The Book Discussion Thread

[dreamdead]

Let's say I thought the first third-to-half of Gravity's Rainbow was brilliant but that it eventually grew tedious from lack of characterization or new ideas. What other Pynchon books might I like?

The only other two of Pynchon's that I've read are V and The Crying of Lot 49. I never really found character to be one of Pynchon's strengths--my memory isn't strong on either text any more, but my initial, and profound, dislike of Lot 49 has evolved to extreme appreciation (Pynchon: appreciation to the EXTREME http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v696/joel_harmon/Pete_rocking_Out20.jpg) over the years.

His books for me are very tied to a 60s hippie aesthetic, which is sometimes hard for me to get into. What makes him interesting, to me, is his engagement with technology and rise of technical communication. The playfulness of character names and identities is countered by a thorough treatment of culture and technology (power lines, alternative communication systems, etc).

I'd recommend The Crying of Lot 49 just because it's so short, especially after GR, but found myself much more tied to V when reading it. His more recent novels have been far too encyclopedic for me to try...

[Duncan]

Mason & Dixon. Definitely the best characterizations of his career.

[Melville]

His books for me are very tied to a 60s hippie aesthetic, which is sometimes hard for me to get into. What makes him interesting, to me, is his engagement with technology and rise of technical communication. The playfulness of character names and identities is countered by a thorough treatment of culture and technology (power lines, alternative communication systems, etc).
Yeah, somewhat related to that, what I liked best, and found most interesting, about Gravity's Rainbow was the way it used its style to connect disparate things in elaborate, paranoid patterns that it associated with the paranoia of its characters living within a world made up of perverse and incomprehensible systems.


Mason & Dixon. Definitely the best characterizations of his career.
I remember you recommending that to me before. I'll add it to my to-read list.

[Benny Profane]

Mason & Dixon. Definitely the best characterizations of his career.


^^^^^

[D_Davis]

Started reading The Queen's Gambit, by Walter Tevis today (Color of Money, The Hustler, The Man Who Fell to the Earth), and it is bad ass.

[D_Davis]

This book is so freaking awesome it hurts.

[D_Davis]

I wouldn't be surprised if The Queen's Gambit ends up being my favorite book this year. Walter Tevis, through his crystal-clear, deceptively-simple and straightforward style creates more tension on a single page than I find in the entirety of most thrillers. And that the tension comes from detailed descriptions of chess matches makes the feat all the more remarkable. It is a masterful book about obsessions and addictions, competition, and game theory, all centered around a wonderfully drawn female protagonist who is one of the most interesting characters I've ever encountered in a work of fiction. If you like chess at all, at any level (I like chess, but I totally suck at it) or you like thrilling narratives at all, read this book now.

It is a masterpiece.

[D_Davis]

Walter Tevis interviewed about The Queen's Gambit (http://www.wiredforbooks.org/mp3/WalterTevis1983.mp3)

Walter Tevis interviewed about SF, The Man Who Fell to the Earth, and Mockingbird (http://www.wiredforbooks.org/mp3/WalterTevis1984.mp3)

Both MP3s.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Add this to my Book List. Thanks for the rec, Davis.

[Qrazy]

I suspect you'll dislike it pretty strongly.

:lol: I suspect you're right.

[D_Davis]

Add this to my Book List. Thanks for the rec, Davis.

Sure thing. This is the first novel of his that I've read, but I plan on reading everything now. I've got The Man Who Fell to the Earth and Mockingbird on my shelf, and I want to get The Hustler and The Color of Money.

[Qrazy]

Sure thing. This is the first novel of his that I've read, but I plan on reading everything now. I've got The Man Who Fell to the Earth and Mockingbird on my shelf, and I want to get The Hustler and The Color of Money.

Such an awful film, I really can't imagine the book being much better... or rather I can imagine it being much better given how awful the film is but I can't imagine it being a good book.

The Hustler is a great film though and a lot of that is in the characterizations and dialogue so I'm guessing the book is great too.

[D_Davis]

Such an awful film, I really can't imagine the book being much better... or rather I can imagine it being much better given how awful the film is but I can't imagine it being a good book.


My two best book-reading friends both say it's among their favorite SF novels. One of them bought The Queen's Gambit for me.

[Irish]

Davis, out of curiosity, have you seen the movie, or are you going in blind?

[D_Davis]

Davis, out of curiosity, have you seen the movie, or are you going in blind?

I saw the movie years ago, when I was very young. I don't remember a thing about it.

[dreamdead]

I read the first 75 pages of Philip Roth's American Pastoral. So good. Gonna try to balance work responsibilities so that I don't rush through this, but the temptation is there. I love its depiction of the results of age and ideology on the 1950s youth into the present day. Assured, studied, and critical of the flaws of politics and oppression.

[Qrazy]

My two best book-reading friends both say it's among their favorite SF novels. One of them bought The Queen's Gambit for me.

Ah, well I suppose it could just be a terrible adaptation, let me know how it goes.

[D_Davis]

Ah, well I suppose it could just be a terrible adaptation, let me know how it goes.

I'll probably be reading Mockingbird (dystopian SF) or his short story collection (all SF) first.

[ledfloyd]

I read the first 75 pages of Philip Roth's American Pastoral. So good. Gonna try to balance work responsibilities so that I don't rush through this, but the temptation is there. I love its depiction of the results of age and ideology on the 1950s youth into the present day. Assured, studied, and critical of the flaws of politics and oppression.
i'm glad to find someone on this forum that doesn't think it's an awful book.

[dreamdead]

i'm glad to find someone on this forum that doesn't think it's an awful book.

I just read Duncan's write-up. I'll keep it in mind as I keep reading, but I find myself very much in tune with the world thus far.

[D_Davis]

The Queen's Gambit, by Walter Tevis

Beth Harmon is an orphan, an addict, and somewhat obsessive; she was also a child prodigy, and is the best chess player in the world. And, through the words written by Walter Tevis, she is also one of the most fascinating female protagonists I've ever encountered. Throughout this coming-of-age/sports narrative, Beth Harmon comes face-to-face with sexism and communism, blunders her way through awkward social interactions, and struggles through a series of very normal dramatic events. The book does not feature Lifetime-movie-of-the-week-sized peeks and valleys of human drama, but instead works on a smaller scale while still maintaining thrills and tension on almost every page.

Walter Tevis uses what is probably the most readable and transparent style I've ever read. Never once was I reminded that I was reading a book; it was as if the narrative was being broadcast directly from my brain. The pages vanished, and the words conveyed everything in a fashion not completely unlike osmosis. His prose is deceptively simple, straightforward, and direct; I absolutely love concrete language, and The Queen's Gambit is full of it.

What is most remarkable is how tense, exciting, and thrilling the story is. And what's most remarkable about that is that most of those moments come in the form of detailed descriptions of chess games. It is obvious that Walter Tevis knows the game of chess, and he writes about it in such a way that a simple move of a pawn to Queen's Bishop Four becomes as dramatic an event as a lone warrior standing his ground against an army of three-hundred.

I wouldn't be surprised if this ends up being my favorite book of the year. I haven't enjoyed a book this much since reading Lonesome Dove in 2011. I'd recommend this book to just about anyone, especially anyone who has even the slightest interest in chess, game theory, and the spirit of competition.

[Mara]

Finished up "The Portrait of a Lady" and was very impressed with it. James' delicious prose aside, it's a nuanced and careful look at the choices a woman makes that lead to her unhappiness. Isabel has, for her time, a surprising amount of freedom: no male relatives dictating her actions, money enough to make her own decisions, and a good head. She turns down two marriage proposals not out of dislike, but just because she's not too interested and doesn't want to be tied down.

And, with every good intention, she makes decisions that rob her of everything she has: her money, her youth, her liberty, and her happiness. Her husband isn't a monster, like you see in so many 19th-century books. He's not abusive or an alcoholic. He's just a quiet man who manipulates and crushes her through lack of love.

I love a good ambiguous ending, too. This one was spectacular and frustrating.

[Mara]

Davis, I read The Queen's Gambit this weekend. In, like, a day.

It was very readable. The spare prose, which you loved, I sometimes really enjoyed but sometimes got frustrated with. It meshed well with Beth's socially awkward, unpoetic personality but sometimes I felt like I wasn't reading a book, just a series of sentences.

Overall, I liked it, though. Tevis is great at evoking unease, sleeplessness, tension and illness, and the book is best when Beth is at her worst. The descriptions of chess games were riveting.

The book made me remember how much I enjoyed Searching for Bobby Fischer back in the day. I wonder if that movie still holds up?

[Kurosawa Fan]

That movie definitely holds up today. I watched it a couple months ago for about the tenth time. Such a good movie.

[D_Davis]

Davis, I read The Queen's Gambit this weekend. In, like, a day.

It was very readable. The spare prose, which you loved, I sometimes really enjoyed but sometimes got frustrated with. It meshed well with Beth's socially awkward, unpoetic personality but sometimes I felt like I wasn't reading a book, just a series of sentences.

Overall, I liked it, though. Tevis is great at evoking unease, sleeplessness, tension and illness, and the book is best when Beth is at her worst. The descriptions of chess games were riveting.

The book made me remember how much I enjoyed Searching for Bobby Fischer back in the day. I wonder if that movie still holds up?

Nice, glad you liked it.

I never felt like I was reading a book. It was like the story was just happening in my head. I never noticed the words or sentences - just the story.

[Mara]

That movie definitely holds up today. I watched it a couple months ago for about the tenth time. Such a good movie.

I'm going to check it out again. "Chess prodigy" is one of those things I always wished I was as a child, because it be cool.

[dreamdead]

You make me want to read Henry James, Mara. That is something I didn't expect to happen again after the indifference I had with Daisy Miller...

I read Alden Bell's The Reapers are the Angels today. It's my second post-apocalyptic zombie narrative this year (after Colson Whitehead's Zone One), but much more rooted in a Cormac McCarthy/Faulkner prose style. It's interesting since this feels close to YA literature in its design, with a 15-year old female protagonist in Temple, who spends about half of the novel shepparding around a 35-year old mentally handicapped man. These moments suggest the latent Faulkner influences (Sanctuary's Temple and The Sound and the Fury's Benjy), while one of the central dynamics involves a survivor who hunts Temple for a previous trespass, invoking McCarthy's Judge Holden from Blood Meridian. It's the kind of pastiche that shouldn't really work, but I found it surprisingly credible. There's a bit of sexuality that seems sketchy when one remembers Temple's age, and Bell doesn't really grapple with those dimensions at all. Still, Bell captures a convincing study of faith and justice within his narrative, for Temple's generational gap with many of the other characters has her refusing to be pessimistic in the face of this apocalyptic nightmare since she has no other memory of what the world should be. Temple's overall trust in the world, and others, is something that remains and the ending is appropriately haunting.

I could see this one working for several members on the site. It will certainly be more popular than my likely positive evaluation of American Pastoral when I finish it in the next week...

[Duncan]

So Middlemarch...kinda magnificent. Way better than I was expecting.

[Mara]

So Middlemarch...kinda magnificent. Way better than I was expecting.

One of my favorite novels. Ever. Period.

[kuehnepips]

Ishiguro's Never Let Me Go is called Alles, was wir geben mussten in German (Everything we had to give).

It made me cry like his Remains of the Day.

[Lucky]

Ishiguro's Never Let Me Go is called Alles, was wir geben mussten in German (Everything we had to give).

That's a much better title for the book, thematically speaking.

[dreamdead]

So I read the critiques that Duncan had with Philip Roth's American Pastoral, and I certainly concede many of the complaints. Dawn certainly comes off as one-dimensional, and her lone moment of triumph lies in the finale, where she engages in a standoff against the Swede's father, in that trial-like sequence about how she and the Swede will raise their children if they do in fact marry. Naturally, one could contend that Zuckerman is exposing how limited the Swede's mindset is through this repetitive caricature, but (until I read more Roth) that is more projection on my part than wholly believed.

Why do I find the book effective, then? I think it mostly lies in Roth's handling of Merry. Her antagonism of the blasé attitude that the Swede wields regarding ethics and American justice are rejoinders that I believe work, remain in character, and argue that her stance on the world affairs surrounding the Vietnam war are also Zuckerman/Roth's. Many of the geopolitical and ethnic politics are handled well, and the Swede's impotent rage against Dawn merely exposes his own failings; it's likely laid on a bit thick, but oh well. Merry comes off as the most intelligent since there's so much projection from the Swede into her interiority, but I thought her coverage saves the book and allows it a strength that recedes whenever her coverage falls off.

I'll probably read The Human Stain at some point this year...

[Mara]

I've started Moby Dick and I'm fascinated and a little uneasy. The high-falutin', poetic language is gorgeous and lush, and the characterizations and plot are funnier than I would have expected, but... sheesh. This book has a relationship with racism that is just making me squirm. It would be one thing if it was just outright prejudiced, but it keeps couching it in terms that seem to be compassionate. Ishmael keeps saying some variation of, "I believe that all men are the same under the skin, even if they are dirty, pagan cannibals" or "I try to respect all men's religious beliefs as long as they aren't stupid and weird."

Queequeg's stunted, grunting speech is not helping matters.

[Benny Profane]

I've started Moby Dick and I'm fascinated and a little uneasy. The high-falutin', poetic language is gorgeous and lush, and the characterizations and plot are funnier than I would have expected, but... sheesh. This book has a relationship with racism that is just making me squirm. It would be one thing if it was just outright prejudiced, but it keeps couching it in terms that seem to be compassionate. Ishmael keeps saying some variation of, "I believe that all men are the same under the skin, even if they are dirty, pagan cannibals" or "I try to respect all men's religious beliefs as long as they aren't stupid and weird."

Queequeg's stunted, grunting speech is not helping matters.


I didn't notice much racism in the book, to be honest. My issue is that the middle part essentially abandons the plot and becomes "the joy of whaling." It gets a little tiresome. But it finishes very strongly and, in the end, is worthy of all the accolades.

[dreamdead]

So according to Time's 100 influential people of the year, the authors worth noting this year are E.L. James and Ann Patchett (for her stand over the online book industry apparently). Strange, I would have thought that Franzen would still have dominion over lists like these. Also, anyone read any Patchett? Worth my time?

[Grouchy]

I don't remember any racism in Moby Dick either, at least none that bothered me. As Benny says, my issue with the novel has more to do with the chapters that become fully detailed essays on whale-hunting, and it sounds like you haven't reached that point yet.

[Milky Joe]

Paging Melville. Melville, come in.

[D_Davis]

I've never hated a book more than Moby Dick. How someone turned a grand adventure of a man out to slay and get revenge on a giant beast into a plodding bore will forever boggle my mind.

