Intelligent Sci-Fi Discussion

[Dukefrukem]

I loved the discussion we had in the Total Recall Remake (http://matchcut.artboiled.com/showthread.php?2157-Total-Recall-Remake/page3&p=411558#post411558) thread about what constitutes "good" sci-fi.

Does it provide any sci-fi intellect? Or is it a disguised sub-genre movie (run and gun, chase, generic action). If you remove the sci-fi elements, what movie would you end up with? How directors combine sci-fi with intelligence, or is it merely a backdrop that adds no value to the underlining story?

What do you think about this list of The 50 Best Sci-Fi Films Of The 21st Century (So Far) (http://theplaylist.net/50-best-sci-fi-films-21st-century-far-20160719/)?

Listed here for convenience since they have them across several pages:

50. “Remainder� (2015)
49. “2046� (2004)
48. “Advantageous� (2015)
47. “The World’s End� (2013)
46. “Midnight Special� (2016)
45. “Another Earth� (2011)
44. “Serenity� (2005)
43. “Coherence� (2014)
42. “Cloverfield� (2008)
41. “The Martian� (2015)
40. “Never Let Me Go� (2010)
39. “Signs� (2002)
38. “Hard To Be A God� (2013)
37. “Star Trek� (2009)
36. “The Mist� (2007)
35. “The Prestige� (2006)
34. “Monsters� (2010)
33. “A.I: Artificial Intelligence� (2001)
32. “Interstellar� (2013)
31. “Edge Of Tomorrow� (2014)
30. “Battle Royale� (2000)
29. “Melancholia� (2011)
28. “Dawn Of The Planet Of The Apes� (2014)
27. “Star Wars: The Force Awakens�
26. “Beyond The Black Rainbow� (2010)
25.�The Clone Returns Home� (2008)
24. “Sunshine� (2007)
23. “Wall-E� (2008)
22. “Donnie Darko� (2001)
21. “Ex Machina� (2015)
20. “A Scanner Darkly� (2006)
19. “Minority Report� (2002)
18. “Looper� (2012)
17. “Gravity� (2013)
16. “Attack The Block� (2011)
15. “Inception� (2010)
14. “Snowpiercer� (2014)
13. “Solaris� (2002)
12. “District 9� (2009)
11. “The Host� (2006)
10. “Holy Motors� (2012)
9. “Primer� (2004)
8. “Timecrimes� (2007)
7. “Moon� (2009)
6. “Her� (2013)
5. “Mad Max: Fury Road� (2015)
4. “Eternal Sunshine Of The Spotless Mind� (2004)
3. “Upstream Color� (2013)
2. “Under The Skin� (2013)
1. “Children Of Men� (2006)

As far as I can tell, there's a few films on here that don't belong when you stick to the 'intelligent sci-fi' rule: Star Trek, Star Wars, Children of Men, District 9, The Martian, Mad Max: Fury Road,

Otherwise it's a pretty good list. A few movies in the 40 range that I haven't seen.

Anyone see Remainder? Advantageous? Timecrimes?

[Irish]

Oh. My. God. That thread. I long for the heady days when I was totally right and a complete dick about it. ;)

Two or three observations, current day:

- I can't believe that fucking awful Minority Report remake generated that much discussion

- Every other thing Skitch posted in there was great

- DaMU pretty much nailed it with this:


I think a problem is that literary science fiction has both the time and the proper medium for more cerebral explorations. Cinema, simply by being a "language" based on the presentation of imagery, places more emphasis on visualizing these ideas, and visualizing them puts more emphasis on spectacle, which appeals to a different part of the mind than ideas. It's the difference between visceral response and intellectual engagement.

A theory, anyway.

That's not to diminish the potential of sci-fi cinema, but I think literature has a natural advantage in this regard.

I thought about this the other day, in some other discussion thread, when talking about the differences between mediums.

[baby doll]

Boy, it's been a dismal century for sci-fi, hasn't it?

Children of Men is a classic example of a straightforward action film that scribbles topical allusions in the margins (e.g., black hoods Ã* la Guantanamo) to let us know how important it is. Ditto The Host and, at a lower level of achievement, District 9, and at a still much lower level of achievement, Battle Royale--a film that has all the drawbacks of minimalism and none of the benefits.

I like Under the Skin a lot, but at the same time, I'd still rather watch a real Kiarostami film. Similarly, there's nothing wrong with Soderbergh's remake of Solaris (or at least I remember liking it at the time), but I wouldn't watch it again.

I'd say about sixty percent of Her is shots of Joaquin Phoenix's face in close-up while he listens to his computer.

