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Peng
04-27-2016, 05:31 PM
http://i1377.photobucket.com/albums/ah73/barteks11/Marvel%20gifs/gFf77zEQdbo_zpsmlll0jec.jpg

Peng
04-27-2016, 05:52 PM
Non spoilery, and apologize in advance if it sounds too hyperbolic or something; I'm still off a bit of an exhilarated high from the film:

Apart from a motif of people getting their arms cut off throughout Phase 2, Marvel doubles down on The Empire Strikes Back reference by having a character cheekily mention that film by name during Civil War. But it earned that namedrop, in term of turning the story darker and more ambitious than any preceding Marvel film so far (save for maybe Age of Ultron) and shaking up the franchise a bit.

It might miss Whedon's touch of deeply interrogating/humanizing these characters, but it almost has to, and should, abandon that anyway in the context of this story. Whedon's two films explore the avengers' relationship to the outside world mostly grounded in their points of view, while this one lets many external forces seep in and question them quite a bit more. So being a franchise helps in this regard; they don't need to grow much here because the films feels like the culmination of various arcs and storylines, and how the characters as they are right now react to the issues brought up and forces threatening their standings.

Still, that will only be meaningful if the characters are well-established when facing this conflict. And this is a wonderful balance act; most characters get a chance to state and question themselves in this thorny matter; new characters are introduced and develop interactions with our main ones splendidly. The directors really allocate time and manage one's power in relation to each other really well. If nothing else, this can be viewed as the Russos' successful dry run for juggling a big cast, which will grow enormous in Infinity War.

But it feels more than something else to me as it races towards the endgame. The Russos still have a bit of trouble with close-quarter fights, as evidenced in the opening mission (I have felt since Winter Soldier that they thrive when they step back and need to use the screen's scale a bit). But the characters increasingly become the priority as the film goes along, and the directors seem to stage their fights clearer with much more impact accordingly.

As fun and exciting as the superhero mash-ups start out, once the focus becomes narrower, the fight takes on a(n even) darker, more emotional turn, truly testing our feeling to each side. And that's the film's biggest accomplishment for me: it builds and develop this 'war' organically. We don't want them to fight this fiercely, but knowing them, they can't avoid it. We don't want them to get too emotionally invested, but given the circumstances, they must. For all their faults, the MCU films have always remained absolutely true to their characters and their development, and Civil War has the biggest dividend to date from this approach.

Peng
04-27-2016, 06:01 PM
Ranking time! I have rewatched all of them over the past month, so some might notice that it's different from what I ranked in Ant-Man thread, where I had felt that film was my least favorite MCU film:

Captain America: Civil War (2016) - 8.5/10
The Avengers (2012) - 8.5/10
Avengers: Age of Ultron (2015) - 8/10
Guardians of the Galaxy (2014) - 8/10
Captain America: The Winter Soldier (2014) - 7.5/10
Thor (2011) - 7.5/10
Iron Man 3 (2013) - 7.5/10
Iron Man (2008) - 7.5/10
Captain America: The First Avenger (2011) - 7/10
Iron Man 2 (2010) - 6.5/10
Ant-Man (2015) - 6/10
The Incredible Hulk (2008) - 6/10
Thor: The Dark World (2013) - 5.5/10

Dukefrukem
04-27-2016, 06:24 PM
Great write up.

And your rankings look fine to me especially with the top 2 and bottom 2.

Henry Gale
04-27-2016, 06:31 PM
Damn, I really don't want to get unrealistically excited for this, but your thoughts (even when mentioning issues like Russo's often close-up-ridden action and this movie's opening fight, which from the clip I saw left me with exactly the same worry) on top of everyone else's exuberant praise have me hearing pretty much exactly what I want to, and left really happy that I already secured my Thursday night tickets. I just wish it was opening this weekend here like most of the rest of the world.

Even your rankings are pretty hard to argue with, even when they might not fall exactly the same as mine. Like, as much as the last Cap might be higher for you overall, you basically have with the same rating I do, so I feel like we're generally on the same page, just maybe I like some of the other movies more. Guardians is my #1 overall, but otherwise same top 6! (Minus my current unseen Civil War.) I'd probably only knock First Avenger and Incredible Hulk down a couple points each because they just never really worked for me (especially the dull, inconsequential latter that has recently has led me to defending Ang Lee's to people more often than I really have the energy for) and add +1 to Iron Man 2, Ant-Man and even Thor: The Dark World because I'm charitable like that.

Peng
05-02-2016, 01:46 PM
Just have time to return to this thread, and to counter off maybe raising too much expectation, I will raise up a few things that don't let me love it fully, ha.

- I do think it's my favorite Marvel in term of story (maybe Age of Ultron can rival if the running time doesn't require it to feel so rushed), but as you can see me giving it the same score as the first Avengers, I still miss Whedon's lively touch in dealing with multiple characters (I think I also prefer Gunn's), and wish it have a few more intimate character details.

- And as much as I liked Winter Soldier, the Russos' relatively grounded, almost serious style can tread the line on being dull for me at times. They're lucky that the story of Civil War is a match in gravitas for that tone, so it mostly works.

- OK, this might be veering into nitpicking and personal territory, since his screen time is on the thin, supporting side, but I was disappointed a bit with The Vision. As conceived in Age of Ultron (I didn't read the comics), he felt like a distinctly Whedon-esque creation of all the director's usual philosophical musings. I was really taken with that. I realize that couldn't translate well when handed off to another filmmaker, and we can chalk the change up to him spending time among the humans between Age of Ultron and Civil War, but here he feels a bit too... acclimated...for my taste, although by no means less strange.


Two final notes to leave off before waiting for US release so I can discuss it with you guys:
- Now looking forward to the Black Panther film the most in Phase 3, mostly on the strength of Chadwick Boseman's immense presence.
- To me, Robert Downey Jr. gives his MCU-best performance here. (Iron Man 3 is a more well-rounded showcase, but this lets him have some really meatier stuff to play off).

Morris Schæffer
05-02-2016, 03:59 PM
I have seen it also. It should come as no surprise that it is a hugely satisfying crowdpleaser. It's very funny and that extends to the action scenes also which are funny, exuberant and at times utterly ingenious. No, pulse-pounding isn't really the right word I suppose, but what Marvel movie is?

I think the film has a small-ish problem regarding its conflict and that is that I couldn't quite buy one side of the conflict. Won't say whose. Therefore, I felt it was less about ideoglogy and more about "Hey I'm just gonna be stubborn cuz we're supposed to fight each other!!"

There are times when the conflict seems to reach a fever pitch, you can sense immense darkness creeping up on the principal players, enveloping them, but I don't think the film truly follows through with that.

Especially dissapointing given the immense revelation disclosed towards the finale, which was a great scene, uncharacteristically so for a Marvel film.

Think of a schoolyard fight that erupted because of something really trivial, but you were young and so you fought. Then, at the end, you're both grounded, the teacher or principal asks you to shake hands and hey it's all cool. Well, almost.

No, rest easy that Civil War isn't quite like that, but it does make the title sound a little pompous, a little overcooked. The film seems determined to not become The Empire Strikes Back of Marvel movies and I'm seeing this as a missed opportunity. I felt they should have taken it further.

Really though, these are my expectations. I shall forever be waiting for The Dark Knight of the Marvel universe. I would still say go in with confidence and see probably one of the most fun films of the years.

Morris Schæffer
05-04-2016, 10:59 AM
At one point Steve is called away from a massively important discussion and the abrupt, no-nonsense way in which he does that, coupled with the actual reason for him leaving may be the most powerful moment of the entire movie.

transmogrifier
05-05-2016, 07:47 AM
Long, predictable, and curiously low stakes for what is supposed to be such a gut-punching storyline. Just stuffed with things and people and big speeches about boring things, it unsuccessfully tries to marry the light ensemble comedy of the Avengers movies with the more serious-minded Cap films, and it just comes out the other side as a lumpy heap of Things That Happen.

transmogrifier
05-05-2016, 07:50 AM
At one point Steve is called away from a massively important discussion and the abrupt, no-nonsense way in which he does that, coupled with the actual reason for him leaving may be the most powerful moment of the entire movie.

I don't get this; it's how a million previous action films have transitioned in and out of scenes. And it's a rather perfunctory end to an important character (to Cap) to be made into An Import Incident that drives the plot along.

The only spark of life is when Spider-Man and Antman are on hand.

Morris Schæffer
05-05-2016, 10:02 AM
I don't get this; it's how a million previous action films have transitioned in and out of scenes. And it's a rather perfunctory end to an important character (to Cap) to be made into An Import Incident that drives the plot along.