And talk about INFODUMP! Good lord. Lit-heads always complain about SF being full of infodump, but I've read technical manuals with less infordump than MD.

[Melville]

Paging Melville. Melville, come in.
I was going to write something about Moby Dick's treatment of race, but then people started talking negatively about its sections on whaling.

Moby Dick is the immensest of books, the greatest exploration ever written of humanity's quest to understand and conquer the unknown. It's an overthrow of romanticism and rationalism at once, a dive into deeper ambiguities that lie beneath society and humanity's normal concepts of reality. But for some reason I'm unaware of, it's viewed by most people I've talked to as dry and stodgy, which it's precisely the opposite of: it's steeped in a mixture of irony and grandiosity, of humor and doom-laden pontificating, like no other book. It's hilarious, brilliant, and bizarre. The only stranger book I've read (at least pre-20th century) was also by Melville.

Ishmael's musings on whaling, history, and the meaning of the whale, among other things, don't merely comment on (or worse, distract from) the story around them: they are the backbone of the story. Those non-narrative chapters are the book's thematic and structural core, and for me, the book's most memorable part. My thoughts on their role is here (http://melvillian.wordpress.com/2010/04/24/the-book-project-capsule-reviews-part-vii-the-great-white-whale/) But I'll say some more. The whaling voyage embarks into the unknown, beyond the constraints of accepted Ideas that normalise raw, unfettered reality, toward death, the end of consciousness, the end of the Subject. Out there in the sea, Ishmael's musings run equally unfettered—raw reality is not raw sensory data or anything so trivial, but a sea of thoughts and actions, an ambigous mingling of sense and meaning.

The variety of scenes, from Ahab's bombastic quest for revenge to the detailed descriptions of the actual process of whaling, to Ishmael's musings on the meaning of all things, establishes the multifarious nature of the narrative. The whaling voyage is not merely a metaphor for something else, nor is it merely a means of hunting whales or of exacting revenge: it is a particular, rich endeavor, a physical pattern of action and set of goals, and the chapters describing it bring out that richness in itself. At the same time, it is the patterns of meaning that the characters give it and those that Ishmael describes in his musings. The flensing of the whale, which is given minute description, is representative of the entire quest, a dissection of the unfathomable, a brutal attempt to make of it raw matter divested of meaning (or transmutated into pragmatic meaning). But that very action is flush with meaning. Melville's novel goes beyond simple mind-matter or matter-meaning dualism, beyond even any notion of matter containing meaning, instead insisting that the unfathomable cannot be fathomed, only given meaning, only pointed to as something beyond, something to be attained or conquered. The white whale cannot be killed. It cannot be ascribed a single meaning (even the meaning I'm ascribing it as the unfathomable, the absolute).

Moreover, Ishmael's musings on the meaning of the whaling, the meaning of the white whale, the meaning of the whale's whiteness, don't serve to state what the story 'represents'—they describe a wealth of meanings that are not necessarily definite or reconcilable. They don't take the act of interpretation out of the readers' hands, but point to themselves and their own act of interpretation as an additional layer of meaning, a layer within the overarching theme of taming, conquering, killing the unfathomable. They point to ambiguities beyond any simple interpretation. That ambiguity is reinforced by the fact that they're the musings of Ishmael himself, who, from his first words, drifts between the roles of an everyman, a ghostlike nonentity, and a highly idiosyncratic individual.

In my opinion, and this is likely where I differ from most, the essay-like sections are also thoroughly engrossing and often tremendously funny in themselves. Ishmael surmises that deep thinkers emit vapor and that St George actually rode a sea lion to slay a whale. That's gold! And his discussion of things like sharks devouring each other and themselves in an orgy of blind, ravenous viciousness is unforgettable.

Regarding the book's racism, my response was the same as Benny's and Grouchy's. The book treats members of the more 'savage' societies (for lack of a better word) as something exotic, but it often favors them and disparages the more 'refined' societies. Its treatment of them as exotic adds to the feeling that the Pequod is traveling beyond the normal everyday of everyday and simultaneously representing human society as a whole. And like most things in the book, it's laced with irony. Also, at one point in the book, Ishmael mentions, as an aside, that later in life he lives with natives and is covered in tattoos. That's one of my favorite moments; I love how it's just dropped into the narration innocuously. Ishmael has gone to death and returned (literally riding a coffin at the end)—but unlike the traditional hero of myth who goes beyond the bounds of society, he does not return to that society from which he came, but continues on in a different one, one that offers a different mode of understanding the unknown. Yet this is not presented in terms of 'the noble savage', a return to innocence, or anything so daft. Like the rest of the book, it contains a multitude of meanings.


I've never hated a book more than Moby Dick. How someone turned a grand adventure of a man out to slay and get revenge on a giant beast into a plodding bore will forever boggle my mind.
You might find your mind less boggled if you stopped thinking the story's about a grand adventure of a man out to slay a giant beast. If a book doesn't seem to be about what you think it's about, it's probably because it's not actually about that. Ahab is awesome, and so is his dire quest for revenge, but its place is to tie together the rest, not to be the whole thing.


And talk about INFODUMP! Good lord. Lit-heads always complain about SF being full of infodump, but I've read technical manuals with less infordump than MD.
I don't know what 'lit-heads' say about 'infodump', but the info in Moby Dick is an essential part of it and of what it achieves.

[Sven]

What's the stranger book, Melvs?

[Melville]

What's the stranger book, Melvs?
Pierre: or, The Ambiguities. Awesome book.

[Sven]

Pierre: or, The Ambiguities. Awesome book.

Rad. You know my feelings about Moby Dick, so I may check this one out soon.

[Melville]

Rad. You know my feelings about Moby Dick, so I may check this one out soon.
What else have you read by him? After those two books, my favorite things are the short stories "I and My Chimney" and "The Piazza". The Confidence Man is also quite interesting, and probably his most ironic.

[Kurosawa Fan]

How do you feel about Bartleby, Melville? I know it's probably his most popular story, considering its placement in most anthologies of American literature, but I just read it and found it fantastic. Outside of the obvious critique of industrialization and mechanization, I read a piece that talked about Bartleby as a stand-in for Melville, who was continually dispirited by his lack of success and rapidly rising debt.

[Sven]

What else have you read by him?

Nothing, embarrassingly. I have a few on my shelf, but have yet to crack into them. I don't know if you've kept tabs on the Comic Book thread, but I haven't read a proper book in a while. It's about time.

[Melville]

How do you feel about Bartleby, Melville? I know it's probably his most popular story, considering its placement in most anthologies of American literature, but I just read it and found it fantastic. Outside of the obvious critique of industrialization and mechanization, I read a piece that talked about Bartleby as a stand-in for Melville, who was continually dispirited by his lack of success and rapidly rising debt.
I like it, but considerably less than those others. I do prefer it to Billy Budd, his other most famous short story.

In the final section of Pierre, Pierre suddenly (and inexplicably) tries and fails to make a living as a writer. He's pretty clearly another stand-in for Melville, and the whole section is enormously bitter about the publishing industry.

[Mara]

I thought Billy Budd was great. I think I enjoyed Bartleby, too, but it's probably been fifteen years since I read it.

I'm by turns fascinated and frustrated with Moby Dick. When it focuses on the thoughts of the characters and the events of the sea, it's very interesting and thought-provoking. The "essay" sections are more hit-and-miss: the interminable "list of every whale ever" was boring and ground the book to an absolute halt, but somehow the "list of all things that are white" was interesting and built the story.

I am enjoying the book, but I have to make a complaint about Melville's need to tell us, instead of show us, the motivations of his characters. I would have liked to discover Ahab's character and obsessions for myself, but instead we're given a chapter that just states everything outright, without giving concrete examples of his behavior. ("This is Ahab. He is obsessed with a whale. The end.") The behavioral examples come later-- him casting off after the sperm whales in his private boat with his hidden cache of men, for instance-- but at that point you've lost the sense of discovery that a reader gets while uncovering a character by themselves.

As regards race, I think part of my discomfort comes from Melville considering himself to be far more post-racial than he was. Certainly, for his time, he had some innovative and progressive ideas. Still, he sort of keeps slipping all these imperialistic, paternalistic bigotries in the back door, while appearing to have a great deal of outward respect for other races. In the "list of things that are white" section, for example, he talks about the color of their skin "giving the white man ideal mastership over every dusky tribe." I mean... yikes.

[Melville]

As regards race, I think part of my discomfort comes from Melville considering himself to be far more post-racial than he was. Certainly, for his time, he had some innovative and progressive ideas. Still, he sort of keeps slipping all these imperialistic, paternalistic bigotries in the back door, while appearing to have a great deal of outward respect for other races. In the "list of things that are white" section, for example, he talks about the color of their skin "giving the white man ideal mastership over every dusky tribe." I mean... yikes.
I think you may be reading it too much like a book which doesn't argue that St George rode a sea lion.

[Mara]

I think you may be reading it too much like a book which doesn't argue that St George rode a sea lion.

I think you have had a profound and personal relationship with this book that makes your reaction to it feel correct and everyone else's feel incorrect. I have had the same relationships with certain books... though, not this one.

[Melville]

I think you have had a profound and personal relationship with this book that makes your reaction to it feel correct and everyone else's feel incorrect.
Lame. Obviously I think what I said about the book is correct. Otherwise I wouldn't have said it. I can certainly understand people disliking it or not being interested in its approach (e.g., your complaint about it telling rather than showing).

[Mara]

Lame. Obviously I think what I said about the book is correct. Otherwise I wouldn't have said it.

You're right, of course. You are the only person who has ever truly understood or appreciated this book. Pardon me if I decline to discuss it with you any further.

[Melville]

All right then.

Anyway, any fans of Don Quixote around here? I just started it (or, rather, picked up where I left off 10 years ago, about 150 pages in). Comedy gold. Nice change from Paradise Lost.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Anyway, any fans of Don Quixote around here? I just started it (or, rather, picked up where I left off 10 years ago, about 150 pages in). Comedy gold. Nice change from Paradise Lost.

I liked it quite a bit. The episodic nature of it tends to make the book a bit repetitive as it moves along, but that was totally forgivable. I still vividly and fondly remember several moments from the book, which is usually a solid marker for the quality of something I read over five years ago now.

[Qrazy]

Melville like many authors before him is writing concerning the notion of the noble savage. I suggest reading Typee (his first novel/travelogue) to develop a more robust sense of his position on indigenous tribes because that is what that the novel is primarily about.

"It may be asserted without fear of contradictions that in all the cases of outrages committed by Polynesians, Europeans have at some time or other been the aggressors, and that the cruel and bloodthirsty disposition of some of the islanders is mainly to be ascribed to the influence of such examples. (The) he voluptuous Indian, with every desire supplied, whom Providence has bountifully provided with all the sources of pure and natural enjoyment, and from whom are removed so many of the ills and pains of life--what has he to desire at the hands of Civilization? Will he be the happier? Let the once smiling and populous Hawaiian islands, with their now diseased, starving, and dying natives, answer the question. The missionaries may seek to disguise the matter as they will, but the facts are incontrovertible." - Typee

The protagonist is critical of the missionaries while also referring to the natives as savages. In both novels though we have to draw a distinction between the author and the characters he's speaking through. For instance was Shakespeareanti-semitic because of some of the dialogue in Merchant of Venice? Most likely not, but some of the content skirts the line and can certainly be played in a very ugly manner (I saw an adaptation where 'Oh Jew' was played for laughs).

I'm not sure we can say precisely what Melville himself believed although I would guess that to some degree he did view these 'others' as savage (as distinct from the culture he came from). But I'm also sure that certain conceptions about the world that we take for granted today will themselves be subject to criticism and ridicule further down the road. For the time I'll take a noble savage over an evil savage or ignoring the race issue entirely.

[Melville]

I liked it quite a bit. The episodic nature of it tends to make the book a bit repetitive as it moves along, but that was totally forgivable. I still vividly and fondly remember several moments from the book, which is usually a solid marker for the quality of something I read over five years ago now.
Yeah, the repetitiveness was what made me stop reading it the first time, even though I was liking it a lot. I'm interested in getting to the fake-Quixote portion of the book.

[dreamdead]

Vulture ranks all of Stephen King's works (http://www.vulture.com/2012/04/ranking-all-62-stephen-king-books.html).

I should probably get around to The Shining and The Stand... I'm curious of whether or not It and Salem's Lot will hold their standing in my mind were I to reread them.

EDIT: Oh, and Daniel, I read Thomas Ligotti's short story "The Glamour" last night. That was some amazing prose, and the kind of thing that'll force me to check out one of his books over the summer.

[D_Davis]

EDIT: Oh, and Daniel, I read Thomas Ligotti's short story "The Glamour" last night. That was some amazing prose, and the kind of thing that'll force me to check out one of his books over the summer.

Yeah - he's a fantastic writer. I think he and Cisco are among the best writers working today, that I know of.

I recommend you get Teatro Grotesco.

[D_Davis]

Vulture ranks all of Stephen King's works (http://www.vulture.com/2012/04/ranking-all-62-stephen-king-books.html).

I should probably get around to The Shining and The Stand... I'm curious of whether or not It and Salem's Lot will hold their standing in my mind were I to reread them.


Pretty cool, thanks for the link. Reading the newest one now.

The Stand is amazing. I think it's a "great American novel." I'd rank it up there with Lonesome Dove as far as American epics go.

I re-read 'Salem's Lot a couple of years ago, and I liked it even more than when I first read it.

EDIT: Ha! I already have a major problem with the list - Insomnia is WAY too low. That's top 10 material right there. That King fans hate that book so much is totally bizarre to me. It is brilliant, and one of his most creative works. EDIT 2: I also rank Cell in my top 10. It's a rip-roaring thriller; it's short, hits hard, and is full of tension. It's also one of his best in terms of prose. EDIT 3: and Wolves of the Calla is the best of the Dark Tower novels. EDIT 4: Lisey's Story in the top 10? Yuk. That book is a total stinker. EDIT 5: Wizard and Glass #7? Wow. Worst of the series, by far. EDIT 6: Great to see On Writing in the top 10. It's my favorite book on the craft. EDIT 7: The Stand is amazing, but I think Under the Dome is King's singular masterpiece, and contains the best ~200 pages he's ever written, and The Dark Tower is my favorite fantasy series.

[D_Davis]

My King Rankings:

The Dark Tower Series - I can't rank these with his other work. This is my Lord of the Rings, A Song of Ice and Fire, Harry Potter, etc.


