Game of Thrones (Season 6)

[Dukefrukem]

http://www.ew.com/sites/default/files/1448294563/JS%20-%20Tease.jpeg

[Dukefrukem]

Temporary placing this here until we have a 2016 Subforum.

I thought that poster was fan-made at first.

[number8]

Trolling the fanbase is the most effective form of early marketing.

[Mara]

"Hey, someone made an early thread about the next Game of Thrones season. They're PRE-GAMING. HAHAHAHAA"

[Dukefrukem]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxI8aPISq8I

[Ezee E]

Oh yeah, Bran Stark...

[Dukefrukem]

Oh yeah, Bran Stark...

LOL Exactly.

[number8]

What, we're going to pretend that it's a coincidence that the show's worst season happened to not have Bran in it?

#BranStarkBestStark

[Watashi]

Yeah, Bran's storyline is the one I'm most interested in. I don't care if Jon is alive or not.

[Ezee E]

What, we're going to pretend that it's a coincidence that the show's worst season happened to not have Bran in it?

#BranStarkBestStark

Ha. I think first and second season are far worse than the last season.

I'm totally fine with Jon Snow being dead, there would be plenty of characters to still focus on. And that doesn't have to include Bran Stark. I guess a few Hodors is fine.

[Gizmo]

I guess a few Hodors is fine.

http://www.hodoronhodor.com/frontCover.png

http://www.hodoronhodor.com/backCover.png

full book available here (http://www.hodoronhodor.com/)

[Grouchy]

Yeah, Bran's storyline is the one I'm most interested in. I don't care if Jon is alive or not.
It takes all kinds, I guess...

[Irish]

Ok. On one hand, I feel badly for GRRM. He's up against it in a terrible way.

On the other hand ... LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOL

http://grrm.livejournal.com/465247.html

[Spinal]

Ok. On one hand, I feel badly for GRRM. He's up against it in a terrible way.

On the other hand ... LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOL

http://grrm.livejournal.com/465247.html

Yeah, this is getting pretty awkward at this point.

[D_Davis]

He should just get Brian Sanderson to finish the series. Sanderson's writing is just as "good" as Martin's, and Sanderson would have the whole series done by lunch tomorrow.

In the meantime, JM McDermott completed his low/dark fantasy trilogy last year - The Dogsland Trilogy. Anyone looking for a gritty, highly atmospheric, and lyrical (I'm talking Lord Dunsany levels of style) fantasy series should check it out.

[Dukefrukem]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuH3tJPiP-U

[number8]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PtOAnZxB8s

[Dukefrukem]

Bwhahahhahahahhahahah adsas;ldjh;lakfj;klshgk;lagkl

[Dukefrukem]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EI0ib1NErqg

[Ezee E]

Looks great. Obviously.

[Ezee E]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/archive/1/1c/20160226073939!GoT_season_6_of ficial_poster.jpg

[Grouchy]

This show never lets go. That final scene.

[Ezee E]

They somehow managed to get every character on screen this time, but it sure felt rushed doing so. We'll have to accept that there will be episodes that characters get skipped over.

Anyway, is it really shocking of the Melisandre reveal at the end? I guess I feel like I already saw that happen in my mind's eye.

[Dukefrukem]

are you guys messing with me?

[Dukefrukem]

Yeah I was pretty impressed with the balance. Here. I'm convinced we haven't seen the end of Jon Snow.

[bac0n]

They somehow managed to get every character on screen this time, but it sure felt rushed doing so. We'll have to accept that there will be episodes that characters get skipped over.

Anyway, is it really shocking of the Melisandre reveal at the end? I guess I feel like I already saw that happen in my mind's eye.

Team Bran's fate remains conspicuously unrevealed. I was hoping to find out what happened tho them more than what happened to Jon Snow, actually, cuz, you know, Hodor.

[Scar]

Hodor.

[Dukefrukem]

Team Bran's fate remains conspicuously unrevealed. I was hoping to find out what happened tho them more than what happened to Jon Snow, actually, cuz, you know, Hodor.

I caught the first 5 seconds of next week's teaser and looks to be a Bran episode. Kinda funny how much h'es aged since he didn't show up at all in Season 5.

[Spinal]

I'm convinced we haven't seen the end of Jon Snow.

Well, his body is still hanging around conspicuously. There was no closure. No 'his watch has ended'. They used his death as a cliffhanger, unlike past deaths where they gave you an episode to let it sink in. The two beings you'd want to be there are there (Ghost and Melisandre). Davos teased her powers (you haven't seen what I've seen her do). Something's definitely up.

I'm still assuming that it's a standard Joseph Campbell death and rebirth situation we're dealing with.

[number8]

I was telling my friends last night that it would've been great if there was a "leak" that Kit Harington is scheduled to appear in 5 episodes this season and people get hyped for it and then he spends those 5 episodes just playing a corpse on a table before someone finally burns Jon's body.

[Spinal]

Anyway, is it really shocking of the Melisandre reveal at the end? I guess I feel like I already saw that happen in my mind's eye.

Not shocking, but really unsettling considering Melisandre's absolute confidence in past seasons. For me, it was less about this character not being what she seemed (standard witch lore should tell us that), but more about watching the breakdown of the last character we would ever think could lose faith.

Also, I was trying to remember if Melisandre was wearing her necklace in all of Van Houten's past nude scenes. I might have to watch them all again to make sure.

[Lazlo]

I was telling my friends last night that it would've been great if there was a "leak" that Kit Harington is scheduled to appear in 5 episodes this season and people get hyped for it and then he spends those 5 episodes just playing a corpse on a table before someone finally burns Jon's body.

Yeah, I had the comparison to Hammill only being in 30 seconds of Force Awakens run through my head as Harington's name came up in the opening credits.

Almost thought that, if he was being resurrected in this episode, it would been super fun and troll-y for them to remove his name from the open and the first closing credit be "with Kit Harington as Jon Snow".

[Spinal]

Liam Cunningham was hilarious in this episode, with the way he responded to Thorne. Brilliant actor.

[number8]

Also, I was trying to remember if Melisandre was wearing her necklace in all of Van Houten's past nude scenes. I might have to watch them all again to make sure.

She was not.


Liam Cunningham was hilarious in this episode, with the way he responded to Thorne. Brilliant actor.

Speaking of hilarious, that Dothraki scene was very Mel Brooks.

[Scar]

She was not.

I'll take one for the team and double check.

[Ezee E]

OR... he is resurrected, and then immediately killed by a Walker, and burned.

[Henry Gale]

She was not.


I'll take one for the team and double check.

I just did a Google Image search of the character and it seems like she has it on in almost every scene that pops up except for screencaps from a more recent nude scene, which, considering the nature of such a scene, makes sense to slip up creatively. Assuming she even knew its significance at the time, Van Houten / the-powers-that-be could've just forgotten, or the director of that episode and other people in charge of such things never got the memo.

But she even wore it during her shadow birth! That's commitment!

[Spinal]

I just did a Google Image search of the character and it seems like she has it on in almost every scene that pops up except for screencaps from a more recent nude scene, which, considering the nature of such a scene, makes sense to slip up creatively. Assuming she even knew its significance at the time, Van Houten / the-powers-that-be could've just forgotten, or the director of that episode and other people in charge of such things never got the memo.


Might have to pull a George Lucas and 'Special Edition' it back in.

[Grouchy]

Not shocking, but really unsettling considering Melisandre's absolute confidence in past seasons. For me, it was less about this character not being what she seemed (standard witch lore should tell us that), but more about watching the breakdown of the last character we would ever think could lose faith.
It didn't strike me as a loss of confidence moment, though. She seemed like she was just going to sleep and removed it the way I remove my contact lenses.

[number8]

This is assuming the necklace has anything to do with it, which I didn't even think it did until people started talking about checking previous scenes.

[DavidSeven]

It didn't strike me as a loss of confidence moment, though. She seemed like she was just going to sleep and removed it the way I remove my contact lenses.

I don't think it was as innocuous as that. The show seemed to be strongly suggesting a loss of faith. Stannis is gone, and none of Melisandre's visions have come to fruition. The many sacrifices and bad deeds for the sake of fulfilling the Red God's prophesies have been for naught. What point is there now to keep up appearances? With Stannis gone, her external confidence in her own powers will not convince anyone, most of all herself, of anything. The scene certainly conveys a sense of resignation that she has led a very long, and suddenly meaningless, existence.

[Spinal]

This is assuming the necklace has anything to do with it, which I didn't even think it did until people started talking about checking previous scenes.

I'll have to watch it again. I may have read into it.

[Russ]

Speaking of hilarious, that Dothraki scene was very Mel Brooks.
I'm curious, how so? The tossed-off vulgarities?

[Ezee E]

I don't think it was as innocuous as that. The show seemed to be strongly suggesting a loss of faith. Stannis is gone, and none of Melisandre's visions have come to fruition. The many sacrifices and bad deeds for the sake of fulfilling the Red God's prophesies have been for naught. What point is there now to keep up appearances? With Stannis gone, her external confidence in her own powers will not convince anyone, most of all herself, of anything. The scene certainly conveys a sense of resignation that she has led a very long, and suddenly meaningless, existence.

All done without any dialog whatsoever. Well done on Carice's part for that role.

[bac0n]

I wonder also if she is trying to shed her younger appearance, to hide from what she's done. I'm pretty sure that Davos is unaware that she convinced Stannis to burn his daughter at the stake - who Davos was very fond of. When/if he finds out....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[number8]

I'm curious, how so? The tossed-off vulgarities?

No, when the Khal said nothing is better than seeing a woman naked for the first time, and everyone started listing better things.

[Grouchy]

No, when the Khal said nothing is better than seeing a woman naked for the first time, and everyone started listing better things.
Are you sure this didn't happen in your (quite gifted) imagination?

Anyhow, this article (http://wikiofthrones.com/359/game-of-thrones-finally-revealed-melisandres-big-secret/) deals with the final scene. I didn't read into it as much as DavidSeven did but maybe he's right. I also assume the necklace has the spell and that every nude scene of hers without it must be a goof.

[Grouchy]

No, no, I heard that part, I understood that you said the rest of the Dothraki started mentioning the other four things, which would've been awesome.

