Match Cut Director Canon Consensus - Kiyoshi Kurosawa

[Raiders]

Alrighty, so we're on to week four of the consensus. PLEASE review the rules and information contained in the main thread:

Results & Rules (http://match-cut.org/showthread.php?t=426)

Week Four: Kiyoshi Kurosawa

http://www.dvdconfidential.com/uploaded_images/pulse-724391.jpg

[Boner M]

Pulse - 8

Will watch Retribution this week.

[Ezee E]

Pulse - 4

I plan to watch Bright Future this week.

What was the one about cancer with Kurosawa? I swear it was on Netflix, but there's nothing of the kind now.

[Sven]

Cure - 7.5
Charisma - 7
Pulse - 4.5
Bright Future - 8.5
Doppelganger - 10
Retribution - 4

[Raiders]

Cure (1997) - 8.5
Seance (2000) - 9.0
Pulse (2001) - 10.0
Bright Future (2003) - 7.0
Doppelganger (2003) - 8.0
Loft (2005) - 7.0

I'll attempt to watch Bright Future and/or Charisma by the end of the week.

[dreamdead]

Cure - 9
Charisma - 6.5
Seance - 8.5
Pulse - 10
Bright Future - 9
Doppelganger - 6.5

[Yxklyx]

Pulse - 8

[Kurious Jorge v3.1]

Cure - 9
Pulse - 4
Bright Future - 6

[Raiders]

Pulse - 4




Pulse - 4.5



Pulse - 4

Positively absurd.

[Spinal]

Pulse - 9

[Sycophant]

Cure - 10.0
License to Live - 9.5
Eyes of the Spider - 8.0
Serpent's Path - 8.5
Charisma - 7.5
Seance - 8.5
Pulse - 8.5
Bright Future - 9.0
Doppelganger - 10.0
Retribution - 6.0

[Eleven]

Cure - 10
Seance - 7.5
Pulse - 9
Bright Future - 7
Doppelganger - 7.5

[Velocipedist]

*watches movies right now*

[trotchky]

Cure - 5
Bright Future - 5

[Kurosawa Fan]

Pulse - 4.0

[Raiders]

This place isn't good for my blood pressure sometimes.

[Sycophant]

This will be a good excuse to watch the ones I've got lying around on my hard drive, specifically Spider and Serpent's.

[Ezee E]

I just can't comprehend the brilliance of Pulse. I've read the ecstatic reviews, and it just seems like a different movie. How many times do we need to see a ghost approaching us in slow-motion? Good at first, but eventually tiresome.

Cool ending though.

[D_Davis]

Cure - 8
Charisma - 5
Pulse - 8
Bright Future - 7
Doppelganger - 9
Retribution - 4

[Spinal]

It's weird, but I don't remember Pulse as being repetitive. My recollection is that each of those situations were specific and that it was filled with tension throughout.

[Winston*]

Pulse - 9
Retribution - 5

[Raiders]

It's weird, but I don't remember Pulse as being repetitive. My recollection is that each of those situations were specific and that it was filled with tension throughout.

Plus, how much of the film did they really take up? A few minutes total? Not to mention, maybe I'm an easy scare, but the image of the ghost jumping from one corner of the screen to the other, especially in Kurosawa's exquisitely framed and cold atmosphere, made my heart jump a beat.

[Llopin]

The Excitement of the Do-Re-Mi-Fa Girl - 4
Cure - 8.5
Serpent's Path - 7
License to Live - 6.5
Charisma - 7
Pulse - 6
Doppelgänger - 8

[Derek]

Cure - 8.0
Charisma - 6.0
Pulse - 8.5
Bright Future - 7.0
Doppelganger - 7.5


It's weird, but I don't remember Pulse as being repetitive.

That's because you have a good memory. :)

[D_Davis]

It's weird, but I don't remember Pulse as being repetitive. My recollection is that each of those situations were specific and that it was filled with tension throughout.


Plus, how much of the film did they really take up? A few minutes total? Not to mention, maybe I'm an easy scare, but the image of the ghost jumping from one corner of the screen to the other, especially in Kurosawa's exquisitely framed and cold atmosphere, made my heart jump a beat.

Yeah - this film is not repetitive at all. The ghost stuff barely takes up any time.

And, it has the best suicide I've ever seen.

[Spinal]

That's because you have a good memory. :)

I suppose you could say the same about The Godfather. How many times do we need to see someone get shot?

