Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice

[Morris Schæffer]

Just got back. It's boring, unexciting, i felt no euphoria with the titular titans. In spite of all the flash and fx in the world, this movie succeeds in rendering bats and supes ordinary. They're vessels for bringing down noise and excess on unfortunate moviegoers. i think that affleck's portrayal of batman is faintly intriguing but he's in a shitty movie. This is what the trailers promised and boy did it deliver.

[number8]

Given my usual opinion on Snyder, my reaction will probably be written off as a hater, but my god, this was unfathomably bad. It was not just boring as hell, it's unnecessarily confusing. The movie is called Batman v Superman, and yet when the one and only fight starts, I was not clear on why they're fighting. The movie starts with a good enough reason, which is Bruce Wayne being pissed about the destruction of Metropolis, but then there's a whole two hours afterwards of government hearings and The Flash warning from the future and Luthor doing something or other and I didn't understand any of it. Holy shit, why would you make a movie like this this complicated? Just utterly shit.

The Justice League cameos were the worst "wink wink future franchise" derailing of a movie since Iron Man 2.

[Irish]

The movie is called Batman v Superman, and yet when the one and only fight starts, I was not clear on why they're fighting.

I've read this from a few sources, so you're not alone.

Also, I heard that Batman is .... uh .. .different?

He kills people? With guns??? And brands criminals with a bat symbol so they will be murdered in prison???

Jesus Christ, what the fuck were they thinking? How do you take a character like Batman and have him do that?

[DavidSeven]

Jesus Christ, what the fuck were they thinking? How do you take a character like Batman and have him do that?

Because Zack Snyder.

[Spinal]

I will be on schadenfreude overload reading the reviews for this.

[number8]

He kills people? With guns??? And brands criminals with a bat symbol so they will be murdered in prison???

Yes, as I understand it he only brands pedophiles, so that when they go to prison the other inmates will know immediately and kill them.

At the end of the movie he's about to brand Luthor but then resists the urge, which I guess is this movie's idea of character development.

[megladon8]

Can't wait for the explanation as to why Joker is still alive.

[Watashi]

It seems like the only people really excited about this movie are Trump supporters. I'm absolutely loving this crash and burn. WB must be sweating like crazy. No way does Justice League come out next year. I have a feeling they will sideline that and push forward Affleck's solo Bat film.

[number8]

This now officially has a lower Tomatometer score than Tommy Wiseau's The Room.

[Spinal]

This now officially has a lower Tomatometer score than Tommy Wiseau's The Room.

Still higher than My Big Fat Greek Wedding 2 though.

[Irish]

Still shocked. I didn't think it was possible for Warners to fuck up this badly. How do they manage to produce good TV and yet mediocre movies --- based on the same characters?

I don't know how much the Tomatometer matters outside US fandom. This movie will release in 4,000 theaters in the US and 82 countries near-simultaneously. I wouldn't be surprised if it pushed ~$600 million, as other badly received tentpoles did (Iron Man 2, Thor: The Dark World, Man of Steel).

[Ivan Drago]

WB must be sweating like crazy. No way does Justice League come out next year.

Unless the worldwide gross this weekend bails it out.

[MadMan]

From what I keep hearing how Suicide Squad and the Wonder Woman movies do is the real test.

[Skitch]

It seems like the only people really excited about this movie are Trump supporters.

Now I can't even want to see a Batman/Superman movie without being a Trump supporter? Man, that is the trolliest thing I've ever seen you post.

[Morris Schæffer]

Also, I heard that Batman is .... uh .. .different?

He kills people? With guns??? And brands criminals with a bat symbol so they will be murdered in prison???

Jesus Christ, what the fuck were they thinking? How do you take a character like Batman and have him do that?

I fail to see the problem here. It's a reinterpretation of the character, possibly appropriate for the times we live in. No holds barred, relentless, violent, grim, but as I said this Batman is part of a messy movie which still makes it impossible to feel anything for the character.

[number8]

I fail to see the problem here. It's a reinterpretation of the character, possibly appropriate for the times we live in. No holds barred, relentless, violent, grim, but as I said this Batman is part of a messy movie which still makes it impossible to feel anything for the character.

Yeah, honestly, I was so bored and restless by the movie that by the time he started mowing people down with guns I couldn't be bothered to muster any nerdrage about it.

It's meant to be Frank Miller's Batman anyway. The big scene where he overtly shoots someone to death is adapted verbatim from a scene in Dark Knight Returns.

[Scar]

I'm guessing I should just watch Dark Knight Returns again until this comes out for rent?

[Dukefrukem]

Can't thank you enough for the spoiler tags guys. I typically don't read these threads until I see the movie but I was too tempted this morning. So you guys saved me.

[number8]

By the way, Eisenberg's performance is even more manic than the trailers suggest (can you believe they used the most subdued parts?), but even so, he's not the worst thing about this Luthor. The character is all over the place. I don't even fully understand why he's getting Batman and Superman to fight.

He's introduced to be working on behalf of the government's effort to take Superman down, but then halfway through the movie he turns on them because he's batshit crazy and working through some daddy issues... but then at the end he's revealed to be working for Darkseid??? Fucking thing made no sense.

[Melville]

It's meant to be Frank Miller's Batman anyway. The big scene where he overtly shoots someone to death is adapted verbatim from a scene in Dark Knight Returns.
Batman shoots someone to death in Dark Knight Returns?

[number8]

Batman shoots someone to death in Dark Knight Returns?

It's this scene. I know it's obscured enough to debate about in the comic (and it has been debated on for decades now), but clearly Snyder interprets it a certain way.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-L6F1N0Mfupc/TwkZ8GUgOEI/AAAAAAAAAN0/iybdMgN7zJs/s1600/ibelieveyou1.gif

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-DuKATSYjJi8/TwkaArGNL0I/AAAAAAAAAN8/eSs3gXu05y4/s1600/ibelieveyou2.gif

[Melville]

It's this scene. I know it's obscured enough to debate about in the comic (and it has been debated on for decades now), but clearly Snyder interprets it a certain way.
Ah, I see. Yeah, that scene is strangely ambiguous. Given that later in the comic, multiple people explicitly say Batman's never killed anyone, and he doesn't kill the Joker, I always assumed he either just wounded the guy or shot next to him to frighten him (which would fit with the mutant's facial expression but not with the apparent blood splatter). But I remember Snyder saying he likes the Comedian from Watchmen because "he's a bad ass", so I can see him interpreting this scene as Batman killing the guy.

[number8]

He made it more explicit. In the movie the thug has a flamethrower and Batman says "I believe you" then shoots his fuel tank, causing a giant explosion that kills him and presumably everyone else in the room (including the guy he grabbed the machine gun from) but somehow not the hostage. It's a really dumb scene.

[Melville]

Ha. I think I'll take a pass on this one. Still haven't seen Snyder's other superhero movies.

[Peng]

This begins and ends OK. I liked the reframing of MoS' end through Wayne's point of view, and the climatic fight has more variety and players (including one or two that has different vulnerabilities) than the endless loop that is last film's climax. Almost everything in between, however, is bad. If I watched this at home, I would fast-forward through every scene with Jesse Eisenberg's Lex Luthor. The actor isn't actually bad for me, per se (he and Gadot seem the only ones to have some fun), but the material he was given is truly atrocious.

[Morris Schæffer]

Yeah, honestly, I was so bored and restless by the movie that by the time he started mowing people down with guns I couldn't be bothered to muster any nerdrage about it.

It's meant to be Frank Miller's Batman anyway. The big scene where he overtly shoots someone to death is adapted verbatim from a scene in Dark Knight Returns.

What's at stake for the Batman/Wayne character? Perhaps I simply don't remember because of the muddy nature of the story, but I genuinely don't feel there was anything worthwhile. Sure, he's a vigilante, keeping Gotham safe, which is enough impetus in and of itself, but not when an engaging movie needs to be delivered. The story didn't seem to hit Bruce on a personal level and this whole "I hate Superman because he destroys buildings and landmarks" just wasn't enough.

[number8]

What's at stake for the Batman/Wayne character? Perhaps I simply don't remember because of the muddy nature of the story, but I genuinely don't feel there was anything worthwhile. Sure, he's a vigilante, keeping Gotham safe, which is enough impetus in and of itself, but not when an engaging movie needs to be delivered. The story didn't seem to hit Bruce on a personal level and this whole "I hate Superman because he destroys buildings and landmarks" just wasn't enough.

Great question. I have no idea. I think I maybe missed something too, because when Superman shows up and tells Batman to pack up his shit out of nowhere, I was genuinely confused why. Did he just start watching the news and decide, "Eh, this Batman fellow is cramping my style"? What exactly led up to that confrontation?

Instead of delivering something about Batman's character that would make the fight have any meaning, we instead get half an hour of Lex Luthor sending them taunting letters like they're all in high school.

[baby doll]

Now I can't even want to see a Batman/Superman movie without being a Trump supporter? Man, that is the trolliest thing I've ever seen you post.I'm sure some Ted Cruz supporters will be up for this, as well.