Snowpiercer is silly and incoherent. Either they have bullets or they don't; make up your mind. The Prestige and Inception are silly and insufferably bombastic.

The part of Gravity that's about Sandra Bullock trying to survive in space is exciting and innovative; the part that's about her getting over the death of her child and finding Jesus is generic garbage. Signs was also pretty Jesusy.

The complicated time-travel plots of Donnie Darko and Looper are diverting, but ultimately both are disposable entertainments that fade into oblivion the moment the credits start rolling.

Much of Minority Report is wonderful, but ultimately it's more a collection of scenes and sequences than a coherent whole. Plus, the last half-hour is anti-climatic in the same way that the last half-hour of Speed is a let down.

Wall-E is cute but I wouldn't watch it again.

Apart from being offensively stupid, the Star Trek reboot perverts the dynamic of the original series by mashing Spock and Bones into a single character and turning Kirk into the Tom Cruise character from Top Gun.

Dawn of the Planet of the Apes is a routine summer blockbuster with no distinguishing characteristics whatsoever.

The first half-hour of The World's End is funny, but everything after the big twist is just monotonous and dull. (I prefer Ferrara's Body Snatchers for this sort of thing.)

That said, I have nothing bad to say about 2046, A.I. Artificial Intelligence, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, Holy Motors, Melancholia, Moon, Primer, and A Scanner Darkly.

As for the larger question of "intelligent sci-fi," I don't think science fiction is inherently any more or less intelligent than any other genre.

[Irish]

As far as I can tell, there's a few films on here that don't belong when you stick to the 'intelligent sci-fi' rule: Star Trek, Star Wars, Children of Men, District 9, The Martian, Mad Max: Fury Road

Well, lemme draw a distinction here that I didn't four years ago. I tried to argue two things and did it badly.

One argument is that for something to count as sci-fi, the genre elements have to be unique to the story. If it's possible to tell the story in another way, in another genre, then it really isn't sci-fi. So space opera stuff like Star Wars or Serenity, adventure movies like The Martian, or movies that don't fully utilize their sci-fi premise, like Children of Men, any half dozen YA dystop adaptations, or, ahem, Star Trek.

The second argument is pure personal preference. I get off on the potential for sci-fi to be a headtrip. I like movies that throw ideas off the screen and into the audience make us do, at least, some of the work. I like movies that spin me around with all their potential interpretations. I like movies that have a distinct point of view and something to say about the world. Sci fi is uniquely suited among genre stuff to do all that. That's what I meant way back when I was complaining about the lack of intelligence is big budget stuff.

To criticize The Playlist's list directly: I see a lot of popular titles and little sense. The back half of the list seems almost random (Another Earth? Midnight Run? Really?). They got Coherence on there far too low. It wasn't just one of the best sci-fi films of 2014, it was one of the best of the decade. I also liked Predestination and The Rover from that same year, and they didn't even make the cut.

One last note: I've developed a soft spot for sci-fi movies that contain ideas, or elements I've never seen before, despite completely fucking up their narratives or generally half-assing it in other areas. I'd rather watch movies like 28 Days Later, Solaris, Aeon Flux, Automata, The Rover, and the Robocop remake than most of the stuff in The Playlist's top ten. They aren't "better," just a helluva lot more interesting. (Automata, for one, is almost a complete clusterfuck but contains an idea I've literally never seen represented in another feature film).

[Dukefrukem]

Predestination is definitely a miss on the list. Hard to imagine how they missed it in a "top 50" list.

And yes, the back half to he list is random, I think you meant "Midnight Special" Irish? (not Midnight Run) - You liked that movie though right?

[Irish]

Predestination is definitely a miss on the list. Hard to imagine how they missed it in a "top 50" list.

And yes, the back half to he list is random, I think you meant "Midnight Special" Irish? (not Midnight Run) - You liked that movie though right?

Ha, yes. Midnight Special.

I don't know if I posted in that movie's thread. I loved the opening, liked all the performances. It has a lot of good stuff in it, but they use a narrative device that I knew would end badly while watching it, and that the film's third act was all but guaranteed to disappoint. The Signal (also from 2014!) did exactly the same thing. It made both movies fun to watch as a one-off experience, superficial overall, and totally uninteresting as a potential rewatch.