1. Wolves of the Calla
2. The Drawing of the Three
3. The Dark Tower
4. Wastelands
5. The Gunslinger
6. Song of Susannah
7. Wind through the Keyhole (not finished, but I'm confident in this placement)
8. Wizard and Glass

Novels and Collections - I'm only rating what I've read as an adult, because I don't remember enough to rate the others. So a lot of his older books like The Shining and It won't appear on this list. I read those in jr. high and high school. I plan on re-reading them this year.

1. Under the Dome
2. The Stand
3. The Long Walk
4. On Writing
5. Different Seasons
6. 'Salem's Lot
7. The Talisman
8. Skeleton Crew
9. Insomnia
10. Cell
11. Desperation
12. Eyes of the Dragon
13. Cycle of the Werewolf
14. Misery
15. The Girl Who Loved Tom Gordon (this is the book that got me back into King as an adult)
16. Hearts in Atlantis
17. Dreamcatcher
18. Everything's Eventual
19. Full Dark, No Stars
20. 11/22/63
21. The Regulators
22. Bag of Bones
23. Needful Things
24. Lisey's Story

[Sven]

17. Dreamcatcher
21. The Regulators
23. Needful Things

You complain about their list featuring titles way too low...

[D_Davis]

Needful Things is terrible.

[ledfloyd]

i don't understand wizard and glass being that low on the dark tower list. it's easily my favorite.

[D_Davis]

i don't understand wizard and glass being that low on the dark tower list. it's easily my favorite.

It's easily my least favorite. :)

The narrative stops dead for a completely unnecessary flashback that offers up zero insight. The first part is awesome, and the last part is awesome. The 400 page flashback is not. There is no need for it. King grinds his narrative to a halt for no reason. Everything we need to know about Roland has been thus far expertly SHOWN in his actions and mannerisms. The flashback is worst than unnecessary, it is down right insulting. It's as if King didn't have enough faith in his own characterization or in the intelligence of his readers, and so he felt as if we had to have an origin story. Origin stories suck. Up until this point, the narrative has been constantly pushing forward, and here, everything comes derailed for a small and superfluous look at a character who is already so wonderfully drawn.

The flashback would have been better served to be released as The Wind Through the Keyhole was - as a separate side-story told after the completion of the narrative. I don't mind it in that book.

But I've already waged this war with countless DT fans - WaG tends to be the most loved, so I know I'm in the minority. I also love the ending of book VII, and with Wolves of the Calla being my favorite, it definitely appears that am out of step with the DT consensus.

[Sven]

Needful Things is terrible.

I think I still may have a comic book report of it that I did for my tenth grade English class. If I find it, I'll definitely bring it when I see you next.

[D_Davis]

I think I still may have a comic book report of it that I did for my tenth grade English class. If I find it, I'll definitely bring it when I see you next.

Haha...OK! :)

[amberlita]

My King Rankings:

Have you not read Gerald's Game? I'd be curious on your thoughts. I think it's pretty great.

That Vulture list is reminding me just how many King books I used to read. I can't believe I made it through Rose Madder and Insomnia. And The Green Mile for that matter. The were terrible.

I'm sad you ranked Bag of Bones so low. It's my favorite King novel.

[D_Davis]

Have you not read Gerald's Game? I'd be curious on your thoughts. I think it's pretty great.

That Vulture list is reminding me just how many King books I used to read. I can't believe I made it through Rose Madder and Insomnia. And The Green Mile for that matter. The were terrible.

I'm sad you ranked Bag of Bones so low. It's my favorite King novel.

I have not read GG. I should get to it sometime soon.

I really liked the first 1/2 of BoB, and the DT connections, but I really struggled with sticking with it for some reason. I tend to like King's bigger, more sweeping epics than his smaller, more personal novels. I like the way he handles large casts of characters, and sometimes I think he struggles with novels that are more focused on a single character. Not always, though.

[amberlita]

I have not read GG. I should get to it sometime soon.

I really liked the first 1/2 of BoB, and the DT connections, but I really struggled with sticking with it for some reason. I tend to like King's bigger, more sweeping epics than his smaller, more personal novels. I like the way he handles large casts of characters, and sometimes I think he struggles with novels that are more focused on a single character. Not always, though.

He does the grand scale so well that I don't blame you for preferring them. I do as well. BoB was one of the first smaller and quieter novels of his that I read and my surprise at the degree of heartbreak I felt is probably what propels it so high on my list. It is one of his most painful love stories. And it didn't hurt that those damn basement scenes scared the shit out of me.

I need to pick up the DT series again. I stalled on The Drawing of the Three and haven't gotten back to them, despite the fact that the book is really quite good.

[amberlita]

Just want to say that I really respect your reviews on books, Davis. I'm in the market for a new book and skimmed back a few pages to see what folks around here have liked. Unfortunately no B&N around here carries it in stock but I'm ordering The Queen's Gambit based on just your handful of posts. Sounds awesome and can't wait.

[D_Davis]

Just want to say that I really respect your reviews on books, Davis. I'm in the market for a new book and skimmed back a few pages to see what folks around here have liked. Unfortunately no B&N around here carries it in stock but I'm ordering The Queen's Gambit based on just your handful of posts. Sounds awesome and can't wait.


Thanks. Mara just read it and liked it as well. I'm really looking forward to reading more Tevis this year. I'll probably read Mockingbird sometime soon.

I'm going to start this today:

http://www.sawtoothbooks.com/pictures/25163.JPG

I've also decided to read the entire Lonesome Dove series. Ever since reading LD last year, I simply cannot stop thinking about it. Absolutely one of the best books I've ever read.

[dreamdead]

Catherine Chung's Forgotten Country starts off great, engaging matters of Korean American assimilation, ethnic identity, and familial responsibility, but the last hundred pages end up a little too centered on the familial and loses some of the American concerns as it returns to South Korea. It makes sense for the novel's concerns, but it also removes some of the angles that it balanced in terms of Korean/American identity in the beginning. Wonderfully evocative prose for the most part, though.

Back to Sherman Alexie's Indian Killer, and I'll probably start Nathan Englander's collection What We Talk About When We Talk About Anne Frank as well.

[ledfloyd]

But I've already waged this war with countless DT fans - WaG tends to be the most loved, so I know I'm in the minority. I also love the ending of book VII, and with Wolves of the Calla being my favorite, it definitely appears that am out of step with the DT consensus.
i'm actually pretty sure we've had this conversation before, now that you go into your reasoning. i love wolves, but the ending for book VII doesn't quite work for me, which is a shame because the first two thirds or so are insanely good. endings in general are what have kept me really from embracing king as a writer. i think i really gravitated to the dark tower because for such a long time it didn't have an ending.

[D_Davis]

endings in general are what have kept me really from embracing king as a writer. i think i really gravitated to the dark tower because for such a long time it didn't have an ending.

Yeah. A lot of people really seem to have problems with his endings. For some reason, I don't. I think that's because I don't put a lot of stock in endings in general. They're probably my least favorite part of a good book. Also, with the DT books, I didn't have a ton of time invested - I started the series right when book 6 was published, and read the entire think in a year. That was a very different experience than a lot of people had.

[Morris Schæffer]

I started reading the first Jack Reacher novel, Killing Floor. Anyone else read'em?

[Benny Profane]

From the files of "I can't believe I haven't read this already," The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test is absolutely phenomenal so far. Unbelievably ecstatic display of writing and language.

[D_Davis]

From the files of "I can't believe I haven't read this already," The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test is absolutely phenomenal so far. Unbelievably ecstatic display of writing and language.

Good book. I got to sit and have coffee with Ken Kesey once. He was a nice guy, and totally fun to talk to.

[D_Davis]

Had a nice little conversation about Lonesome Dove with a dude today. I was walking to work and I had The Last Picture Show in my pocket, with Larry McMurtry's name just peaking over the top of my pocket. This guy asked me what McMurtry I was reading, and I showed him. He said he liked it, but that Lonesome Dove was his favorite. I agreed, and told him that LD might be my favorite novel of all time. He said it was the first book he ever read, and that he read it while in jail and it changed his life. I said with that being your first book, it's pretty much been downhill from there. He laughed and agreed.

That would never have happened had I been reading an e-book on my Kindle. Just one of the many reasons why, while e-books are great, I will always love p-books the best.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I started reading the first Jack Reacher novel, Killing Floor. Anyone else read'em?

I read it. My dad loves them. I found it completely unremarkable. Does nothing to deviate from the formulas of the genre.

[D_Davis]

The Last Picture Show is really something else. So sad and depressing, and yet also oddly hilarious. The fascination with sex surrounding all of characters is fascinating, and totally believable. I don't think I've ever read better depictions of teenage lust and sexual anxiety. This is better than any of the bildungsroman, coming-of-age tales I ever had to read in school, and I'm wondering why this book wasn't taught in my high school and college lit courses. McMurtry is a genius writer.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I really liked All My Friends Are Going to be Strangers, but that's the only McMurtry novel I've read. I need to amend that this summer.

[D_Davis]

I really liked All My Friends Are Going to be Strangers, but that's the only McMurtry novel I've read. I need to amend that this summer.

I'm going to read that this year.

Are you going to read Lonesome Dove?

[Kurosawa Fan]

I'm going to read that this year.

Are you going to read Lonesome Dove?

I'd say that's the logical next step, considering your high praise. :)

[dreamdead]

Nathan Englander's collection What We Talk About When We Talk About Anne Frank is a fun collection in which traditionally orthodox Jewish identity is explored against the backdrop of contemporary American society. It has two or three standout narratives, such as the opening and closing stories, and its treatment of Jewish themes is good. That said, I'm not sure how much I like riffs on Raymond Carver's fiction, as the opening story does. Technically, nothing here is better than Philip Roth's Goodbye, Columbus and Five Other Stories collection, but it's interesting enough. Certainly the mileage will differ on others.

Benny, as a purveyor of Cheever/Carver, this might be up your alley...

[Mara]

I just finished up re-reading The Woman in White by Wilkie Collins for a book club and enjoyed it much more a second time through. The things that bothered me the first time through-- wacky coincidences, soapy plot twists, etc.-- just seemed not as egregious when I knew they were coming.

The fact is, it's a nifty little mystery/romance/thriller novel, with unique and intriguing characters. It's a light, entertaining read (which seems like a strange thing to say about a 600-page Victorian novel, but here we are.)

[D_Davis]

I just finished up re-reading The Woman in White by Wilkie Collins for a book club and enjoyed it much more a second time through. The things that bothered me the first time through-- wacky coincidences, soapy plot twists, etc.-- just seemed not as egregious when I knew they were coming.

The fact is, it's a nifty little mystery/romance/thriller novel, with unique and intriguing characters. It's a light, entertaining read (which seems like a strange thing to say about a 600-page Victorian novel, but here we are.)

I've got The Moonstone lined up to read this year.

[Mara]

I've got The Moonstone lined up to read this year.

Let me know if it's worth reading. I wouldn't mind another Wilkie Collins.

[dreamdead]

Decided to jump from Nathan Englander's tactile prose into King's 11/23/63, to reward myself for writing the dissertation at a good clip so far this semester.

[D_Davis]

The Last Picture Show just keeps on getting better. I'm on the final stretch, and I really don't want it to end. Looks like I'll be reading the sequels to this one as well.

And now I really want to read Terms of Endearment. McMurtry is a master of building male relationships, and I want to see how he does with female characters.

[D_Davis]

The Last Picture Show, by Larry McMurtry

The Last Picture Show is populated with some of the most despicable characters I've ever met. I've never encountered a group of characters as small-minded, petty, and bored as those found in Larry McMurtry's portrayal of life in the small Texas town of Thalia. People use each other, abuse each other, and bully each other, and basically do whatever they can to ruin each others' days and lives through selfish acts of infidelity and manipulation, and spreading lies of rape, homosexuality, and pedophilia.

Like Loneseome Dove, I'll never forget many of the moments in this novel. From the nigh-unbelievable and incredibly hilarious antics of the worst basketball game in history, to Sam the Lion's anger at growing old, the book is simply overflowing with passages detailing the lives of characters who find themselves' half-way to nowhere on a dead-end highway of life. They're all going nowhere fast, left without a snowball's chance in hell, and they all know it, and, what's more, they all know there really isn't a damn thing they can do about it.

There is a pervasive sense of sadness to this novel, a sadness that comes from a realization. When we're young, the world is before us, and it appears to us that our elders have it all figured out. And then as we get older, we begin to wonder if people do have it figured out, and it seems to us that there are some people who don't, and as long as we don't end up like that we'll be OK. And then we get old, and we finally realize that no one has shit figured out, and everyone is basically living one day at a time trying not to fuck stuff up too badly.

It's all we can do to hold on.

That's life. Holding on. And what we need to do is find the stuff that is worth holding on to, and not letting go no matter what.

[dreamdead]

Knocked out King's 11/22/63 with a four hundred page burst yesterday (aka ignoring everything else). I actually ended up not having any real complaints about Jake as a narrator; while his character isn't the most developed of King's oeuvre, there's enough there that it isn't a problem. I would have liked a bit more on some of the racial climate, as opposed to asides, but the gender commentary was solid. My real issue with the book resides in two things:

One, I cared for the Sadie and Jake relationship, which made the initial ending with Oswald seem too bittersweet, with King essentially stacking the deck. I don't remember some of his earlier books, but Sadie's death seemed a bit too mechanical--with the woman suffering for history. Although the coda liberates that sentiment, he'd built up their relationship enough that this seemed a cheat.

Two, the changed present seemed undeveloped, a cursory sketch that lacked any extensive coverage. Certainly the extent of the changes can warrant a changed present, but this one didn't feel wholly earned. The coda works for me and returns to King's central idea, "dancing is life," but the constancy of dystopian earthquakes and nuclear war needed more development.


I quite liked the symmetry, or harmony, if you will, where narrative events overlapped or repeated. The way that King alludes to the violence of Dallas, narrowly avoiding getting shot before the grieving shooter commits suicide, finds a wonderful double in Sadie's ex-husband. That kind of detail, which never feels overblown or overtly constructed, is a wonderful testament to King's handling of the material. The book could have used a bit of trimming, undoubtedly, but it's solid "what if?" speculation, and thorough in its care toward its people. I think I too like Under the Dome a bit more... though there's several great passages here.

I love the passage, for example, that Errol Morris singles out in his NYTimes review:


“For a moment everything was clear, and when that happens you see that the world is barely there at all. Don’t we all secretly know this? It’s a perfectly balanced mechanism of shouts and echoes pretending to be wheels and cogs, a dreamclock chiming beneath a mystery-glass we call life. . . . A universe of horror and loss surrounding a single lighted stage where mortals dance in defiance of the dark.”