[Yxklyx]

http://www.theonion.com/article/batman-v-superman-promotion-urges-filmgoers-just-g-52623

[Irish]

It's this scene. I know it's obscured enough to debate about in the comic (and it has been debated on for decades now), but clearly Snyder interprets it a certain way.

Ha. I started re-reading The Dark Knight Returns late last night because so many BvS reviews mentioned it. I didn't remember this scene at all and was gonna ask what you thought of it today.

At the very least, it seems clear to me that the panels depict Batman picking up a gun and firing it, which contravenes much of what he says and does in the canon.


Given that later in the comic, multiple people explicitly say Batman's never killed anyone, and he doesn't kill the Joker, I always assumed he either just wounded the guy or shot next to him to frighten him (which would fit with the mutant's facial expression but not with the apparent blood splatter).

It isn't just that-- less than 10 pages later, he's debating whether to face off against the Mutant Leader mano e mano. Batman considers that he could kill the guy from inside the Batmobile by firing a weapon at him and then thinks, "But that would be crossing a line I set for myself years ago."

It makes the panels 8 posted even more incomprehensible. Miller seems to show Batman killing someone with a gun, but then almost immediately reinforces the idea that he doesn't kill.

[number8]

There are a number of things like that in TDKR. There's that scene where he yells at his followers that guns are the weapons of the enemy and that they should never use it, and that batarangs are the best weapons. But like in the previous chapter he runs around with a rifle he brought himself, shooting at a helicopter. There's also that cheeky "Rubber bullets. Honest." quip.

[[ETM]]

This is even worse than anything I was expecting. My group of about 50 people had already purchased the tickets earlier, so we were seeing the movie even though we knew it was terrible beforehand.
And wow, was there laughter throughout what seemed four hours of torture... I mean, the lines, the Snyder-moments of slo-mo closeups, the insanely bad action sequences (especially chases), the overbearing and self-important score, the haphazard editing, the "wtf, you can't be that stupid!?" moments... JL cameos got the biggest laughs of them all.

I am definitely totally done as far as DC movies are concerned, at least on the big screen. I'm not funding more shit like this.

[Skitch]

;553320']
I am definitely totally done as far as DC movies are concerned, at least on the big screen. I'm not funding more shit like this.

This is kind of weird to me, my not just be done with Snyder?

[[ETM]]

This is kind of weird to me, my not just be done with Snyder?

I was never much of a DC fan at all. They're going the way of Marvel, and failing, so it's ruining everything for me even further.
I mean, I have zero interest in Suicide Squad, for example. I'm just either incredibly tired of or disinterested in any of these characters, and Superman and Batman are quickly joining them.
I'd consider seeing Wonder Woman in something, if the story had any real stakes. She was pretty much invincible in BVS.

[TGM]

Sure, it's messy in places, but fuck it, I liked it!

[Dukefrukem]

I could not drive home fast enough to NAY this.

Baffled it's this bad actually.

The stuff they shoehorned in:
All of the references to Flash, Cyborg and Aquaman (Where he's staring at the camera for 30 seconds before making a move)

The way Batman and Superman stop fighting and become best friends.

The Luther references at the very end (like he even knows wtf he's talking about)

Why is Batman suggesting they find the rest of the JL? Batman is like, the one member that doesn't like working with others. That should be the last thing on his mind.


Jesus Christ... were they referencing...

The Flashpoint Paradox in this movie?

[TGM]

It seems like the only people really excited about this movie are Trump supporters.

... What the fuck? Really?! :\

[Dukefrukem]

By the way, Eisenberg's performance is even more manic than the trailers suggest (can you believe they used the most subdued parts?), but even so, he's not the worst thing about this Luthor. The character is all over the place. I don't even fully understand why he's getting Batman and Superman to fight.

He's introduced to be working on behalf of the government's effort to take Superman down, but then halfway through the movie he turns on them because he's batshit crazy and working through some daddy issues... but then at the end he's revealed to be working for Darkseid??? Fucking thing made no sense.

I didn't get the impression he was working for him. Just that he "called" him somehow through the workings of the ship (I assumed).

[TGM]

Reading through the thread, I honestly don't even disagree with a lot of the points being brought up. The movie is a mess, a lot of the cameos are gratuitous, the movie is overly-complicated and doesn't really make a whole lotta sense. But despite all of that, none of its flaws stood out as nearly so glaring as those in Man of Steel, and didn't hinder my experience any the exception being Batman's dream sequence where he was gunning down guys left and right, which left me thinking "what in the fuck am I watching?!", until it was revealed to be a dream sequence, which, still is kinda cheap and needless, but suddenly didn't bother me nearly so much.

The thing is, I don't really have a defense for this movie, either. It's not like some of Snyder's other films, most notably Sucker Punch, where I can go to bat and actually debate why they're really a good movie. No, the thing is with this one is that it really is a very flawed and all over the place sorta movie. It's just that I happened to really enjoy myself with it is all. I didn't find it boring, and it didn't even feel its length at all to me really. This was just a very dumb yet very fun experience for me to just sorta turn off my brain and not take too seriously. And I had fun with it. But while I can see where others wouldn't find this nearly so enjoyable, I also think a lot of the hate its receiving is possibly far more volatile than it probably deserves.

[Henry Gale]

My screening finished about four hours ago but there's still so much to wrap my head around with this and I'm still so genuinely befuddled that I'm basically just going to respond to all of your posts as they most lined up with my swirling thoughts here.


Sure, it's messy in places, but fuck it, I liked it!

Going in very hopeful but slightly more worried, this was the reaction I most wanted to have. 'Twas not meant to be.


By the way, Eisenberg's performance is even more manic than the trailers suggest (can you believe they used the most subdued parts?), but even so, he's not the worst thing about this Luthor. The character is all over the place. I don't even fully understand why he's getting Batman and Superman to fight.

He's introduced to be working on behalf of the government's effort to take Superman down, but then halfway through the movie he turns on them because he's batshit crazy and working through some daddy issues... but then at the end he's revealed to be working for Darkseid??? Fucking thing made no sense.

I think Eisenberg is weirdly compelling, if in an obviously very surface level way. I kinda love his final moment, cross dissolving into that call-back, but otherwise, he had no choice but to play him dumb, irrational, and perfunctorily evil, since that's all the script has him as.

But I also have no way of knowing if what you spoilered actually happened, because this movie is general is just a big download of confusion for me right now.


This begins and ends OK. I liked the reframing of MoS' end through Wayne's point of view, and the climatic fight has more variety and players (including one or two that has different vulnerabilities) than the endless loop that is last film's climax. Almost everything in between, however, is bad. If I watched this at home, I would fast-forward through every scene with Jesse Eisenberg's Lex Luthor. The actor isn't actually bad for me, per se (he and Gadot seem the only ones to have some fun), but the material he was given is truly atrocious.

I agree with some of this positivity! The first 10-15 minutes almost made me think I'd be in the minority oddly defending this, since the Bruce Wayne to the rescue in Metropolis' 9/11 stuff works much better than it should (even if it really does seem to lock the movie into his perspective and villainize Supes early on) and paints him as a heroic version of the character we don't really see again. And, dare I say it, the parents' death scene might be one the most elegantly shot pieces of superhero filmmaking I can think of(??) and maybe an even more haunting version of it than Nolan's(??!!!!) I mean, the pearl necklace bit and the later shots with Bruce floating with the bats alone. Stunning It's super weird that they set the opening titles to all of it, but boy is that and the cave bit afterwards gorgeous stuff. If you're going to show mythology we've already seen done so recently (The ol' Webb's Spider-Man conundrum) that's pretty much how you do it. Make it dreamier and weirder and largely wordless.

Speaking of dreams! What the hell is the post-apocalyptic sequence even supposed to function as? If that had been pushed to the beginning of the movie, I can imagine it being a foreboding, metaphoric melting pot of Wayne subconscious fears, and dropping it before a larger chronological context might make us think twice of what world we're walking into with the film. But where it's actually placed? It slows everything down horrifically and barely functions as anything compelling. Then the Flash thing happens and it tries to look like a dream-within-a-dream? But it's clearly not since he doesn't know Flash otherwise, and the papers are still flying after he wakes up, making it awkwardly seem like the Darkseid desert dream was brought upon by The Flash as a vision of sorts? Oof.


Still shocked. I didn't think it was possible for Warners to fuck up this badly. How do they manage to produce good TV and yet mediocre movies --- based on the same characters?

I don't know how much the Tomatometer matters outside US fandom. This movie will release in 4,000 theaters in the US and 82 countries near-simultaneously. I wouldn't be surprised if it pushed ~$600 million, as other badly received tentpoles did (Iron Man 2, Thor: The Dark World, Man of Steel).


The Justice League cameos were the worst "wink wink future franchise" derailing of a movie since Iron Man 2.

