Dozen. It's definitely more climactic than the final mission in The Force Awakens if not quite Saving Private Ryan's levels. Chirrut walking casually up to that big old lever which seems to scream "PULL ME!!!" while mumbling something about the Force (again!) was sort of indicative of that. It's facile and means the writers can foregoe the need to actually craft something genuinely thrilling and moving involving the need for a lever to be pulled. At least K-2SO, who is Rogue One's Boromir, took it like a man in a great scene. When his eyes extinguish I knew I had found the most powerful scene in the entire movie. Not sure that is really praise with so many humans in it too.

- This movie moves too fast and is a bit too noisy. The score especially is incessant. What happened to introspection, what happened to quietly engaging talky scenes in the Star Wars universe? Remember that scene in Saving Private Ryan in the church when they're just reminiscing about folks with bombs going off in the distant horizon? That creates camaraderie, familiarity, chemistry between players. Rogue One moves blindingly fast. Do they not trust moviegoers to stay awake during a Star Wars movie? Is that the difference between a 145 and a 150 million opening weekend? It is possibly just a little too action-packed for my tastes.

[[ETM]]

Cushing looked over-animated instead of motion-captured. The grimaces and mannerisms were much closer to how a Pixar character moves than what a person's face does. I suspended my disbelief but it was really noticeable.

The fact that some were fooled explains a lot about the positive reception this is getting.

[Morris Schæffer]

;564622']Cushing looked over-animated instead of motion-captured. The grimaces and mannerisms were much closer to how a Pixar character moves than what a person's face does. I suspended my disbelief but it was really noticeable.

Yep, that's exactly it. Note to CGI wizards, take it easy!

[Skitch]

But it sets an uneasy precedent.

Will everyone please go watch The Congress now? PLEASE?

[Dukefrukem]

Look at how good Michael Douglas looks here.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaz6nxyQA28

Dimly lit sure. BUt there's no hint of CGI at all.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SW8KIuMV0s4

[TGM]

You mean to tell me you guys didn't like when CGI Leia turned to look directly in the camera and namedrop A New Hope with a wink and a smile to the audience? :p

[Dukefrukem]

You mean to tell me you guys didn't like when CGI Leia turned to look directly in the camera and namedrop A New Hope with a wink and a smile to the audience? :p

No because it was already said an hour earlier by Jyn.

[[ETM]]

All of my friends said the line over her and groaned. Not a good ending note for a movie.

[Mr. McGibblets]

This thing where prestige-blockbusters exist only to reference earlier films has to stop. My god, trust your fucking movie to stand on its own without CGI-returns of characters and actual clips from the movie you're making a prequel to.

[Winston*]

;564630']All of my friends said the line over her and groaned. Not a good ending note for a movie.
Reminds me of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiqPmsBYieA

[Winston*]

Bonus Star Wars sketch (one of my favourite sketches ever).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nL5AMQAVsU

[Wryan]

Did Leia say "Hope" or "A new hope"? I was too busy looking at her skin cells hydroplaning around her face.

[Dukefrukem]

Hope.

A new hope is referring to something entirely different.

[TGM]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc2kFk5M9x4

[Dukefrukem]

Been waiting for that.

[Winston*]

Watched the first few minutes. I've definitely been guilty of it in the past but I am sick of that sort of dismissive, snarky internet criticism.

[Idioteque Stalker]

General Star Wars pleasures keep this from being unwatchable, but it's such a wasted opportunity to do something different with the franchise. If this is what "Star Wars Stories" are generally going to be (exposition-laden re-hashes of other movies without the good characters or humor to make it work) then I predict everyone in the world will be sick of Star Wars within five or so years. It works now only because we're all hungry for more Star Wars. Disney needs to be very careful in how they treat this franchise going forward--movies of this quality will only hurt it in the long run.

[Idioteque Stalker]

what was Luna's deal? Hard to think of a single defineable character trait.

Jyn too.

[Spinal]

This was actually pretty darn good. I liked it more than Force Awakens. I liked the tight focus on a single objective. I liked that it was a film about sacrifice and that is was willing to show us the consequences of defiance in the face of growing evil. I loved Felicity Jones in the lead role. Whereas Daisy Ridley's character often felt like a franchise trying a little too hard to make up for the deficiencies of past female characters, Jyn felt authentic and lived-in. What a wonderful, captivating face Jones has. The film even has a comic relief droid character that is actually funny!

I thought Forest Whitaker and Donnie Yen characters were weak points, although not necessarily due to the performances.

It's funny how you can tell that there's someone different in the Vader suit, even when he's just walking. But boy, that scene towards the end of the film was awfully cool. It elevated our understanding of the character, whereas the prequel films did precisely the opposite.

I may be willing to get on board with Fezzik's declaration that this is the best of the series since Empire.

[Dukefrukem]

Why does Vader live on a lava planet? Shouldn't he avoid lava?

[Ezee E]

I'll have to take the time to read this whole thread, but quick thoughts is that I was really nervous that this would actually be BORING at first, but it picked up steam after leaving the first planet. The first war scene seemed really cheaply done, despite being a $200 million dollar movie. 1980s style explosions with sparks was so disappointing.

But then once it hits the stride, basically on the first Death Star shot, it really gets going. Pretty exciting, especially with all things going on in Scarif.

The Darth Vader scene is why I think these movies will work. It's exactly what fans would want.

I'll have to pay attention better, but hardly knew any of the character names. Donnie Yen is a welcome addition to the elite characters though.

Forest Whitaker, sadly a dud.

Awesome machine gun.

Don't quite understand the point of Mendelsohn as a whole. Once Tarkin arrived, he was the stronger villain.

The last fifteen minutes make me really want to watch A New Hope.

[Henry Gale]

Why does Vader live on a lava planet? Shouldn't he avoid lava?

It fits perfectly within Edwards' philosophy of, "It might be dumb, but damn if it doesn't look nice."

EDIT: And I'm not sure how I feel about it making it seem as if Anakin hasn't left that planet since Obi-Wan had the high ground and cut off his limbs there. Like, that's the only isolate place you could build a castle to have your milk baths? There?

Thematically it's a little more nicely tragic, but logically...

[Dukefrukem]

It fits perfectly within Edwards' philosophy of, "It might be dumb, but damn if it doesn't look nice."

EDIT: And I'm not sure how I feel about it making it seem as if Anakin hasn't left that planet since Obi-Wan had the high ground and cut off his limbs there. Like, that's the only isolate place you could build a castle to have your milk baths? There?

Thematically it's a little more nicely tragic, but logically...


Well that's what's weird about it. He has left the planet. He was rebuilt at the Grand Republic Medical Facility on Coruscant. (C'mon everyone knows that. ;) ) which makes going back to Mustafar really weird.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwDe845aDt4

[Winston*]

Don't quite understand the point of Mendelsohn as a whole. Once Tarkin arrived, he was the stronger villain.


I thought Mendelsohn and his character were great. A harried middle manager trying to impress his superiors by delivering a project on time.

