Room 237 (Rodney Ascher)

[Boner M]

IMDb (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2085910/reference)

http://s3.amazonaws.com/auteurs_production/post_images/9528/room237post.jpg?1327529411

[Milky Joe]

Conspiracy/Kubrick nut that I am, I found this a tad disappointing, but maybe that's because I'm already pretty familiar with all this stuff and wanted something a little more than surface level. John Fell Ryan in particular was amazingly uninsightful. His observations were inane and mostly boiled down to "whooaaa, man, isn't that, like, weird." There are far more interesting writers on this film out there that apparently turned down the chance to be interviewed (Rob Ager and Mark LeClair, for instance).

I do want to watch the forwards/backwards version of the film. That looked really cool.

[Mal]

Somewhat interesting, mostly annoying. I'd rather listen to a roundtable of elderly discuss talkies.

[number8]

This was the most appropriate movie I've ever decided to go see for the first time high to.

[EyesWideOpen]

The Shining is one of my favorite movies and Kubrick my favorite director so I have no idea how they managed to make a doc about those themes that literally put me to sleep. I found nothing even remotely thought provoking or insightful other then a few cases of continuity errors.

[Boner M]

I could've watched it for another three hours. *shrug* I think the intentions of the film are being misunderstood, or at least mis-sold. Copy & paste from my TIFF dispatch last year:


[...]Most of the theories in said doco – Rodney Ascher’s fascinating Room 237 – are not particularly productive in and of themselves. A few early ones, making claims for the film as a veiled grappling with the plight of Native Americans or the Holocaust, are surprisingly sound. More often than not, however, the participants tend toward crackpot conspiracy theorising, or using Kubrick’s self-evident and much-publicised perfectionism to treat activity and phenomena at every corner of the frame as highly-composed Rorschach blotches, finding minotaurs and erections and even Kubrick’s own face on allegedly photo-shopped clouds.

Fortunately then, that Room 237’s value isn’t as an essay-film. Ascher remains remarkably respectful to the subjective responses of his speakers, and through his democratic approach, he creates a testament to the fascination and sustenance that interpretation can have for the beholder, however problematic. In turn, we’re not being lectured to, so much as forced to examine our own personal boundaries when it comes to the kind of investigative interpretation depicted, which can be described mostly as ‘The Death of the Author’ taken to its dizzying extreme. More broadly, Room 237 has considerable appeal as a character study of a kind of highly specific, rarely encountered subset of enthusiasts; or rather, given its subjects feature as disembodied voices only, a ghost story befitting the obsession object in question.

[number8]

Is it mis-sold? Sorry if this is condescending, but I thought that much is obvious about the film? I was not aware that anyone was actually looking for a serious analysis of The Shining in this, but I guess I'm wrong on that. The buzz around the film that I was aware of during its festival run is that of a "crazy Kubrick fans tell you their awesomely bizarre crackpot theories" movie.

[Boner M]

I was not aware that anyone was actually looking for a serious analysis of The Shining in this, but I guess I'm wrong on that. The buzz around the film that I was aware of during its festival run is that of a "crazy Kubrick fans tell you their awesomely bizarre crackpot theories" movie.
Well, the replies in this thread suggest the opposite. And then there's the unfortunate trailer:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOxukprEwjg

EDITED by Bialas for proper video viewing.

[EyesWideOpen]

Is it mis-sold? Sorry if this is condescending, but I thought that much is obvious about the film? I was not aware that anyone was actually looking for a serious analysis of The Shining in this, but I guess I'm wrong on that. The buzz around the film that I was aware of during its festival run is that of a "crazy Kubrick fans tell you their awesomely bizarre crackpot theories" movie.

I never said I expected serious analysis. I did expect their crackpot theories to be interesting or "awesomely bizarre" and they were neither.

[Ezee E]

I never said I expected serious analysis. I did expect their crackpot theories to be interesting or "awesomely bizarre" and they were neither.

Yes. There's way better out on the internet. The best piece was from someone that wouldn't even be interviewed, so they paraphrased another guy talking about it. That being the strangeness of what happens when you play forward/backward at the same time.

It's certainly not missold. I expected crackpot theories, but I can google for 90 minutes and find better ones is all. The minotaur one is reaching so hard that it's just annoying, not funny at all.

The use of the maps is touching on something very fun, but they seemed to cut that short whenever it started to touch on anything.

