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Dukefrukem
04-13-2015, 02:28 AM
Season premiere was good.

Ezee E
04-13-2015, 03:48 AM
Season premiere was good.

'Twas. So many characters, couldn't even fit in Arya. Gah!

number8
04-13-2015, 03:54 AM
Pretty sure that's the first time they used a flashback, right?

Henry Gale
04-13-2015, 04:07 AM
Pretty sure that's the first time they used a flashback, right?

Yup. And it was a nice way of dropping one in. Not a game-changer with its information or employment, but a perfect tone-setter.

I guess by now you guys know the first four episodes that were sent to critics subsquently leaked online last night, right?

Having the first 40% of HBO's scheduled season drained of its exclusivity has gotta hurt. At this point in the series' popularity, especially with it being the most pirated show in the world, that's like the TV equivalent of the first hour of Age of Ultron making its way online.

Ezee E
04-13-2015, 04:32 AM
The flashback doesn't really do anything for Cersei's character though. I guess it kind of gives her more paranoia than straight out anger.

Dukefrukem
04-13-2015, 11:58 AM
I'm really interested in the suggested Tyrion / Targaryen relationship.

Lucky
04-13-2015, 01:02 PM
The flashback doesn't really do anything for Cersei's character though. I guess it kind of gives her more paranoia than straight out anger.

I thought it added another layer of explanation to her dynamic with Margaery. Wasn't necessary, but it explains in more detail why Cersei hated the young pretty Tyrell since day one.

Grouchy
04-13-2015, 02:10 PM
I know people have criticized me in these forums for downloading a lot of the stuff I watch, but the funny thing is I was actually looking forward to watching a new Game of Thrones every Sunday - seemed like a nice day of the week for watching a show like this the old fashioned way.

Now I don't know if I'll be able to resist... Anyone knows how's the quality of the leak?

Dukefrukem
04-13-2015, 02:13 PM
420p quality. Watchable.

I'm paying for HBO and will probably download them to free up my Sunday night. Does that make me a pirate?

Grouchy
04-13-2015, 02:15 PM
420p quality. Watchable.
Nah, I'll stay with the Sundays.

number8
04-13-2015, 02:17 PM
Watch all four and then wait four weeks for the fifth episode? No thank you.

Scar
04-13-2015, 02:31 PM
Watch all four and then wait four weeks for the fifth episode? No thank you.

My thoughts exactly.

And yes Duke, that makes you a pirate.

Qrazy
04-15-2015, 12:51 AM
For those of you that haven't watched all four eps, Arya kills Dumbledore.

Gizmo
04-15-2015, 12:48 PM
For those of you that haven't watched all four eps, Arya kills Dumbledore.

Because he's gay?

number8
04-27-2015, 04:09 AM
That Cersei-Margaery scene is, to me, Game of Thrones at its best.

Ezee E
04-27-2015, 04:20 AM
That Cersei-Margaery scene is, to me, Game of Thrones at its best.

Truly.

Dukefrukem
04-27-2015, 11:41 AM
This season is moving at a snail's pace.

Scar
04-27-2015, 11:56 AM
This season is moving at a snail's pace.

Let them set the table like they do every season.

Ezee E
04-27-2015, 04:04 PM
This season is moving at a snail's pace.

Love everything going on in the House of Black and White.

Tons of setup going on across the board. It's great.

Dukefrukem
04-27-2015, 04:44 PM
Love everything going on in the House of Black and White.

Tons of setup going on across the board. It's great.

House of Black and White? Is that a book thing? I thought we were past the book.

number8
04-27-2015, 05:22 PM
It's where Arya is.

Dukefrukem
04-27-2015, 05:32 PM
Oh yeh, that is the only thing this season that has any build. There's literally no build anywhere else.

number8
04-27-2015, 05:59 PM
WTF do you mean? The Cersei storyline is the most exciting to me right now, Dany is facing a revolution, and Sansa is about to be married into a family that slaughtered hers. I'd say those are all more interesting than Arya's impending training montage.

Ezee E
04-27-2015, 06:00 PM
Oh yeh, that is the only thing this season that has any build. There's literally no build anywhere else.

Are you kidding?

Sansa's story probably has the most going for it right now as conflict brewing. Something big is coming from that.

Arya's story is just in an area that I have yet to see in GoT.

Ezee E
04-27-2015, 06:02 PM
WTF do you mean? The Cersei storyline is the most exciting to me right now, Dany is facing a revolution, and Sansa is about to be married into a family that slaughtered hers. I'd say those are all more interesting than Arya's impending training montage.

I get the feeling that there isn't a standard training montage in Black & White.

At least I hope not.

Dany's struggle with the revolution is pretty good too. A change from her ease of taking over place after place. However, it feels like the scenes we've seen are sort of repeating themselves since last season when the dragons started lighting up goats.

Grouchy
04-27-2015, 06:15 PM
Last night's episode was tremendous. The first two had been kind of slow, but this is Game of Thrones at its best.

Dukefrukem
04-27-2015, 06:18 PM
No I'm not kidding. We're never going to have anything happen with Cersei. They are playing us with her. It's just a tease.

Anything involved with Sansa is so boring I want to tear my eyes out. She sucks at creating drama around her character.

Daenerys trek to Westros has stalled.

Jamie is basically nowhere.

The only people I really care about right now is Jon Snow and Arya.

Tyrion looked like was going to team up with Daenerys which would be interesting but now I dont know what's going on....

Oh and by the fucking way, where the fuck is Bran? "Yeh let's not put him in the first four episodes after making him see visions of this stupid tree and finally reaching it after 4 fucking seasons...."

number8
04-27-2015, 06:19 PM
Dany's struggle with the revolution is pretty good too. A change from her ease of taking over place after place. However, it feels like the scenes we've seen are sort of repeating themselves since last season when the dragons started lighting up goats.

I don't think so. Her people were throwing rocks at her. There's a difference between dissatisfaction and outright resistance.

number8
04-27-2015, 06:20 PM
Oh and by the fucking way, where the fuck is Bran? "Yeh let's not put him in the first four episodes after making him see visions of this stupid tree and finally reaching it after 4 fucking seasons...."

He's not in this season.

Dukefrukem
04-27-2015, 06:21 PM
He's not in this season.

Just awesome....

Ezee E
04-27-2015, 06:26 PM
Just awesome....

It is. There's nothing I like about that storyline. It could disappear, and I'd be completely fine with it.

Ezee E
04-27-2015, 06:30 PM
No I'm not kidding. We're never going to have anything happen with Cersei. They are playing us with her. It's just a tease.

Anything involved with Sansa is so boring I want to tear my eyes out. She sucks at creating drama around her character.

Daenerys trek to Westros has stalled.

Jamie is basically nowhere.

The only people I really care about right now is Jon Snow and Arya.

Tyrion looked like was going to team up with Daenerys which would be interesting but now I dont know what's going on....

Oh and by the fucking way, where the fuck is Bran? "Yeh let's not put him in the first four episodes after making him see visions of this stupid tree and finally reaching it after 4 fucking seasons...."

Sansa's not very eccentric, but there's a different side to her now. But that's not all that's going on there in Winterfell.

Theon Greyjoy will eventually come out of hiding. And Brienne will eventually hit the town too...

There's going to be a lot of blood pouring in Winterfell I think.

Grouchy
04-27-2015, 06:32 PM
That is a hell of a lot of negativity for a series which has always had slow building to a violent, epic climax. Every goddamn season so far.

About the only thing I agree with is that it pisses me off not seeing Bran for an entire season, but there are way too many characters and storylines going on to care right now.

Cercei vs. Margarey will not end up nicely.

number8
04-27-2015, 06:33 PM
Eh, people get attached to different things. It's the beauty of ensembles. I want more Sansa and Littlefinger than Jon Snow, but they both have a purpose.

I also seem to be less taken by Stannis than a lot of fans, who are constantly going gaga over him with all this "Stannis the Mannis" stuff. I would honestly rather see more scenes of Ser Davos learning to read than another Stannis & Melisandre plotting to be the one true king.

number8
04-27-2015, 06:36 PM
Cercei vs. Margarey will not end up nicely.

I am so stoked for this and I don't actually mind them teasing us with it for as long as possible. Every scene they've had together for the past few seasons have been the most consistently outstanding exchanges on the show, and I love that the tables keep turning between them.