[Grouchy]

By the way, IIRC, the Dothraki now plan to confine Danerys to a sort of monastery, right?

[number8]

They did. Here's the full exchange:

Khal: Seeing a beautiful woman naked for the first time... What is better than that?
Dothraki #1: Killing another Khal.
Khal: ...Yes, killing another Khal.
Dothraki #2: Conquering a city and taking her people as slaves and taking her idols back to Vaes Dothrak.
Dothraki #1: Breaking a wild horse and forcing it to submit to your will.
Khal: Seeing a beautiful woman naked for the first time is among the five best things in life!

Anyway, I found that a very History of the World-ish joke.

[Grouchy]

Hahahah I must have missed that somehow then. That's indeed brilliant.

Starting with Season 5 I've been watching Game of Thrones with friends, cooking great dinners and drinking wine. It's a great anti-Sunday plan.

[Spinal]

By the way, IIRC, the Dothraki now plan to confine Danerys to a sort of monastery, right?

The widows of Khals are supposed to live out the rest of their lives amongst the Dosh khaleen, which is a bunch of old crones in the Dothraki capital that are leaders and seers. Remember in Season 1 when Daenerys had to go eat the heart to prove her suitability to carry Drogo's child? She was being presented to the Dosh khaleen.

[Spinal]

They did. Here's the full exchange:

Khal: Seeing a beautiful woman naked for the first time... What is better than that?
Dothraki #1: Killing another Khal.
Khal: ...Yes, killing another Khal.
Dothraki #2: Conquering a city and taking her people as slaves and taking her idols back to Vaes Dothrak.
Dothraki #1: Breaking a wild horse and forcing it to submit to your will.
Khal: Seeing a beautiful woman naked for the first time is among the five best things in life!

Anyway, I found that a very History of the World-ish joke.

Very funny scene. It also brought to mind Monty Python's Spanish Inquisition scene. And it was a nice way to take the edge off another scene with the lingering threat of sexual assault.

[number8]

I like the implication that the Dothraki are kind of morons. It makes it more believable that she can just say "btw I'm Drogo's wife" and they're immediately "oh my bad no rape then."

[Grouchy]

Eh, I don't think they're morons, just tribal people.

Presumably they'd heard of Khal Drogo before. They might even have heard that his widow went missing. He was established as a big shot in Season 1.

[Ezee E]

I like the implication that the Dothraki are kind of morons. It makes it more believable that she can just say "btw I'm Drogo's wife" and they're immediately "oh my bad no rape then."

Yeah, this was one of the worse written pieces I've seen that it was quite laughable. The earlier part about taming a wild horse was effectively funny. Here was just to be able to transition from A to B on the map for Daenerys easier.

[number8]

Presumably they'd heard of Khal Drogo before. They might even have heard that his widow went missing. He was established as a big shot in Season 1.

What's moronic is not the fact that he does an about-face, it's that they just believed her immediately. Like, the Khal didn't even have any suspicion at all; he just went "Oh shit, a Khaleesi" in an instant. Maybe we can be generous and assume that Dany's the first person in however many years since Drogo's death to actually try to make the claim, but it still comes across conveniently silly to me how fast that scene turned.

[Grouchy]

What's moronic is not the fact that he does an about-face, it's that they just believed her immediately. Like, the Khal didn't even have any suspicion at all; he just went "Oh shit, a Khaleesi" in an instant. Maybe we can be generous and assume that Dany's the first person in however many years since Drogo's death to actually try to make the claim, but it still comes across conveniently silly to me how fast that scene turned.
Fair enough. Maybe (I haven't read the novels) the Dothraki language is just too rare to be learned outside of the community. They seem primitive enough not to have it in written form.

[Spinal]

Yeah, that was my interpretation. That it was her mastery of the language that caused them to believe her.

[Scar]

Yeah, that was my interpretation. That it was her mastery of the language that caused them to believe her.

Plus, how many blonde Khaleesi's are out there? That combined with her knowledge of the language are a pretty convincing.

[Mara]

I thought it was kind of interesting that the Dothraki did not give a flying crap about her own titles and accomplishments (which; I love Daenerys but that list is getting to be a mouthful, consider an edit) but are brought up short by her connection to a powerful man. It's very... Dothraki.

[amberlita]

If I recall, I think she mentioned "blahblah Khaleesi blah" during her rattling off of titles, but this didn't seem to register until she specifically said she was the widow of Khal Drogo. So, yeah...maybe they are stupid (or just stopped paying attention to her laundry list of names).

[Dukefrukem]

If I recall, I think she mentioned "blahblah Khaleesi blah" during her rattling off of titles, but this didn't seem to register until she specifically said she was the widow of Khal Drogo. So, yeah...maybe they are stupid (or just stopped paying attention to her laundry list of names).

She did. She mentioned Queen several times. The translation was weird though. The first two Khaleesi's translated to Queen and the third translated to Khaleesi.
Whatever.

[Grouchy]

Well, that's because "Khaleesi" is the actual Dothraki word for "queen", not a title. So she said "queen (khaleesi) of this", "queen (khaleesi) of the other" and when she came to her Dothraki queendom I assume they just left it untranslated.

[number8]

If I recall, I think she mentioned "blahblah Khaleesi blah" during her rattling off of titles, but this didn't seem to register until she specifically said she was the widow of Khal Drogo. So, yeah...maybe they are stupid (or just stopped paying attention to her laundry list of names).

Khaleesi is the Dothraki word for queen, so being a khaleesi doesn't necessarily mean you're a Dothraki queen.

But then again...


She did. She mentioned Queen several times. The translation was weird though. The first two Khaleesi's translated to Queen and the third translated to Khaleesi.
Whatever.

It's because the first two times, she's referring to being a queen of other people (Mereen, Andals and the First Men) so it's just a translation, while in the third she's specifically saying she's a Khaleesi of the Dothraki sea. So yeah, point stands that they should've realized that she's a Khal's wife when she mentioned the great green sea. Khal Before Picture was probably just thinking of her naked and not paying attention.

[number8]

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13076964_534310096749304_37035 12726894519867_n.jpg?oh=dc2c9f eb862c971b3f79da6c995447c4&oe=57B189D0

[Scar]

Yeah, I'm stealing that.

[Dukefrukem]

HA!

[Ezee E]

Well done. It sure kept me waiting for the cut to black to happen with NOTHING.

However, the standout still remains Ramsay Snow as probably the most villanious character I may have ever seen in any medium.

And what is The Mountain called now anyway? Can't wait to see him (it?) cut loose.

And totally glanced over the dragons.

Not a dry spot in the episode really, and that even includes Bran Stark lol.

[Spinal]

Amazing episode. Just amazing.

[Ivan Drago]

I want to see a spinoff show where Tyrion picks up a job as a dragon whisperer.

[Spinal]

Funniest line:

"I do not tell dwarf jokes."

[[ETM]]

It's getting more ridiculous each time with senseless and mind blowingly dumb deaths. This episode is one of the worst offenders. So, so stupid.

[Dukefrukem]

I completely forgot about Theon's sister trying to save him. Where has that story line been?

[Dukefrukem]

BTW, I'm impressed by all the people here watching this show live instead of DVR (HBOgo). It might be a record.

[[ETM]]

I completely forgot about Theon's sister trying to save him. Where has that story line been?

Theron was sleeping with the dogs already, if I recall correctly.

[number8]

BTW, I'm impressed by all the people here watching this show live instead of DVR (HBOgo). It might be a record.

Well, I do watch it on HBO Go. They put it up for streaming 9 pm sharp.

[Dukefrukem]

Well, I do watch it on HBO Go. They put it up for streaming 9 pm sharp.

No shit? Cool. I always thought it was a 24 hour delay.

[number8]

No shit? Cool. I always thought it was a 24 hour delay.

HBO has always put up all their shows immediately, with the exception of shows like John Oliver and Bill Maher (and now After the Throne) which are taped on the day so they need some time after airing to prep it for streaming and thus get put up about 3-4 hours later.

[number8]

;555288']It's getting more ridiculous each time with senseless and mind blowingly dumb deaths. This episode is one of the worst offenders. So, so stupid.

We talkin' bout Beylon, right? That's the only one that struck me as moronically written and came out of nowhere.

Anything with Ramsay is expected and laboriously foreshadowed last season.

[Dukefrukem]

Yeh I still don't understand the Beylon death. What's being planned over there?

[number8]

I understand they're Ironborn and they're all supposed to have steel balls handclamped by Teddy Roosevelt or whatever but the idea of letting an elderly king walk to his bedroom on a suspension bridge in the middle of a rainstorm without a single guard is one of the dumbest things I've seen on this show.

[Spinal]

Yeh I still don't understand the Beylon death. What's being planned over there?

Kingsmoot!

[Spinal]

;555288']It's getting more ridiculous each time with senseless and mind blowingly dumb deaths. This episode is one of the worst offenders. So, so stupid.

Not sure how people can still be complaining about this in Season 6. That IS the show. It's not senseless. It's the show's theme. People struggle for power. People get killed. People plot against each other and backstab, all the while ignoring the greater threat coming from the North. That's what the show is about. If that doesn't appeal to you, you can always watch Veep, I guess.

[number8]

Kingsmoot!

Intentionally timed in an election year.

[bac0n]

I'm finding it interesting how many posts I've seen spoiling the ending to this episode I have run into today. No attempts to warn people, just right out in your face announcing what happened. Several on twitter, several on Facebook, hell even the front page of CNN.com. Not by people, but by media organizations.

It's as if the assumption moving forward for people is that if you don't want an episode of GoT spoiled for you, it's your responsibility to disconnect yourself from the Internet until you watch the damned episode.

[Spinal]

Time Warner owns HBO. Time Warner owns CNN.

It's almost as if there's an intentional effort to get you to buy an HBO subscription. :|

[Dukefrukem]

Wow. I went to CNN.come and the headline is: "GoT Spoiler: XXXXXXXXX" As if putting "GoT Spoiler:" is enough for your eyes to stop reading.

[Grouchy]

I completely forgot about Theon's sister trying to save him. Where has that story line been?
She gives up when she realizes what he has been turned into, no?