[Pop Trash]

This was a lot of fun. I don't think the interviewees are meant to be taken at face value. I thought the filmmaker's decision to cut out them out visually and just have the running audio was inspired. I also liked that they are never called out for how inane some of their theories were (esp. the moon landing one). Essentially this is about semiotics. About how one movie can conjure up signs and meanings that may or may not be intentional (does it matter?) and how the filmmakers can then use that source material to be re-edited in a way that can magnify what they are talking about. There's a lot of Kuleshov effects here in how shot 'A' (generally from The Shining) can be cut with shot 'B' (sometimes from The Shining but often from some other film or newsreel footage) to create the new meaning 'C.'

This would make a good double feature with Oliver Stone's similarly minded JFK.

[Pop Trash]

John Fell Ryan in particular was amazingly uninsightful. His observations were inane and mostly boiled down to "whooaaa, man, isn't that, like, weird."

Was that the stoned sounding guy? Yeah, I agree they used him too much. He was a little too "uhhh yeah if you open up the door and uhhh room 237 and uhhhh huhuhuh ya know?...oh by the way I'm unemployed."

[Ivan Drago]

I do want to watch the forwards/backwards version of the film. That looked really cool.

It's playing at the indie theater near me this weekend. I'm thinking about going.

[baby doll]

I don't think the interviewees are meant to be taken at face value.I suspect that the interviewees would beg to differ.

[Grouchy]

Come on, guys, this was fucking awesome. It was a combination of genuinely sound interpretations (the guy who was a Holocaust historian pretty much convinced me and I found his "past" segment fascinating) and crackpot theories at their most outlandish such as the Minotaur or erection sightings.

But the bottom line is that it's a love letter to movie-watching and obsession about movies and I think the filmmakers should win some kind of editing award.

[baby doll]

It was a combination of genuinely sound interpretations (the guy who was a Holocaust historian pretty much convinced me and I found his "past" segment fascinating) and crackpot theories at their most outlandish such as the Minotaur or erection sightings.Really, the dude counting forty-two cars in a parking lot and multiplying 2x3x7 to get 42 convinced you? At least the Native American guy had actual onscreen signifiers to work with; the Holocaust dude just has allusions to allusions.

[Rowland]

The Shining is a MacGuffin. Quoting "Preston" from Letterboxd, "what it's really 'about' is in fact Religion (one guy says The Shining gave him "my first religious experience"), and the way belief in a godlike figure who's omniscient ("Kubrick is thinking about the implications of everything that exists") and infallible ("Continuity error? I don't think so") allows believers to tailor their beliefs into whatever they themselves need to hear," which has intriguing implications when applied to Cinephilia. On a surface level, the editing technique is highly involving, not to mention unexpectedly respectful to even the most crackpot theories, and of course I loved the use of Bava's Demons movies for stock footage.

[Grouchy]

Really, the dude counting forty-two cars in a parking lot and multiplying 2x3x7 to get 42 convinced you? At least the Native American guy had actual onscreen signifiers to work with; the Holocaust dude just has allusions to allusions.
Hahahah I'd forgotten about that!

What I mean is probably that his theory at least has some thematic relevance, whereas the "Kubrick filmed the lunar landing" part is just conspiracy theory.

[Grouchy]

The Shining is a MacGuffin. Quoting "Preston" from Letterboxd, "what it's really 'about' is in fact Religion (one guy says The Shining gave him "my first religious experience"), and the way belief in a godlike figure who's omniscient ("Kubrick is thinking about the implications of everything that exists") and infallible ("Continuity error? I don't think so") allows believers to tailor their beliefs into whatever they themselves need to hear," which has intriguing implications when applied to Cinephilia. On a surface level, the editing technique is highly involving, not to mention unexpectedly respectful to even the most crackpot theories, and of course I loved the use of Bava's Demons movies for stock footage.
Yeah, the editing is where this truly shines.

[D_Davis]

This was interesting, but poorly made. The same footage was used over and over, the interviewees were never shown, and we don't know anything about them. Without knowing about the people, we can't contextualize the theories.

The best theory - the moon landing - is covered much better on the web.

[D_Davis]

There are far more interesting writers on this film out there that apparently turned down the chance to be interviewed (Rob Ager and Mark LeClair, for instance).


Ager continues to be my favorite film analyst. His piece on 2001 is the single best piece of film analysis I've ever read.