[Winston*]

It elevated our understanding of the character, whereas the prequel films did precisely the opposite.


I feel that way about the film as a whole. I thought the thing was going to feel completely redundant based on the plot description, but it ended up effectively adding some extra depth and logic to the original.

I wasn't even sure if I was going to see it but his movie has sat very well in my memory. I even liked Forrest Whittaker. I liked that he went for it.

[Spinal]

It's almost like Star Wars is the military recruitment ad. See distant worlds. Save the girl. Be the hero and get a medal.

And then this film is closer to reality. Go to a dangerous place. You'll probably die. And few will know you were there.

[Stay Puft]

Why does Vader live on a lava planet? Shouldn't he avoid lava?

I laughed out loud at that part. All that was missing was the Eye of Sauron.

Anyways, I'm not sure I liked this movie. It's probably the third best Star Wars movie overall? But I guess I'm not much of a fan.

Agree with Spinal about Vader, though. My roommate and I were talking about that on the way back. This film accomplishes in three minutes what the prequels couldn't manage over three films.

The CGI characters really pissed me off, though. This movie goes down the checklist of modern blockbusters, and the callbacks and CGI de-aging (or resurrecting, in the case of Peter Cushing) just does not sit well with me at all. I think I might have actually been fine if we only ever saw Tarkin's reflection in the glass, like that first shot... you know, leave a bit to the audience's imagination... but then it's all close-ups on computer animation and good god what the fuck are they doing. And yet, as wildly offensive as I eventually found every scene with Tarkin, it still wasn't as bad as that final shot. I think the last literal fifteen seconds of this film managed to destroy any goodwill I may have discovered on the journey up to that point. I can't remember the last time a movie managed to trip so fucking hard with only fifteen seconds left to go. Christ, this movie is stupid.

[Morris Schæffer]

Why does Vader live on a lava planet? Why does Batman have a batcave? I think it makes sense coming after his fiery 'demise' in Episode III.

I also have to say that comparing this Vader to the one from the prequels feels like a cheap shot. He's in full villain mode in Rogue One, his arc in the prequels is more tragic and yet there's still merciless killing in ep III's climax. Not saying the prequels don't deserve derision, but you guys missed the mark twice. In my humble opinion of course. :)

[number8]

I'm pretty sure that if this story wasn't set in the Star Wars universe I wouldn't have liked this.

[Idioteque Stalker]

I'm pretty sure that if this story wasn't set in the Star Wars universe I wouldn't have liked this.

Exactly.

[Ezee E]

But it is.

[number8]

It is, and I had fun with it, but I realized that a lot of what I liked about it is just the cool aspects of seeing it play with the Star Wars elements (like how "the force" becomes a question of faith to a non-Jedi believer like Donnie Yen, or how it reestablishes Vader as a horror villain, or the idea of petty office politics between Tarkin and someone else)—which is what drew me to the EU world years ago.

I dislike its construction as a film, though. I thought the pacing was terrible and the characters were too thin. The action scenes are repetitive (particularly the X-Wing dogfights) and the emotional moments too abrupt to land (I loved Godzilla but this was its weakest aspect too). I hate that it spent an hour just assembling the team. This is seriously the plague in modern ensemble movies. Just fucking have them be a team already.

[number8]

Speaking of emotional moments that don't land, what a misstep to reveal the fact that the Death Star can be blown up with one shot to a ventilation shaft was an act of deliberate sabotage during Galen's first time talking to Jyn. I got from Felicity Jones' acting that it's supposed to be an emotional scene but I didn't hear what Galen said to her because I was too busy howling in laughter.

[TGM]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJgfxlgUIZY

[[ETM]]

Yeah, that's pretty much me when it ended. Although I did enjoy some of the icing, it left a bitter taste in general.

[Morris Schæffer]

Just out of curiosity, how many of you know that Vader is literally the Dutch word for father?

The biggest twisteroo in movie history laid on not exactly thinly by a certain Mr. Lucas.

:cool:

[[ETM]]

It's pretty well known, even among those who don't speak Dutch.

[Morris Schæffer]

;564913']It's pretty well known, even among those who don't speak Dutch.

Well ok, I admit I was hoping for a "OMG YOU BLEW MY FREAKIN' MIND!!!" :D

[transmogrifier]

Pretty raggedy-ass all things told, yet another victim of the churn-them-out franchise building that all studios think they must engage in these days in order to build and maintain an audience (and whose to say they are wrong on that front?). Just like the Marvel movies are starting to creak and moan under the weight of both previous and future release dates... I mean, movies, the first two Star Wars movies have been fitted out to appease the cinematic universe without anyone really bothering to check whether the engine under the hood is up to the task. Turns out, it's not. A bunch of random characters tossed together in dramatically unsatisfying ways, with unsatisfying or absent motivations and arcs, and then sacrificed to the cinematic universe in which they are trapped, doomed to bounce from set-piece to set-piece, exposition to exposition, call back to call back until some recycled plot point is resolved.

In a way, my problems with this film are very similar to my problems with La La Land - directors with a pretty good eye pushing cardboard cut-out characters at us in between show-stopping numbers feeding off pre-existing movie lore. At least Rogue One's set pieces are more impressive and it lacks dishonesty regarding the characters and story and themes (it's a war movie through and through, though a pretty half-arsed one at times). But please, someone get an expert script doctor on the phone for these tent pole movies, stat.

[Scar]

Why does Vader live on a lava planet? Shouldn't he avoid lava?

A constant reminder of his greatest defeat.

[Skitch]

A constant reminder of his greatest defeat.

Keeps the anger and hatred fresh and strong.

[Skitch]

Haven't read the thread closely yet, so apologies if repeating others thoughts, just got out and want to get out while its fresh. As with all Star Wars movies, I'm such a fan that I'll have to watch it a dozen times until I can fully digest it.

Spoilered just in case.

- Most of this moves too fast. Here's a planet! Here's some new characters! Another new planet! Easter egg! Easter egg! Easter egg! I would've enjoyed a bit slower pace and a longer movie.
- Main character had a horrible mother. What is wrong with you? You would never leave your kid.
- Tarkin's first scene was...acceptable. I was hoping that was his only scene and I thought it would have been a perfectly fine homage. But that wasn't it. It wasn't a dealbreaker, but it did feel like The Congress (a film no one here will watch no matter how much I plead) :D. At least his CG wasn't as bad as Jeff Bridges in Tron: Legacy.
- Vader rampage scene should have been three times as long. Would've been doubly scary. I was hoping for the first level of Force Unleashed, unstoppable monster on the battlefield. Oh well.
- Leia CG was Tron: Legacy level of rough. :(
- I loved the reused shots from A New Hope, I noticed them immediately.
- The Alliance giving up so readily was really weird. You recruited this girl, but refuse to believe her at every turn. Skeptical at the first turn maybe, but a trusted rebel verified her intel. It was at least worth a look. But instead, they vote "fuck it, lets all just quit and surrender or run away." There was a level of paranoia in the council (and Saw) that I guess must be attributed to fighting the fight so long, and it might have played better with me if the film had a more relaxed pace than the breakneck leap from scene to scene.



