Daredevil Season 2

[Irish]

http://i.imgur.com/bq8npgA.jpg?1

"You know Karen's been asking questions. The cuts, the scrapes, the bruises."

"What do you tell her?"

"You have a drinking problem."

[chuckles] "That's horrible."

"Well, it's more plausible than you put on a devil suit and beat the shit out of strangers."

[Scar]

Cracking out right now.

[Scar]

As much as I love Cap, I think we know deep down I'm a Castle guy.

[MadMan]

I'm already on the fourth episode of Season 2. Love this show. The Punisher is a badass.

[Mara]

Jon Bernthal looks so much like he should have an Eastern European accent that I am a little surprised every time he speaks.

[Winston*]

Finding a lot of the dialogue pretty painful this season so far. Lots of on-the-nose theme spouting and, unlike Jessica Jones, it's the same themes we've seen in a thousand superhero things. Castle and Murdock on the roof was bad.

[Mara]

Finding a lot of the dialogue pretty painful this season so far. Lots of on-the-nose theme spouting and, unlike Jessica Jones, it's the same themes we've seen in a thousand superhero things. Castle and Murdock on the roof was bad.

Maybe, but that gun-hand chain-hand fight was MAJOR.

[Scar]

Maybe, but that gun-hand chain-hand fight was MAJOR.

This.

[Mara]

It reminded me of a certain stage all the boys went through when I was in second or third grade when they would act out / verbally describe ridiculously elaborate fights at recess. "And then I hit you with my chain hand like KAPOW. And the I punch you and you and you like POW POW POW!" I never understood why they were so into it. I get it now.

[MadMan]

I like the rooftop scene. The cemetery scene between the two of them was much better.

[Mara]

FISK

[Dukefrukem]

I'm not really liking the way they are portraying the Punisher through the first 5 episodes.

[Mara]

RE: Ninjas

I am really bothered by the inconsistencies of the zombie ninjas.

They have no heartbeats, but they bleed?

They have no heartbeat, but they can be killed? Having no heartbeat is the definition of being dead.

They have no heartbeats, but they need to breathe?

Since when is a heartbeat louder than an exhaled breath?

Because they have no heartbeat, Matt can't... smell them? They have no smell?

And wouldn't their footsteps make a noise?

Also, Matt can tell with his super-senses where a bottle of wine is dropping mid-air but can't tell where a 160-pound man is directly in front of him?

I MEAN.

[Dukefrukem]

I'm not really liking the way they are portraying the Punisher through the first 5 episodes.

No one else?

They didn't really establish how good of a marksman he is along with his military training. It was all done with dialog from the police. And then Daredevil beats the shit out of him and he eventually needs to be saved by him twice. So frustrating.

[Scar]

I just grew tired of all the ninjas. And Electra. Whenever she's on screen, I try not to tune out. Still need to watch the finale.

[Melville]

No one else?
I think they made the same choice with him as they did with Kingpin: both characters are far less stoic, more emotional, and more tragic in the show than they typically are in the comics. I think that makes for a slightly less interesting dynamic in their interactions with Daredevil, but it's not a bad choice overall.

I liked the season, though the finale was pretty bad.

[Skitch]

Thought after episode one: "Oh wow, so were not screwing around and dragging out the meeting of these two. NICE."

[number8]

Finally finished. Decided to take it slower this time and not just watch the entire season in one day. However, I was also less motivated to do so this time. The forward momentum is definitely less potent than the first season, and definitely not as addicting as Jessica Jones. Some thoughts:

- I like this approach to writing Frank Castle. I think one of the reasons why previous Punisher films have failed creatively has to do with the basic problem with Frank Castle, which is that if he's so stoic and competent and pragmatic, he's a pretty boring character to spend a lot of time around. You end up just watching a guy going about doing his day-to-day job, basically. It's one of the reasons why so many Punisher comics just feel disposable. One reason why Garth Ennis is considered such a phenomenal Punisher writer, though, is that he figured out a great formula, which is to make someone else the main character. Half of the Punisher comics he wrote would have a brand new protagonist in every arc, either directly going after Castle or making a Faustian pact with him. Greg Rucka's recent run, which was also great, did the exact same thing, making the story revolve around three original main characters and having Punisher just move in and out of their lives like mother nature. This show's smart enough to pair him up with Karen Page in that manner, and it works great. But I honestly have low expectations if they're planning a spin-off series that centers on him.