[Ezee E]

And the Minotaur woman was just braindead.

[D_Davis]

And the Minotaur woman was just braindead.

By far the lamest of them all.

It's so weird, but The Shining seems to be in the zeitgeist right now. I started re-reading the book last week. Then I stumbled upon this movie, and I've been seeing pictures and things about the film and it's stars on various websites.

I wonder if this is some kind of mass hype machine generated to drum up sales for Dr. Sleep? ;)

[Pop Trash]

It's so weird, but The Shining seems to be in the zeitgeist right now. I started re-reading the book last week. Then I stumbled upon this movie, and I've been seeing pictures and things about the film and it's stars on various websites.

I wonder if this is some kind of mass hype machine generated to drum up sales for Dr. Sleep? ;)

Yes, but as far as I know, King still can't stand Kubrick's version.

[D_Davis]

Yes, but as far as I know, King still can't stand Kubrick's version.

I think that's true, which is understandable. He provided Kibrick with an incredible book, and Kubrick pretty much dismissed it. However, Kubrick's film is what I would consider to be a perfect adaptation, in that it is a work created be another author filtered through the eyes of another. I prefer the book, but the movie is great in its own right.

[Milky Joe]

Really, the dude counting forty-two cars in a parking lot and multiplying 2x3x7 to get 42 convinced you? At least the Native American guy had actual onscreen signifiers to work with; the Holocaust dude just has allusions to allusions.

What about the cars were not on screen?

[number8]

I think that's true, which is understandable. He provided Kibrick with an incredible book, and Kubrick pretty much dismissed it. However, Kubrick's film is what I would consider to be a perfect adaptation, in that it is a work created be another author filtered through the eyes of another. I prefer the book, but the movie is great in its own right.

Same with Starship Troopers.

[dreamdead]

Yeah, the minotaur theory seems rather forced. And some of the oddities, such as the amount of cars in the hotel, seem strained. That said, aspects of the film's commentary do come off as interestingly conceived. I do think the Indian and Holocaust aspects bear fruit, though I'd like to see more thorough engagement with the consequences of that. Too often the film presents these reading in a context-less environment, so that the full ramifications of that reading aren't dwelled upon. That's the key distinction between these readings and academic readings that would cover much of the same content.

Further, this has an odd structure in that it's simultaneously the "death of the author" and "Kubrick distilled all of humanity into this film." On some level it's mere semantics, but it clouds the ability for the text to reference itself.

Oh, and WTF is the one critic doing bashing how boring Barry Lyndon is...

[Skitch]

Oh, and WTF is the one critic doing bashing how boring Barry Lyndon is...

He's speaking the damned truth! The only thing I remember about BL is how hard it was to stay awake.

[baby doll]

The best theory - the moon landing - is covered much better on the web."Best" as in craziest? Even putting aside the issue of whether or not the moon landing was faked (because, really, who fucking gives a shit?), why would Kubrick go to all the trouble of inserting subliminal messages so well hidden that only one guy can see them?

Also, as dreamdead points out, the moon landing guy can't decide whether he knows exactly what Kubrick was thinking or whether it's just his interpretation and nobody can question it, no matter how silly (postmodernism, "Death of the author," blah blah blah). It's one thing for him to say that he was personally bored by Barry Lyndon, but for him to displace his own subjective opinion of the film on to its maker is Armond White-ish in its absurdity. Incidentally, in the Life in Pictures doc that came out after he died, Christiane Kubrick says that the film's failure at the box office was a terrific blow to the director, but then maybe she's in on the conspiracy too.

[Skitch]

... but then maybe she's in on the conspiracy too.

:lol: awesome. While I agree BL is damn boring, I have to agree with baby doll about the way the guy was making pretty grand statements about Kubrick's mindset and motivations during making it. Unless someone knew Stanley and said he was bored, I find it very hard to believe it true by someone just postulating such things by watching the movie. Also, as involved as I imagine one must be to make a period piece, and as obsessive as Kubrick was about details, I think he was too busy to be bored.

[ledfloyd]

Best part of the movie was when the guy said MOON and ROOM were the only words one could spell with the letters ROOM N, completely overlooking MORON.

[dreamdead]

Best part of the movie was when the guy said MOON and ROOM were the only words one could spell with the letters ROOM N, completely overlooking MORON.