Poor Theon. I don't see the new Greyjoy ruler being very kind to him. He should have tried his luck with Jon Snow.

[Scar]

HBO / Comcast was having issues for me last night so I got about halfway through. I'll try it again tonight, but I'm already aware of what's going on. Not much of a surprise, fortunately.

[bac0n]

She gives up when she realizes what he has been turned into, no?

As I recall, he refused to go with her when she tried to break him out. She finally had to give up and flee after pleading with him to come with her.


Poor Theon. I don't see the new Greyjoy ruler being very kind to him. He should have tried his luck with Jon Snow.

By his own admission, he has a knack for choosing the wrong side.

[number8]

While the straight up spoiling by media outlets is obviously reckless, what I find equally callous are when people think they're not spoiling it by obfuscating their comments but really everyone knows what you're saying anyway.

Like, oh, you just posted "HE'S STILL ALIVE! CALLED IT!" on Facebook at 10:10 pm Sunday night and you think you're not spoiling anything for anyone because you didn't specifically say Game of Thrones or Jon Snow? I'm sure everyone assumed you were just talking about a character on Bob's Burgers.

[Mara]

Like, oh, you just posted "HE'S STILL ALIVE! CALLED IT!" on Facebook at 10:10 pm Sunday night and you think you're not spoiling anything for anyone because you didn't specifically say Game of Thrones or Jon Snow? I'm sure everyone assumed you were just talking about a character on Bob's Burgers.

"GOT Just Resurrected a Character: You'll Never Guess Who!" Is it Ned? Because I would never have guessed Ned.

I think Theon's going "home" is ambiguous. I don't know what he considers home. It could be Winterfell.

[Ezee E]

"GOT Just Resurrected a Character: You'll Never Guess Who!" Is it Ned? Because I would never have guessed Ned.

I think Theon's going "home" is ambiguous. I don't know what he considers home. It could be Winterfell.

Ha. That'd be quite the twist if he went that direction as home.

[[ETM]]

We talkin' bout Beylon, right? That's the only one that struck me as moronically written and came out of nowhere.

Anything with Ramsay is expected and laboriously foreshadowed last season.

I'm like - okay, we get it, Ramsay is a monster, WE GET IT ALREADY. But since the show overtook the books on that particular front, the plot has become increasingly... "stabby", as my g/f put it while we watched the episode. I know they'll try to cover it up somehow, but risking an alliance with the Freys like... that? Not even Ramsay is THAT stupid. And his father was portrayed as a bit smarter than letting Ramsay anywhere near him while armed. I don't know, that and Balon, and many similar instances lately just make everything so... cheap. I care less and less every time, about anything on the show, because nothing matters and there's nothing to hope for but more elaborate ways to show carnage.

[[ETM]]

I think Theon's going "home" is ambiguous. I don't know what he considers home. It could be Winterfell.

Nah. It's painfully obvious why they rushed the Pyke plotline so badly this week.

[Henry Gale]

Is it weird that my biggest issue with it is that they cut straight to the credits for extra-surprise-oomph and not to black like they have for every other episode prior? Or perhaps this is meant to signify that Jon has truly given up the Black lololololol..

Very good episode though. Even the bridge scene was visualized so fantastically that I didn't think about how dumb it was in the moment.

[Ezee E]

It's been so long to see the Greyjoy family that I don't even recall if they cared if their King lived or not.

[Spinal]

It's been so long to see the Greyjoy family that I don't even recall if they cared if their King lived or not.

The events of last night actually happen in Book 3. That's how overdue it was. But hey, lots of storylines. Can't do everything at once.

[Ezee E]

The events of last night actually happen in Book 3. That's how overdue it was. But hey, lots of storylines. Can't do everything at once.

Certainly not one I was wondering about either.

[Grouchy]

I actually kind of dig the Greyjoys - they seem like a really hard bunch and I like that their motto is "We do not sow". Honest.

[Peng]

These two episodes feel like the showrunners realize they don't have text to follow anymore, so to make things easier for them, here come an avalanche of character deaths and match-ups to clear out or speed up storylines.

[Spinal]

These two episodes feel like the showrunners realize they don't have text to follow anymore, so to make things easier for them, here come an avalanche of character deaths and match-ups to clear out or speed up storylines.

It confuses me that people still act like Benioff and Weiss are making this up as they go along. They've had the rest of the series mapped out for some time now. They have been in conversations with George R.R. Martin. They know where they're heading. If someone dies, it's because their character no longer has a significant impact on the story, or their death is needed to open up a new avenue. What more do we really need to know about Balon Greyjoy? He's a minor character. All we need to know is that his death is going to cause unrest in the Iron Islands. It's not significantly different than the way his death is treated in the books in which we hear about his mysterious fall secondhand.

If Martin had completed the book series, the show would not likely run any longer or take more time. You have child actors that are growing up. You have elderly actors that could become incapable of working. You have adult actors that are becoming stars and gaining opportunities elsewhere. What the showrunners are doing to streamline the story and manage hundreds of characters in multiple locations is unprecedented. I'm not sure why people are acting like they're getting cheated out of something.

[Grouchy]

Yeah, I've been reading a lot of negative criticism about the writing in these couple of episodes and it makes me wonder what show have they been watching. Luck reversals and surprise betrayals and killings have been par the course for Thrones for all of its five seasons. I don't see why they are "cheaper" this time around.

I mean, Roose Bolton's death is properly foreshadowed and, like Spinal says, Balon Greyjoy's death has made the Iron Islands situation more interesting than all of his conversations of his daughter from previous seasons.

[Spinal]

Regarding Jon Snow:

Now that he has died, will he use it as a loophole to get out of the Night's Watch oath? Likely, he will return to his main mission. But is he now free to 'wear crowns' and 'win glory' and 'father children'?

[Fezzik]

Regarding Jon Snow:

Now that he has died, will he use it as a loophole to get out of the Night's Watch oath? Likely, he will return to his main mission. But is he now free to 'wear crowns' and 'win glory' and 'father children'?

I think that's the plan. I honestly think that was the plan all along. The series is called "A Song of Ice [Jon Snow] and Fire [Daenerys Targaryen]" after all.

That's why I roll my eyes when all the armchair critics claim the ending of this past episode was nothing but 'Fan Service.' Its clearly foreshadowed in the books. D&D didn't pull it out of their ass.

[Grouchy]

Wow, I hadn't thought of that. You're right, he already gave his life. Now... his Watch is over?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAAp_luluo0

[DavidSeven]

Roose's end reminded me of Joffrey's, in that it was a fairly limp way to finish off another Stark antagonist. Ramsay's getting off'ed by some rando wildling a year from now, huh?

Good episode otherwise, besides that bridge thing which was weird and confusing.

[Spinal]

I think that's the plan. I honestly think that was the plan all along. The series is called "A Song of Ice [Jon Snow] and Fire [Daenerys Targaryen]" after all.

Interesting. I always interpreted the title as White Walkers vs. Dragons, which is what I assume the final confrontation will be.


That's why I roll my eyes when all the armchair critics claim the ending of this past episode was nothing but 'Fan Service.' Its clearly foreshadowed in the books. D&D didn't pull it out of their ass.

Not to mention that it's a standard element of myth! Seriously, how do people not recognize this by now? That said, I think the show did a great job of building suspense and making us sweat out the final few moments. And I appreciate the commitment by the show's team during the off-season to the reality of Snow's death. Even if it is pretty clear in retrospect to see where it all was going, letting the kernel of doubt linger makes for a better viewing experience. Which is why all these media outlets spoiling the story hours after it happens should be ashamed of themselves.

[number8]

Not to mention that it's a standard element of myth! Seriously, how do people not recognize this by now?

Long haired and bearded dude trying to bring about peace got betrayed by his closest confidant and stabbed in the gut, died, and returned to life a couple of days later? Never heard it before.

[Ezee E]

My question is whether Jon Snow is susceptible to becoming a White Walker now that he's basically already been "dead."

[Spinal]

The murders aren't random though. That's what I'm saying. What character of significance has been killed 'randomly'?

[DavidSeven]

Todd VanDerWerff had a pretty good rundown the other day: http://www.vox.com/2016/5/2/11564220/game-of-thrones-home-recap-ramsay-twist

I think this is a fair perspective, and I tie it back to what I said about Roose and Joffrey's fates being narratively limp. From a story arc standpoint, these significant characters are being off'd without much payoff or development of character. What was now the point of Red Wedding and Ned Stark's be-heading beyond shock and to reiterate the show's theme of a struggle for power (which is already very much at the surface)? As the primary antagonists behind those events are innocuously eliminated from the show, the emotional significance of those events gradually dissipate into the ether. Those events, significant as they were, should have been the launching of a larger, meaningful arc. I am not even exclusively talking of an audience satisfaction thing as it relates to vengeance, though that's a factor; but it seems to me that they're losing an opportunity to say something about important characters like Arya, Sansa, Jon Snow, or whoever else may have had the opportunity to defeat their antagonist if they weren't disposed of so tangentially.

[Spinal]

I'm not caught up, but off the top of my head-- The Hound? Oberyn? Ygritte? Joffrey? Caitlyn?

OK, I have to speak strictly from the perspective of the show, as some of these characters have different paths in the books.

The Hound - not random, Arya is a major character that needed an opportunity to explore the world and grow accustomed to the violence, she needed someone with a motivation to get her away, but at some point, she also needed to be freed

Oberyn - not random, just tragic, his character is the one who allows the narrative to discuss the Lannister's role in past events, his failure forces Tyrion, a major chararter, to embark on a completely new path, his death awakens a whole host of characters in Dorne who are now openly antagonistic towards the Lannisters

Ygritte - not random, just tragic, Jon, a major character, needs some way to gain experience and understand the Wildlings, the character of Ygritte allows him to do that and return, her death amplifies Jon torn loyalties, between love and duty

Joffrey - so not random, really, Joffrey?

Catelyn - again, not random, demonstrative of the high stakes that are being played, demonstrative of the fragility of allegiances, also sets the remaining children free, forced to make their own way in the world

Each one of these has huge narrative significance. And, to my eyes, it becomes easier and easier to see as the show progresses and we get the fuller picture. As we understand who the true protagonists are.

