The Book Discussion Thread

[Mara]

Two things have changed my mind about book-hoarding:

1. The internet, and

2. Living in a city with a fantastic public library system.

So many of the books I kept for years are now available for free on the internet (if they are out of copyright, which given my love of the classics, is a lot of books.)

Also, since I can get almost anything I want to read through the library, it's made it easier for me to get rid of books that I enjoyed but I don't need at my fingertips.

My exceptions (the books I insist on keeping) are books where I have an emotional connection to the book itself (like, given to me by a loved one), books that I reread regularly and want to have physically, books where I have made notes inside, and books that are out-of-print, hard to find, or original printings.

[D_Davis]

I don't care how big a pain they are, I love my books too much. I'd only sell the ones I read and didn't enjoy. Everything else stays.

I used to feel that way, but now I've realized that my love is in the reading of them, not in the having of them. :)

I'm going to try to get down to only one shelf.

[D_Davis]

Let all of us on here who haven't yet realized what a pain they are which ones you'll be selling!

It'll be a lot of SF, fantasy and weird fiction.

[Sven]

Where ya'll moving to?

Oh, not too far. A few blocks north. Bigger and cheaper. Lucky find. Definitely less stressful than moving across the country, which is what we did last time.

[Irish]

This is where I wish I had Davis' mailing address.

I'd bundle up all my books and just wait. A few hundred, ready to go. Every time Davis sold something, an anonymous box of books would show up on his doorstep the next day.

:P

[D_Davis]

This is where I wish I had Davis' mailing address.

I'd bundle up all my books and just wait. A few hundred, ready to go. Every time Davis sold something, an anonymous box of books would show up on his doorstep the next day.

:P

LOL!

DAMMMIITT!!!!

[Irish]

LOL!

DAMMMIITT!!!!

:lol:

It'd be better if we lived in the same city. That way, there'd be no postmark. You'd sell something online, I'd drive over a dump a box of books at your doorstep, ring the bell, and run the hell away.

[D_Davis]

Or if you were super wealthy, and you bought all my stuff and then just sent it all back - over, aaaand over, aaaaaand over, aaaaand over....

[D_Davis]

As I box up books I can take pictures of them in case anyone wants to see what's for sale. However, with shipping charges, I doubt you'll be able to get things cheaper from me than you would Amazon, so it might be pointless. If there is any interest in this, I'll do it, if not, then I won't.

[megladon8]

Or if you were super wealthy, and you bought all my stuff and then just sent it all back - over, aaaand over, aaaaaand over, aaaaand over....


But if you continued making money from this, wouldn't it be a true win-win situation?

[D_Davis]

But if you continued making money from this, wouldn't it be a true win-win situation?

Shshshhshshsh. Irish doesn't understand this part.

[D_Davis]

Man - getting rid of books is proving to be harder than I thought. First pass through my 5 cases yielded four paper boxes full of books to sell. Basically, I just got rid of some of the stuff that was double-stacked. Ugh. I want to be down to two shelves, no double stacks.

The main problem I'm running into is this: keep stuff that I've read and know I love, or keep stuff that I haven't read. It's the age old battle between the collector and the reader.

I know I'm keeping author collections, and right now that consists of: JG Ballard, William Peter Blatty, Ray Bradbury, Michael Cisco, Philip K. Dick, Stephen King, Joe R. Lansdale, Thomas Ligotti, Clifford D. Simak, Murial Spark, Rudy Ruker, Theodore Sturgeon, and Manly Wade Wellman. This will most likely take up an entire case.

[D_Davis]

Looks like this is the most valuable book I own.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/189238941X/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF 8&me=&seller=

Highest price, $700. I listed my like-new copy for $200.

I also have this collections. selling for $550.

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=1842636761&searchurl=an%3Drobert%2Bsheckl ey%26sortby%3D1

I need to list mine.

[EyesWideOpen]

Books can be shipped media mail so they are insanely cheap to ship inside the US. I shipped a almost fifty pound box of books for less then $20.

[dreamdead]

Halfway through Wendy Moore's How to Create the Perfect Wife, and it alternately fascinating and horrifying. I'm amazed at how thoroughly Day was able to procure young women to mold into a submissive wife, but moreover struck by abject dismay at how so many people knew of his plan and did nothing to report him for his physical torture of the women. Looking forward to seeing how it wraps.

[Mara]

Halfway through Wendy Moore's How to Create the Perfect Wife, and it alternately fascinating and horrifying. I'm amazed at how thoroughly Day was able to procure young women to mold into a submissive wife, but moreover struck by abject dismay at how so many people knew of his plan and did nothing to report him for his physical torture of the women. Looking forward to seeing how it wraps.

RIGHT? It just gets curiouser and curiouser.

Have you read Fanny Burney's Evelina? It's a pet favorite of mine; very readable and fun. It gets referenced, along with Ms. Burney herself, several times in the second half of the book.

[dreamdead]

Have you read Fanny Burney's Evelina? It's a pet favorite of mine; very readable and fun. It gets referenced, along with Ms. Burney herself, several times in the second half of the book.

I wrote a graduate essay on it, but there's the slightest of chances (by which I mean 100%) that said essay was based on a skim read of the book during a busy semester. I've long wanted to go back and actually read it since I liked the class discussion around it. I think that's next year's number one book to get to.

[Mara]

I wrote a graduate essay on it, but there's the slightest of chances (by which I mean 100%) that said essay was based on a skim read of the book during a busy semester. I've long wanted to go back and actually read it since I liked the class discussion around it. I think that's next year's number one book to get to.

It is a flawed book (most notably, both the main character and the main love interest are boringly perfect) but it has a good sense of humor and fascinating side characters. It also has an edge of danger that is very different than anything you see in Austen (where the characters are very protected) or either of the two elder Brontes (where the dangers are exaggerated.) Burney has an axe to grind over how disenfranchised, humiliated, and debased women can be, especially by men in power.

Take this for an example. In Pride and Prejudice, Wickham takes Lydia and absconds with her. It is unclear at first exactly how much consent was involved, if they were getting married, or what was going on. The (hinted at) worst case scenario is that Wickham lied to Lydia to convince her to leave with him and is planning on dallying with her for a time before discarding her. This is, essentially, a kidnapping (she's sixteen!) and brings up some serious consent issues, if he is having sex with her under false pretenses.

Lizzy's uncle says this about it: "It appears to me so very unlikely that any young man should form such a design against a girl who is by no means unprotected or friendless, and who was actually staying in his colonel's family, that I am strongly inclined to hope the best. Could he expect that her friends would not step forward? Could he expect to be noticed again by the regiment, after such an affront to Colonel Forster? His temptation is not adequate to the risk!"

I mean... think about that for a moment. The unspoken suggestion in this speech is that if silly, teenage Lydia did not have powerful friends, it would be okay to kidnap and ruin her. I mean, as long as he doesn't offend the army.

So, in a way, Evelina is the story of a woman who does not have the protections that Lydia has. She is beautiful, so she attracts men, but she is not rich, so they do not want to marry her. She doesn't have clear family ties or important friends. She is therefore treated as the property of any man who shows any kind of interest.

Meanwhile, women who are neither beautiful nor rich are treated with naked hostility.

Mrs. Selwyn, who is poor, middle-aged, and plain, gets a lot of this:


"For my part, deuce take me if ever I wish to hear a word of sense from a woman as long as I live!"


"I have the honour to be quite of your Lordship's opinion," said Mr. Lovel, looking maliciously at Mrs. Selwyn; "for I have an insuperable aversion to strength, either of body or mind, in a female."


"Mrs. Selwyn, indeed, afforded some relief from this formality, but the unbounded license of her tongue--"

"O, Sir Clement, do you object to that?"

"Yes, my sweet reproacher, in a woman I do; in a woman I think it intolerable."


"I don't know what the devil a woman lives for after thirty: she is only in other folk's way."

Let alone the actual violence shown to old women in the book: Madam Duval is attacked, beaten, humiliated, dumped in horse manure, robbed, and so on as pranks, in the spirit of fun. Late in the novel two men race two eighty-year-old women for a bet:


...the poor creature was too much hurt to move, and declared her utter inability to make another attempt. Mr. Coverly was quite brutal: he swore at her with unmanly rage, and seemed scarce able to refrain even from striking her.

Long story short: even though it is an imperfect novel, I think it is really worth reading, both for entertainment value and also to get a look at the many strata of English society that Burney examines.

[dreamdead]

Thanks for the breakdown on Burney, Mara. I do expect to get to it next year.

Finished out How to Create the Perfect Wife. It remains truly fascinating through the end, particularly because of Thomas Day's contradictions. He's an outspoken advocate against the concept of slavery and denounces American independence when the colonies remain compliant with slavery, yet he's essentially bound up Sabrina. He valorizes childhood education but refuses his wife the ability to write. The degree to which Sabrina's story is repeated in 18th and 19th century literature is endlessly captivating, and the way that Seward turns against Day and the others suggests that she too would be interesting to read more about. Thanks for highlighting this book--doubt I'd have considered reading it otherwise. :)

Also, Edgeworth put out 22 children with four wives. Ye gods.

Finally getting headway in DeLillo's Libra, so that's exciting. Such gorgeous prose. Looking forward to engaging with Oswald's battered pysche.

[Benny Profane]

I'm about 600 pages through The Stand and cruising right along. Hope this Mother Abigail character isn't just a "wise minority" stereotype.

[Mara]

Let's Explore Diabetes with Owls is an excellent return to form for David Sedaris. (I did not care for Squirrel Meets Chipmunk.) It's funny and clever, and although I think his writing has lost a little bite over the years I find myself enjoying older, mellower, middle-aged Sedaris. He also intersperses his essays with fictional monologues, some of which have some of his best creative writing I've seen (although a couple of them tread over the same subjects too many times, and one was too mean-spirited for me to find funny.) Recommended.

[D_Davis]

I'm about 600 pages through The Stand and cruising right along. Hope this Mother Abigail character isn't just a "wise minority" stereotype.

She is. King frequently relies on the magical negro archetype. Might as well get that out in the open. :)

[dreamdead]

Similar to how Stephen King published under Richard Bachman, Robert Galbraith's The Cuckoo's Calling has been revealed as one of J. K. Rowling's novels (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/15/books/a-detective-storys-famous-author-is-unmasked.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0). I'm rather intrigued to read it just to see why she felt like publishing under a pseudonym.

[Irish]

Similar to how Stephen King published under Richard Bachman, Robert Galbraith's The Cuckoo's Calling has been revealed as one of J. K. Rowling's novels (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/15/books/a-detective-storys-famous-author-is-unmasked.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0). I'm rather intrigued to read it just to see why she felt like publishing under a pseudonym.

I like that she did that, but the whole thing smells like a stunt. The arts editor for The Sunday Times gets an anonymous tip ... over twitter? Pfft.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I like that she did that, but the whole thing smells like a stunt. The arts editor for The Sunday Times gets an anonymous tip ... over twitter? Pfft.

My guess is it was well-intentioned at the start, but when sales were paltry, someone from the publishing company let it slip in order to boost sales.

[Mara]

My guess is it was well-intentioned at the start, but when sales were paltry, someone from the publishing company let it slip in order to boost sales.

I'm sure everyone planned for it to come out at some point, but Rowling was annoyed that it was out already. Once the news broke, sales of course were going to go bonkers. I doubt that the leak was official at this point, because if it was coordinated there's no way it leaks on a Saturday night; that's a bad news cycle. They would have picked a day early in the week (Tuesday or Wednesday) that would have met with awake people in both the US and UK.

But if Ms. Jo did it in order to get honest critical feedback other than "THE AUTHOR OF HARRY POTTER" then, well, she won. She got a book published, critical reactions (positive) and reader reactions (goodreads and twitter; positive) and was able to get out from under her own shadow, if you will. I think it's pretty cool.

I checked out Goodreads right after the first news broke and read the reviews. Some liked it; some loved it. People had Things to Say. As a writer, she must have found that refreshing.

[Irish]

I doubt that the leak was official at this point, because if it was coordinated there's no way it leaks on a Saturday night; that's a bad news cycle. They would have picked a day early in the week (Tuesday or Wednesday) that would have met with awake people in both the US and UK.

Good point, but it was the arts editor for The Sunday Times that broke it. They wanted the story for today's edition.

Still no way to know for sure, but I think an argument can be made for weekend PR. Leaking during the week risks getting overshadowed by current events, politics, DVD releases, and summer blockbusters. On Sunday, the news dominates the arts pages, twitter, etc. The book is already #1 on the Amazon best seller list in both the UK and US.

[D_Davis]

I did it! I got my books down to two shelves.

http://i.imgur.com/Permqu9.jpg

Selling 2 shelves of books.

I cheated a little bit, in that I'm keeping my vintage SFF, but those are boxed up in small boxes. They're easy to store in boxes. Also, I have a small shelf of religious/theology/science/philosophy that I'm keeping in my bedroom.

A lot of those books on the right shelf will probably be sold once I've read them.

I decided to keep mainly author collections. The shelf on the left, from the very top, consists of:

Bradbury
Ballard
Bester (the three Bs)
Blatty
Cisco
Dick
Erdelac
Harrison
King (only keeping Dark Tower, On Writing, Eyes of the Dragon and Cycle of the Werewold (for the art in both), and his short story collections in MM)
Ligotti
Lansdale
Lightman
McDermott
McMurtry
Rucker
Sheckley

And then on the right:

Sturgeon
Saroyan
Sparks
Stapledon
Sorokin
Valente
Wilson
Wellman

And from then on its random stuff that I either love or still really want to read.



My new book buying rule:

Anything normal and mainstream will be purchased on Kindle or checked out from the library.

I'm only buying vintage SFF mass market paperbacks (pre-1980) and very rare or limited edition hardbacks. One thing I won't be doing, ever, is spending $15+ on a stupid mainstream Trade Paperback, the biggest scam this side of text books. "We'll make it bigger, so we can charge twice as much!"

[Mara]

Allie Brosh's book is coming out.

http://www.amazon.com/Hyperbole-Half-Unfortunate-Situations-Mechanisms/dp/1451666179/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1373853758&sr=1-1&keywords=hyperbole+and+a+half

I'm really glad.