Dukefrukem
04-27-2015, 06:36 PM
I admit I'm being overly negative right now. I'm really just nitpicking on personal stuff. Still love it.

Oh don't get me started on Stannis stuff. Why Jon Snow would ever decline that offer BOGGLES my mind! Here I am thinking Jon is going to become the next Rob and instead he's attached to that STUPID WALL. ARGH!!!

Ezee E
04-27-2015, 06:41 PM
The fact that I didn't even recognize Stannis as a major character until Season 4 is kind of weird to me. He's never one that I'm ecstatic about.

Grouchy
04-27-2015, 06:42 PM
Oh don't get me started on Stannis stuff. Why Jon Snow would ever decline that offer BOGGLES my mind! Here I am thinking Jon is going to become the next Rob and instead he's attached to that STUPID WALL. ARGH!!!
It makes perfect sense as a character choice, though. Jon Snow is so much a product of Ned Stark's parenting (even more than his half-brothers because he's not an acknowledged son) that he almost always will choose honor and duty over his own desires.

Oh, and how about that beheading? How can you say nothing happened in the episode?

DavidSeven
04-27-2015, 06:51 PM
I understand the critique because I think that's become the formula for this entire series. That was my criticism of the last season. The show is all set-up; very little payoff. Send characters toward some destination/meeting/reunion for several episodes and then have something intervene that is out of their control and suddenly they have a new objective before the prior one is ever realized. To me, it was sort of an eye-roller, but all too expected, to see Tyrion snatched at the end of the last episode. The inherent drama of something simple like Tyrion meeting Daenerys is never enough. There is always some stalling event or unexpected ambivalence that keeps this show in perpetual "tease" mode.

Of course, I'm still enjoying it and less of the Bran storyline is a win in my book. But would like to see them divert from this formula at some point.

Dukefrukem
04-27-2015, 06:54 PM
The fact that I didn't even recognize Stannis as a major character until Season 4 is kind of weird to me. He's never one that I'm ecstatic about.

You should have. He was only teamed up with a sexy witch, killed Renly as a freakin' ghost and attacked the Lannisters!

Ezee E
04-27-2015, 06:59 PM
You should have. He was only teamed up with a sexy witch, killed Renly as a freakin' ghost and attacked the Lannisters!

The whole witch and ghost thing... That's right. Meh. Don't care on that one either, lol.

Dukefrukem
04-27-2015, 07:10 PM
The whole witch and ghost thing... That's right. Meh. Don't care on that one either, lol.

Well for me that was huge. The Witch was one of the earliest supernatural elements established in this series.

1. Witch (Black Magic)
2. White Walker (which is another thing we haven't seen in what seems like forever)
3. Mind Control (Sorcery?)
4. Face Changing
5. Dragons

Raiders
04-28-2015, 02:30 AM
To me, it was sort of an eye-roller, but all too expected, to see Tyrion snatched at the end of the last episode. The inherent drama of something simple like Tyrion meeting Daenerys is never enough. There is always some stalling event or unexpected ambivalence that keeps this show in perpetual "tease" mode.

Well, to be fair, I assume he is still going to the same place, just under a different pretense.

number8
04-28-2015, 03:00 AM
A sack instead of a box. Maybe Tyrion ends up preferring it.

Ezee E
05-04-2015, 04:12 AM
Things happened.

Dukefrukem
05-04-2015, 12:10 PM
Ha .

Ezee E
05-04-2015, 11:10 PM
Two uprisings, and Winterfell about to go down in flames too. Will there even be a world at the end of this for the Ice Walkers to take?

Qrazy
05-05-2015, 05:39 AM
I understand the critique because I think that's become the formula for this entire series. That was my criticism of the last season. The show is all set-up; very little payoff. Send characters toward some destination/meeting/reunion for several episodes and then have something intervene that is out of their control and suddenly they have a new objective before the prior one is ever realized. To me, it was sort of an eye-roller, but all too expected, to see Tyrion snatched at the end of the last episode. The inherent drama of something simple like Tyrion meeting Daenerys is never enough. There is always some stalling event or unexpected ambivalence that keeps this show in perpetual "tease" mode.

Of course, I'm still enjoying it and less of the Bran storyline is a win in my book. But would like to see them divert from this formula at some point.

Yes, this is a major problem with Martin's writing. Agreed.

number8
05-11-2015, 04:53 PM
Gorgeous episode.

slqrick
05-11-2015, 10:50 PM
The Volantis boat ride was breathtaking.

Watashi
05-12-2015, 12:52 AM
They aren't being subtle on the Jon Snow/Targaryen link. That's the second episode in a row where it's almost blatantly spelled out. I wonder if it will be revealed by the end of the season.

Ezee E
05-12-2015, 05:14 AM
That's one of those episodes where you immediately start watching the next one if you were able to... Dammit!

Ezee E
05-18-2015, 07:02 AM
Gah. How is there no discussion?

Dukefrukem
05-18-2015, 11:56 AM
Good episode.

slqrick
05-18-2015, 02:19 PM
Horrifying, repugnant shit. Totally unnecessary for the story.

Dukefrukem
05-18-2015, 02:46 PM
Horrifying, repugnant shit. Totally unnecessary for the story.

...other than that. Yeh I was taken back a bit. I actually had forgotten about the end because I made myself forget. To end an episode on that note is tough. Then it goes right into Silicon Valley. Yeesh.

Ezee E
05-18-2015, 04:07 PM
Not sure why there's so much criticism on that final scene considering it's not at all surprising from Ramsay.

The whole final half hour was certainly uncomfortable but well executed. Who knew there would be a character more hated that Joffrey?

Also, Eko Adebisi is the one thing to cheer about, even if his way of being dissuaded by Lannister wasn't very convincing (albeit hilarious).

Lazlo
05-18-2015, 04:21 PM
Not sure why there's so much criticism on that final scene considering it's not at all surprising from Ramsay.

The whole final half hour was certainly uncomfortable but well executed. Who knew there would be a character more hated that Joffrey?

Also, Eko Adebisi is the one thing to cheer about, even if his way of being dissuaded by Lannister wasn't very convincing (albeit hilarious).

That "cock merchant" line was hilarious.

Arya's trip to the face vault wowed me. Just beautiful.

I think the final scene's worth will heavily depend on the payoff. Will Sansa be dealing with the emotional repercussions of the rape for the rest of the season or will its impact be misunderstood and mishandled by Benioff and Weiss just like they failed to understand and pay off Daenerys' and Cersei's assaults?

Grouchy
05-18-2015, 08:35 PM
I don't really get it. People expected a sadist like Ramsay to be a loving husband on his wedding night? It's a tough scene, sure, but completely in line with the show.

Arya's story is fascinating. I can't wait to see where that leads. And what was what we were saying, 8? Cersei's revenge didn't take long.

[ETM]
05-18-2015, 09:54 PM
completely in line with the show.

That's just it. They invented it, could have done it a number of ways and still be completely in line with the books, yet they went with rape. Again.

Grouchy
05-19-2015, 12:04 AM
;540166']That's just it. They invented it, could have done it a number of ways and still be completely in line with the books, yet they went with rape. Again.
Well, I haven't read the books so I don't know what becomes of Sansa in them.

In the TV show... I don't see the problem. Ramsay has already been established as a sexual sadist and a psychopath.

amberlita
05-19-2015, 12:23 AM
I don't know why they couldn't still kill Tyrion but not cut his dick off. Then deliver the body to the cock merchant with the cock intact, let him cut the dick off himself to prove it came from an actual dwarf. Poof. Problem solved.

number8
05-19-2015, 01:55 AM
I cannot deny that it is utterly comical that the show had three major characters violently raped when they weren't in the books. It's not even about faithfulness, because I'm loving a lot of the changes. It just comes across as a writing crutch.

"We need a turning point for this female character."
"What do we do?"
"Let's have her raped."
"Ooh, drama!"

Also, hearing people say "That's just how it was for women in the Middle Ages" about made up fantasy worlds is seriously one of my biggest pet peeves, so on a personal level, I hate rape scenes in fantasy works because I'm bound to hear that line come out of some dumb fucking mouthbreather's mouth.

number8
05-19-2015, 02:04 AM
Whatever, I'm all about Cersei this episode. Hilarious exchange with Littlefinger.