[Ezee E]

A random death would be the citizen that was pissing in the street and came across The Mountain.

None of those big name characters had anything like that. If anything, all their deaths make sense to me within the narrative and how they died. Once was in a deathmatch! Another in a battle. Catelyn and Joffrey's deaths have been built up for the entire season (or even show). The Hound was basically another deathmatch in terms of how the characters interact.

All five make sense to me within the story here.

In fact, this is part of why I like the show. Too often main characters survive just because they are the main characters.

[Dukefrukem]

My question is whether Jon Snow is susceptible to becoming a White Walker now that he's basically already been "dead."

I would think the opposite.

[Peng]

Holy wall of texts. To be clear, when I posted that, I wasn't complaining, just observing what it feels like. I didn't mean to imply that the showrunners don't know what they are doing. I figure they know from the start. I just feels like compared to earlier seasons, this flows more like a TV show, and it feels like not having to base on actual text frees them up to pave an easier, speedier path for the characters to travel through these preplanned storylines. Again, not a complaint.

[number8]

The Walking Dead does the same thing (and curiously, both these show pulled the "fakeout death" thing recently).

I did think of TWD comparison, but there is one major difference between them that I think allows GOT the ability to kill characters off periodically while maintaining focus, in that the universe introduced a specific goal from the get-go (finding a one true king to fend off the threat from the North) it's building up to that is to be achieved through the politics of assassinations, and despite introducing new characters constantly, it's still a finite pool of allegiances. TWD, on the other hand, is massively open ended and kills characters off for the sole reason of rotating its supporting cast to ensure longevity.

[Grouchy]

What 8 says. The "Game of Thrones" is killing enemies and seize the throne. 'Nuff said.

That article in Vox is profoundly silly. It starts with the premise that the murders and betrayals in the show are wearing old and getting less shocking, and then it reveals that the only reason the author is saying this is because he was, indeed, shocked by the dogs scene. It's the same tepid reasoning as in Roger Ebert's Blue Velvet review - I don't think any writer needs moral justification or permission from the audience for telling a violent story.

What Irish argues about the shocking deaths cutting character arcs short before their time is more interesting, though. I think I agree in Sansa and Joffrey's scenario, and I'd like to point out that the (in)famous rape scene could have easily taken place earlier in King's Landing at that point in the series. I don't think I agree with the Hound's death (as much as I loved that character, it makes sense in Arya's growth as a vengeful spirit) or with Ygritte's (she existed to let Jon Snow know what life was like outside the Watch, not to become his permanent girlfriend; it's a common trope for all kind of pulp heroes to lose their loved ones and stay on their heroic parth) but it's a more interesting perspective than the article's, which is just "oh, dude, this show so is cruel".

[Spinal]

Boy, you're really stuck on that word random, aren't ya? :D


That's the word you used. I'm happy you're not interested in defending it, because it wasn't at all accurate.


The deaths feel arbitrary because they aren't well supported in the narrative, they're not foreshadowed, and often play for shock value in-scene.

Unfortunately, this isn't accurate either.

Ned: is told outright by Varys while in the cell that he is a dead man, we have experienced a fight on the Kingsroad between the Lannisters and Starks, he have seen Joffrey's cruelty and irrationality, there was a stag antler buried in the dead direwolf in episode 1!

Catelyn: is told outright that Walder Frey is not to be trusted and would willingly kill anyone if the price were right

Joffrey: we see numerous conversations in which we come to understand that the Tyrells are playing the Lannisters with one face while scheming with another

Oberyn: we know his sister has been killed by the Lannisters, we know he is prideful and supremely confidant, we know he is looking for an opportunity for revenge, when one presents itself ... he walks into a death match

Ygritte: the tensions of this relationship are well known from the beginning, they are on warring sides, it would be like being shocked that Romeo and Juliet die

Stannis/Shireen: a classic tragedy with a hubristic man who thinks he is a hero, led down the wrong path by a misplaced faith is his own destiny

The Hound: a warrior who chooses to walk away from a war, a man who has abducted a little girl for profit, a man whose hostage is being tracked down by one of the most gifted and dedicated combatants in the narrative

These things may be shocking when they happen. When you watch them again, understanding the whole, they become inevitable. This is good writing. This is not arbitrary writing.

The main narrative device employed is not selecting arbitrary deaths out of thin air. It's the obfuscation of the true protagonists. In the beginning, you may assume that the protagonists of the main story are Ned, Catelyn, Robb ... In time, it is revealed that they are really Tyrion, Arya, Jon Snow, Bran. But what happens is that characters we understand to be minor in retrospect and treated like major players for the time they appear in the narrative. Again, this is good writing. Not arbitrary.

It is GOOD that when we hear about Ned that we understand the pain these characters went through. It is GOOD that when we hear about the Red Wedding that we were there. But the story is not about the Starks avenging the Lannisters. The story is about the wheel of violence that is playing out while a larger threat from the North is being largely ignored.

Tyrion is needed as a part of this mission. So Joffrey and Oberyn had to die to get him to Essos.
Arya is needed as a part of this mission. So Ned and the Hound had to die to get her to Braavos to receive training.
Jon Snow is needed as a part of this mission. Jeor Mormont had to die to put him in a place of leadership. Did Ygritte have to die? Maybe not. But it is highly demonstrative of Jon's dedication to duty in the face of all other things pulling at him.
Bran is needed as a part of this mission. Would he have left Winterfell if it were not visited by death and suffering? If his family was not shattered?


Edited to add: The main issue I have with GRRM's style is that he tries so hard to subvert convention that he doesn't allow major characters to make important choices.

This is just wildly inaccurate. I don't think we're ever going to see eye to eye on this.

Major characters:

Daenerys - Do I support my brother or Khal Drogo? Do I leave with Jorah or do I try to keep Drogo alive? Do play the slaver's game or do I stand up for oppressed people? Do I trust Jorah knowing his whole story or do I send him away?

Jon Snow - Do I rush away to support the war effort or do I stay at Castle Black? Do I return to Castle Black to do my duty or do I follow my love for Ygritte? Do I assassinate Mance Rayder and sacrifice myself or do I find a way to use him and his people for a greater good? Do I accept Stannis' offer of lordship or do I stay at Castle Black to lead the Night's Watch?

Arya - Do I submit to royal authority or do I set off on my own? Do I take the opportunity to accept Brienne's protection or do I find a way to escape? Do I put the Hound out of his misery or do I leave him to die? Do I try to make a new life in Braavos or do I choose to continue difficult training? Do I take the opportunity for revenge or do I let it pass, knowing that I have been asked to kill a man I do not know?

Tyrion - Do I let King's Landing be taken by Stannis or do I find a way to defend the family that despises me? Do I pursue a relationship with Shae or do I send her away knowing it's safer? Do I accept Joffrey's abuse or do I openly rebel? Do I forgive the woman who betrayed me or do I kill her? Do I drink myself to death or do I find a way to serve a new ruler?

And on. And on. And on. The show is filled with these kinds of questions. The show is filled with these kind of decisions and emotional dilemmas. The show is filled with rich, detailed characters. The show is glorious melodrama, in the best sense of the word.

You say death keeps the characters from wrestling with moral issues? That is just not so. How has Jon Snow not wrestled with his conscience and made a choice? Or Daenerys or Jorah or Ned or Littlefinger or Arya or Brienne or Jamie or Cersei? Death sometimes closes doors unexpectedly, but the fallout is always there. The pain remains. The anger remains. And the characters have to do their best with a new path.

[Spinal]

People like to criticize Sansa and her lack of agency. But that argument only works when you view her story in a vacuum. In a show with Daenerys and Arya and Catelyn and Brienne and Yara and Cersei and Margery and Oleanna and Melisandre .... doesn't it make sense that there is one female character that is comparatively passive? That is at sea and lost and watching the world around her like a bad dream? That takes longer to find strength and the courage to act?

[Grouchy]

I think people are just comparatively too accostumed to wish-fulfillment in fiction.

[number8]

They said their outline has had it set to end at 73 hours, with the remaining 13 split between two more seasons. It's HBO that's trying to prolong it. When they came out with that number, HBO immediately released this statement:


Any conversations about the end of Game of Thrones and the number of episodes of future seasons is purely speculative. As is customary, HBO will sit with Dan and David to discuss the details once a decision has been made to go forward with season 7.

[Grouchy]

Uh, no? It makes no sense for a major character to be completely passive (especially in the way that GRRM structures his books, and the way the show mirrors that).
It DOESN'T make sense for Sansa to be passive? How not? She's a princess raised for marriage to a ruler. She doesn't even have Arya's rebellious streak. Even a murder in the dark seems out of her league.

[number8]

FYI, you keep using B&B... Their names are Dan Weiss and David Benioff.

[Grouchy]

Generally speaking. You don't want a passive character because it's dramatically uninteresting. You can get away with it in a novel, but not so much in film and television.

All the points you raise were the exact reasons I found her storyline so interesting. There are so many choices she could have made. There were so many choices Joffrey could have made. But the show doesn't allow either of them to make any choices outside their established archetype, because if they did it would upset the apple cart too much. It would change the dynamic of the show. So she's a princess and he's a sociopath and that's all they ever are.
OK, but Sansa is not a solitary protagonist. She's part of a large ensemble of "good" characters which allows for greater variety.

Your second point still stands. Don't get me wrong, I would have loved to see Sansa stand up to Joffrey and figure out a way to fight the Lannister's machinations. But what she did (endure, basically) is probably more in character for her.

[Ezee E]

Lol at B&B. Nobody wraps a show when the audience gets bigger every season. Either they go the distance, or HBO replaces them. The network doesn't have any other big draws right now. They need GoT badly.

HBO and many networks have had plenty of shows wrap up at their peak.

[Spinal]

Generally speaking. You don't want a passive character because it's dramatically uninteresting.

It works fine in a series where every other female character is either a masterful fighter or a skilled political schemer.

[Spinal]

Lol at B&B. Nobody wraps a show when the audience gets bigger every season. Either they go the distance, or HBO replaces them. The network doesn't have any other big draws right now. They need GoT badly.

