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TGM
04-04-2014, 05:48 AM
CAPTAIN AMERICA: THE WINTER SOLDIER

Directors: Anthony Russo, Joe Russo

imdb (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1843866/?ref_=nv_sr_1)

http://www.entertainmentwallpaper.com/images/res1920x1080/movie/captain-america-the-winter-soldier01.jpg

TGM
04-04-2014, 05:50 AM
This movie has its moments, a few nice lines of dialogue here and there, but for the most part, it's little more than a dull, boring, uninspired shoot-em-up. The action scenes were a chore to sit through, shot in such close quarters and with so many quick cuts that it bordered real close to that nauseating shakey-cam-ish line. But where the last couple Marvel movies were filled with moments of sheer creativity, particularly in their action sequences, there was nothing of the sort to be found here, sadly, and I sat through all these action scenes just waiting, dying for something more than just more shoot shoot, bang bang to happen. Blah.

It's not terrible, though, certainly not Iron Man 2 bad at least. But yeah, it's definitely a weaker entry in these Marvel movies, and tonally is probably the least Marvel-feeling movie of the whole bunch so far. I did like the musical cues for The Winter Soldier himself, however. In fact, that was probably the best aspect of the whole entire movie for me. But as a whole, this one was a disappointment.

Also, only about 10 people actually stayed for the after credits sequence, which kinda just boggles my mind at this point. Do people really still not know to stay, or have they just quit caring?

number8
04-04-2014, 07:17 AM
Best action scenes and narrative pacing since The Avengers. I almost liked it as much as Iron Man 3.

Watashi
04-04-2014, 10:06 AM
Goddamn. The action in this film was amazing.

Dukefrukem
04-04-2014, 11:20 AM
Got IMAX tickets for this tonight.

Somehow I was able to see through just how much of a snooze fest Thor 2 was and completely ignored it when it was in theaters.

This movie seems more inline with fun.

number8
04-04-2014, 01:12 PM
Bullet points:

- Steve's the only good guy white dude in the movie. His allies are 2 black guys and 3 women. :)

- The implication of this movie on the rest of the Marvel movies is immense. It retroactively affects Iron Man 2's plot, and reveals that HYDRA killed Stark's dad? I wonder if we'll see Tony reacting to that in Avengers 2. Also, Baron Strucker's involvement in Avengers 2 makes more sense now. I was wondering how he's going to fit in an Ultron story. Widow's throwaway line at the Apple store about "some kind of AI" rewriting itself is going to come into play, I think.

- Chris Evans carried this movie really well. Also, goddamn, never looked hotter. "Specimen."

- Overall, a pretty good representation of the Captain America character. He has no problems adjusting to technology, pop culture, and daily interactions, but his heart is nonetheless still stuck in the 1940s. He's not naive, but he doesn't give up on people, and when he makes a speech, you listen.

- Kinda weird that he's seen WarGames but not Star Wars.

- What makes the action scenes so good is how you feel the weight behind everything. They don't just trade blows, they keep hurling each other back and slamming into things, making a dent. When Steve gets thrown off the bridge by a missile and falls into a bus, it's not just the usual one shot of a CG body crashing into the bus, there's actually a feel of his whole weight smashing down on pedestrians. The Russos' comedy background lends real well into the action scenes. They get timing.

- I know everyone must be tired of beating the Man of Steel dead horse, but in this movie, a supposedly ruthless assassin with no superpowers gets shot while trying to evacuate citizens from the combat area. Because that is what heroes do.

- Making Falcon a VA worker works incredibly well. I love how the movie never says it outright, but it's clear that they work well together because he's acting like Cap's sponsor.

- What was the better geekout moment, the Dr. Strange namedrop or the Pulp Fiction headstone?

- I'm pretty sure Pierce's death is a shout out to the Parallax View. Awesome.

- Winter Soldier kinda get shortchanged here, so I'm glad to know that the story's being continued. Weird that the movie is subtitled after him, but then I realized that it's similar to what Iron Man 3 did: make you focus on one villain when actually the story's bigger than that.

- I smiled so wide at the shout-out to how Bucky died in the comics, that shot of Cap falling into water as Bucky, one arm stuck, explodes on a ship above him. It has always been a beautifully tragic image, and I was very disappointed at its omission in the first movie. Great way to rectify it.

- With all the groundwork they're laying for Crossbones, Agent 13, and Bucky, I am about 80% convinced now that the third movie is going to be based on the death of Cap.

- lol what is Agents of SHIELD gonna do? I giggled that Black Widow just releases all of SHIELD's secrets on the internet, which is like a major plot point on the show that they went back and forth on. Talk about insignificant.

Fezzik
04-04-2014, 02:41 PM
This might be my favorite of the Marvel Bunch. They have become so confident in what they have that they don't step lightly around any of their elements.

The Russos did some amazing work here. I thought the hand to hand action scenes were pretty amazingly choreographed, and I love how Steve really does seem like an old-school best generation Patriot trapped in the body of a dudebro gym rat.

With every outing, Evans shows his ability to carry a film more and more, though he did have a lot of help here. Johansson was used very well, as was Mackie. Redford was just a great addition to this thing. I loved the hell out of it.

And 8...a couple of thoughts about your bullet points:

"Kinda weird that he's seen WarGames but not Star Wars."

I think he HAS seen Star Wars - it looks like it was crossed off his list at the beginning of the film. Additionally, I saw a lot of parallels with Cap/Bucky and Luke/Vader. "I wont fight you" to begin with, as well as that great shot of Bucky repeatedly punching Cap in the face as he lie on the walkway of the helicarrier. It was very reminicent of the scene in Jedi where Luke is wailing on Vader's limp, useless saber-wielding hand on a very similar catwalk.

"What was the better geekout moment, the Dr. Strange namedrop or the Pulp Fiction headstone?"

In my theater, definitely the Dr Strange name drop. The headstone got a clap and a laugh, but hearing Strange being mentioned just caused the entire theater to collectively GASP.


"I smiled so wide at the shout-out to how Bucky died in the comics, that shot of Cap falling into water as Bucky, one arm stuck, explodes on a ship above him. It has always been a beautifully tragic image, and I was very disappointed at its omission in the first movie. Great way to rectify it."

THANK YOU for pointing this out. I was wondering why that shot seemed so familiar. You nailed it. Such a beautiful moment.

Morris Schæffer
04-04-2014, 05:09 PM
Echoing what everyone else here said about the action scenes. They're great. Sorry TGM, it's a frenetic movie allright, but lo and behold the framing is tight, powerful, visceral, but nearly always coherent. These Russo chaps, i was way wrong about them, but they did make me, you and dupree so not my fault. Perhaps you were letdown by some of the action as so much is footed in reality. Chases and shootouts feel more like Michael Mann than what a comicbook flick should serve up, but that's what I loved about that first huge chase scene. Henry Jackman's score, rather than going for big heroic cues, serves up the sinister motif at the beginning of it. That said, i was somewhat reminded about Ebert's paragraph in his review for the league of extraord. Gentlemen in that the villains seem to shoot a lot, but hit very little, if anything at all. Bad guys never fire at the captains feet or legs, but always his shield and these are dudes who probably know the target they're chasing. Great Fx by ILM. Even when the movie goes huuuuge, every explosion, crash and collision registers. A bit letdown by the villains ultimate plan which, once more, comes down to kill millions to wipe the slate clean and start over which admittedly carries over from Hydra's plans but which felt like more of an excuse to end big and oooh climactic rather than inspired.