The only spark of life is when Spider-Man and Antman are on hand.

there's a history there between both characters that spans decades, a bond steve could never have with any of the other characters. It's not about the transition, but the way it occurs that moved me. And i'm currently watching agent carter season 2 so i totally did not see this small-scale drama coming amidst all the big issues and action scenes. And i like peggy and hayley atwell sooo much. She's gorgeous, vital, energetic and now she was gone. So i would not call it perfunctory. It came out of nowhere, but sadly enough, that's how someone's passing away often occurs.

transmogrifier
05-05-2016, 01:34 PM
Another thing that increasingly annoys me about these movies: The Scarlet Witch and The Vision. Or more precisely, how they are used as convenient within-battle deus ex machina interventions when someone is in trouble, and then disappearing from the battle for a while, despite being the two most powerful characters by far.

Morris Schæffer
05-05-2016, 03:00 PM
Another thing that increasingly annoys me about these movies: The Scarlet Witch and The Vision. Or more precisely, how they are used as convenient within-battle deus ex machina interventions when someone is in trouble, and then disappearing from the battle for a while, despite being the two most powerful characters by far.

Nearly all reviews seem to be saying that one of the film's strenghts is that despite the overload of characters, the directors and writers have done a bang-up job juggling them and giving each their memorable time in the spotlight. Perhaps that's your answer. The only way for this to have worked is for some characters to literally dissapear for a while. :)

Dukefrukem
05-06-2016, 03:11 AM
My favorite comic book movie of all time. May be the best action movie I've ever seen.

The airport scene, just perfect.

Starts off remarkably slow. Every scene with Spider-man re-energized me.

The Bucky Killed Stark Sr felt a little bit forced and reminded me of the Sandman/Spider-man conflict.

Dukefrukem
05-06-2016, 03:13 AM
1. Captain America: Civil War
2. Captain America: The Winter Soldier
3. The Avengers
4. Guardians of the Galaxy
5. Ant-Man
6. Avengers: Age of Ultron
7. Iron Man
8. Iron Man 3
9. Thor
10. Captain America: The First Avenger
11. The Incredible Hulk
12. Iron Man 2
13. Thor: The Dark World

Dukefrukem
05-06-2016, 03:19 AM
It's unbelievable to me how many fight scenes were in the trailer, and how many fight scenes remain hidden until the movie. There was so much more to gawk over. Total opposite of Batman v Superman.

Henry Gale
05-06-2016, 03:57 AM
It is really good, in the sense that it very compellingly does the things that are to the expected and then moves ahead to do exactly the new things it promises to too (at least, within reason / lack of major consequences). And when it ends, I couldn't help but feel like, "Oh, I guess that's it." despite having mildly loved everything that it delivered before that.

There is no element (and there are many) that stands out as not working or holding up its ends of the bargain here, it's just that I'm left wishing they were a part of a new formula, particularly one that isn't so content with keeping itself at something of a storytelling status quo. The needle moves, but then it falls right back. And that's not to say my heart didn't pump with it almost every step of the way, it's just that it became somewhat deflating when I realized that its third act would ultimately go exactly the way it did, particularly with the movie's "big twist" The curse of superhero mommy issues continue! I mean, Boseman is very solid in a role that if it weren't for his family ties could've been swapped out for any other already-developed character. Holland's Peter Parker and Spider-Man are totally charming and amiable and exciting and his presence lifts the movie's energy for a while aaaaand why does he actually need to be here again? Oh right, his own movie comes out next year, which Tony will also be a part of.

Again, I do want to stress that I do really like the movie. It has more interesting thematic ideas and executed pathos than arguably anything else they've done, and the action (when it's not terribly closely shot or overly cut) is awesome throughout, and I was particularly absolutely enraptured by it for the first third or so, emotionally on edge with it and even choked up at least once, but after that point it starts to stray off more into individual threads that thin out both in their necessity and stakes, so by the time they come back together they don't feel like they'll actually result in anything that'll pay off the sort of danger of real, foundational change for the series it provides the possibility for in your imagination for the storytelling. Maybe it's just Markus & McFeely's approach to writing endings, as all three of their Captain America movies have ended with a shrug. (Less so each time, but still.)

Regarding Crossbones: You thought Cap was in any actual danger of being killed by the character who delivered the blow in the comic of this movie's namesake?!! Hahaha, yeah OK! Nah, he'll be killed in the first 15 minutes as a red herring and a not-entirely-necessary catalyst for the movies other events. I mean, New York, D.C. and Sokovia are still there to pull from, and Vienna would've still followed (even if the T'Challa elements him and his father were there because of the explosion being in Lagos, but again, I didn't think Panther was all that necessary here either). If Grillo's Crossbones had been somehow integrated with Zemo's storyline, whether or not it resulted in a major hero death, much more tension could've kept going.

Anyway, it's as good as these movies have ever been.** I'm just not sure if that's enough anymore. But as a series, they're like the Iron Man suit, they might look a little different, have a few more features, go through some serious wear and tear, but at the end of the day, there will be a new, shinier one the next time around. Nothing to worry about. And I don't worry about Marvel Studios' output staying at this level either, but are consistent 7 to 8 out of 10's all that exciting after a while if it feels like they'll never go any higher?

**Aside from Guardians, which still remains my #1 here. Even if it draws within similar lines, it does so with enough different colours and tools to stand on its own.)

See it, enjoy it, because it's easy to do both, just don't expect it to change your life in any major way, or anyone's on-screen for that matter.

transmogrifier
05-06-2016, 04:58 AM
My favorite comic book movie of all time. May be the best action movie I've ever seen.
.

We saw different movies. To me, the action scenes were clumsy and poorly staged. The airport scene was totally stakes free seeing as it kept on reminding the audience that they weren't "really" fighting for keeps. The whole friendly fire thing was even more of a cop out.

I was actively bored by a lot of it. And I thought Winter Soldier was very good.

TGM
05-06-2016, 06:33 AM
Okay, I wasn't a fan of The Winter Soldier, or the past number of Marvel releases for that matter, so I went in with reserved expectations. However, I gotta say, the Russos won me over completely with this one. Captain America: Civil War was absolutely fantastic!! Quite possibly the best Marvel outing yet. Despite everything that's going on, it's completely coherent, the ensemble is very well balanced, and there's no extraneous plots or scenes to be seen.

And while I'm sure many will cite the airport battle with all the heroes fighting one another as the highlight (and it's certainly one of the more fun action sequences we've had), I personally think that the final encounter of Iron Man vs. Cap and the Winter Soldier is the series' best yet. The sheer raw emotion on display in that fight is off the charts! And that's part of what really makes this one work and elevates it so high up above the rest, much like Guardians of the Galaxy, Civil War is a very emotional experience. I just loved this thing, and it was pretty damn perfect all around. In fact, my one single nitpick would be the odd choice to use comically large text as a means to signify where they are, which honestly did take me out of the movie each time and felt unnecessary. But again, what a huge nitpick that is to an otherwise pretty much flawless movie.

Okay, I am also curious as to exactly how Tony figured out Spider-Man's secret identity, and that question was bugging me during their entire introductory scene, but still, not that huge a deal!

So yeah, this one was a huge win for me, and I now suddenly feel very confident with the Russos at the helm going into the next Avengers movies. And on another note, I just gotta say that after Civil War, DC has gotta feel absolutely ashamed for what they did with Batman v Superman, and I say that even as someone who liked that movie! Though it is interesting how our heroes' mothers played a significant role in both flicks, in BvS acting as the thing that brought them together, but here acting as the trigger than almost completely pulls them apart. Huh. :P

Morris Schæffer
05-06-2016, 06:54 AM
My favorite comic book movie of all time. May be the best action movie I've ever seen.

As per your second sentence, That's a huuuuge claim mere days after making fun of davis and his blanket statements. ;)

like Trans has said, I don't think the stakes feel high enough to justify the destruction of half an airport. There are a lot of great action movies out there, and most of them are grounded in reality. It makes it easier to care for me when you've got a lone cop fighting off a dozen "who-said-we-were-terrorists" because it's more relatable, it's a more human story. With this sort of property, the screen becomes ablaze with explosions, laser beams, missiles, debris, quips that it threatens, and actually sort of does, divert our attention away from the actual reason why they're battlin' each other in the first place. That said, I can get behind best action scene in a comicbook movie ever. Because it really is very good, as I said a few days ago.

Watashi
05-06-2016, 09:43 AM
I came into the movie being on Team Cap. I left the movie being on Team Aunt May.