Few posts deserve being rec'd more than this one.

[Kurosawa Fan]

This was insufferable. A complete bore. If its modus operandi was to push the viewer to investigate his/her own boundaries for interpretation, well, congrats, because this found mine very quickly. I really didn't need to sit through nearly two hours of interviews to notice that each interviewee was seeing what they wanted to see (e.g. the history expert seeing Holocaust symbolism, the mythology expert seeing minotaur imagery in a ski poster, etc.). If this film achieved anything, it was to reinforce the notion that hyper-specific interpretation is infinitely more fascinating to the interpreter than to his/her audience. The entire thing was so uninteresting that half the time I forgot what the people were trying to point out to me because my mind had wandered off in another direction. This started for me right about the time I had to listen to someone confess that their favorite disturbing joke about sexuality in the film was when a paper tray was made to look like a giant erection when Jack and the hotel manager are meeting for the first time.

[Skitch]

This was insufferable. A complete bore. If its modus operandi was to push the viewer to investigate his/her own boundaries for interpretation, well, congrats, because this found mine very quickly. I really didn't need to sit through nearly two hours of interviews to notice that each interviewee was seeing what they wanted to see (e.g. the history expert seeing Holocaust symbolism, the mythology expert seeing minotaur imagery in a ski poster, etc.). If this film achieved anything, it was to reinforce the notion that hyper-specific interpretation is infinitely more fascinating to the interpreter than to his/her audience. The entire thing was so uninteresting that half the time I forgot what the people were trying to point out to me because my mind had wandered off in another direction. This started for me right about the time I had to listen to someone confess that their favorite disturbing joke about sexuality in the film was when a paper tray was made to look like a giant erection when Jack and the hotel manager are meeting for the first time.

I finally finished this movie last night. I agree with every point you made (especially the erection tray, that was BEYOND stupid), but I did enjoy the movie. Probably not because of the actual movie, but because The Shining is such a fascinating film that I can enjoy even just listening to people talk about what they see in it (even if their thoughts are ridiculous). I think the most interesting bit was playing the film in reverse and overlapped. It's very much a Wizard of Oz/Pink Floyd oddity that I can't believe was intended, but it was interesting nonetheless. Worth a watch, but I doubt I'll be revisiting, it would be much more fun to see The Shining and have it dissected on its film-making merits more than to hear what people think it means.

[ledfloyd]

I think the most interesting bit was playing the film in reverse and overlapped. It's very much a Wizard of Oz/Pink Floyd oddity that I can't believe was intended, but it was interesting nonetheless.
That guy sounded so stoned.

[Skitch]

That guy sounded so stoned.

He HAD to be. He kept snickering to himself, talked about being an out-of-work author...I could almost smell it.

[Pop Trash]

To counter more people drinking the haterade, here's a nice DVD review from our friends at Slant:

http://www.slantmagazine.com/dvd/review/room-237

[eternity]

The subtextual analysis in the film is spectacularly hilarious at its worst and interesting but inconsequential at best. I'm not sure what the point of this even was. Sometimes a spade is just a spade?

[Rowland]

The subtextual analysis in the film is spectacularly hilarious at its worst and interesting but inconsequential at best. I'm not sure what the point of this even was. Sometimes a spade is just a spade?Ed Gonzalez over at Slant puts it well:


Rodney Ascher's visual essay is a dizzying wall of sound and visuals that simultaneously bolters and slyly subverts the sometimes batshit-crazy readings a group of off-camera interviewees have on The Shining, exposing Stanley Kubrick's classic as one of cinema's great white elephants. Despite Ascher's committed, profoundly empathetic sense of montage, collaging as he does footage from more than just Kubrick's cannon to give credence to his subjects' theories, sometimes multiple ones at once, the point of Room 237 isn't whether you think The Shining is a treatise on the genocide of Native Americans, the Holocaust, or an epic admission on Kubrick's part that he staged the Apollo 11 moon landing. And it isn't about why we continue to lose it at the movies so much as it is a portrait of an elusive, megalomaniacal artist and brilliant con man whose work remains a siren's call for the like-minded obsessive compulsive. Intentionally or not, Ascher reveals that the desperation with which people attempt to assign meaning to The Shining only corroborates Dick Hallorann's belief in the film that there's nothing in room 237 at the Overlook Hotel—except, of course, the stuff of our wildest imaginations.