[Irish]

BTW, Fandor did a similar "Best Sci-Fi of the 21st Century" recently:


https://vimeo.com/162911029

20: Under the Skin (2014) dir. Jonathan Glazer
19: Beyond the Black Rainbow (2010)
18: Ex Machina (2015) dir. Alex Garland
17: Looper (2012) dir. Rian Johnson
16: Timecrimes (2008) dir. Nacho Vigalondo
15: Primer (2004) dir. Shane Carruth
14: Source Code (2011) dir. Duncan Jones
13: Snowpiercer (2014) dir. Bong Joon-ho
12: District 9 (2009) dir. Neill Blomkamp
11: Edge of Tomorrow (2014) dir. Doug Liman
10: Minority Report (2002) dir. Steven Spielberg
9: Inception (2010) dir. Christopher Nolan
8: Upstream Color (2013) dir. Shane Carruth
7: Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind (2004)
6: Her (2013) dir. Spike Jonze
5: Solaris (2002) dir. Steven Soderbergh
4: Sunshine (2007) dir. Danny Boyle
3: Moon (2009) dir. Duncan Jones
2: The Martian (2015) dir. Ridley Scott
1: Children of Men (2006) dir. Alfonso Cuaron

https://www.fandor.com/keyframe/the-best-science-fiction-of-the-century-so-far

[Dukefrukem]

Jesus why everyone is obsessed with Children of Men?

[Irish]

What are your top picks from both lists, Duke?

[Dukefrukem]

I'll have to think of a top 10- Will try to think of one later today when I get some time.

Upstream Color and Primer would be in my top 10. So would Inception and probably Moon.

Movies I disliked, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, Looper, Under the Skin, Source Code. The Martian

[baby doll]

Jesus why everyone is obsessed with Children of Men?Vaguely liberal politics in the middle of the Bush era, show-offy long takes courtesy Terrence Malick's cinematographer, an open-ended ending, "based on the graphic novel by..." street cred, and because it's an "intelligent" sci-fi movie.

Personally, I'd much rather watch a real Peter Watkins film.

[Irish]

Point of order: The movie was based on a 1990s pop novel from mystery author PD James, although it deviated from the source material in significant ways.

[baby doll]

Point of order: The movie was based on a 1990s pop novel from mystery author PD James, although it deviated from the source material in significant ways.I guess I was confusing it with V for Vendetta for some reason.

[Ezee E]

Children of Men is in my top ten of all time, so no problem here.

[transmogrifier]

Children of Men is getting close to being a shoe-in for most overrated movie of the 21st century.

[Dead & Messed Up]

In general I dig both of those lists. They're predictable but for solid reasons - a lot of those movies rock. Here are some other sci-fi (or sci-fi-ish) movies that I've enjoyed from the 2000s/2010s. Asterisks for the ones I'd probably include on a list:

2012*
The Box
Chronicle*
Cloud Atlas*
The Fountain
Godzilla*
The Man From Earth
Metropolis (2001)
Pacific Rim
Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow
Titan AE
World of Tomorrow* (probably unlisted because it's a short)
Zathura

[Skitch]

What the serious fuck is everyone splooging over Children of Men for?? I mean, its a fine film for sure, but best scifi of last anything? No way.

[Skitch]

- Every other thing Skitch posted in there was great


Lordy is that thread the definition of how I post....sitting on sidelines and lobbing in comment to spurn on when the argument begins to wan yet not quite taking a side. I cant help it, you guys post more interesting thoughts than me. :D

[Ezee E]

Controversial thought: I enjoy Book of Eli a lot more than Fury Road.

[Skitch]

I like both. Book of Eli is an underrated flick.

[megladon8]

Nice to see some recognition for Soderbergh's Solaris, which is better than Tarkovsky's widely touted original.

I wish it would get a BluRay release.

[baby doll]

Nice to see some recognition for Soderbergh's Solaris, which is better than Tarkovsky's widely touted original.

I wish it would get a BluRay release.Rather than try to argue that Tarkovsky's version is obviously superior (since I doubt I'd convince anybody not already in agreement), I'll simply point out that they're very different kinds of movies: Soderbergh's is tightly plotted and highly legible (and accordingly, won't pose any difficulties for viewers who like their movies straightforward and easily digestible), whereas Tarkovsky's makes room for shots of underwater reeds, Tokyo traffic, and floating bodies that bring the plot to a standstill and its story can't be easily paraphrased (especially towards the end).

[Irish]

Sci-fi that soars on great ideas

DARK STAR (1974)

A BOY AND HIS DOG (1975)

THE BROTHER FROM ANOTHER PLANET (1984)

ALPHAVILLE (1965)

LIQUID SKY (1982)

CUBE (1997)

PI (1998)

PRIMER (2004)

MONSTERS (2010)

ANOTHER EARTH (2011)

LOVE (2011)

SAFETY NOT GUARANTEED (2012)

https://filmink.com.au/2016/sci-fi-that-soars-on-great-ideas/

[[ETM]]

Nice to see some recognition for Soderbergh's Solaris, which is better than Tarkovsky's widely touted original.