Allie Brosh exists in my weird mental compartment of "people I don't know personally but I spend time worrying about them and then when they succeed I feel responsible because I made it happen with my mind."

[Lucky]

Books can be shipped media mail so they are insanely cheap to ship inside the US. I shipped a almost fifty pound box of books for less then $20.

No kidding? You just express that you're shipping books to the post office and this discounted rate goes into effect? Does it have to be educationally related?

[Irish]

No kidding? You just express that you're shipping books to the post office and this discounted rate goes into effect? Does it have to be educationally related?

Nope. Just tell them you want it shipped "media mail." Be forewarned it's slow as hell, though. Like, they tie your boxes to a donkey and let it walk across the US with your stuff. That's the trade off.

[Mara]

They might also shake the package, or try to feel the edges, and look at you suspiciously.

I love media mail, though. In my experience it doesn't get there as slowly as they warn you it will-- just a day or two longer than normal.

Also, at my regular post office, you can't ship media mail from any of the kiosks or self-serve areas; you have to wait in line. Worth it.

[megladon8]

I hate mass market paperbacks.

[D_Davis]

Also, media mail can be opened and inspected at any point during the transit.

[D_Davis]

I hate mass market paperbacks.

Old MM are my favorite kind of book. Love those old vintage SFF books. Books small enough that you can actually put in your pocket!

Don't really care for new ones, though. Especially that new larger size. Yuck!

[Irish]

Books small enough that you can actually put in your pocket!

This! Times a thousand.

I love mass market paperbacks. Over the years, I've hung onto cheap copies of "Tropic of Cancer, "The Great Gatsby," and "The Sun Also Rises" for this reason. On every new job, I shove "Tropic of Cancer" into my back pocket, based on a personal superstition that nothing terribly bad can happen when you've got Henry Miller with you.

I loathe trade paperbacks. They're often printed on the same cheap paper that turns yellow after a year and cost twice as much. As a man, you can't do anything with them. They don't fit easily into bigger jacket pockets and unless you're carrying a "murse," you've got no option but to tuck it under your arm, or awkwardly carry it in one hand. Blech.

I'd buy more books new if they came in roughly printed, cheaper editions.

[megladon8]

I love trade paperbacks. They're my favorite format.

The "it fits in your pocket" argument for MM's doesn't apply to me - I would never, ever put a book in my pocket and risk damaging it.

I treat my books like gold. I've returned books to Amazon because they've come with bent covers or creased spines.

It's why I don't lend books anymore. I find it very disrespectful to be returned something in worse condition than when it left my hands.

[ledfloyd]

I don't share Irish and Davis's love of MM paperbacks, but I do like when my books get beat up a little. It gives them personality.

[D_Davis]

I bend books, fold pages, write in them, throw them in bags, put them in pockets, put post-it notes all over the pages...use them.

To me, a book is a tool, and a tool gets worn even when it's being used with care and love.

Over the last few years I've realized that the value of a book is in its words, not in the physical thing. This has been a very freeing realization for me.

Of course I don't like it when other people do this to my books, like meg I find that disrespectful.

[megladon8]

Ya do what you wish with your own books, but don't return my property with your annotations and cheeto stains, please.

[D_Davis]

Those weren't cheeto stains.

[Mara]

I try to be somewhat careful with my books, but I do annotate them.

Unless they are arty somehow (first editions, books with artwork, strong sentimental value) in which I keep them impeccably.

[D_Davis]

Unless they are arty somehow (first editions, books with artwork, strong sentimental value) in which I keep them impeccably.

Same here on expensive first editions. Those are usually purchased more as art than as a book, so they serve different purpases.

[ledfloyd]

Over the last few years I've realized that the value of a book is in its words, not in the physical thing. This has been a very freeing realization for me.
This is kind of why I've never been able to comprehend the attraction of first editions.

[D_Davis]

This is kind of why I've never been able to comprehend the attraction of first editions.

For me this is when the book itself becomes a work of art (cover, binding, etc) that adds value to the words. I'm not talking about some mass produced first edition, or an expensive first edition trade paper back (LOL), I'm talking about something very rare, < 500 copies, hand stitched, etc. I have books that have a print run of ~250 copies.

[Mara]

Per this, a lawyer told his wife's best friend about Rowling's pseudonym, who then tweeted it out.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2013/07/18/world/europe/ap-eu-britain-rowling.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0

I know a couple MCers won't believe it, but I do. For one thing, I doubt the law firm would falsely admit to something that makes them look terrible, unreliable, and unable to keep secrets.

[D_Davis]

Just goes to show how silly best-seller lists are, and that so many people will only like something they are familiar with.

Like when I, LIbertine was briefly on the best seller list...a book that hadn't even been written yet!

[megladon8]

I think my problem with Mass Market Paperbacks (aside from them looking ugly on the shelf next to all my pretty hardcovers), is that they have become synonymous with the drugstore dime-a-dozen crime and romance novels that frequent best seller lists.

Classic MM's are often very pretty. The old SF or crime books with the red page edges and incredibly cool art are neat-o.

But now I go to Chapters and the mass market paperbacks are solely the Nora Roberts, Danielle Steele, and whatever 900th volume of "Odd Thomas" story Dean Koontz has just released.

And with the advent of Amazon, where I can get a nice full sized trade paperback for the same price (or less, as is most often the case) as buying a mass market paperback at the store, the choice is easy for me.

I also find the larger paperbacks just much more comfortable to read. I only ever read at home, and I lie in bed with the book in front of me. It's not very comfortable or easy with a smaller book.

[D_Davis]

Oh yeah - I don't touch modern MMs.

I'm talking strictly about vintage stuff.

[Hugh_Grant]

I try to be somewhat careful with my books, but I do annotate them...

Me, too. I always thought it was a side effect of my job, practice what you preach, etc.

When faculty retire and give away books, we profs love the annotated ones.

[Mara]

I loaned a young friend my heavily annotated copy of 1984 that I had used when I taught it. It was like a whole second novel in the margins.

I apologized later for the condition, and he said, "Actually, it's cool. It's like having a conversation with you and reading the book at the same time."

[EyesWideOpen]

No kidding? You just express that you're shipping books to the post office and this discounted rate goes into effect? Does it have to be educationally related?

Yep. When you say you want to send something "Media Mail" they'll just ask you what you're shipping and you say books and that's it.
Your package can be inspected if you ship it media mail but I've used it hundreds of times and never had an issue.

Here's what you can send media mail:

"Books (at least 8 pages).
Sound recordings (e.g., video recordings and DVDs).
Playscripts and manuscripts for books, periodicals and music.
Printed music.
Computer readable media containing pre-recorded information and guides or scripts prepared solely for use with such media (e.g., commercially available instruction videos/DVDs).
Sixteen millimeter or narrow witdth films.
Printed objective test materials and their accessories.
Printed educational reference charts.
Loose-leaf pages and their binders consisting of medical information for distribution to doctor, hospital, medical school or student."

Things you can't send:
Video Games, comic books (they contain ads), magazines (because of ads)

I know lots of comic book sites that send their comics media mail but it is technically not allowed and if inspected will be sent back to you.


Nope. Just tell them you want it shipped "media mail." Be forewarned it's slow as hell, though. Like, they tie your boxes to a donkey and let it walk across the US with your stuff. That's the trade off.

I've sold hundreds of books online over the last few years all shipped media mail on average for me took around 4-5 days (and that's anywhere in the US). I only ever had one book take 10+ days.

[dreamdead]

Finished out DeLillo's Libra, his 1988 study on Oswald and the Kennedy assassination. It is masterful in its exploration of conspiracies, and the tunnel effect that DeLillo achieves in the last 150 pages is phenomenal, when plot and mythology collide. It's likely not as haunting as his Underworld, but I don't expect him to hit those rhapsodic heights again. This does, however, dialogue with King's 11/22/63 in interesting ways, and those who've read the latter should check this out.

Moving onto Chang-rae Lee's A Gesture Life to finish out his writings.

[D_Davis]

Finished out DeLillo's Libra, his 1988 study on Oswald and the Kennedy assassination. It is masterful in its exploration of conspiracies, and the tunnel effect that DeLillo achieves in the last 150 pages is phenomenal, when plot and mythology collide. It's likely not as haunting as his Underworld, but I don't expect him to hit those rhapsodic heights again. This does, however, dialogue with King's 11/22/63 in interesting ways, and those who've read the latter should check this out.


I've been wanting to give DeLillo a read, and with my fascination with conspiracy theories and esoterica currently reignited, Libra sounds interesting.

[dreamdead]

I've been wanting to give DeLillo a read, and with my fascination with conspiracy theories and esoterica currently reignited, Libra sounds interesting.

It's a bit slow in the beginning, and I worry that the slow circling of the plot for the first 50-100 pages might make you apathetic, but the different angles that DeLillo and King focus on in their exploration of Lee/Marina and the psychology of Lee (especially in Russia and in the last few months of '63) makes them interesting partners for study. I find that DeLillo is at his best when he's got real-world history to draw on; it reigns in his esoterica and holds it to a fundamentally propulsive reading experience.

[Benny Profane]

I find that DeLillo is at his best when he's got real-world history to draw on;

The first 60 pages of Underworld may be the greatest thing I've ever read.

(The Bobby Thompson home run game for those who haven't read it)

[Hugh_Grant]

Libra is one of those books I picked up from a retiring faculty purge, but never got around to reading it.

I need to reread Mister Pip for class this fall. Yay.

[ledfloyd]

The first 60 pages of Underworld may be the greatest thing I've ever read.

(The Bobby Thompson home run game for those who haven't read it)
Yeah, I get it off the shelf and read just those 60 pages from time to time.

[D_Davis]

I just sold a book for $200! That's the most expensive, single book sale I've ever made. Bought the whole set for $100, and sold one volume for twice that.

INVESTING!

[Lucky]

I think a number of you guys would really get something out of Gillian Flynn's Gone Girl. It's not a perfect book, but it's so unusual and twisted and psychologically gruesome that the minor flaws are quite forgivable.

As a warning, it is really grim. The characters start out pretty awful and then get worse and worse. It's a book about sociopaths-- not one or two, but a whole fleet of them. It's also fixated on media culture, especially how it latches on to missing person cases, and how over-analyzed and sensationalized these have become.

I remember reading how The Great Gatsby didn't make a huge splash when it came out, but in retrospect it was seen as a perfect encapsulation of The Jazz Age... and to me, this book will be looked back on as a perfect encapsulation of the post-mortgage-bubble, post-9-11, post-instant-news-cycle but pre-whatever-comes-next era.

I really want to talk about it, but it's one of those books where the less you know going in, the better.

I haven't forgotten this post, and I started this book last night. Only 5% in, but I really enjoyed the section chronicling how writers became irrelevant. I can already see why you're predicting this will be a revered time capsule in another generation.

[Winston*]

Oh man, How Late it Was, How Late is oppressive. Opening sentence:

""Ye wake in a corner and stay there hoping yer body will disappear, the thoughts smothering ye; these thoughts; but ye want to remember and face up to things, just something keeps ye from doing it, why can ye no do it; the words filling yer head: then the other words; there's something wrong; there's something far far wrong; ye're no a good man, ye're just no a good man."

Doesn't get sunnier from there.

[Lucky]

25% in. Nick's rant about how modern people aren't real and just recite lines from a catalogue of characters hit me hard. I highlighted for about two pages straight.

[dreamdead]

Muriel Spark's The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie is quite evocative in its depiction of the inner torment of female adolescence, where betrayal is achieved not through direct contact but rather through cursory misreading of situations and indirect causation. Sandy comes off as deeply troubled and trying to ascertain Brodie's power, and her execution of affairs to better secure her own power come off as natural, Darwinian, and utterly flawed in how little they the course of attraction in others. In this way, her progression, or perhaps regression, to the convent in adulthood is telling. Spark's narrative moves seamlessly between past and present, and it's in these digressions that much of the fundamental strength of the novel is located. As the girls' adult choices either echo or renounce their adolescent paths, Spark reveals the core of the novel's ideas. And in its study of atonement, it remains powerful and prescient.

[D_Davis]

Muriel Spark's The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie is quite evocative in its depiction of the inner torment of female adolescence, where betrayal is achieved not through direct contact but rather through cursory misreading of situations and indirect causation. Sandy comes off as deeply troubled and trying to ascertain Brodie's power, and her execution of affairs to better secure her own power come off as natural, Darwinian, and utterly flawed in how little they the course of attraction in others. In this way, her progression, or perhaps regression, to the convent in adulthood is telling. Spark's narrative moves seamlessly between past and present, and it's in these digressions that much of the fundamental strength of the novel is located. As the girls' adult choices either echo or renounce their adolescent paths, Spark reveals the core of the novel's ideas. And in its study of atonement, it remains powerful and prescient.

One of my favorites. Everything I've read from Spark has been great.

[dreamdead]

One of my favorites. Everything I've read from Spark has been great.

What are your other faves of hers? Memento Mori looks interesting, but I welcome direction on where to go with her next.

[D_Davis]

What are your other faves of hers? Memento Mori looks interesting, but I welcome direction on where to go with her next.

I've only read three other things: The Comforters (loved), The Driver's Seat (really loved, one of the best things I've ever read), and a collection of ghost stories (most were good).

I've got a number of other novels and collections to read, including Memento Mori, which sounds great.

The one I want to read next is Robinson, which is Spark's take on Robinson Crusoe, complete with her trademark weirdness and eccentric characters.

I highly recommend The Driver's Seat, though. That book completely knocked me on my ass.

[dreamdead]

Our library has The Driver's Seat, so I'll grab that one from the library soon. Thanks for the rec!

I found this interesting: Authors' favorite first lines of books (http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2013/07/this-did-something-powerful-to-me-authors-favorite-first-lines-of-books/278085/). I'll always be prone to DeLillo's opening from Underworld: "He speaks in your voice, American, and there's a shine in his eye that's halfway hopeful."

[D_Davis]

I found this interesting: Authors' favorite first lines of books (http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2013/07/this-did-something-powerful-to-me-authors-favorite-first-lines-of-books/278085/). I'll always be prone to DeLillo's opening from Underworld: "He speaks in your voice, American, and there's a shine in his eye that's halfway hopeful."