[Sycophant]

I suppose you could say the same about The Godfather. How many times do we need to see someone get shot?Or, man, how about Woody Allen films? Any of them! How many times do we need to see people talking? In New York, no less. :)

[Derek]

And, it has the best suicide I've ever seen.

Yup, what an amazing shot that is. KK is one of the few directors who tends to use digital technology for all the right reasons.

[Ezee E]

Where are the rest of my Pulse haters?

[Sven]

While I don't remember having any problem with the repetitive nature of Pulse (it was the nonsensical plot that distracted me), I think that denying it its cyclical element is not doing the film a favor.

[Stay Puft]

Cure - 9
Charisma - 7
Pulse - 8
Bright Future - 8
Doppelganger - 9

[Derek]

While I don't remember having any problem with the repetitive nature of Pulse (it was the nonsensical plot that distracted me), I think that denying it its cyclical element is not doing the film a favor.

It's cyclical inasmuch the ghosts always look the same and they reappear throughout the film. As others mentioned, they're not even shown all that often and Kurosawa often builds tension through his sound design and calculated framing. I also really don't see what's nonsensical about the plot, considering it's relatively straightforward.

[Kurious Jorge v3.1]

Where are the rest of my Pulse haters?

Right here!

Sorry but that (spoilers because I may be detailing the ending)

demonic thing or whatever it was that reveals itself towards the end was so unbelievably stupid I started laughing with my brother. It's been awhile since I've seen it, but obviously didn't leave that much of an impression.

Cure is so much better.

[Raiders]

Right here!

Sorry but that (spoilers because I may be detailing the ending)

demonic thing or whatever it was that reveals itself towards the end was so unbelievably stupid I started laughing with my brother. It's been awhile since I've seen it, but obviously didn't leave that much of an impression.

Cure is so much better.

Um, what?

[Sycophant]

Yeah, I'm at a total loss.

[Kurious Jorge v3.1]

Um, what?

I'm confused, did I see the right film?

[Sycophant]

I'm confused, did I see the right film?A more detailed explanation might be required, but from where I'm sitting right now, signs point to "no."

[Rowland]

The Guard From the Underground - 4.0
Cure - 9.5
Eyes of the Spider - 8.0
Serpent's Path - 8.5
License to Live - 8.0
Charisma - 5.5
Barren Illusions - 7.0
Seance - 7.5
Pulse - 9.0
Bright Future - 8.5
Doppelganger - 6.0
Loft - 3.0
Retribution - 6.5

[Kurosawa Fan]

I didn't feel any repetition during the film either, but I found it to be totally dull and lifeless. The tension that others speak of was nonexistent for me. I was bored stiff. Plus, I realize suspension of disbelief is mandatory in a "ghost story" of this nature, but a 20-something guy/girl (can't remember which) not knowing about the internet? Really?

That suicide was pretty remarkable though. That was startling, and was the highlight of the film.

[Kurious Jorge v3.1]

I guess I owe it to myself to rewatch it before this closes as I've ruined all credibility of my rating.

[soitgoes...]

Cure - 8.5
Seance - 7.5
Pulse - 8.5

[Rowland]

I'll probably try to see his short movie Bug's House before this is over, and maybe revisit Charisma and Doppelganger.

[Spinal]

I didn't feel any repetition during the film either, but I found it to be totally dull and lifeless. The tension that others speak of was nonexistent for me. I was bored stiff.

Maybe it helped that it hit upon some of my favorite themes, but the film I experienced was about nothing short of the end of the world. I was captivated by how civilization itself seemed to be dying and no one quite knew what to do about it. I was haunted.

[Sven]

It's cyclical inasmuch the ghosts always look the same and they reappear throughout the film. As others mentioned, they're not even shown all that often and Kurosawa often builds tension through his sound design and calculated framing. I also really don't see what's nonsensical about the plot, considering it's relatively straightforward.

I don't know... all that stuff about that abandoned room with the red lines or whatever. It seems like that was the crux on which the narrative attempted to explain the logic behind the internet/ghost/eventual apocalypse connection, but I cannot recall a sound connection.

As for the cyclical nature of the film, I include Kurosawa's sound design and framing as much as I do the supernatural instances. It's a pretty long movie for such a bare premise, and sustaining the tension, the white-knuckle moments blend into a single unit through similar setups. I have no problem with the way that was done, and in fact may be applauding its cohesion. However, coherence is the ultimate issue and, no matter how many critiques I've read, I cannot discern a coherent message from the movie that accounts for its frequently inexplicable happenings. It seems like every review I read sums up the broad, obvious intentions of the film (internet as distancing tool, rendering its users isolated, anonymous, and inconsequential). To that extent, the film was a success. But that's too little for such a wonky and surreal picture.