I wish it would get a BluRay release.

I haven't seen the remake, but it would have to be a fucking all-time masterpiece to be better than the original.

[Russ]

http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/ff324/astrojester/Hands-Up_zps1hjc3rb8.jpg

Irish, have you seen Andrzej Żuławski's "unfinished" epic sci-fi masterpiece (according to some, including me, naturally :) ), On the Silver Globe? Honestly, if I had to guess, I'm thinking you probably wouldn't care all that much for the film (due to its many excesses and self-indulgence) -- although I think you'd find the history of its production (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Silver_Globe_(film)) infinitely more interesting. I can guarantee one thing: love it or hate, you'd be hard-pressed to find a more thought-provoking intelligent sci-fi film.

Be sure to check out this good filmcomment article (http://www.filmcomment.com/blog/film-week-silver-globe/) too.

[Irish]

Irish, have you seen Andrzej Żuławski's "unfinished" epic sci-fi masterpiece (according to some, including me, naturally :) ), On the Silver Globe? Honestly, if I had to guess, I'm thinking you probably wouldn't care all that much for the film (due to its many excesses and self-indulgence) -- although I think you'd find the history of its production (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Silver_Globe_(film)) infinitely more interesting. I can guarantee one thing: love it or hate, you'd be hard-pressed to find a more thought-provoking intelligent sci-fi film.

Be sure to check out this good filmcomment article (http://www.filmcomment.com/blog/film-week-silver-globe/) too.

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Russ again."

Holy shit!!!!!

That looks incredible. Goddamn, Russ, you always have such great recs. I hadn't even heard of this thing. Thanks!

[Irish]

Russ, saw this & thought of you --

On the Silver Globe Is the Best Sci-Fi Film Never Made (http://motherboard.vice.com/read/on-the-silver-globe-is-the-best-sci-fi-film-never-made)

[Russ]

That was a very informative article. Thanks, Irish.

[Grouchy]

I don't think there's any overrating going on with Children of Men - it's a fucking masterpiece and Cuarón's best film to date, which is saying something. I still wouldn't put it at the top of a list like this because the sci-fi elements are the backdrop for an allegory... they are not really at the forefront of the story. There's never really any serious insight into the reasons behind the infertility crisis and everything seems to be more mystical than scientific.

But then again, The Martian is more properly science-fiction and is a much more banal movie. It wouldn't even make my Top 25.

[transmogrifier]

Children of Men is supremely overrated.

[Irish]

Chronopolis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronopolis_(film)): Obscure stop-motion animated sci-fi outta Poland, 1982.

It was the director's first and only film.

cc: Russ

[Russ]

Thanks, Irish. Saw it a few years ago, nice to have it available again.

[Irish]

Thanks, Irish. Saw it a few years ago, nice to have it available again.

Nice!

(You're waaaaay ahead of me -- this was another one I'd never heard of)

[Dukefrukem]

What are your top picks from both lists, Duke?

I owed you a top 20, well here it is. I used your definition in the descrp. Working on 21st century list now.

https://letterboxd.com/dukefrukem/list/top-20-intelligent-sci-fi-films/

[Irish]

I owed you a top 20, well here it is. I used your definition in the descrp. Working on 21st century list now.

https://letterboxd.com/dukefrukem/list/top-20-intelligent-sci-fi-films/

Wow, great list!

You've a lot of my favorites on there -- Blade Runner, Repo Man, Predestintation -- and others I'd argue violently over :D

[Skitch]

Make your list too!

[Irish]

Who, me? :D

I could only do it if I'm allowed to cheat with TV episodes and, frankly, "bad" movies.

(I think most mainstream sci-fi is either actively bad or terribly boring; the stuff that interests me most are the movies that swung for the fences and almost totally whiffed it.)

[Skitch]

Go for it.

[Dukefrukem]

Wow, great list!

You've a lot of my favorites on there -- Blade Runner, Repo Man, Predestintation -- and others I'd argue violently over :D

I can't help my love for Inception.

Interstellar I can understand. :D

Prometheus... well... you don't have to go far into this (http://matchcut.artboiled.com/showthread.php?4047-Prometheus-(Ridley-Scott)/page5&p=425721&viewfull=1#post425721)thread to know that I adore this movie.