Dukefrukem
05-06-2016, 11:02 AM
As per your second sentence, That's a huuuuge claim mere days after making fun of davis and his blanket statements. ;)

like Trans has said, I don't think the stakes feel high enough to justify the destruction of half an airport. There are a lot of great action movies out there, and most of them are grounded in reality. It makes it easier to care for me when you've got a lone cop fighting off a dozen "who-said-we-were-terrorists" because it's more relatable, it's a more human story. With this sort of property, the screen becomes ablaze with explosions, laser beams, missiles, debris, quips that it threatens, and actually sort of does, divert our attention away from the actual reason why they're battlin' each other in the first place. That said, I can get behind best action scene in a comicbook movie ever. Because it really is very good, as I said a few days ago.

I'm not so sure it is. There's so much going on in some of these fight scenes that it's hard to put into words. Even the quick fights, like when Bucky get's activated: You have four different styles of fighters, Tony, Agent 13, Panther and Widow, all well balanced and relentless; and that's just one of the small battles. The Russo's just GET close combat action and it looks gorgeous on screen. I can't remember the last time I was WOWed by fight scenes like this. Maybe the RAID?

Dukefrukem
05-06-2016, 11:34 AM
Another thing i just noticed, which may or may not be such a shock to everyone.

Cap won! Opposite outcome in the comics. I realize it's a Cap movie, but I was half expecting Cap to kinda realize the the ways of Tony here. I guess it would be hard to bring this movie to closure if Tony won but... I really liked the finale battle/wrap there.

Also, William Hurt underused. Was hoping he would find some of the super soldier serum or something. :cool:

Peng
05-06-2016, 12:57 PM
Watched this a second time because my father wanted to go. Feeling the emotional weight more acutely throughout this time, although still the same reaction to its directors: I wish they would be more distinctive visually. Great traffic conductor, less so on memorable directorial flows. They did the airport scene great in term of pure rush though (although having more touches -- something like Whedon's 'splash-page' long take -- would make it an unquestionable all-timer, instead of in the contentions). And they did make an exception with the most important scene: that final fight. It was like they suddenly realized the gravitas of the situation and wanted to do right by the scene; the color, framing, and flow becomes more cinematic, even including a comic-sensibility, memorably eye-catching shot (https://jediyuth.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/captain-america-civil-war-reaction.jpg)! (Though seen from the opposite side in the actual film and done in a brief but thrilling slo-mo) Really though, even with all the quibbles (including the crucial part that are its directors) this still remains my favorite Marvel because I really love this story, which also does right by the characters I have become really attached to.

Morris Schæffer
05-06-2016, 01:16 PM
I'm not so sure it is. There's so much going on in some of these fight scenes that it's hard to put into words. Even the quick fights, like when Bucky get's activated: You have four different styles of fighters, Tony, Agent 13, Panther and Widow, all well balanced and relentless; and that's just one of the small battles. The Russo's just GET close combat action and it looks gorgeous on screen. I can't remember the last time I was WOWed by fight scenes like this. Maybe the RAID?

I thought the close combat was decent like that staircase fight. Still quite inferior to a very similar fight in Daredevil season 2. The airport scene was much more coherent, but that hardly classifies as "close combat." Generally speaking, good fight scenes are hard to come by these days, but I don't wanna get too defensive here. I did think the action was very, very good.

That said, no one seems to be hitting anyone in these movies during close quarter fights. I don't feel the pain, I just hear persuasive sound effects informing me that, apparently, someone was hit hard.

Morris Schæffer
05-06-2016, 01:26 PM
This is your ranking Duke. My red number is mine. Probably.

1. Captain America: Civil War 3
2. Captain America: The Winter Soldier 2
3. The Avengers 1
4. Avengers: Age of Ultron 7
5. Guardians of the Galaxy 6
6. Ant-Man (will probably drop to 6 after it sinks in) 4
7. Iron Man 10
8. Iron Man 3 9
9. Thor 12
10. Captain America: The First Avenger 5
11. The Incredible Hulk 8
12. Iron Man 2 11
13. Thor: The Dark World 13

Dukefrukem
05-06-2016, 02:09 PM
I thought the close combat was decent like that staircase fight. Still quite inferior to a very similar fight in Daredevil season 2.

100% disagree. Daredevil fight felt very standardly choreographed. Ho hum.

The staircase fight, although was very heavily edited, was paced so quick, and had so many things I had never seen before in a fight, that it absolutely blew me out of the water.

Dukefrukem
05-06-2016, 02:16 PM
This is your ranking Duke. My red number is mine. Probably.

1. Captain America: Civil War 3
2. Captain America: The Winter Soldier 2
3. The Avengers 1
4. Avengers: Age of Ultron 7
5. Guardians of the Galaxy 6
6. Ant-Man (will probably drop to 6 after it sinks in) 4
7. Iron Man 10
8. Iron Man 3 9
9. Thor 12
10. Captain America: The First Avenger 5
11. The Incredible Hulk 8
12. Iron Man 2 11
13. Thor: The Dark World 13

So that list was a copy/paste from the Ant-Man thread.

I forgot that I had moved things around after. This is the updated list.

1. Captain America: Civil War 3
2. Captain America: The Winter Soldier 2
3. The Avengers 1
4. Guardians of the Galaxy 6
5. Ant-Man 4
6. Avengers: Age of Ultron 7
7. Iron Man 10
8. Iron Man 3 9
9. Thor 12
10. Captain America: The First Avenger 5
11. The Incredible Hulk 8
12. Iron Man 2 11
13. Thor: The Dark World 13[/QUOTE]

Morris Schæffer
05-06-2016, 02:43 PM
100% disagree. Daredevil fight felt very standardly choreographed. Ho hum.

The staircase fight, although was very heavily edited, was paced so quick, and had so many things I had never seen before in a fight, that it absolutely blew me out of the water.

It was indeed more intricate in CA: CV which may have made it more challenging to get right. They certainly didn't fuck it up. It's just that in Daredevil every punch and kick and tumble felt way more painful and impactful. True, it's a hardcore R rated show whereas CA:CW is not which means I'm not being entirely fair I suppose, but people in the Marvel movies just keep getting up as if nothing's happened. The finale was a lot better in that regard. One of the guys looked like he was hurtin'. :D

transmogrifier
05-06-2016, 03:33 PM
Great:

Good:

Guardians of the Galaxy
Iron Man 3
Deadpool
Antman
The Avengers
Captain America: Winter Soldier

Okay:
Captain America: The First Avenger

Meh:
Iron Man
Captain America: Civil War
Iron Man 2
The Avengers 2
The Incredible Hulk

Bad:
Thor

Dukefrukem
05-06-2016, 03:36 PM
Why is Deadpool on your list? Just for perspective? I'm surprised you have Iron Man 2 in the Meh and not Bad camp.

Dukefrukem
05-06-2016, 03:45 PM
Regarding Crossbones: You thought Cap was in any actual danger of being killed by the character who delivered the blow in the comic of this movie's namesake?!! Hahaha, yeah OK! Nah, he'll be killed in the first 15 minutes as a red herring and a not-entirely-necessary catalyst for the movies other events. I mean, New York, D.C. and Sokovia are still there to pull from, and Vienna would've still followed (even if the T'Challa elements him and his father were there because of the explosion being in Lagos, but again, I didn't think Panther was all that necessary here either). If Grillo's Crossbones had been somehow integrated with Zemo's storyline, whether or not it resulted in a major hero death, much more tension could've kept going.


Been thinking about this and I agree. I think not only would create better stakes, but also would have more of an emotional attachment if say: Warmachine Died- There were audible gasps in my theater as he hit the ground.

A teamup of Zemo and Crossbones would have been well suited, especially since it's obvious Zemo is the mastermind and Crossbones is the grunt. Why not make Zemo part of Hydra? I dont understand this non-move.

TGM
05-06-2016, 06:09 PM
Mind you, I'm not dead set on the placement of the top 2 just yet, as they very easily could be swapped with one another, but otherwise...

Outstanding
Captain America: Civil War
Guardians of the Galaxy

Great
Iron Man 3
The Avengers

Good
Thor: The Dark World
Captain America: The First Avenger
Iron Man

Okay
The Incredible Hulk
Thor
Avengers: Age of Ultron

Meh
Captain America: The Winter Soldier
Ant-Man

Bad
Iron Man 2

TGM
05-06-2016, 06:29 PM
Completely irrelevant note, but it's become increasingly impossible to predict what opening night crowd turnout will look like in my town anymore. For instance, Deadpool and Batman v Superman? Almost complete sell outs. However, Star Wars and now Civil War last night? Yeah, the theater wasn't even 1/3 full. :\

Morris Schæffer
05-06-2016, 08:22 PM
How does someone put Winter Soldier at meh and civil war at the top tier of Marvel movies? I'm not deriding you, I'm sure you have your reasons, but I honestly don't get that.

TGM
05-06-2016, 11:19 PM
How does someone put Winter Soldier at meh and civil war at the top tier of Marvel movies? I'm not deriding you, I'm sure you have your reasons, but I honestly don't get that.