- The problem is with the directing. The dialogue all talk about how Castle's MO is to attack with military precision, but what we're seeing is the complete opposite. In the shootout scenes, Castle is often standing without cover, shooting a gun one-handed while screaming. He doesn't seem to be very prepared, either. In the third episode, he blows up a bunch of bikes and calls out an entire gang while he's the middle of a fight and trapped on the rooftop of a building full of civilians. Maybe he's so badass that he's confident he can kill them all as they go up to him, but was that the extent of his plan?? No camping spots or traps at all? Compare that to a similar introduction to the Punisher in Garth Ennis' Punisher MAX #1, where he lures an angry mafia family out of a house with one shot, but has already set up claymores in the lawn and perched behind a brick wall with a semi-automatic. Here, his action scenes often look more primal than calculated, which wouldn't be a problem if they hadn't established something else in setting him up.

- Bernthal kills it so hard, though. The cemetery monologue is so long-winded that it could've been a drag of a scene, but Bernthal's so compelling to watch that it was believable.

- I love how a minor character in Jessica Jones (Reyes) is a major character in this and a major character (Hogarth) is a minor character. Both of the events surrounding those two would undoubtedly have an effect on JJ season 2, right?

- The big baddie of this season, who gets to kill Elektra and push Daredevil over the edge in the big finale, is someone we never learned anything about and was some random ninja that was Fisk's lackey in the first season? Whose brilliant idea was that. They should have reversed the plot of the last two episodes and made the Hand stuff the B-plot, then actually end a season with the story they set up in the beginning. Instead, we got a really dumb climax with every character on the show just somehow convening in an abandoned warehouse. It's absurd.

- That's the problem with this season. It's just less coherent, and the main issue with it is that it's thematically empty. The first season's conflict between Murdock and Fisk work so well because of its undertones of classism and gentrification's differing approaches to tackling crime and poverty in disenfranchised neighborhoods, and there was so much to play with there. Jessica Jones was even better because that conflict was about misogyny and sexual oppression and there's even more stuff to play with there. This one's just.... I dunno, drug dealers and ninjas? There's not much going on. I thought they could have done some interesting things with the idea of death sentences, but they immediately blew their entire wad on that theme in a single conversation in like the second episode, before introducing Elektra as a second contrast. Then they introduced the idea of trying Castle in Delaware for the death penalty which I though was a fantastic use of irony, but that idea went nowhere so quickly that I'm not even sure the writers got the irony. Very disappointing.

- The idea that being good at research makes you qualified to write editorials for a major newspaper is so insane that it was more painful to watch than Stick's torture scene. What the fuck was that "You're a New Yorker, you are a hero just by living here" shit? If someone publishes an article like that, Gothamist would rip it apart and make Karen a famous idiot in two seconds.

[Mara]

Halfway through the season I was ready to declare this better than season 1, but the show decided to run off the rails in a way that tempered my enjoyment.

I really liked Frank Castle as a character, Elektra, and Fisk. Murdock is best when he is going toe-to-toe with one person he can't (or won't) outsmart and outfight in three seconds. Pitting him against a horde of faceless, unmotivated zombie ninjas was booooooring.

I also liked that this season made Murdock so unlikeable in his private life. The easier it is to root for him, the less interesting the story is. Make him complex and kind of dickish and I am much more invested.

This season also showed great improvement in both acting and storylines for Karen and Foggy, who I disliked last year. This season was much meatier for female characters in general, who were ill-served in the first season.

Overall, a mixed bag.

[number8]

Ah, yes! I forgot to elaborate on Foggy. His character (and Henson's acting) was a huge improvement. He's got pretty good chemistry with Rosario Dawson, too.