Mine:

"The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed."
The Gunslinger, Stephen King

[Benny Profane]

"If I am out of my mind, it is all right with me," thought Moses Herzog.


And at the risk of being totally obvious, my other favorite would be:

"A screaming comes across the sky."

[Duncan]

Our library has The Driver's Seat, so I'll grab that one from the library soon. Thanks for the rec!

I found this interesting: Authors' favorite first lines of books (http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2013/07/this-did-something-powerful-to-me-authors-favorite-first-lines-of-books/278085/). I'll always be prone to DeLillo's opening from Underworld: "He speaks in your voice, American, and there's a shine in his eye that's halfway hopeful."

Reminds me vaguely of The Adventures of Augie March: "I am an American, Chicago born—Chicago, that somber city—and go at things as I have taught myself, free-style, and will make the record in my own way: first to knock, first admitted; sometimes an innocent knock, sometimes a not so innocent."

Very different voices and I'm not sure that they're truly saying the same thing, but for me there's an echo.

[Mara]

Gaiman's The Ocean at the End of the Lane is good stuff.

[Lucky]

53% in. The timelines have merged. Many questions. Little Vertigoesque.

[Mara]

53% in. The timelines have merged. Many questions. Little Vertigoesque.

Seriously. It makes the book so hard to talk about.

[amberlita]

53% in. The timelines have merged. Many questions. Little Vertigoesque.

I see you have an e-reader.

[Mara]

I mostly checked out Someday, Someday Maybe because I was curious if Lauren Graham could write, not really expecting much. And it was actually absorbing and fun? It wasn't the most polished debut I've read, but Graham brings warmth and humor to her story (about a struggling actress in New York in the mid-90's) and has a lot of Thoughts about Chasing the Dream. Good (if not ambitious) read.

[Milky Joe]

I just got a book from a sidewalk sale for 50¢ that can only be found online for upwards of $300. A winner is me.

[Grouchy]

I just got a book from a sidewalk sale for 50¢ that can only be found online for upwards of $300. A winner is me.
What book?

[Milky Joe]

The Saturn Myth by David Talbott (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0385113765?ie=UTF8&force-full-site=1&ref_=aw_bottom_links)

[ledfloyd]

A few days late, but speaking of opening sentences and Gaiman, I've always liked: It begins, as most things begin, with a song.

Lolita and Moby Dick are other obvious choices.

[Raiders]

I think only a few people here read Tinkers, but I just discovered that Harding's follow-up Enon is being released on September 10th. Read a couple advance reviews and it sounds like more of the same exceptional prose.

I take this as a another opportunity to encourage everyone to read Tinkers (here's my initial thread (http://matchcut.artboiled.com/showthread.php?3449-Tinkers-(Paul-Harding-2009))). I have read it twice now, and I do not exaggerate when I declare it one of the five or ten best novels I have ever read.

[D_Davis]

I think only a few people here read Tinkers, but I just discovered that Harding's follow-up Enon is being released on September 10th. Read a couple advance reviews and it sounds like more of the same exceptional prose.

I take this as a another opportunity to encourage everyone to read Tinkers (here's my initial thread (http://matchcut.artboiled.com/showthread.php?3449-Tinkers-(Paul-Harding-2009))). I have read it twice now, and I do not exaggerate when I declare it one of the five or ten best novels I have ever read.

I liked it enough to be interested in something new from the author. Thanks for the reminder!

[D_Davis]

What the hell is up with so many books being titled: Book's Title: A Novel?

It's so stupid.

Even Stephen King's upcoming Dr. Sleep is titled Dr. Sleep: A Novel. What? It's a novel? Damn, thought it was an app.

[Derek]

Drop the CSG monicker and go with Daniel Davis: A Musician.

[D_Davis]

Drop the CSG monicker and go with Daniel Davis: A Musician.

Dude - I dropped CSG two albums ago. ;)

I'll change the name of my new album to: Later that Morning: An Album

[Derek]

I know you dropped it a couple years ago, but I could've sworn you brought it back for one of your recent releases. My Apologies: A Misunderstanding. :)

[D_Davis]

I know you dropped it a couple years ago, but I could've sworn you brought it back for one of your recent releases. My Apologies: A Misunderstanding. :)

Ah - yes, I retired it a while ago, brought it back for an EP or 2, and then killed it off for good last year. :)

[megladon8]

I've discovered some wonderful authors this year. Some new, some old (whom I just hadn't read anything from before).

I really want to make a thread where people can share authors they've found.

[ledfloyd]

Even Stephen King's upcoming Dr. Sleep is titled Dr. Sleep: A Novel. What? It's a novel? Damn, thought it was an app.
They wanted to differentiate it from the technical manuals he is known for.

[megladon8]

A glass of water spilled and landed on a couple of my (relatively) new books.

Nothing too bad - a few swollen corners, little areas of crinkled pages.

I wish I didn't find this so upsetting.

[dreamdead]

A glass of water spilled and landed on a couple of my (relatively) new books.

Nothing too bad - a few swollen corners, little areas of crinkled pages.

I wish I didn't find this so upsetting.

I cursed for about half an half a few years ago when The Sun Also Rises slipped from my hand as I was getting into my car and landed in the snow gathered around it, distorting the cover and first forty pages. So mad at my clumsiness.

Meanwhile, do that discovery thread. I'd certainly contribute.

[Mysterious Dude]

Mrs. Dalloway was a chore. I would be reading the words on the page, reach the end of a paragraph, and realize that my mind was wandering and I hadn't been paying attention to what I was reading at all. Names would appear and I sensed I was supposed to remember them, but I didn't. I felt like I had ADD. Even the last few pages were difficult to get through.

It did make me realize that most books are a lot like plays in the way dialogue is used, but Woolf rejects that format, and we get some dialogue, but more often we only get the gist of what they're saying. I think I prefer the traditional way.

[dreamdead]

Knocked out two more Muriel Spark novellas. First was The Girls of Slender Means, which is a ribald if only intermittently interesting study of the immediate 1945 post-war conditions in London. The story's structure was oddly lacking in any sustained theme for me, which neutralized much of the novella's impact. That said, the climax contains raw beauty--I just wish that Spark had woven that throughout more thoroughly.

The Driver's Seat, though, was excellent. Even though Spark hides her true motive to the narrative until the last chapter, this one cultivates an aura of mystery and energy that allows the novella to coalesce into magnificence. The last chapter, meanwhile, is killer, revealing the sense of constant threat that had been moving throughout the narrative. I had thought Spark was heading toward a "ghost story" narrative, so the actual tale was even juicier, and surprisingly graphic for its day. Really pleased with this one. Thanks for rec'ing it, DD.

[D_Davis]

The Driver's Seat, though, was excellent. Even though Spark hides her true motive to the narrative until the last chapter, this one cultivates an aura of mystery and energy that allows the novella to coalesce into magnificence. The last chapter, meanwhile, is killer, revealing the sense of constant threat that had been moving throughout the narrative. I had thought Spark was heading toward a "ghost story" narrative, so the actual tale was even juicier, and surprisingly graphic for its day. Really pleased with this one. Thanks for rec'ing it, DD.

Yeah! It's a masterpiece.

Still can't believe I wasn't introduced to her in all of my lit classes in high school and college; just another way the education system failed.

She's my favorite writer of straight fiction.

[D_Davis]

Is there a book that made you change the way you did something in your daily life? I don't mean some nebulous, metaphysical, "life-changing" intellectual thing, I mean something that shaped the way you did something, something physical, real, and tangible.

For me, there is only one book I can think of, and that is Stephen King's The Drawing of the Three. Jack Mort, the book's antagonist, is truly the most realistically evil and terrifying character I've ever encountered in a work of fiction, regardless of medium, and his portion of the book is among the best pages I've ever read of any book.

After reading this book, I no longer stand on the edge of curbs when waiting to cross the street, or when waiting for a bus, or train. I basically stay the hell away from all ledges, and I am constantly aware of every person waiting around me. Almost every single day that has gone by during the last eight-or-so years, since the time I first read this book, I've thought about that character, and his actions.

It's a simple thing, but King's book absolutely changed the way I live my daily life.

[dreamdead]

Finished Chang-rae Lee's A Gesture Life, which looks at the slow haunting of memory when one fails to intervene. Situated around memories of Korean/Japanese Franklin Hata who lives in Japan during World War 2 and observes the brutal conditions afforded to Korean comfort women, it links that (sometimes willful, sometimes impotent) inability to affect positive change with a later instance of Hata in America suffering through the alienation effect that those memories have in his current relationship with his adopted Korean daughter. It doesn't quite resonate with the power of his Native Speaker, but it's solid.

Balancing Maxine Hong Kingston's China Men and Paul Harding's Tinkers now.

[megladon8]

I'm part of a book group whose next book is Joyce Carol Oates' "The Gravedigger's Daughter".

I have never read any of her work.

What are MCers' feelings towards her and, by extension, this book?

[Kurosawa Fan]

Have yet to read any of her novels, but "Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?" is one of my favorite short stories.

[Mara]

Have yet to read any of her novels, but "Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?" is one of my favorite short stories.

I have actually a similar thing. I read "Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?" and thought it was brilliant, so I sought what at that time was her most recent book, Man Crazy. I completely hated it. I hated it so much I haven't been able to bring myself to read anything else. Like, I think there might be something I'm missing, but I'm cautious of reading her again.

So, with a good recommendation, I might be willing to check her out again.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I have actually a similar thing. I read "Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?" and thought it was brilliant, so I sought what at that time was her most recent book, Man Crazy. I completely hated it. I hated it so much I haven't been able to bring myself to read anything else. Like, I think there might be something I'm missing, but I'm cautious of reading her again.

So, with a good recommendation, I might be willing to check her out again.

I know Val liked A Garden of Earthly Delights a lot, and then bought The Accursed on a whim, and couldn't even get through it. Perhaps she's just that hit or miss? Not sure, but I've heard great things about her Wonderland Quartet (which kicks off with Earthly Delights), so you might start there.

[Dead & Messed Up]

About 2/3 of the way through Maugham's The Painted Veil. It's nice. Nothing ground-breaking, nothing formally daring. Just good old-fashioned character-based storytelling. I don't think I like it as much as The Razor's Edge, but that novel's a bit more ambitious with its rotating cast of characters. The Painted Veil focuses on one married couple and examines their stresses and challenges.

There is a bit of Razor's fascination with the mystical Orient as a place of renewal and enlightenment, but here the incitement for self-discovery is an outbreak of cholera, not religious answers.

I don't know if any of you read or enjoy Maugham, but I'd recommend the book.

[Lucky]

I enjoyed the film adaptation of The Painted Veil. Underrated.

[Mara]

People get sick.

Fine.

People are too sick to do fun things.

Fine.

But being home sick for more or less three days when all my books from the library are crappy is a burden I cannot bear.

[Mara]

I haven't read much Dickens, for whatever reason. I read Oliver Twist in high school and Great Expectations a few years later and that's it.

So I'm enjoying A Tale of Two Cities more than I expected. It makes two very innocuous activities (knitting and shoe-making) abjectly terrifying.

[dreamdead]

Mara, if you haven't read it yet, check out 84, Charing Cross Road by Helene Hanff. It's a reprinting of correspondence from 1950-69 between a poor American script writer and a British bookseller who locates the editions that she requests. It's marvelous, full of personality, and only about an hour read. Delightful and truly heart-touching.

[Mara]

I always sort of wanted to see that film; didn't realize it was a book. I'll check it out!

[Grouchy]

Just finished The Rum Diary. It's quite good and offers a good portrait of Hunter S. Thompson's early years, before he developed Gonzo.

But, one thing that pissed me off... The film they made out of it (which is kind of blah) is basically its own story, only sharing a couple of characters and moments with the original text. So, what's the point of doing it at all if you're just gonna make up something new? I like Bruce Robinson but he really missed the mark there.

[megladon8]

Any thoughts/opinions on Jim Crace?

[Mara]

Read an entire book during jury duty yesterday because... jury duty.

Anyway, I take the bullet for y'all by reading all the YA in the world, but only recommending the good stuff. YOU'RE WELCOME. That said, The 5th Wave by Rick Yancey is pretty awesome. There are a few elements that don't work perfectly, but it is grim, hard-edged sci-fi for the youth crowd, and that's a rare gem. It's a survival tale told after the first four "waves" of an alien invasion have wiped out 99% of the human population. More explosions, less kissing. I approve.

Also finished up A Tale of Two Cities, because I'm well-rounded like that. Dickens can polish a phrase like nobody's business, and I found myself surprisingly affected by the ending when he's tugging on our heartstrings as hard as he can. What I don't get about Dickens (and Victorian literature in general) is how a comic relief female character or a villain female character can be fascinating, well-written, and likeable, but the "heroine" is by necessity a twit. It's like virtuous girls aren't permitted to have personality. It's annoying.

[Dead & Messed Up]

I don't think I've read any Dickens as an adult. I should fix that asap. Which is to say, later.

I did just finish How to Be Good by Nick Hornby, and I thought that, apart from an ending that deflates too quickly, the book was a sharp look at a woman named Katie who has no conception of how awful she can be.

The story's that her misanthropic husband has a come-to-Jesus moment courtesy of a bum with healing powers (aged - huh - 32), and now she's trying to decide how to live the right way. Hornby's savvy in leaving her bad arguments present but uncriticized. For example, she constantly claims that she is good because she's a doctor, and nobody ever checks her on the bank she makes. And there are other nice ambiguities. After staving off divorce, she and her husband try to make right with each other, but he makes family decisions without consulting anybody, so convinced is he that he's doing the "right thing."

I don't love the novel (it's not as immediately sympathetic as High Fidelity... or as high-concept as A Long Way Down), but I admire how it never offers a final judgment of who's morally upright, instead suggesting that our sense of "goodness" comes more from how we compare ourselves against others, instead of some objective measure of the works we do. Kinda weird that the healing aspect plays a relatively minor role, but not entirely out of keeping with Katie's general efforts to ignore her husband's newfound charity.

There's a brief mention of a record store worker named Dick, a nice nod to High Fidelity (and I've read that the bum-healer made an appearance in A Long Way Down).