Civil War corrected most of the issues I had with Winter Soldier, and was just an overall much more solid and far more satisfying an experience. The writing was better, the pacing was better, the action was significantly improved upon, and as I mentioned in my previous post, unlike most Marvel flicks, Civil War actually has a strong emotional element that propels it above all the rest as well.

transmogrifier
05-06-2016, 11:34 PM
The writing was better, the pacing was better, the action was significantly improved upon, and as I mentioned in my previous post, unlike most Marvel flicks, Civil War actually has a strong emotional element that propels it above all the rest as well.

I disagree with every single one of those points.

And with that, my discussion of Civil War comes to an end.

number8
05-07-2016, 08:23 PM
This might be the most serialized and least standalone entry out of all these Marvel movies so far. The entire thing plays like the second act of a larger movie. You had to know all the setups going in, and it ends right as they've finally ratcheted up the stakes. It's paced well, but very awkwardly structured. I also found Spider-Man's inclusion really shoehorned (thankfully not the case with Black Panther). I think it was a mistake making this a Civil War movie with all these Avengers arbitrarily involved. The way the story unfolds, it really would have been much more effective if it had been a revenge story between Cap and Iron Man only.

The shield throwing in this movie is fucking on point, though.

Milky Joe
05-08-2016, 12:53 AM
Yeah, it wasn't really much of a war, was it? More like a civil skirmish.

As a pulse-pounding action movie, I thought it was awesome. Great momentum from the start, excellent fighting, funny in the right places, et cetera. But it didn't have anywhere close to the epic stakes of Winter Soldier or the other really good MCU films. There were no world-colliding conflagrations, no cities falling from the sky. It was just two dudes beefin'. I'm cool with that.

Bring on Doctor Strange.

megladon8
05-09-2016, 07:09 AM
I read that apparently the John Wick dudes worked on some of the action here. Does it show?

Morris Schæffer
05-09-2016, 10:36 AM
I read that apparently the John Wick dudes worked on some of the action here. Does it show?

Ha. I noticed their names in the end credits. I'm not sure it shows other than that the action is really good!

Dukefrukem
05-09-2016, 11:48 AM
I keep thinking about that Hallway escape/fight. Such a great blend of action and humor.

number8
05-09-2016, 03:28 PM
My previous post reads like I didn't like the movie. I did, just not as much as Winter Soldier. Here are 3 things I really, really loved, though:

1. The shield throwing. I mentioned this already. But that opening in Lagos. That whole sequence just made this Cap fanboy melt.

2. The use of Bucky in this premise. I still think the Civil War elements are undercooked and rather forgotten quickly, but if we're to buy into it as it's set up here, they didn't give Cap enough convincing arguments for his perspective versus Tony's, who is given so much emotional motive (certainly more than the comic it's based on did). So having the Bucky story really helps level the argument, and it's relatively subtle too, because I don't remember them directly commenting on the fact that Winter Soldier and his Soviet-programmed brain is precisely why Cap thinks it's a bad idea to have super-powered people working for a government. They just kinda leave you to it. They also didn't verbally confront Tony with the weight of the fact that his parents were murdered because of the very thing he was similarly pushing for, but you see that realization dawning on him.

3. The use of that famous speech (http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p388/proteus_lives/Scan10963.jpg) but more importantly the way they used it. I love the speech, but there's an entire context behind it in the actual issue involving Peter Parker's doubt and a Mark Twain anecdote that gets lost when you're just seeing that part floating around the internet. By itself, it does make Cap sound like an unthinking fundamentalist, and if he says it in the movie, you risk that perception for the character. The way the movie adapts it is brilliant, by making it about Peggy Carter talking about being a woman in a man's world. The lesson is still there, but the context is immensely better. That funeral scene is one of my favorite examples of preserving the core of adapting a text while changing it entirely.

Henry Gale
05-10-2016, 07:42 AM
2. The use of Bucky in this premise. I still think the Civil War elements are undercooked and rather forgotten quickly, but if we're to buy into it as it's set up here, they didn't give Cap enough convincing arguments for his perspective versus Tony's, who is given so much emotional motive (certainly more than the comic it's based on did). So having the Bucky story really helps level the argument, and it's relatively subtle too, because I don't remember them directly commenting on the fact that Winter Soldier and his Soviet-programmed brain is precisely why Cap thinks it's a bad idea to have super-powered people working for a government. They just kinda leave you to it. They also didn't verbally confront Tony with the weight of the fact that his parents were murdered because of the very thing he was similarly pushing for, but you see that realization dawning on him.

See, this is an element I really wish the film leaned heavier on. It's one of those ideas that didn't really cross my mind until well after it ended, and you articulated even more perfectly here. So much juicy there that it doesn't squeeze for all it's worth. However on-the-nose it might've been to simply spell out in dialogue, I'm not sure I go to these movies for their subtlety.

Similarly, I think the ending moves so fast after Steve drops the shield that it's tough for the weight of everything that's happened to properly sink in and feed into Zemo's final statement of satisfaction. We hear Steve's hand-extending message to Tony, see him break out the remainder of the team without his Cap garb, and then we instantly get the "Directed by.." credit. But Rogers' act of prison breaking is played pretty upliftingly, and the fact that those team members are now essentially among the world's most wanted who can't even show their faces to the public anymore, let alone be there to protect it; that almost doesn't emotionally play like it should in the moment.

Maybe it's just a personal taste thing, but I really wanted to feel the anguish and the hopelessness of the current situation instead of having it all quickly wrapping up and then thinking "Oh no, what's next for them?!"... instantly remembering the next time we'd see the majority of these characters would be in a movie with "Avengers" in its title anyway.

I even wish there had been one more scene with Stark speaking with Ross about the Sokovia Accords at the end since it's such a major plot thread that might not get addressed ever again. Something (anything) along the lines of not having to worry about the other Avengers signing it if the Avengers are essentially no more. Plus it'd give one more chance to really zero in on the conflicted emotions of that reality for Stark, now left alone, with his emotionally broken, post-traumatic state, having let the event we see him think he's made something close to peace with at the beginning -- the death of his parents left, the hole that's left, and him doing everything in his technological and monetary power to try to make amends with it-- be the same thing that came back to distance him from everyone else (except Rhodey and Spidey, I guess) and leave him even more alone. Now that's a haunting lingering note for the movie to go out on with him.

Morris Schæffer
05-10-2016, 10:59 AM
http://www.empireonline.com/movies/features/captain-america-civil-war-secrets/

12 secrets from the movie.

Wryan
05-10-2016, 01:11 PM
I had a blast, though I agree WS was better overall. This feels frenetic occasionally to its detriment. Lots of bodies and limbs flying through the air (not always entirely convincingly rendered) and lots of bombs going off. Loved Spiderman/liked Holland. Loved Black Panther/loved Boseman. Better Avengers movie than Ultron, for sure. Feels a bit overstuffed with business. Got a good laugh out of Cleveland getting such a big title card with other fine international cities. That double smile in the car, though cliched, was executed flawlessly and got a big response. Some people's motivations for picking a side seemed flimsy or too lightly drawn.

I really like the Steve/Bucky dynamic, so I'm probably more forgiving than if I didn't.

EDIT: Also, a delicious little role for Alfre Woodard, the kind of thing she can knock out of the park with ease. Also also, T'Challa's father was the guide dude from The Ghost and the Darkness. I knew I knew him from somewhere. Damn, this thing was just packed with acting talent.

number8
05-10-2016, 01:44 PM
Speaking of cities, I assume this didn't happen anywhere else, but my crowd went crazy for the "Where you from, kid?" "Queens." "Brooklyn." exchange. It probably got a bigger cheer than anything else in the movie. That put a huge smile on my face.

Dukefrukem
05-10-2016, 01:49 PM
Speaking of cities, I assume this didn't happen anywhere else, but my crowd went crazy for the "Where you from, kid?" "Queens." "Brooklyn." exchange. It probably got a bigger cheer than anything else in the movie. That put a huge smile on my face.

Biggest cheer in my theater was Spider-man.

2nd biggest audible gasp was when War-machine hit the ground. My father was even like..."Oh my god". I'm thinking to myself, "wow, it took 12 movies for him to get into it." Heh.

Milky Joe
05-10-2016, 03:59 PM
I wanna know what Hank Pym thinks about Lang teaming up with the Avengers. Look where it got him!

number8
05-10-2016, 04:13 PM
"Hank Pym always said you can never trust a Stark."
"Who are you?"
"Come on, man."

Milky Joe
05-10-2016, 04:49 PM
Paul Rudd is just the best.