[Dukefrukem]

Finally finished. Decided to take it slower this time and not just watch the entire season in one day. However, I was also less motivated to do so this time. The forward momentum is definitely less potent than the first season, and definitely not as addicting as Jessica Jones. Some thoughts:

- I like this approach to writing Frank Castle. I think one of the reasons why previous Punisher films have failed creatively has to do with the basic problem with Frank Castle, which is that if he's so stoic and competent and pragmatic, he's a pretty boring character to spend a lot of time around. You end up just watching a guy going about doing his day-to-day job, basically. It's one of the reasons why so many Punisher comics just feel disposable. One reason why Garth Ennis is considered such a phenomenal Punisher writer, though, is that he figured out a great formula, which is to make someone else the main character. Half of the Punisher comics he wrote would have a brand new protagonist in every arc, either directly going after Castle or making a Faustian pact with him. Greg Rucka's recent run, which was also great, did the exact same thing, making the story revolve around three original main characters and having Punisher just move in and out of their lives like mother nature. This show's smart enough to pair him up with Karen Page in that manner, and it works great. But I honestly have low expectations if they're planning a spin-off series that centers on him.

Somewhat disagree. If they made a John Wick Punisher movie, it would be sublime. But even in John Wick he gets captured (but at least plans well enough so he has buddies helping him out). In this series he has zero allies.



- The problem is with the directing. The dialogue all talk about how Castle's MO is to attack with military precision, but what we're seeing is the complete opposite. In the shootout scenes, Castle is often standing without cover, shooting a gun one-handed while screaming. He doesn't seem to be very prepared, either. In the third episode, he blows up a bunch of bikes and calls out an entire gang while he's the middle of a fight and trapped on the rooftop of a building full of civilians. Maybe he's so badass that he's confident he can kill them all as they go up to him, but was that the extent of his plan?? No camping spots or traps at all? Compare that to a similar introduction to the Punisher in Garth Ennis' Punisher MAX #1, where he lures an angry mafia family out of a house with one shot, but has already set up claymores in the lawn and perched behind a brick wall with a semi-automatic. Here, his action scenes often look more primal than calculated, which wouldn't be a problem if they hadn't established something else in setting him up.


Fucking agree. The biggest problem I have is we are not given enough information on why Punisher is so feared and what makes him so good. We hear stories, but even the initial shootout was shown from inside the safe-house. So we just see bullets flying and thats all. We dont know anything of what made Punisher so good at tracking them down or the execution in the shootout. Word of mouth doesn't work well here. And by episode 3 he's already incarcerated. Ugh.

[[ETM]]

Didn't Daredevil interrupt him in the precise moment when he got the bikers out in the open and was going to mow them all down?
I thought the building siege was all Murdock's fault.

[MadMan]

;553485']Didn't Daredevil interrupt him in the precise moment when he got the bikers out in the open and was going to mow them all down?
I thought the building siege was all Murdock's fault.

That's what I thought, too.

[Dukefrukem]

Weird. On Episode 10, the scene where they are speaking French at the bar did not show any subtitles for me. Anyone else?

[number8]

The closed captioning is translated if you really want to know what they're saying but it's really just irrelevant small talk.

[Morris Schæffer]

Amazing how quickly I am onboard with this after just two episodes. Hairs on the back went up when the DA guy mentions his nickname the first time. My brother had no idea Punisher was in this and I was just waiting for that moment. I'm not even a Punisher guy per se, but in this show it just sounds so damn mouth-wateringly exciting. It's basically Daredevil v Punisher at least insofar as the first two eps are concerned and those first two fights are outstanding because they're evenly matched, because in the end they're just two relatively down to earth superheroes and it sort of emphasizes how daft Batman v Superman sounds in the first place.

[Dukefrukem]

I didnt like the way they handled the Punisher in this thus I didn't like this season very much.

[Morris Schæffer]

I didnt like the way they handled the Punisher in this thus I didn't like this season very much.

Well, I guess he seems spot on so far, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to discern anyway how he'll deviate from the comics. Although there's no reason he couldn't deviate if done right.

[Grouchy]

I think Duke's problem might be that in the Garth Ennis run he's established as such a great strategist and soldier that him getting caught and tortured by a bunch of clichéd Irish mobsters doesn't ring true. But whatever, it didn't bother me. It's early days Punisher after all.

Also, in that same run it's mentioned a bunch of times how he goes to great pains to avoid collateral damage to civilians (hell, that's the entire premise behind Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe IIRC) which would make the hospital shootout problematic.

I'm on Episode 4 right now and the season seems like a lot of fun. The dialogue is still terrible, though.

[Grouchy]

This may sound silly, but it never occured to me how a consequence of Murdock's powers would be an innate ability to crack open safes. I don't remember any Daredevil writer ever picking up on that.