I mean, there you have Coulson over his shoulder (as he was in the first, just more), Fury visiting him a couple of times, and Natasha working for Tony and showing her stuff towards the end, and two quick bits of Coulson being sent to the hammer (payed off in the post-credits) and seeing Hulk on a screen, all taking up chunks of the runtime that is usually still involved in moving other elements of the plot forward (with debatable sacrificing of momentum).

HERE: Bruce Wayne opening fucking files on his computer for what feels like five minutes. And then AGAIN with Wonder Woman. Absolutely atrocious. It's just the actors giving reactions to videos that feel like 2nd unit or reshoots (or in WW's case, just inserting a pic from the set of her movie whenever it existed later) that just overtly give us the origins of them and what they can do without any other context. Basically the antithesis of everything Marvel has done at their best in trying to leave intriguing seeds, later engaging audiences in those characters on screen, and then having them become a part of bigger interconnected teams and stories.

This universe's Justice League roster was essentially created by Lex Luthor by putting some files in a confidential subfolder. Why.

[Henry Gale]

More thoughts:

- Does this movie actually think it makes for a meaningful revelation to have the titular heroes discover both of their Mom's had the same first name? And to have it carry that coincidental weight to do what it does between them. Flabbergasting.

- Did they seriously think the best way to reveal something was going deeply awry in the senate hearing with Superman was to be tipped off with a callback to a piss joke? Because it garnered some big laughs in the theatre when Holly Hunter first saw it, and then after the bomb went off one of those same people simply went "Oh."

- If you're going to do a version of something as big as The Death of Superman storyline, at least fucking commit to it before your credits roll. Why not make that final shot/scene the first teaser for Justice League? Something else. Anything else.

- The amount of news reel cameos in this is just next-level. By the time we see Nancy Grace on the diner TV I just laughed out of defeat and went, "Oh we're still doing this? Alright, why not!"

- I don't think Wonder Woman should've necessarily been in this more because it's all already convoluted enough as is, but man, if her in full costume with abilities on display isn't the most compelling presence in the movie, I don't know who or what is. (But again, her theme lololol.. Norm Wilner described the riff as "something straight out of Bill & Ted movie" and I cannot say he is wrong.)

- The movie looked amazing in the 70mm presentation I saw, especially the IMAX-shot sequences (mainly noticed parts of the flashback opening, the whole desert dream, the big one-on-one battle, some of the stuff towards the end). Larry Fong's cinematography might get pegged as looking too "dark" and "dingy" from those watching the footage on their laptops or even DCP's in theatres, but for me it absolutely sang in rich detail, vibrant textures and colours abound through that celluloid.

But that's also a way to see a movie I'm not exactly fond of that 99% of people will not even have as an option anyway, so what am I even recommending?

- Don't forget this movie is going to have a 30-minute longer, R-rated cut to look forward to later this year! So not only was this movie massively disappointing and sluggish, but it also now fulfilled my worst fear right out of the gate by having this Director's Cut being something I was interested in even more of a chore since I barely enjoyed the original experience! Yay!

[Dead & Messed Up]

Wow, even with all the bad reviews to prep, I'm still surprised by the bad choices in this movie. The overemphasis on universe-building (at one point during the film's action climax), thinking that characters learning information is story, the constant Plot Stuff, the daydreaming and nightmaring that grinds what story there is to a halt, and the film making the crucial, crucial error of thinking that Doomsday is interesting to watch.

Along the way, Snyder demonstrates, as always, that he has a painterly attention to crafting monumental images. There's a shot of Superman and Doomsday laser-eye-ing each other that, taken purely as a color-soaked tableau, actually earns a previous scene that dwelled on a fresco of angels and demons.

But goddamnit, he's not a natural storyteller at all, and - absent of strong material to work off of - he turns this movie into a self-obsessed punchathon, the same way he did with Man of Steel. And boy oh boy does he not believe in Superman as a character. That kind of person doesn't fit in his worldview, which is identical to the warden from Shutter Island:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXY23gsHXXo

[megladon8]

I seriously want to know...

Since this Batman seems fairly OK with killing (even if through the "brand and get murdered" route), then why oh why is Joker still alive in this universe?

[Peng]

The way Batman and Superman stop fighting and become best friends.



https://scontent.fbkk5-2.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtl1/v/t1.0-9/12799053_10154080213873420_921 0668033236051614_n.jpg?oh=b80b e3a139fc622666d517be6c6b2a2b&oe=57864B9A

[Dukefrukem]

This universe's Justice League roster was essentially created by Lex Luthor by putting some files in a confidential subfolder. Why.

Lol. So true.

[Dukefrukem]

I seriously want to know...

Since this Batman seems fairly OK with killing (even if through the "brand and get murdered" route), then why oh why is Joker still alive in this universe?

That's not the half of it but I wish it were because then at least The branding for child molesters would kinda be justice.

He just blatantly mows down thugs with mini-guns on his batmobile and batwing. Not even trying to go out of his way to not murder.

I will say, the "Arkham Knight" fight scene was my favorite part of the movie and the only time during the movie where I wasn't bored out of my skull.

[number8]

I will say, the "Arkham Knight" fight scene was my favorite part of the movie and the only time during the movie where I wasn't bored out of my skull.

This reminds me... Were there any of the major dialogue and moments from the story that was not shown in the trailers, aside from Holly Hunter's death?

[Dukefrukem]

This reminds me... Were there any of the major dialogue and moments from the story that was not shown in the trailers, aside from Holly Hunter's death?

The only thing i can think of, is the stealing of Luther's files scene. Which btw, my company had major product placement which made me giggle.

http://www.emc.com/big-data/data-lake/images/isilon-scale-out-FILE-storage.jpg

[[ETM]]

Incidentally, product placement in the movie was among the most jarring I've seen lately, awkward long camera hovers over logos and all.

[number8]

I didn't think it was as bad as Man of Steel. I was half expecting Bats and Supes to be duking it out inside a Pizza Hut.

[TGM]

Yeah, I really didn't notice any of the product placement this time around either...

[Peng]

I rarely ever notice product placement in films, and I did once for both of these films. Strangely enough, both instances involved Lois Lane. MoS had her climbing the ice cave and then placed the camera in such a perfect close-up. BvS is during the bathtub scene where her shampoo bottle was distractingly blaring its brand right behind her.

[TGM]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwXfv25xJUw&feature=youtu.be

[D_Davis]

I didn't think it was as bad as Man of Steel. I was half expecting Bats and Supes to be duking it out inside a Pizza Hut.

"Did someone order a number two COMBO!"

BAM! BAM!

"Sorry, Bats, but we're all out of Hawaiian...PUNCH!"

POW!

[D_Davis]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwXfv25xJUw&feature=youtu.be

HA! Oh man...that music cue is perfect.

[[ETM]]

Yeah, I really didn't notice any of the product placement this time around either...

Opening flashback sequence played like a commercial for whatever 2016 SUV Wayne was driving... the shampoo Peng mentioned... the long zoom into the Aston Martin logo on Wayne's vintage car... I can't remember precisely what the others were, but I remember there being at least two or three more.

[TGM]

;553372']Opening flashback sequence played like a commercial for whatever 2016 SUV Wayne was driving... the shampoo Peng mentioned... the long zoom into the Aston Martin logo on Wayne's vintage car... I can't remember precisely what the others were, but I remember there being at least two or three more.

Still, nothing even nearly as in your face gratuitous as Superman vs the Kryptons as brought to you by Sears and your local IHOP. Oof! :p

[number8]

It was a perfect encapsulation of Zack Snyder's worldview, though, that his interpretation of Smallville, which is supposed to be the quintessential nice folksy American small town, has its Main Street a row of IHOP, Sears, and Wal-Mart.

[[ETM]]

I guess it was the senseless attention the small brands got, which were jarring in the context of the film. I've come to expect branded buildings in Hollywood blockbusters.

[Mysterious Dude]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwXfv25xJUw&feature=youtu.be

Would it be fair to say there is more drama in this clip than there is in Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice?

[Gizmo]

Just got back, and agree this was bad. I mean, I generally don't care for superhero films anyway (still haven't seen the latest Cpt America or Avengers), but I do like Batman for the most part. The slow motion was too much, the story was too hard to follow, and never really gave me a reason to care. Not only that, but it's already been touched on in this thread about the mom's name making them besties. I literally walked out of the theater with my group and commented on the "Your mom's name is Martha too? Did we just become besties?" "uh huh!". That was so utterly stupid that I stopped caring about anything but when the movie would end, and it was like another 30 minutes of "action" and "excitement" before the conclusion. Also, how are they explaining the strange stab wound that Clark Kent died of at the same time as Superman? Obviously they're oblivious due to the two funerals, but come on...

[Ezee E]

Ha. Sad Affleck is amazing. Coming off a string of critical hits, this has to be pretty rough.

[number8]

I just remembered the funniest line in the movie. When Batman just randomly tells Wonder Woman that they're in an evacuated neighborhood, right before fighting Doomsday and blowing the whole place up. I chuckled because that concern is so at odds with how much casualty there were in the first two hours of the movie. I couldn't help imagining a subliminal image of Snyder just dusting off his hands and then waving two middle fingers.