[D_Davis]

Maybe it helped that it hit upon some of my favorite themes, but the film I experienced was about nothing short of the end of the world. I was captivated by how civilization itself seemed to be dying and no one quite knew what to do about it. I was haunted.

I agree. I think it touched upon a lot of the same themes I find interesting in the kinds of science fiction books I read. It reminded me a bit of PKD, with a little bit of Ballard thrown in for good measure. It examined a lot of themes made popular by the transrealist movement of speculative fiction.

[D_Davis]

That suicide was pretty remarkable though. That was startling, and was the highlight of the film.

I've watched a few times, and I still can't really tell exactly how they did it. I am assuming it is CGI, but it's just so well done.

[Derek]

I don't know... all that stuff about that abandoned room with the red lines or whatever. It seems like that was the crux on which the narrative attempted to explain the logic behind the internet/ghost/eventual apocalypse connection, but I cannot recall a sound connection.

You don't remember Kurosawa building tension through sound in this film??


As for the cyclical nature of the film, I include Kurosawa's sound design and framing as much as I do the supernatural instances. It's a pretty long movie for such a bare premise, and sustaining the tension, the white-knuckle moments blend into a single unit through similar setups. I have no problem with the way that was done, and in fact may be applauding its cohesion. However, coherence is the ultimate issue and, no matter how many critiques I've read, I cannot discern a coherent message from the movie that accounts for its frequently inexplicable happenings. It seems like every review I read sums up the broad, obvious intentions of the film (internet as distancing tool, rendering its users isolated, anonymous, and inconsequential). To that extent, the film was a success. But that's too little for such a wonky and surreal picture.

I'm sorry that exploring the inherent and frightening emptiness behind the most influential and widely used form of technology in the 21st Century isn't a deep enough theme for you, but it sure as hell was for me. It's very strange that you'd suggest that because a film is wonky and surreal, it has the responsibility of exploring deeper themes than other films. I wrote a paper (mostly) contrasting this with the awful American remake, so maybe I'll try digging up some of the things I had to say in favor of Kurosawa's. I'm honestly not sure what "inexplicable" happenings you keep referring to because nothing in the film left me scratching my head, at least not after seeing it a second time.

[Eleven]

You don't remember Kurosawa building tension through sound in this film??

"Sound" as in concrete, literal, definable, not as in aural.

[Sven]

You don't remember Kurosawa building tension through sound in this film??

"Sound" as in "secure". I wasn't talking about his tension there, I was talking about his narrative construction. I suppose I could've worded it clearer. Or are you joking?


I'm sorry that exploring the inherent and frightening emptiness behind the most influential and widely used form of technology in the 21st Century isn't a deep enough theme for you, but it sure as hell was for me.

Did I ever say shallow? No. I said obvious.


It's very strange that you'd suggest that because a film is wonky and surreal, it has the responsibility of exploring deeper themes than other films.

Did I ever say shallow? No. I said obvious. Sue me if I caught a current of complexity that I felt was left unsatisfactorily executed.


I wrote a paper (mostly) contrasting this with the awful American remake, so maybe I'll try digging up some of the things I had to say in favor of Kurosawa's.

I am interested.


I'm honestly not sure what "inexplicable" happenings you keep referring to because nothing in the film left me scratching my head, at least not after seeing it a second time.

Like I said, the whole dark room with the red lines thing (am I right in remembering that it was some kind of pattern made of red electrical tape?) was the crux. And I'm a practitioner of the school of thought that preaches that a second viewing is never necessary. Surely, you're probably right, but unless that first viewing is enticing enough to warrant a revisit (for you it was, for me, it almost is), it's not worth it.

[Derek]

"Sound" as in concrete, literal, definable, not as in aural.

Yup, misread that one.

[Russ]

Pulse - 8.0
Cure - 6.0

[Derek]

"Sound" as in "secure". I wasn't talking about his tension there, I was talking about his narrative construction. I suppose I could've worded it clearer. Or are you joking?

Unfortunately not. :) Temporary brain fart.


Did I ever say shallow? No. I said obvious.

I assumed that's what you meant because saying a theme is obvious and using that as some sort of complaint is absurd. Essentially every film about violence, war, sex, etc. is dealing with an obvious theme and could just as easily be dismissed. I don't see the point of doing this.