Ezee E
05-19-2015, 02:30 AM
Didn't the Cersei one happen in the book? That one I can understand being out of line. It came out of nowhere and hasn't been addressed since. I even think the creators mentioned that they didn't think it was rape, I thought.

It would be criminal to ignore Sansa's. It was clearly the hitting point of the episode.

number8
05-19-2015, 02:51 AM
No, Jamie did not rape Cersei in the books.

Ivan Drago
05-19-2015, 03:19 AM
Sansa's always been one of my favorite characters in the show, so I can't say it didn't affect me. At the same time, I can't help but play devil's advocate and think it's Benioff/Weiss's equivalent to Orci/Kurtzman's magic blood.

Very good episode, otherwise. Loved the scene where Arya goes into the giant chamber.

Ezee E
05-19-2015, 03:34 AM
No, Jamie did not rape Cersei in the books.

Not that it really matters.

It is kind of funny reading tweets about the anger being about it simply not being in the books rather then the act itself.

DavidSeven
05-19-2015, 07:47 AM
Man, I just have to say it.

That scene was unforgivable. And to drop it in as a blatant episode cliffhanger? I've had issues with the writing on this show for a while, but this really puts it in a new light for me. I don't know that I'll ever hold these guys in much regard at this point, and, believe me, that was starting to wane long before this episode. They are tapped dry of ideas for how to make this show work on TV.

I mean, formulate your defenses or whatever. But we already knew Ramsay is the worst kind of human being and that Sansa's life was shit. The scene revealed nothing and certainly feels like an unnecessary piece of repugnance used purely for end-of-episode shock value and emotional manipulation. The real topper was that the final frames focused entirely on the reactions of a side character who has been rendered utterly useless. As if pointing out that Theon has been pushed to the brink is somehow new. I certainly hope, for their sake, that giving a throwaway male character a turning-point wasn't the sole point of this ugliness.

Dukefrukem
05-19-2015, 12:11 PM
Man, I just have to say it.

That scene was unforgivable. And to drop it in as a blatant episode cliffhanger? I've had issues with the writing on this show for a while, but this really puts it in a new light for me. I don't know that I'll ever hold these guys in much regard at this point, and, believe me, that was starting to wane long before this episode. They are tapped dry of ideas for how to make this show work on TV.

I mean, formulate your defenses or whatever. But we already knew Ramsay is the worst kind of human being and that Sansa's life was shit. The scene revealed nothing and certainly feels like an unnecessary piece of repugnance used purely for end-of-episode shock value and emotional manipulation. The real topper was that the final frames focused entirely on the reactions of a side character who has been rendered utterly useless. As if pointing out that Theon has been pushed to the brink is somehow new. I certainly hope, for their sake, that giving a throwaway male character a turning-point wasn't the sole point of this ugliness.

The only thing I can think of, is Sansa is going to come out of this more powerful than we could possibly imagine.

Raiders
05-19-2015, 12:14 PM
Is rape worse than murder? I only ask, because if he had killed her right there, would we be saying the same? Rape, or sexual predator behavior, is very clearly a weapon used in this kingdom. Ramsay does do raping in the books, if we want to take that angle, but it isn't Sansa he marries. He always looks to exert immediately his dominance over his captives, and he definitely views his wife as a captive.

I mean, they've murdered babies on this show. I'm not sure why Sansa having her husband force himself on her is the tipping point. It's all disgusting. Are we not allowed to script ugliness anymore? Does this moment not have a lasting impact every time we see Sansa going forward? Would Ramsay telling us he did it be the same?

The Cersei-Jaime thing was like, 100 times worse to me.

number8
05-19-2015, 01:04 PM
I don't think the issue is the actual act, but the "her too?" nature of it that I found almost comical. I'm also willing to wait to see how it plays out, but I found it especially tiresome that the camera stayed on Theon's face and ended on it, as if to imply that he will be the character most affected by the act. Like Sansa was a prop in the conflict between the two, which is especially deflating since they were just starting to set her up as having something to do instead of just being carted from one castle to another getting terrible shit to happen to her before being rescued by someone else. All the other victims on the show (Tyrion, for example, whose main plot trait is also being repeatedly imprisoned and threatened because of his biology) seem to have more of defense mechanism in place, as we saw again this episode in its best scene.

On a more general note, I have always held the opinion that depictions of rape in media ought to be a little more thoughtful than depictions of murder, partly because it's not an ending for the character and you better have something in mind for them after that, and partly because I don't imagine there are millions of murder victims out there watching movies and television. There's also the fact that depictions of murder tend to be more gender-neutral, but I guess that's a whole nother can of worms.

Raiders
05-19-2015, 01:17 PM
I don't think the issue is the actual act, but the "her too?" nature of it that I found almost comical. I'm also willing to wait to see how it plays out, but I found it especially tiresome that the camera stayed on Theon's face and ended on it, as if to imply that he will be the character most affected by the act. Like Sansa was a prop in the conflict between the two, which is especially deflating since they were just starting to set her up as having something to do instead of just being carted from one castle to another getting terrible shit to happen to her before being rescued by someone else. All the other victims on the show (Tyrion, for example, whose main plot trait is also being repeatedly imprisoned and threatened because of his biology) seem to have more of defense mechanism in place, as we saw again this episode in its best scene.

It's definitely true that something needs to be made of this, but I think it still sets up to have a lasting impact regardless of whether it is directly mentioned again. I do definitely agree that only focusing on Theon was a mistake. I get it, but it's a bizarre way to compartmentalize the trauma.


On a more general note, I have always held the opinion that depictions of rape in media ought to be a little more thoughtful than depictions of murder, partly because it's not an ending for the character and you better have something in mind for them after that, and partly because I don't imagine there are millions of murder victims out there watching movies and television. There's also the fact that depictions of murder tend to be more gender-neutral, but I guess that's a whole nother can of worms.

Well, the true lasting victims of murder aren't those killed, but you're right in any case. It is a more sensitive matter, though a lot of this outrage doesn't seem to be concerned about rape victims watching the show but rather that the creators have yet again resorted to this means of violence and against an already downtrodden character. I don't take so much issue with that myself. It felt like a rather logical outcome to her bad situation, one I think she herself would not have been unable to see coming, however horrific that actually is.

DavidSeven
05-19-2015, 05:10 PM
I think the perceived female-specific nature of the victimization is certainly a part of it. But I also think people's gut feeling on the perceived brutality or ugliness of the act itself plays a factor (particular in light of Sansa's age, circumstances, etc.), and I don't think that's necessarily wrong. I mean, not all murder is equal either. For example, Ramsay ordering Sansa to die by guillotine or nudging her through a hole in floor may not elicit the same response as having her violently tortured to death (which I am quite sure would have also elicited a very negative audience reaction). The audience is going to react to the brutality that's shown or strongly implied based on the extent to which they feel it's necessary for the story. Even people who aren't consciously watching TV with these things in mind have a sense for it when it pops up. I think the avalanche of criticism that the show is receiving now is indicative of their mis-assessment of the audience's sensitivities. I don't think people are necessarily taking a black/white stance on the depiction of that type of act itself (though that may be how they're verbalizing now), but more so reacting off what they are consciously or unconsciously perceiving as a very ugly scene of brutality that feels unnecessary to the narrative. I'm sure there are other types of acts that likely would've elicited similar outrage if put within the right context.

Personally, I am someone who has a hard time with the Ramsay stuff since the beginning, even when it was targeted solely at Theon. The prolonged torture of Theon is right there as one of my least favorite aspects of this show, so I don't know that this last scene was a "tipping point" moment for me. Just another example of a show highlighting ugly brutality that I don't find terribly compelling, interesting or particularly well thought out. And yes, perhaps within this specific set of circumstances that outcome for Sansa was inevitable; however, the writers control the circumstances too, so I can't see that as a justification.

Benny Profane
05-19-2015, 05:14 PM
I really thought Sansa was gonna have a shiv or something up her sleeve as she started undressing. Or that Reek was gonna snap out of it and start slashing throats. Anyway, it was the last scene. How can we know if it will be used for plot development or not yet? We'll find out soon if it was gratuitous or not.

The sand snakes sure were a letdown. The whole Dorne story has been one embarrassment after another this season. Really came to a head last night how cheesy that plotline has been. But it was cute that Jaime and his wisecracking sidekick got to play dress-up.