[Peng]

713400699850203136

[Milky Joe]

still better than The Dark Knight Rises

[TGM]

still better than The Dark Knight Returns

Also better than The Dark Knight Rises.

[Milky Joe]

whoops. yeah, what he said!

[Dukefrukem]

No to both of those posts.

[[ETM]]

It's not better than most films that I can recall right now.

[Ivan Drago]

This literally felt like I was watching the superhero equivalent of True Detective’s second season. As awesome as the final big action sequence, Jeremy Irons and the score were, and the use of newscasts is a solid homage to The Dark Knight Returns. . .this was an absolute slog. If the movie was trying to make the viewer pick a side in the five-minute fight between our heroes, it would've helped to have made them a little likable and less brooding or hyperviolent. What little “humorous” banter there is doesn’t feel organic to the story, and neither do scenes that only serve the purpose of screaming “THIS WILL MEAN SOMETHING IN ONE OF OUR NEXT FOUR MOVIES”, which stick out like a sore thumb. It tries too hard to add thought-provoking substance with its heavy handed metaphors, the characters' motivations change at the drop of a line, and why is Wonder Woman in this movie again? Ugh.

[Henry Gale]

It tries too hard to add thought-provoking substance with its heavy handed metaphors, the characters' motivations change at the drop of a line, and why is Wonder Woman in this movie again? Ugh.

I thought about this a bit, as I do think aside from her hilarious theme music she's maybe the most interesting presence in the movie despite her lack of real function. I think honestly the script just needed someone to realistically stand up to Doomsday aside from Batman while Superman saved Lois and considered his own sacrifice.

In other news, this will make around $170 million this weekend so there's a good chance the filmmakers and the studio will just shirk off its critics as "lolhaters" and learn nothing from its totally valid maligned response! Yaayyy!

[Milky Joe]

In case anyone hadn't seen this:


Fanboys do not own the franchises of Batman and Superman movies, so director Zack Snyder went against the mob and dared to raise the genre to a level of adult sophistication in 2013’s Man of Steel, the most emotionally powerful superhero movie ever made. (Fanboys hated it.) Snyder’s sequel, Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice adds politics, bringing to the fantasy some contemporary, real-world concerns. This is not conventional comic-book allegory; rather, Snyder uses the figures of Batman (Ben Affleck) and Superman (Henry Cavill) walloping each other to give visible substance to social and moral issues, much as Greek tragedy does. He takes the wildest, Bizarro World fiction — of two superheroes turned super foes — and uses the premise to explicate our current dilemmas concerning power, principles, and divinity.

It helps that Snyder is also visionary, inclined to extravagant spectacle and gifted with a signature erotic touch. An early montage equates violence, wealth, loss, and grief through symbolic images of bullets, pearls, blood, and tears. It is witnessed by the young Bruce Wayne, a paranoid orphaned millionaire who misconstrues Superman’s involvement in the previous film’s battle that devastated Metropolis (and traumatized nearby Gotham City), and so he vows a vigilante’s revenge. With its legal-brief title, Batman v Superman reflects the confusion that pits secularists against believers, and the partisanship that inhibits national alliance. This tension is so visually amped up that the opposition of Batman to Superman feels revelatory: Man versus the god in Man.

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/433246/batman-v-superman-culture-war-gets-mythic

[Dukefrukem]

In case anyone hadn't seen this:

"It helps that Snyder is also visionary"

[Wryan]

Well I won't pay to watch this again. Wonder Woman came off very well. Batfleck came off aight. Eisenberg was a big fat no. That trailer gave everything away. Lots of silliness. No big sequences that we didn't see in the trailers, so I came away feeling like I just watched a longer trailer. No really big "wow!" sequences that we hadn't really already seen. Unfortunate.

[Dukefrukem]

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.762321,-83.2835739,3a,75y,226.38h,84.2 4t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1seK9_8zTeH7 oAAAQvOrBWlg!2e0!3e2!7i8000!8i 4000!6m1!1e1

[Ezee E]

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.762321,-83.2835739,3a,75y,226.38h,84.2 4t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1seK9_8zTeH7 oAAAQvOrBWlg!2e0!3e2!7i8000!8i 4000!6m1!1e1

Sweet looking place.

[Irish]

Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice had quite the weekend — not only did it break the March opening record previously held by The Hunger Games, but with $424 million worldwide, Zack Snyder’s epic now boasts the highest opening weekend for a Warner Bros. superhero movie. All those negative reviews predictably had zero effect on audiences, who flocked to see the long-awaited showdown between the Dark Knight and the Man of Steel.

Batman v Superman brought in $170.1 million at the U.S. box office, giving it the biggest March opening weekend of all time. The Hunger Games previously held the record with its $152.5 million when it opened back in March 2012. But that’s not the only record Snyder’s film broke — with the widest pre-summer release on record, Batman v Superman also had the biggest pre-summer opening (another record that belonged to The Hunger Games), the biggest Easter weekend opening (besting Furious 7), and the biggest superhero movie opening for Warner Bros. (previously held by The Dark Knight Rises).

http://screencrush.com/batman-vs-superman-box-office-records/

[Skitch]

BATMAN.

[Milky Joe]

Those negative reviews had the opposite effect. Duh.

[[ETM]]

I had already paid for tickets. I'm doing everything now to persuade people not to see for themselves how bad it is, because it's the wrong kind of bad.

[Watashi]

It had a 40% drop on Saturday. WB can gloat about opening weekend because everyone knew that it would make a lot of money those first few days. The film will struggle to beat Deadpool's domestic gross. WB should be embarrassed about that.

[Henry Gale]

I just can't believe they still plan on releasing a Cyborg movie four years from now, after both Justice League parts. We got a shitty but succinct enough version of his origin here (once again, in those computer screen scenes!).

[DavidSeven]

Cool, so Snyder will keep getting to ride the coattails of other people's IP then.

[Irish]

It had a 40% drop on Saturday. WB can gloat about opening weekend because everyone knew that it would make a lot of money those first few days. The film will struggle to beat Deadpool's domestic gross. WB should be embarrassed about that.

Back of the napkin math suggests your prediction is wrong.

If we assume a 50% drop week over week and totally ignore the weekday numbers, BvS still comes away with $337 million domestic after 6 weeks. That's within spitting distance of Deadpool's current $345MM domestic after 6.4 weeks.

Granted, that's not good because BvS cost a rumored $400MM and Deadpool's production budget was like $5.50, a stick of gum, and old pocket lint.


Cool, so Snyder will keep getting to ride the coattails of other people's IP then.

This strikes me as an odd thing to say considering that Match Cut favorites like Nolan, Nolan's Kid Brother, Johnson, Whedon, the other Whedon, Not-French Goddard, and Black have all had their careers established or revived by "other people's IP."

To cherry pick an example: Goddard has 7 feature writing credits. Only 2 of them were original (Cabin in the Woods and Cloverfield). Everything else was a corporate work for hire gig. His last 3 projects were Daredevil, Sinister Six, and Robopocalypse.

We might like Goddard better than Snyder but we can't pretend they have dissimilar career paths.

[Henry Gale]

This strikes me as an odd thing to say considering that Match Cut favorites like Nolan, Nolan's Kid Brother, Johnson, Whedon, the other Whedon, Not-French Goddard, and Black have all had their careers established or revived by "other people's IP."

To cherry pick an example: Goddard has 7 feature writing credits. Only 2 of them were original (Cabin in the Woods and Cloverfield). Everything else was a corporate work for hire gig. His last 3 projects were Daredevil, Sinister Six, and Robopocalypse.

We might like Goddard better than Snyder but we can't pretend they have dissimilar career paths.

I mean, I see this point.. to a point. (To correct the bolded bit, you named two projects that never materialized, and left out that he wrote and became Oscar-nominated for The Martian, which hopefully lends him some clout for whatever he might want to do next.) But I feel like Seven mainly meant frustration towards Snyder being the person to be allowed to get credit for movies with this brand and set of ingredients being enough for audiences to turn up regardless of their now-proven quality (of the inferior type). Everything in terms of how MoS and BvS were sold are so indebted to Nolan, his name was actually all over the marketing for the former, and for this, it's like they didn't have to do anything but have Batman in the title for people to triumph financially based on the carried-over goodwill of the past trilogy. (They did test that with the weird outrage for Affleck's casting, though.)

But in the end, Snyder has tackled only one original idea in his whole directorial career (something that can't be said for anyone else you listed). It was Sucker Punch. It bombed, both critically and commercially (only six months after his previous lowest grosser, Legend of the Guardians), and as punishment, he was tasked with creative control of almost all of DC's prominent heroes for this cinematic era.

I sure hope he learns his lesson once he's done counting all this money.