[Lucky]

Mara, I understand your critique on Sweet Tooth, but its bland taste throughout the meat of the novel sweetened to a memorable palate-shifting finish. I was pleasantly unspoiled and found the final chapter so rewarding that it allowed me to be forgiving of the passive journey of our boring protagonist. McEwan always has a mastery of the psychology of his characters so blank mandrifter Serena ended up a hearty disappointment. However, I am running with the thematic mirror at the end, and reflection on the "how's" and "why's" make the novel more interesting in retrospect than during the actual read. Its successes are minor and only appreciated if you can get over what some may call a "cheap shot", but I found that clincher letter a doozy. Curiously, Serena's mindset would have been most interesting in that moment and we don't even get a glimpse there.

I know your trepidations, but I still suggest you check out On Chesil Beach. From what I recall, it's very short. I believe I finished it during a plane ride.

[dreamdead]

About a third through Edith Wharton's Summer. It's so odd to read a novel from her where the characters are not overtly privileged or educated. In The House of Mirth, those slights of speech (slipping into the vernacular) signaled a slight distaste for these lower-class souls, but here everyone feels equally lacking in education save for the more proper outsider who will likely affect our protagonist's moral education. This quality just denaturalizes the whole reading experience, making me hesitate as to whether Wharton herself is mocking the whole community or empathetically acknowledging that she knows that not everyone is equally adept at the rites of education and learning. All this to say that I'm not sure if my predispositions about Wharton's thematic interests is unfairly coloring my perception of this text.

[Mara]

Mara, if you haven't read it yet, check out 84, Charing Cross Road by Helene Hanff. It's a reprinting of correspondence from 1950-69 between a poor American script writer and a British bookseller who locates the editions that she requests. It's marvelous, full of personality, and only about an hour read. Delightful and truly heart-touching.

By the way, I did read this over my vacation and found it totally charming. Book lovers unite!

[Mara]

Eleanor & Park is the best YA book I read in the last year, and one of the best books, period. This is a must-read about censorship of the novel through the lens of the novelist.

http://the-toast.net/2013/09/17/chat-rainbow-rowell-love-censorship/

[dreamdead]

By the way, I did read this over my vacation and found it totally charming. Book lovers unite!

Yay! Sarah read it in one evening and immediately declared that I'd love it. It's true that anyone ensconced with the pleasure of reading is really likely to see elements of themselves in the dialogue shared back and forth--I thought of you pretty much after finishing. I have no idea how it would work as a film, but I think this one deserves to stay on just the level of words.

We have Eleanor & Park as a book-on-tape, but that interview makes me more interested. Will have to see about our library having it since they don't have a copy of Gone Girl yet... :(

[dreamdead]

National Book Award longlist (http://shelf-life.ew.com/2013/09/19/national-book-award-longlist-fiction/). Pynchon, Kushner, McDermott, and Saunders all interest me. Anyone read any of these?

[dreamdead]

Finished out Wharton's book Summer. The book achieves some impressive narrative gymnastics for 1918, namely making us root for Charity to end up with her longtime male guardian who'd tried to sleep with her while drunk and mourning his deceased wife. And that's nothing to sneeze at. Wharton works overtime to reshape Charity's perspective on Harney, who romances and sleeps with her, so that his initial devotedness is revealed to be very much conditioned through silence and deprivation. That said, it's still the weakest of the Wharton books I've done.

Back to Marilynne Robinson's Gilead, which had been picking up steam.

[D_Davis]

Atwood on King's newest, Doctor Sleep. (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/22/books/review/stephen-kings-shining-sequel-doctor-sleep.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0)

[Winston*]

What I don't get about Dickens (and Victorian literature in general) is how a comic relief female character or a villain female character can be fascinating, well-written, and likeable, but the "heroine" is by necessity a twit. It's like virtuous girls aren't permitted to have personality. It's annoying.
Estella Havisham?

[Dead & Messed Up]

Atwood on King's newest, Doctor Sleep. (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/22/books/review/stephen-kings-shining-sequel-doctor-sleep.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0)

That was an excellent read.

[Mara]

Estella Havisham?

She's an interesting semi-exception. She certainly has a personality, but at the same time she's a borderline villain. She's not a "good girl," anyway.

[D_Davis]

October 16th.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-sGb1hpUurGs/UhJo9yKkgSI/AAAAAAAAAW0/BAwTMBHrsSw/s1600/chomu_member_amazon.jpg


Member is the account of how Thanks (the narrator) "accidentally recruited" himself into "the cosmic game of Chorncendantra." On a night stroll, he finds himself behind another walker who apparently dies and recovers. The bag carried by the unknown Lazarus passes into his possession. Investigating, he discovers that it contains a dimensional hole to another world. By accident or design, as bearer of the bag, he is now a courier, carrying messages in a cosmos-wide game he does not understand. Arriving at "the Artifact" (a vast and never-finished machine in the form of a world-dividing wall that manufactures time), Thanks attempts to decipher his own role in the game, to determine whether he can ever become, or already is, or never will be, a member.

[D_Davis]

That was an excellent read.

Yeah. In general, Doctor Sleep is getting very good, and thoughtful, reviews. I'll start it after I finish Wolves of the Calla.

[Grouchy]

That's the sequel to The Shining, right? I want.

[D_Davis]

Yep.

[D_Davis]

Looks like Member is releasing early - my copy shipped today.

Anticipating a new Cisco novel is always the greatest feeling.

[dreamdead]

Beginning Amanda Ripley's nonfiction The Smartest Kids in the World: And How They Got That Way, about countries like Finland, Poland, and South Korea's educational systems, and what American exchange kids experience when they integrate into those systems. It's less dense on quoting than Wendy Moore's nonfiction, but I expect that once it starts tackling the logic of why those countries succeed that it'll have great coverage...

[Mysterious Dude]

I keep hearing about how great Finland's education system is, but it seems to me that Finland has little to show for it, other than Angry Birds.

[D_Davis]

I'm still not quite sure how I got the new Michael Cisco book today.

The edition notice says it was (will be) published in October of 2013, and all of the websites still say it's coming out mid October.

It's not an ARC.

[Winston*]

Was pretty skeptical for the first 100 pages or so, but Wolf Hall ended up being very good.

[D_Davis]

Was pretty skeptical for the first 100 pages or so, but Wolf Hall ended up being very good.

I've been meaning to check that out; I've heard good things.

[Winston*]

I've been meaning to check that out; I've heard good things.

It does a great job placing you in this historical world and mindset.

[D_Davis]

Are you going to read the sequel? Isn't it a trilogy?

[Winston*]

Yeah, probably next year. I've been told it's better than the first. Pretty sure I already know how Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn's marriage ends up, so I don't really have the itch to carry on right away to see how things turn out.

Both books won the Booker, which is both impressive and feels depressingly safe of the jury. Shine a light on an unknown.

[dreamdead]

I keep hearing about how great Finland's education system is, but it seems to me that Finland has little to show for it, other than Angry Birds.

The Ripley book The Smartest Kids in the World is worth a read if you're at all interested in the education system, and it does explain Finland's success (briefly, standardized tests administered at intervals once students are 16, and keeping kids out of vocational tracks until that point so that they're all equally motivated to truly learn). It underscores how teacher autonomy, rigor, and the demand of excellence can cut through student apathy and monotony. Specifically, it highlights how Finland and South Korea both excel, but records how little happiness any of these nations feel about their educational status.

[D_Davis]

Most importantly, though, are the kids happy? Do they have good childhoods, where they can play and be kids, or is school so important that they don't have that opportunity?

[D_Davis]

Read the first 10 pages of the new Michael Cisco yesterday. Not quite sure where to talk about this book. It's not quite SF, not quite weird fiction, and not quite general lit. I think he's fully embraced the realms of magical realism with this one. It's already blowing my mind, and he's once again proving to be heads and shoulders above any other author I read in terms of prose, style, and substance. I get the sense that this one is somewhat connected thematically to The Narrator and Celebrant, which makes sense, because his previous group of books (The Divinity Student, The Tyrant, The Traitor, and The Great Lover) were all connected.

The book itself is on the longer side, again, for Cisco, at just about 360 pages. And from what I gather, the entire thing is one continuous tracking shot, never once breaking away from the main character's (his name is Thanks) POV. Cisco has already played a great deal with language and with the form of the novel itself, and, once again, the narrator is fully aware of himself being in a book, giving the reader instructions and permission to skip things.

Hopefully Cisco soon reaches the same level of critical and reader praise as his peers, namely Kafka and Calvino. I like him a great deal more than those two authors, and I'm really looking forward to my time spent with his newest - Member.

[Mara]

The most-hyped YA book of this year is Samantha Shannon's The Bone Season, a debut novel and the first in a seven-part series. It's already being made into a film and every industry outlet has been salivating over it and flogging it half to death.

I'm on page 144 out of 452 and so far it's kind of a chore.

[ledfloyd]

National Book Award longlist (http://shelf-life.ew.com/2013/09/19/national-book-award-longlist-fiction/). Pynchon, Kushner, McDermott, and Saunders all interest me. Anyone read any of these?
The Saunders book is fantastic. I can't recommend it highly enough, especially the last four stories in the book.

Edit: Oh yeah, I initially came in here to see if anyone had read the new Jonathan Lethem book yet.

[dreamdead]

The most-hyped YA book of this year is Samantha Shannon's The Bone Season, a debut novel and the first in a seven-part series. It's already being made into a film and every industry outlet has been salivating over it and flogging it half to death.

I'm on page 144 out of 452 and so far it's kind of a chore.

Found this review (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/27/books/samantha-shannons-fantasy-novel-the-bone-season.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0)from the NYTimes relevant. We're very much in a author-hype era with books, and having an attractive young female author matters more than the substance of her writing. While the review maybe overemphasizes that fact, I found a great deal of truth in it.

[Mara]

Found this review (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/27/books/samantha-shannons-fantasy-novel-the-bone-season.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0)from the NYTimes relevant. We're very much in a author-hype era with books, and having an attractive young female author matters more than the substance of her writing. While the review maybe overemphasizes that fact, I found a great deal of truth in it.

Good write-up, and does a decent job of explaining why the hype may be hurting. (It raised my expectations, which have been rather disappointed.)

Also, she's 21? That unfortunately explains some things.

[Dead & Messed Up]

This Huck Finn book is pretty good. Hope this Twain guy doesn't botch it up.

[Kurosawa Fan]

This Huck Finn book is pretty good. Hope this Twain guy doesn't botch it up.

He does.

[Dead & Messed Up]

He does.

Tarnation! I knew he'd go an' mess up the blamed endin'!

[Kurosawa Fan]

Tarnation! I knew he'd go an' mess up the blamed endin'!

Have you finished?

[Dead & Messed Up]

Have you finished?

Nah, I'm jus'n pass the part when Huck can't bring hisself to tell them skiffers that Jim be black, so he lie and say Jim barely be sick at all. Now why he go and do a thing like that?

I'm so sorry. Maybe a third of the way through. I'll be thinking in dialect for weeks. Consarn it.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Nah, I'm jus'n pass the part when Huck can't bring hisself to tell them skiffers that Jim be black, so he lie and say Jim barely be sick at all. Now why he go and do a thing like that?

I'm so sorry. Maybe a third of the way through. I'll be thinking in dialect for weeks. Consarn it.

:lol:

Well, many disagree with me, obviously, but I'll be anxious to discuss it when you finish.

[Mara]

Had a good weekend for books.

Patrick Ness' More Than This is definitely one of the best YA books I've read this year. Creepy, post-modern, and with a completely unique narrative structure that begins with the main character's death, and then follows him as he wakes up in a deserted world that looks like-- and might be-- his childhood home. This is a good example of how out-of-the-box YA has become in the last several years. A decade ago, something like this would have been considered too damn weird to print.

I am also officially in love with Rainbow Rowell. I have read three books by her this year, and each time my life plans went out the window as I cancelled everything to finish them. I've already enthused about Eleanor & Park, which is still probably the best book I read this year. I then dug up her debut novel, an adult work called The Attachments which I also really enjoyed despite it having a somewhat creepy premise.

But this weekend I read Fangirl, her latest work, and I fell totally in love all over again. It might actually fit into the ugliest, worse, and most-maligned genre out there: the dreaded New Adult. But I don't want to call it that, because this book was wonderful and New Adult sucks.

Fangirl follows a socially awkward, anxious 18-year-old through her first year of college. It does a good job of showing how displaced she is by this change and how she struggles to define herself in a completely new environment. One of a set of twins, she is hurt and confused by her twin emotionally pulling away throughout the year, and her father (now alone) begins to spiral in his struggle with mental wellness.

Mostly, Cath defines herself online. She is a fan-- a mega-fan, a completely obsessed fan-- of Simon Snow, a Harry Potter-esque series. Cath writes slash fiction between the main character and his nemesis (thank Harry and Draco, if they were roommates and Draco was a vampire.) Her fiction is very popular, getting tens of thousands of hits per chapter, and she is so prolific that she posts thousands of words per day. This is the one area of her life where Cath has some control, and feels comfortable and happy.

There is a love story, because Rowell for some reason writes the best love stories of all the love stories. I'm not sure what it is, because most of the love stories I've read in the last several years just get a big eye-roll from me, but when Rowell talks about love, I am THERE. I am INVESTED. I am SWOONY and all those other things that I don't expect to be.

I want Rainbow Rowell to be my best friend.

[dreamdead]

Whenever I finish Gone Girl and Younghill Kang's The Grass Roof (first Korean American writer, yo!), I expect that I'll start one of Rowell's books. Keep waffling between her newest and E&P. I suspect that the unlikely book banning will lead to me checking out E&P first, though Fangirl seems interesting as a concept.

[Mara]

Keep waffling between her newest and E&P. I suspect that the unlikely book banning will lead to me checking out E&P first, though Fangirl seems interesting as a concept.

I'd really go with Eleanor & Park. It's not a book that is about what it is about. (As in, the plot is not really what makes it great.)

[TGM]

Patrick Ness' More Than This is definitely one of the best YA books I've read this year. Creepy, post-modern, and with a completely unique narrative structure that begins with the main character's death, and then follows him as he wakes up in a deserted world that looks like-- and might be-- his childhood home. This is a good example of how out-of-the-box YA has become in the last several years. A decade ago, something like this would have been considered too damn weird to print.