I think we've sat through enough gentle corpse cleansings this season. Time to get Arya's story going quickly. At least the sets are incredible looking.

Overall this season seems aimless and slow.

number8
05-19-2015, 08:21 PM
Well, the true lasting victims of murder aren't those killed, but you're right in any case. It is a more sensitive matter, though a lot of this outrage doesn't seem to be concerned about rape victims watching the show but rather that the creators have yet again resorted to this means of violence and against an already downtrodden character. I don't take so much issue with that myself. It felt like a rather logical outcome to her bad situation, one I think she herself would not have been unable to see coming, however horrific that actually is.

I definitely think Sansa went in knowing that it would be waiting for her. They set that up pretty blatantly with the bathtub scene. You can argue that she still doesn't have much of a choice at all since she's playing out Littlefinger's plan rather than her own, but regardless, it's clearly laid out that Sansa is actively taking this burden on while waiting for some kind of an endgame, which is why I said I'm willing to see how this plays out.

Also, two additional thoughts on murder vs rape that just came to me:

1) Setting aside real life victims for a moment, (and strictly speaking about the first world since that's where the fictions we're talking about are made and mostly consumed), rape tends to reach across the screen more viscerally because it's more of a plausible reality to most people. For better or worse every single one of my female friends have told me that being careful not to get taken advantage of is something that they have to keep in mind when they go hit a bar, or go out on a date. When I go on a date my worst case scenario is me saying something that makes me look like a dick, not being horribly murdered. So I think there's a very wide margin of comparison between me watching a character being brutally murdered and thinking, "I hope that never happens to me!" and my sister watching a female character being brutally raped and thinking, "I hope that never happens to me!"

2) It's very hard to sensationalize or elaborately or cartoonishly rape someone, so any time a female character is raped by another character, it doesn't matter if it's in a castle, spaceship, zombie apocalypse, or superhero headquarters. The direct circumstance is gonna be identical to the real life experiences of a lot of women, because you just don't see a lot of plot-entwined reasons for rape. Ramsay rapes Sansa to exert dominance over her, just like real rapists, not because her rape tears is the key defeat the White Walkers or whatever. In contrast, murders are highly fantasized in fiction. Not a lot of people are going to see being gunned down in an epic gun fight, beheadings on a chopping block, burning at stakes, or having half your face blown off by a nursing home bomb as reminders of their real life trauma. When murders in fiction do hew close to something that feels likely to any of us, I think people also feel upset watching them, accordingly.

Russ
05-19-2015, 10:25 PM
I definitely think Sansa went in knowing that it would be waiting for her...which is why I said I'm willing to see how this plays out.
I haven't read any of the books, so I'm assuming this has yet to be addressed there? And parenthetically, the same with Theon: has it already been established that his role in all of this won't come into play? Most of the comments seem to criticize and/or brush off the lingering camera on his expression before the fade to black. Just from that alone, I'd be willing to bet he plays some significant role down the line.

Lazlo
05-19-2015, 10:51 PM
I haven't read any of the books, so I'm assuming this has yet to be addressed there? And parenthetically, the same with Theon: has it already been established that his role in all of this won't come into play? Most of the comments seem to criticize and/or brush off the lingering camera on his expression before the fade to black. Just from that alone, I'd be willing to bet he plays some significant role down the line.

In the books, Sansa's storyline with the Bolton's actually happens to a completely different character, a commoner posing as Arya. In the scene in question, Theon is coerced by Ramsey into participating, not just watching.

The problem with the camera lingering on Theon, even if it contributes to him "snapping out of it" or doing something heroic, it still required ridiculous and grotesque suffering for Sansa. So she gets emotionally and physically demolished just so Theon can have his hero's moment? Why can't Sansa be heroic? Why does a marginalized and useless character get to have redemption through her suffering? The scene (if it has to happen at all) should be about Sansa's trauma, not Theon's. There's such a thing as restraint, and Benioff and Weiss seem to be unaware of it. We can assume that Sansa is having a terrible time being married to Ramsey without having to see it and depict it in a way that shifts the trauma away from the true victim. We already know Ramsey is a horrible dude. At this point it's just wallowing in misery when clearly these type of scenes have been weighing the show down ever since he was introduced.

Also, there's no confidence that the writers understand the emotional repercussions of rape given that they've failed to include it in the character development of the other victims in the show. It's just another "wow, isn't Westeros horrible?" crutch to throw around.

Dead & Messed Up
05-19-2015, 11:00 PM
... or having half your face blown off by a nursing home bomb...

Spoilers, dude, not all of us saw the Mad Men finale.

Russ
05-20-2015, 03:58 AM
The problem with the camera lingering on Theon...a marginalized and useless character...
But my point is, if the series is so willing to bifurcate from the books' narrative, then how do we know that Theon is ultimately a marginalized and useless character?

DavidSeven
05-20-2015, 04:47 AM
I think the fact that the shooting of the scene suggests it it may merely be a springboard for a marginalized male character to become heroic again is another layer of what is so troubling about it. The fact that he is currently just a minor player in the larger narrative isn't crucial to the critique; it is just further insult to injury. As of now, there is a sense that the show-makers feel his redemption story (if that's where this is going) is a worthy enough cause for the brutal victimizing of one of the show's most prominent female characters. I don't think him becoming significant down the road diminishes the issues people have with this approach.

Obviously, no one can say for sure how this will ultimately play out, but I think it's fair to say the show runners have lost some benefit of the doubt based on how poorly they've addressed prior troublesome scenes.

Lazlo
05-20-2015, 12:15 PM
But my point is, if the series is so willing to bifurcate from the books' narrative, then how do we know that Theon is ultimately a marginalized and useless character?

Maybe not ultimately, but he is currently those things, while Sansa isn't and shouldn't be reduced to a plot point in Theon's rehabilitation. DavidSeven's response is right on.

Qrazy
05-22-2015, 11:14 PM
I did not like the scene either but it seemed clear to me that it was a set up, hence the lingering on Theon. Further evidence of this is having him state his name at the wedding versus referring to himself as Reek. He isn't entirely broken. My guess is Theon will eventually attain some marginal redemption by sacrificing himself and perhaps killing Ramsay to aid the Starks.

I also think Sansa will become a bad ass in the not too distant future.

number8
05-25-2015, 04:13 AM
Ah, the ol' stop a rape attempt method of seduction.

Dukefrukem
05-25-2015, 10:41 PM
Ah, the ol' stop a rape attempt method of seduction.

That was so annoying.

Ezee E
05-26-2015, 02:29 AM
Definitely a snooze of an episode.

Barty
05-26-2015, 04:54 AM
I thought it was one of the best of the season, if not the best. It was gorgeously shot first off, it had a lot of great scenes and moments, and above all it had a lot of character and plot movement, even if some of it was subtle. Very excited for the next few, as I was probably rank the first part of this season as my least favorite of all of Game of Thrones seasons so far.

Dukefrukem
05-26-2015, 12:02 PM
No Arya so it's automatically not the best.

Ezee E
05-26-2015, 07:48 PM
Don't you all think the whole Tyrion portion is behing handled way too easily?

Sold into slavery, Tyrion to cock merchant... Quickly forgotten about immediately after.
Tyrion manages to convince everyone he's a fighter with a simple beatdown of someone else.
Random slave frees Tyrion for no reason at all.
The fight they're in just happens to be the first that the Queen is at as well.

The other stories are progessing fine. I just found this episode to be a snoozer due to the Sam character. THERE is an example of forcing rape on a female character to advance Sam.

number8
05-26-2015, 08:17 PM
The Castle Black parts were just terrible, but the King's Landing story is so great. I always perk up more whenever Olena Tyrell is involved, and it's a lot of fun watching her interact with the High Sparrow and Littlefinger.

Ezee E
05-26-2015, 10:04 PM
The Castle Black parts were just terrible, but the King's Landing story is so great. I always perk up more whenever Olena Tyrell is involved, and it's a lot of fun watching her interact with the High Sparrow and Littlefinger.

I hope Sam doesn't become a significant character. He's a decent side character for Jon Snow's goals as the only true friend of his. That's all.