[Mr. McGibblets]

This strikes me as an odd thing to say considering that Match Cut favorites like Nolan, Nolan's Kid Brother, Johnson, Whedon, the other Whedon, Not-French Goddard, and Black have all had their careers established or revived by "other people's IP."
Chris Nolan's career was established by Memento and it never needed to be revived. The Prestige was technically someone else's IP, but other than that and the Batman films, all his successes have been original. Joss Whedon created 4 of his own series before having anything to do with Marvel films. Goddard does most of his work on other people's IP, but the only film he's directed is an original. Shane Black has like 8 movies to his name, 7 of which are original. If that's Rian Johnson, all of his films are originals.

[number8]

Wow, they're marketing the director's cut already? It's been 3 days.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-MUzvASr8s

[number8]

Heh.


I’m so utterly unconcerned with the outcome of that fight. So profoundly, utterly unconcerned. I can’t even come up with a fake answer. I guess I have to root for Superman because he killed me, so I would hope that he would continue his killing spree and become like a serial killer Superman. That’s a new take on Superman. We’d all be in a heap of trouble if Superman was a serial killer. He could just wipe us all out. But then he’d be lonely.

[Dukefrukem]

I was just about to post that. They already have a release date. july 16th.

[Dukefrukem]

BTW, that scene would be pretty cool to see in the theatrical cut. I'm assuming that's a God of some kind.

People are saying it's Steppenwolf. BUt I think it's gonna be more Highfather-like. Or even a minion like Kalibak.

Thoughts?

[number8]

It's Darkseid's dad.

[Milky Joe]

Can't wait.

[Dukefrukem]

It's Darkseid's dad.

Makes sense.

[DavidSeven]

My point isn't that Snyder chose to work in the domain of others' intellectual property. If that's all he (or anyone else) wants to do, then more power to him (or them).

My point is that he's built a reputation for "making money" exclusively by standing on the shoulders of hot properties. The other filmmakers you've cited have dabbled in original and derivative works, gotten great reviews, brought prestige to their studios, etc. Snyder's lone virtue, considering his history of middling reviews, is the ability to make a buck, but he's only been able to do that by falling into this crazy loop where the underlying IP keeps making the money for him.

I don't think this whole established/revived debate really touches on the original point I was making with my half-assed joke.

[Irish]

All fair points-- and I wouldn't try to defend Snyder on aesthetic grounds, for obvious reasons.

Goyer and Abrams (to cherry pick 2 more names) are just as opportunistic as Snyder, but we don't disdain them as much. I find that interesting and wanted to tease out a little discussion about it.

Didn't mean to step on your joke!

[Winston*]

I don't think 300 would have been as big a hit as it was without Snyder's direction.

[Ezee E]

I don't think 300 would have been as big a hit as it was without Snyder's direction.

Agreed. At that time, those visuals were absolutely amazing to see.

[megladon8]

I think Snyder can create a very striking image. His visual style is definitely strong - not top tier, but he can create striking visuals for sure.

His problems lie in actual storytelling.

[Skitch]

I think Snyder can create a very striking image. His visual style is definitely strong - not top tier, but he can create striking visuals for sure.

His problems lie in actual storytelling.

This has always been true.

[Wryan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhvBVDPN7OM

[Skitch]

He seems...optimistic...but interesting take. I'm seeing it tomorrow. I hope I can overlook the usual Snyder problems to come away with an overall thumbs up to it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKRmMQaLZz8

[Henry Gale]

Ahahaha Smith and Garman are so beautifully frank there. Even when Affleck is praised (which, even if he was bad in the role, would make sense since they're friends) they admit the characterization of Wayne he's given is mostly a dickish hothead.

It's even funnier since Smith hosted DC Films' big primetime special recently where they officially unveiled all these new trailers and details, and he seemed genuinely excited, if overly so. Here he just sounds like someone who couldn't even pretend to enjoy this. The ending bit about seeing it early by himself and not being allowed to discuss it, waiting for the reviews, and his fear he just became dead inside is great.

[D_Davis]

Was this really in the movie?

http://imgur.com/gallery/2bn1ipg

[Dukefrukem]

Is that a mascot in the background? What are those kids doing?

[Spinal]

Was this really in the movie?

http://imgur.com/gallery/2bn1ipg

Not enough slo-mo to be in a Zack Snyder movie.

[D_Davis]

Everything about this movie just looks silly.

http://i.imgur.com/DrV9Azf.gifv

[Dukefrukem]

It had a 40% drop on Saturday. WB can gloat about opening weekend because everyone knew that it would make a lot of money those first few days. The film will struggle to beat Deadpool's domestic gross. WB should be embarrassed about that.

It just crossed the 200 mil mark but I think I'm with Wats here. It needs to make another 150 million to beat Deadpool domestically. Even if it does get there, it's a little embarrassing to gross the same amount of money as an R-rated movie.

Oh and to also not come close to the previous two Batman movies ($534 and $448 Dom for DK and DKR).

Remember how much Sony shamed TAS and TAS2. Both films made loot, but didn't touch Raimi's Spidey 3.

[number8]

To be fair, though, Deadpool was an insane anomaly that no one saw coming, so I don't think anyone would be that embarrassed for not beating it. Because of its modest budget, there's just no other superhero movie that would come close to touching Deadpool's profit margin. What will be embarrassing for WB is if this movie doesn't even make as much as Man of Steel, which is a real possibility.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Wonky post ahead:

Worldwide, BvS already has $530 mil after six days against MoS's lifetime $670 mil. So WB probably isn't sweating.

Domestic is trickier based on opening weekend numbers. People were citing the Friday-to-Sunday drop as a huge sign of bad word of mouth, but this was Easter Weekend - Furious 7 showed a similarly substantial drop, dropping 30% Friday-to-Saturday, another 30% Saturday-to-Sunday. Technically, Furious 7's drop Sat-to-Sun was 29% against BvS's 33%.

Not insignificantly, BvS also nabbed records for best Monday and Tuesday March grosses, and Fandango's said they're seeing 30% more repeat business than for the average blockbusters - there aren't any hard numbers to back up that claim, though, so grain of salt.

Also, how significant were Thursday screenings? Non-rhetorical question. The Arclights in Hollywood were having all kinds of Thursday evening screenings, not just the 12:01 am shows or whatever. Would this similarly overload the "Friday" numbers?

Seeing how it does this weekend will give us a better sense of its legs.

[TGM]

I'll say this, when looking up what was coming out this weekend, there were already Thursday and Friday shows for BvS that were already sold out from what I saw. Mostly morning shows, sorta like what happened with Star Wars when that came out and it was mostly morning shows that were consistently selling out.

[Watashi]

81% drop from last weekend.

[Dead & Messed Up]

81% drop from last weekend.

Now WB / DC is probably pissing their collective business-casual khaki pants.

And maybe this is the best possible outcome - the film's going to likely recoup globally, but barely, and the precipitous drop combined with the critical drubbing and mild word of mouth could hopefully, hopefully, hopefully get Snyder pushed more to the side.

The man is simply not a good match to this material.

[Dukefrukem]

81% drop from last weekend.

Bwhahahah. It went from an 81 mil Friday to 15!

[slqrick]

68% drop for the weekend. I see some people still fighting to say it's a huge box office hit and this is an expected drop, but there was literally no competition this weekend. Either way I don't think it will really matter for WB's plans, it would've been nice if Snyder got the boot for Justice League but that's just not realistic.

[DavidSeven]

This movie is especially annoying because Snyder, through his own bungling of Man of Steel, actually has a perfect setup for the duel. The story could've written itself; it should've been easy. But no, for no reason at all, they completely squander this setup by being aggressively incomprehensible for the next two hours. To be interesting at all, this absolutely had to be framed as a pure battle of ideologies. They can't even get this right, as Luthor's manipulation of the heroes undermines the entire weight of the battle.

Snyder has the technical competency to create vibrant images, but he has no taste. No ear for dialogue or feel for nuance. For every striking image, there are multiple confounding choices. Eisenberg plays Bizarro-Zuckerberg at a level that a good director would've coached him down from. There is something interesting about Affleck's take on Wayne, but it doesn't belong in this movie with Amazonian drums and cheesy found footage of mer-men.

It's a boring mess, but even more unfortunate, it's a complete waste of a great seed.

[Dukefrukem]

It just crossed the 200 mil mark but I think I'm with Wats here. It needs to make another 150 million to beat Deadpool domestically. Even if it does get there, it's a little embarrassing to gross the same amount of money as an R-rated movie.

Oh and to also not come close to the previous two Batman movies ($534 and $448 Dom for DK and DKR).

Remember how much Sony shamed TAS and TAS2. Both films made loot, but didn't touch Raimi's Spidey 3.

Weekend est is +52 which brings it to 261.

It needs 90 to meet Deadpool and 30 to get to Man of Steel.

[number8]

It's a boring mess, but even more unfortunate, it's a complete waste of a great seed.

The bizarre thing about this to me is that... Are there any ideological differences between Batman and Superman as Snyder sees them??

It seems that, because Man of Steel's dampened approach seeded a Superman who belongs in the scary vigilante status, the classic clash of Batman's fearmongering vs Superman's boy scoutery wouldn't work here. Even the setup in The Dark Knight Returns that this supposedly reveres hinges on the premise of Superman being on the side of the authorities, which Snyder's Superman is very adamantly not.