Sxottlan
04-04-2014, 08:46 PM
So so good. The best thing I've seen so far this year.

And brutal. I actually gasped at that wide shot of a room full of SHIELD agents opening fire on each other.

number8
04-04-2014, 09:02 PM
I love the shit out of that scene. Captain America inspiring some helpless techie to willingly get shot in the head, Sharon Carter standing up for him. A lot of moments in the film gave me an idealism boner, and that's exactly how I want a Captain America story to be.

Sxottlan
04-05-2014, 12:48 AM
I love the shit out of that scene. Captain America inspiring some helpless techie to willingly get shot in the head...

Agreed. I liked how everyone was suddenly looking to this nameless tech to decide whether they're all going to go along with this or not.

Skitch
04-05-2014, 01:42 AM
I've been reading Vol 4 of Essential Cap...combined with the posts in this thread...I'm fucking drooling to see this flick.

number8
04-05-2014, 02:50 AM
I thought this was a goof at first. Zola said that Black Widow was born in 1984, which means that she was 7 years old when the KGB disbanded. So how can she be an ex-KGB agent? Then I realized that in The Avengers she did tell Banner that she started as an agent when she was a little kid. The continuity is pretty impressive.

Dukefrukem
04-05-2014, 04:57 AM
Great. I dont know which I like better, IM3 or this. The choreography is incredible with the hand to hand fighting; just superb. I loved the opening stealth mission on the boat.

Scarlett Johansson had voice fry throughout the entire movie; so distracting.

Did anyone catch Cap's full to do list?


I love Lucky
Moon Landing
Berlin Wall (Up and Down)
Steve Jobs
Pisco
Thai Food
Star Wars & Trek
Nirvana
Rocky (Rocky II?)
Troubleman

Morris Schæffer
04-05-2014, 08:06 AM
What was fury's role again in the hijacking of the ship'. They keep referring to it. The opening boat mission was good, but i must be missing a link to what transpires after so to me it felt a little like a solid james bond pre-credits sequence and not as exciting as all the rest.

Sxottlan
04-05-2014, 11:04 AM
What was fury's role again in the hijacking of the ship'. They keep referring to it. The opening boat mission was good, but i must be missing a link to what transpires after so to me it felt a little like a solid james bond pre-credits sequence and not as exciting as all the rest.

Fury really did hire the pirates to hijack the ship. I thought it was a lie by Pierce until Romanoff offhandedly confirmed it to Rogers at the hospital. Fury knew the personnel wouldn't be in any serious danger with Rogers rescuing them while Romanoff went after the program about the satellite targeting program.

Morris Schæffer
04-06-2014, 06:29 AM
Fury really did hire the pirates to hijack the ship. I thought it was a lie by Pierce until Romanoff offhandedly confirmed it to Rogers at the hospital. Fury knew the personnel wouldn't be in any serious danger with Rogers rescuing them while Romanoff went after the program about the satellite targeting program.

But then it stands to reason Fury told the pirates to go easy on the personnel also I suppose because it's kinda a stretch to believe Fury would believe that the Captain would be infallible.

number8
04-06-2014, 05:00 PM
$96 million opening. Broke April box office record.

Pop Trash
04-08-2014, 06:05 AM
Maybe I'm just too old for this shit, but I was pretty bored by the time the second half ticked down. Also, must all these movies be over two hours now?

I did like all the Illuminati/They Live style paranoia with the true SHIELD peeps getting all WikiLeaks on dat HYDRA azz.

Rowland
04-09-2014, 06:50 AM
Did anyone else find Black Widow's monologue during the car ride to the base ("Who do you want me to be?") consistent with the thematic content of Johansson's recent projects (Her, Under the Skin, Don Jon)?

number8
04-09-2014, 03:42 PM
So they spoiled the Hydra infiltration and Fury dying thing on Agents of SHIELD last night. Color me really surprised. Seems like a bold move to assume everyone saw the movie opening weekend.

Sven
04-09-2014, 08:34 PM
So they spoiled the Hydra infiltration and Fury dying thing on Agents of SHIELD last night. Color me really surprised. Seems like a bold move to assume everyone saw the movie opening weekend.

I think what they were actually assuming is that nobody watching would believe Fury's death in the first place. Cuz why would you?

Kurosawa Fan
04-09-2014, 09:08 PM
I think what they were actually assuming is that nobody watching would believe Fury's death in the first place. Cuz why would you?

Exactly. Just one of many reasons this film wasn't very good.

number8
04-09-2014, 09:26 PM
What's spoiled wasn't the fact that he's alive, but that he was attacked and "died." Regardless of whether or not you think his death was going to stick (which is a moot point in superhero stories so I don't see why that should affect the quality of the story one way or another), it's a pretty major plot point in the movie that the show casually revealed.

Watashi
04-09-2014, 09:32 PM
Yeah, no one ever "dies" in a superhero film/comic book. It's hard to fault the film for staying true to its roots.

Qrazy
04-09-2014, 09:33 PM
Agents of SHIELD is clearly a post-narrative show. Everything that can or will ever happen in the Marvel universe has already happened and thus nothing can be spoiled.

Sven
04-09-2014, 10:53 PM
Yeah, no one ever "dies" in a superhero film/comic book. It's hard to fault the film for staying true to its roots.

I would like to point out that I wasn't faulting the film for Fury's resurrection.

Sven
04-09-2014, 10:57 PM
...(which is a moot point in superhero stories so I don't see why that should affect the quality of the story one way or another)...

...but I do think this line of logic is bunk, and I would think you agree. Resurrection, that's fine. But it's the context of the resurrection that matters, that gives the narrative and its points any weight or consequence.

Also, I do think the film was trying to make me think he died, and its gestures were transparent in that regard. Which IS poor filmmaking.

Pop Trash
04-10-2014, 03:50 AM
What is this dumb rule? I mean, I get it with Superman or whoever but Marvel can survive w/ Nick Fury in the great comic dustbin in the sky.

Sven
04-10-2014, 04:16 AM
What is this dumb rule? I mean, I get it with Superman or whoever but Marvel can survive w/ Nick Fury in the great comic dustbin in the sky.

But will the franchise, at this point, do away with Jackson? No way.

Morris Schæffer
04-10-2014, 05:26 AM
All i know is that when he "died" i thought maybe it was all staged for a brief moment, and by the time he turned up not dead, I was surprised to see him alive.

Dukefrukem
04-10-2014, 11:51 AM
I was surprised they were going through all the effort to pretend he was dead.

I also remembered the scene where Fury shows the audience his left eye in the shower this morning; that was cool.

number8
04-10-2014, 03:36 PM
...but I do think this line of logic is bunk, and I would think you agree. Resurrection, that's fine. But it's the context of the resurrection that matters, that gives the narrative and its points any weight or consequence.

Also, I do think the film was trying to make me think he died, and its gestures were transparent in that regard. Which IS poor filmmaking.