I quite enjoyed everything else. Donnie Yen's pimpness knows no bounds. If he had had a bit more tune with the Force, he would have been invincible. It wouldn't even have been fair.

Like I said, still needs to digest with repeat viewings, but for now I'll say OT > Rogue One > everything else

[Scar]

https://youtu.be/biYMDphGTcg


https://youtu.be/VSoViykvjUg

[Scar]

Bac0n and I got a ridiculous case of the laughs / giggles when they put the hood on Donnie Yen, "Are you kidding me? I'm blind!"

Granted, we were several cocktails in at that point.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Bac0n and I got a ridiculous case of the laughs / giggles when they put the hood on Donnie Yen, "Are you kidding me? I'm blind!"

Granted, we were several cocktails in at that point.

That gag got the biggest reaction at my screening.

It's a really good gag.

[Dukefrukem]

Why does Vader live on a lava planet? Shouldn't he avoid lava?

Ha. http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-intriguing-backstory-of-darth-vaders-castle-in-rogu-1790631631

[Ezee E]

That Vader scene could very well be the best use of how terrifying The Force is to non-Force users. Other than that, it's pretty dang casual throughout mostly.

[Skitch]

Bac0n and I got a ridiculous case of the laughs / giggles when they put the hood on Donnie Yen, "Are you kidding me? I'm blind!"

Granted, we were several cocktails in at that point.

I was no cocktails, and I laughed loudly. Something I almost never do in theater. His delivery is perfect.

[Skitch]

One more thing, in another thread there was a discussion about all the trailers right now with slow revamped 80s songs. Well kudos to whoever pointed that out, because never was it more on display that the load that played in front of Rogue One for me. I bet it was nearly ten trailers, all in a row, with that kind of music. It was funny...then it was weirdly embarrassing.

[Spinal]

One more thing, in another thread there was a discussion about all the trailers right now with slow revamped 80s songs. Well kudos to whoever pointed that out, because never was it more on display that the load that played in front of Rogue One for me. I bet it was nearly ten trailers, all in a row, with that kind of music. It was funny...then it was weirdly embarrassing.

I had the same experience! It was ridiculous.

[Dukefrukem]

So I just learned that some of the pilot footage from the X-Wing assault at the end was unseen archive footage from a New Hope. Kinda cool.

[number8]

It was really noticeable when I saw it. We all commented afterwards how the film suddenly got way grainier in certain shots.

[Izzy Black]

CGI Tarkin and Leia super unnecessary. A silhouette or something to that effect, as others have also mentioned, would have been satisfactory. But it not only would have been satisfactory, but I think even more effective than having Tarkin appear, even if Cushing were alive to do it himself. It would have played up the sense of foreboding and foreshadowing given by nostalgic context. A hologram or projection could have also accomplished this effect. The Phantom Menace actually got this stuff right when they used Darth Sidious in this way, but of course all of Palpatine's mystery was utterly destroyed and spoiled in the later films. And Leia... I mean WTF?

Echo the sentiments on the characterization, or lack thereof, noted by basically every critic of this movie. But the biggest disappointment for me is, forget the characters, Edwards took no time to let us really explore this world, its settings, and its environments. A lot of people have observed that the film could have spent more time developing its characters by spending time with them and giving us moments with them, but I would have even been happy with a movie that lacked characters but that still developed the world. I mean Blade Runner had great lead characters, but let's face it, one of the main characters in the film was the world, and Ridley Scott's camera was patient and curious. This is something that I think was even a bit missing from The Force Awakens, and in fact, no post-OT SW movie has ever come close to capturing this sense of world development the way the OT did (long journeys in Tatooine, organic environmental quirks imposing themselves on the characters, meandering subplots, seedy encounters with strange individuals, etc). I guess in the 70s you could get away with cinematic meandering and non-plot driven stage setting, characterization, and theme exposition, but 21st Century Hollywood apparently demands constant action and plotting.

The second big problem I had with this film was what a missed opportunity it was. The film tries to do some things different, but mostly plays it safe and doesn't try to veer too far off script. But it fails for exactly this reason. It's the very thing that makes it tonally confused and indecisive. My advice: Go big or go home. If you are going to try something different, then try something different. But I don't mean force it. Go where this kind of film and story naturally lends itself tonally and thematically. I've been waiting for a Star Wars movie to go full on noir for a while now (the Prequels would have been the right opportunity for this). This is one genre that hasn't been truly exploited yet. I get the war film angle here, but given that we all pretty much knew the fate of these characters going in, and especially given how it ends with the brilliant horror movie Vader climax, a film about dread, uncertainty, and despair would have suited the films miserabilist and sardonic tendencies. Just chuck all that hope business altogether. Leave that for the viewer. Embrace the ambiguity.

All that aside, given that I am such a slave to visual storytelling, I need to see this film again. I had a distracting audience, so I need to revisit with a more keen eye to some of the visual choices. I think there was a lot of thought and detail that went into the scale, framing, and visual composition of this film, and for a director who is more at home operating a camera than wielding a pen, I am interested to see what thematic and narrative mileage can be gleaned from this film on that side of things alone. But again, given the generic and tonal missteps, I suspect impressive individual set pieces and action sequences are nonetheless undermined by the overall visual design and thematic conception of the film.

[Pop Trash]

CGI Peter Cushing was insanely bad and I'd maybe argue unethical. How come Crispin Glover was able to sue Zemekis for using his likeness in Back to the Future but they're able to just reanimate a long dead actor for this?


Man that's weird; I immediately thought of Crispin Glover too on the ride home from the theater. Peter Cushing would probably be ok with this, but the fact that his estate just green lit (presumably with help of some green backs) the resurrection of a guy who has been dead since 1994 doesn't sit well with me. I mean any one of these actors could (and have the absolute right to) pull a Glover and just tell the soul sucking corporation to go fuck themselves and say "I'm not a number, I'm a free man."

Other than Cushing and the (even worse) thud of DNR botoxed Leia, the movie was a mixed bag for me.

[Dukefrukem]

What exactly doesn't sit well with you?

People flipping out of this baffles me.

The Crispin Glover thing is exactly what you think it is. Zemekis didn't get permission to use his likeness. Disney did. What else is there?

[number8]

Actors are gonna have to start including these stipulations in their estates.

[Idioteque Stalker]

Actors are gonna have to start including these stipulations in their estates.

If this becomes standard then it would be fun to see to what extent people cover their asses. "I, Denis Levant, agree to allow my likeness to be used in the event of a Holy Motors 2."