[TGM]

Who, me? :D

I could only do it if I'm allowed to cheat with TV episodes and, frankly, "bad" movies.

(I think most mainstream sci-fi is either actively bad or terribly boring; the stuff that interests me most are the movies that swung for the fences and almost totally whiffed it.)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXsQAXx_ao0

[Irish]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tS7POSMD9c

I don't know how "intelligent" some of these are, but I guess we can argue about that :D

Legit

- ET: The Extra Terrestrial
- Ghost in the Shell
- Videodrome
- Fard (short)
- Phantasm
- Invasion of the Body Snatchers (1956)
- Planet of the Apes (1968)
- Akira
- Robocop (1987)
- Moon
- Cargo (short)
- The Day the Earth Stood Still (1951)
- Edge of Tomorrow
- Predestination

Two movies that are brilliant because of a single line of dialogue

- 28 Days Later
- The Rover

Bad Movies with Good Ideas (and so I love them)

- Alien 3
- Automata
- Solaris (2002)
- Robocop (2014)
- Aeon Flux
- Altered States
- Face Off
- The Flesh Eaters (1964)
- The Book of Eli
- Tomorrowland
- Tank Girl

Top TV

- "The City on the Edge of Forever" (Star Trek, S1 E28)
- "The Inner Light" (Star Trek: The Next Generation, S5 E25)
- "Year of Hell" (Star Trek: Voyager, S4 E8-9)
- "Clyde Bruckman's Final Repose" (The X-Files, S3 E4)
- "For the Man Who Has Everything" (Justice League Unlimited, S1 E2)
- "The Lonely" (The Twilight Zone, S1 E7)
- "Rules of Attraction" (Otherworld, S1 E1)

Three movies that are goddamn gorgeous, but I'm tired of hearing about their genius

- Blade Runner
- 2001: A Space Odyssey
- Brazil

A slightly off-topic list of 7 favorite genre films (inspired by Empire's hashtag last year)

- The Road Warrior
- Memories of Murder
- Repo Man
- Alphaville
- The Last Unicorn
- The Lives of Others
- The Hills Have Eyes (1977)

[Skitch]

I never liked Brazil. And E.T. is awful. I really hated it the last time I watched it.

Otherwise, thumbs up!

[Dukefrukem]

Oh man I love these lists. Love the legit list.

Movies I now need to see:

- Fard (short)
- Cargo (short)
- Edge of Tomorrow

[Skitch]

Edge of Tomorrow was very cool.

[bac0n]

I'm curious, Duke, as to why you included Cabin in the Woods in the Intelligent Sci-Fi list. Sure, it's a great film, but I wouldn't call it sci-fi in the sense that Interstellar or Blade Runner is sci-fi...

[Melville]

https://letterboxd.com/dukefrukem/list/top-20-intelligent-sci-fi-films/
Nice list. I like the inclusion of Interstellar. Throw The Lobster in there too.

[Dukefrukem]

I'm curious, Duke, as to why you included Cabin in the Woods in the Intelligent Sci-Fi list. Sure, it's a great film, but I wouldn't call it sci-fi in the sense that Interstellar or Blade Runner is sci-fi...

I'm actually quite shocked this isn't labeled as sci-fi in IMBD. I mean, it's just as much sci-fi as it is Horror. There's a computer system capable of releasing monsters (man made monsters?) as well as creating an invisible shield around a location in the woods.

I may need to remove it if it's not considered a sci-fi genre.

[Skitch]

I'd say its sci-fi. Horror too, but definitely sci-fi.

[megladon8]

You know what was surprisingly decent?

The Signal

[Irish]

Bumping this to remind myself about "Soldier," and maybe "Death Note" (which really isn't sci-fi, but fuck it.)

Also, I tried to re-watch "Face Off" a couple of months back and couldn't get past the 20 minute mark. The style is so overdone and holy shit both Cage and Travolta chew every bit of scenery they possibly can, spit it out, and then chew the pulp.

[Dukefrukem]

So yes. Don't get me wrong. When Face/Off came out, I remember it being fairly competent. But it is so fucking cheesy. Broken Arrow is the better film.

Also this: http://matchcut.artboiled.com/showthread.php?5944-The-Top-18-MERICAN-90s-Action-Movies&p=540876&viewfull=1#post540876

and


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BONldMyFHtA

[Skitch]

Also, I tried to re-watch "Face Off" a couple of months back and couldn't get past the 20 minute mark. The style is so overdone and holy shit both Cage and Travolta chew every bit of scenery they possibly can, spit it out, and then chew the pulp.

That's why its so much fun! That movie is absolutely bananas.