What they really needed to do was to fulfill the promise of Man of Steel's defenders who said that it was a young Superman still learning to be the Superman that we know, and start the sequel off with that promised character who can then be a contrast to Batman. Instead they doubled down on MoS' depiction of a distant, alien Superman and adopt a human POV of him that makes him look even more freakish from ground level. Then they try to juxtapose him with someone who is also freakish? It's so strange that there doesn't seem to be any thought put behind that dynamic other than "This one's very powerful, this one's a badass dude, ok pew pew pew pew."

[DavidSeven]

Yeah, I agree their viewpoints aren't developed at all. Snyder is not interested in that. He is interested in which guy is cooler. And I mean "cooler" in the most basic and unsophisticated sense. The film favors Wayne's POV for that reason alone, not for anything he actually believes. Interestingly, Bruce Wayne in Snyder's world really is a genuine womanizing playboy; Snyder likes this about him, so why make it an act? I don't think he gives a shit about Superman, besides the character's potential for mythological imagery.

That said, the intro, which is admittedly pretty good, promises a deeper exploration that goes unfulfilled. As you said, pitting their traditional ideologies against each other would be tough because Snyder screwed the Superman character so bad in the last movie. They'd probably have to re-frame both characters pretty significantly from how they exist in canon. But I would have been okay with that, because at least then we'd have a compelling and comprehensible first and second act. Instead, we're punished with two hours of noise and unintelligible dreams, and the two titans are just treated as puppets to Manchild McEvil. By the time they actually square off, it's all about Luthor's manipulation and coercion. To this day, I have no idea what Superman thinks of the "thousands of people" he killed, which they actually confirm directly in the movie.

[number8]

Interestingly, Bruce Wayne in Snyder's world really is a genuine womanizing playboy; Snyder likes this about him, so why make it an act?

Haha, I'd completely forgotten about that scene of him contemptuously leaving a naked faceless woman in his bed. Between that and quoting Dick Cheney to look tough, Snyder's idea of what makes a superhero cool seems to be in line with the base masculinity that drives '90s comics. I guess that explains the inclusion of Doomsday.

[Morris Schæffer]

Good points guys!

[megladon8]

I've always wanted to see (or write!) a Superman/Batman story exploring how both Metropolis and Gotham are reflections of NYC at around the same time, yet one is pitch black and pessimistic while the other is a bright near-utopia full of hope and wonder.

I feel like they missed an opportunity for something like this here.

[number8]

It's kinda funny that the cities are across each other here, separated only by a river.

[Ezee E]

It's kinda funny that the cities are across each other here, separated only by a river.

Isn't it basically the Bay Area?

[Dukefrukem]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGsrMaxx8N4

[Irish]

This dropped a lot more rapidly than I expected, but I don't think Warners is shitting their pants. At least not in the longer term.

It was always more product than movie and like any corporation who makes a product that underperforms, they will change their manufacturing process going forward. Any pants-shitting will eventually turn into a shrug.

We live in a marketplace where movies like Iron Man 2 and Thor: Dark World hit $600MM worldwide and their respective franchises are viewed as fine. Just dandy. (Did I say that already, somewhere? It feels like I might have said this already).

I suspect Warners will do now what Paramount did in the 70s, when Star Trek: The Movie met tepid reviews & box office. Keep the franchise, cut the budgets. (For awhile, every Star Trek movie had a slightly smaller budget than the previous installment, despite any one picture's success). My bet is that Warners will scale back set pieces, revise scripts, and reduce worldwide advertising for future DC movies. BvS' performance isn't nearly as much as a problem as BvS's outsized cost.

See also: http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/warner-bros-mulls-releasing-films-881265

I'm starting to find BO discussion horribly boring (eg: Scott Mendelsohn at Forbes). My only real question now is why so many people seem to have a deep, emotional investment in the failure of BvS on both sides of it.

[TGM]

I would assume they want it to fail in order to force a change of direction moving forward. If the movie succeeds, then we'll get more of the same, which many people don't want. But if it doesn't, they might rethink their strategy and alter their approach with future movies accordingly.

[Skitch]

Thats fine in theory, but another side effect of a big budget comic book movie being a flop is all studios reeling in budgets on future comic book films. We all know it will happen inevitably, and maybe it will be a good thing for the subgenre in the long run, but I don't want the bubble to pop. I know many cinephiles want it to end, but I love comic book movies. I just hope they've become established enough that the genre will continue in some capacity after the crash.

[Dukefrukem]

This dropped a lot more rapidly than I expected, but I don't think Warners is shitting their pants. At least not in the longer term.



They aren't at all.

http://io9.gizmodo.com/warner-bros-is-in-such-denial-over-batman-v-superman-1769391086


Now, with DC movies dated through 2020, the outcome has led to a flurry of rumors that the studio will make adjustments — maybe add a new producer? — rather than allow BvS director Zack Snyder to proceed with the two-part Justice League. But sources with firsthand knowledge of the situation say the studio has no such plans. One says the filmmakers naturally will evaluate what went wrong with BvS, but when it comes to Justice League, “we’re not going to take a movie that’s supposed to be one thing and turn it into a copycat of something else.”

[number8]

If the thing successfully sells a shit ton of product placement and licensed merchandising, who gives a shit about box office, really.

[Dukefrukem]

If the thing successfully sells a shit ton of product placement and licensed merchandising, who gives a shit about box office, really.

Doesn't that just add to the movie's budget so the studio doesn't have to shell out money at the start?

[number8]

Doesn't that just add to the movie's budget so the studio doesn't have to shell out money at the start?

But it's a continuous gain that doesn't stop after the opening weekend, no? It's all brand building, and the movie being bad isn't going to diminish the Batman and Superman brands. Even if people abandons this movie completely and the box office take is a disappointment, those people will still show up to the Justice League movie.

[Irish]

Remember the Cars movies from Pixar? The ones that nobody likes. The merchandizing from those movies makes Disney $2B a year (that's billion-with-a-b, per year). And that's just Cars, which is a relatively no-nothing brand.

[DavidSeven]

These movies have a high floor financially, no doubt. It's Batman and Superman for chrissakes. In that sense, it won't matter if they make a steaming pile. Profits will come.

But you make something good and culturally relevant, you're talking about hundreds of millions of extra cash in ticket receipts alone. The adjusted gross on The Dark Knight is north of $1.2 billion, and that didn't even bother with 3D or include Superman. This will barely cross $900M. You can't tell me that Jurassic World has a bigger underlying property than Batman and Superman together, yet that movie, which had like decent reviews, is going to make $700-800M more worldwide than BvS.

So yeah, I definitely agree with Irish that WB isn't shitting themselves. But they definitely left a ton of cash on the table and will likely continue to do so if Snyder keeps getting torched by critics.

[number8]

It's this scene. I know it's obscured enough to debate about in the comic (and it has been debated on for decades now), but clearly Snyder interprets it a certain way.

Oy. I was right.


I perceive it as him not killing directly, but if the bad guy’s are associated with a thing that happens to blow up, he would say that that’s not really my problem. A little more like manslaughter than murder, although I would say that in the Frank Miller comic book that I reference, he kills all the time. There’s a scene from the graphic novel where he busts through a wall, takes the guy’s machine gun…I took that little vignette from a scene in The Dark Knight Returns, and at the end of that, he shoots the guy right between the eyes with the machine gun.

[Skitch]

I was surprised people debate about that page in the book. Looks like his shoots him between the eyes to me.

[Dukefrukem]

Rumor of the day: WB to release R-Rated Batman v Superman movie to theaters.

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/batman_vs_superman/rumor-wb-to-release-extended-r-rated-version-of-batman-v-a137268

[Dukefrukem]

The quest for peace is almost better than Superman Returns.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l16eu4a6LaE

[Wryan]

Approved.

http://i.imgur.com/L7oVeYP.jpg

[Stay Puft]

Well I don't really have anything to add. The problems with this film have been well articulated throughout the thread.

What a fucking raw deal these DC characters are getting, though. I watched Man of Steel for the first time last weekend, before seeing BvS, and I was just flabbergasted. I don't think I've ever seen a film so utterly fail to grasp what a character is about. The film's world view actually (hilariously? depressingly?) aligns with General Zod's. Why, why, why would you hire somebody like Zack Snyder to make a Superman movie.

I should have backed out of BvS after that, but whatever... I saw it and it was bad. The part that really gets me, though, is that Batman and Superman fight only because Superman literally can't spit it out. That we watch Superman try to tell Batman, twice, what Lex is doing, but gets interrupted, and then just fights, only to finally spit it out when the fight scene is over, is the most inconceivably poor, contrived, awful sort of writing. (On top of all the other bad contrivances discussed throughout the thread, like why is Lex Luthor in this movie at all? and general problems like e.g. Superman telling Batman to stop being a vigilante when Superman also acts above the law, etc.)

Two different writers I follow sum this mess up beautifully:


My fav part is when Batman and Superman join forces after realizing that they are the same character.