[Izzy Black]

My only problem with it is that it just looks bad and I hate CGI characters. I also think it would have been more effective to give some mystery to Tarkin. And it seems like he's on the screen more than he was in ANH, but feels nowhere near as relevant and as present as he is in

[Dukefrukem]

I was taken back with how bad it looked too. Again, I dont understand why this is considering how good the other movies that have used this technology looked. Arnold both in Terminator Salvation and in Terminator 5, Michael Douglas in Ant-man. Hell, even the young RDJ looked really good. Did ILM just run out of time?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCrs9UycH0w

[Morris Schæffer]

RDJ is a good example of this sort of thing done right. Must be a difference in how the tech is applied. Perhaps Cushing's already ghoulish face doesn't lend itself to the tech? I mean, those cheekbones are a character all by itself. Maybe it's the lighting that does it? RDJ just has a blank, unexpressive face in those 90 secs too.

Hell I dunno. They probably could have done a better job, which is sorta inexcusable if true.

[Dukefrukem]

BTW, this reminds me of the boobies discussion in the Baywatch thread.

Why did no one complain about this with Tarkin's likeness in Revenge of the Sith? Is it because he has dialog in Rogue One? What's the difference?

[Irish]

Wait, they gave Cushing CGI tits in Rogue One?

*runs out to see the movie immediately*

[Dukefrukem]

LOL.

[Pop Trash]

This is a good read.

http://www.keithuhlich.com/2016/12/tarkin-dead-with-chris-hardwick-rogue-one.html

[Scar]

BTW, this reminds me of the boobies discussion in the Baywatch thread.

Why did no one complain about this with Tarkin's likeness in Revenge of the Sith? Is it because he has dialog in Rogue One? What's the difference?

Tarkin has mere seconds in Sith, while he's a major part in Rogue.

[number8]

They mo-capped Douglas and RDJ and Arnold acting out their scenes. They did not dig up Cushing's corpse and put little white balls on its face.

[Lazlo]

They mo-capped Douglas and RDJ and Arnold acting out their scenes. They did not dig up Cushing's corpse and put little white balls on its face.

Yeah, putting a familiar face on a different actor is likely more difficult. I also read something that the fact that Rogue One is lit differently than A New Hope gave ILM some trouble. They could light Tarkin like he was lit in A New Hope and he would look more realistic/familiar/whatever, but he didn't match anyone else in the scene. So they compromised.

I think even the Ant-Man and Civil War examples are still unconvincing. They always seem to do too much with the mouths. They're over-expressive in a way most people's aren't when they speak.

[Dukefrukem]

Tarkin has mere seconds in Sith, while he's a major part in Rogue.

So it's okay to use dead people's likeness if they have 10 seconds of screen time versus 120 seconds.

[Lazlo]

So it's okay to use dead people's likeness if they have 10 seconds of screen time versus 120 seconds.

In Sith isn't it a different guy who just kinda looks like Tarkin rather than a digital approximation of Cushing?

[Dukefrukem]

In Sith isn't it a different guy who just kinda looks like Tarkin rather than a digital approximation of Cushing?

Does it matter? It was a different guy voicing and acting as Tarkin in Rogue. Is the use of CGI the issue?

[Lazlo]

Does it matter? It was a different guy voicing and acting as Tarkin in Rogue. Is the use of CGI the issue?

The difference is the guy in Sith is playing the character Tarkin. He's not playing Cushing playing Tarkin. They just recast the actor like recasting Katie Holmes with Maggie Gyllenhaal to play the same character in Nolan's Batman movies. Unless I'm mistaken and they grafted Cushing's head onto that guy too. I don't think that's the case.

http://a.dilcdn.com/bl/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2016/06/Tarkin-revenge-of-the-sith.jpg

That looks more like they just made up a guy to approximate Cushing's look.

But the guy in Rogue One is playing Cushing playing Tarkin. They're using Cushing's likeness in a way he never approved. I'm sure nowhere in his Star Wars contract was a stipulation allowing for this particular sort of use of his likeness. It covered action figures and art, etc. But this probably hadn't been conceived of and legally negotiated before his death.

I don't particularly care one way or another so long as the legal shit was sorted with Cushing's estate. But the effect is just off enough to be a distraction. More of a distraction than just recasting the character, most likely.

[[ETM]]

They always seem to do too much with the mouths. They're over-expressive in a way most people's aren't when they speak.

Tarkin bothered me for this reason - the animators went overboard with the little details and ended up overexpressing, in the same manner as for example Pixar characters have these familiar motions and grimaces that underline their performance. Seeing that on a supposedly photorealistic human is unnerving.

[DavidSeven]

The film's flaws are well covered in this thread. They are glaring. It seems obvious now why there was some last-minute studio trepidation about how the film would play.

But boy, this movie looks good. I like it conceptually as well. The worst thing about prequels is that they almost always demystify good stories in negative ways. This is a rare one that actually adds depth and meaning to the original work. On paper, this is the right story and right approach. Finally, something that captures the "war" in Star Wars and one that actually dares to embrace the moral grey areas of battle.

Unfortunately, Edwards just never gives us a reason to care. Third-act battles become tedious as we follow VFX mayhem through the eyes of characters we know nothing about. Moments that should be the most devastating in the entire franchise land with a thud. I've seen rom-com breakups that were more affecting than this film's most significant losses.

Certainly, all considered, it's a solid film. If all tent-poles had bones like this, we'd be in great shape. Sadly, the film never finds a way to fill itself out. Good film, not great, but disappointing because of the opportunity missed.

[number8]

I think it's also particularly weird because they didn't do it to Mon Mothma in the same film, so it seems like they just wanted a wow factor of us admiring their resurrection of Cushing rather than seeing him as a character in a story

[Ezee E]

I think it's also particularly weird because they didn't do it to Mon Mothma in the same film, so it seems like they just wanted a wow factor of us admiring their resurrection of Cushing rather than seeing him as a character in a story

Mon Mothma still looked like Mon Mothma to me. Just a few years younger.

Tarkin has a more unique look, so makes sense to me.

[Skitch]

I think it's also particularly weird because they didn't do it to Mon Mothma in the same film, so it seems like they just wanted a wow factor of us admiring their resurrection of Cushing rather than seeing him as a character in a story

Agreed. Again, if he had only been in that first scene, it wouldn't have bothered me at all, it would have played like a nice homage. But then it kept going, and I was like...whhhhyyyyyy.....

[Winston*]

If they had to do it they should've done him as a hologram.

[Izzy Black]

Mon Mothma was great, in terms of casting, but she didn't get particularly good lines and they could've actually given her a character, which they didn't do. So many missed opportunities in this film.

[Spinal]

Are we sure Forest Whitaker's performance wasn't CGI? Because that was the oddest, not-quite-human performance in the film for me.

[Henry Gale]

Relevant...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMB2sLwz0Do

...if only because it shows just how much the actor could've passed for Tarkin with the right make-up. (And it shows footage of Top Secret!!)

Also, the Mon Mothma actress also played her in Revenge of the Sith. Which I've brought up a bunch as a question to people why a real performance that isn't exactly physically similar is acceptable there, but a new Cushing required tireless CG work (that never quite works).

Plus we're going to get Alden Ehrenreich and Donald Glover as Han and Lando soon. No one is expected to sit there and think, "And then a few years later they grew up to look exactly like Harrison Ford and Billy Dee Williams!"