Littlefinger's story is certainly shaping up for him to snicker his way into being King. Nobody at King's Landing right now. He's planning to take Winterfell after the Greyjoys and Baratheons likely whittle each other down, and Castle Black in the same scenario really. He'll just have Khaleesi to handle and maybe the Martells?

Ezee E
05-27-2015, 02:20 AM
Also, I guess Theon didn't get to his breaking point after all.

Gizmo
05-27-2015, 03:52 AM
Also, I guess Theon didn't get to his breaking point after all.

Yep, good thing they lingered on him in the previous episode so the payoff of him not having changed a thing could really land this episode.

Lazlo
05-28-2015, 01:39 AM
Yeah, I was willing to give the final scene from 506 a bit of a pass if they made something out of it, but how they handled it this week further proved how unnecessary the scene was. You end the episode with the bedroom door closing on sinister Ramsey face and scared Sansa face and then pick up the storyline with Sansa and Theon's scene from this episode. She's clearly traumatized and we can infer what Ramsey's put her through without ever having to show it. The show just revels in being able to show tasteless shit. Definitely getting to be a tired angle.

EyesWideOpen
05-28-2015, 03:13 AM
I love how quick everyone is to say stuff is unnecessary when the season is not even over yet.

Ezee E
05-28-2015, 03:30 AM
I love how quick everyone is to say stuff is unnecessary when the season is not even over yet.

To Lazlo's defense, if Theon wasn't in the room, there wouldn't have been a difference at this point. His character remained the exact same as he was before and after. Maybe they'll surprise us, but I can't see him being the one that will have a major character change at this point. It'll either be Sansa getting herself out of this, or with the help of Brienne. What that'll do to Theon, I have no idea.

Or Theon gets a chance in the inevitable battle at Winterfell. But that'd be kind of silly.

DavidSeven
05-28-2015, 07:05 AM
I mean, if we had to wait till the end of a season to judge every creative decision then we probably wouldn't have anything to say after each episode.

Ultimately, it's already been inferred that Sansa has now suffered through repeated attacks, so the opportunity for them to actually make something significant of the first assault has sort of passed. How much "time" will have passed between that episode and next week's? Months?

I guess the most logical result of all this is that Sansa eventually, after enduring months of presumed assault, finds a way to get Theon to "snap out of it" and help her. But as people have pointed out, witnessing that first assault ultimately isn't going to be the trigger and leaves one to question why that scene was highlighted as a cliffhanger in the first place.

Anyway, I'm still interested to see how they manage to figure this all out by season's end. It seems dissent and skepticism among the viewership is pretty noticeable for the first time. I don't know if they can defer payoffs for much longer. They're definitely under the microscope.

Putting Gilly "in the mood" for Sam via a near gang-assault was NOT a wise follow-up on their part.

Grouchy
05-28-2015, 01:46 PM
Is it really this troublesome for all of you? I mean, it obviously seems to be, but it baffles me how much of a huge issue that single little scene it's become, specially when so much more is going on in last sunday's episode.

EWO is right. The season is not over yet. We don't know what's unnecessary or not, and besides I don't really see how a rape scene is so much more tasteless than gouging someone's eyes out or torturing someone until they lose their identity.

number8
05-28-2015, 01:58 PM
I don't think I have more to say about it than the posts I wrote earlier about why I find depictions of rape a lot more dicey than depictions of violence, but I do find it interesting that in just a decade, our television landscape has changed so much so that it's no longer considered valid to judge television shows by piecemeal rather than as a whole. It now demands a semblance of dedication to form a valid opinion.

It's especially interesting because I'd like to propose the notion that Game of Thrones is much closer to a procedural than a serial show.

Grouchy
05-28-2015, 02:03 PM
It's especially interesting because I'd like to propose the notion that Game of Thrones is much closer to a procedural than a serial show.
Explain.

EyesWideOpen
05-28-2015, 02:48 PM
Of course people can have opinions but for a show where it's all about the long haul to claim a scene is unnecessary after one episode is shortsighted.

Dukefrukem
05-28-2015, 02:49 PM
Is it really this troublesome for all of you? I mean, it obviously seems to be, but it baffles me how much of a huge issue that single little scene it's become, specially when so much more is going on in last sunday's episode.

EWO is right. The season is not over yet. We don't know what's unnecessary or not, and besides I don't really see how a rape scene is so much more tasteless than gouging someone's eyes out or torturing someone until they lose their identity.

Or how about... you know? The other two rape scenes in previous episodes that no one cared about?

Grouchy
05-28-2015, 04:23 PM
Or how about... you know? The other two rape scenes in previous episodes that no one cared about?
Well... I'm assuming you're talking about Drogo/Daenerys and Jaime/Cersei. What was wrong with those scenes?

Lazlo
05-28-2015, 04:27 PM
Or how about... you know? The other two rape scenes in previous episodes that no one cared about?

People cared. There was a lot of talk about the Cersei/Jaime scene last year, especially given that it didn't happen that way in the books and no one associated with the show seemed to understand that they'd depicted a rape. Troubling.

I'm down for calling 506's rape scene unnecessary because of the way 507's first scene with Sansa and Theon played out. You don't have to show every single act of depravity in this world. We get it. She's clearly traumatized in this most recent episode, her dialogue lays out what's been happening to her, we didn't need to see the act itself. Rape is too often used as a narrative shortcut to be edgy without having earned the emotional fallout the act creates. The show wallows in things like this and it's very much becoming a "just because you can, doesn't mean you should" situation.

EyesWideOpen
06-01-2015, 02:24 AM
That final scene.

Dukefrukem
06-01-2015, 02:32 AM
So good.

Scar
06-01-2015, 02:34 AM
Just another boring episode....

number8
06-01-2015, 03:04 AM
Eh. Nothing happened. [/E]

Ezee E
06-01-2015, 04:46 AM
This got locked for some reason?

Ezee E
06-01-2015, 04:47 AM
I'm insane.

Anyway, yeah, that episode.

Terrifying ending really.

Thirdmango
06-01-2015, 07:45 AM
I'm re-opening it. Also great episode.

Thirdmango
06-01-2015, 07:47 AM
What I think this episode should be called.

Winter is here, we're boned.

Dukefrukem
06-01-2015, 11:30 AM
Well it's been about 2 seasons without seeing a White Walker, it's nice they made their triumphant return.

number8
06-01-2015, 02:12 PM
Huh? The White Walkers have showed up every single season. They appeared last season. People flipped their shit over the scene.

Dukefrukem
06-01-2015, 03:22 PM
They show up so seldom I don't even know what you're referring to.

The only scenes that come to mind was the original scene with the possessed little girl in the first season, the finale where the camera pans back and shows how large it is, the one that attacked Jon Snow / the baby sacrifice scene and the scene where Sam killed one. I feel like that latter scene was in Season 3.

number8
06-01-2015, 03:26 PM
Sam killing one was Season 3.

Darth Maul White Walker first appeared last season, in the baby sacrifice scene. It was the very first time the show revealed something not known in the books, so people flipped out.

dreamdead
06-01-2015, 03:36 PM
So who all has Valyrian Steel? Brienne, Jon, and who else?

This episode was wonderful--the show had started to settle into a pattern where the ninth episode was the huge action episode. This one was shocking in part because it's placement appeared before my expectations. (and yay for Mastodon cameos with the Wildings.) Not sure if Sansa and Greyjoy can resurrect interest in the Ramsay storyline--who's a Joffrey without charisma currently, but I'm optimistic that the Brienne angle can aid that muted narrative.

Most of all, the payoff with Tyrion and Daenerys was phenomenal; long-awaited and deserved verbal sparing.

number8
06-01-2015, 04:24 PM
Yeah, before the battle scene, I was already thinking the episode was great because of the Tyrion/Daenerys scenes. I love that Jorah is just absolutely refusing to let go.

Also, I'm now strangely rooting for Cersei to kill these nuns. Dammit.

Grouchy
06-01-2015, 11:33 PM
Also, I'm now strangely rooting for Cersei to kill these nuns. Dammit.
Same here. Some villains on this show (Cersei and Lord Baelish for me) are so charismatic and well drawn that they inspire that kind of loyalty.

On the other side of the spectrum are people like Joffrey or Ramsay. I completely disagree with dreamdead, that storyline is still interesting.

Ezee E
06-02-2015, 12:57 AM
Same here. Some villains on this show (Cersei and Lord Baelish for me) are so charismatic and well drawn that they inspire that kind of loyalty.