I saw Batman v Superman and didn't hate it as much as I was supposed to. It was mostly confusing, honestly; my first edit pass on this script would have involved a machete. Writing is incredibly cheap, I'll never understand why you would film that script but I'm typing in the dark up in Seattle and not supine in the blood channels of some Los Angeles ziggurat. Maybe there is something about being drowned in unholy blood that illuminates their decision making process.

BvS is the most baffling nonsense I've seen in quite some time. Not a single artistic decision here makes any fucking sense to me.

[number8]

Half of this trailer are deleted scenes.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AO19XY2rqc

[Dukefrukem]

I'll give it a rewatch. Sure.

[Skitch]

Pre-ordered few days ago.

[[ETM]]

I hated it so much that I can't even stand a trailer anymore.

[Henry Gale]

All of that stuff looks interesting!

Honestly, it'd kinda make sense if most of its compelling scenes were deleted from the theatrical cut.

[DavidSeven]

They cut Jena Malone from the theatrical cut? I hate this movie even more now.

But seriously, how bad were these scenes that they were considered lesser than and superfluous to any other of the many nonsensical/dramatically inert scenes that were kept in.

[transmogrifier]

I need to watch these movies just so I can get in on the outrage!

Or failing that, being the sole defender of an under-appreciated masterwork.

I'm just itching to type the words "This is better than The Dark Knight."

[Dukefrukem]

They cut Jena Malone from the theatrical cut? I hate this movie even more now.

But seriously, how bad were these scenes that they were considered lesser than and superfluous to any other of the many nonsensical/dramatically inert scenes that were kept in.

The movie was already over 2.5 hours long. I'm guessing it was a run-time issue.

[Milky Joe]

I'm just itching to type the words "This is better than The Dark Knight."

It feels good. Real good.

[DavidSeven]

The movie was already over 2.5 hours long. I'm guessing it was a run-time issue.

There is almost no scene in this movie that couldn't have been cut. No cohesion or narrative logic exists to preserve. Give me Jena Malone over any Perry White scene, that dream sequence, the pointless early confrontation between Superman and Batman, any portion of the mud-thing (Doomsday) fight, or basically anything Eisenberg is doing. The fact that a lot of this junk was kept in probably says a lot about what they cut.

[number8]

There is almost no scene in this movie that couldn't have been cut. No cohesion or narrative logic exists to preserve. Give me Jena Malone over any Perry White scene, that dream sequence, the pointless early confrontation between Superman and Batman, any portion of the mud-thing (Doomsday) fight, or basically anything Eisenberg is doing. The fact that a lot of this junk was kept in probably says a lot about what they cut.

The trailer seems to suggest that a lot of the things that were cut are dialogue scenes that explain a lot of the confusing things surrounding the plot. So I don't think it's a case of the scenes in the theatrical cut being the better scenes and more about prioritizing delivering Justice League setups and images/iconographies Snyder found too precious to lose over the rigor of dramatic/exposition scenes.

[Dead & Messed Up]

The trailer seems to suggest that a lot of the things that were cut are dialogue scenes that explain a lot of the confusing things surrounding the plot. So I don't think it's a case of the scenes in the theatrical cut being the better scenes and more about prioritizing delivering Justice League setups and images/iconographies Snyder found too precious to lose over the rigor of dramatic/exposition scenes.

Exactly. This trailer shows Superman outside the broken senate building, which the film needed. This trailer shows people explaining that Batman's nature in the film is a recent development, which the film needed. The film didn't need Cyborg and motherboxes. This cut is probably not going to save the film, but it might at least give the film some merciful coherence.

[TGM]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5DAQlmJ4q0

[TGM]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrjneJvS6dk

[amberlita]

Jesus, you guys. I never thought *I* would be the one coming in here to defend a superhero movie to the rest of you but this really wasn't all that bad. I dare say a lot of it is quite good.

This is an awesome Batman movie and a shit Superman movie, not that I have liked any Superman movie since the 1978 film. The gripe about the needlessly convoluted plot is spot on, but I honestly didn't care because I generally got the gist and all the confusing crap revolved around Superman anyway and Superman sucks!! He's stupid and has been since they rebooted him! Of course the rationale for why he would hate Batman is contrived and garbage-y; his motivations for doing anything haven't been clear for like 3 films now. I'm sorry, Mr. Moody, do you want to help people or be left in solitude? Are you OK with killing or not? Also, I don't think you can love anyone if you hate yourself as much as Superman does, so the Lois Lane romance is total bullshit.

Oh god, speaking of Lois what a terrible inclusion in this film. She gets saved by Superman no less than 3 times and generally has no point of existing. She literally throws the Kryptonian spear into the ocean and 5 minutes later is like "oh shit, now i need that", dives in, and has to get rescued trying to unfuck her own mistake. They just needed her to be there to be sad when Superman dies. Which, btw, was hella dumb. I've always hated hated HATED that Clark Kent looks exactly like Superman and nobody notices. Then the dude literally dies the same day as Superman and nobody's like, "Huh. That's curious." The only people stupider than Superman are the people around Superman.

Anyway, back to the good stuff.

Ben Affleck is a BOSS! I had very low hopes for him but damn he makes a great Wayne. Maybe because Affleck strikes me as basically a real-life Bruce Wayne. I thought the training montage was pointless (because your muscles do not matter against a demigod) except for getting some sweet sweet shirtless scenes, but then Batman starts actually dragging Superman's body across the floor after owning his ass and I'm like "Hey! That tire training was foreshadowing!" and it made me smile.

Gal Gadot is strong and smart and mesmerizing and...she's in this movie because she wanted to get a picture back? Wha? Whatever. I'm excited for that character and her eyebrows, which are impeccably trimmed.

I am 110% grateful that the majority of the first 2 hours was quiet cat-and-mouse between Wayne, Kent, and Prince, philosophical musings, detective work, snarky comments by a British butler, and people hating on Superman in the media. Why is everyone bummed that this thing wasn't filled with 2 to 3 more boring retread action sequences? Like we don't get enough of that on the aggregate with these generally cookie-cutter superhero movies? Yeah, I'd much rather watch Batman threaten to make Superman bleed (which he totally did, btw!). Plus, the final action sequence with Doomsday was tired. I wouldn't want more of that. I would however like more of Gal Gadot in gorgeous dinner gowns.

There was a bunch more stupid crap but hey, it's a Snyder film, and you all have pointed them out already anyway.

[Henry Gale]

I like that you liked it, and I guess I never came in here to say that the Ultimate Edition / Extended Cut is significantly more complete, well-rounded and understandable film, but I still don't know if I can ever outright recommend someone watch it, other than to make sense of the discussions surrounding it. If the word you're looking for for the new cut is "better" then sure, take it, but even then I'd say it's going from something that's a 4-4.5 out of 10 (theatrically) to a 5.5 to 6 at best. The way I've explained it to people in the months since is that as a film it makes its case/argument a lot better for what it's trying to do, but it's still a dumb/losing battle. (In the sense that I am the judge ultimately ruling against it.) The first non-flashback scene (the one with Lois and Jimmy Olson), for instance, is stunningly longer and more thorough, and you actually get a sense of why any of it there narratively and thematically in a significant way, but it's also insanely violent and dour and you wonder why they ever scripted and shot it that way at all, knowing full well they were making a PG-13 movie with kids toys associated with it. Also, the new cut has Batfleck butt!! Wowee!

Anyway, long way of asking: Is the new cut the one you watched?

And Gadot's eyebrows are obviiiously always an impenetrable sell, but with Wonder Woman being a period piece we can't be sure if historical accuracy might get in the way of that.

[TGM]

Jesus, you guys. I never thought *I* would be the one coming in here to defend a superhero movie to the rest of you

*counts 4 yays and multiple people defending the movie in thread*

http://b3.ifrm.com/30343/137/0/e5228174//e5228174.png

[transmogrifier]

I don't think amberlita was claiming to be a lone crusader :)

[Skitch]

Hell yeah Amberlita! *high-5*

[amberlita]

I don't think amberlita was claiming to be a lone crusader :)

Heh, correct. Just noting the 4:1 weight of nays:yays and the generally extreme amount of hate from many folks.

Henry - it was the theatrical cut that I watched. I'm glad the newer one improves the coherence of the plot, but I really didn't take too much issue with it. Lex Luthor was trying to get Superman and Batman to hate each other and doing some wacky stuff to create a monster to kill Superman. Got it. That doesn't negate how much could have been cut or simplified or how stupid that is, but I didn't find it as distracting as others appear to have. Maybe because I don't think plot is ever anything these superhero films do well.

edit: also, I just want to add that I think it was a brilliant stroke to actually show Batman reacting to the events of the last Superman movie. There's a lot of chatter in Marvel movies about "what happened a year ago or in such n such city" and referencing events as they ripple through future films affecting character movitations, but it was really powerful to see that play out through another superhero's eyes.