For some reason this just reminds me of How I Met Your Mother, with Bob Saget being the narrator as the voice of old Ted despite the fact that Ted was already a grown adult, and then over the course of the series we'd eventually see actual old Ted speak and, SURPRISE, he just sounded like the Ted we already knew.

[Winston*]

Are we sure Forest Whitaker's performance wasn't CGI? Because that was the oddest, non-quite-human performance in the film for me.

I liked it.

[TGM]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sExTt4j69zI

[Dukefrukem]

I couldn't get through 1 minute of that yesterday. 15 minutes of spine tingling sarcasm is too much

[TGM]

I actually watched it twice. I was dying by the end. :p

[Skitch]

Okay I'll try...

[Skitch]

4 minutes. That made me tired. It was funny for a bit, but then...let it go.

[Izzy Black]

It helps to note that (I think) they're satirizing ColliderVideos in that clip (cf. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odj6NHsWe00). Allegedly, and I have no idea if this is true because I did zero research and only read the YouTube comments, ColiderVideos is pandering to studios for advanced screenings and promo. RedLetter joke about advanced screenings in the video and they seem to be going after Collider.

[Dukefrukem]

It helps to note that (I think) they're satirizing ColliderVideos in that clip (cf. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odj6NHsWe00). Allegedly, and I have no idea if this is true because I did zero research and only read the YouTube comments, ColiderVideos is pandering to studios for advanced screenings and promo. RedLetter joke about advanced screenings in the video and they seem to be going after Collider.

That puts a lot of that video into context now.

[Skitch]

I knew it was Collider. Thats why its so damn irritating. I loathe Collider.

[Henry Gale]

I mean, I really like Collider as a site (for its news, editorials, etc.) but I definitely avoid watching that Movie Talk show. I think I just saw it once way back, simply went "nope!" and just avoided it from there, consciously or otherwise.

Didn't realize it was a big enough deal to have a stigma attached to it and get parody-attacked by other online review shows.

[Skitch]

I guess I should specify, I meant the podcast.

[Winston*]

https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t34.0-12/15978663_10154356918949422_124 1844886_n.jpg?oh=219665cf27307 9f08a4dd998f3e3a90d&oe=5877E216

[Dukefrukem]

That made me chuckle.

[megladon8]

This was really good. Prefer TFA, but this still rocked.

There was an emptiness inside me that I didn't even know was there until yesterday. An emptiness that could only be filled by seeing Darth Vader totally merc a room full of fools.

Darth Vader, man...

[Ezee E]

This was really good. Prefer TFA, but this still rocked.

There was an emptiness inside me that I didn't even know was there until yesterday. An emptiness that could only be filled by seeing Darth Vader totally merc a room full of fools.

Darth Vader, man...

Cue Boba Fett in the Han Solo movie.

[Winston*]

That made me chuckle.

Watched this line delivery on youtube. It's The Room level bad.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hi5jjXTPtyY

[transmogrifier]

This is just as bad:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPhHl2DpD4E

[[ETM]]

Nah.

[transmogrifier]

Yeah.

[Winston*]

One thing that video highlights is that the Death Star in Rogue One is so much more effectively threatening than the planet thing in TFA, despite the much increased destruction in the latter.

[Dead & Messed Up]

One thing that video highlights is that the Death Star in Rogue One is so much more effectively threatening than the planet thing in TFA, despite the much increased destruction in the latter.

For sure. When it arrives in the final scenes, and Krennic sees it, there's also a little bit of poetry to the whole thing (a little bit).

[Dukefrukem]

Was it even ever explained why they destroyed those planets? Are they just into genocide?

[Skitch]

Was it even ever explained why they destroyed those planets? Are they just into genocide?

*shrug*

http://i.imgur.com/rojrV1d.jpg

[Ezee E]

I forget all those scenes in The Force Awakens. I come across it on TV, and still like basically anything with Rey and Finn in it.

[[ETM]]

Was it even ever explained why they destroyed those planets? Are they just into genocide?
TFA? Destroyed the current seat of the Republic, as well as its fleet?

[Izzy Black]

;565432']Nah.

Yeah.

Powerful positions on both sides. After reading both, I can't decide who is right.

[number8]

Yup, they blew up the Republic capital and assassinated all members of the Senate. Essentially Disney wanted to bring the world back to the status quo where the bad guys rule and the good guys are a ragtag team of rebels.

[Dukefrukem]

So in the 40 years between Jedi and Force, there was somewhat of a Republic being rebuilt? Was this explained in the crawl? I honestly don't remember.

[Dukefrukem]

Like, it literally makes no sense why there's a Hitler-like general screaming at the storm troopers in that video above.

The reason the Empire existed in the first place was Palpatine took over with the clone army. They (storm troopers and Tarkin) were just following orders. It somehow morphed into a Nazi-like regime.

[Winston*]

They were pretty Nazi-ish in the originals (just following orders is what Nazis tend to say).

I agree it's ridiculous how overt Abrams makes the connection here though. It's amazing how he was able to invoke the greatest atrocity of the 20th century in such an on-the-nose way to no effective dramatic purpose.

[Irish]

So in the 40 years between Jedi and Force, there was somewhat of a Republic being rebuilt? Was this explained in the crawl? I honestly don't remember.

It's not well explained, but all of the action in TFA happens somewhere on the "outer rim" --- way the fuck away from the main Republic.

It'd be like if Guam got taken over by the alt-right space-nazis and tried to secede from the United States.

[number8]

The crawl mentions that there's a New Republic, but really briefly and vaguely. I think the prequels were blasted so much for being too wonky about Galactic politics that Abrams were afraid of exposition in TFA.

As far as I understand it, the situation is this: after the Emperor was defeated, Rebel Alliance politicians reformed the Galactic Senate and reached a peace treaty with the Imperial army to end the war, joining two parties together to form a New Republic. But a small faction of the Imperial army refused to work with the Senate and broke off to form an independent alt-right militia called the First Order. The Senate didn't take them seriously at the beginning because they're just fringe Nazi weirdos stockpiling arms on bumfuck moons, but over decades the First Order started growing bigger and becoming bolder, so Leia decided to form her own semi-grassroots Resistance specifically to squash the First Order.

What we saw in TFA was essentially the alt-right staging a coup and taking over the government.

[Lazlo]

The crawl mentions that there's a New Republic, but really briefly and vaguely. I think the prequels were blasted so much for being too wonky about Galactic politics that Abrams were afraid of exposition in TFA.

As far as I understand it, the situation is this: after the Emperor was defeated, Rebel Alliance politicians reformed the Galactic Senate and reached a peace treaty with the Imperial army to end the war, joining two parties together to form a New Republic. But a small faction of the Imperial army refused to work with the Senate and broke off to form an independent alt-right militia called the First Order. The Senate didn't take them seriously at the beginning because they're just fringe Nazi weirdos stockpiling arms on bumfuck moons, but over decades the First Order started growing bigger and becoming bolder, so Leia decided to form her own semi-grassroots Resistance specifically to squash the First Order.