[D_Davis]

There are some really great passages in 11/22/63. While King isn't always a super strong prose writer, sometimes he really nails certain passages and leaves me stunned by his insight.

[Melville]

Hey Sven, do you like Maurice Sendak? His death reminded me to recommend to you the version of Melville's Pierre that he illustrated, called the Kraken edition. He depicts the main character dressed as Superman, basically, except with plainly visible genitalia. It puts an extra level of bizarre romanticism on the novel. Definitely worth checking out if you like Sendak, though not the best edition to read, since it excises some of the book.

[dreamdead]

I read James Wood's How Fiction Works over the last few days. He's typically a New Yorker literary reviewer, and usually brandishes an acute understanding for contemporary fiction, and where an author's new novel fits within the continuum of their oeuvre (his analysis of Chang-rae Lee was unparalleled when I came across it last year). Anyway, this is a full length study of the nature of narrating, detail, character, consciousness, language, dialogue, and convention, drawing on lots of late-nineteenth century and early twentieth century examples, with a few contemporary authors slipped in as well.

It's recommended for those who love fiction and prose, and occasionally Wood will stun me with the simplicity of his beliefs, such as when he dismisses Forster's notions of flat and round characters below:


“Spatial metaphors, of depth, shallowness, roundness, flatness, are inadequate. A better division—though not perfect, either—is between transparencies (relatively simple characters) and opacities (relative degrees of mysteriousness). Many of the most absorbing accounts of motive, from Hamlet to Stavrogin to the subjects of W. G. Sebald’s The Emigrants, are studies of mystery” (129).

It's a simple shift in rhetoric, but the change is transcendent in terms of how I now think about those divides.

[dreamdead]

Hey, KF, given your appreciation for Jess Walter's The Zero, did you ever read his The Financial Lives of the Poets? I think I'm going to start that next week...

[Kurosawa Fan]

I did. I thought it was good, but slight. Very little of the novel has stuck with me. Then again, this is what I posted after finishing:


Finished The Financial Lives of the Poets in a day. It's a brisk read, and is a very good book. Story chugs along and kept me intrigued. It was especially poignant due to a few parallels between myself and Matthew. Lacked a bit of the depth and complexity of The Zero, but I consider The Zero one of the best books I've ever read, so it's hard to keep up that level of quality. Still, Walter continues to impress me. I need to seek out more of his work. No excuse not to at this point.

Seems it has diminished in my mind in the years since.

[Ezee E]

Knocked out King's 11/22/63 with a four hundred page burst yesterday (aka ignoring everything else). I actually ended up not having any real complaints about Jake as a narrator; while his character isn't the most developed of King's oeuvre, there's enough there that it isn't a problem. I would have liked a bit more on some of the racial climate, as opposed to asides, but the gender commentary was solid. My real issue with the book resides in two things:

One, I cared for the Sadie and Jake relationship, which made the initial ending with Oswald seem bittersweet too much, with King stacking the deck. I don't remember some of his earlier books, but Sadie's death seemed a bit too mechanical--with the woman suffering for history. Although the coda liberates that sentiment, he'd built up their relationship enough that this seemed a cheat.

Two, the changed present seemed undeveloped, a cursory sketch that lacked any extensive coverage. Certainly the extent of the changes can warrant a changed present, but this one didn't feel wholly earned. The coda works for me and returns to King's central idea, "dancing is life," but the constancy of dystopian earthquakes and nuclear war needed more development.


I quite liked the symmetry, or harmony, if you will, where narrative events overlapped or repeated. The way that King alludes to the violence of Dallas, narrowly avoiding getting shot before the grieving shooter commits suicide, finds a wonderful double in Sadie's ex-husband. That kind of detail, which never feels overblown or overtly constructed, is a wonderful testament to King's handling of the material. The book could have used a bit of trimming, undoubtedly, but it's solid "what if?" speculation, and thorough in its care toward its people. I think I too like Under the Dome a bit more... though there's several great passages here.

I love the passage, for example, that Errol Morris singles out in his NYTimes review:
Finished this myself, had a brutal time getting through the middle 300-400 pages, but the front 200 and last 200 are pretty intense to read. I agree with everything you say, especially the underdeveloped "new present" which seemed predictable as it was approaching.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Just finished A Clash of Kings. Can someone give any justification to that "gotcha!" moment in the final chapter without spoiling anything coming up in the next couple novels? Why should I not find that moment extremely lame? I was actually angry about it last night when I finished reading.

Aside from that moment, it was another solid entry in the series. I'm surprised by the strength of the argument against religion by Martin. This book in particular consistently pointed out the foolishness of faith and prayer through the complications formed by multiple groups praying to multiple gods, and the wide range of successes in the exploits of these groups. Be it the old gods, the new gods, the god of light, etc., it becomes clear that those who ignore the gods and focus on creating their own successes seem to find it more often.

I've also read a lot about Martin's sexism and racism, but I think that's nonsense. Martin has created a universe that incorporates fantasy elements into a world that closely mirrors Europe in the middle ages. That was a world of sexism and racism, but Martin, through Arya, Dany, Cercei, and Catelyn, show that women have as much strength as men, and often are wiser as well. To do this, Martin casts aside typical gender associations, something I admire, while still maintaining elements of the feminine in each character to varying degrees.

As for the racism, while the Dothraki and other races from the outer worlds are shown as more tribal and less economically developed, it's also clear that they aren't any less civilized. The events taking place in Westeros, and the behaviors of "civilized," largely white cultures, aren't any more ethical or less violent or "animal" than those of the Dothraki. They consistently engage in atrocities, some of them far more revolting than anything done by the Dothraki. In fact, an argument could be made that the Dothraki operate by a far more consistent, and in some ways more admirable, moral code than many of those in Westeros.

As for the fetishizing of young women, that's a charge I can't really argue against. It's been prevalent since the first book. Perhaps it's there to challenge the notion that we as a society pretend not to do the same, yet we objectify girls at a young age by advertising makeup, jewelry, and other materials typically associated with women trying to attract a mate. This would also work with Martin's challenge of the incest taboo, something we fear in modern society and try not to even discuss let alone understand. I'm not sure I buy that argument, though.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to the rest of the series, but I'm planning on reading a few unrelated books before moving on to A Storm of Swords. First up, Cloud Atlas.

[Mara]

While waiting for the audio book I really want to become available, I'm listening to Tina Fey's Bossypants. It's passably funny and charming. Fey narrates the book and isn't exactly a professional-grade narrator. However, I did find out that I have been completely mispronouncing the word "menarche."

In book format, I just started The Wings of the Dove. I'm curious how it will hold up next to The Portrait of a Lady. It starts strong.

[Irish]

Finished re-read of Farewell, My Lovely. Forgot how oddly convoluted the plot is, and how ugly the characters are (approaching an almost Jim Thompson level of nastiness).

Great book, but I still think The Long Goodbye tops it.

[Grouchy]

The Long Goodbye is only the best novel ever written.

Heh, I love making statements like that.

[ThePlashyBubbler]

Just finished A Clash of Kings. Can someone give any justification to that "gotcha!" moment in the final chapter without spoiling anything coming up in the next couple novels? Why should I not find that moment extremely lame?

Remind me what moment you're referring to?



First up, Cloud Atlas.

Awesome.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Remind me what moment you're referring to?

The fact that Bran and Rickon weren't killed by Theon. They were supposedly found in the mill and killed, their heads put on spikes outside of Winterfell, yet the final chapter of the book finds them hiding in the crypt all along. Who the hell did Theon kill in the mill, and how did he not know it wasn't Bran? Lamest twist ever, unless it's explained in the upcoming novel. Even so, it's a pretty lame "gotcha" moment, especially since it was set up by a premonition by Jojen, the green-seer who says his green dreams always come true. He told Bran he had a dream in which Winterfell would be captured and Bran would die.

[Derek]

The fact that Bran and Rickon weren't killed by Theon. They were supposedly found in the mill and killed, their heads put on spikes outside of Winterfell, yet the final chapter of the book finds them hiding in the crypt all along. Who the hell did Theon kill in the mill, and how did he not know it wasn't Bran? Lamest twist ever, unless it's explained in the upcoming novel. Even so, it's a pretty lame "gotcha" moment, especially since it was set up by a premonition by Jojen, the green-seer who says his green dreams always come true. He told Bran he had a dream in which Winterfell would be captured and Bran would die.

You find out later that Theon knew it wasn't Bran and Rickon. I believe it was just two young peasant boys that they killed since they needed heads. It's one of the weaker twists in the earlier books, but Martin is fond of being extremely vague in battle/death scenes, often waiting several chapters, sometimes longer, before revealing whether or not a character actually died or was just captured. It's usually done more effectively than it was there.

[Kurosawa Fan]

That's what I figured the explanation would be. Still, his (Theon's) interior monologue was fairly disingenuous at times after the fact. If not completely false, than purposefully misleading in service of the twist. This was definitely a lame deception that the novel flat out doesn't need.

[ThePlashyBubbler]

The fact that Bran and Rickon weren't killed by Theon. They were supposedly found in the mill and killed, their heads put on spikes outside of Winterfell, yet the final chapter of the book finds them hiding in the crypt all along. Who the hell did Theon kill in the mill, and how did he not know it wasn't Bran? Lamest twist ever, unless it's explained in the upcoming novel. Even so, it's a pretty lame "gotcha" moment, especially since it was set up by a premonition by Jojen, the green-seer who says his green dreams always come true. He told Bran he had a dream in which Winterfell would be captured and Bran would die.

My girlfriend actually also just finished Clash and had a similar reaction as you, and I was surprised as I remembered Theon knowing he hadn't killed the two Starks. I went back and checked, and its alluded to in the second-to-last Theon chapter (in its last couple of lines).

"The miller's boys had been of an age with Bran and Rickon, alike in size and coloring, and once Reek had flayed the skin from their faces and dipped their heads in tar, it was easy to see familiar features in those misshapen lumps of rotting flesh. People were such fools. If we'd said they were rams' heads, they would have seen horns."

The gist is that Theon felt he'd be viewed better as a cruel ruler than an ineffective one, thus after failing to find a cripple & a toddler, he takes the opportunity to pretend he's offed them. When he comes across the two other young boys, he figures he can pull the switch without anyone noticing. I thought this was actually totally in keeping with the sense of wild desperation in Theon's character, but its mentioned so fleetingly that it's an easy moment to miss!

[Kurosawa Fan]

Yeah, I can't believe I missed that. I feel pretty foolish.

[Mara]

Has anyone read The Dresden Files series? Are they good?

[Irish]

Has anyone read The Dresden Files series? Are they good?

I read the first book and part of the second. I wouldn't quite call it "Twilight for boys," but it's close.

Lotsa tired fantasy tropes, some light humor, and a thick sheaf of superficial, lightweight writing.

If you're a 14 year old boy, you'll dig it.

[romantisaurusrex]

Getting back into some fiction after pouring my heart out through Nietzche's major works the past few weeks, I just started:
http://bookcoverarchive.com/images/books/the_broom_of_the_system.large. jpg

I've read most of DFW's nonfiction as well as Infinite Jest, and this one seems fairly on point. As I was browsing at some of the praise, someone said that DFW's closest literary resemblance was Vladimir Nabokov, which I'd never though about but is startlingly accurate in my opinion. Even though they come from completely different cultural perspectives, they both have this finesse for complete honesty of the human condition through a kind of spurious eccentricity.

[dreamdead]

Writing about the housing collapse and the concurrent crash of various news entrepreneurs, Jess Walter's The Financial Lives of the Poets systematically undercuts many of the trappings that typically occur alongside them. The novel's prose is meticulous (Walter continually turns a fine phrase throughout), but the tendency to deny more cliched artifacts of a narrative, such as drug heavies and lawyers without consciences, deprives the text of building up tension. In many ways it's effective undercutting, suggesting the latent humanity behind even these characters, but it also limits the novel's dramatic arc. When the book covers the economic crises, it's fantastic; when it reverts more to fantasies of drug selling to get back on track financially, it's limits are exposed.

Also, I'm slightly troubled by the treatment of Lisa, the wife, who is largely demonized even though Matthew's eye wanders astray in its description of several women.

Pretty decent, but yeah, The Zero is better.

[Irish]

The Toronto Star is reprinting Ernest Hemingway's columns. Here's one on bullfighting, published in 1923 (about three years before The Sun Also Rises):

http://ehto.thestar.com/marks/bullfighting-is-not-a-sport-it-is-a-tragedy

[Mara]

I'm listening to A Heartbreaking Work of Staggering Genius and it's pretty compelling so far. The style reminds me a little of Michael Chabon's fiction, emotional and fanciful but with an exaggerated focus on the obscene, visceral, and uncomfortable. (Some of the descriptions of the physical aspects of his mother's late-term cancer made me physically gag.)

Somehow I did not know this was a memoir going in, but it hardly matters, since it doesn't follow a traditional memoir structure.

Thus far, I'm pretty impressed.

[D_Davis]

Started Horseman, Pass By; by Larry McMurtry today. God lord that man can write. He is very, very quickly becoming one of my favorite authors. He has a knack for creating these characters who are incredibly petty and small, and yet I can't help but respect and admire them a bit just because of the mundane and hard lives they live. And I never get the sense that McMurtry glorifies and romances the poor in the way that authors like Steinbeck do. He does not portray his characters as noble savages, nor do I get the sense that McMurtry longs for the simpler times of his novels. No, instead he examines the warts and all, the racism and sexism, and the close-mindedness in a matter of fact way; he doesn't condemn, nor condone, he is simply showing. That is, McMurtry never comes across as being didactic. I don't think he's as concerned with making a social statement as he is with simply telling a wonderful story.

[Irish]

Recent essay in the NY Times. First part of a series.

Philip K. Dick, Sci-Fi Philosopher

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/20/philip-k-dick-sci-fi-philosopher-part-1/#

[ledfloyd]

I'm listening to A Heartbreaking Work of Staggering Genius and it's pretty compelling so far. The style reminds me a little of Michael Chabon's fiction, emotional and fanciful but with an exaggerated focus on the obscene, visceral, and uncomfortable. (Some of the descriptions of the physical aspects of his mother's late-term cancer made me physically gag.)

Somehow I did not know this was a memoir going in, but it hardly matters, since it doesn't follow a traditional memoir structure.

Thus far, I'm pretty impressed.
wait until he starts going on and on about his magazine.

[Mara]

wait until he starts going on and on about his magazine.

Yeah. So dull.

I'm about two-thirds done and my reaction is decidedly mixed. His sense of self-importance is beyond belief, but he occasionally lives up to it. Complete thoughts when finished.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I found him insufferable. I gave up less than halfway through.