I really liked the first part of the story, before it annoyingly becomes a complete rip-off of The Matrix. But I held out hope and pretty much spent the remainder of the book just hoping for there to truly be "more than this" to it, yet that wasn't to be. In the end, it really was just a Matrix rip-off. And what makes it more disappointing is that all of Patrick Ness' other novels are so rich in originality and creativity, so to see this book completely lack that was a huge let down.

If you haven't yet, though, and you're a fan of his writing style, I HIGHLY recommend giving the Chaos Walking trilogy and A Monster Calls a read. Book 1 of Chaos Walking, The Knife of Never Letting Go, truly struck me with the way Ness really takes advantage of the novel format in his with his formatting structure, not to mention the story is just oozing with original ideas, and it actually utilizes a clever, subtle take on pretty much the same subject and ideas he attempted to tackle in More Than This, as opposed to the subtle as a rock to the head approach taken by More Than This.

And A Monster Calls is truly just a beautiful piece, a modern work of art that is surely destined to become a literary classic over time. A must read, and one that you won't be able to put down till its done. Seriously, it usually takes me weeks to finish a book, and I finished A Monster Calls in one sitting.

[Mara]

I tried to read The Knife of Never Letting Go and I found it incredibly frustrating. I felt like he was building the entire story around secrets that were obvious and, frankly, not very shocking. I liked his style, but not the plot. For me, More Than This (although, yes, definitely has things in common with The Matrix) resounded a little bit more.

I think I will check out A Monster Calls, though.

[Lucky]

Finished McCarthy's The Road. Bleak. A bit draining. Appreciated the writing style.

Decided to give Gaiman another shot and am halfway through The Ocean at the End of the Lane. Good so far, we'll see if it can resolve into something worthwhile.

[dreamdead]

Hey ledfloyd,

I'm halfway through George Saunders' Tenth of December and was curious what you think of the collection (I believe you mentioned elsewhere that you'd grabbed it up at some point). It's my first exposure to Saunders' short stories, and there's some really interesting playfulness going on with language and theme, but I'm interested in what stories here you found the best...

[D_Davis]

So I'm sure a lot of you are aware of how much I love Michael Cisco - IMO, he's by far the best writing working within the realms of literary horror today. Since his first novel, The Divinity Student, he's positioned himself to be the modern Kafka, and is an unparalleled master of mood and atmosphere, of the surreal and the bizarre.

If you'd like to experience his work, his aforementioned first novel has been serialized online, free to read:

http://weirdfictionreview.com/2013/09/the-divinity-student-part-one/

And it mostly (only) gets better from there.

[Mara]

I'm coming down as very ambivalent about Don Quixote. I really liked the first half, which was warm and dream-like in its examination of idealism, adventure, and romance. Still, I couldn't shake an uneasiness that at heart, this is a book about a mentally ill old man getting the crap kicked out of him every other page. He's spitting out teeth, and I get the feeling we're supposed to think it's funny.

The second half has been much more problematic. In the first half, the parts that were funny and charming worked because it was about a man who mistook everyday life for an adventure, and also managed to slowly ensnare those around him into the same way of thinking.

But the second half has been focusing mostly on this rich Duke and Duchess who think it's funny to deliberately set up adventures for Don Quixote, and then laughing at him when he falls for it. And it's not harmless stuff-- both Quixote and Panza have been physically hurt (one might almost say, tortured), terrified, humiliated, starved, and mocked. These people are seriously assholes. Am I supposed to think it's funny, or am supposed to be rooting that they get trampled by horses? It's just so endlessly awful.

[Grouchy]

Well... It is a comedic book. It's a satire of chivalric literature. So yes, that Quijote and Sancho get their asses kicked is part of the satire. They're anti-heroes.

But also, it's a novel that strikes various tones. While Quijote's misadventures are funny, the characters they encounter and the stories-within-the-story they get to hear often have a lot of dramatic depth to them. It's an inmense book. Even if you don't share Cervantes sense of humor there's more to it than that. Besides, they get hurt, sure, but they're a bit like Looney Tunes characters in that sense - they're always back in the saddle for the next chapter.

I would add something else... but I don't want to spoil the ending.

[Mara]

The stories within the stories have been great.

I guess I'd be more comfortable if there was a sense that these people who are mocking/torturing Quixote are going to be confronted with their bad behavior.

[Grouchy]

Well, you also gotta realize, Cervantes had a pretty rough life. He was made a prisoner of war and imprisoned and tortured for five years. His captors asked the Duke of Sessa for ransom money, but the noble man didn't think the life of Cervantes was worth all that dough. His optimism and belief in divine justice might have taken a bit of a blow as a result.

Anyway, I'm just glad you're reading it! Everybody should read that book at least once.

[dreamdead]

Finished Rainbow Rowell's Eleanor and Park, which I listened to on drives to and from Tulsa this past week and a half. Really wonderful and evocative in a YA temperament, with full-fledged characters across the board (though I'm bewildered how Park's mother retains no Korean-influenced culture beyond dropped words--no cuisine or nothing), and powerful in its study of attraction and peace found in relationships. A lot of the relational/sexual longing that Park and Eleanor experience--the way that language hyperbolizes every act when done in the company of another--felt incredibly true. The biggest sadness came in the final moments, when Eleanor has successfully fled her family background and determines that the separation between she and Park warrants a full separation. In turn, that ending line is killer, reawakening the kernel of romance.

Definitely will get to Fangirl sometime this year now. Thanks for the praise, Mara--doubt I'd have listened to it otherwise.

Next up is a study of some of Alice Munro's short stories, this one The Moons of Jupiter collection.

[Lucky]

Decided to give Gaiman another shot and am halfway through The Ocean at the End of the Lane. Good so far, we'll see if it can resolve into something worthwhile.

This is the first Gaiman that I enjoyed throughout. I wish he would branch out away from the fantasy realm in a future work, because I'm on board with his writing style but often find myself disconnected and a bit lost when he loosens the grip on reality. Fortunately, it kind of works to his advantage and fits the themes of this novel, which makes it easy for me not to dwell on the negative. My favorite passages were the expertly crafted expositions of comfort at the Hempstock house--took me back to my own childhood memories of my grandmother's. And now I wonder how much I've embellished those in my head.

[Mara]

Finished Rainbow Rowell's Eleanor and Park, which I listened to on drives to and from Tulsa this past week and a half. Really wonderful and evocative in a YA temperament, with full-fledged characters across the board (though I'm bewildered how Park's mother retains no Korean-influenced culture beyond dropped words--no cuisine or nothing), and powerful in its study of attraction and peace found in relationships. A lot of the relational/sexual longing that Park and Eleanor experience--the way that language hyperbolizes every act when done in the company of another--felt incredibly true. The biggest sadness came in the final moments, when Eleanor has successfully fled her family background and determines that the separation between she and Park warrants a full separation. In turn, that ending line is killer, reawakening the kernel of romance.

I'm so glad you liked it. I agree that Park's mother is a little problematic, but that was a footnote to how much I loved the characters. I'm probably showing my age, but I wanted so badly to take Eleanor home and take care of her forever. Poor baby.

Regarding Don Quixote, I've moved beyond the Duke and the Duchess, who were never confronted with what horrible people they were, and are never criticized by the text. However, I found myself enjoying the book again more with them out of the picture, and came across this passage:

"... jests that give pain are no jests, and no sport is worth anything if it hurts another."

Thanks for that.

[dreamdead]

I'm so glad you liked it. I agree that Park's mother is a little problematic, but that was a footnote to how much I loved the characters. I'm probably showing my age, but I wanted so badly to take Eleanor home and take care of her forever. Poor baby.


Indeed. Eleanor was so well conceived, and any flaws she exhibited felt so attuned to her environmental surroundings. I realized after the fact that Rowell never really grapples with how Eleanor's mother deals with her daughter's letter (and the indictment of Richie that it contains). That element feels strangely unwrapped up--though the mother is certainly tied to Richie in many ways, I'm a little taken aback that the text doesn't record any fallout between the mother and Richie on that front. Still, a remarkably well written and developed book.

[dreamdead]

Annnnnnnnd, finished Rowell's Fangirl in a day. I'm not overly interested in the New Adult genre as a whole, but I could stay in Rowells's worlds for a long time. Her writing and emotional understanding are impeccable. And now the wait for her 2014 book begins.

[Mara]

Annnnnnnnd, finished Rowell's Fangirl in a day. I'm not overly interested in the New Adult genre as a whole, but I could stay in Rowells's worlds for a long time. Her writing and emotional understanding are impeccable. And now the wait for her 2014 book begins.

Love it. I just think that she and I should be friends, you know? Like, I read her writing and I want to know her personally.

I did read her only book written specifically for an adult audience (The Attachments) and it was solid, but her weakest. Character and emotional truth are her strengths, and they were there, but the premise was... well, creepy.

[Mara]

Finished up Don Quixote and my final reaction is positive. The horrible Duke and Duchess were reintroduced, and we were given a small concession moment, sort of "Who is the greater fool?"

I must say that my favorite part of the book was Panza. What could have been a silly, throwaway character was instead compassionate, intelligent, shrewd, and extremely funny. He was really the most human person in the book.

On to Atwood's Maddadam.

[Mara]

I also read all of Elizabeth Smart's My Story last night, and NIGHTMARES. NIGHTMARES ALL FREAKING NIGHT. HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE NIGHTMARES.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Finished Rainbow Rowell's Eleanor and Park, which I listened to on drives to and from Tulsa this past week and a half. Really wonderful and evocative in a YA temperament, with full-fledged characters across the board (though I'm bewildered how Park's mother retains no Korean-influenced culture beyond dropped words--no cuisine or nothing), and powerful in its study of attraction and peace found in relationships. A lot of the relational/sexual longing that Park and Eleanor experience--the way that language hyperbolizes every act when done in the company of another--felt incredibly true. The biggest sadness came in the final moments, when Eleanor has successfully fled her family background and determines that the separation between she and Park warrants a full separation. In turn, that ending line is killer, reawakening the kernel of romance.


Started Eleanor & Park last night around 6:00. Finished it about a half hour ago. That alone speaks to the quality of the story Rowell has crafted. I do have some reservations. At times, I think Rowell stooped to cartoonish archetypes rather than the full-fledged characters you experienced, particularly in regards to Park's mother, Eleanor's mother, but most egregiously in regards to the step-father. It's another in a long line of evil step-parent narratives, which cheapens the experience. I think Rowell created two characters and an emotional link between them that was strong enough not to warrant cheap tricks to pull emotional strings. I'm all for broken family and emotional distress as an impediment for young lovers, but I would have liked to see it portrayed with a bit more care. I'm also troubled by the assertion the novel seems to imply that there is a true love out there for people (this seems heavily implied by Park on the trip to Minnesota when thinking back on his own parents and their meeting). Maybe it can be chalked up to the naiveté and youth of Park, rather than any motivation on the part of Rowell, but it rubbed me the wrong way. It's a poor message to convey to young readers. I know that Rowell is modernizing the fairy tale here, and so there are going to be corollaries, but I wish that message had been left behind.

Reservations aside, Rowell absolutely nails that feeling of first love while also creating a harrowing, desperate situation for her protagonists to overcome. I'm in complete agreement about the conclusion of the book. Equal parts heartbreaking and uplifting as I consumed the final lines.

[Winston*]

Holy shit @ the Namibia chapter of V.

[Lucky]

The Reason I Jump is a curious walk in unfamiliar shoes, and I imagine it's a godsend for those in daily contact with an autistic person. Even if you're not, it's a worthy quick read. A few of the passages are affecting and relative to any human being. The majority of the novel is a Q&A with a 13 year old Japanese autistic boy, but it sprinkles a few of his brief stories--near parables--in as well. There's one in particular about a dancer that I found pretty profound for a teenager.

[Mara]

Weird-- I just started very book for my book group.

[Lucky]

Jon Stewart recently made a hooplah over it on his show. It's probably less of a coincidence than you imagine.

[dreamdead]

I've forgotten how mesmerizing quality short stories can be. George Saunders's recent collection was generally solid, and the Alice Munro collection The Moons of Jupiter is slow-going, but thoroughly worth it. Her study of the small detail is excellent, and the character developments that accrue through small revelations are astounding. Can't wait to dig into more of the collection.

[D_Davis]

Anyone read or interested in reading S?

I'm usually very skeptical of these kinds of big, multi-media (stop with the book trailers already!), cross-over hype books, but S looks and sounds fascinating. I've also been meaning to check out The Surf Guru from the main author.

Anyhow, have it on order and it should be arriving tomorrow.

[D_Davis]

What Stephen King Isn't (http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/books/2013/10/what-stephen-king-isnt.html)

[Hugh_Grant]

S was brought up in the keynote speech at a recent conference. I research genre theory and multimodal compositions, so on that level I'm interested. A friend/colleague is having her students put together book trailers. :)

[D_Davis]

Very cool on the S front. :)

I'm digging the fact that there are a few (many?) fake websites and blogs set up to further the mysterious qualities of S. It's almost like an ARG kind of thing.

Looking forward to reading it. I'll start it after I finish Doctor Sleep, which is turning out to be incredible. It's totally in the same space as Insomnia.

[D_Davis]

I didn't know there were all kinds of inserts and shit in S.

It'll definitely be a read-at-home book, because there's lots of stuff to get lost.

This is also one of those books we've been talking about in the comic book thread, a thing that needs to be read in paper-book form, a marriage of form and function that would have to be very different in a e-format. It could still work as an interactive e-book, but it would be a very different experience.

[Mara]

Ooh, like Griffin and Sabine. That is a book that could not be an e-book.

[D_Davis]

Ooh, like Griffin and Sabine. That is a book that could not be an e-book.

Yep - but even more so. Like G&S on steroids, and acid, and goof balls. Like David Lynch...on acid!

There's even a decoder ring for something, and maps, post cards, news paper articles, letters, book marks, photo copies....

It's pretty cool. Great value, too. Don't know how they kept the price at $35 considering the production values, and considering that normal big hardcover books already cost near $30.