And that fight sequence when Batman rescues Martha was pretty bitchin', right?! :D Like eleventy million times better than any Nolan fight sequence.

[Skitch]

Agree, agree, agree!

[Scar]

And that fight sequence when Batman rescues Martha was pretty bitchin', right?! :D Like eleventy million times better than any Nolan fight sequence.

Bane destroying Batman >>>>> that

[amberlita]

And that fight sequence when Batman rescues Martha was pretty bitchin', right?! :D Like eleventy million times better than any Nolan fight sequence.

Bane destroying Batman >>>>> that[/QUOTE]

Oof. Yeah this is correct. That fight was devastating. But I was really thinking more in regards to action choreography. Bane/Batman had a lot of emotional weight.

[number8]

That fight was better edited in the trailer for some reason.

[megladon8]

We watched this finally. It was, honestly, almost awe-inspiring how awful it was. A completely incoherent, nonsensical mess from start to finish. I have not seen a studio produced movie that was such a mishmash and jumble of random crap that doesn't come together in any way, at all.

Jesse Eisenberg's Lex Luthor is at the "what the hell were they thinking?" level of awful. Attempts to make amends for the destruction at the end of Man of Steel are rendered moot when it does even more (and worse). If all of Wonder Woman's scenes were cut, it would not change the film at all (not a slight against Gadot, but the writing and the shoehorning in of her character).

Jeremy Irons is one of several who feel embarrassed to be in it. Really the only positive takeaway I had was that Ben Affleck's Batman (both his performance and this new take on the character, drawing much more directly from Frank Miller) seems like it could have promise, and I am very curious about Affleck's Batman flick.

[Dukefrukem]

Did you watch the extended edition or theatrical?

[megladon8]

Extended.

[slqrick]

Is the extended worth watching? Actually at this point is any cut worth watching? Still have not seen the movie, morbidly curious to check it out since the theatrical version is laying around on HBO. The length is stopping me but I still feel the urge just to see this for some reason.

[Skitch]

The extended cut smooths out some jerky editing choices and character motivations, but its not an overwhelming game changer like directors cuts of Kingdom of Heaven or The Abyss or...etc.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Is the extended worth watching? Actually at this point is any cut worth watching? Still have not seen the movie, morbidly curious to check it out since the theatrical version is laying around on HBO. The length is stopping me but I still feel the urge just to see this for some reason.

The extended fixes a lot of plotting problems, especially surrounding Luthor's manipulation with the events in Africa, but it doesn't resolve larger issues like how the flick is a bout between Poutyman and Murderbat.

[Dukefrukem]

BOTH editions are overal terrible and not worth watching.

[Skitch]

OR you could watch either version and make up your own mind. It has its fans. I'm one of them. I don't deny its faults, but its not unwatchable.

[Dukefrukem]

Fine but we were asked whether it was worth watching.

[Skitch]

And I shared my opinion that it is. The most annoying thing about the BvS reviews are people making like its Catwoman/Barb Wire/Howard the Duck level awful. Its not THAT bad (in my opinion). Its more like The Incredible Hulk/Ghost Rider 2/Thor 2 level of filmmaking. Not worth getting in a fight about or defending, but still enjoyable enough for a comic book dork.

[TGM]

I fully acknowledge all of this movie's glaring flaws that have been pointed out all throughout this thread and everywhere else on the internet. Yet even so, I enjoyed the movie so much despite it all that this remains one of my favorites of the whole year. So I'm with Skitch, I say give it a shot. If this sorta trash is in any way up your alley, you might just enjoy it all the same as well. ;)

[Dukefrukem]

First of all, Ghost Rider 2 is amazing. Second of all, no one was questioning your thoughts on how one should view movies. We were asked a question.

[Skitch]

First of all, Ghost Rider 2 is amazing.

I fully agree!

And yet to be fully honest its also cinematic garbage. That I love.

[megladon8]

The extended cut smooths out some jerky editing choices and character motivations, but its not an overwhelming game changer like directors cuts of Kingdom of Heaven or The Abyss or...etc.

With the extended being the only version I've seen, I find it disconcerting that it smooths out editing / plotting problems from the original.

Was the original even watchable???

[Skitch]

With the extended being the only version I've seen, I find it disconcerting that it smooths out editing / plotting problems from the original.

Was the original even watchable???

Yes, but it clearly had studio demanded cuts for length, which caused an already overstuffed film to become needlessly choppy.

Still, my biggest gripe about all that is BvS, is that fucking trailer giving away every damn detail of the film. Hell the majority of trailers of the last decade have ruined their movies. I'm with Adam Driver.

Edit: I guess it comes down to your definition of watchable/unwatchable. I consider "unwatchable" to be MST3K fodder.

[Dukefrukem]

Unwatchable to me is something that didn't entertain me and something I would never watch again. Basically wasting 2.5 hours of my life. Wouldn't watch it again, in a group of people, making fun of it the entire time.

[Skitch]

So nothing is worth just one watch? Ill never watch 12 Years A Slave again, but I dont consider it unwatchable.

[Dukefrukem]

So nothing is worth just one watch? Ill never watch 12 Years A Slave again, but I dont consider it unwatchable.

Put it this way. My future self went back in time and told me to never waste my time with this wreck.

[Skitch]

Put it this way. My future self went back in time and told me to never waste my time with this wreck.

I look forward to your Justice League review opening weekend.

[Dead & Messed Up]

With the extended being the only version I've seen, I find it disconcerting that it smooths out editing / plotting problems from the original.

Was the original even watchable???

It was more a series of dislocated scenes than a story. The extended version actually "fixes" some major problems I had with the original cut.

First, the Africa stuff. In the original, you didn't see Superman stop a drone from killing innocent people. In the original, you don't see the bad guys burn innocent people so it looks like Superman killed them with heat vision (instead, it's just assumed by people that Superman killed them - on what grounds?). In the original, you don't learn that the black woman testifying before Holly Hunter is actually part of the conspiracy to frame Superman. In the original, you don't see the bad guy push the black woman to her death. So, in the original, the Africa stuff is just some sorta random plot by Lex to... what, exactly? In the extended version, it's more clear that he's trying to publicly depants Superman and hasten government intervention.

Second, the jail stuff. It's pretty garbage in either context, but in the original, you don't learn that Lex's goons are actually telling prisoners to shiv Batman-branded offenders. So the blame in the original is more on Batman for letting the Batman-brand lead to prisoner deaths, as opposed to the extended version, where Lex is culpable, because he's trying to give Superman reasons to hate Batman.

Third, and this is the most unconscionable omission to me, in the original, you don't learn that Lex lead-lined the exploding wheelchair, so you're just left to wonder why Superman couldn't see bombchair, which leads into a bigger cut, which is that, in the original, you don't see Superman helping people after the explosion. Instead, he looks at Lois, makes a sad face, and flies away.

There's more stuff, for sure, but those felt pretty goddamn important.

[Peng]

DCEU's strategy seems to be making its films worse and worse until you remember previous entries in a better light. So, yes, compared to Suicide Squad, BvS is definitely "watchable", if still incredibly sloppy. It's bad but I still liked the action scenes (at the end more than the logically frustrating titular fight).

[Grouchy]

I finally watched this. It's insultingly bad. Skitch said it's unfair that people are comparing it to classic duds like Howard the Duck or Barb Wire, and yeah, it's unfair because those movies are bad but they're at least fun. The endless barrage of expository scenes in this are edited together with no rhyme, reason or sense of pacing. And I even watched the extended cut because I was told, at least in that way, it was better!

Anything even remotely good about this film has to do with Affleck's Batman. The "death of the parents" scene, the Metropolis 9/11 scene, the Arkham-styled fight... Those were the only parts that gave me anything like what I wanted to see in a comic-book movie.

And agreed, the motivations behind the characters make my head hurt. Three hours of endless exposition and by the end it doesn't make any fucking sense! Batman wants to fight Superman because of the reckless destruction of the city, but as he progresses in his investigation and realizes LexCorp is behind some of the events the media is manipulating, he... what? Chooses to ignore that evidence? Superman wants to stop Batman because of the bat-branding (which is another pointless idea, why would Batman do something like that?) but then doesn't and he chooses to let him go with a warning. Lex Luthor... what does Lex even want? I guess they turned him into Wealthy Joker because they didn't care enough to give him motivation.

[Grouchy]

Why would Batman dream of himself shooting people down? This movie makes me want to break down and cry.

[Dukefrukem]

Why would Batman dream of himself shooting people down? This movie makes me want to break down and cry.

Well, technically, that was a premonition. Not a dream per-say. Out of all the Batman themed movies, that's the one I want to see. Kind of a mix of Flashpoint Paradox.

[Philip J. Fry]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=467ehoaGDaE

[Dukefrukem]

That was a tedious video to get through.

[Dukefrukem]

You're so deep Zack.

http://image.ibb.co/hchG1c/zack_snyder_bvs_vero_spear_109 8805.jpg

[Dead & Messed Up]

https://i1.wp.com/images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/24200000/Stan-stan-marsh-24278067-696-538.jpg