Yeah, I was glossing over that point. What I meant to say is that in superhero stories, especially ongoing ones such as Marvel and DC, the death and/or resurrection of a major character is so mundane that by itself it is a rather weightless event. What matters is the story that the death serves as a catalyst for.

Paul Cornell said, in reference to Peter Parker's recent resurrection, "These are stories, not fact from an unreal world." And I find that a very succinct saying. When you just read, "Peter Parker died a couple of years ago, and now he's back," it's completely meaningless and reductive. It says nothing about what the story actually is. Saying "Oh he's dead? Don't worry he will be back someday" is obviously correct, but it's ignoring the fact that that's obviously not the only thing in the story they're trying to tell.

So yeah, I agree that the context matters, which is why I don't have an issue with this use in the movie. Saying "they make you think Nick Fury's dead, but then it turns out he's still alive" and whether or not I bought it is completely meaningless to me. What's important is that everyone in the story believed it, they acted accordingly, and we follow them on that branch. Fury's fake death had huge ramifications in the movie (and apparently the TV snow now) and the story would not have gone down the way it did without it. If it was done simply as an emotional punch, I'd agree with you about it being grossly manipulative. But it wasn't. It was a legitimate plot point in a spy thriller.

Wryan
04-11-2014, 09:03 PM
I had a lot of fun with this. Some of the action was a bit hard to follow though. Mackie is so welcome here.

The big bad plan seems ridiculous to me. Three helicarriers positioned mostly above D.C. are gonna snipe a million people at once even if they are hundreds of miles away at the perimeter? How? Even if they are closer than that, and even with superspy satellites helping, I was hard-pressed to buy this. Overall, though, I enjoyed this.

Can someone spoil the second credits sequence for me? I only stayed to watch the first. Please and thank you.

Lazlo
04-11-2014, 09:09 PM
Can someone spoil the second credits sequence for me? I only stayed to watch the first. Please and thank you.

Camera drifts through the Smithsonian Captain America exhibit, up to the Bucky display. A man walks up to the display, we track up his legs, torso, to reveal: Bucky, examining the display.

Wryan
04-11-2014, 09:46 PM
Camera drifts through the Smithsonian Captain America exhibit, up to the Bucky display. A man walks up to the display, we track up his legs, torso, to reveal: Bucky, examining the display.

Thanks! Looks like I didn't miss much. The second is usually pretty short.

Lazlo
04-11-2014, 11:10 PM
Thanks! Looks like I didn't miss much. The second is usually pretty short.

Yeah, for the past couple the first one is the one that most pertains to the next movies.

number8
04-12-2014, 12:24 AM
That's exactly why they started doing two. The after credits started becoming a more important tease for the next movie, so they put it up earlier for people.

Dukefrukem
04-12-2014, 01:32 PM
UK
http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--c1jPhNMt--/c_fit,fl_progressive,w_636/rvh6kinxqdwtkikbaaoq.jpg

RUSSIA
http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--JZfkkLIs--/c_fit,fl_progressive,w_636/y1dsp18q7cls7hx59juy.png

FRANCE
http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--OtsOoRte--/c_fit,fl_progressive,w_636/lvwugdoe03stysikuecu.jpg


SOUTH KOREA
http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--AcY9N2k1--/c_fit,fl_progressive,w_636/qlpsfqadvf38jh42ab0w.png

ITALY
http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--iWSdmi_G--/c_fit,fl_progressive,w_636/qt9tdlrozppbymipkjjj.jpg

MEXICO
http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--U1xj74M0--/c_fit,fl_progressive,w_636/tvqbufdi3uhvuowdtrlk.jpg

Winston*
04-12-2014, 10:53 PM
Enjoyed this a bunch. Definitely the best after The Avengers and Iron Man 3. "Hail Hydra"

I wish they'd stop with the Stan Lee's cameos in these things, though. After reading enough about what an unsavoury character he is, they just make me cringe.

Sven
04-13-2014, 02:07 AM
Enjoyed this a bunch. Definitely the best after The Avengers and Iron Man 3. "Hail Hydra"

Et tu, W*?

Henry Gale
04-13-2014, 02:48 AM
Finally saw this, probably the longest it's taken me to see a Marvel Studios joint yet, which resulted in things like this week's Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. episode casually spoiling major aspects of this (namely, Hydra's complete takeover, Fury's targeting and subsequent word spreading of his death) for me, but anyway:

I thought this was really good with a little too much time mucking around with chronically cliché plot devices and other disappointingly pedestrian scripting ticks (which became significantly less noticable when it was at least fuelling startlingly well-designed action setpieces). But luckily the key nuts and bolts of its storytelling and overarching thematic elements are more prominent strengths that pop up with more frequency and worthy memorability in retrospect than the issues I had with a lot of stuff in the moment that now escape me.

Spoilery bullet points:

- Maaan, the Peggy scene was perfectly lovely and then oh god the tail end of it sucker punched me in the gut and all I could do was respect it (while also attempting to covertly wipe some sort of mysterious condensation trickling from my eyes-- WHO SAID I CRIED).

- Garry Shandling whispering "Hail Hydra!" really forced me take a step back and realize how far we've come.

- This seems like the first time I actually felt and understood just how strong Cap is and what the extent of his abilities are. Most of the first movie is either spent showing him in montage, throwing his shield around and battling people/expermiments with comparable strengths, and a lot of Avengers just had him doing the same, but with more shot-calling and kicking. Which leads me to the next point...

- I don't know if it was just the way the Russos conceived it, shot it, or how they used the vivid, pulsating sound design, but this felt like one of the more violent movies to cross promote itself with Yogen Fruz sundaes I've ever seen. (Or come from Disney, become something that spawns kids' toys and Halloween costumes, even to have a PG-13 rating, etc.)

- Did they ever explain or talk about Falcon's suit before he suddenly got it because Steve approved him as a best friend. It just felt like the movie established he was trustworthy so he's automatically a flying superhero. I really liked the character otherwise, but the only background on him I recall was about his re-adjustment to everyday life and how he now prefers sleeping on rocks to marshmallowy beds.

Too bad Marvel Studios doesn't have Fantastic 4 rights, because how cute could it have been down the line for Thing and Falcon captured or caught in a jam overnight, and Falc tossing and turning in his sleep, slowly slipping towards snuggling up to ol' Ben Grimm as a fun callback to this movie! Then you know one of them's gotta wake up and ruh roh! This is why I will never be let near the creative process of a Marvel movie.

- Both times (Fury and then later Hill, Cap, Natasha and Falcon) escaped from oncoming firepower by drilling magic sewers to escape, all I could think of was that Secret Tunnels girl in Nacho Libre, and that she must've developed that technology for SHIELD. And what did the bad guys think? "Ah fuck they made a hole in the ground! No way are we chasing after them down there!" ??

- My audience seemed way too genuinely surprised about when the Winter Soldier revealed as Bucky to Steve. Like actual gasps and turning to the other person saying, "Bucky?!" a second before Cap did. First of all, I'm shocked the average audience member even remembers him, especially enough to care that much. Second, I'm actually weirdly jealous and mystified by how they managed to remain completely unaware that's who the character is.

I mean, I literally just typed "Winter Solider" into Google and the first result is a Wikipedia article for Bucky.