What we saw in TFA was essentially the alt-right staging a coup and taking over the government.

This and also being directed by Snoke who has mystical Force-related reasons for wanting the First Order in power. Or wants to use mystical Force-related means to increase their power.

[Dukefrukem]

The Senate didn't take them seriously at the beginning because they're just fringe Nazi weirdos stockpiling arms on bumfuck moons, but over decades the First Order started growing bigger and becoming bolder, so Leia decided to form her own semi-grassroots Resistance specifically to squash the First Order.

Heh, the Senate didn't take them seriously but they were somehow able to make a Death Star-sized planet.

[Lazlo]

Heh, the Senate didn't take them seriously but they were somehow able to make a Death Star-sized planet.

Information doesn't seem to travel very well or quickly in the Star Wars universe. An example is the Empire being able to cover up using the Death Star at Jedha and Scarif. Those are huge disastrous displays of power but still people doubt or are surprised by its existence. You'd think it'd be the lead story in every form of media. But the rebel council that Jyn and Cassian talk to after Jedha don't believe them.

I think with Snoke's backing (assuming his resources and influence are formidable, like Palpatine), I could see the First Order building Starkiller Base in secret.

[number8]

That's kinda how it usually goes with militias. The FBI keeps tabs on them, but lets them clutch their rifles and talk shit about the government in the backwoods and deserts, until they're suddenly mobilized and taking over a nature conservatory or whatever. I think the First Order was supposed to be regarded as a fringe movement that the Republic thought Leia was being unnecessarily hysterical about.

[megladon8]

Information doesn't seem to travel very well or quickly in the Star Wars universe. An example is the Empire being able to cover up using the Death Star at Jedha and Scarif. Those are huge disastrous displays of power but still people doubt or are surprised by its existence. You'd think it'd be the lead story in every form of media. But the rebel council that Jyn and Cassian talk to after Jedha don't believe them.

I think with Snoke's backing (assuming his resources and influence are formidable, like Palpatine), I could see the First Order building Starkiller Base in secret.

The destruction of Jedha was covered up as being a "mining accident".

Scarif, though, they didn't really explain.

However it's only like a day later that they officially show off its power by destroying Alderaan, so I can accept that no one found out in one day.

[Winston*]

The destruction of Jedha was covered up as being a "mining accident".

Scarif, though, they didn't really explain.

However it's only like a day later that they officially show off its power by destroying Alderaan, so I can accept that no one found out in one day.

Nah. Leia received a tape from one of the ships hovering around Scarif. It's an inconsistency, but not a big deal.

[number8]

Ah-ha, I had an inkling that this was the case.


According to editor John Gilroy, the badass action scene was one of the key late tweaks arising from the film’s infamous reshoots. “What was added — and it was a fantastic add — was the Vader action scene, with him boarding the ship and dispatching all those rebel soldiers,” he tells Yahoo Movies. “That was something conceptualized a little later.”

https://www.yahoo.com/movies/how-darth-vader-got-his-groove-back-in-rogue-one-thanks-to-last-minute-tweak-123552848.html

[Henry Gale]

Wooowww...

The more I think about the movie, learn about what was added after principal photography, and compare and contrast those early trailers, I really have to assume everything I found entertaining in the movie was a result of the re-shoots, that the original version of the movie was truly a mess, and that it was a genuine instance of the-powers-that-be trying to improve what they saw because they could, both from budgetary and creative standpoints.

Another addition, while I didn't love the early character introduction scenes, I've heard apparently the original script/cut, they didn't exist at all. The first time we saw Jyn as an adult was her in her sit-down with Moth Mothma and Cassian. Like... WHAT.

[number8]

Another addition, while I didn't love the early character introduction scenes, I've heard apparently the original script/cut, they didn't exist at all. The first time we saw Jyn as an adult was her in her sit-down with Moth Mothma and Cassian. Like... WHAT.

This shot from the teaser trailer that's not in the movie looks like a "character entry" shot. This was probably it.

https://fsmedia.imgix.net/62/72/cc/f9/c130/45fe/95c6/d635d00b2f88/jyns-proper-introduction.gif?w=640&auto=format&gifq=35

[DavidSeven]

Ah-ha, I had an inkling that this was the case.



https://www.yahoo.com/movies/how-darth-vader-got-his-groove-back-in-rogue-one-thanks-to-last-minute-tweak-123552848.html

Really interesting. Have a feeling this film would've fared quite a bit worse among the critics and the public without that scene. That was a bit of fan service that worked spectacularly well and created something really memorable for the film.

And yeah, seems obvious watching the film that a lot of the obvious character issues were at the roots of the thing.

[Peng]

A last-minute fan service that works great thematically for the film too. The desperation of that man in first trying to open the door and then giving up to try pass on that crucial information that will help all of them instead, amidst the impending doom, really reflects the whole film and is pretty moving.

[Ezee E]

A last-minute fan service that works great thematically for the film too. The desperation of that man in first trying to open the door and then giving up to try pass on that crucial information that will help all of them instead, amidst the impending doom, really reflects the whole film and is pretty moving.

Yeah. There's already Lego and 8-bit video game scenes redoing that scene.

It's a great piece of filmmaking, and if the future Star Wars universe movies learn from this, they'll figure out how to do something in the future ones much like this. There's a few other moments like this with the Rogue One characters that TRY to get there. Chirrut's moment being the affecting one, K-2SO's last scene is also pretty affecting. None of them are badass though like Vader's.

I heard that the next movies are all going to take on genres. I really hope Han Solo ends up being like a Western with Boba Feet being the cop tracking him down. Woody Harrelson is already a great addition. Can't wait to see what he'll be like.

[[ETM]]

I still don't get the love for that scene, other than "Vadeeeeerrr!!1"

[Dukefrukem]

;565616']I still don't get the love for that scene, other than "Vadeeeeerrr!!1"

It's a 120-minute force-less Star Wars movie until that scene.

[transmogrifier]

It's a 120-minute force-less Star Wars movie....

Sounds wonderful...

[Ezee E]

;565616']I still don't get the love for that scene, other than "Vadeeeeerrr!!1"

That's exactly what it is though.

[Izzy Black]

The thing that bothers me about merely chalking up the Vader scene to "fan service" (which it no doubt is) is that it risks overlooking what makes the scene great. So many of the "fan service" moments in the film are exactly that - fan service and nothing else. They're empty winks to the audience. Eastereggs, references, and nostalgia points is how I typically read "fan service", which to me, has a negative connotation.

The Vader scene, however, is something that actually connects to the mythos of Star Wars in a meaningful way and bears importantly on not only the narrative, but the legacy of the character itself. There is more horror in that scene than even much of what we see from Vader in the OT. Given Vader's narrative arch, and that it comes fairly early in the series, Vader is actually a more human and conflicted character than he is a menacing moral monster for much of what we see him, which is all the more reason why the prequels blew it by spending too much time on Anakin before his transformation. The last thing we needed was greater glimpse of the "good" side of Vader.