[ETM]
05-10-2016, 09:13 PM
a lumpy heap of Things That Happen.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

number8
05-11-2016, 08:57 PM
I don't know why this is so funny.

https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13173651_10100343415624284_446 8303890769861504_n.jpg?oh=ba03 beb9d1ed41b926b16fd5aab2505f&oe=579CB780

Acapelli
05-12-2016, 01:06 AM
Speaking of cities, I assume this didn't happen anywhere else, but my crowd went crazy for the "Where you from, kid?" "Queens." "Brooklyn." exchange. It probably got a bigger cheer than anything else in the movie. That put a huge smile on my face.
happened where i saw it too, but of course i saw it in brooklyn

Mara
05-13-2016, 01:20 PM
Loved this, really fun, surprisingly emotionally effective, etc.

But for the record Cap has zero chemistry with his ex-girlfriend's niece which is probably for the best, because what. Let's quietly drop that thread, okay?

Henry Gale
05-13-2016, 06:36 PM
But for the record Cap has zero chemistry with his ex-girlfriend's niece which is probably for the best, because what. Let's quietly drop that thread, okay?

I really liked things like their flirty hallway interaction in Winter Soldier, but yeah, something was definitely missing this time around.

Their kiss did cause one of the funniest moments in the movie with its onlookers though.

Mara
05-13-2016, 06:42 PM
Their kiss did cause one of the funniest moments in the movie with its onlookers though.

Some of the best visual and verbal gags of the film was with those three huge men in that tiny little car.

Yeah, the chemistry was off for the love sub-sub-sub-plot. Tony had better chemistry with his own thinking-of-Pepper face than those two. It's like they tore through some dialogue and then realized simultaneously that the script said to kiss now, then thought "Well, okay, that's out of nowhere but dammit I'm a professional" and went for it.

number8
05-13-2016, 06:49 PM
The cutaway joke to Bucky and Falcon almost didn't work for me because of how awkward that kiss was. Still pretty funny, though.

Dukefrukem
05-13-2016, 06:55 PM
I liked how awkward it was. Showed that Cap is still kind of a dork.

Mara
05-13-2016, 10:21 PM
I just got RIGHT NOW that Cap literally broke Tony's heart.

:(

number8
05-14-2016, 04:06 PM
Glen Weldon from the Pop Culture Happy Hour podcast made the hilarious comment in their latest ep that the kiss was so out of nowhere that you could feel the meeting where Hollywood execs are sweating bullets and going, "Hey, uh, there's a lot of really longing looks between Cap and Bucky in this movie. Can we, like, jam his face in some woman's face and just mush it in there somewhere?"

Irish
05-15-2016, 01:57 AM
Voted "yay" even though most of this movie is a huge clusterfuck.

Watashi
05-15-2016, 07:03 AM
Lol at Daniel Bruhl as a total nobody.

[ETM]
05-15-2016, 10:30 AM
Lol at Daniel Bruhl as a total nobody.

Lol at pretty much all of it.

Morris Schæffer
05-15-2016, 11:03 AM
No worries irish. I'm with you. I had mostly the same issues. Number 8 sort of mimicked some of yours when he said that perhaps the movie would have been more focused if it had been captain vs iron man and no one else. Its spectacle is epic, but I honestly stopped caring about why this was happening in the first place.

Edit: but i do think winter soldier was the opposite and got its themes across just fine.

Gizmo
05-15-2016, 12:38 PM
Voted "yay" even though most of this movie is a huge clusterfuck.

- I kept waiting for Cap to deliver a single line that would perfectly sum up his position. Ya know, something I could believe in and get behind. Like in Winter Soldier when he tells Nick Fury, "You're holding a gun to the world's head." Or in Ultron when he tells Tony that "every time somebody tries to stop a war before it starts, innocent people die." But it never happens.

- Cap's position isn't clearly laid out. This makes the big airport fight rootless. It also makes the idea of anybody choosing a "side" feel perfunctory. Why was anybody with Cap? I couldn't tell.

- The biggest laugh in the movie, for me, is when the US Secretary of State proposes a team of mostly US citizens bend a knee to the United Nations. That's how you know we're operating in a realm of pure fantasy. Second biggest: That Captain America's position could mostly be boiled down to "Yeah, fuck the UN."

- It felt like there were too many protagonists and simultaneously none at all. This movie could have just as easily been called Iron Man 4 or Avengers 3. At times, it certainly seems like this is just as much Tony's story as it is Steve's (or even T'Challa's). This is the first blockbuster movie I've seen where the supposed lead plays more as a supporting character. (After Winter Soldier and now Civil War, it's pretty clear that Disney doesn't trust Chris Evans at all.)

- I liked all the themes and subtext -- where does the Avenger's authority come from, anyway? And how much responsibility do they hold? -- but this movie, like Winter Soldier, brushes up against big ideas and doesn't explore them, much less resolve them. The way the action contradicted those themes was particularly gutless, though. Scarlett Witch accidentally causes collateral damage. Vision accidentally injures War Machine. Bucky killed people, but he was brainwashed at the time, so no harm no foul? So much for personal "responsibility" and everything the movie tries to say in the dialogue.

- Holy shit, why did it take two and a half hours to pay off on Zillo/Zima/Brillo/Obscure-Russian-Guy's plot? I mean, that was a good story at the end and all but Jesus. And why did they get Alfre Woodard to perform a 20 second monologue, but fill that role, the narratively crucial role, with a total nobody?

- Meanwhile: This was hands down the best performance I've seen Downey give in the last decade. Nearly every big emotional beat comes off because of him. It also unintentionally causes a problem, because what's the movie's title again?

- T'Challa and Spider-man were cool but holy shit Marvel needs to stop insert full blown ads into its movies. Yeah, we get it. There will be more of these. Kinda got that clue after the first dozen sequels and spin-offs. You don't have to keep reminding us.

I think I agree with most of this, but I don't know the characters well enough to be sure. I haven't even seen Ultron or Winter Soldier yet, because I really don't care that much and am not a fan of comic book movies. So in part it was interesting enough where I could follow the story and all the characters, but also it was a bit isolating trying to watch it as a stand-alone film (which, it isn't, neccessarily, but could at least pander a bit to that crowd). Better than the Batman v Superman mess, which says a lot, because I do enjoy the bat.

number8
05-15-2016, 01:31 PM
Bucky killed people, but he was brainwashed at the time, so no harm no foul? So much for personal "responsibility" and everything the movie tries to say in the dialogue.

What really cemented my belief that they're no longer adhering to a normal story structure that makes sense was seeing the emotional consequence of this particular plot point, the one that the movie should be all about, play out in an after credits scene.

ledfloyd
05-15-2016, 05:24 PM
Yeah. I agree with most of your criticisms Irish, while still enjoying the film. The only thing I disagree with is I thought T'Challa was well integrated into the film. Spider Man, however, had no place here.

Milky Joe
05-15-2016, 08:37 PM
- The biggest laugh in the movie, for me, is when the US Secretary of State proposes a team of mostly US citizens bend a knee to the United Nations. That's how you know we're operating in a realm of pure fantasy. Second biggest: That Captain America's position could mostly be boiled down to "Yeah, fuck the UN."

Wait, why is this a fantasy? I thought we knew it was a realm of pure fantasy cuz we were watching a man in a flying metal suit shoot laser beams at another guy who grew 100 times his size. "Fuck the UN" is a pretty damn good reason, IMO.


It felt like there were too many protagonists and simultaneously none at all. This movie could have just as easily been called Iron Man 4 or Avengers 3. At times, it certainly seems like this is just as much Tony's story as it is Steve's (or even T'Challa's). This is the first blockbuster movie I've seen where the supposed lead plays more as a supporting character. (After Winter Soldier and now Civil War, it's pretty clear that Disney doesn't trust Chris Evans at all.)

Why doesn't Disney trust Chris Evans? I very much doubt that. But yeah, this was more of a prologue to Infinity War than a standalone Cap movie.

transmogrifier
05-15-2016, 11:19 PM
What really cemented my belief that they're no longer adhering to a normal story structure that makes sense was seeing the emotional consequence of this particular plot point, the one that the movie should be all about, play out in an after credits scene.

Good point. It was really a ridiculous decision to relegate it to a place where half the theater didn't even see it.

megladon8
05-17-2016, 09:10 PM
This was fun but definitely enjoyed The Winter Soldiet more.

Very confused why Black Panther had to be CGI most of the time, even in non-action scenes.

Loved Spider-Man. Had some great lines. My favorite of which was his quip on Cap's shield - "that thing doesn't obey the laws of physics at all!"

number8
05-17-2016, 09:18 PM
Very confused why Black Panther had to be CGI most of the time, even in non-action scenes.