So yeah, pretty great in spurts, just not quite as sturdy as I may have liked. Luckily it's hardly ever not kinetically engrossing, and considerably smarter and weightier with its bigger ideas and character development than even some of my other favourites in the MCU.

Considering the improvement from the first one to this, and the groundwork this one lays for the future, I can only imagine the potential for the next, and it all leaves me pretty excited.

***1/2 / 7.9

number8
04-13-2014, 08:15 PM
FYI the Agents of Shield ep that spoiled you hinted that Fitz created that hole burner thing they used. I thought that was kind of neat.

Henry Gale
04-13-2014, 09:03 PM
FYI the Agents of Shield ep that spoiled you hinted that Fitz created that hole burner thing they used. I thought that was kind of neat.

Oh ok, I didn't see much of the episode since I opted out once I realized what was going on, but that's one nice piece of continuity at least. Still doesn't really explain why no one attacking them would attempt to follow them into the holes.

megladon8
04-15-2014, 12:01 AM
So, this was phenomenal. Sure it won't make converts of anyone who isn't into Marvel's thing already, but then those folks should by now know what to expect.

Seriously some of the best hand-to-hand action sequences I've seen since the Bourne flicks. Top notch, gut-flinching stuff. Brutal and wonderfully choreographed. Cap feels like a total badass fighter for the first time in the Marvel cinematic universe.

Very few real misgivings. Kind of felt like the Winter Soldier himself was a little underutilized, and speaking of underutilized, more Falcon please! Also felt a bit iffy on the way they hinted at Fury's paranoia being somewhat racially charged.

But man, what a fun ride.

Echoing just about everyone else in saying it's one of the best (perhaps the best) of the Marvel output so far.

slqrick
04-15-2014, 02:34 AM
I think Winter Soldier felt underdeveloped because they went out and focused all the advertising prior to the movie on him, which was smart. I'd imagine the third movie will delve more into his character, although I agree that I wish he had a damn line or two.

Dukefrukem
04-16-2014, 09:41 PM
Super side note: This doesn't pass the Bechdel test.

Winston*
04-16-2014, 10:56 PM
Super side note: This doesn't pass the Bechdel test.

Do any of the Marvel movies?

Henry Gale
04-16-2014, 10:57 PM
Super side note: This doesn't pass the Bechdel test.

It does however pass the "Hero ends countdown within the final second of a cataclysmic countdown clock" test! So yeah, not sure how innovative its basic mechanics really are in general, but it works for what it is.

At least it's saying something that I know without checking that Iron Man 3 and The Dark World would pass the Bechdel.

Dukefrukem
04-17-2014, 12:35 PM
Do any of the Marvel movies?

Off the topic of my head, IM3 does.

number8
04-17-2014, 03:27 PM
It's debatable. There's a scene where Maria Hill, Natasha and Steve are all talking about Fury's ballistics reports, but they were more both talking to Steve at the same time than at each other.

When it comes to stuff like the bechdel test, though, since it's not about how strong the female characters are and more about having enough quantity represented that they would talk to each other, I'm usually more inclined to round down. If you have to argue that they're technically in the same conversation and they're technically talking about bullets instead of Fury, then it's safer to say it doesn't pass.

Dukefrukem
04-17-2014, 03:33 PM
I agree. But to your point, the whole purpose of the test is to determine the strength of the female characters right? I think we can all agree that Maria and Natasha's presence on screen define strong female leaders. It's just a small quibble that I thought I'd bring up.

number8
04-17-2014, 03:51 PM
I literally just said in my previous post that that's not what it's for.

Dukefrukem
04-17-2014, 06:08 PM
Yup. I misread.

Winston*
04-17-2014, 07:54 PM
http://i.imgur.com/MVE8dxA.png

megladon8
04-17-2014, 11:59 PM
Did no one else feel a bit...weird...about Fury's semi-racially-charged paranoia?

I really felt it to be unnecessary.

Sven
04-18-2014, 12:36 AM
I think we should have a discussion about race.

megladon8
04-18-2014, 12:41 AM
I think we should have a discussion about race.


"When it comes to this race, no one wins."

Sven
04-18-2014, 12:59 AM
Personally, I think the movie should have been more racy.

Henry Gale
04-18-2014, 04:19 AM
Did no one else feel a bit...weird...about Fury's semi-racially-charged paranoia?

I really felt it to be unnecessary.

I've heard this brought up before, but I come up blank when trying to think of what it refers to.

Not sure how much I want to open up the general can of worms with it as a topic, but what aspect of the movie is this? It honestly eludes me.

megladon8
04-18-2014, 06:32 PM
I've heard this brought up before, but I come up blank when trying to think of what it refers to.

Not sure how much I want to open up the general can of worms with it as a topic, but what aspect of the movie is this? It honestly eludes me.


Well it began with Fury's speech about his grandfather being an elevator operator and then being harassed walking home, to the point where he needed to start carrying a gun.

Honestly I thought that was a great little moment, it echoed the themes of the film, and showed some insight into Fury's personal life. Left at that, would have been great.

The next was an admittedly small moment, but it soured it all.

Before the assault on Fury and his vehicle, he comes to a stop light and a cop car stops next to him. He looks over to see two white police officers eyeing him, and snidely says, "what, do you need to see my lease?"

This turned his motivations blatantly racial, and left a sour taste in my mouth.

number8
04-18-2014, 07:35 PM
I don't see the connection between those two scenes. He's a black man driving an expensive car and two white cops gave him a dirty look. It's a funny and truthful retort. America is like that.

Henry Gale
04-19-2014, 07:45 PM
Not to mention with that second exchange, I felt like Fury was already beginning to suspect that he was being ambushed, and just testing the waters with the cops to gauge just how many facets of authority might've been compromised and begin to come after him.

I can't remember if they stuck around or drove away after that, but it definitely came off as something already driven by his own suspicions, with the additional layer of confrontation of any unfortunate social context.

megladon8
04-19-2014, 09:08 PM
I don't see the connection between those two scenes. He's a black man driving an expensive car and two white cops gave him a dirty look. It's a funny and truthful retort. America is like that.


The scenes happened right after one another. I definitely felt a connection was intended.

number8
04-21-2014, 06:16 PM
http://37.media.tumblr.com/f5091279a1b315426efdcaea70a663 a0/tumblr_n45iq6sro61s9ny73o3_128 0.jpg

MadMan
06-10-2014, 06:27 AM
Whew that was fantastic. The action sequences were clear, easy to watch and exciting and the cast for this was pretty awesome. Especially Robert Redford, who was perfect for his role. I think its the first time he's ever played a villain, and he did a great job. I felt bad for laughing when he shot his housekeeper.

Although the ending was a little cheesy I still enjoyed seeing Falcon in action and I loved this film way more than I ever liked The Avengers. That could be because at this point out of the entire team I like Captain America the most. I would like to write a review covering how good the film was and then a short essay about its musings on our national security state, which were basic yes but still interesting.

Stay Puft
06-14-2014, 07:39 AM
I watched all of the Phase 2 Marvel movies a couple weeks ago and ehhhhhhh I probably shouldn't have. I mean, I actually didn't mind them, but watching them all in such close proximity just compounds the problem of how aggressively formulaic and same-y they all are. They all feature a major character death fake-out, which is bizarre to me. Like, how many times does Marvel think we're going to fall for that. Their writers need to get some damn new ideas.