[dreamdead]

Finished out the Alice Munro collection The Moons of Jupiter. Addictive little stories of gender and aging amidst changing cultural conditions, and fully developed and surprising throughout. Have another collection of hers that I'll do soon, but for now onto Don Lee's Wrack and Ruin, which is quietly exciting so far.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I finished The Marian Chronicles last night. Anyone who hasn't read that novel is doing themselves a disservice. What a phenomenal collection of stories. It lends itself to so many fascinating interpretations on political, environmental, scientific, and theological levels that I could talk about it forever. It's the first time since leaving school that I've wanted to sit down and write about a novel. Just brilliant, inspiring stuff.


Anyone read or interested in reading S?

I'm usually very skeptical of these kinds of big, multi-media (stop with the book trailers already!), cross-over hype books, but S looks and sounds fascinating. I've also been meaning to check out The Surf Guru from the main author.

Anyhow, have it on order and it should be arriving tomorrow.

Just started reading this last night. Got about 40 pages through. So far... it's awful. I mean reeeeaaaaaaalllly bad. I'll give it another 60 pages to win me over, but it's such an inauthentic experience thus far. The "novel" that exists between the margin and footnotes, written by a mysterious recluse whose identity was never discovered, is championed throughout as the work of a genius (and called his capstone work) and it's just not good. It lacks subtlety and finesse. It's just a clumsy, run of the mill mystery novel through the first 40 pages. That would be excusable, but thus far the margin notes between the two lit students are just unforgivably bad. Perhaps it's a bit unfair because I'm a literature major, but their insights into the text are laughably obvious. On top of that, their budding romance as they write notes back and forth in the book aren't the least bit convincing (not to mention redundant; I'm through 40 pages and I'm pretty sure Jen has called Eric "condescending" five times already) nor compelling. And those extras, such as the newspaper articles and letters? Completely unnecessary right now. They bring nothing to the experience. In fact, they've been a pain in the ass, because they keep falling out as I'm reading.

It was a complete slog last night. I'm going to push through for a while longer because it was a birthday gift from my wife, but it would have to DRASTICALLY improve for me to finish it at this point.

[D_Davis]

Martian Chronicles is indeed a classic - totally brilliant. Dark, scary, filled with terror and paranoia. I'd almost classify it more as horror than SF. Like Sturgeon, Bradbury uses genre conventions and tropes to really poke at the things that make us all human.

Too bad about S. I'm not anticipating much, except for I love the concept and the look of the thing. We'll see if I agree with you or not.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Yeah, I give up. 20 more pages and I'm hating it more and more with every page, and it feels like such a massive waste of time. Moving on to something else.

[D_Davis]

Good for you! Quit early, quit often, move on to something you might like more.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Now that I talked it up so much... anyone want to buy my copy? $20 is the going rate. In flawless condition. First come, first serve.

[Hugh_Grant]

KF, would you take 2000 Indonesian rupiah? :)

(Seriously, I'll take it off your hands. Let me know the price.)

[D_Davis]

Just sold the rest of my unwanted books (about 9 paper boxes full), board games and video games to Half Price books. Make a little more than I was expecting. All the employees told me it was the best haul they've ever seen brought into the store, in terms of the quality of titles.

Feels so good to have that stuff gone.

[Mara]

Burial Rites by Hannah Kent was an unexpected surprise. I have no memory of it getting on my reading list, but I picked it up from the library and was pretty much blown away. It's an ugly and bleak retelling of the last person executed in Iceland-- a woman named Agnes Magnusdottir in 1830. Kent's prose manages to be both lyrical and spare, and I dare you to read the book and not feel physically cold.

[dreamdead]

Finished out Ha Jin's story collection A Good Fall (generally good) and Don Lee's Wrack and Ruin (diverting but definitely Lee's least interesting). The latter has some good engagement with identity issues and the role of multicultural creative authors, but much of it lacks an actually interesting lead, as thirty-year-olds behaving like man-children are old to me.

Hoping for James McBride's national book award winning The Good Lord Bird to give me a better streak after some decent if middling fare.

[Dead & Messed Up]

This Huck Finn book is pretty good. Hope this Twain guy doesn't botch it up.


He does.

Dammit, KF. You were right. Tom Sawyer's sudden arrival turned into him directing the story (Huck follows his lead the whole way), and the revelation that Jim was about to be freed anyway renders the whole caper moot. The former is kinda maddening after Huck's personal growth under the Duke and King and his perfect announcement of "All right then, I'll go to hell!"

Apart from that, the book was excellent. I thought my favorite bits would be the moments with them just hanging on the raft, shooting the breeze, but I also loved how the Duke and King turned the book on its head. Their shenanigans are like the worst possible version of Huck's shenanigans (faking their way 'cross the country, swindlin' folk), so it was cool watching Huck play off them and gain a better sense of self.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Forgot to say, the Blackstone Audio book-on-CD was solid. Tom Parker did a fine job narrating, more than comfortable in the dialect.

Now. On to Kafka's The Trial. First Kafka, so excite.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Dammit, KF. You were right. Tom Sawyer's sudden arrival turned into him directing the story (Huck follows his lead the whole way), and the revelation that Jim was about to be freed anyway renders the whole caper moot. The former is kinda maddening after Huck's personal growth under the Duke and King and his perfect announcement of "All right then, I'll go to hell!"

Apart from that, the book was excellent. I thought my favorite bits would be the moments with them just hanging on the raft, shooting the breeze, but I also loved how the Duke and King turned the book on its head. Their shenanigans are like the worst possible version of Huck's shenanigans (faking their way 'cross the country, swindlin' folk), so it was cool watching Huck play off them and gain a better sense of self.

Agree completely with all of your assessments. I'd add that I didn't care for Jim's transition into helpless wallflower either. Still liked the book, but boy was I disappointed with that final third. Sorry I was right. Just know that I wish I wasn't.

[Dead & Messed Up]

I'd add that I didn't care for Jim's transition into helpless wallflower either.

Yes yes yes. Frustrating and weirdly diminishing after the first half of the book builds him into something much more than an object.

[dreamdead]

Finished Atwood's MaddAddam, which concludes the series that began with Oryx and Crake and the Year of the Flood. It's a bit of a letdown narratively, as it too repeats the chronology of events from a different perspective, but much of the drive and energy from Jimmy or Toby's personal dealings from the earlier books are lessened in the focus on Zeb. Technically, it's still valuable information, fleshing out many of the side-aspects that remained from the series, but Atwood isn't as invested in propelling us forward this time. That's unfortunate, in that the first two books are anywhere from solid to wonderful, but this one doesn't have the same fleetness.

Moving onto Ballard's The Atrocity Exhibition next.

[Irish]

@Dead & @KF:

Missed the Huck Finn conversation. Interesting that Ernest Hemingway once made the exact same criticism as KF did. For my money, all three of you are knuckleheads (albeit each knucklehead is in good company).

I don't think you read Finn for the plot. I think you read it for Twain's use of language. The book is electric. It's alive. There's a rhythm and cadence to Finn that is remarkable and unique. It's an epic poem set in course language.

A strict reading based on the plot is to ignore most of what the book has to offer. Why would anyone do that? It's like criticizing The Marriage of Figaro or Twelth Night for the ridiculousness of their plots, or dinging Pride and Prejudice and A Room with a View for their elaborate romantic machinations. In a more modern sense, it's like saying Henry Miller should stop going off on tangents and telling Jack Kerouac to cut out all those run on sentences. Those could be valid criticisms. But the also miss the larger points in a big way.

Twain borrows from a lot of people with Finn. The structure is straight picaresque; Cervantes, Rabelais, Swift, Voltaire, etc. He's a humorist, and the ending of Finn is him pulling out all the stops, giving his reader gigantic spectacle, and being true to his characters. He's borrowing from popular 19th century theater & a couple of centuries of tradition with all that nonsense about mistaken identities. The trouble is that humor, especially written humor, tends to date very badly. I'm not sure that's Twain's fault. It's probably ours.

@Dead - Jim being freed late in the book, or being free without knowing it, doesn't render the caper moot. It's the entire point Twain was trying to make: that Jim was human from the start. And as a human, he was always free, regardless of what the law, conventional wisdom, and the morality of the day said. The fact that this idea is introduced in an arbitrary, off handed way at the climax of the book only highlights the hypocrisy Twain addressed with Finn.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I still like the novel, but despite what you say, narrative flaws are just that: flaws. Crafting a better narrative would do nothing to diminish the language of Huck. I'm not excusing Twain from his errors just because he's Twain.

Edit: also, I don't think your modern examples don't work. Those are stylistic devices, especially Kerouac. This is poor narrative choices.

[Irish]

I'm not excusing Twain from his errors just because he's Twain.

I'm not asking you to. I'm suggesting that what you think are flaws aren't actually flaws at all, if you consider the novel in context. And that to consider this book solely on the basis of its plot, through 21st century eyes, is to miss its point and its beauty.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I'm not asking you to. I'm suggesting that what you think are flaws aren't actually flaws at all, if you consider the novel in context. And that to consider this book solely on the basis of its plot, through 21st century eyes, is to miss its point and its beauty.

Then further address my complaint. In what way is reverting Huck to a powerless tag along at the mercy of Tom, killing his character arc and grinding an excellent, powerful narrative to a near halt, the point and beauty of the novel? What context am I lacking? How would not making those narrative choices be of detriment to the point and beauty of Twain's work?

[Irish]

Edit: also, I don't think your modern examples don't work. Those are stylistic devices, especially Kerouac. This is poor narrative choices.

Good point about Kerouac, stylistic choices, etc. To counter, I'll offer the entirety of On the Road and, hell, every book he published afterwards.

I was really just pointing out that, in a much larger sense, nobody reads Kerouac or Miller for their plots.

[Irish]

Then further address my complaint. In what way is reverting Huck to a powerless tag along at the mercy of Tom, killing his character arc and grinding an excellent, powerful narrative to a near halt, the point and beauty of the novel?

I'm not sure I'd characterize Huck as a "a powerless tagalong," but I do agree that Twain uses Tom Sawyer to wrench his story out of a tight narrative corner.

He does this because, without Tom, Twain would have to violate Huck's character in order to free Jim.


What context am I lacking?

An understanding that this novel is in the European tradition of picaresques like Gargantua and Pantagruel, Candide, and Gulliver's Travels. All of them were political books that used outsized, ridiculous characters and events to make a point.

Same with Finn. The ending of the book is like the finale to a fireworks show. And amid all the insanity, Twain underlines his themes a couple of times to boot.

I responded as your original posts on this seemed to throw the baby out with the bath water.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I'm not sure I'd characterize Huck as a "a powerless tagalong," but I do agree that Twain uses Tom Sawyer to wrench his story out of a tight narrative corner.

He does this because, without Tom, Twain would have to violate Huck's character in order to free Jim.



An understanding that this novel is in the European tradition of picaresques like Gargantua and Pantagruel, Candide, and Gulliver's Travels. All of them were political books that used outsized, ridiculous characters and events to make a point.

Same with Finn. The ending of the book is like the finale to a fireworks show. And amid all the insanity, Twain underlines his themes a couple of times to boot.

I responded as your original posts on this seemed to throw the baby out with the bath water.

You and I are not going to see eye to eye on this. There is most certainly a paralysis of emotional development in Huck as soon as Tom arrives, and it follows through right to the end of the narrative, with perhaps the only exception being his decision to strike out for the west. If the narrative arrived at a "tight narrative corner," that is Twain's doing and he should not be excused for it. I also don't think the only solution was to bring back Tom.

I lack no context of the picaresque novel. My degree was in literature, and I have a vast amount of experience with the genre, having read Candide, Gulliver's Travels, Don Quixote, Joseph Andrews, Kim, Evelina, etc., all of which qualify to varying degrees. First, Huck Finn isn't a strict picaresque novel. It shares common threads, but also strays from the genre in many ways. Second, it is not a staple of the picaresque novel to derail a character arc, something I cannot be dissuaded that Twain does with Huck when Tom arrives. You can have no character arc, and that occurs in many early examples, but again, Huck most certainly is evolving as a character throughout the journey. What comes before Tom is a beautiful, complex bildungsroman that is at turns thoughtful, funny and elegiac. What comes after Tom's arrival is a reversion, if slightly more mature, to the more simple madcap adventures of Tom's own novel, in which Huck goes from evolving, intelligent leader to stunted, intimidated, passive spectator.

[Dead & Messed Up]

KF's almost exactly where I'm at, Irish, so I don't feel the need to spar with you on that matter.

I will say that - in case this was unclear - the last few chapters by no means ruin the joy, cleverness, etc. of what came before. They frustrated me, but certainly not to the point where I thought the book was poor or sub-par as a whole. It's Huck Finn. It's marvelous 90% of the time. I feel the same way about The Stand, and that's one of my favorite books ever.

[Irish]

You and I are not going to see eye to eye on this.

I wasn't expecting as much.

I'd really argue that Finn is more picaresque than anything else. Because its protagonist doesn't change all that much. Because the way the book is structured. Because of the episodic nature of the chapters.

It's not a Bildungsroman because, even though the character is young and exhibits some small change, he doesn't mature into a "civilized" adult. His arc isn't big enough. Twain makes a point at the end that Huck continues to reject the society in which his hero lives. That's why Huck says he's going to set out for Indian country. It's a rather stinging indictment from both character and author.

Narratively, given story of the initial chapters, the novel has to end with consequence. In other words, the society that Huck and Jim flee from must impose itself on them again, and be defeated, for the book to have any resolution. Because of Huck's interior struggle -- between his heart and social norms -- he can't be the one to break Jim out of captivity. He's just not that guy. That's why Twain uses Tom, a character who is all id, no conscience. The rest of it, it seems to me, is a play toward a wild, out of control entertainment which is very much in keeping with the time this book was written.

Your read on Finn operates almost purely on the surface level. I don't think much of a read that takes a political book and tosses the politics aside, one that excises the larger literary context, or one that ignores the beauty of the language.

PS: Thanks for presenting your official credentials? Good times. I'm glad we got that established at least. :P

[Irish]

I feel the same way about The Stand, and that's one of my favorite books ever.