[Milky Joe]

Recent essay in the NY Times. First part of a series.

Philip K. Dick, Sci-Fi Philosopher

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/20/philip-k-dick-sci-fi-philosopher-part-1/#

How boring. But it's the NYT, so I don't know what I expected. My favorite comment:

"This article is one part philosophy and nine parts poorly argued personal bias."

[ledfloyd]

Yeah. So dull.

I'm about two-thirds done and my reaction is decidedly mixed. His sense of self-importance is beyond belief, but he occasionally lives up to it. Complete thoughts when finished.
it's been a long time since i've read it but i remember the beginning being stunning, then it devolving into insipid self-importance for awhile (a long while) and ultimately recovering for the ending. my overall impression of the book is probably positive but that middle section needs to go.

[Mara]

it's been a long time since i've read it but i remember the beginning being stunning, then it devolving into insipid self-importance for awhile (a long while) and ultimately recovering for the ending. my overall impression of the book is probably positive but that middle section needs to go.

I finished it, and I'm pretty much with you, but I think the mediocrity of the vast middle pushes it into a negative overall opinion. Squandered potential. Note to Eggers: writing something egotistical and self-important and then pointing out that it is egotistical and self-important doesn't actually neutralize the original statement.

His self-involvement is also so great that I was continually astonished by it. I could pick a dozen examples, but here's one near the end that really bothered me: the siblings have never received their parents remains, and Eggers decides to go track them down. However, he finds out from his sister that she was contacted about her father's remains and that she declined to claim them. Eggers is furious and berates her verbally and in the text for not involving him in the process. He (rightly) believes that he should have had a say, because the remains didn't belong to her exclusively, but to all the siblings.

Only a couple of pages later, Eggers actually does recover his mother's remains, and he proceeds to dump them in Lake Michigan without informing his siblings. His little brother, who really had a crappy life and probably could have used some closure, is given not a single thought or input. His grown brother is not considered. Eggers is such an egotist that he can't even see how much of an egotist he is. I kind of want to punch him.

Also, sheesh, the 90's were self-important. I remember that myself. I was about a decade younger than Eggers, but if I had found that magazine he wrote at the time I would have thought it was beyond cool. Now I just think it's stupid and mean and self-congratulatory.

[ledfloyd]

perfume that smells like books (http://steidlville.com/books/1312-Paper-Passion.html)

[Kurosawa Fan]

I want to start my brief review of Cloud Atlas by hitting all the positives first. It would seem silly to start things off any other way than by praising Mitchell for his command of genres and voices. The most remarkable thing about his novel is the way it jumps from one story to the next, one moment in time to the next, and one genre to the next without ever feeling familiar. He alters spelling, but does so in a very subtle way so that what could be seen as a corny device instead feels completely natural. His characters go from male to female without feeling like they exist within the same gender. In this way, Cloud Atlas is like no other book I've read as of yet.

I was also surprised by the bleakness of his presentation of Marxism. All along, he seemed to be advocating that view, as the book's most prevalent theme is the existence of the powerful and the subjugated throughout human history, most obviously seen in the corpocracy of Orison of Sonmi-451, but also present in the stories of the Maori and the Moriori, the relationship between Frobisher and Ayers, Cavendish and the institution, Luisa and the power plant, and then revisited in much the same style as the Maori and Moriori in "Sloosha's Crossin'" between the Valleysmen and the Kona. It's this revisitation (sic) that takes place far in the future, after the near extinction of man, yet so closely mirrors events happening in the colonizing days of the past, that clearly communicates that, whether governments or corporations are present to exploit the worker or not, man will always fall back on this power struggle between oppressors and oppressed; that the strong will always make slaves of the weaker. In essence, Marxism is a faulty system of rule because man will inevitably find ways to acquire and exploit power. Nothing revelatory, but the way the book seemed headed toward a stark criticism of Capitalism and corporate greed only to make an about face with the same errors being made centuries later was startling and a bit refreshing.

This also seems to question the value of human life and the nature of our existence. If we continue to fall into the same traps of violence, greed, subjugation, and willful ignorance, are we a species worth saving? Mitchell is painting on a canvas that clearly sees man on the precipice of a great fall. Is that such a bad thing? He doesn't seem to argue against the fact that it's a deserved fall, but the grandiosity of the stories, and the fact that each story continues to survive and touch lives of those so far in the future suggests that, through our capacity to create lasting art, we are earning our place in the world. These stories aren't great pieces of art either. They are unreliable first person narrations of "true" events, often formed from journals, letters, interviews, etc. In every case they are on the verge of being lost, yet find their way into the hands of someone decades removed from the writing and influence their life in even a small way. In that way, it isn't so much history that's important, but the creative documentation of that history that brings a uniqueness and value to our lives.

This examination of our existence also extends to the setting of each story. These stories take place almost exclusively on islands. Hawaii, the Chatham Islands, an island off the coast of the fictional Buenas Yerbas, CA, and England. In Frobisher's case, he flees an island to Belgium looking for respite and finds only his demise (though self-induced, to be sure). Seclusion plays a strong role in each of these stories, with the island itself often augmenting this seclusion. This idea of seclusion can be extrapolated to our view of our planet, that we are disconnected from the rest of the universe, and that we are potentially alone out here. This would also tie into the way the book touches on the role of religion in our lives. I haven't formed this theory enough (nor will I, likely), as it's something that struck me toward the end of the novel.

That does lead me to my first complaint, and as a reader of the novel, it's a big one. I found very little satisfaction in reading the second half of the novel. Every theme had been perfectly established, and wasn't expanded upon much by giving a second half to each account. As perfect evidence of this, all of the notes I jotted down were done on page 310, after the completion of "Sloosha." It seems as though Mitchell didn't want his stories to end on such a dark note, so he gives the reader happier conclusions (for the most part) in the second half. Perhaps this is a critique on the structure of stories, but I found the incompleteness of the first half of the stories much more satisfying. Each story seemed to end in death (Ewing dying mid-sentence from his illness, Cavendish dying in the home, Luisa dying in the car, Sonmi-451 having her sentence carried out (exception being Frobisher, but there just has to be an exception, right?)), and what more logical point can a story reach that death. I was hoping Mitchell was calling into question the fallacy that any story, any character can have their narrative come to a conclusion at any point other than their death, but instead we get unnecessary second halves that end in "more satisfying" ways. Also, we can chalk this up to Mitchell's skill as a writer, but if I'm being honest, I wasn't too keen on revisiting the pulp crime genre of "Luisa Rey." Once was enough. It took me less than a week to read through the first half of Mitchell's book, and then more than two weeks to finish the second half out of something bordering apathy for the experience.

Secondly, and this is a far more minor complaint, I could have done without the silly didactic conclusion. It seemed disingenuous considering where Mitchell sees the human race headed (and maybe that's the point, that it's being ironic, but that reading just makes it seem like a snide cheap shot). The themes were obvious enough, I didn't need Mitchell spelling things out for me.

Anyway, there was soooo much to like with this book, as should be plainly obvious from the length of this analysis (if you can call it that), but part of the reading experience is just that: experience. On that level, the second half of Mitchell's novel was a failure for me, and detracted from what could have been one of the best books I've ever read. Instead, I was left truly enamored with Mitchell's skill, while wanting more from his execution. I most certainly look forward to reading more from him in the future, and hoping he can top this one.

[Benny Profane]

My memory of the book is spottier than I thought. A lot of what you're talking about I don't remember well enough to comment on though I did enjoy your review. I definitely had no issues with the second half but I can't really dispute your reasoning. I actually started Black Swan Green last night.

[Kurosawa Fan]

So The Turn of the Screw was definitely about child molestation, correct? I mean, I feel like that was pretty clearly telegraphed. Pretty interesting novella. I like the way that James attempted to subvert traditional gothic tropes by having much of his haunting take place in the middle of the afternoon on sunny days. That said, James's own style of writing, something I fell in love with in The Portrait of a Lady, interfered with the narrative in this one. His intricate, complex sentences, some of which need to be read twice to be read correctly, often times killed some of the tension the story was building. Had his writing been more straightforward, I could have focused less attention on the structures of his sentences and more on the action taking place. Also, the ambiguity seemed to work against the novel at times. Despite its short length, it became frustrating to deal with two characters who keep talking in circles and are unwilling to confront their situation fully. I did appreciate the ambiguity when it came to our narrator, the new governess. By adhering to first person narration, it's difficult to know whether she is behaving in the best interest of the children or her own. Considering she's the only one experiencing these specters, it's not only plausible that they weren't actually happening, but it struck me that the ghost of these former inhabitants of Bly could actually be her own inner demons haunting her, tempting her to take advantage of these children. Her language is filled with sexual imagery the closer she gets to Miles, and the physical contact between the two of them is increased as well. Miles even confronts her about the inappropriate nature of their relationship, though she reads the conversation in a different way (perhaps intentionally so). Perhaps I'm reaching. Anyone else that's read the story pick up on this?

Anyway, I really liked the lack of clarity in the mystery, I just wish it hadn't been so repetitive (really damaging for such a quick read).

EDIT: Spoiler tags added. Should have done that in the first place.

[dreamdead]

I really love Catcher, but it is nothing like anything else Salinger did. The Glass family books/stories were definitely his best works, and probably more realistic/philosophical as an adult.

Franny and Zooey was indeed excellent. I have a slight remove from the text because Zooey's over-abuse of his mother seems a tad bit excessive, but many of the apparent digressions into spirituality pay off so masterfully at the end of both stories (and is this 18th-century Russian text real--it sounds fascinating). It's been a while since a novel moved so seamlessly between character, psychology, and ennui. What makes this text stand out over Catcher, is that it isn't nearly as dismissive of ideas as Holden is, but rather questions and contemplates those ideas.

Nine Stories is now on my radar. Thanks to you and Derek for your recent praise--it made me want to finally check out some Salinger. I'm quite pleased that I did. Up next is Chang-rae Lee's The Surrendered.

[ledfloyd]

ever since salinger died i've been hoping someone would unearth a treasure trove of unpublished glass family stories, because they're so good. but i'm starting to lose hope.

[Irish]

Can Dostoevsky Still Kick You in the Gut? (http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/books/2012/06/dostoevsky-notes-from-underground.html)

David Denby interprets Notes from Underground.

[Milky Joe]

http://blog.lareviewofbooks.org/post/24707313588/occupygaddis

Tomorrow begins Occupy Gaddis, a collective netread of William Gaddis's JR inspired by the very successful Infinite Summer thing a few years ago (group read of Infinite Jest). The level of interest so far has been pretty impressive, and since I bought the book a couple months ago and have been waiting for an excuse to dive into it, I think I will be participating. Maybe some folks here are interested!

[Derek]

http://blog.lareviewofbooks.org/post/24707313588/occupygaddis

Tomorrow begins Occupy Gaddis, a collective netread of William Gaddis's JR inspired by the very successful Infinite Summer thing a few years ago (group read of Infinite Jest). The level of interest so far has been pretty impressive, and since I bought the book a couple months ago and have been waiting for an excuse to dive into it, I think I will be participating. Maybe some folks here are interested!

Very cool! It's a fantastic book and one that would definitely benefit from extended discussion. I'll try to keep up with the thoughts and comments.

[Duncan]

http://blog.lareviewofbooks.org/post/24707313588/occupygaddis

Tomorrow begins Occupy Gaddis, a collective netread of William Gaddis's JR inspired by the very successful Infinite Summer thing a few years ago (group read of Infinite Jest). The level of interest so far has been pretty impressive, and since I bought the book a couple months ago and have been waiting for an excuse to dive into it, I think I will be participating. Maybe some folks here are interested!

Awesome. One of the very, very best.

Although I'm not sure how he would feel about the Occupy appropriation...

[Irish]

Seven hundred plus pages of pure, unattributed dialogue has me intrigued. Goddamn, that's ambitious.

[Derek]

Awesome. One of the very, very best.

Any other Gaddis novels you'd recommend?

[Milky Joe]

Any other Gaddis novels you'd recommend?

Why The Recognitions of course!

[Duncan]

Yeah, The Recognitions is also pretty spectacular. More metaphysical, less political, just as immense and engrossing.

Agapē Agape (best title ever?) is kind of the opposite of those two books. It's very short, less than 100 pgs, but, to be honest, I felt it was an excruciating read. Not that it's not also amazing, just that it was written when he knew he was pretty close to the end and it's like all the worst fears of his nobler characters have been realized. It's full of rage, sadness and disappointment. It's also a desperate, seething exhortation to be better than ourselves. I wouldn't describe it as hopeful by any means, but it definitely imagines a less awful world.

[Duncan]

"That was Youth with it's reckless exuberance when all things were possible pursued by Age where we are now, looking back at what we destroyed, what we tore away from that self who could do more, and it's work that's become my enemy because that's what I can tell you about, that Youth who could do anything."

Gaddis, Agapē Agape

[Milky Joe]

That very much echoes the section in The Recognitions where Wyatt is in the midst of a fever dream, which sort of climaxes with this:

"On the couch, Basil Valentine rested a hand on his forehead, and moved it gently. —You are feverish, he said. He got up to turn on a soft light near the windows, and returned to the couch. —Just lie still, he said. —A little cognac . . . there . . .
—Yes, you see . . . ? You see?
—Don't try to talk now for a minute. And close your eyes. Basil Valentine held the hot squared sides of the skull between his hands, and rested his thumbs softly on the eyelids. —There's no need to say a word. You're safe here.
—You see, if ... I could become the one who could do more than I could."

That last line hit me like a ton of bricks when I read it.

[dreamdead]

Gaddis is gonna be someone I check out in the fall/next year. It's sad that I've never read any of his work. These excerpts excite me.

Made good headway in Chang-rae Lee's The Surrendered today. The man knows how to develop a great rhythm and pacing; the end to that first chapter was brutal, and the narrative is quickly becoming enthralling. Hopefully, I can continue this streak tomorrow. I'm liking how he combines the Korea War with anti-war sentiments of WW2, and how he's building out a variety of ethnic communities that were growing in NYC circa the 1980s. Hopefully the transnational bent of this next section doesn't descend into caricature...

[Mara]

I breezed through O Pioneers a couple weeks ago but I found it underwhelming, especially considering how much I liked My Antonia.

I'm now reading Things Fall Apart, which I would have sworn I read-- and liked-- in high school, but I remember not a thing about it, and now I'm doubting that I've read it before. I might have been confusing it with something else. I'm so unfamiliar with the cultural traditions behind the story that it takes a certain amount of research and concentration to contextual things, but so far it's a fascinating read.