On the other side of the spectrum are people like Joffrey or Ramsay. I completely disagree with dreamdead, that storyline is still interesting.

Yeah, Ramsay is pretty damn good in his role. The backlit two-shot of Theon and Sansa was great.

Each scene was splendid this week.

Pretty sure Cersei isn't going to get any sort of revenge here. This season...

Peng
06-02-2015, 02:16 AM
Yeah, the latter half of last episode and most of this one are how to deviate from the books. Great ep.

Can't wait for next week, considering the episode's name. Really want to see how that storyline's deviation is coming into play.

Thirdmango
06-02-2015, 10:39 AM
The cool baby sacrifice scene was season 4. If you want to rewatch it and see how they introduce the walker king here is a youtube video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaXbz6YZt9U

Go to 26 minutes or so into the video.

Dukefrukem
06-02-2015, 12:49 PM
Ah thanks. God that feels like years ago. I would have put money that it was Season 3.

number8
06-02-2015, 02:33 PM
So who all has Valyrian Steel? Brienne, Jon, and who else?

Tommen.

Remember, Tywin melted down Ned's sword and turned it into two swords, one for Jamie and one for Joffrey. Jamie's is with Brienne and Joffrey's is with Tommen.

Also, Catelyn had that valyrian dagger in Season 1 but I have no idea where that is now. I think the show might have forgotten about it?

Lucky
06-02-2015, 05:07 PM
Winter came. And so did I.

Grouchy
06-03-2015, 03:32 PM
Also, Catelyn had that valyrian dagger in Season 1 but I have no idea where that is now. I think the show might have forgotten about it?
Walder Frey?

amberlita
06-03-2015, 06:35 PM
I have found Grantland's "Ask the Maester" weekly series to be extremely helpful for these sorts of questions. Usually comes out the Tuesday after an episode and almost always answers the exact questions I have after an episode.

http://grantland.com/hollywood-prospectus/ask-the-maester-the-origin-of-the-nights-king-the-wights-and-dragonglass/

Here's the part regarding Valyrian Steel weapons:


Charles asks: “Now that we know that a Valyrian steel sword can kill White Walkers, who are the other people who possess one, thereby being a threat to the Others?”

It’s a very, very short list. Way too short to make a difference. In all of the North, we know for sure of two Valyrian weapons. Brienne, lurking outside Winterfell, has Oathkeeper — one of the two blades forged from Ice, the Stark family sword, which Tywin Lannister had melted down. And Jon, of course, has Longclaw, originally the sword of Lord Commander Mormont. The dagger used by the unnamed assassin in the attempt on Bran Stark’s life in Season 1 was Valyrian, but who knows where that thing is now.

In the rest of Westeros, things don’t look much better. There’s Heartsbane, wielded by Sam’s dad, Randyll Tarly in the Reach. Lady Forlorn is not only a country-pop trio, it’s also the name of the family sword of House Corbray of the Vale. Joffrey’s Widow’s Wail, the other sword forged from Ned Stark’s Ice, is now presumably in the possession of King Tommen, who wouldn’t cut a piece of roasted venison without asking his mother’s permission first. The tiny Iron Islands boast two Valyrian steel weapons: Nightfall is the family sword of the Harlaws, an ancient and powerful Ironborn house; and House Drumm hold Red Rain, which their ancestor Hilmar stole from some unnamed knight, thus earning Hilmar the sobriquet “The Cunning.” Finally, rumor has it that tiny and ancient House Celtigar have, among the many treasures overfilling their castle on Claw Isle, an ax of Valyrian steel.

Additionally, there are a half-dozen notable Valyrian weapons whose whereabouts are unknown. Most famous of these are the original Lannister family sword Brightroar, lost when King Tommen II disappeared in Valyria back in the day; Blackfyre, the sword of Aegon the Conqueror, which is probably in Essos somewhere; and Dark Sister, the sword of Aegon the Conqueror’s more martial sister-wife Visenya, which was last known to be held by the Targaryen great bastard Brynden Rivers. Brynden was sent to Castle Black back in 233 AC, and he eventually rose to Lord Commander. If Lord Brynden was allowed to take the sword when he took the black (which seems highly unlikely), there’s a chance he may still have it with him under the great weirwood far beyond the Wall.

As for making more Valyrian steel, dragonfire is often mentioned as being part of the process used to make the weapons, along with a careful folding of the metal and treating it with some kind of magic. So, while the reappearance of dragons theoretically makes forging new weapons possible, because of access to their fire and the reawakening of magic tied to the rebirth of the beasts, it’s the spellcasting part of the equation that remains a problem. Notably, the Targaryens — in the roughly 150 years of their nearly 300-year reign in Westeros during which they possessed multiple dragons — never forged a new Valyrian weapon. Considering the rarity of the weapons, it seems certain that they would’ve forged more steel if they knew how. Obviously, the spells used to create Valyrian steel were not well known, even among the Valyrian elite.

number8
06-03-2015, 06:54 PM
Why bother forging dragonsteel swords when you can just make a bunch of dragonglass arrowheads?

amberlita
06-03-2015, 07:37 PM
Are you asking me? :D

Dukefrukem
06-04-2015, 07:13 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9q1CXdqtXM

number8
06-08-2015, 03:41 AM
Holy shit, man.

Grouchy
06-08-2015, 04:27 AM
That was glorious.

number8
06-08-2015, 03:09 PM
I feel so vindicated for insisting that Stannis is a chode all this time.

Grouchy
06-08-2015, 05:20 PM
I feel so vindicated for insisting that Stannis is a chode all this time.
Hahahah, yeah, I thought of that. I turned to my friend after that scene and said "my support for Stannis ends here".

number8
06-08-2015, 05:53 PM
Never trust a politician who only listens to his religious advisor.

DavidSeven
06-08-2015, 07:21 PM
It strikes me as odd that Stannis had much audience support to begin with. I suppose they've done an okay job of portraying him as a complicated fellow, but ultimately, the dude shadow-demon-murdered his own brother. You don't come back from that.

Pretty gruesome stuff throughout in this last episode. If the hope is that we start rooting for the White Walkers to put an end to all this misery, then they might be succeeding!

Dukefrukem
06-08-2015, 10:23 PM
That was glorious.

Definitely not the word I would use to describe this episode.

Ezee E
06-08-2015, 10:30 PM
I think I've said it before, but I never really even took a notice of Stannis until last season. I'm not quite sure why. Pretty vile. I like the extended scenes with Davos. In the back of his mind, he knows exactly what's about to happen. I hope we see a scene where the reality dawns on him.

Can't imagine an army will be inspired to follow Stannis into battle after all this. They certainly weren't into the burning either.

Although I guess a good amount of them are simply getting paid anyway.

Grouchy
06-08-2015, 10:30 PM
Definitely not the word I would use to describe this episode.
I meant specifically the ending, but feel free to throw other adjectives.

Dukefrukem
06-08-2015, 10:41 PM
I meant specifically the ending, but feel free to throw other adjectives.

Yeh can't argue with the epicness, but damn Stannis... wtf?

Watashi
06-08-2015, 11:07 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CG9Q2bzUYAAKrIx.png

Scar
06-09-2015, 12:03 AM
I'd rep that twice if I could.

Dukefrukem
06-15-2015, 02:03 AM
I knew something big was coming. Whatever. Now I have no one left to root for.

Scar
06-15-2015, 02:34 AM
:sad panda:

Ivan Drago
06-15-2015, 02:43 AM
And after all that, we have to wait ten months for more.

Shame, indeed.

number8
06-15-2015, 04:45 AM
Fuck you, "Previously on Game of Thrones."

Grouchy
06-15-2015, 05:03 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHbHb0d4x3A

Ezee E
06-15-2015, 05:22 AM
The buildup of the Cersei scene certainly paid off.

A lot of quick cuts without seeing what truly happened. Brienne swinging her sword, Sansa and Theon jumping, Daenerys surrounded, Arya blinded... Biggest cliffhanger ever, only for two scenes to seemingly end in absolutes.

All these deaths frees up room for return of Bran Stark is all... Bah.

amberlita
06-15-2015, 06:05 AM
I refuse to mourn him.

Refuse.