I am interested.

Alright, I'll see what I can find and get something up by tonight or tomorrow.


Like I said, the whole dark room with the red lines thing (am I right in remembering that it was some kind of pattern made of red electrical tape?) was the crux. And I'm a practitioner of the school of thought that preaches that a second viewing is never necessary. Surely, you're probably right, but unless that first viewing is enticing enough to warrant a revisit (for you it was, for me, it almost is), it's not worth it.

I didn't mean to suggest you need a second viewing to get it, though I think the Kael method of film viewing is arrogant and borderline retarded. It's like saying I'm only going to look at this painting or read this book once, make up my mind and be done with it forever. I realize this isn't what you're saying, but I figured I'd take the opportunity to throw in my two cents on that. :)

Anyway, I personally wasn't left confused about any of the character's actions or the intent of the film the first time, but it leaves a lot in the gray area, so I'm sure it's different for others. The red electrical tape is simply what they used to seal the doors off because, for some reason, it prevents the ghosts from penetrating. There was no pattern that I can recall.

[origami_mustache]

Cure - 8
Pulse - 8

[Sven]

I assumed that's what you meant because saying a theme is obvious and using that as some sort of complaint is absurd. Essentially every film about violence, war, sex, etc. is dealing with an obvious theme and could just as easily be dismissed. I don't see the point of doing this.

Surely, I'm not dismissing Pulse on the basis of the obviousness of its theme. In fact, I'm not dismissing Pulse at all. I criticize it for feeling like it's trying to be about MORE than just its apparent theme, but being unclear in that regard. It's too tangled up. Complex without clarification.

Heavens, no, I don't wish to have others think that I dismiss things for lack of ambition or complexity. I'm a simpleton, really.


I didn't mean to suggest you need a second viewing to get it, though I think the Kael method of film viewing is arrogant and borderline retarded. It's like saying I'm only going to look at this painting or read this book once, make up my mind and be done with it forever. I realize this isn't what you're saying, but I figured I'd take the opportunity to throw in my two cents on that. :)

I agree completely, despite what it appears my previous statement implies. It's just that if you don't like something and don't feel enticed to watch it again, I don't think you should, sense of duty be damned. I'm a huge rewatcher of movies I like or am curious about. But this you know and acknowledged.


Anyway, I personally wasn't left confused about any of the character's actions or the intent of the film the first time, but it leaves a lot in the gray area, so I'm sure it's different for others. The red electrical tape is simply what they used to seal the doors off because, for some reason, it prevents the ghosts from penetrating. There was no pattern that I can recall.

There was a certain room that the film kept going back to... it was black and it looked like there was demolition all around it. Maybe electrical wires going into it. Couldn't say. Can't remember.

[dreamdead]

I'm gonna lose what little credibility I have left on these forums when I argue that it's no coincidence that Children of Men and Pulse conclude the same basic way--civilization is imploding in on itself, and the only solution (and even that one may only be temporary) is to become rootless, separate from the land. Of course, Slavoj Zizek articulates these points clear in the dvd of CoM, but I see a certain resonance in pairing it up with Kurosawa's film as well. Both end with an uncertain, perhaps false, hope, even though the whole film preceeding them really only articulates destruction. It's an interesting dichotomy.

[Spinal]

I'm gonna lose what little credibility I have left on these forums when I argue that it's no coincidence that Children of Men and Pulse conclude the same basic way....

No, no, no. That's a great comparison. Good thoughts.

[Rowland]

I really do think Pulse benefits from repeat viewings. It may grow less scary from a visceral perspective, but I find that it opens up and resonates more with each viewing. The first viewing is difficult, I'll concede that with the haters, but it's nowhere near as bafflingly obfuscatory as, say, Charisma, and I'd argue that it's a helluva lot more polished formally.

[Derek]

but it's nowhere near as bafflingly obfuscatory as, say, Charisma

Phew, I thought I was the only one lost through long stretches of that one. I'd love to see it again though now that I have some idea of what expect.

[Melville]

Cure - 7

[Sycophant]

Phew, I thought I was the only one lost through long stretches of that one. I'd love to see it again though now that I have some idea of what expect.I came frustratingly near a really good understanding on my second viewing, but there were still some things that just baffled me.

[EyesWideOpen]

Cure - 9.5
Seance - 7.5
Pulse - 8
Bright Future - 9.5
Doppelganger - 8

[Grouchy]

Cure - 9
Retribution - 5

[Bosco B Thug]

Whoo, Kiyoshi!