[Morris Schæffer]

I'm currently reading The Pixar Touch, about the origins and eventual formation of the company. And it's a thouroughly engaging read. Ed Catmull and Alvy Ray Smith, in 1980, went to work for Lucasfilm in the hopes that their computer animation career would ignite in earnest, but Lucas wasn't really interest in computer animation. Then, in 1981, Paramount came knocking. Who knew that one of the pivotal moments in the very early days of what was to become Pixar was to be found in the Genesis Effect, seen in Star Trek 2: The Wrath of Khan? Here it is:

NM1r37zIBOQ

And here's a progenitor of the genesis effect, Vol Libre, by young programmer Loren Carpenter who used fractals to create a short sequence to woe Ed Catmull and Smith so that he would be hired. And they did recruit him, on the spot, after they saw this:

AfY6jS9LB4U

[dreamdead]

I breezed through O Pioneers a couple weeks ago but I found it underwhelming, especially considering how much I liked My Antonia.


Bummer. This and Death Comes for the Archbishop are the two last major Cather novels I aim to read (since I've already done My Antonia, A Lost Lady, and The Professor's House), as the former two are pretty roundly excellent, and the latter is decent simply because it captures a certain historical moment in time. But is O Pioneers more themeless, characterless, or plotless, given your underwhelming aftertaste?

[dreamdead]

About halfway through Lee's The Surrendered now, and the narrativearc has become more and more convoluted. At a sentence and paragraph level it is fine, but the constructedness is becoming too apparent. Lee wants to examine the novel's present (set in the 1980s), but that period concerns only 35 pages of the 210 pages so far. Otherwise we're in 1950s Korea and have just backtracked to the 1930s. These connections are less character-based and more concerned with a full coverage of 20th-century wars. And male lead Hector is too artificial, indestructible in the war to better effect an Illyiad parallel.

The story is still interesting, but the focus seems threefold rather than singular, and I doubt I'll be able to unsee this fact.

[Mara]

Bummer. This and Death Comes for the Archbishop are the two last major Cather novels I aim to read (since I've already done My Antonia, A Lost Lady, and The Professor's House), as the former two are pretty roundly excellent, and the latter is decent simply because it captures a certain historical moment in time. But is O Pioneers more themeless, characterless, or plotless, given your underwhelming aftertaste?

The plot lacks compelling structure, and I felt like the story lurched from place to place without much actually happening. As always, Cather is great at creating a setting that feels like the best-drawn character, and having her characters love the land and hard work. But none of the actual people are as compelling as Nebraska... or Antonia.

[Hugh_Grant]

I'm now reading Things Fall Apart, which I would have sworn I read-- and liked-- in high school, but I remember not a thing about it, and now I'm doubting that I've read it before. I might have been confusing it with something else. I'm so unfamiliar with the cultural traditions behind the story that it takes a certain amount of research and concentration to contextual things, but so far it's a fascinating read.

Mara--whenever I teach Achebe (and other Nigerian authors), I always include historical context about the Biafran War. Not necessary, I guess, but it helps.

[Mara]

Mara--whenever I teach Achebe (and other Nigerian authors), I always include historical context about the Biafran War. Not necessary, I guess, but it helps.

I ended up doing some research that helped, but I needed it less as the novel progressed. I ended up finding it more absorbing than I expected. The book is skilled at provoking an emotional response-- mostly frustration and anger. The ending felt a little rushed, but it's still quite an achievement.

[Benny Profane]

Leaving for vacation to Israel next week. One of the most important parts of vacation is planning what book to bring. Since I'll have a long flight and no child and plenty of free time, I like to bring a long book (over 700 pages). Makes it less intimidating if I can finish it quicker than usual.

I am taking your recs...

[Mara]

Leaving for vacation to Israel next week. One of the most important parts of vacation is planning what book to bring. Since I'll have a long flight and no child and plenty of free time, I like to bring a long book (over 700 pages). Makes it less intimidating if I can finish it quicker than usual.

I am taking your recs...

I really enjoyed War and Peace last year, and my reread of The Woman in White this year, but I'm not sure how into classic period pieces you are. Tom Jones is on my all-time great list, and might be appropriate since it's very funny (good for a vacation read.) Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell is also a favorite, but I don't think you're very into magical stuff?

[Raiders]

The Illuminatus Trilogy

[D_Davis]

The Illuminatus Trilogy

Great choice.

I'll also recommend Lonesome Dove.

[Raiders]

Great choice.

It's what I am currently reading. It is wonderful stuff so far. I've seen the comparisons to Pynchon elsewhere, and that's what made me pick it up.

[Benny Profane]

I really enjoyed War and Peace last year, and my reread of The Woman in White this year, but I'm not sure how into classic period pieces you are. Tom Jones is on my all-time great list, and might be appropriate since it's very funny (good for a vacation read.) Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell is also a favorite, but I don't think you're very into magical stuff?

I read War and Peace on a similar trip, and did indeed love it. I was thinking of doing Anna Karenina on this trip. Thanks for the other recs. I am definitely into magical stuff (Marquez and Pynchon are two of my favorite authors)

[Benny Profane]

I'll also recommend Lonesome Dove.

This is actually the top candidate at the moment. It's the first of the series, right?

[Benny Profane]

The Illuminatus Trilogy

Looks very interesting conceptually but not sure I want something difficult this particular vacation.

[D_Davis]

It's what I am currently reading. It is wonderful stuff so far. I've seen the comparisons to Pynchon elsewhere, and that's what made me pick it up.

Yep. I think Benny would like it because of that.

One of the books that changed my my life as a youth. I need to read it now as an adult.

You never forget your first introduction to Robert Anton Wilson - one of the greatest minds to have ever thunk a thought.

[D_Davis]

This is actually the top candidate at the moment. It's the first of the series, right?

The "series" as it were, was written after LD (almost ten years after), and it is totally unnecessary (although I'm going to read it at some point). Chronologically speaking, LD is the 3rd book, but it was the first one written, and it most definitely stands alone.

[Irish]

Leaving for vacation to Israel next week. One of the most important parts of vacation is planning what book to bring. Since I'll have a long flight and no child and plenty of free time, I like to bring a long book (over 700 pages). Makes it less intimidating if I can finish it quicker than usual.

I am taking your recs...

The Count of Monte Cristo - Alexandre Dumas
Sexus - Henry Miller
East of Eden - Joh Steinbeck
We Tell Ourselves Stories in Order to Live - Joan Didion (collected non fiction)

Another idea is to grab something like Stephen King's The Stand or anything by Clive Barker. Big, takes the whole flight, easily replaced if lost & can be given away without worry when you're done with them mid vacation.

[D_Davis]

Another idea is to grab something like Stephen King's The Stand or anything by Clive Barker.

You might dig Barker's The Great and Secret Show, and I'll always vouch for The Stand.

[dreamdead]

Finished out Chang-rae Lee's The Surrendered. It ends up being just too over-plotted, which sometimes kills the care and grace that Lee otherwise imbues his narrative with. Several character deaths seem contrived to illustrate a thematic point rather than progress naturally from life, and those moments are obvious because Lee skirts past them a little too quickly, as if he too is embarrassed with a reliance on death as a crutch to push the narrative momentum forward. Nonetheless, the story remains affecting since the central narrative does contain characters that are nuanced. I think the bouncing between the 1930s, 50s, and 80s was probably one time period too many, but the text still kinda works.

It's just Lee's weakest of the three I've read. Hopefully his next will reign in the plot elements so that things feel more organic.

[Kurosawa Fan]

ATTN: BENNY

The Adventures and Misadventures of Maqroll by Alvaro Mutis. Perfect for your upcoming trip. I'd be floored if you didn't take to it immediately. Here's a quote to whet your appetite:

"He thought that the real tragedy of aging lay in the fact that the eternal boy still lives inside us, unaware of the passage of time. A boy whose secrets had been revealed with notable clarity when Maqroll withdrew to Aracuriare Canyon, and who claimed the prerogative of not aging, since he carried that portion of broken dreams, stubborn hopes, and mad, illusory enterprises in which time not only does not count but is, in fact, inconceivable. One day the body sends a warning and, for a moment, we awake to the evidence of our own deterioration: someone has been living our life, consuming our strength. But we immediately return to the phantom of our spotless youth, and continue to do so until the final, inevitable awakening."

[Benny Profane]

ATTN: BENNY

The Adventures and Misadventures of Maqroll by Alvaro Mutis. Perfect for your upcoming trip. I'd be floored if you didn't take to it immediately. Here's a quote to whet your appetite:

"He thought that the real tragedy of aging lay in the fact that the eternal boy still lives inside us, unaware of the passage of time. A boy whose secrets had been revealed with notable clarity when Maqroll withdrew to Aracuriare Canyon, and who claimed the prerogative of not aging, since he carried that portion of broken dreams, stubborn hopes, and mad, illusory enterprises in which time not only does not count but is, in fact, inconceivable. One day the body sends a warning and, for a moment, we awake to the evidence of our own deterioration: someone has been living our life, consuming our strength. But we immediately return to the phantom of our spotless youth, and continue to do so until the final, inevitable awakening."

Thanks man, but I already bought and started Lonesome Dove. I have added your rec to my amazon wishlist though, for safekeeping.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Thanks man, but I already bought and started Lonesome Dove. I have added your rec to my amazon wishlist though, for safekeeping.

No problem. Figured I was likely coming along too late for the vacation, but wanted to bring it to your attention for future readings.

[dreamdead]

Decided to do something short as my next book, and since a friend bought me C.S. Lewis's The Great Divorce for my birthday, I've decided to make that my next read. I'm only 20 pages in so far, but it's going well so far. I like his non-Narnia stories a lot more (though I've only read TLTWatW in that series)... both Mere Christianity and Screwtape Letters are dandy, and I'm looking forward to expanding my Lewis appreciation.

[D_Davis]

Decided to do something short as my next book, and since a friend bought me C.S. Lewis's The Great Divorce for my birthday, I've decided to make that my next read. I'm only 20 pages in so far, but it's going well so far. I like his non-Narnia stories a lot more (though I've only read TLTWatW in that series)... both Mere Christianity and Screwtape Letters are dandy, and I'm looking forward to expanding my Lewis appreciation.

The Great Divorce is fantastic. I need to read Surprised by Joy.

[Mara]

I've been reading Never Let Me Go by Kazuo Ishiguro. I read The Remains of the Day years ago and enjoyed it, and so far I like this one as well. It has a dreamy quality even while the prose itself is clear and spare, and the wandering non-linear nature of the narrator's memories is well done. If this ends up being a strong read, I may check out his other works.

[dreamdead]

I don't have deep memories of it anymore, but I remember really liking Ishiguro's When We Were Orphans when I read it back in '02/'03. I've been meaning to check out his other works for years, but my interest in American authors usually prevents me. Hopefully this next year I can begin breaking down this barrier.

[Grouchy]

Every time I read something from Bukowski I'm gobsmacked, flabbergasted again at what a great writer he really is. It's not so much that I don't know it, just that I forget it. Women is really amazing. It's a seemingly endless series of sex encounters that serves as a manifesto of Chinaski's views on life, love and relationships. This is old, jaded Chinaski the celebrated poet and not the working class Chinaski, and so the focus of his anger is more often himself than society.

Excellent work. I've now read Factotum, Hollywood and this. I plan on finishing the novels soon and moving on to the short stories.

[Irish]

Oh man, Grouch. Wait until you read Ham on Rye.

[kuehnepips]

Ishiguro's Never Let Me Go is called Alles, was wir geben mussten in German (Everything we had to give).

It made me cry like his Remains of the Day.

*passes bottle to Mara*

[Lucky]

200 pages into A Storm of Swords.

...1000 to go.

[dreamdead]

Onto Graham Greene's The Power and the Glory. I've been meaning to read something more of his since being amazed at the emotional resonance of The End of the Affair. So far it's holding its own quite well in suggesting how only small embers of faith remain for Mexicans as belief is wholesale struck by the empowered government. I'm intrigued to see what Greene does with the whiskey priest, but several of the other storylines are suggesting fascinating approaches as well.

[EvilShoe]

70 pages left in Great Apes by Will Self, and I'm struuuuuggling. Friend thought I'd get a kick out of this one, but the novelty wore off 200 pages in and now I'm just dragging my feet.

There's nothing wrong about the premise: the illogical nature of human nature when seen from a different perspective, but it seems like Self doesn't have that much to say. Don't care for the lame subplot involving a rebellion amidst the ape doctors, nor the mystery of how all this happened.

Brief Interviews with Hideous Men is next in line to read. Very excited about that one, but yeah... first this.

[dreamdead]

I really, really, enjoyed Greene's The Power and the Glory. Weighty in its focus on spirituality, and the depths to which a society will go to maintain that degree of faith, even in the face of death. Even though Greene's Catholicism was never absolute, there's something so overwhelmingly powerful about watching him try to write about value in a belief system that he himself doesn't wholly subscribe to. The whiskey priest's moment of grace when he could have continued on his journey, and his final moments in jail, were both searingly haunting. In the end, this was just as good as The End of the Affair. Might have to read Brighton Rock someday, too.

For now, it's onto Sarah's favorite novel, Forster's Howards End. How have been others' experiences reading the favorite novel of your partner/spouse?

[Sven]

How have been others' experiences reading the favorite novel of your partner/spouse?

I read My Name is Asher Lev in a day. Good stuff.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I really, really, enjoyed Greene's The Power and the Glory. Weighty in its focus on spirituality, and the depths to which a society will go to maintain that degree of faith, even in the face of death. Even though Greene's Catholicism was never absolute, there's something so overwhelmingly powerful about watching him try to write about value in a belief system that he himself doesn't wholly subscribe to. The whiskey priest's moment of grace when he could have continued on his journey, and his final moments in jail, were both searingly haunting. In the end, this was just as good as The End of the Affair. Might have to read Brighton Rock someday, too.


One of my all time favorite novels from one of my all time favorite authors. Glad you liked it so much. Completely agree about the power of his struggle with faith. It's been almost ten years since I've read it. I should make time to pick it back up again.

[Kurosawa Fan]

This Mutis novel is phenomenal. A couple more quotes:

"My reply was that, as had so often happened before in our lives and in the lives of all human beings, the answer we are searching for, the way out of blind alleys, comes to us by chance in the unsuspected and unpredictable twists and turns of time. I knew it was a flimsy consolation I was offering her, that in her infallible lucidity she was thinking that around those corners time can also present us with the unimaginable horror of its machinations and surprises. We continued our breakfast in silence. It was clear that neither of us had much more to say. All we could do was go on with our plans to leave and not stop for something whose solution escaped us, perhaps because it wasn't in us to look for it, much less to find it."