My greatest fear is that, especially now seeing as this came during re-shoots, is that Disney will completely miss what is special about this scene and assume that the biggest problem with the film (if any) was "not enough fan service". Ugh. And I can already imagine the motivation for the re-shoot being fairly misdirected, but yet nonetheless somewhat inadvertently special (studio execs are like "Wait a minute. You got Vader in the movie but he never chops anyone up with his lightsaber? What the fuck man?").

[transmogrifier]

I don't mind the presence of the scene itself; I just didn't find it particularly horrific or scary. It was also clumsily shot.

[Dead & Messed Up]

I was shocked by how suspenseful I found that scene, given the fact that it's all a foregone conclusion - I appreciated that they made Vader a monster and cinematically approached him as such, and I really dug how the scene doubled back on the theme of the entire film. Yeah, it's fan-service, but like Izzy says, it also succeeds as a part of the whole (as opposed to something like the Mos Eisley duo being on Jedha, which is just so dopey).

[Watashi]

It's the only good scene in the movie.

[Ezee E]

I was shocked by how suspenseful I found that scene, given the fact that it's all a foregone conclusion - I appreciated that they made Vader a monster and cinematically approached him as such, and I really dug how the scene doubled back on the theme of the entire film. Yeah, it's fan-service, but like Izzy says, it also succeeds as a part of the whole (as opposed to something like the Mos Eisley duo being on Jedha, which is just so dopey).

Yeah, been meaning to say that the Mos Eisley duo on Jedha is a bad example as well. Just a "a-ha" moment and completely forgotten afterwards. Plus, the nose guy didn't even look like the one in A New Hope.

[Skitch]

Yeah, been meaning to say that the Mos Eisley duo on Jedha is a bad example as well. Just a "a-ha" moment and completely forgotten afterwards. Plus, the nose guy didn't even look like the one in A New Hope.

I would've enjoyed it more if there had been no dialogue, just a bump, "HEY!", and move on. Any supernerd fan would've gotten it instantly, and thats really who those easter eggs are for. The interaction as it is, I was like "I GOT IT, MOVE ON".

And youre right, the nose guy was off. Maybe he was on the edge of Jedha during the destruction and got uglier before Mos Eisly. :D

[Ezee E]

I would've enjoyed it more if there had been no dialogue, just a bump, "HEY!", and move on. Any supernerd fan would've gotten it instantly, and thats really who those easter eggs are for. The interaction as it is, I was like "I GOT IT, MOVE ON".

And youre right, the nose guy was off. Maybe he was on the edge of Jedha during the destruction and got uglier before Mos Eisly. :D

Fan fiction begin!

[Scar]

It's the only good scene in the movie.

I enjoyed the movie far more the second time around, once I knew where I was going to get my Vader fix.

[Dukefrukem]

Yeah the yay/nay ratio baffles me here. I'd much rather watch this again than TFA.

[TGM]

Yeah the yay/nay ratio baffles me here. I'd much rather watch this again than TFA.

Not me. I could easily sit back and watch and enjoy TFA again. Meanwhile, I honestly have no desire to ever revisit this film again. *shrug*

[Sycophant]

Yeah, this film has nothing in it that would ever compel me to rewatch it, I don't think. It feels utterly inconsequential.

Not that it's a total disaster, or not entertaining enough in the moment. A lot of it is alright. It just feels like empty calories, and the more you chew on it, the texture's kinda bad too and the aftertaste is like aspartame.

If what you want is more Star Wars, Rogue One is fine.

[Dukefrukem]

I want more lore. I want to see more of the universe. And this movie produced 4x more lore than TFA not even counting the fan service shit.

[Sycophant]

What you see as lore I see as barely-interesting and calculatedly exploitable promotional and merchandising opportunities. This is a movie that is a pretty predictable action film built entirely around a line of throwaway dialogue from the first Star Wars movie. In doing so, it created a bunch of other nodes you can build media and toys out of--new planet settings, new action figures, new graphic novels that expand on Forrest Whitaker's barely-a-character.

Again, it's fine if what you want is more Star Wars.

It's cool that its lead is a woman and there are finally Asians and Latinos in Star Wars though.

[Ezee E]

Different planets with truly different locations. I don't even know what Tatooine II was called.

That's one part that I liked more about Rogue One compared to TFA

[Dukefrukem]

Jakku.

The only reason I know that is because it's in the Battlefront game and they say it a dozen times within 60 seconds. "Why does everyone want to go back to back to Jakku?"

[[ETM]]

I don't remember any of the locations in Rogue One. Or the characters. I guess it goes both ways. Also, to me, TFA has brought more lore and possibilities for the future. Episode VIII will show who's right. It has to be something completely new and refreshing or all the good will will disappear.

[number8]

Which is why this reasoning is so funny to me.


While every other location in Rogue One is identified on screen by a chyron, Mustafar conspicuously isn’t. Gilroy explains that was an intentional Easter egg.

“We had one on for a little while, but what we realized was Star Wars fans — true Star Wars fans — if they saw the name, would know exactly what they were going to see. And we wanted it to be a bit of a surprise, so we decided to not put the title on so Star Wars fans could be surprised along with people who were not initiated to where Mustafar was.”

[Henry Gale]

Which just leaves people like me, a big fan of the series almost exclusively through the original films and not much of the lore beyond them (loved some of the video games, Tartakovsky's Clone Wars, and couple of the Expanded Universe books as a kid, but not much else comes to mind), to just go, "Is this the volcano planet Obi-Wan had the high ground and cut Anakin's limbs off? WHY WOULD HE BUILD A CASTLE HERE."

[Sycophant]

I know one of the reasons people are throwing up their hands in despair at VII is that it continues its emphasis on the Skywalker family. However, through the main body of films, the Skywalker family has become the central, narrow pillar to the story of this sprawling galaxy. I understand resistance to that, but ultimately we know the universe through the stories we have, and Star Wars is about nothing if not Skywalkers and the Force. (I know, there have been a bunch of expanded universe additions that flesh out this universe, but I and most filmgoers don't have anything to do with that.) One thing in favor of TFA is how it continues that story. It's why I think Rey kind of has to be a daughter, real or adoptive, of Luke to make her story fit in the admittedly father-fixated narrative of Star Wars.

More lore is great if you want to have a truly transmedial experience, collecting ten variants of a comic book issue, weaving together the cutscenes in post-Disney acquisition videogames, and seeing footnotes in fan guides spun out into films like Rogue One that have no internal reason for being, just the external logic of brand extension and fan service. You can set more tabletop RPGs and make more fan films in a universe with more shit lore in it.

More lore is useless if you just want to see a good movie, or want to follow the characters and narrative you liked in Star Wars. Any of the three major characters introduced in VII were far more interesting and charismatic than anyone in Rogue One--and that has nothing to do with whether or not they lived at the end of the movie. Plot and locations were recycled (though I think the extent to which that is true is overblown in the criticism and/or backlash the film has received, though the Star Killer thingy is definitely underbaked as a Big Bad Base), sure, but the narrative had a momentum and self-sustaining interest that Rogue One, in my view, lacks.