But I'd say they're all better than the Phase 1 films, easily. I probably enjoyed Iron Man 3 the most because of Ben Kingsley and how they handled the Mandarin. That was awesome. Also fun to see Guy Pearce in a movie like this. I like Guy Pearce.

Thor was probably the worst but I did like the action scene at the end with all the portal jumping. This movie really needed less (or no) Loki, though, and some actual screen time devoted to the villain. Fan service really drags these things down for a viewer like me.

Captain America is somewhere in between, then, I guess. I liked a lot of the early setup. I liked Cap questioning his role in the world and his conversations with Falcon. There's some good character stuff there. But it goes out the window pretty fast with the Hydra storyline. I'm surprised that the action is being so positively received, too, because I thought a lot of it was terrible. The Falcon stuff is probably my favorite part of the movie, because the crazy special effects and flying virtual camera shenanigans was a nice break from the poor mess of the practical stuff. It's not nearly as bad as something like The Wolverine or Elysium but the cutting and framing comes from that same school of action shooting. That fight with Georges St-Pierre was terrible, too. They literally move back and forth in a straight line, exchanging a few hits and moves, with some tight framing and cutting and a repeated master shot interspersed. I think that's the first time I've ever seen an action scene in a movie that looks identical to a 2D fighting game. Lord that was boring.

Also, WTF @ that scene with Cap and Old Peggy. Just hire an old woman to play the role. How the fuck does anybody think that's a good idea. Good grief.

number8
06-14-2014, 06:08 PM
I think that's the first time I've ever seen an action scene in a movie that looks identical to a 2D fighting game

You've never seen a wuxia film?

megladon8
06-14-2014, 06:22 PM
The Cap and Old Peggy scene was great, and freaking heart-breaking.

Stay Puft
06-14-2014, 06:42 PM
You've never seen a wuxia film?

Haha point taken.

number8
06-19-2014, 06:01 PM
About the fake death thing, we discussed it earlier in the thread already, but I can see how watching the movies in succession would highlight that.

I didn't think about its overuse because when it happened in Iron Man 3, I did think it was weak, but all right, first time, I let it slide. It happened again in Thor 2, but that time I don't think they actually expected anyone to buy it, since it's Loki we're talking about. When it happened in this movie, I was just nodding my head in encouragement at the reveal because faking his death is pretty much Nick Fury's superpower. Hell, he literally just did it again in the newest issue of Marvel's current event that came out yesterday. So it was nice to see a nod to that in the movies.

If someone does it in Guardians, I'm gonna have a problem with it.

Henry Gale
06-19-2014, 07:06 PM
Yeah, it's not just this Marvel universe though. There's been Dark Knight's twist with Gordon, the way the later X-Men movies played fast and loose with Xavier's fate and regeneration, Coulson's reincarnation through Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., etc.

And to that last one in particular, Coulson's death is a major emotional turning point for everything in that movie and Fury's plea to bringing the team together, and now having re-watched it this year (post-Agents of SHIELD), it doesn't have nearly the same resonance as it did before. Sure, there was still a certain amount of deceit at play with Fury and the cards and his idea of them "needing a push", and maybe he already knew Coulson was fine at that point, but it does undeniably puncture it of a lot of the weight it had when I first saw it.

I don't have problems with the fake-outs within their own stories since they all operate differently, but after a while, it just feels like there are very few actual human (or even superhuman) stakes in the stories. It makes me wonder how people will feel when they start making some major changes in the status quo with certain demises in the near future, 'cause there's no going back with at least one in my mind.

[ETM]
08-01-2014, 04:15 PM
Thanks for that report from the Opposite World, Irish.

Skitch
08-01-2014, 08:30 PM
I forgot to mention I finally saw this. After I got passed some guy trying to sit in my lap in the back row, I really enjoyed the movie. In fact, I think this and Avengers are miles above any other Marvel movie so far.

TGM
08-01-2014, 08:40 PM
I <3 you, Irish.


After I got passed some guy trying to sit in my lap in the back row.

Wait, what?

Skitch
08-01-2014, 09:02 PM
Wait, what?

I was sitting in the one lone seat in the back row, with a wall to my back. A guy came in and stood beside my seat, and started waving his phone as a light to see if anyone was sitting there. I said "Hi." He didn't hear me apparently. He positioned himself in front of me, reached his hand down to the arm rest, and was about to sit in my lap when I loudly said "HELLO!!" He said "Sorry, its dark. I didn't see you."

It was really awkward. Every theater trip for me its some shenanigans like this. Its why I've seen about 3 movies in theater this year. I just wait to see em at home.

TGM
08-01-2014, 09:24 PM
Dang, closest thing to that that I had happen was when I saw a movie alone in an empty theater, then someone came in and, of all the open seats, decided to sit in the seat right next to me. It was just odd, and I even asked him if he HAD to sit there. But he said it was the best view of the screen, and he kept quiet and didn't act up or anything, so I was okay with it during the movie, but still, kinda just an odd occurrence.

Not sure how I'd react if he tried to sit on my lap, however. Yikes! o.O

Dukefrukem
08-01-2014, 09:32 PM
I was sitting in the one lone seat in the back row, with a wall to my back. A guy came in and stood beside my seat, and started waving his phone as a light to see if anyone was sitting there. I said "Hi." He didn't hear me apparently. He positioned himself in front of me, reached his hand down to the arm rest, and was about to sit in my lap when I loudly said "HELLO!!" He said "Sorry, its dark. I didn't see you."

It was really awkward. Every theater trip for me its some shenanigans like this. Its why I've seen about 3 movies in theater this year. I just wait to see em at home.

So weird and also why I don't go to the movies very often anymore.

Skitch
08-01-2014, 11:39 PM
Dang, closest thing to that that I had happen was when I saw a movie alone in an empty theater, then someone came in and, of all the open seats, decided to sit in the seat right next to me. It was just odd, and I even asked him if he HAD to sit there. But he said it was the best view of the screen, and he kept quiet and didn't act up or anything, so I was okay with it during the movie, but still, kinda just an odd occurrence.

Not sure how I'd react if he tried to sit on my lap, however. Yikes! o.O

Oh the people sitting one seat away in an empty theater happens to me all the time. Its so weird. I cannot understand it. I try to sit as far from people as possible.

Skitch
08-01-2014, 11:40 PM
I usually sit in the back row until 15 minutes into the movie (when the late comers, talkers, and eaters enter) so that I only have to move once instead of twice.

Qrazy
08-02-2014, 03:42 PM
Dang, closest thing to that that I had happen was when I saw a movie alone in an empty theater, then someone came in and, of all the open seats, decided to sit in the seat right next to me. It was just odd, and I even asked him if he HAD to sit there. But he said it was the best view of the screen, and he kept quiet and didn't act up or anything, so I was okay with it during the movie, but still, kinda just an odd occurrence.

Not sure how I'd react if he tried to sit on my lap, however. Yikes! o.O

Did he try to hold your hand?

TGM
08-02-2014, 03:56 PM
Nope.