Much respect, Dead, but I strikes me that you're looking at these works though a single lens. I think that's a mistake.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Because of Huck's interior struggle -- between his heart and social norms -- he can't be the one to break Jim out of captivity. He's just not that guy.

That's what I thought the entire book was building towards. Huck originally leaves with Jim as a lark, he saves Jim with his lie about pox, he's actively defending Jim during the Duke and King shenanigans, he takes this further by confiding in Mary Jane about her slaves' survival, and then he determines to himself that he'll break Jim out captivity, which is the source of the famous line: "All right then, I'll be damned to hell!" He's not that guy? Bro, he is exactly that guy.

[Irish]

That's what I thought the entire book was building towards. Huck originally leaves with Jim as a lark, he saves Jim with his lie about pox, he's actively defending Jim during the Duke and King shenanigans, he takes this further by confiding in Mary Jane about her slaves' survival, and then he determines to himself that he'll break Jim out captivity, which is the source of the famous line: "All right then, I'll be damned to hell!" He's not that guy? Bro, he is exactly that guy.

Yeah, see, I don't know if he is. I think he wants to be that guy -- hence that line. He's trying to build up courage. But his use of "damned to hell" reflects a serious internal conflict. I don't know if he could go through with it, in the end.

Huck still lives very much in the world. He'll abide by the rules because that is what he's been taught to do. There a quiet, reflective, gentle aspect to this character. If Huck were ever truly down and out, and hungry, I think he'd be the guy who would want to steal a loaf of bread, but he'd hesitate. And then think on it a bit.

Tom, on the other hand, doesn't give a shit. He lives consciously outside the world. He'd steal bread for fun, even if he wasn't hungry.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Irish, let's just recap for a second. First, you entered a conversation between DaMU and I in which we were discussing the narrative of Huck Finn. We weren't discussing it on any other level. Narratively, I said it has some failings in the final third. DaMU finished his read and agreed. You then popped in and criticized our opinions by stating that to look at the narrative alone was a mistake. At no point did DaMU or I say that we only cared or were concerned with the narrative. At no point did we say that narrative alone could or would make or break a novel. At no point did either of us maintain that the book wasn't worthy of its reputation or deserve further analysis because we felt Twain made errors with the final third of the novel. We were simply discussing the narrative and our problems with it. You said that the language was the beauty of Huck Finn, that it was like an epic poem set in coarse language. This was never disputed. I maintained that nothing in the language would be lost had Twain not forced Tom Sawyer back into the narrative and reduced Huck to a tagalong.

Now, you disagree with us that the narrative has flaws. You suggested that what we saw as flaws were not flaws, but necessary outcomes for Twain to keep his level of consistency with Huck. You said that I failed to understand the novel in proper context and accused me of seeing it through 21st century eyes only. I asked you for context, and you provided picaresque as the proper genre I needed to familiarize myself with. Again, this discussion is purely about the narrative, since you said my misunderstanding of the perceived narrative flaws was lack of context.

I dropped my credentials, a self-serving gesture in response to your condescending false assumption that I would be unfamiliar with the picaresque genre. I explained that I was very familiar with the genre, having read many picaresque novels and having studied it during my degree. I conceded that Huck Finn was picaresque, though maintained that it strayed from the genre in many distinct ways, but also pointed out that the collapse of a character arc is not a staple of the picaresque, only a complete lack of arc, something that can't be found in Huck Finn, since his character evolves in significant ways prior to Tom's appearance at the end (it also lacks first person narration and has a very distinct plot rather than being purely episodic, making it an example of a more modern picaresque, in which a lack of character arc is often abandoned). I said that the first two-thirds is a bildungsroman, which again is interrupted by Tom's appearance. Again, we are still only talking about the narrative.

You then tell me you think it's picaresque, something I already conceded. You tell me it's not a bildungsroman, and cite the same interruption in Huck's progression that I consider a flaw, and the one I already admitted interfered with the bildungsroman story. So again, we are in agreement (about genre, not about narrative flaw). You then talk about the consequences that must be imposed by book's end (no one in their right mind would argue against this), argue that Huck isn't the person to break Jim out of captivity (something DaMU did an excellent job of refuting with plot-provided evidence), and again maintain that Tom's reappearance is necessary to conclude the novel, something I've disagreed with from the start, and something to which you haven't been able to justify outside of the novel being picaresque and needing a character to have no arc (again, something I disagree with; Kim stands as a great example of a picaresque novel in which the character undergoes a transformation at the end).

You then call my reading of the novel shallow, dismissing my opinion entirely by again making the false assumption that when considering Huck Finn, I disregard history and politics and purely focus on the narrative from a 21st century perspective. That is categorically untrue, though you wouldn't know that since you didn't bother to ask my opinion about anything else before beginning your professorial lecture. You just jumped into a conversation about the narrative, asserted that DaMU and I are reading it wrong, told me even if we did read it that way we are incorrect to call the narrative flawed, provided no evidence to justify that claim beyond our failed understanding of a genre, and hurled vague insults and condescension along the way. All of this, and DaMU and I have both claimed that we hold the book in fairly high regard (something we wouldn't do if we were only focusing on a narrative we find frustrating and somewhat misguided over the final third of the novel).

I guess at this point I'm not sure where the conversation should bother to go, or why I would ever want to continue. You converse as though there's someone on the sideline keeping score, and the win is all that matters. Just as you find little value in my opinion of Huck Finn's narrative, I find little value in that style of conversing. You project opinions onto me that I don't hold (that the narrative is all that matters; that I read only from a 21st century perspective and don't have a firm grasp on the context of genre, that I toss politics aside, that I ignore literary context) in the name of arguing against them. I'm of the opinion that, while literary context, political atmosphere, historical influence and perspective, and mastery of prose all have a place in analysis and all bring value to a work, it is possible to critique each facet individually. In our discussion, DaMU and I were doing just that with the narrative. That doesn't mean we don't consider or value those other facets, and your assertion that I don't is insulting and baseless. Unless you would like to provide more evidence as to why Huck was incapable of saving Jim himself like DaMU did two posts above arguing the contrary (at this point, you've sort of proved DaMU's point about Huck being exactly that man by building courage, only where you see him still building courage and project failure, DaMU and I see courage finally found and action taking place), or actually take the conversation in another direction rather than just assume that I don't and shrug me off as a shallow reader, this is a dead end discussion.

[Irish]

Irish, let's just recap for a second.

Wow. Feeling a little defensive about that English degree, are we? Look at the bright side, KF. At least now you can tell people you've gotten some use out of it.

--

You don't get to call anyone professorial after making such an awkward appeal to authority, and your own authority at that.

--

I wasn't being condescending. You're reading into something that isn't there. I say this because when I'm being condescending I'm usually doing it on purpose, with the intention of causing harm. You might be able to tell that I am struggling not to fall into that mode right now.

--

You'll have to forgive me for assuming that you didn't know what a picaresque novel is. Most people don't. It's not exactly something that comes up in casual conversation. With theory and jargon, I learned long ago it's best to assume someone does not have the same point of reference as I do.

--


First, Huck Finn isn't a strict picaresque novel. It shares common threads, but also strays from the genre in many ways. Second, it is not a staple of the picaresque novel to derail a character arc, something I cannot be dissuaded that Twain does with Huck when Tom arrives. You can have no character arc, and that occurs in many early examples, but again, Huck most certainly is evolving as a character throughout the journey. What comes before Tom is a beautiful, complex bildungsroman ...

You're raising three or four points there, and all of them are arguing against the idea that Finn is a picaresque novel in toto or in part. I don't think I am misreading.

So this, then, doesn't follow at all:


You then tell me you think it's picaresque, something I already conceded.

You didn't concede anything. In fact, you took pains to argue against the point.

--

You're right that I jumped to the conclusion that you were primarily concerned with narrative. I did this because neither you nor Dead discussed any other aspect of the novel. At all. Even after multiple opportunities to do so. Even before I leapt into the conversation. And again afterwords. Not one word.

You can argue this was a hasty conclusion, and I wouldn't necessarily disagree. But by the same token, what other conclusion was I supposed to draw?

--


I'm of the opinion that, while literary context, political atmosphere, historical influence and perspective, and mastery of prose all have a place in analysis and all bring value to a work, it is possible to critique each facet individually.

Yeah. This is the take that I think is deeply flawed. As I said. It invites modern bias and is extremely limited to the point of being meaningless.

--


Unless you would like to provide more evidence as to why Huck was incapable of saving Jim himself like DaMU did two posts above arguing the contrary (at this point, you've sort of proved DaMU's point ...

Oh, dude. Seriously? Why would I even bother?

[Kurosawa Fan]

Wow. Feeling a little defensive about that English degree, are we? Look at the bright side, KF. At least now you can tell people you've gotten some use out of it.

--

You don't get to call anyone professorial after making such an awkward appeal to authority, and your own authority at that.

--

I wasn't being condescending. You're reading into something that isn't there. I say this because when I'm being condescending I'm usually doing it on purpose, with the intention of causing harm. You might be able to tell that I am struggling not to fall into that mode right now.



A) I'm not the slightest bit defensive about my degree. I LOVED my degree. That comment came from the frustration of conversing with you, B) I am not attempting to be authoritative, but rather to point out the ridiculousness of your challenges from the start, and C) if you can't see how condescending you are even before you decide to get snarky, I can't really help you there.



You'll have to forgive me for assuming that you didn't know what a picaresque novel is. Most people don't. It's not exactly something that comes up in casual conversation. With theory and jargon, I learned long ago it's best to assume someone does not have the same point of reference as I do.



You know what works great? A simple comment like, "Are you familiar with the picaresque genre?" Fascinating concept to simply engage another individual in what they know and don't know rather than treat someone right off the bat like they don't understand things in the context that you do. You really can't see how that comes off as condescending? Telling someone they are reading something incorrectly off the back of two throwaway comments? I mean, DaMU and I had one quick back and forth, in which I literally made this single comment about the narrative:

"Agree completely with all of your assessments. I'd add that I didn't care for Jim's transition into helpless wallflower either. Still liked the book, but boy was I disappointed with that final third. Sorry I was right. Just know that I wish I wasn't."

On the back of that, you decided to tell me I didn't understand the context in which it was written and that DaMU, myself, and Hemmingway were all reading it wrong.


You're raising three or four points there, and all of them are arguing against the idea that Finn is a picaresque novel in toto or in part. I don't think I am misreading.

So this, then, doesn't follow at all:



You didn't concede anything. In fact, you took pains to argue against the point.



Nope. I raised a single point there with multiple examples of said point. Huck Finn is not strictly a picaresque novel. It has elements of the picaresque as well as elements of the bildungsroman. This argues against the point, made by you, that Huck can't break Jim free because that would go against one of the staples of the picaresque (unless this wasn't why you brought up picaresque as a way for me to understand the context of the narrative, in which case I don't know why you brought it up). Since Twain already took liberties with the genre (not first person, certainly containing episodes but faaaaaaaar from episodic), he could have continued to do so when it came to Huck's character arc, a character arc he clearly starts, but then cuts off abruptly with the emergence of Tom.



You're right that I jumped to the conclusion that you were primarily concerned with narrative. I did this because neither you nor Dead discussed any other aspect of the novel. At all. Even after multiple opportunities to do so. Even before I leapt into the conversation. And again afterwords. Not one word.

You can argue this was a hasty conclusion, and I wouldn't necessarily disagree. But by the same token, what other conclusion was I supposed to draw?


Again, we had one back and forth before you chimed in. I literally made one post about the novel. Multiple opportunities to do so? Were you part of this conversation, or are there two of you typing and the current you is just catching up? After you chimed in to let me know I was doing it wrong, I asked you what context you thought I was missing. When you told me, I addressed the single point you brought up, picaresque, because as I said, Twain's language isn't affected by completing Huck's arc. You criticized my reading of the novel, I addressed the single specific criticism you gave me. How did I squander multiple opportunities to talk about things other than the narrative? Why would I when your criticism stemmed from my single comment about the narrative?



Yeah. This is the take that I think is deeply flawed. As I said. It invites modern bias and is extremely limited to the point of being meaningless.

Yet you engage in that same level of analysis right here:

"Yeah, see, I don't know if he is. I think he wants to be that guy -- hence that line. He's trying to build up courage. But his use of "damned to hell" reflects a serious internal conflict. I don't know if he could go through with it, in the end.

Huck still lives very much in the world. He'll abide by the rules because that is what he's been taught to do. There a quiet, reflective, gentle aspect to this character. If Huck were ever truly down and out, and hungry, I think he'd be the guy who would want to steal a loaf of bread, but he'd hesitate. And then think on it a bit.

Tom, on the other hand, doesn't give a shit. He lives consciously outside the world. He'd steal bread for fun, even if he wasn't hungry."

How is my comment about Huck's arc any different than your comment here? I see no context beyond what is written on the page in this analysis. Well, I see you projecting beyond what is on the page by predicting Huck's failure in regards to conquering his inner struggles and saving Jim. You are analyzing Huck's character as written by Twain. That's fine. That's normal. It isn't limiting unless you refuse to bring greater context to the table, something I never did, and in fact invited you to do to add to the discussion.



Oh, dude. Seriously? Why would I even bother?

Again, more condescension and snark. In fairness, I deserve it, considering the snide nature of my post. Hard not to cop an attitude when someone tells you there's little value in your assessment of a novel based on a few quick internet posts. But you argue that Huck would fail based on your own projections, not necessarily what's on the page. What's on the page is Huck gradually building confidence and shedding the resistance brought on by his own inner-struggle. That's what we've watched him do for the better half of the novel, which culminates in him recognizing which side of his moral dilemma to land on, choose to sacrifice himself and the salvation of his soul, and go break Jim out of captivity. It's a stirring moment that is then quickly undermined by Tom Sawyer's arrival. You say that's in the name of Twain toying with and then staying true to the picaresque. I'm saying that was a mistake, considering Twain had deviated from the picaresque throughout the novel. Strict adherence to it at this point at the expense of Huck's growth was a massive disappointment.