If HBO forces the team to extend this show beyond the original planned ending, I will stop defending it. I don't think that's going to happen though.

[Spinal]

Not really a great episode overall, but loved that last scene.

Owen Teale is a fantastic actor. Sorry to see him go.

Shaggydog! Noooooooo!

[Ezee E]

Transition episode I'm thinking as everything's basically wrapped up from last season now.

Who was it that brought the Stark into Winterfell? Guy was as mean-looking as it gets. Hope there's more of that character.

Also, what if Daenarys never got out of Vaes Dothrak? Would be fitting with the show in a way.

[Watashi]

I really liked the Sparrow/Tommen and the flashback, but yeah, nothing really new. I hope Arya's story goes somewhere soon.

[Watashi]

So there's only one direwolf left, right?

[Spinal]

So there's only one direwolf left, right?

3, I believe.

Ghost is alive.
Summer is alive.
Nymeria got chased off, but I believe she is still alive.

[Spinal]

Transition episode I'm thinking as everything's basically wrapped up from last season now.

Who was it that brought the Stark into Winterfell? Guy was as mean-looking as it gets. Hope there's more of that character.



Smalljon Umber. Rickon and Osha were heading to the Umbers when they parted ways with Bran, thinking it would be a safe place, since they were aligned with the Starks.

[Mara]

Ugh, Jon.

His resurrection was so cool, but then he has to be so Jon about the whole thing, crying and moping and hugging and suffering. You came back from the dead! It's okay to be a badass for, like, one second!

Tyrion's polite boredom with Daenerys' silent people was a nice character beat.

[Dukefrukem]

Regarding Jon Snow:

Now that he has died, will he use it as a loophole to get out of the Night's Watch oath? Likely, he will return to his main mission. But is he now free to 'wear crowns' and 'win glory' and 'father children'?

May not be explained this way, but you were right.

[Dukefrukem]

Biggest revelation for me in this episode was Sir Gregor was still alive and that was him the whole time. I dont remember them making that clear.

[number8]

Wait, really? They literally showed them bringing him back to life in a lab like Frankenstein style and put him in that armor.

[number8]

By the way, I'm beginning to think that The Hound is coming back this season.

[Peng]

I love that flashback because I can almost literally feel the glee of the showrunners in teasing book-readers (me included) like that.

It wasn't until we cut to Sam on the ship that I remembered his storyline. His is the only one that the show hasn't caught up with the books, right? All the other ones seem to surpass the books or change significantly from them already.

[Grouchy]

Biggest revelation for me in this episode was Sir Gregor was still alive and that was him the whole time. I dont remember them making that clear.
Yeah, dude. I don't think they ever left any room for doubt about that.

The Hound back? You mean in flashbacks or as in he never died?

[number8]

I don't know how, but the episode seems to be foreshadowing him with the Arya and High Sparrow scenes. I mean, come on, who else is better to fight the Mountain in that Trial by Combat that Cersei wants? Sandor "Fuck the King" Clegane, that's who.

[Spinal]

May not be explained this way, but you were right.

Here's the next question ...

Will the Night's Watch continue to function in the same way? Or will it evolve (or devolve) into something else? There is no clear leader (although the thought of Dolorous Edd in charge is pretty hilarious). The strongest personality left is Tormund. Is he going to succeed where Jon failed and unite the group somehow? I suppose the other option might be Davos.

[Spinal]

I don't know how, but the episode seems to be foreshadowing him with the Arya and High Sparrow scenes. I mean, come on, who else is better to fight the Mountain in that Trial by Combat that Cersei wants? Sandor "Fuck the King" Clegane, that's who.

This (http://www.gq.com/story/game-of-thrones-ian-mcshane-resurrect) would support the possibility of your theory.

[Dukefrukem]

Wait, really? They literally showed them bringing him back to life in a lab like Frankenstein style and put him in that armor.

I dont recall this; and I probably didn't recognize it was him.

Was this the only scene? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NgIoIcTNoA

[Russ]

The Hound back? You mean in flashbacks or as in he never died?
I agree with 8, I've had that feeling about The Hound too. And, if memory serves, wasn't he just left for dead (tho he did seem pretty dead)?

[Mara]

I dont recall this; and I probably didn't recognize it was him.


My question was whether or not they were paying Hafþór JúlÃ*us Björnsson to walk around in smurf make-up and a helmet that only shows his eyes or if they hired a particularly burly extra. Per IMDB, that's really him.

Hafþór!

[Scar]

I agree with 8, I've had that feeling about The Hound too. And, if memory serves, wasn't he just left for dead (tho he did seem pretty dead)?

Arya left him for dead.

[Lazlo]

I dont recall this; and I probably didn't recognize it was him.

Was this the only scene? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NgIoIcTNoA

I think there was another scene with tubes going into his arm and someone asks Qyburn how it was going with all that, etc.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt9KKTX4tI4

[Grouchy]

It would indeed be interesting if the Hound came back. I loved that guy.

[number8]

I suppose they never explicitly said that Robert Strong is the Mountain before last night's ep, but I figured it was rather obvious since they had Qyburn telling Cersei he's gonna bring the corpse back to life and then Qyburn suddenly shows up with a giant mysterious knight who moans like a zombie.

[Russ]

Arya left him for dead.
So...we never saw him draw his last breath? Awww, that dude is DEFINITELY coming back!!

[Scar]

So...we never saw him draw his last breath? Awww, that dude is DEFINITELY coming back!!

I sure as Hell hope so. Really like that guy.

[Spinal]

It wasn't until we cut to Sam on the ship that I remembered his storyline. His is the only one that the show hasn't caught up with the books, right? All the other ones seem to surpass the books or change significantly from them already.

Well, the Greyjoys are both behind and ahead of the books due to the way they've rearranged certain events. Theon is ahead. The other Greyjoys are behind or on a whole new path, depending on how you look at it.

[Dukefrukem]

I think there was another scene with tubes going into his arm and someone asks Qyburn how it was going with all that, etc.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt9KKTX4tI4

I dont recall this at all. Hmm.

[Thirdmango]

Yeah Sam is still behind by my understanding. I never read the books though, I just looked up spoilers for him (a while back) because he's one of my favorites.

[DavidSeven]

Snow and the Hound back from the dead in the same season?

Hm. Would that not start making GoT feel like DC/Marvel with all these deaths that don't stick? Seems risky to undermine the one card you're willing to play over and over (taking out beloved characters) for emotional weight.

[Ezee E]

My thought behind it is that of course Cersei will pick Sir Gregor to be her opponent.

What if The Sparrows then picked Jaime to represent them in the fight? If Jaime wins, saving himself, he would in a way, be killing off his sister, fulfilling the prophecy, right?

[Dukefrukem]

Snow and the Hound back from the dead in the same season?

Hm. Would that not start making GoT feel like DC/Marvel with all these deaths that don't stick? Seems risky to undermine the one card you're willing to play over and over (taking out beloved characters) for emotional weight.

Or Bringing back Ned Stark from the past!

[Spinal]

Or Bringing back Ned Stark from the past!

I mean, as crazy as this sounds, you have to wonder where they are going with setting up the fact that Bran seems to be able to make at least some ripples when he is observing the past. Can he influence it? Change it?

[Thirdmango]

well there was one death in the book that never came back in the show so you know it was already sorta a thing.

[Spinal]

Re-watching the 3rd season and picked up this line of dialogue spoken by Melisandre to Arya that has new meaning now:

I see a darkness in you. And in that darkness, eyes staring back at me. Brown eyes, blue eyes, green eyes. Eyes you'll shut forever. We will meet again.

I hadn't remembered this exchange. And now I wonder if she is referring to specific people? Or just a wide group of people?

It also may be a hint as to where Melisandre is going next. Or perhaps Arya.

[Ezee E]

Melisandre was on Arya's list wasn't she?

I forget why though.

Also want to know why Arya's list is shorter....

[Spinal]

Also want to know why Arya's list is shorter....

Because some died.

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Arya_Stark

Scroll down to 'Death List'.

[Gizmo]

Melisandre was on Arya's list wasn't she?

I forget why though.


I don't think Melisandre is on the list. I don't believe they met in the books (yet), and I don't recall a reason she would be added to the list, either from their brief run-in on the show.

[Spinal]

I don't think Melisandre is on the list. I don't believe they met in the books (yet), and I don't recall a reason she would be added to the list, either from their brief run-in on the show.

According to the link above:


For a while, Arya added the Red Woman, Beric Dondarrion, and Thoros of Myr to her list, because she was upset the Brotherhood Without Banners let Melisandre take Gendry away. She later phased them out of her list, presumably because they didn't do anything remotely near what other people in the list had done.

Arya doesn't meet Melisandre in the books. At least, not thus far.

[Ezee E]

I think I looked a little much into the list, thinking that whoever was left off the list had all died (forgotten names died despite her not knowing they were dead)... Instead it's more that Arya's just young and can change her list at her own will.

[TGM]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPo-B8ZkyzI

[Ezee E]

Maybe the Khal Drogo are just that dumb as we discussed, lol.

[Grouchy]

That whole scene had a very B-movie feel to it. It was kind of cheaply shot and edited.

Great episode, though.

[Ezee E]

Yes, great episode indeed.

Really liked the handling of the three brother/sister reunions. Always neat how the creators seem to unify the episodes in some form.

[Spinal]

The first reunion was undeniably moving. But I think the Greyjoys had the best scene of the episode. Gemma Whalen is so damn good.

A lot of the other scenes seemed kind of flat to me. Lots of getting from point A to point B without much in the way of witty repartee.

[Peng]

I rarely get emotional at Game of Thrones (the last time was maybe The Red Wedding), but the Sansa/Jon reunion got me. Pretty unexpected (early in the episode and I resigned last episode that they would just barely miss each other), and so much historical/emotional weight.

If they are moving towards the endgame (as we might have two more seasons after this), I guess we will finally see some real development on Dany heading to Westeros by the end of this season at the latest? Now she has a Dothraki army.

[number8]

Maybe the Khal Drogo are just that dumb as we discussed, lol.