Scar
08-03-2014, 04:48 AM
Sweet mother of God, I love this movie. Cap has become my favorite Marvel guy over the past few months.

bac0n
08-04-2014, 02:09 PM
I saw this movie last night finally, too. Loved it. I think my favorite part of the movie was the opening few scenes, particularly with him and Peggy. My only problem was...

How all three helicarriers were conveniently lined up so that they came down in the Potomac river when they crashed. How's that for luck?

number8
08-05-2014, 04:06 PM
About the fake death thing, we discussed it earlier in the thread already, but I can see how watching the movies in succession would highlight that.

I didn't think about its overuse because when it happened in Iron Man 3, I did think it was weak, but all right, first time, I let it slide. It happened again in Thor 2, but that time I don't think they actually expected anyone to buy it, since it's Loki we're talking about. When it happened in this movie, I was just nodding my head in encouragement at the reveal because faking his death is pretty much Nick Fury's superpower. Hell, he literally just did it again in the newest issue of Marvel's current event that came out yesterday. So it was nice to see a nod to that in the movies.

If someone does it in Guardians, I'm gonna have a problem with it.

So yeah.

Dukefrukem
08-05-2014, 05:48 PM
So yeah.

A pattern is emerging!

Watashi
08-05-2014, 05:51 PM
I don't really think Groot counts towards the pattern. It was never intended to be a "fakeout".

Dukefrukem
08-05-2014, 05:53 PM
I don't really think Groot counts towards the pattern. It was never intended to be a "fakeout".

Spoiler this, and yes it was with the dialog preceding it. Why have that dialog at all? Its the first movie in a franchise. No one would actually believe it anyway.

Dukefrukem
08-05-2014, 11:44 PM
8 they talk about the faking the death thing!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhbWIFDqQfk

Henry Gale
08-06-2014, 01:42 AM
Keeping with this theme, Entertainment Weekly's site also just posted an op-ed bluntly titled, "Marvel, please stop pretending to kill your heroes" (http://insidemovies.ew.com/2014/08/05/marvel-kill-heroes/)

So yeah, spoilers for every Marvel Studios movie to date, as well as Days of Future Past and Amazing Spider-Man 2.

Irish
08-06-2014, 02:14 AM
Wait wait wait. Forget all that stuff for a sec.

There's an actual program within the CIA named Hydra. (https://firstlook.org/theintercept/article/2014/08/05/watch-commander/)

:lol: What the fuck

Pop Trash
08-06-2014, 05:34 AM
- Redford was miscast. His persona is too soft at the edges to play that style of villain. The chemistry between him and Jackson was nil; their scenes felt like they had first met ten minutes before the cameras rolled. The plot mirrors the relationships between four main characters, but doesn't do anything with that at all, either. Why bother?


It's a total winking inverse of his roles in Three Days of the Condor and (to a lesser extent) All the President's Men. That's the main reason I dug it. It's nice when Hollywood movies acknowledge movies were made before 1980. I'm always surprised by the amount of people I meet these days (even filmmakers) who are barely versed in pre 80s cinema.

Irish
08-06-2014, 08:47 AM
It's a total winking inverse of his roles in Three Days of the Condor and (to a lesser extent) All the President's Men.

Yeah.. I dunno. I've seen that call out in a half dozen reviews, and I don't buy it. I mean, Three Days of the Condor? It's too clever by half. We could just as easily make a Redford connection to Sneakers, which presaged massive NSA surveillance. But nobody did that.

The character is supposed to be a combo Dick Cheney/ Robert McNamara / Erik Prince but Redford is wrong for that. His screen presence has no sharp edges at all. That's usually a benefit but here it's just an awkward fit because both he and Evans work in the same "nice guy" frequency.

Skitch
08-06-2014, 11:28 AM
Maybe this whole "fake dying" repeated aspect is a setup for a real death in Avengers 2.

Henry Gale
08-06-2014, 06:32 PM
Maybe this whole "fake dying" repeated aspect is a setup for a real death in Avengers 2.

That, and another very particular storyline they're building to with one of the other characters' movies.

number8
08-06-2014, 06:39 PM
That, and another very particular storyline they're building to with one of the other characters' movies.

I'm still not entirely convinced they're going that route. But we'll see.

number8
08-06-2014, 06:57 PM
Yeah.. I dunno. I've seen that call out in a half dozen reviews, and I don't buy it. I mean, Three Days of the Condor? It's too clever by half. We could just as easily make a Redford connection to Sneakers, which presaged massive NSA surveillance. But nobody did that.

I'm not really sure what you mean. The reason why everyone thought about Three Days of the Condor is because it doesn't really shy away from the parallels, like a big reveal about the hero's own boss being the bad guy, and being targeted by his own company. I think the events in Winter Soldier even takes place over 3 days.

Hell, both movies open with a french terrorist who turns out to have been hired by the US government!

That wasn't the plot of Sneakers.

Henry Gale
08-06-2014, 07:26 PM
I'm still not entirely convinced they're going that route. But we'll see.

Well, [Speculation, but kinda major if true, for those that would rather not know...]

Evans' contract from the get-go has been for six movies (and he has consistently said one that's done he's out), Stan is locked in for nine. Evans will have fulfilled all but one of those after Cap 3 (and there was already some debate as to whether or not his cameo in The Dark World counted, leading some to believe he could've left with Ultron, but he has said it wasn't a part of the six), whereas Stan will have only done a third of that. Not to mention the way they kept Grillo's character's alive, if disfigured, to easily become Crossbones, the rumoured title of the 2016 Cap movie is "The Fallen Son"... Voila?

Skitch
08-06-2014, 09:20 PM
I love Sneakers. Like, seriously love that movie.

Irish
08-06-2014, 11:39 PM
I'm not really sure what you mean. The reason why everyone thought about Three Days of the Condor is because it doesn't really shy away from the parallels, like a big reveal about the hero's own boss being the bad guy, and being targeted by his own company.

It's a bad descriptor because it doesn't tell us anything useful about either film, except that they're political thrillers (& Winter Soldier very loosely one, at that). So why not just say that?

The elements you mention are present in a whole bunch of other movies, like Seven Days in May, The Ipcress File, The Parallax View, The Star Chamber, The Firm, Sneakers, Clear and Present Danger, and The Bourne Identity.

Given the complete difference in plot, scope, story, tone, pacing, characters, etc, between the two, there isn't much linking Cap to Condor. Except for Robert Redford. Which is why the connection is too clever by half. It zeroes in on casting and isolated plot elements without saying anything substantive. You have to ignore 95% of what Condor actually is to connect it to Cap.


That wasn't the plot of Sneakers.

The movies, of course, are totally different but do contain some common elements. Broadly speaking: Both plots hinge on a data/tech heist. Both groups of heroes think they're working for a government agency when they're really not. The story turns on a frame up of one of the main characters, forcing the "good guys" into hiding. Both have talky villains who want to destroy the current "system" for political reasons, and build their version of a better world. Both involve a mix of politics with a sense of character driven, personal betrayal between two very old friends. Both address the idea of a surveillance state, and what happens when the private is made public. And hey, both have Robert Redford! :D

megladon8
08-07-2014, 03:23 PM
I'm thinking they're setting up Falcon to take over Cap's role when Rogers dies.