But this speaks to the greater issue between you and I as far as I'm concerned. You like to argue. You like to be combative. You like to lecture. Your mind often seems completely made up going into a discussion (or at least your language suggests as much), not just here but in many conversations (I'd point to the Roald Dahl/Wes Anderson discussion as another recent example where I just decided to walk away rather than be told over and over again, "You're wrong" when the question posed is so subjective and abstract). You don't really like to converse as a way of seeing another side to a topic. You like to tell people why they're wrong. Your history in your brief time on the site would prove this. This isn't a criticism of you. Plenty of people use the internet for this purpose. In fact, most people do. I'm just not one of them and would rather not engage in a discussion like that.

[dreamdead]

Meantime, I must say that I've enjoyed this discussion, which did make me rethink some of my assumptions about the text. Haven't read Twain's novel since 2002, so I can't join the conversion much, but my reaction is close to Jane Smiley's (http://www.en.utexas.edu/Classes/Bremen/e316k/316kprivate/scans/smiley.html). She's reductive to a point, but I think it mirrors some of what's been stated here already.

[Mara]

Technically, it's still valuable information, fleshing out many of the side-aspects that remained from the series, but Atwood isn't as invested in propelling us forward this time. That's unfortunate, in that the first two books are anywhere from solid to wonderful, but this one doesn't have the same fleetness.


I agree with this observation, even though I think I liked the book more than you did. I felt like the first book focused on the men, the second book focused on the women, and the third book found an integration between the two that worked for me. (And I loved having more time to get to know the Crakers.)

But several times during the book, I found myself thinking, Wow, she really does not care about this apocalypse at all. It's just a story of people.

[Grouchy]

http://www.sticksoftware.com/personal/snarkImages/snark1.gif

[Irish]

I am not attempting to be authoritative, but rather to point out the ridiculousness of your challenges from the start.

:lol: Right.

You have been far more aggressive and obnoxious than I have been. I haven't claimed authority, or called you names, or cast aspersions on your character.

When I asked "Why would I even bother?" I was asking you why, in God's name, would you actually think I'd want to continue this discussion? You got defensive from the start, lept to you own spurious conclusions about my motives, and at this point you're much more interested in calling me an asshole than talking about the book.

It's not very interesting or constructive for either of us. So, really: Just stop.

[TGM]

So hey, for those interested, the e-book version of my novel, Velcro: The Ninja Kat, is available for free this week on Amazon. Check it out. :) http://www.amazon.com/dp/B009304EAU

[Kurosawa Fan]

Nice! I already own a physical copy, but I'll grab the e-book for my son's Kindle.

[TGM]

Nice! I already own a physical copy, but I'll grab the e-book for my son's Kindle.

Oh cool! And that's right, I do recall you winning a copy about a year ago. I don't suppose you've given it a read yet?

[Kurosawa Fan]

I have not, unfortunately. I won it during my busiest semester and didn't get around to reading it. I'll remedy that before the end of the year.

[Mara]

Attn: you do not need a Kindle to be able to read it.

Everyone except me probably knew that, but...

[Dead & Messed Up]

Now. On to Kafka's The Trial. First Kafka, so excite.

After the first half of the audio CD was devoted to discussing translation challenges, I figured this might be better off read than heard.

Switched to Robopocalypse. Fun switch-up after my last two audio CD's were Huck Finn and Wuthering Heights.

[dreamdead]

Read Ballard's The Atrocity Exhibition. I love how thoroughly his writing anticipates postmodern theory, so that it reads remarkably prescient in its thematic coverage here, but this one just isn't nearly as engrossing or powerfully constructed as High Rise. A fair amount of the deconstruction about femininity, pornography, and consumer consumption was where the book succeeded the most. Still have a few other Ballard's that I intend to get to, but this one didn't resonate quite as strongly.

Next up is Wharton's The Custom of the Country...

[D_Davis]

The Atrocity Exhibition is a book I return to every few years, and each time I appreciate it more. I would love an e-version with hyperlinks. Sometimes I'll pick it up just to read a random section.

[Lucky]

Speaking of books...the current page of this thread is a novel in itself. Posting to get to the next page sooner.

[Dead & Messed Up]

I made a "map" of Lovecraft's universe, similar to the one I made for Stephen King's universe earlier this year, and I think it's pretty damn cool.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-WbIIVejsvV0/UqOQKufgIqI/AAAAAAAACTs/fYhudqpK5xg/s1600/MapofLovecraftUniverse.jpg

[D_Davis]

That's great!

Now start with all of the authors in the Lovecraft circle. LOL.

[Dead & Messed Up]

That's great!

Now start with all of the authors in the Lovecraft circle. LOL.

Don't even joke, man. Don't even joke.

[Grouchy]

So it goes.

[dreamdead]

Finished Dalton Trumbo's Johnny Get Your Gun. Surprised by how little coverage this one gets in the universities because the vitriol that it levels against the institutions behind wars is quite effective and thorough. Works best as an examination of how the wounded mediate their pain through memory, longing, and rage. Certainly stands with some of the better modernist texts even if its aim is less personal than societal.

Likely will start some Flannary O'Connor short stories since I've read her anthologized stories but never any of her collections. So A Good Man is Hard to Find it is as I continue deeper into Wharton's The Custom of the Country.

[Mysterious Dude]

Gulliver's Travels is surprisingly vulgar.

[Grouchy]

Gulliver's Travels is surprisingly vulgar.
Yeah, it's awesome, that book.

[DavidSeven]

Anyone have recs for humor books in the vein of Sedaris's stuff? Doesn't necessarily have to be memoir-ish or "non-fiction."

Looking for something funny to mix in with more practical non-fiction stuff I'll be reading over the holidays.

[Mara]

Jenny Lawson's Let's Pretend This Never Happened was quite funny. Ditto Tina Fey's Bossypants. Neither are as literary as Sedaris, but worth reading.

[Mara]

Oh, and I assume that the Hyperbole and a Half book is fantastic, but I haven't read it yet because it's on my Christmas list.

*waits impatiently*

[DavidSeven]

Jenny Lawson's Let's Pretend This Never Happened was quite funny. Ditto Tina Fey's Bossypants. Neither are as literary as Sedaris, but worth reading.

I actually read an e-book sample from Let's Pretend... last night and thought it was pretty hilarious. I do wish the writing was as good as Sedaris's, but I think I'll give it a shot anyway.

Already read Bossypants. Definitely enjoyable.

[Winston*]

Anyone have recs for humor books in the vein of Sedaris's stuff? Doesn't necessarily have to be memoir-ish or "non-fiction."

Looking for something funny to mix in with more practical non-fiction stuff I'll be reading over the holidays.

Read David Rakoff's Don't Get too Comfortable and Half Empty this year. Definitely a funny guy who could spin a phrase. Also a gay This American Life contributor, to tie him closer to Sedaris.

[Winston*]

Jon Ronson also, particularly Them: Adventures with Extremists, which also has the bonus of being fascinating.

[Mara]

Got a couple books I really wanted for Christmas, as well as (surprise!) a Kindle. My book backlog is serious, though-- I have a couple books I need to finish before they're do at the library, and my schedule is pretty tight. I remember fondly when I was in school and could take a full week after Christmas to catch up on all my reading.

[dreamdead]

Finished out Flannery O'Connor's A Good Man is Hard to Find collection. I'd read the title story and "Good Country People" in anthologies before, but I found the collection uniformly solid. Few things will be as wonderfully bitter and critical as her "The Displaced Person," which is as harsh a story as any I've read of O'Connor's. I've read that the Everything that Rises Must Converge collection isn't as excellent, but that will happen sometime early next year.

As it stands, I'm halfway through Wharton's The Custom of the Country--which is wonderful, albeit slow--and Pynchon's Bleeding Edge--which has just been started, but already has a wonderful voice. The rhythm of Pynchon's words already make me want to go back and do Inherent Vice early next year.

[DavidSeven]

Read David Rakoff's Don't Get too Comfortable and Half Empty this year. Definitely a funny guy who could spin a phrase.

Nice. Read the summaries and looks exactly like the type of stuff I was looking for. I'll queue one of these up.

[DavidSeven]

Jenny Lawson's Let's Pretend This Never Happened was quite funny.

Finished this over the holiday. Really funny. It definitely reads like a blog (though I've never read through Lawson's) and is pretty slight, but her wit still comes through. Found it relate-able, even though her upbringing and current lifestyle couldn't be more different than my own.

[Mara]

Just finished up Hyperbole and a Half. As expected, it was excellent.

I do wish that it had been... larger. It was normal book-sized, and I would have liked it to be coffee table book-sized. But that's a minor complaint.

[Grouchy]

Finished Pattern Recognition by William Gibson today. Hell of a book. I can foresee some criticisms of it (conclusion wrapped up a bit too neatly, main character never experiences real danger) but it kept me thrilled to the very last word and the prose is amazing. This is my first novel by Gibson, and he's specially great at describing moods and places.

Most important of all, the novel's concept and understanding of the internet age is remarkable - the foresight, particularly. I mean, this is a book written in 2003, more than ten years ago, yet it has the NSA and the Echelon program as an omnipresent menace, it foresees a series of enigmatic footage that obsesses people in message boards (when the lonelygirl15 phenomenon was still three years into the future) and the world of compulsive commercial branding it describes has done nothing if not getting more real since its publication.

[Winston*]

Just finished up Hyperbole and a Half. As expected, it was excellent.

I do wish that it had been... larger. It was normal book-sized, and I would have liked it to be coffee table book-sized. But that's a minor complaint.

My little brother got me this for Christmas...along with Infinite Jest for balance.

Read the bits about her younger self's time capsule and her retarded dog. Really funny. I'd never read her website.

[D_Davis]

Finished Pattern Recognition by William Gibson today. Hell of a book. I can foresee some criticisms of it (conclusion wrapped up a bit too neatly, main character never experiences real danger) but it kept me thrilled to the very last word and the prose is amazing. This is my first novel by Gibson, and he's specially great at describing moods and places.

Most important of all, the novel's concept and understanding of the internet age is remarkable - the foresight, particularly. I mean, this is a book written in 2003, more than ten years ago, yet it has the NSA and the Echelon program as an omnipresent menace, it foresees a series of enigmatic footage that obsesses people in message boards (when the lonelygirl15 phenomenon was still three years into the future) and the world of compulsive commercial branding it describes has done nothing if not getting more real since its publication.

Probably my favorite book of his. He's very good at writing about the very near future. It's definitely a trait of the cyberpunks, and Gibson is a master. He's actually improved with age.

If you get a chance to, check out City Come A Walkin', by John Shirley. It's a little more genre-orientated, and hardboiled, but it's a super great example of early cyberpunk that isn't as well known as others. In it, Shirley examines the city as a living entity - it's really good.

[dreamdead]

Took about a month, but finally finished Thomas Pynchon's Bleeding Edge. Not fully confident about Pynchon cycling through some of the more fringe politics that unfolded after 9/11, but the book has several spots that undercut that sort of mindset. Likewise, there are one or two spots that uncomfortably lack the sort of gender consideration that seems appropriate for the character--at least one sexual encounter feels more plot-mediated than character-motivated, considering the aggressor's background. Ultimately, the book is at its strongest in its exploration of Maxine and her two kids, chartering how she works to ensure safety for them even as they're coming of an age that doesn't require that safety anymore. In that sense, the opening and closing of the novel are dynamic and richly conceived--expressly commenting upon the changing age but without the sort of nostalgia that could damage a book. Pynchon's cyber-avatars and the Deep Web are also convincingly drawn, full of pregnant possibility and future-looking--always a joy.

And his prose at its best is still simply one of a kind. Haven't read anything else of Pynchon's post-Gravity's Rainbow, and this makes me want to get around to Inherent Vice this year.

[Mara]

Well, Vicious by V. E. Schwab was surprising and noteworthy. It's a little rare to see a writer tackling the idea of, for a lack of a better term, "superheroes" in novel form. This feels a little bit like a comic book, and a little bit like a summer blockbuster, but Schwab wisely chose to keep this a novel because it has a distinct and important difference from the normal genre: this is a superhero book without any heroes in it. One might argue that it is a double super-villain origin story. These are not even anti-heroes. They're Bad Guys.

Schwab has no problem telling us this from the beginning: she opens with a quote from Joseph Brodsky. "Life-- the way it really is-- is a battle not between Bad and Good, but between Bad and Worse."

I liked it.

[dreamdead]

Maria Semple's Where'd You Go, Bernadette was a lot of fun. The design of the story--how letters, emails, and narration blend together--is an interesting challenge for something so fun, and the characters get such great character. Useful for those interested in a comic novel, and for those who want a novel to convince you to want to go to Antarctica.

Pretty sure that I'm gonna make this year the "read everything by Alice Munro" year. It's been wonderful so far. Read two of her collections already so far and have another four in my possession.

[Gittes]

Are there any fans of Austen (and Pride and Prejudice in particular) on this forum that have read P.D. James' Death Comes to Pemberley?

[dreamdead]

And finished Flannery O'Connor's collection Everything that Rises Must Converge. This one is not as exemplary as A Good Man is Hard to Find, treading many of the same themes, but lacking a superlative story to anchor the collection, whereas O'Connor's earlier collection had at least three. And while that former collection balanced the moralism with ironies and sudden revelation, this collection feels too pat in its ostracization of those who don't conform to O'Connor's worldview. In that respect the book feels too much like polemics and not full enough in its art.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Amazon's 100 Books to Read in a Lifetime (http://www.amazon.com/b?ref_=tsm_1_tw_s_ab_n0gd53&ie=UTF8&node=8192263011)


I love the variety of the list, but holy hell are there some egregious omissions (no Dostoevsky chief among them).

[Raiders]

Amazon's 100 Books to Read in a Lifetime (http://www.amazon.com/b?ref_=tsm_1_tw_s_ab_n0gd53&ie=UTF8&node=8192263011)


I love the variety of the list, but holy hell are there some egregious omissions (no Dostoevsky chief among them).

I think they were going more for "popular" books as well as primarily books of English-origin and were trying to be as all-encompassing in terms of age and genre as possible. It is not intended to be much of a "best of" or even an academic list. Kind of a strange impetus in general.

Still, the inclusion of fucking Murakami and not Dostoevsky or even especially Tolstoy (War and Peace and Anna Karenina are extremely well-known) is just bizarre.