------------

"With dry eyes, without the consolation of tears, I spent long hours in a final effort to keep intact, for one last moment, those images from a past that death was beginning to devour forever. Because what death kills is not the beings who are close to us, who are our very life. What death takes away forever is their memory, the image that blurs and fades until it is lost, and that is when we begin to die too."


Those are just two passages among many I've underlined. This novel gets a STRONG recommendation for everyone here.

[Raiders]

How have been others' experiences reading the favorite novel of your partner/spouse?

My wife is a big Austen fan, so it went OK. I like her humor and wit but really, it's all a lot to do about nothing, which is both partly the point and partly the problem.

For my favorites, my wife likes King Lear though she is more of a Shakespeare comedy lover and "appreciates" Lolita and The Sound and the Fury. She hasn't read any Oe yet.

[Mara]

Never Let Me Go was really excellent. I found the whole thing absorbing and sad, and Ishiguro's prose has a clear, observant take on memory and emotion that keeps it from getting sentimental or maudlin. The nonlinear free-association style of narration works, for the most part, although I felt like he did a little storytelling trick about three times too often, and I found myself rolling my eyes-- where Kathy is halfway through telling a story, then remembers that she didn't give you the background and so explains that she has to do a quick flashback to days or weeks or years before, and then substantially later returns to her original story. The first few times, it feels natural and a nod to the way that people really do tell stories, but after awhile it felt contrived and labored.

That's a minor quibble, though. It's really a fascinating read.

I'm waiting for David Foster Wallace's The Pale King to become available at my library, so I'm doing a quick read of Brook's World War Z. I haven't read Infinite Jest yet, because I can't find it on audio and I can't find the time to read it in book format.

[ledfloyd]

hmm, infinite jest on audiobook sounds near impossible.

however, i'm not sure the pale king is a good introduction to wallace (assuming it will be yours). i could be wrong, but i felt it was more a curio for established fans. it's very incomplete, it has some wonderful bits but it drags in places and never coalesces into anything resembling a cohesive whole.

i would personally recommend picking up consider the lobster or a supposedly fun thing i'll never do again first.

[Mara]

however, i'm not sure the pale king is a good introduction to wallace (assuming it will be yours). i could be wrong, but i felt it was more a curio for established fans. it's very incomplete, it has some wonderful bits but it drags in places and never coalesces into anything resembling a cohesive whole.

I know, and I realize I'm going backwards. But it's the most readily available one I can find, and I'm going in with the expectation of incompleteness.

[ledfloyd]

I know, and I realize I'm going backwards. But it's the most readily available one I can find, and I'm going in with the expectation of incompleteness.
well, it should be interesting to see what you think going in blind.

[Lucky]

Mara, check out the film Never Let Me Go. I'd be curious to hear your opinion, I think it's underappreciated.

[Mara]

Mara, check out the film Never Let Me Go. I'd be curious to hear your opinion, I think it's underappreciated.

I was wondering if it was good. I'll probably try to get my hands on a copy.

[Lucky]

I was wondering if it was good. I'll probably try to get my hands on a copy.

I don't know if this helps you or not, but I just happened to notice this will be on HBO next Friday.

[Mara]

I don't know if this helps you or not, but I just happened to notice this will be on HBO next Friday.

I don't have HBO. But I'll see if my sister will get it from Netflix for me.

[Mara]

I'm waiting for David Foster Wallace's The Pale King to become available at my library, so I'm doing a quick read of Brook's World War Z.

This is so dull. I don't think I'll be able to finish it.

[Kurosawa Fan]

This is so dull. I don't think I'll be able to finish it.

Welcome to my club. I tossed it aside last year for that exact reason. Dull and hokey.

[EvilShoe]

This is a cool little blog showing what people are reading on the NYC subway.
http://undergroundnewyorkpubliclibrar y.com/

I must have her (http://www.flickr.com/photos/madamfou/7392091164/in/photostream/lightbox/).

[Irish]

When I was a kid, I read a lot of Piers Anthony. Good fun, but this guy is pretty much the definition of "work for hire" and "hack" (found out tonight he actually wrote a novelization of Total Recall, which itself was based on a short story by Philip K Dick).

Anyway, came across his website and a recent post -- turns out he's not only still alive at 78, married for 56 years, and still writing.

Then there's this, from a recent online "newsletter":


For men only: I am 77, going on 78, and though I do my best to take care of my health, age slowly encroaches. I'm not nineteen any more either. One symptom is ED, erectile dysfunction; I'm ready for sex, but my member rises only to half mast and doesn't last, making penetration and culmination difficult or impossible. This is frustration, as my interest remains keen; I am intensely aware of the female gender and its attributes. Yes, Viagra works, and I suspect the other leading ED dregs do too, but it costs $30 a pill. I don't like being gouged like that. I cut the pills into eighths, but even so, that's over three dollars per time. So I quit using it. I tried herbal remedies, like L-Arginine, L-Carnitine, Horny Goat Weed, Maca, and too many others to track. None of them worked, though L-Arginine may have helped. What to do? Well, in the past month I tried a different approach, a mechanical one, what I call the Penis Pump.

It goes on from there.

I think my 12 year old self needs a hug and some serious ... brain bleach or something.

[D_Davis]

The first few Xanth novels are a lot of fun (I'd vouch all the way through Ogre, Ogre as a great place to start for pop-fantasy. Those 4 (I think) along with Alan Dean Foster's Spell Singer series). Also, some of his early pulp stuff is really good - like, surprisingly good considering the hack he became. At some point he started crowd sourcing puns for the Xanth novels.

[Irish]

The first few Xanth novels are a lot of fun (I'd vouch all the way through Ogre, Ogre as a great place to start for pop-fantasy. Those 4 (I think) along with Alan Dean Foster's Spell Singer series). Also, some of his early pulp stuff is really good - like, surprisingly good considering the hack he became. At some point he started crowd sourcing puns for the Xanth novels.

Absolutely agreed. Everything up to Ogre Ogre is a lot of fun, and pretty much perfect light fantasy. A lot of his other stuff from the period was decent too, but then something really horrid happened.

I remember about a decade after I stopped reading him, I went back to Xanth for fun and .. My god was it terrible. The book had a decent premise, then meandered for 250 pages and literally had no resolution. In the last couple of pages, all the characters essentially say, "Oh well, we have plenty of time to solve that problem, so we won't worry about it for today." I threw the book away in disgust.

Maybe the success went to his head, because it looks like he stopped trying after he had multiple series on the NY Times Bestsellers list at the same time.

I've been reading back issues of his newsletter with morbid fascination. He sounds like pure crackpot, and it's a little depressing to hear him talk about how his career went to shit in the early 1990s (he blames the market, of course, not his own laziness).

[D_Davis]

I think what happened is that, at some point, he started to view writing as just a job, and rather than bowing out when he ran out of ideas, he stuck to it for a paycheck. One of my favorite current authors is Charlie Huston. He says that right now, he's an author. But he's been many things before that, and will be many things after that. When he's done writing, he's just going to get another job. Some authors never run out of ideas, while some hang on for too long. Anthony is in the later camp.

Anthony has forgotten what it means to be the artist author, and became the total pot-boiler author. His early books are packed with a ton of creative energy, which is what makes them so fun to read, energy that he can no longer tap into.

[D_Davis]

I've been reading back issues of his newsletter with morbid fascination. He sounds like pure crackpot, and it's a little depressing to hear him talk about how his career went to shit in the early 1990s (he blames the market, of course, not his own laziness).

Heh, the market. The '90s were an amazing time for paper back fiction. This is the decade that Borders and B&N were flourishing, opening up stores every where. There were a ton of super popular fantasy and SF books being sold.

[Irish]

I think what happened is that, at some point, he started to view writing as just a job, and rather than bowing out when he ran out of ideas, he stuck to it for a paycheck. One of my favorite current authors is Charlie Huston. He says that right now, he's an author. But he's been many things before that, and will be many things after that. When he's done writing, he's just going to get another job. Some authors never run out of ideas, while some hang on for too long. Anthony is in the later camp.

Anthony has forgotten what it means to be the artist author, and became the total pot-boiler author. His early books are packed with a ton of creative energy, which is what makes them so fun to read, energy that he can no longer tap into.

Yeah, agreed. I get the sense that happens to a lot of genre authors, especially mid listers. In order to make any kind of consistent living, they have to pump out 1-2 novels every year. (Anthony claims now to have written 130, with Xanth being 36 or 37 novels alone).

Charlie Huston seems to have the right idea, but I can understand someone bending to the market instead of taking a shitty day job.

Here's something funny you shouldn't actually do: Google "Piers Anthony creepy" and read the reactions from readers on message boards and in blog posts.

It's laugh out loud funny at first, but soon enough your skin will crawl. Apparently, I read a lot of his stuff when I was too young to pick up on it, but there's a repeated theme of pedophilia in his novels, and in some later stuff he explicitly describes sexual encounters between adult males and "willing" little girls.

:crazy:

[D_Davis]

It's laugh out loud funny at first, but soon enough your skin will crawl. Apparently, I read a lot of his stuff when I was too young to pick up on it, but there's a repeated theme of pedophilia in his novels, and in some later stuff he explicitly describes sexual encounters between adult males and "willing" little girls.

:crazy:

Yeah - but they're "nymphs" so it's cool! ;)

Very, very few genre authors should ever write about sex. :D

[Irish]

Yeah - but they're "nymphs" so it's cool! ;)

Very, very few genre authors should ever write about sex. :D

I caved and bought On a Pale Horse out of nostalghia. :lol:

My god, it's bad. The first thirty pages has not one but three women throwing themselves at the hero (including the ghost of Molly Malone). The protagonist then later meets Lachesis, an aspect of Fate, and one of the first things she says to him is, "You can see I am of middle age without much sex appeal." That's a direct quote. She doesn't say this for any particular reason.

/facepalm

[Mara]

It's laugh out loud funny at first, but soon enough your skin will crawl. Apparently, I read a lot of his stuff when I was too young to pick up on it, but there's a repeated theme of pedophilia in his novels, and in some later stuff he explicitly describes sexual encounters between adult males and "willing" little girls.

:crazy:

Totally. He has weird problems with women that make Phillip K. Dick look progressive and compassionate. His ideas about rape are downright bizarre. I was young when I read them, but I was still really uncomfortable.

[Irish]

Totally. He has weird problems with women that make Phillip K. Dick look progressive and compassionate. His ideas about rape are downright bizarre. I was young when I read them, but I was still really uncomfortable.

I always thought Dick was more a product of his time and generation. He could be weird and sexist (Do Androids Dream, etc), but not, well, gross in the way that Anthony or even Heinlein were (where a late female protagonist shrugs off gang rape in the first ten pages of Friday).

--

Further note on On a Pale Horse: Hero goes to a "pigskin" game, which is sorta like football except with magic, and all the players are women. Even though it has nothing to do with the plot, he describes on the on-field action for about 3-4 pages. In one sequence, the opposing side uses a spell to make all of the quarterback's clothes become invisible (she's still protected by the gear, but looks naked). Why!?

Willing to bet cash money at this point that Anthony is incapable of introducing a female character without sexualizing her in some way. I can't believe I was reading this stuff as a young teen -- and thinking it was "really good."

[Grouchy]

Last reads:

War of the Faggots by Copi, French-Argentine writer and cartoonist. Surrealist novella set in Paris (and later in the Moon) with plenty of chases, Brazilian hermaphrodites and impossible situations. It's fun but hopelessly dated in the Cold War era. There are only so many exhaustive descriptions of homosexual sex I can read without wincing, though. I don't think that's homophobia either, that's just being honest.

Martian Chronicles by Ray Bradbury. This is a re-read, in English this time. Still amazing. Only disappointment is that a chapter that I remembered very fondly ("Usher II") is missing from my edition. It's replaced by another good yarn ("The Fire Balloons") but I was really looking forward to re-reading that particular story, so bummer.

[D_Davis]

Totally. He has weird problems with women that make Phillip K. Dick look progressive and compassionate. His ideas about rape are downright bizarre. I was young when I read them, but I was still really uncomfortable.

Anthony's problems (and those of most SF writers) with women are very, very different than PKDs, and PKD made a complete 180 to make amends with The Transmigration of Timothy Archer (and in some instances in the collection of letters/essays, The Dark Haired Girl), which contains one of the greatest female POV characters in all of SF. PKD seriously struggled with issues involving trust and his own self-esteem, which seemed to unhealthily hinge upon his many failed relationships with women, while Anthony was just a total sexual perv. Anthony was going for juvenile titillation, while PKD was using his fiction to work through his own personal demons.

[ThePlashyBubbler]

This is so dull. I don't think I'll be able to finish it.

Thought you were referencing TPK for a minute and got minorly dismayed. Do tell if you end up picking that one up, quite curious how it reads as a DFW entry point.

[Mara]

Thought you were referencing TPK for a minute and got minorly dismayed. Do tell if you end up picking that one up, quite curious how it reads as a DFW entry point.

Oh, yeah, I returned World War Z after about a third of the way through. It was an interesting idea, but boring execution.

I'm about 1/16th of the way into The Pale King. (Audio books make it so easy to guess percentages.) So far it's really interesting, although it does make my mind wander while I'm listening, but wanders in interesting ways, because it provokes these serious thinks. I have to sometimes rewind or pause to get back into the story.

Right now I'm on a little story that might be self-contained about an insufferable kid names Leonard. It's hysterical.

[amberlita]

Oh, yeah, I returned World War Z after about a third of the way through. It was an interesting idea, but boring execution.


Agreed. I eventually finished the book, but I struggled for a while to get through the second half when I realized it wasn't going to get any more exciting. I have a difficult time abandoning books after I start them.

[Duncan]

Thoughts on Lethem? Bought Chronic City for $4 today, wondering if it's a good place to start.

[Benny Profane]

Thoughts on Lethem? Bought Chronic City for $4 today, wondering if it's a good place to start.

Only one I've read by him. I was lukewarm. I don't think you'll love it but you might surprise me.

[D_Davis]

Thoughts on Lethem? Bought Chronic City for $4 today, wondering if it's a good place to start.

I've read Gun With Occasional Music, and it is very good Philip K. Dick pastiche. I've also gone on to ready his essays on PKD, and I appreciate his views.

[Irish]

I've read Gun With Occasional Music, and it is very good Philip K. Dick pastiche. I've also gone on to ready his essays on PKD, and I appreciate his views.

I was gonna post about that book, but thought doing so wouldn't get to the heart of Duncan's original question. As you brought it up ... :P

Gun with Occasional Music has a great premise but no follow through. The prose is unremarkable and the story, especially considering this is genre book, lacks structure and ends up a hot mess.