I can revisit Doppelganger within the week, and hopefully I can seek out Charisma too (less likely).

Cure - 9/10
Pulse - 9/10
Seance - 9/10
Bright Future - 8/10

[Derek]

I am interested.

Ok, here's the one section where I briefly discuss KK's Pulse by itself, though divorced from the comparison, I don't know how insightful it'll be, but hopefully it'll give you an idea of what I think he's after in the film...

"Although the nature of Kairo’s ghosts is partly informed by Japan’s Shinto heritage, it is difficult to see them as containing even a trace of a person’s soul, as in many other J-Horror films. Because their presence is electronic, they take on the menace of modern technology while behaving like a traditional Japanese ghost. Kurosawa’s blending of the past traditions with the inevitable technology of the future is a critical aspect of the film. The traditional actions of the Japanese ghost reflect the isolation he sees in modern society while their technological presence further heightens the thinness of their being and their alienation.

The modernization of Japan since World War II is also partially responsible for the isolation of its inhabitants. Tokyo’s growth during this time led to the dissolution of the traditional Japanese family – a transition reflected beautifully in many of Yasujiro Ozu’s films in the 1950s and ‘60s – as the city transformed into a metropolis. The effect of this change on the individual is explained in Georg Simmel’s “Metropolis and Mental Life” when he posits that in a metropolis, the individual is “offered such an overwhelming fullness of crystallized and impersonalized spirit that the personality, so to speak, cannot maintain itself under its impact.” (Simmel, 422)

This “atrophy of individual culture” is reflected in Kairo through the slow yet inevitable passage of the virus. Depression and suicide spread throughout the city rendering its inhabitants incapable of any human interaction and leaving them with no trace of their individual personality. Their isolation in physical space is an after-effect of the modern city, but Kurosawa uses technology, specifically the Internet, as a catalyst for the complete destruction of individuality, leading eventually to an apocalyptic finale.

Where Western stabs at similar concepts involve evil, menacing technology, the computers in [Kairo] are not malevolent. They are simply tools, just like in real life, through which people can connect with one another virtually while remaining physically apart. (Kalat, 115)

The Internet is Kurosawa’s way of “dealing with a terminally disengaged society, in which, one character claims, ‘living’ people are no different from the dead” (Osmond, 67), thus allowing him to reflect on concerns that have existed in Japan (the dislocation of its citizens due to modern metropolitan life) along with potential ones in the future (the elimination of individual autonomy in the Internet age). Drawing on Japan’s historical understanding of ghosts and transforming them into electronic beings allows him to address problems of both the past and the future. While the Internet is shown as an abyss threatening to envelop all of humanity, it is not a monster attacking an Edenic world, but rather an escalation of the isolation already present in modern Japan. Whereas the birth of metropolitan living isolated the individual spatially, technology, by way of the ghosts, transforms them physically.

At the very least, the Baudrillardian strain of postmodernity shares with these other more popular tales of omniscient electronic media the basic premise that ‘reality’ is now inescapably mediated by spectacle, a form of covert attack in which an electronic mirage is gradually replacing the real world. Long a fixture of the lecture hall, these themes of electronically mediated (and usually alienated) societies have of late proliferated in popular culture as well. (Sconce, 169)

This transformation from reality to “electronic mirage” heightens the individual’s sense of loneliness and depression before “reducing them to sooty silhouettes and smudgy residues, human vapors, shadows on a wall.” (Stephens, 66) While the ghosts in the remake also cause the vaporization of individuals, they do so not simply by joining them, but by attacking and consuming them."

[Rowland]

No mention of their history as the only nation that has been attacked with atomic bombs? This is commonly considered one of the primary roots for this technophobia that informs so much of their art, and it's where I suspect much of the imagery was inspired by, such as the human vapors and the shadows on the wall that you reference.

[D_Davis]

No mention of their history as the only nation that has been attacked with atomic bombs? This is commonly considered one of the primary roots for this technophobia that informs so much of their art, and it's where I suspect much of the imagery was inspired by, such as the human vapors and the shadows on the wall that you reference.

This is true. Japan is the only post-apocalyptic nation in the world, and this fact has shaped a ton of their modern myths and narratives. Japan is fascinated and frightened by the destruction of Japan.

Godzilla, the first monster born of the atomic attack, has been destroying Tokyo for decades.

Akira? BOOOM.

The end of Metropolis...

And the list could go on.