It's a wonder none of them ever drunkenly fell backwards while fucking and knocked over those torches.

[number8]

Also, I was expecting Jon's letter to end with "Anyway please respond. XOXO, Ramsay."

[Mara]

It's a wonder none of them ever drunkenly fell backwards while fucking and knocked over those torches.

Yeah, maybe soaking the sawdust floor with kerosene wasn't the best idea, either.

Good episode. Huisman's accent was all over the place but his facial hair was on point as always, so.

[number8]

Yeah, maybe soaking the sawdust floor with kerosene wasn't the best idea, either.

I think the oil was from the bowl she tipped over.

[number8]

This was by far my favorite part of the episode:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IGQcvhDejk

[Spinal]

I think the oil was from the bowl she tipped over.

I was wondering if Jorah and Daario had a hand in prepping the trap. But, if so, they didn't really make it explicit and I'm not sure how they would have accessed the area anyway.

Also, I'm wondering if anyone is going to notice that Meryn Trant hasn't been filling out his timesheet.

[Spinal]

And it was fairly easy to anticipate this week's big death. The most dangerous thing you can do in Westeros is to complete your narrative arc

[[ETM]]

Ramsay's body count of people who underestimate him when they clearly should know better grows yet again. Right now even if he dies a death ten times as horrible as all of those on the show put together, it still wouldn't make up for what I keep feeling is ruining the entire season for me.

EDIT: Also, Daenerys carpet-bombs another ancient culture with dragon-democracy... Her party trick is taking her way too far.

[Grouchy]

It is fairly funny how he's a late comer to the show yet he surpasses almost everyone else's body count. But I don't see how his killing spree could "ruin" the season for you. I liked Osha a great deal too but they are obviously building his villainy to absurd levels for his battle against Jon Snow.

[[ETM]]

His whole story is just way, WAY dumber than anything Martin himself had written. I don't think building him up as a villain is needed at all, and hasn't been in quite a while. I fully expected the writers to off a few characters in the Vale plot line this week, and the way they're going, I'm surprised many of those alive are still standing right now. Now, I never complained about any of the stuff Martin wrote way back, but it irks me now that they're obviously making it up as they go (and no, I don't think Martin went into anything but the broad main story plot points for the rest of the story) as the slaughter gets dumber and dumber and increasingly pointless. I love the GoT writeup on The Verge (of all places) in their weekly fantasy game post, because they nailed it when it comes to Ramsay: http://www.theverge.com/2016/5/16/11680948/game-of-thrones-recap-season-6-episode-4-book-of-the-stranger


The Game of Game of Thrones is a fantasy game based on a fantasy show, but we're not the only Double Fantasy in town. It's come to our attention that a thinly-written fan-made character, built on the most indulgent impulses of the worst corner of internet fandom, seems to have made it into the cut of season six of Game of Thrones that HBO decided to air. How this error has gotten through unchecked is mystifying to all of us here at GOGOT; even more mystifying is how this character ended up on our draft, of all things. But since it would be too complicated to remove him from the game at this point, the best we can do is apologize and tell you the truth:

Ramsay Bolton is a Mary Sue.

Ramsay is:

A bastard turned legitimate son
Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North (fine, fine, +25)
Tactical military expert
Weakens Stannis' entire army with "20 good men"
Torturer
Rapist
Bow and arrow user
Murderer with 100 percent success rate
Effective letter-writer (+10)
Dog owner
Worst fucking Game of Thrones character yet

Last week, I optimistically guessed that Osha would finally be the one to end Ramsay, creating a nice poetic triangle between her, Ramsay, and her former tormentor Theon. I didn't yet know about the true nature of the Ramsay character, but it's clear now that the amateur enthusiast who conceived him and edited him seamlessly into this otherwise super normal show has no interest in poetry. Alas, Osha tried, but she could not out-stab the all-consuming power of the violent fanboy imagination run amok. That's +40 for Ramsay, though I'm tempted to dock him -5 for that horrifically wasteful apple-peeling technique.

[Mara]

I want Sansa to kill him.

Barring that, Brienne should take him out.

[[ETM]]

I want Sansa to kill him.

Barring that, Brienne should take him out.

This is a good list/ (http://uproxx.com/tv/game-of-thrones-ramsay-list-of-things/).

[Spinal]

I don't mind the fact that it was Ramsay who did it. I just feel like her character deserved a better send-off. It was a fairly unimaginative and unsatisfying resolution to a character that we have come to know as wily and tenacious.

I didn't mind the Daenerys scene. We've been told over and over that the Dothraki only follow strength. I thought it was an effective way for her to prove herself. Having it happen in the heart of the capital was a sufficient escalation for me from the season 1 finale.

[Spinal]

I want Sansa to kill him.

Barring that, Brienne should take him out.

One of those seems fairly likely, although part of me would really love to see the Twitter meltdown if it ended up being Podrick.

[number8]

Who better to kill a guy who likes to chop dicks off than the guy with the biggest dick of them all.

[amberlita]

;555958']Ramsay's body count of people who underestimate him when they clearly should know better grows yet again. Right now even if he dies a death ten times as horrible as all of those on the show put together, it still wouldn't make up for what I keep feeling is ruining the entire season for me.

EDIT: Also, Daenerys carpet-bombs another ancient culture with dragon-democracy... Her party trick is taking her way too far.

I know it's not new to Dany's story, but there's still something that I found really really unsettling about the image of a bunch of brown people bowing down to a white leader offering their subservience.

[Spinal]

Who better to kill a guy who likes to chop dicks off than the guy with the biggest dick of them all.

You may find this hard to believe, but this is the first time in my life I've considered this question.

[Grouchy]

I don't get that write up. Isn't a Mary Sue basically a writer surrogate or an idealized hero? Rey from Star Wars is a Mary Sue. Ramsay is a sadistic monster. I don't think the bulk of the Game of Thrones audience is rooting for him at all. He's hated as much as Joffrey Baratheon was.

What I found problematic about the Daenerys scene was how unusually cheap it was for the show. Shots didn't match each other physically. Once the first torch falls to the ground everything afterwards is directed and edited like shit. You don't know where Daenerys or the twentysomething Dothrakis are standing at any given moment, the same shots are used at least three times... it has the production values of an old Roger Corman flick.

[[ETM]]

I don't get that write up. Isn't a Mary Sue basically a writer surrogate or an idealized hero?

If you're meaning to create an idealized hero, yes. Ramsay is the sadistic, torture-porn-loving writer's "hero".

Also, his needs to stop:


Rey from Star Wars is a Mary Sue.

[Grouchy]

Well, dude, I'm sorry, I re-read the Wikipedia article about the term and Rey is the definition of a Mary Sue. Ramsay is something else entirely. Even if you love the character 'cause he's "badass" he has no heroic qualities whatsoever. Even his cunning and intelligence in choosing when to betray and fuck up others couldn't properly be described as virtues.

[[ETM]]

I don't think you get it at all, but it's midnight and it's been a long day.

[Grouchy]

Mary Sue: idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character, a young or low-rank person who saves the day through unrealistic abilities.

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/es.starwars/images/c/c0/Rey.png/revision/latest?cb=20151026054823

or

https://nyoobserver.files.wordpress.co m/2015/05/game-of-thrones-dinner-ramsay-1428500198.gif

?

[Spinal]

I'm curious to read how Martin treats the character of Ramsay differently in the upcoming book. I feel like, in the streamlining for the series, the character has probably taken on more 'weight' than he probably should. As an instrument for Theon's downfall, he made perfect sense. But, as characterized in the show, it's really hard for me to imagine any satisfaction in his defeat because he's basically just a guy with a serious mental problem. It's hard to imagine he truly has any serious political ambitions. And, unlike other 'villains' on the show, he doesn't really have a compelling duality or depth of character. Heck, even Joffrey could be maddening in the way that he found a way to project leadership and authority in certain situations.

The problem with Ramsay is that he is not tied to any sort of ideology or cause. That's what makes Cersei a good character. That's what makes Tywin a good character. Even Walder Frey. I don't really get that with Ramsay.

[Ezee E]

I think Ramsay was great in the position he was in before he killed his father. A spoiled son of a Lord that basically could do whatever the heck he wanted, no matter the perception it gave.

As a leader, he could certainly terrify someone that's not in a high rank, I guess, if he had the respect of the Army. I figure any other high-ranking individual wouldn't give him an ounce of respect and just have him killed off immediately.

But he's still one of the most vile characters on TV, so I look forward to how he ends.

[[ETM]]

Mary Sue: idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character[COLOR=#252525][FONT=sans-serif], a young or low-rank person who saves the day through unrealistic abilities.

OR, if you have a sadistic streak, your "Mary Sue" would be an unrealistically vile, un-redeemable character who is too over-the-top even for the ott world he inhabits?
The guys on The Verge are running a fantasy game, and Ramsay takes all fun out of it because there's a huge imbalance.

[Grouchy]

*shrug* I got where you were coming from, I really did, but I don't see it. We've seen comparable acts of cruelty from other characters in the show. The difference is that those other characters (Roose Bolton, Stannis, even Daenerys) have other interests in life - ruling the land, for one. Ramsay is just a sociopath. His interest in being a ruler seems secondary to the amount of people he can hurt in the meantime.

But when you make the specific accusation that George R. R. Martin is acting like a teenager infatuated with violence because he created an exceedingly violent character... I just don't see it. He also created Jorah Mormont who is basically a hopeless romantic. It's like those "oh, oh, oh, the show doesn't like women because Sansa doesn't fight back" people. Well, you have Arya for that. Sansa is a different character.

I really don't see the problem if the main antagonist this season is a sociopath instead of a calculating general like Tywinn. It contributes to the variety of dramatic situations in the show.

[Scar]

I miss Tywinn.....

[Spinal]

I miss Tywinn.....

I just re-watched the episode where he instructs Tommen on the qualities that make for an effective king. So good.

[Spinal]

It's like those "oh, oh, oh, the show doesn't like women because Sansa doesn't fight back" people. Well, you have Arya for that. Sansa is a different character.