[[ETM]]

I think Duke's problem might be that in the Garth Ennis run he's established as such a great strategist and soldier that him getting caught and tortured by a bunch of clichéd Irish mobsters doesn't ring true.

Uh, he planned all of that in advance because he needed to get in and get information? The only time he was completely out of control was when he was knocked out in the elevator during the biker gang sequence.

[Dukefrukem]

Nah Grouchy read me right. Even the "planning" that he does do, is lazily portrayed through a barrage of bullets through windows. What strategic planning is needed for that to occur other than to be outside a house when all the bad guys are in 1 room?

[TGM]

Posting what I posted on another forum, so I might be repeating some things already posted in this thread, but basically, I do agree with a lot of the criticisms brought up, yet still found this to be pretty enjoyable all the same:

Alright, so finished up season 2 last night, and yeah, my reaction overall is not too dissimilar from my reaction to Batman v Superman. Along the way, it sorta becomes a bit of a mess, as the show tries to tackle way too much. The Daredevil v Punisher stuff is handled relatively quickly in the season, but there's a whole lot more going on with his character that probably deserved more of our attention, but then they decided to insert Elektra into the series, and give us another entire season's worth of story dealing with her and the Hand. And none of the stuff involving her ever really intersects naturally with the Punisher stuff, so we've got these two radically different stories we keep jumping back and forth between, when really, they probably shoulda just spent this whole season giving us the Punisher story, and held off on Elektra for season 3.

It becomes a bit frustrating seeing Matt pulled away from the Punisher storyline to focus on Elektra on those ongoings, until the Punisher stuff wraps up almost entirely without Daredevil's involvement, and then one final moment with Punisher coming to Matt's aid while he deals with the Hand is shoehorned in at the last minute, and that's the extent of any real overlap between the two stories.

I get that jamming these two stories can create this chaotic state and drive Daredevil to his overwhelming boiling point, but it comes to the detriment of seamless storytelling. There was really only one big goal in the first season, which had a much clearer focus, where as this one is a lot more scatterbrained (and the inclusion of ninjas provides for an entire world of inconsistencies as it regards Daredevil's abilities). But that all said, the actors all sell the hell out of this, and are really what make this work. All our returning cast up their game from last season, and the newcomers playing Punisher and Elektra both fit in quite nicely along with everyone else.

So yeah, it was a bit of a mess and tries to do way too much all at once, but like with BvS, I enjoyed myself with it quite a bit regardless. Still looking forward to season 3, but this time they might benefit from scaling back a little and not trying to cram too much in a single season.

[Morris Schæffer]

Wow wow wow that stairwell fight in episode 3 was astonishing! Super violent season so far. Loving it!

[Morris Schæffer]

This is so fucking insanely awesome. Those fights just keep on getting more impressive, Jon Bernthal is a force to be reckoned with as Punisher. That prison fight was insane and now the hospital is getting overrun by ninjas!!!!

I can't wait to see where it goes next.

[Scar]

The ninjas get old.

[number8]

Things I never thought I'd ever say. "Enough with the goddamn ninjas. This is boring."

[Scar]

Things I never thought I'd ever say. "Enough with the goddamn ninjas. This is boring."

EXACTLY!

[Grouchy]

But doesn't that sort of come with the Daredevil territory? In every run I've ever read (Miller, Bendis, Brubaker's) he fights a whole lot of ninjas.

Anyway, I finished the season. They should fire everyone who writes dialogue for this but I was still pretty entertained. I was really surprised at what a good Punisher Bernthal makes, even if he deviates from the Garth Ennis version of the character that I love.

The ending is predictable but that doesn't make it less effective. I really look forward to the return of Kingpin - even with such a great cast, D'Onofrio still towers above everyone.

Did anyone else think that the journalist character is like a discount Ben Urich? I never liked that they got rid of such a major Daredevil supporting character so soon in Season 1, and it looks like they wrote themselves into a corner and still needed someone to represent the press.

[Morris Schæffer]

The ninjas get old.

They sure piled on a helluva lot of them in the last 2 eps. I see now what you and 8 meant and I agree.

Still, kickass season. I think I heard my own breathing when Matt told Karen the truth.

That thing with the Clancy Brown character came out of nowhere though.