Wha...? He was not CGI even in the action scenes. Or is this referring to something specific?

http://www.ooyuz.com/images/2015/7/14/1439581701827.jpg

http://screenrant.com/wp-content/uploads/Captain-America-Civil-War-set-photos-Captain-America-and-Black-Panther.jpg

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/films/2016/04/25/civil-war-CULTURE-large_trans++Rp36Ti1MFCYr8PMuS 2fHb17hoDUspm84EYl8tHPMRlk.jpg

megladon8
05-17-2016, 09:25 PM
Weird. I thought he looked very CGI. I'll show Jen the pics too because we were both talking about how he seemed off.

Oh and I'm glad there's now a mini internet phenomenon about how Sebastoan Stan looks like ESB-era Mark Hamill. It's all I can see, and I thought I was the only one.

Henry Gale
05-17-2016, 09:59 PM
They definitely enhanced Panther's costume and eyes in post for at least some of it. I even saw some BTS B-roll footage (possibly from the re-shoots) where he has CG reference markers and bands on his face, limbs and torso.

In the final film he definitely appears less bulky and more sleek than the set photos above. More details on the mask and less visible seams in the costume too.

Not the most perfect visual comparison but, the suit I think is practical:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_small/11/113509/4930728-9022855463-Panth.jpg


and the one that definitely looks CG-assisted:
http://images.techtimes.com/data/images/full/237063/black-panther.jpg

megladon8
05-17-2016, 10:26 PM
If they ever need flashbacks to a young Luke and they don't use Stan, it's pretty much an instant fail.

number8
05-17-2016, 10:37 PM
They definitely enhanced Panther's costume and eyes in post for at least some of it. I even saw some BTS B-roll footage (possibly from the re-shoots) where he has CG reference markers and bands on his face, limbs and torso.

This I figured to be the case (on everyone's costumes, really). There's a sleekness and shininess to modern cinematic superhero attire that real life fabric can't produce.

megladon8
05-17-2016, 10:40 PM
Also loved Spidey's "holy shit!" reaction to Ant Man's giant form.

Lazlo
05-18-2016, 02:59 AM
http://www.theverge.com/2016/5/12/11664554/captain-america-civil-war-cgi-visual-effects-spider-man-interview

In many of the action scenes, particularly the airport fight, anyone whose costume doesn't have a visible face element is completely CGI (aside from some standing around shots). There are some scenes where Black Panther is a dude in a costume, like in the photos, but even there they often shrank or replaced the head in post because of the extra bulk added by the costume's helmet.

Milky Joe
05-18-2016, 07:43 PM
I'm kind of worried about how many characters they're going to jam into Infinity War. I enjoyed CW but there was already a feeling of Too Much. Winter Soldier was a much more satisfying film because it was more intimate... they'll need a 10-hour miniseries to do justice to all these characters.

number8
05-18-2016, 07:51 PM
http://www.theverge.com/2016/5/12/11664554/captain-america-civil-war-cgi-visual-effects-spider-man-interview

Wow. That's crazy that they went through the trouble of filming practical stunts and then just went, "Eh, fuck it we can do better" and replaced it all with CG sequences.

That does explain why the trailer footage of that sequence is so different from the finished movie's, though.

Dukefrukem
05-18-2016, 08:20 PM
That does explain why the trailer footage of that sequence is so different from the finished movie's, though.

Probably killed two birds with one stone. I bet they wanted who's in that scene to be a surprise.

TGM
05-20-2016, 06:50 AM
So I recently did a double feature of Batman v Superman and Civil War, and decided to write a post comparing all the ways the movies are both so similar and yet so different, and basically just discussing whatever I felt like discussing about them in a bit of a scattered fashion. So check it out, if you all might be interested: http://cwiddop.blogspot.com/2016/05/double-feature-batman-v-superman-and.html

Morris Schæffer
05-20-2016, 10:38 AM
So I recently did a double feature of Batman v Superman and Civil War, and decided to write a post comparing all the ways the movies are both so similar and yet so different, and basically just discussing whatever I felt like discussing about them in a bit of a scattered fashion. So check it out, if you all might be interested: http://cwiddop.blogspot.com/2016/05/double-feature-batman-v-superman-and.html

will do later, at work now. :)

[ETM]
05-20-2016, 08:59 PM
I so intensely do not want to think about BvS again that I'm probably gonna pass, even though I'm interested in half of your write-up...

Winston*
05-22-2016, 10:06 PM
Captain America vs. the U.N. I enjoyed it for the most part but the politics of this movie are pretty weird.

Also, odd decision to have the villain's plan be to kill dozens of people in order to strain a friendship.

Skitch
05-24-2016, 02:06 AM
Caught this today. Very good as expected. While Im generally annoyed at comparing it to BvS (because they share so little to compare outside of "comic book movie" and "heroes fight heroes"), I felt it shared several of the same negatives....and they equally didnt bother me that much. Theres more than a few wicked inconsistencies in the films concepts/ideas, but Im not much of a stickler, I can just roll with it. Said it before and I'll say it again, I wish others were as forgiving of DC films as they are of Marvel, but whatever. I can just turn off the internet and enjoy both in my own little hovel.

I also stand by the Cap series being best of Marvels work from day one, and I am sick of people pooping on The First Avenger. I love that flick.

As for positives, I echo most of whats been said. Spider-Man was great but Im still reserved on him carrying a whole flick because of age. Aunt May being so young was odd, but okay. As I requested, the speech I wanted was present, so I loved that.

The trailer for Doctor Strange before this just melts my fucking brain. It reminded me that I want to see that more than Civil War because it looks less predictable.

Im glad the trailer didnt blow every moment in film and actually decieves on several points. Good job. That was probably BvS' biggest failing.

Stay Puft
05-25-2016, 12:21 AM
I didn't expect this thing to remind me of Batman v Superman so much. (But I guess that's kinda beating a dead horse. I don't follow much superhero news tho and was surprised that Zemo was in this, and continually surprised by how many of the problems I had with BvS kept popping up here.) I'm with trans and Irish, this thing is an overlong, needlessly convoluted mess. It served up some very good commercials, though (Black Panther was boss, and that was easily the best interpretation of Spider-Man I've seen on the big screen).

Beat for beat I probably had more fun watching this than The First Avenger, but it's not as good as The Winter Soldier (I enjoyed the drama with Cap and Falcon in that movie more than most anything else in the MCU).

Dead & Messed Up
05-30-2016, 08:03 AM
I didn't expect this thing to remind me of Batman v Superman so much. (But I guess that's kinda beating a dead horse. I don't follow much superhero news tho and was surprised that Zemo was in this, and continually surprised by how many of the problems I had with BvS kept popping up here.) I'm with trans and Irish, this thing is an overlong, needlessly convoluted mess. It served up some very good commercials, though (Black Panther was boss, and that was easily the best interpretation of Spider-Man I've seen on the big screen).

Beat for beat I probably had more fun watching this than The First Avenger, but it's not as good as The Winter Soldier (I enjoyed the drama with Cap and Falcon in that movie more than most anything else in the MCU).

I'm on the right side enough to call the film successful as a diversion, but I'm closer to this crew than I am to the people praising the film to the heavens (Match Cut Civil War?).

Has anybody actually stepped back and totaled up the similarities between this film and Batman v. Superman? Because, goddamn, you got your mother issues, you got your title fight, you got your human puppetmaster with a grudge, you got your governmental meeting exploded once it's sufficiently set up plotting, and a supposedly ideological storyline that seems to have no real idea of what point it's trying to make, other than that ideology is a great way to get people who wouldn't normally punch each other to punch each other until they kiss and make up?

Also, someone else pointed this out online, but why exactly is Tony Stark showing a traumatic memory in the middle of a TED Talk? And for that matter, did anyone else find that motivator pat and unconvincing? RDJ does his best and manages some pathos at the end, but the film basically makes it a wash dramatically by having Bucky brainwashed. Can you imagine if Bucky did that at the time because someone had convinced him through reason that it was the right thing to do?

And has there been a grayer superhero movie? This film does a tremendous job of trying to convince me of all the different crazy global locations the heroes journey to, with those overbearing title cards that'd be more at home in a YouTube lyric video, and then the Russos stick nearly all the action inside nondescript office buildings, in tunnels, on tarmacs, right outside basic block buildings.

The Russos spend the first half of the movie more or less whiffing on good action by relying on hyper-editing that keeps things just barely comprehensible but rarely fun. The airport sequence is better-mounted, and broadly entertaining as a demonstration of all the different kinds of fights these heroes can generate, but none of what's happening matters. When Vision muttered "Catastrophe," you have to wonder if his idea of catastrophe is one guy who'll be re-learning to walk off-screen until the next flick has him back to normal. Why is Barton here? Why does he care? Ant-Man? Spider-Man? (Sidebar: This is Spider-Man's first superhero fight, I assume, and he's battling enemies more or less built for murder - shouldn't he be just a wee bit more intimidated?)