Henry Gale
06-15-2015, 06:38 AM
Pretty devastating and stunning, but without the usual thrill or satisfaction the storytelling usually manages to pair with its biggest and deadliest turns. Most likely because of what you pointed out, E, about a lot of it being left open-ended with potential back-doors to resolve them.

For instance, Melisandre showed up on a pretty perfect day for Jon to be betrayed like that.

Watashi
06-15-2015, 07:54 AM
C'mon. He's not dead. The entire Song of Ice and Fire revolves around him and Dany.

Melisandre will probably resurrect him.

Watashi
06-15-2015, 07:56 AM
Also, this show really likes women.

Raiders
06-15-2015, 10:31 AM
If he's not dead, then Harington is really fucking with people in that EW interview. I'm not sure I remember seeing an actor/filmmaker straight-up lie so directly in an industry interview before if that's really the case.

I must admit, I have to call bullshit on him only because it seems unlikely that Martin, the creators or HBO would want him committing so pointedly the fate of Jon Snow. But if so, wow, he really is trolling the fans then.

EDIT: It seems in a follow-up, Weiss is also committing to him being truly dead.

I swear if this warging thing with Ghost happens, I will laugh all the way. That'll be hilarious following Jon SNow as a freakin' wolf.

Dukefrukem
06-15-2015, 11:17 AM
C'mon. He's not dead. The entire Song of Ice and Fire revolves around him and Dany.

Melisandre will probably resurrect him.

Yeh I feel like this is the way they are heading.

Peng
06-15-2015, 12:19 PM
This season has its ups and (sometimes really cringey) downs, but I am hugely relieved that they didn't go the "two books, two seasons" route as I feared, but covered them more or less all in one season, even factoring in the changes.

Of course, excited for next one, as now book readers are in the same place as non- ones. My enthusiasm may be tampered a little bit by how D&D's deviations from the book this season have been really bumpy and often unsatisfying (although Hardhome is incredible). Still interested to see that, given Martin's outlines and not bound by books' text, how a more free-reigned season from them would look like.

amberlita
06-15-2015, 12:58 PM
C'mon. He's not dead. The entire Song of Ice and Fire revolves around him and Dany.

Melisandre will probably resurrect him.


His significance in the Song of Ice and Fire is just fan theory (well, all of it is I guess since Martin has supplied zero answers). The prophecies and whatnot still work just fine revolving around Dany alone. Besides, the show has never delved deeply into the mythology, so why would the show feel the need to validate book readers' justifications of things that the show has never really committed to depicting? And GRRM himself is always grumbling about the unreliability of prophecy...which is basically a cheap cop out that allows Martin and whomever to ignore large amounts of foreshadowing.

Though I still agree with your spoiler. He can be "truly dead" and not returning in Season 6 if he is brought BACK from the dead in Season 7. Then technically everything Harrington and the show runners are saying in their interviews is true while still concealing his ultimate return.


side note: I think they lightened Kit Harrington's brown eyes in that final overhead shot of him bleeding out, so that they could CGI his pupils dilating as he died - which they totally did because I rewound 3 times to check for it (thank you HD tv). I mean, jeezus, they REALLY want us to think he's dead. So I dunno...

number8
06-15-2015, 01:52 PM
I mean, if he spends the next two seasons as a wolf, then understandably as far as Kit Harrington is concerned, he's dead and moving on from the show.

DavidSeven
06-15-2015, 05:36 PM
The last two scenes were pretty emblematic of the big issues I'm having with this show lately. The Cersei scene was basically an entire season's worth of socially problematic subtext manifest into one overlong, dramatically weak scene, which tries to be compelling throughout its absurd length solely by becoming more grotesque from moment-to-moment.

The last scene, however it turns out, strikes me as another example of the shooting for Twitter outrage as a marker for success. It's like, we get it, Red Wedding was a cool thing for us all to experience as a culture. But they are straining so hard to replicate that moment through child-burnings, sexual assaults, and big-hero-kills that I'm becoming numb to it all. Red Wedding was masterful because it felt like they knew exactly what they were doing. Do we still have that same confidence in this creative unit?

Anyway, I also think these last two seasons have been devoid of the sort of wit that provided much needed levity in early seasons. The story of this season basically vacillated between dull nothingness and outrageous awfulness (by way of girl burning, girl whipping, girl assaulting, etc.) as a change-up from the otherwise dull nothingness. There was that one great episode where Jon Snow set himself apart as the greatest leader in Westeros, which appeared to be the only point of this whole season (besides gender degradation) until the writers decided it was time to troll us again with that last scene and poo-poo on what that episode meant to its audience.

Thrones is cultural touchstone, maybe the last one remaining on TV, so I can't keep myself from watching. But man, I might have to hate-watch this thing like a mother next season. That being said, to see whether or not this really goes off the rails now that D&D have quite a bit of creative freedom will be pretty compelling in itself.

Raiders
06-15-2015, 05:41 PM
Why do you say they have creative freedom? They are still following Martin's storyline (in broad strokes anyway). The series and book will arrive at the same basic outcome.

As for Cersei's scene, it's one time I felt the show did NOT trivialize the brutality it was showing. Unlike Myrcella's death which is just distasteful as can be (hey look, another female tortured/killed for a man to react!), I think the ugliness of King's Landing and the black heart of this culture were laid pretty bare in that Cersei moment. She's evil, but it is quite clear that this world is actually more evil. Also thought Headey did wonderful in that scene. Just wish it could have ended when she walked through the door, not with the Frankenstein's monster moment.

Watashi
06-15-2015, 05:44 PM
I thought Cersei's CGI face on the obvious nude body double was a bit distracting.

Watashi
06-15-2015, 05:47 PM
If he's not dead, then Harington is really fucking with people in that EW interview. I'm not sure I remember seeing an actor/filmmaker straight-up lie so directly in an industry interview before if that's really the case.

Benedict Cumberbatch: I am in no way playing Khan.

The fact that this article dropped right after the episode aired makes me even more suspicious. It would have been better if Kit kept silent on the whole matter.

DavidSeven
06-15-2015, 06:06 PM
Why do you say they have creative freedom? They are still following Martin's storyline (in broad strokes anyway). The series and book will arrive at the same basic outcome.

As for Cersei's scene, it's one time I felt the show did NOT trivialize the brutality it was showing. Unlike Myrcella's death which is just distasteful as can be (hey look, another female tortured/killed for a man to react!), I think the ugliness of King's Landing and the black heart of this culture were laid pretty bare in that Cersei moment. She's evil, but it is quite clear that this world is actually more evil. Also thought Headey did wonderful in that scene. Just wish it could have ended when she walked through the door, not with the Frankenstein's monster moment.

To be honest, I'm not as familiar with the production background as others. I knew Martin had an ending in mind, but I figured the showrunners would have more latitude in creating scenes and storylines as long as they got to that same point.

I didn't necessarily find the Cersei scene totally problematic (like I did with the Myrcella death and Sansa assault), except that it went on for too long and the practical absurdity of her body being unaffected after weeks (?) of starvation. However, when viewed in a vacuum, I still think it sort of functions as an unintended visual representation of the larger critiques of this season.

number8
06-15-2015, 06:19 PM
The Cersei scene is one of those scenes that, the longer it went on, the more compelling it became for me. When it began, I started laughing because I was thinking of the shaming scene in What We Do in the Shadows, and then I rolled my eyes because of the prolonged attention on her humiliation, but the scene just would not stop, long enough for me to reconsider its purpose and realize that the point of the scene isn't Cersei's shame and her suffering a low point, but an opportunity to show her intense endurance. In hindsight, I think it's necessary to allow that to come across, because what was previously presented in the episode was her yielding (partly) to her torture. It allows a villainous character to end the season on a completely in-character survivalist note, rather than one that's read as a sadistic "Cersei finally gets hers" fanservice.

And I thought Headey was so good that she didn't let the computer-generated nudity pull the focus away from her performance.

Dukefrukem
06-15-2015, 06:31 PM
I was expecting her to say something at the end of it like: "Kill them all".

[ETM]
06-15-2015, 07:34 PM
I don't think I'll have time to hate-watch the next season. Everything was so bloody... stupid. All of it. I guess I'm done with being made miserable by Martin, because it's just going nowhere right now.