Oshii has said that this is a defining aspect of post WWII Japanese filmmakers.

[Derek]

No mention of their history as the only nation that has been attacked with atomic bombs? This is commonly considered one of the primary roots for this technophobia that informs so much of their art, and it's where I suspect much of the imagery was inspired by, such as the human vapors and the shadows on the wall that you reference.

I suppose since I brought up post-WWII I should have at least mentioned that, but it wasn't really necessary for my overall arguments. Still, you're right that the imagery of incineration was inspired by it, so it definitely is worth mentioning, at least in passing.

[megladon8]

I passed up buying The Guard From Underground today at the Virgin store in Times Square.

'Twas $19.99

From the one or two ratings I've seen on here, looks like I made the right choice.

[Sycophant]

Eyes of the Spider was really good. I think I'm going to watch Serpent's Path... now.

[Rowland]

Eyes of the Spider was really good. I think I'm going to watch Serpent's Path... now.I love how he plays with fractured narrative, formal experimentation, and shifting tones of somber drama and absurd comedy in Eyes of the Spider. Serpent's Path is even better IMO.

[Raiders]

I'll post the results tomorrow night. So you have until then.

[Raiders]

Added Bright Future, which was good but rather disappointing. Kurosawa's film didn't seem as confident or as loopy as his best films. The jellyfish subplot just didn't strike me as being particularly inspired, though like his way-out-there Loft it seems almost as if the non-resolution seems entirely the point. The stuff with the aimless teens (especially those wearing the Che shirts at the end) looking for something to define themselves--so to speak--was easily the best stuff in the film. The actual narrative just kind of got in the way.

I am reminded of some reviewer's remarks that since Pulse, Kurosawa has taken to trying to become the next Bunuel, giving us loopy and almost at times hyper-surreal work. I guess once he hit the apex of his craft in 2001, he set out trying to make different films. It is interesting that while most filmmakers change their style when adapting a different sort of purpose and theme, Kurosawa's style is so defined that he actually trades in multiple genres simultaneously while appearing to some to be simply another J-horror director.

[Sycophant]

Edited to include:

Eyes of the Spider - 8.0
Serpent's Path - 8.5

[Sycophant]

Someone (Criterion, I'm thinking about you) needs to put Serpent's Path and Eyes of the Spider on DVD in a set with high production values and a couple essays. What a fascinating pair of films.

[Rowland]

Added Bright Future, which was good but rather disappointing. Kurosawa's film didn't seem as confident or as loopy as his best films. The jellyfish subplot just didn't strike me as being particularly inspired, though like his way-out-there Loft it seems almost as if the non-resolution seems entirely the point. The stuff with the aimless teens (especially those wearing the Che shirts at the end) looking for something to define themselves--so to speak--was easily the best stuff in the film. The actual narrative just kind of got in the way.I didn't like it much after my first viewing, but it improves with repeat viewings.


I am reminded of some reviewer's remarks that since Pulse, Kurosawa has taken to trying to become the next Bunuel, giving us loopy and almost at times hyper-surreal work.I don't know, many of his movies before Pulse have been loopy and hyper-surreal. Barren Illusions (1999) and Charisma (1999) are both probably his most overtly surreal. I bet a lot of you would really dig the former.

[Rowland]

Someone (Criterion, I'm thinking about you) needs to put Serpent's Path and Eyes of the Spider on DVD in a set with high production values and a couple essays. What a fascinating pair of films.Yeah, it's really amazing how Kurosawa was given the task to make two direct-to-video yakuza movies with most of the same actors and production team, with two weeks of filming time per movie, and he came up with these two wildly disparate pictures that complement each other in such fascinating ways.

Hah, your scores mirror mine, I see. :pritch:

[Sycophant]

Yeah, it's really amazing how Kurosawa was given the task to make two direct-to-video yakuza movies with most of the same actors and production team, with two weeks of filming time per movie, and he came up with these two wildly disparate pictures that complement each other in such fascinating ways.

Hah, your scores mirror mine, I see. :pritch:Individually, they're both interesting and valuable in their own right. The way they use the same basic plot--Sho Aikawa as Naomi Nijima, avenging the death of a murdered daughter--as a jumping-off point for two radically different ideas brings the more subtle elements in each closer to the forefront. Together, the films probably constitute one of the most fascinating viewing experiences I've had.