With each passing episode, it's becoming clearer how misguided the Sansa criticisms have been. She's a critical character because she represents so many of us who live in a world of violence and lies and have trouble finding our voice because the game being played is so completely foreign to our nature. It is one thing to know that there is injustice in the world. It is another to know what one mild-mannered person can do about it. Not everyone is a Jon Snow or a Daenerys. More people are like Sansa, keeping their head down and staying out of it as long as they can. Her character has taken longer to become a player and not a pawn, but I think her arc is starting to pay off nicely.

[Ezee E]

With each passing episode, it's becoming clearer how misguided the Sansa criticisms have been. She's a critical character because she represents so many of us who live in a world of violence and lies and have trouble finding our voice because the game being played is so completely foreign to our nature. It is one thing to know that there is injustice in the world. It is another to know what one mild-mannered person can do about it. Not everyone is a Jon Snow or a Daenerys. More people are like Sansa, keeping their head down and staying out of it as long as they can. Her character has taken longer to become a player and not a pawn, but I think her arc is starting to pay off nicely.

Yeah, I rematch various scenes from earlier seasons and her character has probably had the biggest change overall.

Jaime Lannister has probably shown the most improvement as an actor, which is a completely different topic. It's almost humorous to see his season 1 look.

[Grouchy]

With each passing episode, it's becoming clearer how misguided the Sansa criticisms have been. She's a critical character because she represents so many of us who live in a world of violence and lies and have trouble finding our voice because the game being played is so completely foreign to our nature. It is one thing to know that there is injustice in the world. It is another to know what one mild-mannered person can do about it. Not everyone is a Jon Snow or a Daenerys. More people are like Sansa, keeping their head down and staying out of it as long as they can. Her character has taken longer to become a player and not a pawn, but I think her arc is starting to pay off nicely.
Exactly. What do people expect her to do, start stabbing and poisoning everyone around her? She's been rendered (or had been, up until this point) a political prisoner.


Jaime Lannister has probably shown the most improvement as an actor, which is a completely different topic. It's almost humorous to see his season 1 look.
And his character has gotten a lot more complex. I have no idea how the introduction of his character has played in the books. In the show Cersei and him were almost cartoonishly evil in the early episodes.

[Gizmo]

And his character has gotten a lot more complex. I have no idea how the introduction of his character has played in the books. In the show Cersei and him were almost cartoonishly evil in the early episodes.

Season 1 is about as close to a shot for shot take on a book you can make. So yeah, both were pretty cartoonish there. Jaime becomes more human as the series moves on, Cersei, less so.

[[ETM]]

Ever since coming back to King's Landing, Jaime has reverted to his "old" self. He's almost at the S1 level in many aspects. His relationship with Cersei is one of the least convincing things on the show.

[Fezzik]

I sure as Hell hope so. Really like that guy.

In "A Dance With Dragons" there is, if I remember, a passage talking about a hulking, but silent scarred man working with the sparrows (or at the very least as a monk in some religious sect). Pious, but terrifying in his size. There are clues in the text to suggest that this is the Hound, but its never 100% confirmed.

I could TOTALLY see a Trial by Combat with Zombie Mountain on Cersei's side and A Monkish Hound on the Sparrows side. Cleganebowl, indeed, but by happenstance, but certainly no less welcome.

[Fezzik]

;556166']Ever since coming back to King's Landing, Jaime has reverted to his "old" self. He's almost at the S1 level in many aspects. His relationship with Cersei is one of the least convincing things on the show.

It's one of my biggest beefs with the deviation from book to show. Jaime, in the books, has the closest we see to a classical hero's journey. His arc is incredible. Sending him back to Cersei's side and reverting him to what he was is just so freaking disappointing.

[Spinal]

I think it's a fair criticism. I must say that I'm not even entirely sure what Jaime is doing this season. I feel like his purpose is unclear.

[Mara]

Heyyyy where's Bronn?

[Dukefrukem]

Heyyyy where's Bronn?

Interesting Bron episode.

[Dukefrukem]

Mary Sue: idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character, a young or low-rank person who saves the day through unrealistic abilities.

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/es.starwars/images/c/c0/Rey.png/revision/latest?cb=20151026054823

or

https://nyoobserver.files.wordpress.co m/2015/05/game-of-thrones-dinner-ramsay-1428500198.gif

?

Even Indiana Jones was afraid of snakes.

[Scar]

Hodor....

[dreamdead]

Well, Sarah and I were a mess as this episode ended.

George RR Martin, you're crazy for this one.

Excellent episode. Powerful.

[Scar]

Well, Sarah and I were a mess as this episode ended.

George RR Martin, you're crazy for this one.

Excellent episode. Powerful.

Try watching that episode with someone who maybe saw part of last weeks episode and that's all their experience with the show, and then start making fun of hold the door.....

I am not in a good mood right now.

[Ivan Drago]

Hodor Hodor hodor HODOR hodor Hodor Hodor.

For real, though...

Hodor.....:(

[Henry Gale]

It leaked this morning so I watched it then and stayed quiet.

Its undeniable emotional tugging aside, it's kind of a weird, shaggy episode, right? They way they treated things like the that White Walker origin reveal felt like it needed a world more of dramatic emphasis put on it, but it strangely comes and goes with a tonal shrug, seemingly only in the episode because it needed to give us that information before the episode's climax made it close to impossible to do later.

I'm also not sure that I 100% track how the warg-ing worked from the way it was sequenced/edited between the two timelines. I get that it's meant to be intentionally murky but are we supposed to know what exactly made Young Hodor suddenly have that warg link to hear the past if he was already being controlled in the present? His eyes go gray and he starts convulsing well after the initial present warg, but something like the Raven being slayed by the Night's King triggers his dissolution instantaneously.

I forgot that Jack Bender helmed this episode about halfway through, and then somewhere around the middle with the montage of the Greyjoys sneaking away and the scene with Tyrion, Varys and the new Red Woman, I thought to myself, "Man, this feels really Lost-y. Oh.. right. This is the man who directed over a third of it." And then the last ten minutes felt shot and staged like an epic escape from a Dharma station. (The Tree Station?)

I also felt like the writing of that chase felt kinda middle-of-the-road horror amongst all the other more interesting and heartbreaking elements. I do feel like that rote-ness and the confusing sci-fi logic around it deflated the emotional impact for me, even trying to put that aside in my mind upon re-watching it.

[Watashi]

I didn't like this episode. The ending had zero effect on me. I'd rather have Hodor sacrifice himself without the silly time-travel device added in. Instead of what should be a powerful moment, I was rolling my eyes and saying "are they really turning this into Lost?" I also don't like show/movies where a few people can outrun a horde of monsters/zombies.

Arya's story is still going absolutely nowhere.

All I care about is Sansa/Jon's story right now.

[Spinal]

One of the best episodes of the series in my opinion. I thought it was stunning.

[amberlita]

I didn't like this episode. The ending had zero effect on me. I'd rather have Hodor sacrifice himself without the silly time-travel device added in. Instead of what should be a powerful moment, I was rolling my eyes and saying "are they really turning this into Lost?" I also don't like show/movies where a few people can outrun a horde of monsters/zombies.

Arya's story is still going absolutely nowhere.

All I care about is Sansa/Jon's story right now.

Pretty much agree with all of this, but I was never charmed by Hodor's simpleton innocence. He was mostly a non-entity. And despite being with this show since the beginning even I thought that "hold the door" scene was a bit much; I don't care how sad they make the violin solo. I was very bummed to see them toast another Direwolf though. :( Annoying time-travel twist. I'm *still* not sure I really get it, nor do I really get exactly what Bran has been doing this whole time with the Raven. I understand the flashbacks but what does that mean that he's now going to be the new Max Von Sydow? What's this training supposed to allow him to do? Please don't tell me we are setting Bran up with the ability to affect the past somehow and change the present. The hints are there and I'd loathe that.

Still, that was a pretty thrilling sequence. It's no Hardhomme, but anytime those white walkers and their undead army show up these days they wreak havoc and justify their (a) limited use in the show to (b) demonstrate just what the stakes are. Though why with that army are they still kicking around so north of the wall? All the wilding dare gone. They aren't adding any new numbers. Just go take on the wall!

[Spinal]

Things I loved about tonight's episode:
The Sansa - Petyr scene. It's really been exciting to see her dig in and become one of the show's most interesting characters.
The fact that Jon Snow, Sansa, Davos, Melisandre, Brienne, Dolorous Edd and Tormund were all in the same room together.
The moments between Theon and Yara.
Daenerys and Jorah. Straightforward scene. Beautiful performances.
Ellie Kendrick as Meera Reed was really stellar. It's basically a horror movie performance but I thought she really killed it.

I'm not sure how anyone could be unmoved by the final sequence. To each their own, I guess. I thought it was heartbreaking and powerful.

After the last two episodes, which felt kind of rote, I thought this was a return to form.

[DavidSeven]

Interesting that they brought in the director of LOST's "The Constant" specifically to do this episode. They really made no bones about what they were trying to emulate, huh?

[Raiders]

Y'all a bunch of cynical MF'ers.

[Dukefrukem]

My prediction.

Ned Stark is returning.

[Peng]

Oh man, two direwolves in one season (and now only two left)? :( That got me more than the end, although it primed me to get emotional to that easier.

[Spinal]

Arya's story is still going absolutely nowhere.


She's been asked to kill a fictional version of Cersei, and you think this is going nowhere?

[Watashi]

She's been asked to kill a fictional version of Cersei, and you think this is going nowhere?

Yeah. She's still being hit by sticks and asked what her name is 5 episodes in a row. Obviously they have plans for her, but the time being, I get bored when her scenes come on. Remember when she was paired with Tywin and The Hound and it was dramatic as fuck?

[Spinal]

Yeah. She's still being hit by sticks and asked what her name is 5 episodes in a row. Obviously they have plans for her, but the time being, I get bored when her scenes come on. Remember when she was paired with Tywin and The Hound and it was dramatic as fuck?

I like these scenes just as much. I don't know, I think the various ways Arya has been trained in different seasons is really cool and I like seeing her gradual growth. If it moved too quickly, we'd feel like she transformed overnight and it wouldn't feel plausible. Sure, she's still getting hit by sticks, but her ability changes a little bit each time. Like kicking onto her feet from the ground. That was a pretty slick maneuver.