The ending was especially frustrating, when it seemed like the film would close on some Avengers locked up in a supermax, and the two heroes genuinely on the outs with each other, torn by an irresolvable obstacle. But then... the things that happen happen, and it's all more or less status quo.

Most of what happened with New Heroes Spider-Man and Black Panther felt solid, the latter more than the former. Black Panther has a very basic and clear reason to get involved, and if his whole getup seems goofy the first time I saw him, by the end I'd adjusted and bought him as a character. Does he have superpowers, though, or is he just athletic as hell? The film never says, IIRC.

Some of the more obvious positives are things I've mentioned re: prior films, in that nearly all of the leads know how to max out the charisma and play with the right amount of engagement and detached irony. Even though Ant-Man was a completely needless addition to this film (his motivation would've actually been clearer and more sympathetic if Barton paid him a lot of money to help, knowing what we know about him)... Rudd's a charmer. These people could all charm the pants right off me.

Which goes a long way toward explaining why I think the film is sort of drab and definitely weak on the story side and still think it's ultimately worth a watch.

Number8 suggested the interesting idea that Stark realizes submitting to the UN could pave the way for more Bucky Barneses, but I don't agree that the film communicates that idea. The U.N. seems to come off more like parents telling the kids that their party's getting too loud. And at the end, the kids turn the volume back up.

TGM
05-30-2016, 08:08 AM
Has anybody actually stepped back and totaled up the similarities between this film and Batman v. Superman?

Er...


So I recently did a double feature of Batman v Superman and Civil War, and decided to write a post comparing all the ways the movies are both so similar and yet so different, and basically just discussing whatever I felt like discussing about them in a bit of a scattered fashion. So check it out, if you all might be interested: http://cwiddop.blogspot.com/2016/05/double-feature-batman-v-superman-and.html

:p

Dead & Messed Up
05-30-2016, 08:10 AM
Er...



:p

What, you expect me to read a thread before posting?

;)

megladon8
05-30-2016, 12:17 PM
I completely agree that there needed to be some kind of loss for all this to have mattered.

We end with everything he same as it was at the beginning of the film. This "war" was more like a prolonged annoyance for both sides.

Dukefrukem
05-30-2016, 12:22 PM
But everything isn't the same.

megladon8
05-30-2016, 02:01 PM
Yes it is. What changed?

Captain America leaves Tony Stark a message saying "hey, hope we're good. Call me if you need me!"

No one died. No ones allegiances changed. War Machine will no doubt be just fine.

number8
05-30-2016, 02:58 PM
I don't know how much this matters in the bigger picture, but Cap wasn't a fugitive on the run at the beginning of the movie.

I actually feel really bad for Barton and Lang. They have family. After Ant-Man ended so well for his redemption in terms of turning a new leaf and forging a healthy relationship with his ex and daughter, surely being a wanted criminal is putting a huge damper on that.

megladon8
05-30-2016, 03:26 PM
They're superheroes. I doubt it's really going to affect any of them much in the long run.

Dead & Messed Up
05-30-2016, 05:38 PM
I don't know how much this matters in the bigger picture, but Cap wasn't a fugitive on the run at the beginning of the movie.

Wasn't the premise of Winter Soldier that he was a fugitive on the run from Shield/Hydra? It's basically his second job at this point.


I actually feel really bad for Barton and Lang. They have family. After Ant-Man ended so well for his redemption in terms of turning a new leaf and forging a healthy relationship with his ex and daughter, surely being a wanted criminal is putting a huge damper on that.

He voluntarily joins the side of the Avengers that's breaking the law by making a pithy joke about how he's used to be a criminal; that didn't feel organic given where we left him at the end of Ant-Man. It would've been more interesting if Team Cap had to either hide their criminal nature from him or else basically buy him into it.

number8
05-30-2016, 05:41 PM
Well, if you're gonna take that outlook, then even death isn't that big of a deal either for superheros. We're talking about a narrative change. Making Cap a fugitive from the government is about as much of a change as destroying Shield was.

Dukefrukem
05-30-2016, 06:54 PM
Yes it is. What changed?

Captain America leaves Tony Stark a message saying "hey, hope we're good. Call me if you need me!"

No one died. No ones allegiances changed. War Machine will no doubt be just fine.

Cap drops his shield at the end of the movie ending his reign as "Captain America" and introducing us to Nomad Captain.

This is of course on top of the obvious change where The Winter Soldier is removing himself from the equation (much like the Hulk did at the end of Age of Ultron) by saying he can't trust himself and needs to be where he cannot harm anyone else (Wakonda).

Those are just two major changes.

Winston*
05-30-2016, 08:41 PM
War Machine and The Winter Soldier should've died if they wanted to give the thing some stakes. It's not like either of those characters are necessary moving forward.

Skitch
05-30-2016, 08:50 PM
I was pretty shocked Rhodey didn't die, especially considering the criticism marvel has gotten in the past that no one ever dies. He seems expendable and replaceable to me. Not that I dislike him, but that is the way they pointed the story.

Poor Quicksilver. Marvel's sole victim/sacrifice.

Milky Joe
05-30-2016, 08:53 PM
He is so much better in the X-Men movies I could really care less.

Dukefrukem
05-30-2016, 09:43 PM
I was pretty shocked Rhodey didn't die, especially considering the criticism marvel has gotten in the past that no one ever dies. He seems expendable and replaceable to me. Not that I dislike him, but that is the way they pointed the story.

Poor Quicksilver. Marvel's sole victim/sacrifice.

Quicksilver was also an easy kill because it was a shared character. Fox does him better anyway.

Edit: Milkey Joe agreed.

Dead & Messed Up
05-30-2016, 09:46 PM
War Machine and The Winter Soldier should've died if they wanted to give the thing some stakes. It's not like either of those characters are necessary moving forward.

Bucky isn't even interesting. And he's yet another character to lose an arm without it meaning anything.

Dukefrukem
05-30-2016, 09:48 PM
Bucky isn't even interesting. And he's yet another character to lose an arm without it meaning anything.

He alone isn't interesting. But he and Cap are very interesting.

Dead & Messed Up
05-30-2016, 11:08 PM
He alone isn't interesting. But he and Cap are very interesting.

Someone compared Bucky to Helen of Troy, and it hurt me how true that felt.

number8
05-31-2016, 02:37 PM
I'm a little more precious about these characters, I think, in terms of how they come across on a meta level, so I definitely don't want the specter of Watchmen to permeate these movies. I was wary of this premise for that reason. So I was pleasantly surprised when the thing I dug the most about the big brawl was how reluctant everyone seemed. My other favorite moment besides Cap and Spidey's New Yorker bonding was Black Widow and Hawkeye whispering "We're still friends, right?" while trading blows. It gives the impression that they still regard each other as heroes and they don't want to seriously hurt each other, which makes it far less unpleasant to watch than the bloodthirst in That Other Movie We Shall Not Name.

These folks just want to get their job done. In doing so they created a fracture, there's consequences from it, and there's a status quo change that moves on to the following movie because of the different positions and alignments they end up in, but none of the heroes are permanently tainted by the unforgivable malice/incompetence that would shadow them if Rhodey had died. Heroes dying for dramatic purposes is fine (though often unnecessary and cheap), but it would leave a bad taste in my mouth if they quibble over petty reasons and then fight to the death. These characters are heroes to me.

Dukefrukem
05-31-2016, 03:06 PM
Heroes dying for dramatic purposes is fine (though often unnecessary and cheap), but it would leave a bad taste in my mouth if they quibble over petty reasons and then fight to the death. These characters are heroes to me.

However, in the War Machine case, I think it would have been very fitting since it was friendly fire. And it would have been more of a reflection on "what are we doing" rather than excatly your point with: That Other Movie We Shall Not Name.

number8
05-31-2016, 03:29 PM
That's not a good enough distinction for me (I did say "malice/incompetence"). It's still a death that's the direct result of a fight they all started.

It's flimsy. Like that episode of Homicide where there's a gang war and one gangbanger kid caps someone that he thought was a rival gang member, and then when he's arrested he tries to argue with the detectives that it shouldn't be considered murder because he killed the wrong person by mistake.

Morris Schæffer
05-31-2016, 04:04 PM
However, in the War Machine case, I think it would have been very fitting since it was friendly fire. And it would have been more of a reflection on "what are we doing" rather than excatly your point with: That Other Movie We Shall Not Name.

I think that's a notable distinction. Good point.

Overall though, I kept thinking there was nothing that sitting around a table with a good couple of beers wouldn't have resolved. So in that way, perhaps casualties would have been taking things a might too far. They're not that antagonistic and they never will be. It does mean that I'd rather see these fellas work together against a common foe than against each other.

megladon8
05-31-2016, 04:08 PM
Does anyone here really think Cap isn't going to come back as the same Cap we've always had in the next movie?