[Rowland]

Individually, they're both interesting and valuable in their own right. The way they use the same basic plot--Sho Aikawa as Naomi Nijima, avenging the death of a murdered daughter--as a jumping-off point for two radically different ideas brings the more subtle elements in each closer to the forefront. Together, the films probably constitute one of the most fascinating viewing experiences I've had.Any thoughts on Serpent's Path? What did you make of the little girl and the flash-forwards?

[Raiders]

I don't know, many of his movies before Pulse have been loopy and hyper-surreal. Barren Illusions (1999) and Charisma (1999) are both probably his most overtly surreal. I bet a lot of you would really dig the former.

I may be misremembering exactly what the guy said. For my part, I just know that the three I have prior and up to Pulse feel very much more straight J-horror while the three I have seen since feel much more absurd and comedic/satirical in nature.

[Rowland]

I may be misremembering exactly what the guy said. For my part, I just know that the three I have prior and up to Pulse feel very much more straight J-horror while the three I have seen since feel much more absurd and comedic/satirical in nature.That may just be because distributors have only been willing to pick up his early movies that cohere to those genre trappings. Charisma and Barren Illusions have no coherent attributable genre, License to Live is an absurdist tragicomedy, and the two movies Syco and I are discussing are revenge movies that mix all sorts of tones. On the other hand, his most recent movie, Retribution, is probably the closest he has come to making a standard J-Horror.

[Sycophant]

Any thoughts on Serpent's Path? What did you make of the little girl and the flash-forwards?I don't actually recall any flash forward in Serpent's Path, though there were two or three flashback sequences to "one year ago," unless I misunderstood something.

I'm still working out exactly what to make of the little girl in Nijima's class. She's a striking image and an effective symbol of some sort. The scene where she faces Miyashita (and watching his expression change) was heart-stopping.

I'm still working on my thoughts for the film. It certainly gives one a good deal to think about. There's a dark comic element in SP as well as EotS, though it's certainly less pronounced and the former ends on a much more gut-wrenching note. Curiously, it also has jauntier ending music.

[Raiders]

THE RESULTS:

1. Cure (1997) [8.37] (19)
2. Séance (2000) [8.13] (8)
3. Doppelganger (2003) [8.05] (11)
4. Pulse (2001) [7.86] (21)
5. Bright Future (2003) [7.65] (13)
6. Charisma (1999) [6.44] (8)
7. Retribution (2006) [5.17] (6)

The others:

- License to Live (1998) [8.00] (3)
- Serpent's Path (1998) [8.00] (3)
- Eye of the Spider (1998) [8.00] (2)
- Barren Illusions (1999) [7.00] (1)
- Loft (2005) [5.00] (2)
- The Excitement of Do-Re-Mi-Fa Girl (1985) [4.00] (1)
- The Guard from the Underground (1991) [4.00] (1)

Rating: 7.38
http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/5504/kurosawachartfq0.jpg

[Sycophant]

We seem to like this guy quite a bit. Go us!

[Rowland]

I don't actually recall any flash forward in Serpent's Path, though there were two or three flashback sequences to "one year ago," unless I misunderstood something.Flashbacks, that's what I meant. Don't mind me. :)


I'm still working out exactly what to make of the little girl in Nijima's class. She's a striking image and an effective symbol of some sort. The scene where she faces Miyashita (and watching his expression change) was heart-stopping.You are referring to when Miyashita visits Nijima while he's teaching? Yes, that's one of those ineffably creepy moments that Kurosawa is so fond of interjecting into his movies. The scene with the body bag apparition in EotS is another example.

As for the little girl, I have several ideas as to what she may represent, but I'd need to see the movie again to sort them out with more coherence. I may come back here later today and try to jot some of them down.


I'm still working on my thoughts for the film. It certainly gives one a good deal to think about. There's a dark comic element in SP as well as EotS, though it's certainly less pronounced and the former ends on a much more gut-wrenching note. Curiously, it also has jauntier ending music.Yes, the ending of SP is powerful. Miyashita watching his own daughter's video, and the suggestive imagery in the video, is simply terrifying.
As for the music at the end of each, I have a theory about this. The more playful movie of the two ends with a dead-serious, tragic epilogue, casting a downbeat light over the rest of the movie, while the more serious entry ends with a flashback which I believe reveals how the entire movie was a scheme by Nijima with help from "the little girl." Those complex equations they are drawing out represent the machinations being planned for their elaborate revenge scheme. The last line is Miyashita commenting that he doesn't understand what they're doing, to which Nijima simply looks up with a crooked smile, casting the rest of the movie as a sort of pre-calculated game, hence the bouncy music.
Just Kurosawa being his usual sly self.