Irish
08-07-2014, 07:57 PM
I can guarantee you that neither of those things will ever happen.

Watashi
08-07-2014, 08:06 PM
Rogers definitely won't be carrying the shield after Cap 3. Whether it's through death or passing the torch.

Irish
08-07-2014, 08:15 PM
He's still on the hook for another picture after Cap 3.

You're assuming that Marvel won't simply retire the character from the movies.

Edit: Or swap in another actor as "Steve Rogers," a la Batman and Bond.

Dukefrukem
08-07-2014, 08:18 PM
He's still on the hook for another picture after Cap 3.


Yeh that's Avengers 3.

So Stark Dies in Avengers 2.

Cap dies in Avengers 3.

Irish
08-07-2014, 08:25 PM
Seriously, when did comic book fans get so bloodthirsty? :lol:

I dunno what the Ultron rumors are, but I'd be surprised if Stark died. Marvel makes feel good movies. Rom coms for nerds. Little kids go to these shows. They're not gonna do anything that'll make a 10 year old burst into tears in the middle of the theater.

They certainly won't do anything that'll make anyone, regardless of age, hesitate to buy an Iron Man action figure or tee shirt.

number8
08-07-2014, 08:29 PM
Uh oh, Irish is talking about merchandising again.

Dukefrukem
08-07-2014, 08:29 PM
I want to see a superhero die. It's about time we see it.

In fact, what I'd really like to see is Batman vs Apocalypse the Death of Superman. That would satisfy me for life.

Irish
08-07-2014, 08:29 PM
Hey! I put it in spoilers. Nobody is obligated to click on that! :lol:

Watashi
08-07-2014, 08:31 PM
Stark is not going to die.

However by the end of The Avengers 3 we will see a whole new Avengers team: Winter Soldier (as Cap maybe), Ant-Man, Dr. Strange, Mrs. Marvel, Black Panther, and maybe a new Thor/Iron Man.

This has been Feige's plan for a while.

Watashi
08-07-2014, 08:33 PM
Which is why I'm convinced Avengers 3 will be a two-parter with Thanos destroying the Avengers at the end of the part 1 which leads them to team up with the new Avengers (and the Guardians) to take him down. Then torches will be passed at the end.

Irish
08-07-2014, 08:35 PM
Feige has been squirrelly with his plans. That line up sounds cool, but it also seems like it'd require a Ms Marvel and Black Panther movie too.

(Is Avengers 3 scheduled? And is Ant-Man in the Avengers in the comics? I don't follow this stuff all that closely)

TGM
08-07-2014, 08:43 PM
Yup, and James Gunn is supposed to be directing Avengers 3.

And Ant-Man was one of the original Avengers, I do believe.

Skitch
08-07-2014, 10:35 PM
I can guarantee you that neither of those things will ever happen.
Isnt that happening in the comics right now? I dont think its a stretch. Until Cap is predictable resurrected, anyway.

Irish
08-07-2014, 10:45 PM
Isnt that happening in the comics right now? I dont think its a stretch. Until Cap is predictable resurrected, anyway.

Comics are a different beast. DC & Marvel enjoy switching things up to goose their readership & make national news ("Wonder Woman cut her hair!"). The Thor gender swap & making cap "black" announcements were timed to SDCC & the release of GOTG, for instance. Doing stuff like that in comics is low risk, high return.

In terms of the movies, we're really talking about putting an unknown black actor at the head of a major franchise and $300 mil productions. The studios might get there someday, but I don't think they're there just yet.

megladon8
08-07-2014, 10:56 PM
Irish you really need to stop talking like you know what the studios are thinking and what the fans want.

Dukefrukem
08-07-2014, 10:57 PM
I think that's why we have a discussion forum... to discuss those exact things.

megladon8
08-07-2014, 10:59 PM
I think that's why we have a discussion forum... to discuss those exact things.


I'm not sure who you're addressing here. If it's me, regarding my comment to Irish, well discussion is fine of course. But this putting the foot down, "I guarantee this is what will happen" and "fans don't want that!" (particularly when he doesn't even count himself among the fans of this stuff yet preaches that he knows everything about their tastes), is getting tiresome.

Dukefrukem
08-07-2014, 11:18 PM
I don't mind it.

Irish
08-07-2014, 11:32 PM
If it's me, regarding my comment to Irish, well discussion is fine of course. But this putting the foot down, "I guarantee this is what will happen" and "fans don't want that!"

First, go fuck yourself. This is the second time you've tried to play board cop & tell me what I can and cannot talk about. Let's not pretend that your brand of opinionated bullshit is somehow more palatable than mine.

Second, what you call "putting my foot down" I call having confidence in my assertion. You should try it sometime.

Third, I can actually back up a lot of what I'm saying, because (surprise!) I'm not the only one saying it. Can you?

megladon8
08-08-2014, 12:11 AM
Really confused about where that aggression came from, Irish...even in my first post where I called you out I started with a pleasant "dude I love ya, but..."

I am not playing "board cop". You've called me out on opinions / trends that bothered you so I don't see why it can't go both ways. I never said my opinions (or anyone's) are more "palatable" than yours.

Sven
08-08-2014, 12:14 AM
These goddamn movies bring out the worst in everyone.

megladon8
08-08-2014, 12:25 AM
I mean, I am sincerely sorry if what I said seemed out of line. Really I am. I meant it as a very normal every-day forum "call out" shall we say. Didn't see anything wrong with it nor was my tone meant to come across as aggressive.

I'm super confused right now.

number8
08-08-2014, 01:15 AM
We all know I'm the only one who makes correct predictions anyway. Amirite duke?

Watashi
08-08-2014, 01:43 AM
I mean, I am sincerely sorry if what I said seemed out of line. Really I am. I meant it as a very normal every-day forum "call out" shall we say. Didn't see anything wrong with it nor was my tone meant to come across as aggressive.

I'm super confused right now.

Go fuck yourself.

megladon8
08-08-2014, 01:59 AM
What the fuck?

Irish
08-08-2014, 02:09 AM
We all know I'm the only one who makes correct predictions anyway. Amirite duke?

I'm willing to bet the entirety of Watashi's paycheck that I'm not wrong about Black Cap.

megladon8
08-08-2014, 02:12 AM
I'm willing to bet the entirety of Watashi's paycheck that I'm not wrong about Black Cap.


You could very well be right, I was just theorizin' :) Since the second Cap movie was kind of like the first chapter of the death of Cap saga from the comics, and they diligently set up Falcon, and on the comics Falcon has taken over Cap's mantle - it was a theory is all.

Dukefrukem
08-08-2014, 03:26 AM
We all know I'm the only one who makes correct predictions anyway. Amirite duke?

This is fact.

Scar
08-08-2014, 03:37 AM
This thread needs scotch.

Morris Schæffer
08-08-2014, 05:24 AM
And pigeons

http://namesofbirds.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/pigeons.jpg

Skitch
08-08-2014, 12:16 PM
This thread needs scotch.

Me too.

MadMan
08-13-2014, 08:06 AM
Let's talk more about how Sneakers is awesome and ahead of its time.

Irish
08-13-2014, 09:49 AM
Let's talk more about how Sneakers is awesome and ahead of its time.