Iron Man 3 was the first movie in the series to have some really notable shake ups to how these characters think and act...then it's like none of it ever happened in the next movies.

Dukefrukem
05-31-2016, 06:33 PM
Does anyone here really think Cap isn't going to come back as the same Cap we've always had in the next movie?

The Russo Brothers actually talked about this transformation. And I posted in this very thread about the change. So yes I actually think we are going to see a different Cap.

Who knows what it will be. Maybe it will be Secret Avengers. The teams are still divided. Things aren't exactly as they were before the movie started. I dont know why you can't see this.

Grouchy
06-01-2016, 08:17 PM
Good, almost great, superhero movie. I like that the Russos start the movie slowly building character motivations which will prove oh-so-important in the final act. The storyline is completely different than the comics and yet the spirit of the confrontation is there - although I always felt that the comics made it easy to be on the Cap side and the movie makes it way too easy to be on the Tony Stark side. I mean, the Cap and Black Widow basically lied to his face the entire time and refused to accept the logical consequences of causing brutal collateral damage. number8 makes a good point about how the knowledge of the Winter Soldier program made Cap weary of governments and maybe I missed that in the movie, but for the most part Team Cap just came off as stubborn.

Epic airport scene is epic and anyone who has ever read classic Marvel comics knows this is stuff those stories are made of. Misunderstandings and conundrums which force heroes to fight each other are par the course with the Marvel Universe.

The title cards were kind of funny.

Skitch
06-01-2016, 09:40 PM
It was hard for me to side with Tony at all considering it was his creations that created the enemy in how many Marvel movies. He, if anyone, should be more sympathetic to Winter Soldier in the "his fault/not really his fault" line of thinking.

Henry Gale
06-01-2016, 10:51 PM
Re-watched The Avengers last night, and though the novelty of the unprecedented cinematic team-up and things like Coulson's death no longer stun like they did before, one of the most fascinating things in it was seeing the reversal that's taken place since then with Tony being the one trying to uncover what SHIELD was up to with his hacking and consistently going against authority (and also being the one to choosing to sacrifice himself for the deployed nuke), while Cap was the one so trusting of the powers-that-be and sitting back only to be willingly utilized when he was instructed. The moment Cap finds the old Hydra flamethrower suits might've been an unintentional clue to their long-seeded infiltration, though Fury explains it away as using all the tools they had to understanding the cube's power.

The other cool thing to still see going is Thanos' long-game first show itself here, and how much of Loki's interest in being on the heli-carrier was to have the Hulk, something he might finally get his wish with in Ragnarok.

Dukefrukem
08-25-2016, 10:52 PM
Does anyone here really think Cap isn't going to come back as the same Cap we've always had in the next movie?



"I think him dropping that shield is him letting go of that identity," said Joe Russo when asked to clarify Rogers' position during an interview with The Huffington Post. "[It’s] him admitting that certainly the identity of Captain America was in conflict with the very personal choice that he was making."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/directors-confirm-captain-america-isnt-captain-america-anymore_us_57bc97bfe4b03d51368 b23da

TGM
09-13-2016, 10:21 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ3VQkK6Upo

Skitch
09-13-2016, 11:11 PM
I usually make it about 10 seconds into those things before I'm annoyed and bail, but that was spot on.

TGM
09-21-2016, 01:37 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHsykcKIMY8

DavidSeven
09-22-2016, 09:30 PM
The ideological positions should've been flipped. Let Cap be the pragmatic idealist who is persuaded by a story of personal loss. Let Iron Man be the stubborn egoist who refuses oversight by bureaucrats he doesn't trust. I haven't read the source material, but I'm guessing the filmmakers were too deferential to the comic book narrative. The positions do not suit the characters as presented in the movies. What happened to Libertarian Stark from Iron Man 2? Maybe it seems like a small thing, but this miscalculation ruins the movie. None of these motivations feel genuine, and it creates a level of disconnect from beginning to end. The story doesn't work because we don't believe these characters.

The other big problem is that Steve Rogers doesn't have enough cachet to push an unconvincing position without the audience turning on him. Tony Stark, on the other hand, has enough equity with the audience that he could do just about anything. No one is turning on Stark, as played by Downey. Therefore, you need to build a really, really strong case for Captain America's position (and probably weaken Iron Man's) if you want these guys on a level playing field. This film fails to do that.

Like Batman v. Superman, this movie sort of blows a premise that should've been remarkable easy to follow through on. Captain America and Iron Man are set up perfectly for this type of ideological clash, but the studio flubbed and put them on the wrong sides.

number8
09-22-2016, 09:46 PM
I believe the intent was specifically to flip them from their expected positions. Stark's whole thing here is that creating Ultron traumatized him so much that he has abandoned his libertarian individualist streak, whereas Cap is so traumatized by Hydra's infiltration of Shield that he's now extremely suspicious of government oversights.

DavidSeven
09-22-2016, 09:55 PM
Yeah, I could see how they mapped that out, but it still didn't come across as believable to me. Also, why get cute? If we flipped their positions, the basic premise lines up well with what we know of the characters. I'd rather the film be convincing and not surprising than surprising and not convincing. If there's going to be an about-face, let's see that happen within the movie.

On the plus side, I think I liked this version of Spider-Man better than most of MC. To me, he was the highlight. Best cinematic portrayal by far.

Skitch
09-22-2016, 10:02 PM
I liked the reversal in the source material and here too. I felt it was a convincing path for Rogers to go. Movie Stark it was definitely weird turn, but then again, so much of the havoc was directly his fault.

number8
09-22-2016, 11:24 PM
Well, it's not a reversal in the source material. Their positions in Civil War comic aligned properly with how those two had been historically portrayed before the event. In the comics, Cap was always an anti-establishment man of the people and Stark a staunch guilt-ridden suit type. Robert Downey Jr.'s portrayal has changed the character quite significantly. Pre-2008, Iron Man wasn't a rogueish quippy character.

I don't remember if I posted this sentiment here, but when they announced that they were adapting Civil War, I immediately thought that they needed to either change the premise entirely or jump through some hoops to alter Movie Stark's established characterization. They chose the latter.

Dead & Messed Up
09-23-2016, 01:38 AM
Yeah, Cap's motivations more or less track given the events of Winter Soldier. Stark's less convincing. I also didn't quite get how he's worried about little guys caught in the crossfire but eagerly brings Spider-Man to a fight with Scarlet Witch and Vision. Stick to the edge of the fight, guy... and, y'know, watch out for mind gem lasers and Marvel's Carrie.

Skitch
09-23-2016, 01:49 AM
Well, it's not a reversal in the source material. Their positions in Civil War comic aligned properly with how those two had been historically portrayed before the event. In the comics, Cap was always an anti-establishment man of the people and Stark a staunch guilt-ridden suit type. Robert Downey Jr.'s portrayal has changed the character quite significantly. Pre-2008, Iron Man wasn't a rogueish quippy character.

I don't remember if I posted this sentiment here, but when they announced that they were adapting Civil War, I immediately thought that they needed to either change the premise entirely or jump through some hoops to alter Movie Stark's established characterization. They chose the latter.

Yes I know. I guess I shouldve clarified, my first exposure to the source material was the graphic novel, so I expected the roles to be opposite (just guessing from the cover) , and I enjoyed that they were as they were.

Ezee E
12-31-2016, 03:20 AM
I enjoyed it, even if the story was pretty shitty. Seems like the Avengers would be completely shut down after destroying an airport and millions of land for an internal squabble. But hey, I'm grateful that there wasn't a huge force trying to destroy a big city at least.

I like this because Captain America is probably my favorite out of all the MCU characters. The camaraderie and conflict with Barnes might be the best conflict in the MCU too. Because there's actually a conflict that goes beyond good and evil. Adding Stark to the mix causes some interesting back and forth at times.

Action is very well done here. Three standout especially. Staircase, airport (obviously), and the final fight is especially kind of gritty. Bad decision to not let someone die out of the group. That could've been the thing that showed some consequences of their powers, but there really are none.

Enjoyable enough. I don't think I have it in me to even try the DC World.

What's Black Panther's angle going to be? He was pretty impressive.

Never saw Ultron. Oops.

transmogrifier
12-31-2016, 03:31 AM
Ultron is a waste of time, really.

Skitch
12-31-2016, 01:43 PM
Ultron is a waste of time, really.

Other than the opening sequence, agreed.

Dukefrukem
12-31-2016, 05:06 PM
Other than the opening sequence, agreed.

Does this include the party banter? Excelsior!

Also the Klaw introduction will play a part in Black Panther.