[Bosco B Thug]

D'oh, tabulations!

Well, nevertheless I watched Doppelganger and I thought it was fan-freakin-tastic. Watching this, preparing to hand out another 9/10 (especially as it began showing its funny-side, became something plain delightful, but then in the end [wisely] eases its way back to confounding philosophical tightrope-walking, as we'd expect from Kurosawa) made me think I should re-figure my "9s across the board" routine with Mr. Kurosawa. I mean, there not being any gradient between my uniform love of his work would definitely come off as thoughtless. What's weird is before I began thinking about this, if I was asked which film was my favorite, I'd have in a second named Pulse because it's so singular, so emblematic of the allegorical horror film, and because of the sheer beauty and force of its visuals and emotions. But if I were to lower any of the 9/10s to an 8.5/10, it would be Pulse. Pulse rides on its emotion and artistry, but much less on intellectual sophistication as in Cure or harrowing realism as in Seance or sardonic bite as in Doppelganger. It's hard to complain about something so breathtaking as Pulse, and while it does have inherent social underpinnings regarding Japan, it's very much a "simplistic" picture, a string of striking, existential, surreal paintings strung together and come to life. Then again, Doppelganger has its own problems, such as Kurosawa's style being much better fitted for somber than comedic and baffling stylistic excess i.e. the split screen wtf?

[Sycophant]

Then again, Doppelganger has its own problems, such as Kurosawa's style being much better fitted for somber than comedic and baffling stylistic excess i.e. the split screen wtf?
Some split screen was necessary, as God doesn't love us enough to send us more than one Koji Yakusho. I actually thought it was pretty well used in the film.

[Rowland]

I haven't seen Doppelganger in a few years, but I recall the split screen being absolutely crazy, and more-often-than-not appearing to be used just for the sake of it. I suppose that suits the irreverent tone.

[Raiders]

The split-screens were pretty brilliant, I would say. Just think of the film's theme. The technique seems almost a prerequisite, and Kurosawa pulls it off beautifully. I love the obvious difference yet the subtle nuance as well exhibited in those moments. In fact, this film's usage is probably just about my favorite use of the technique.

[Rowland]

Just think of the film's theme.Well yeah, that's just about as obvious as the thematic implementation for split-screen can possibly get, but he does seem to have fun experimenting with spatial fracturing and how they can playfully coalesce to relate information and transition between shots.

[Raiders]

Well yeah, that's just about as obvious as the thematic implementation for split-screen can possibly get, but he does seem to have fun experimenting with spatial fracturing and how they can playfully coalesce to relate information and transition between shots.

Exactly. I was merely responding to bosco's scoffing as if the technique was excess. I thought it was rather fundamental.

[Bosco B Thug]

Just think of the film's theme. The divide between his selves? They are stopped being used when lines begin getting blurred. And I guess it does fit at a textural level by tying together their capricious motions with the doppelganger.

The 3-paneled screen and the illimitable playful combinations Kurosawa came up with to use them for were fun and kept my eyes peeled, I'll give it that. I guess excess was the wrong word, because if they were used only once, that would've been even worse. I really meant "indulgance." I don't think the film would've been hurt without it.

[Rowland]

He uses split-screen in Bright Future as well, but it backfires there to an extent because the shorter international cut excises every instance of its use but one scene, so it's awkward to see the technique used only once, and rather unceremoniously at that. The longer Japanese cut uses split-screen several times so it becomes more of a motif, which works better.

[Qrazy]

Surely, I'm not dismissing Pulse on the basis of the obviousness of its theme. In fact, I'm not dismissing Pulse at all. I criticize it for feeling like it's trying to be about MORE than just its apparent theme, but being unclear in that regard. It's too tangled up. Complex without clarification.

Personally I admire the fact that it doesn't spoon feed the viewer. It's the same thing with Cure. Kurosawa broadens the scope of his intent and encourages viewer investigation via a lack of total definitive exlanation for the goings on in his films. Thank God there are no mitochlorians to wrap the stories here (in Cure or Pulse). In as much as Cure is about mesmerism/hypnotism, suggestion, deterministic issues and murder, it's also equally if not more about mental illness, modern anxiety, purposelessness, sexual politics, isolation and family/romantic dynamic. I find KK is a lot like Kim Di Duk in many respects. He has a sound narrative which he develops to a satisfying conclusion, but his interest and focus lies much more clearly on developing tonal uneasiness and elucidating his subtext via the narrative.