Ezee E
06-15-2015, 11:46 PM
Two things:
1)In the book world, is there any spell or something that Stannis is a part of that could prevent him from being killed by a sword? After coming through the battle, mostly unscathed (a massacre of the Baratheon army really), why would the army leave him alive anyway, and return to their base? Something's going on there. I think he lives.

2)Cersei's scene was pretty epic, for reasons number8 had already mentioned. The show was speeding through many other scenes to finish them, but let it rest on this scene. The use of sound, focus on Cersei's face, and the approaching castle were all well done. Like duke mentions, you basically expect a, "Kill them all," message at the end... But it's not needed. She knows that as long as she gets into that castle, she'll be safe, and will do exactly what she said she would do in the prison. I'd say this is the story that now intrigues me the most going into next season.

Grouchy
06-16-2015, 03:18 AM
Ah, the "don't hurt girls" backlash. I knew it was coming eventually.

Ezee E
06-16-2015, 05:49 AM
Ah, the "don't hurt girls" backlash. I knew it was coming eventually.

This post is a few weeks late.

[ETM]
06-16-2015, 09:01 PM
Unsurprisingly(?), Jon Snow memorial set up in Brooklyn. (http://flavorwire.com/newswire/street-memorial-erected-in-brooklyn-for-fictional-tv-character-really)
https://flavorwire.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/chorq_kwoaa3ubw.png

Spinal
06-16-2015, 10:11 PM
"The hero, instead of conquering or conciliating the power of the threshold, is swallowed into the unknown and would appear to have died. This popular motif gives emphasis to the lesson that the passage of the threshold is a form of self-annihilation. Instead of passing outward, beyond the confines of the visible world, the hero goes inward, to be born again."

Joseph Campbell

Dukefrukem
06-16-2015, 10:31 PM
;541932']Unsurprisingly(?), Jon Snow memorial set up in Brooklyn. (http://flavorwire.com/newswire/street-memorial-erected-in-brooklyn-for-fictional-tv-character-really)
https://flavorwire.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/chorq_kwoaa3ubw.png

Did 8 do this?

Spinal
06-16-2015, 10:37 PM
1)In the book world, is there any spell or something that Stannis is a part of that could prevent him from being killed by a sword? After coming through the battle, mostly unscathed (a massacre of the Baratheon army really), why would the army leave him alive anyway, and return to their base? Something's going on there. I think he lives.

Well, Melisandre is able to 'glamour' someone so that they appear to others as a completely different person. I doubt that's what's going on here though.

D_Davis
06-16-2015, 11:05 PM
Never trust a politician.


Better.

Spinal
06-16-2015, 11:10 PM
;541932']Unsurprisingly(?), Jon Snow memorial set up in Brooklyn. (http://flavorwire.com/newswire/street-memorial-erected-in-brooklyn-for-fictional-tv-character-really)
https://flavorwire.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/chorq_kwoaa3ubw.png

What are they doing quoting the Ironborn? That's offensive.

Ezee E
06-17-2015, 12:22 AM
Well, Melisandre is able to 'glamour' someone so that they appear to others as a completely different person. I doubt that's what's going on here though.

Agreed. I guess they could invent a spell for the show. The whole setup just seems weird. How does Stannis start in front of his entire army in the open, and end up in the far back, in the forest? Never any sight of actual blood on him, just strong fatigue...

Morris Schæffer
06-18-2015, 08:54 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9q1CXdqtXM

At 2:46, that's not Kevin McKidd? Ahhh you gotta be fucking kidding me!! I've been saying to my brother "short controlled bursts" everytime Tormund's on screen in reference to McKidd's character in Dog Soldiers. What a dumbass I am.

Anyway, great season again, just a little relentless and cheap in the way some characters are dispensed with. It's always been a bleak show, but perhaps those final moments were a little uncalled for.

Morris Schæffer
06-18-2015, 09:01 PM
The last scene, however it turns out, strikes me as another example of the shooting for Twitter outrage as a marker for success. It's like, we get it, Red Wedding was a cool thing for us all to experience as a culture. But they are straining so hard to replicate that moment through child-burnings, sexual assaults, and big-hero-kills that I'm becoming numb to it all. Red Wedding was masterful because it felt like they knew exactly what they were doing. Do we still have that same confidence in this creative unit?

Not numbed by it yet, but I'm feeling some of this too this season especially when they burned Stannis's daughter at the stake.

I thought "huh where the fuck did that come from?"

Morris Schæffer
06-18-2015, 09:03 PM
The Cersei scene is one of those scenes that, the longer it went on, the more compelling it became for me. When it began, I started laughing because I was thinking of the shaming scene in What We Do in the Shadows, and then I rolled my eyes because of the prolonged attention on her humiliation, but the scene just would not stop, long enough for me to reconsider its purpose and realize that the point of the scene isn't Cersei's shame and her suffering a low point, but an opportunity to show her intense endurance. In hindsight, I think it's necessary to allow that to come across, because what was previously presented in the episode was her yielding (partly) to her torture. It allows a villainous character to end the season on a completely in-character survivalist note, rather than one that's read as a sadistic "Cersei finally gets hers" fanservice.

And I thought Headey was so good that she didn't let the computer-generated nudity pull the focus away from her performance.

Yes! Yes!! Yes!! Except I wasn't aware of CGI shenanigans and thought Heady has fine knockers.

Ezee E
06-18-2015, 10:03 PM
Didn't know it was CGI'd. I didn't know Lena was pregnant either.

Morris Schæffer
06-19-2015, 05:41 AM
It's just plain devious that the "previously on game of thrones" for the last episode oh so briefly mentions Jon Snow's Uncle Benjen as if it's gonna be a huge plot point in it.. ;)

Morris Schæffer
09-08-2015, 05:16 PM
Richard E. Grant joins s6.

Grouchy
09-09-2015, 12:39 AM
That's so awesome. Cast-wise this show is unbeatable.

Spinal
03-31-2016, 05:07 PM
Watching these on DVD. Just got to the Sansa scene where everyone lost their shit last year. While I think there was a massive overreaction to that development, I'm more bothered by the earlier scene in which Daenerys gives a random Meereen leader to her dragons to be burned alive and eaten. That seemed to me inconsistent with her character and her sense of justice. I get that she is tough and violent when she needs to be, but why that guy? It just seemed too arbitrary.

Spinal
04-06-2016, 04:06 PM
Thoughts on finishing the 5th season:

* Stephen Dillane is the unsung hero of this cast. Stannis could easily be an utter bore of a character, as he is often defined by his stoicism. Dillane fills him with a fascinating inner struggle that can be read in the eyes and perceived only in the subtlest of inflections. If anyone should receive an acting award from this season, it's him. The Stannis storyline alone is classic tragedy on a Shakespearean scale. Here is a man who has always assumed that he is the protagonist of this story. How fascinating it is to watch it dawn on him that fate will treat him differently. Just a masterful performance with support from two of the best in Liam Cunningham and Carice von Houten.

* Those who were slamming the modified direction of Sansa's character arc had it dead wrong. The development has allowed Sansa to demonstrate more strength and agency, not less. Sansa has been bloodied and is an active participant now, not a passive one. Sophie Turner is rising to the challenge and showing depths that have been previously untapped.

* For a show with frequent graphic violence, Arya's assassination of Ser Meryn Trant remains a shocker. It would have been hard to imagine even 20 years ago that such brutality would be a part of the most popular show on television. But here we are. Where is Arya heading? I have a guess. We'll see in time.

* Cersei is such an unrelentingly despicable character in the books. It's interesting to see the show tilt it slightly and make it harder for us to enjoy her degradation.

* Dorne seems to have suffered most from the transition from page to screen. Although it is amusing that the show dared to deliver a heartfelt scene in which a girl's father confesses that she is the product of incest.

* The last three episodes were are crazy good, but Hardhome was the one that finally convinced me to get HBO Now, so that I won't be waiting a year to participate in conversation about Season 6.

Spinal
04-06-2016, 04:24 PM
Not numbed by it yet, but I'm feeling some of this too this season especially when they burned Stannis's daughter at the stake.

I thought "huh where the fuck did that come from?"

They've been setting it up for multiple seasons now. If you think back, you realize it's the character's sole reason for existing.

Ezee E
04-07-2016, 12:45 AM
Funny, any actor that is asked who they want to do scenes with in Game of Thrones, and they almost all answer Dilate or Cunningham.