This is not dissimilar to Lethem's other stuff (although I have not read the book Duncan asked after).

I appreciate that Lethem continually plugs Dick's work, gathering and editing collections, writing introductions, etc. but as a writer himself he's altogether uninteresting.

[ledfloyd]

i'm quite fond of Motherless Brooklyn and especially The Fortress of Solitude. i don't find either to be heavily indebted to Dick. You Don't Love Me Yet didn't work quite as well for me; Chronic City falls somewhere in between, but it definitely has its moments.

[Benny Profane]

Finished part II of Lonesome Dove last night. This is a special book.

[D_Davis]

Finished part II of Lonesome Dove last night. This is a special book.

Right on! I was wondering how you'd get along with it. The characters are so amazing - every single one has something special to offer.


****

I've already had my mind blown twice by J.G. Ballard in the first 20 pages of his autobiography, Miracles of Life. It really sucks that he's dead.

[D_Davis]

i'm quite fond of Motherless Brooklyn and especially The Fortress of Solitude. i don't find either to be heavily indebted to Dick. You Don't Love Me Yet didn't work quite as well for me; Chronic City falls somewhere in between, but it definitely has its moments.

I've got Motherless Brooklyn lined up to read soon.

[Benny Profane]

Right on! I was wondering how you'd get along with it. The characters are so amazing - every single one has something special to offer.



Indeed. When the Hat Creek guys come upon the Suggs bros and Jake, I realized there was only 10 pages left in part 2. I almost didn't want to read the rest, because I figured this would be a "good" time to kill a character, if that was the author's intentions. I would have been pretty devastated if anything happened to Gus or Call, or even Newt. Turns out it was just Jake that hung :) Phew. So yeah, I really love these characters. Left-field prediction: Call and Lorena end up together. Can't wait to see what happens between Dish and Lorena.

[D_Davis]

Indeed. When the Hat Creek guys come upon the Suggs bros and Jake, I realized there was only 10 pages left in part 2. I almost didn't want to read the rest, because I figured this would be a "good" time to kill a character, if that was the author's intentions. I would have been pretty devastated if anything happened to Gus or Call, or even Newt. Turns out it was just Jake that hung :) Phew. So yeah, I really love these characters. Left-field prediction: Call and Lorena end up together. Can't wait to see what happens between Dish and Lorena.

Yeah, I love all the relationships in this. It's like the best soap opera for dudes ever. :) Have you met Blue Duck yet? Lorena is an awesome character. She goes through so much. I think it really is her story.

I've got Terms of Endearment lined up to read next. McMurtry writes great female characters, and I'm looking forward to read this.

[Benny Profane]

Yeah, I love all the relationships in this. It's like the best soap opera for dudes ever. :) Have you met Blue Duck yet? Lorena is an awesome character. She goes through so much. I think it really is her story.

I've got Terms of Endearment lined up to read next. McMurtry writes great female characters, and I'm looking forward to read this.

Blue Duck is badass mofo.

[Duncan]

Thanks for the comments on Lethem. I don't think I'll make him a priority but I do eventually read everything on my shelf.

[dreamdead]

I loved, loved, loved Howards End. The wit and intelligence of the characters, combined with the various sociohistorical commentary, really made this a wonderfully layered reading experience. And Forster as narrator was an inspiration, with so many asides that continually add to the story. Not sure about Leonard dying at the end, which has the ring of a plot machination more so than it does that of a fully developed character trait, but the treatment of aesthetics and commerce is developed in a way that feels like more than a binary, even if the novel ultimately mourns the loss of aesthetes in a modern age.

I will likely either start The Stand or The Remains of the Day next. Anyone have a preference on which edition of King's novel to read? The local library only has the 1990 version, with 1153 pages. Is that the recommended version?

[Irish]

SPOILERS, you asshole. Not everyone has read that book yet.

[D_Davis]

Anyone have a preference on which edition of King's novel to read? The local library only has the 1990 version, with 1153 pages. Is that the recommended version?

Yes - read the unabridged version.

[dreamdead]

SPOILERS, you asshole. Not everyone has read that book yet.

Your magnanimous posting style is magnificent, sir. I've amended the post, though I don't regard it as a major detail. :pritch:

[Irish]

Your magnanimous posting style is magnificent, sir. I've amended the post, though I don't regard it as a major detail. :pritch:

You're right, of course. I could have been nicer about it.

But should I have been? Putting aside the admission that I take such things too seriously, the event you referenced happens at the end of the book, and it is dramatically relevant to the story. While literary fiction isn't as plot dependent as genre stuff, knowing key events beforehand can color someone's reading and change their experience.

So are you really all that surprised someone reacted badly to this? Or were just put off because it was me that was saying it? I can understand your having a disdain for me, but not so much for the other readers here that you'd shrug off the error so casually.

I suppose you felt you were justified because I was terse and vulgar. But this doesn't make you right, double-d. It just makes you as big of an asshole as you think I am.

[Mara]

Now, thanks to The Pale King, I'm going to afraid of Metro doors forever. Sheesh.

[D_Davis]

In reading J.G. Ballard's autobiography, I've noticed how so many of his important themes manifested themselves in his early childhood while growing up in the Japanese-controlled internment camp in Shanghai. Modern isolationism (Concrete Jungle), urban tribal rituals (High Rise, Running Wild), fear of the other and fascination with war (many of his short stories), bizarre group dynamics (Kingdom Come), and many others. The only thing that hasn't come to light, yet, is his preoccupation with natural disasters which informed his earliest set of novels.

It's really been hard reading this. I truly do miss Ballard. It's not like I ever met him or anything, but I always felt a very strong connection to his writing. I hate that there will never be a new Ballard story or novel. Good thing I still have stuff to read. He truly was one of the greatest thinkers and writers to have ever lived.

[dreamdead]

Knocked out Ishiguro's The Remains of the Day. It's really fascinating for how effectively Ishiguro undermines Stevens' narration, constantly poking holes in the erudite demeanor that Stevens employs and suggesting how facile he treats individuals and the British nation. I thought the scene between Stevens and his father where the father, near death, apologizes for being a bad father, and Stevens leaves almost non-chalantly, but then his lack of exposition leads to that wondrous scene of others noticing his tears was imaginatively effective. So much of this novel is about thwarted desire and knowledge, and how Stevens compresses his whole identity to such a sliver that no one else can penetrate it, nor does he truly understand when they try. A great experiment in voice and tone, but that thwarted quality almost seems too effective, too insular, for it to resonate all that long...

Next: probably not The Stand (I misunderstood the Oklahoma library system here, so I'm gonna have to find it at a local GoHastings or order it from Amazon if I want it), alas. Likely Alice Walker's The Color Purple.

[D_Davis]

Graham Greene - novels - where to start?

[Irish]

I found a lot of the appeal of Greene's novels comes from the settings.

That said: The Power and the Glory, The Quiet American, and Our Man in Havana are all good bets.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I started with The Power and the Glory and loved it. Propelled me to read more. For you, I'd say either that or The Quiet American. If you want something quick, The Tenth Man is a good example of his talents as wlel.

[Benny Profane]

I enjoyed but did not love either The Power and the Glory or The Heart of the Matter. I don't remember much about either of them.

[dreamdead]

I found The End of the Affair a remarkable powerful study of sex, faith, and war. It was the first of his I read, and I still hold it in high esteem. If you don't start there, though, The Power and the Glory is recommended.

[D_Davis]

Thanks. Sounds like I'll give The Power and the Glory a shot.

[D_Davis]

Miracles of Life, by J.G. Ballard

It is my opinion that J.G. Ballard was one of the most brilliant men to have ever lived; I have never read another author who had a better understanding of modern urban society, and time after time Ballard proved this understanding. Through his exploration of inner-space in his short s-f fiction, or his experimental work in The Atrocity Exhibition, to has more mainstream fiction like Empire of the Sun and Kingdom Come, Ballard's themes and style were vastly informed by every aspect of his life. His young years in Japanese occupied Shanghai exposed Ballard to a wealth of unique situations, often dealing with death, and his time spent as a single father after his wife died balanced his early years with what he called "miracles of life."

This is a fantastic autobiography about a fantastic man written in Ballard's no-nonsense, matter of fact, and somewhat clinical style. If you have read anything by Ballard and have enjoyed it, I highly recommend this book. If anything, it will give you a great glimpse into his life, and the meaning behind the term Ballardian.

[D_Davis]

Now for a re-read of Crash. I'm going to stick with Ballard for awhile.

[dreamdead]

I read Alice Walker's The Color Purple over the weekend. I'm really intrigued how the film handles the aspect of lesbian sexuality, as that aspect seems wholly divorced from Spielberg's element, but the book quickly shifts from a proto-Push study on language and knowledge acquisition to a search for roots in Africa, even as it engages with the varied history of Africans in their homeland. There are a few parts that veer toward a binary understanding of history and identity (black = good, white = bad) but Walker achieves a pluralistic sense enough that it never becomes overdetermined. I thought the return to family, despite being burned by family members before, was especially interesting, especially as the men in the family finally begin to move away from stereotypical identification with gender identity.

Next is The Hunger Games, which I'm already halfway through...

[D_Davis]

Crash is absolutely exhausting. Ballard packs more verve and style, and more perversion and nastiness into the first chapter than most authors will compose in their entire lives. It is poetic in its clinical dryness, and possesses the sense that each and every word was extensively labored over chosen for optimal impact.

[Grouchy]

I always thought Crash is the perfect example of something that's excellently written, but as far as enjoyment of reading a book goes, I'd give it zero points.

[D_Davis]

I always thought Crash is the perfect example of something that's excellently written, but as far as enjoyment of reading a book goes, I'd give it zero points.

I'm pretty sure that is the point. From what I know of Ballard, I don't think he meant for anyone to enjoy Crash. It's all an experiment in human psychology, in uncomfortable feelings, and in pushing the boundaries of what a reader can stomach in a "mainstream" novel. He was constantly battling against British idea of the mainstream novel, and what was acceptable. This is even more evident in The Atrocity Exhibition. However, with Empire of the Sun and The Kindness of Women, he proved that he knew the rules, as they were, and so he was able to break them.

[Mara]

It's fun to imagine The Pale King as the unwieldy, unfinishable novel that Grady Tripp is working on in Wonder Boys.

I'm still enjoying it-- even the endless tax code information. I only got really frustrated when we spent forever on the parking/traffic inadequacies of the Peoria IRS center. PLEASE MOVE ON.

He did. Finally.

[D_Davis]

I wonder if there is a novel that mentions smegma more times than Crash does? I doubt it.

I'm really glad that books don't employ the smell-o-vision technology.

[Raiders]

Anyone here read anything by Boris Vian? I have just started Heartsnatcher and it is some of the most vividly written stuff I have read.

[ledfloyd]

It's fun to imagine The Pale King as the unwieldy, unfinishable novel that Grady Tripp is working on in Wonder Boys.

I'm still enjoying it-- even the endless tax code information. I only got really frustrated when we spent forever on the parking/traffic inadequacies of the Peoria IRS center. PLEASE MOVE ON.

He did. Finally.
yeah, i still found the tax code information and the parking/traffic inadequacies engaging. i'm pretty sure i could read anything in DFW's prose and be completely spellbound. if income tax codes don't put me to sleep i assume nothing will.

[amberlita]

I've never read any DFW and it is a blight on my existence. Which would you all recommend as the jumping off point?

[Milky Joe]

Start with the non-fiction. I would pick up A Supposedly Fun Thing I'll Never Do Again and read the title essay. Then read everything else.

[Grouchy]

Finished my first Philip K. Dick book, Humpty Dumpty in Oakland. It had been a while since I loved a novel so much. Simply compulsive reading. The feeling of constant paranoia and all the colorful characters that inhabit these pages will stay with me for a while.

Now I should try a Dick novel that's actually sci-fi and that has been read by more than five persons.

[Irish]

If you liked that, try Confessions of a Crap Artist, another "real life" novel.

[D_Davis]

If you liked that, try Confessions of a Crap Artist, another "real life" novel.

Probably his best mainstream novel, although The Transmigration of Timothy Archer is pretty much mainstream as well, and it's fantastic.

[D_Davis]

Finished my first Philip K. Dick book, Humpty Dumpty in Oakland. It had been a while since I loved a novel so much. Simply compulsive reading. The feeling of constant paranoia and all the colorful characters that inhabit these pages will stay with me for a while.

Now I should try a Dick novel that's actually sci-fi and that has been read by more than five persons.

Very interesting that you chose one of his mainstream novels as your first.

[ledfloyd]

Start with the non-fiction. I would pick up A Supposedly Fun Thing I'll Never Do Again and read the title essay. Then read everything else.
this. consider the lobster isn't a bad place to start either.

[Grouchy]

Very interesting that you chose one of his mainstream novels as your first.
Heh, it wasn't really a choice, more of a case of the book finding me.

[D_Davis]

Heh, it wasn't really a choice, more of a case of the book finding me.

That's cool. You were definitely introduced to PKD in a different way than most people are.

[Milky Joe]

this. consider the lobster isn't a bad place to start either.

Yeah. I actually started with Infinite Jest but it took me a year to finish it. In that time I read the non-fiction books, starting with CtL. I just think the Cruise Ship essay is a little more universally relatable to than, say, the pornography one.

[Derek]

Yeah. I actually started with Infinite Jest but it took me a year to finish it. In that time I read the non-fiction books, starting with CtL. I just think the Cruise Ship essay is a little more universally relatable to than, say, the pornography one.

I had a friend who started with Incarnations of Burned Children simply b/c it was short even though I told her to read Good Old Neon first. She was very unhappy with me the next day...not b/c she disliked it, but b/c it disturbed her so much, she didn't sleep most of the night. Of course, my argument was uh, look at the title. So yeah, short story shorter, don't start with Incarnations of Burned Children.

Also, I'd agree Supposedly Fun Thing is a good starting point. Easily relatable (if you're neurotic) and possibly the funniest thing he ever wrote.

[ledfloyd]

the porn essay is pretty universally relatable to anyone under the age of 35 who has used the internet, i think. but both are hilarious, and pretty good starting points.

[Milky Joe]

Relevant to the porn essay:


‏@felipemiguel @Kayden_Kross hey, have you read "Big Red Son", DFW's
essay about the AVN Award and porn industry? Would love to know your
opinion about it.

@Kayden_Kross @felipemiguel The problem is his subject matter was the
mainly the darkest individual in our industry. It's not representative
of the whole.

@Kayden_Kross @felipemiguel that's not to say I didn't love it though.
It wasn't inaccurate as a case study