If Rogue One came out when I was really into Star Wars in high school, I'd probably be over the moon about this movie. I'm not at a point in my life where all I want is more Star Wars. If what I wanted was more Star Wars, it would be a fine movie.

Now I'm going to go watch my 300th hour of Gundam. Later, jerks.

[number8]

Which just leaves people like me, a big fan of the series almost exclusively through the original films and not much of the lore beyond them (loved some of the video games, Tartakovsky's Clone Wars, and couple of the Expanded Universe books as a kid, but not much else comes to mind), to just go, "Is this the volcano planet Obi-Wan had the high ground and cut Anakin's limbs off? WHY WOULD HE BUILD A CASTLE HERE."

That is Mustafar. And that is why he built his crib there. It's the most goth thing you can do.

But here's the thing, that was not a thing previously established by any ancillary SW stuff. They came up with it for Rogue One. So, really, the idea of not naming it as Mustafar in order to "surprise" SW fans with the reveal that Vader has a castle there is baffling and hilarious.

[Dukefrukem]

I had a huge problem with that when I saw the movie. I ended up digging up the reason why they did it. And now I can't find the video or remember the explanation.

I just want to draw an arrow to the lava river "My life changed here"

https://i0.wp.com/media2.slashfilm.com/slashfilm/wp/wp-content/images/rogueone-darthvader-castle-conceptart-700x420.jpg

[Sycophant]

BTW, the new side film seems confused and noncommittal about exactly what makes a Star Wars film, whether to embrace or depart from established conventions. No title crawl, but now we have title overlays telling us where we are and flashbacks focalized through the protagonist. A score beholden to Williams' original. Interested to see where future films go with breaking and adhering.

[Skitch]

I'm split on why its a struggle to remember the names of planets and characters. Are we jaded because as kids it was a life changing affair so you soaked in every detail as thought it were religion, or is it because the names they came up for this entry are needlessly complicated?

I spent half the movie trying to remember her name, then the other half trying to figure out how you spell it. Gin? Jinn? Ursoe? Orsow? Couldn't remember the guys name to save my life, really struggled to remember Saw, and no clue what any new planet or city was called. Forgot the second the text left screen.

Maybe I'm just old, but its tougher to snap recall than, oh say, LUKE SKYWALKER. HAN SOLO.

[number8]

Gin? Jinn?

It's Jyn, obviously. What are you, illiterate?

[Skitch]

It's Jyn, obviously. What are you, illiterate?

Yis.

[Ezee E]

I'd have spelled it like the drink.

[Grouchy]

I can't understand people comparing this unfavorably to Force Awakens. I mean, this is what I expect a Star Wars sequel to deliver - new locations, a spin on familiar scenarios (the Rebellion as an actual guerrilla outfit with actual missions and at least a measure of strategy), that sense of wonder and throwback to childhood... I know the characters and dialogue are not exactly Tenessee Williams, but compared to TFA they sort of are! I mean, there's one good character in that film and that's Finn. I don't jump into the Rey bandwagon at all because... I get that it's nice to have a female Jedi at the center of the franchise, but she's literally a flawless character. Everything she does works out great, she doesn't have a learning curve at all and, worst of all, she has basically no distinctive personality or character traits. I think that sort of thing is improved upon in Rogue One - they might not be the most memorable characters in the world, but there's a level of writing to Jyn Erso or Cassian that sticks out over the fan fiction standards set by Abrams. And hell, the droid and the blind chinaman are great.

This is by far the best movie about this universe since the days of Empire and Jedi. It certainly gives us the best and most intimidating version of Darth Vader with just two short scenes where he uses the Dark Side of the Force to outstanding effect. While I had some issues with the editing at the beginning (mainly cutting way too fast from exposition scene to exposition scene), I thought the accumulative effect really paid off for the final battle, which had some moments of crazy suspense. I also loved how it felt like a throwback to classic war Hollywood cinema like The Dirty Dozen. Gareth Edwards might not be a brilliant director (I'm one of those who hated Godzilla) but he has a good sense of scale and visual awesomeness that gets to shine big time with the right kind of script.

I don't have anything else to add here. I'm in complete agreement about the uncanny valley feeling about Tarkin and Leia - I'm not sure if it's exactly uncanny valley, but it's like suddenly jumping from a live action movie to watching Beowulf or playing a videogame - but it wasn't enough to ruin the thrilling ending for me.

[Dead & Messed Up]

The Force Awakens had more charismatic actors delivering zippier dialogue, but yeah, I can't countenance the idea that TFA actually had better characters than Rogue One.

Except for Kylo Ren, that boy was on point.

[Dukefrukem]

Yes to everything grouchy said.

[number8]

Hmm. So is it a constant that people who hated Godzilla liked this one, and those of us who loved Godzilla are disappointed by this?

[[ETM]]

It's plausible. But it's bewildering. It's like alternative facts are everywhere all of a sudden. TFA and RO are both flawed but I guess it depends on what your personal view of what SW is paints your opinion way more than any objective qualities. To me Rey's theme alone is > all of Rogue One.

[Sycophant]

Hmm. So is it a constant that people who hated Godzilla liked this one, and those of us who loved Godzilla are disappointed by this?



Nah. Hated Godzilla. Liked this more, but still disliked it. Their problems are different, but not dissimilar.

[Skitch]

I'd give both a really solid and enjoyable 8/10. More or less. Could change with rewatches.

[Dead & Messed Up]

I loved Godzilla and liked Rogue One with some significant reservations.

[transmogrifier]

Hmm. So is it a constant that people who hated Godzilla liked this one, and those of us who loved Godzilla are disappointed by this?

True for me at least.

[Peng]

I give both 7.5/10, but very high 7.5 verging on 8 for Godzilla (it's 4/5 on a letterboxd scale), while Rogue One a low 7.5 (3.5/5).

[TGM]

True for me at least.

Same for me as well.

[Sycophant]

I give both 7.5/10, but very high 7.5 verging on 8 for Godzilla (it's 4/5 on a letterboxd scale), while Rogue One a low 7.5 (3.5/5).

I think this post broke my mind a little.

[Morris Schæffer]

I like both Godzilla and Rogue One. I prefer Rogue One though.

[Irish]

This was much worse than I expected, and I didn't expect much.

Echo statements from TGM, ETM, number8, and a few others. Inane plot, no characters, and not quite "Star Wars."

[Philip J. Fry]

Finally got to see this. First impression: Best SW film since ROTJ at least.

[Dukefrukem]

Yeh my second viewing of this was not kind. As I sat there, I realized there was nothing to look forward to. No set pieces. No characters I liked. No witty banter. Will likely toss this ranking under Phantom.


https://vimeo.com/209263699

[TGM]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GamrRXyIUs

[TGM]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9-pTStLGGo