I just watched it again the other day. It is creepy-weird. Toward the end, Redford says to James Earl Jones' NSA Director character, "The only reason you want these codes is to spy on Americans."

It's a fun cast and the movie has a lot of entertaining moments but I wonder if any other group was ever assembled to do so little. The movie feels like every character outside Redford and Kingsley has like six lines.

I mean, in the final ten minutes it's like, hey audience fuck it! Here's James Earl Jones because, well James Earl Jones! Uh, okay. Well that's fun and totally random.

Dukefrukem
08-19-2014, 08:35 PM
If SHIELD had the tesseract in their possession since the 40s, why didn't Hydra just use that to take over the world instead of waiting until SHIELD built a few Helicarriers?

Why didn't Tony Stark know that Hydra had infiltrated SHIELD, since he bugged SHIELD in the Avengers and would apparently "know they're every dirty secret"?

[/nitpicking]

Grouchy
08-26-2014, 05:48 PM
Man, the real show-stopper here are the action scenes. They're bloody AMAZING. Every Captain America / Winter Soldier face-off is epic. It's real faithful to the spirit of Ed Brubacker's Cap comics, too, while at the same time developing its own (abridged) storyline. Is there a negative? Well, it has corny dialogue and some predictable developments, but for a superhero movie, it delivers big time.

transmogrifier
08-26-2014, 11:35 PM
64/100

Solid, but not elevating. Funny how I said that this universe needed irreverence to really work in praising Guardians of the Galaxy, and then the very next Marvel movie I see is probably the most serious and stolid, yet works anyway because it suits the character. The actual diabolical plan is kind of half-baked, and I thought the Winter Soldier was poorly used outside of the fight scenes.

megladon8
09-10-2014, 02:34 AM
This was so great. Jen and I have both come to the conclusion this is the best in the MCU.

Dead & Messed Up
09-14-2014, 10:10 AM
This was so great. Jen and I have both come to the conclusion this is the best in the MCU.

Just watched this for the first time, and I'm seriously considering this perspective.

I'm not completely onboard with MC's praise of the action scenes - I wish the shots breathed a little more. But the action was certainly explicable, and I liked how it was low on fantasy and so frequently spare and minimal. The two big fistfights (the one on the ship, the one in the climax) feel material. Which is a weird compliment, maybe, but after stuff like Thor and Hulk riding on an enormous fucking eel, focusing on two guys trading punches and knife-fighting is a great break.

What I really dug about this flick is partially what number8 responded to, which is that Captain's adaptable, but still such a straightforward, idealistic, decent human being. In a way, that makes this film a sort of bookend (or response) to The Dark Knight, which was also about state secrets and the price of freedom and surveillance and best-friend-turned-enemy. But this film counterpoints that one's calculated ambivalence (which makes sense for a noiry Batman picture) with a definite sense that there's a correct answer here, and Captain can help us find it. I kinda loved that.

Surprised no other Avengers stopped by to wish them well, but I are happy with keeping the story small.

I also loved that the film is the meatiest of the Marvel offerings so far. The contemporary parallels are obvious, but they never feel trite, and they're what the story's about, at its core. Again, to draw a comparison to Nolan, The Dark Knight Rises offers some class warfare context, but that's ultimately secondary to the story's main concerns with true despair and true courage. Not a huge patch on Nolan (I dig the hell out of Rises), but this film's social commentary is inseparable from its storyline, which makes for a more unified and effective film.

It was hilarious how Natasha just happened to have a face-altering device in the final moments of the story - was there setup for that I missed? How often would that have been useful? At least as often as the thing that cuts through car bottoms.

I enjoyed Mackie as Falcon, preposterous suit and all, but I wish he was allowed to have more of a perspective on events. He starts out well enough but becomes someone for Cap to talk at, not to.

I'm on the fence about making Hydra the explicit continuing cause of Shield's corruption, if only because I don't think Shield needs the help - similarly to how we all know the NSA isn't run by Nazis, just assholes. But taken metaphorically, the idea of the American military utilizing Nazi ideas and personnel to advance itself (and that influence continuing to this day) is straight-up factual. If I remember, the film name-checks Operation Paperclip. Respect.

The Saul Bass closing credits were a very fun touch.

Weird that they didn't just cast an old lady. This city is full of old ladies who want to act. Let the old ladies act. They're happy to play old ladies. Some of them are goddamn good at it.

That's a weird note to end on, so yeah. I'm not sure what my favorite Marvel film was before this. I feel like it was either Iron Man or The Avengers. But this is more thoughtful than those films, and it carries more interesting cinematic influence ('70s paranoia cinema), and it has the Captain, who's quickly become my favorite hero of the Marvel bunch.

Dukefrukem
01-06-2015, 12:10 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pszNJBHpFKw

DavidSeven
03-02-2015, 09:08 AM
Marvel has officially ushered in the era of TV in the cinema. These storylines don't matter to anyone who isn't already deeply ensconced in the Marvel Universe™. So, Hydra has been running S.H.I.E.L.D. all this time. I'm not sure why anyone should care. How does this film, standing alone, convey why this should matter to anyone beyond a handful of blatant allusions to the baddies being the equivalent of Nazi Germany? These are no longer standalone films. They are two-hour episodes of a larger multimedia series that spans film, network television and streaming services. The studio has gone all-in on this approach by hiring TV directors who understand their role in the creative pecking order. The result, while technically competent, is artless, soulless. We're in an era of studio-run movies; death to auteurism.

Bullet Points:


Too insular to the Marvel Universe to have much value outside of the larger multimedia enterprise that it's a part of.
So over-plotted it requires AI to read off 5-10 pages of exposition to make sense of the whole thing.
Trope alert, someone dies and comes back in a comic book movie. I'd say it undercut the only weighty thing that happened if it wasn't so obviously expected.
Film has some good style, and I appreciated the judicious use of CGI effects.
Winter Soldier is just Darth Maul, right? A little dull outside the bad-ass factor. Alexander Pierce (Redford) struck me as half-assed Ozymandias type.


That's what I have. As commercial filler between Avengers 1 and Avengers 2, it's fine. It's an acceptable bridge film. As standalone piece, it has little value outside a few decently staged action sequences. There is no singular vision here besides Marvel's. The Russo brothers have crafted a career out of executing the vision of creative forces above them. That's what they do here. It's little wonder that they found this story of a manipulable foot soldier to be so appealing. They, too, are just carrying out orders.

Sven
03-02-2015, 02:47 PM
Other than your concession to the decency of the action scene staging, your post rings true. It's nice to read a sane assessment of the film, finally.

megladon8
03-02-2015, 06:20 PM
Ehhhh...this and John Wick dominated the action movie scene this year.

The Russo Brothers' exemplary handling of the action sequences themselves elevated a fairly rote script to something special, and the earnest handling of scenes like Cap's meeting with Peggy and the dialogue between Cap and Falcon showed genuine care and interest in the characters. Far more than mere directors for hire.

number8
03-02-2015, 06:34 PM
Not that I don't see your point, but I'd say it's closer to publishing than television (and for an obvious reason, right?). There's a very strong cross-title editorial stance, but I don't find it nearly as rigorous as the necessary episode to episode homogenization of a television production.