[Grouchy]

If it moved too quickly, we'd feel like she transformed overnight and it wouldn't feel plausible.
I agree with this. I was watching her first scene in this episode and thought "OK, she has skills now, she will win this one" and when that still didn't happen it felt more dramatic as a result. In general, I've always been extremely engaged by Arya's story and the God of Many Faces stuff is no exception.

Hodor. I don't know what you guys think, but the time-travelling paradox here is more complex than any of the more famous ones (Back to the Future, Terminator) and opens some truly alarming possibilities for Bran.

I also don't know if anyone else thought that Bran catching the attention of the King of the Whitewalkers was a homage to Pippin (or Merry, I forget) being seen by the Eye of Sauron in the third volume of Lord of the Rings.

[Watashi]

Also with Brienne on the way to Riverrun, we may finally get Lady Stoneheart. Anytime there's a parting goodbye, we know that person's time is up.

[Spinal]

Also with Brienne on the way to Riverrun, we may finally get Lady Stoneheart. Anytime there's a parting goodbye, we know that person's time is up.

Oh, I hadn't even thought of this, but you're totally right!

[Grouchy]

Daenerys and Jorah. Straightforward scene. Beautiful performances.
Didn't you find that scene unintentionally hilarious, though? "I command you to find the cure". "All right, my Queen, will you give me a ship so I can reach a Meister somewhere and...". "Naw, you get one horse and get out of my sight while I continue to fuck the cokehead from Treme".

I mean, you'd think if getting a cure for magical necrosis was easy Jorah would have at least tried already.

Highlight of the episode besides Hodor for me was the theater play.

[Spinal]

Didn't you find that scene unintentionally hilarious, though? "I command you to find the cure". "All right, my Queen, will you give me a ship so I can reach a Meister somewhere and...". "Naw, you get one horse and get out of my sight while I continue to fuck the cokehead from Treme".

In an episode that was generally very well-written, this might not have been the strongest from a writing perspective. However, I really loved how Iain Glen took a somewhat cliched line like "I love you. I've always loved you" and really made it feel authentic.

[Ezee E]

Iain Glen has always surprised me in this role with how good he is. Like you say, it's pretty chumply written, but I'm always interested in where he ends up. He was my favorite character at one point early in the show until he took a step back.

Arya's character will forever be the most interesting to me. Along with the actress, I find everything about it the most unpredictable of the show. Her time as servant for Tywin, the initial meeting with Jaqen, roaming with the Hound, and now her training... Plus, I'm pretty surprised they had that length for the play on a show. It reminded me of Godfather Part 2.

The Hodor scene was brilliantly directed and very affecting. I'm trying to understand the logistics of it though. How did becoming Hodor in the past subsequently control him in the future? And is it really Hodor's sacrifice at that point, or Bran sacrificing Hodor for himself? Either way, Hodor will be missed and I really liked how they ended his character.

I don't think I've ever seen Varys scared. He looked terrified. Looking forward to where that goes.

Strangely, Jon/Sansa's scenes are the least intriguing. Of course the scene with Littlefinger was well done, but where did he go afterwards? I guess their plot is a transition for them.

Two dire wolves left right? And one's basically lost. :(

[Spinal]

Arya's character will forever be the most interesting to me. Along with the actress, I find everything about it the most unpredictable of the show.

It's amazing to think that three of the major performers of this season are actors that were hired when they were under 15 years old. And they're all pretty darn good, with Maisie Williams being the pretty clear standout.



Two dire wolves left right? And one's basically lost.

In the first episode, Jon convinces Ned that his children were meant to have the direwolves. It's interesting to me to reflect on how that's turned out.

Lady - slaughtered by Ned at the insistence of Cersei, foreshadowing? a symbol of Sansa's imminent defenselessness?
Nymeria - chased off by Arya to avoid being killed by Cersei, a symbol of Arya's lone wolf nature? her long journey through the countryside?
Grey Wind - a pretty direct mirror of Robb's personality, shared his strength and ferocity and also shares his fate
Shaggydog - again, a mirror of Rickon's black sheep nature, still too early to tell if his fate is tied to his owner's
Summer - allowed Bran to develop his warging abilities, saved his life a few times
Ghost - symbolic of the icy North? has been put to the most use of all the wolves, involved in many battles

[Raiders]

The Hodor scene was brilliantly directed and very affecting. I'm trying to understand the logistics of it though. How did becoming Hodor in the past subsequently control him in the future? And is it really Hodor's sacrifice at that point, or Bran sacrificing Hodor for himself? Either way, Hodor will be missed and I really liked how they ended his character.

Bran warged into him as he has before to move him into action (he responded to hearing Meera's plea that she needed Hodor) and best I can tell that because Bran was in both timelines, he effected Hodor in both which caused Hodor to seize. I also definitely think it is implied to not be entirely willful by Hodor which makes it heartbreaking. Bran is witnessing that he forever doomed Hodor for his own life, even if there is nothing inherently bad about what he is doing... you can imagine the ramifications of seeing the impact of his power.

[Lazlo]

Bran warged into him as he has before to move him into action (he responded to hearing Meera's plea that she needed Hodor) and best I can tell that because Bran was in both timelines, he effected Hodor in both which caused Hodor to seize. I also definitely think it is implied to not be entirely willful by Hodor which makes it heartbreaking. Bran is witnessing that he forever doomed Hodor for his own life, even if there is nothing inherently bad about what he is doing... you can imagine the ramifications of seeing the impact of his power.

This mostly makes sense. The one thing I can't get past is why Bran needed to warg into Hodor at all. I feel like Hodor would have been totally on board with helping to pick up Bran and run away on his own. He's never needed to be forced to help out before. The other time Bran warged into Hodor was to get him to fight. I guess maybe Meera was concerned that Hodor would seize up in fear and be useless?

[amberlita]

This mostly makes sense. The one thing I can't get past is why Bran needed to warg into Hodor at all. I feel like Hodor would have been totally on board with helping to pick up Bran and run away on his own. He's never needed to be forced to help out before. The other time Bran warged into Hodor was to get him to fight. I guess maybe Meera was concerned that Hodor would seize up in fear and be useless?

I thought this is basically what did happen. Hodor was cowering against the wall and Meera was screaming for Bran to wake up because "we need Hodor". (edit: guess that's basically what Raiders said so I'm not sure where the confusion remains)

My primary issue with the Hodor scene is that it was entirely unnecessary for his death to be affecting and, if anything, cheapened it by turning it into a stunt. People have always liked Hodor, not because he is a well-rounded character but because he is two-dimensional but unique. Nevertheless, the actor actually had the ability to inflect that limited scope with actual emotion and we've always sensed his devotion to Bran. His sacrifice would have been just as moving, moreso, if the weight of it wasn't handicapped by timey-wimey shenanigans.

[Lazlo]

I thought this is basically what did happen. Hodor was cowering against the wall and Meera was screaming for Bran to wake up because "we need Hodor". (edit: guess that's basically what Raiders said so I'm not sure where the confusion remains)

I mean, I guess? Rewatched the scene yesterday and it wasn't clear that Hodor was frozen.

[Scar]

I mean, I guess? Rewatched the scene yesterday and it wasn't clear that Hodor was frozen.

I thought he was rocking back and forth, basically seized up and panicking.

[Lazlo]

I thought he was rocking back and forth, basically seized up and panicking.

Watched it again and y'all are right. I guess it all just happened so fast and they weren't yet overrun with wights so it didn't seem like Hodor was frozen yet. But there is definitely a moment post-warg that he stands up and starts to move with a purpose, so I get it.

It's been since it aired that I saw the scene where the first Hodor warging happens. Was he similarly panicking to the point of being useless? I just never took Hodor for someone who couldn't be counted on in a stressful situation.

[Spinal]

My primary issue with the Hodor scene is that it was entirely unnecessary for his death to be affecting and, if anything, cheapened it by turning it into a stunt.

How is it a cheap stunt? It's providing a character's origin and also providing his ending within one key moment because they are interlinked. It is also providing critical information about the nature of Bran's abilities. This is effective, economical storytelling. I'm not sure I understand the resistance.

[Spinal]

Watched it again and y'all are right. I guess it all just happened so fast and they weren't yet overrun with wights so it didn't seem like Hodor was frozen yet. But there is definitely a moment post-warg that he stands up and starts to move with a purpose, so I get it.

It's been since it aired that I saw the scene where the first Hodor warging happens. Was he similarly panicking to the point of being useless? I just never took Hodor for someone who couldn't be counted on in a stressful situation.

Hodor is consistently overcome with fear and panic unless Bran takes over. It's been their standard M.O.

[number8]

Y'all are not discussing the episode's real coup.

They cast Miss Fisher and put her in a storyline that is a Murder Mystery.

[Mara]

Wow. I 0% recognized Essie Davis. Not even at all.

[number8]

She has looked unrecognizable in everything I've seen her in. This, Babadook, Miss Fisher, Matrix, The Slap. She has a drastically different hairstyle every time.

[Ezee E]

She has looked unrecognizable in everything I've seen her in. This, Babadook, Miss Fisher, Matrix, The Slap. She has a drastically different hairstyle every time.

Yeah, I wouldn't have been on the lookout for her anyway, but her Matrix/Thrones/Babadook faces are all so different. Crazy.

[Mara]

Sidenote: my mother, who is not a tv watcher, was having some health problems earlier this year and needed low-energy distractions so I managed to hook her on Miss Fisher's Murder Mysteries. I've never seen my mom fan out about anything but boy howdy did she get into that show. She got all her friends watching it and wanted to talk about it all the time and told me how hard it was to only watch one episode per day.

She said to me, "Did you know some people watch more than one episode per day?"

I said, "Yeah, we call that binge-watching."

She said, "Yes, binge-watching! That!" Then her voice got really quiet and fearful and she asked, "[ME], do you... binge?"

And, like, I hated to disappoint my mom, but that seemed like a pretty major lie to tell someone I love, so I said, "Yeah, Mom, I sometimes binge."

:)

[Watashi]

This show just need to get to the Trial of Combat already.